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View Full Version : Horizon Air Pilots Petition NMB


Buschpilot
01-28-2010, 03:00 PM
Horizon Air Pilots Petition NMB After Nearly Four Years of Contract Talks


Experienced Pilots Want Just Compensation and Fair Work Rules

WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The International Brotherhood of Teamsters petitioned the National Mediation Board (NMB) today for their assistance in concluding negotiations between Horizon Air pilots, Horizon and parent holding company Alaska Air Group.


The pilots have been engaged in direct negotiations since the company served a Section 6 notice on the Teamsters nearly four years ago.
"Four years of negotiations is more than enough time to reach an agreement that provides just compensation and fair work rules for the most experienced and talented pilots in the regional airline industry," said Teamsters Airline Division Director Capt. David Bourne.
"We are asking the NMB to help us reach an agreement that recognizes the high level of service and commitment these pilots provide," Bourne said.


Horizon Air captains average 17 years of experience with the carrier and their average age is 47. First officers average five years of experience with Horizon Air and their average age is 32. They fly aircraft that are on the leading edge of technology compared with other regional carriers. They are regularly qualified on that equipment during recurrent and proficiency evaluations mandated and closely monitored by the Federal Aviation Administration.



"While the Alaska Air Group enjoys record profits, it has adamantly refused to share even a modest portion of those profits with the professional pilots that provide dependable daily service to the customers of Horizon Air and its sister carrier, Alaska Airlines," Bourne said. "Instead, the carrier seeks concessions from its pilots, which devalues the flight deck experience and talent that allows the company to make its profits.



"The International Brotherhood of Teamsters is committed to helping the Horizon pilots achieve a contract that fully recognizes their contribution to their carrier's success. We will fully support the Horizon pilots as they negotiate for a just contract that recognizes their career expectations, respects the commitment of their families, and makes their passengers' travel experience the best possible."



The International Brotherhood of Teamsters (http://www.teamster.org/) was founded in 1903 and represents 1.4 million hardworking men and women in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.


eaglefly
01-28-2010, 03:20 PM
Eagle ALPA essentially used that mantra a year or so ago with bag stickers to boot.

So much for orginality.

johnso29
01-28-2010, 03:35 PM
I believe Horizon TP guys are certified to hand fly SE ILS CAT III approaches using their HUDS. No offense to any RJ guys intended, but that seems a little more demanding then the SE RJ approach. ;)

Edit-Or an A320 SE approach! :p


eaglefly
01-28-2010, 03:51 PM
I believe Horizon TP guys are certified to hand fly SE ILS CAT III approaches using their HUDS. No offense to any RJ guys intended, but that seems a little more demanding then the SE RJ approach. ;)

Edit-Or an A320 SE approach! :p

I've flown a CAT III approach in a sim before using a HUD and IMO, it was easier then CAT II without.

For the record, Eagle experience levels meet or exceed Horizons and we'll be flying Cat II's soon without HUDS. That notwithstanding, Horizon has a fine group of pilots that deserve better and I hope they get it.

I just thought the IBT could be a little more imaginative then following ALPA, as following ALPA nowadays usually gets you nowhere except poorer.

johnso29
01-28-2010, 04:16 PM
I've flown a CAT III approach in a sim before using a HUD and IMO, it was easier then CAT II without.

For the record, Eagle experience levels meet or exceed Horizons and we'll be flying Cat II's soon without HUDS.

That notwithstanding, Horizon has a fine group of pilots that deserve better and I hope they get it.

I just thought the IBT could be a little more imaginative then following ALPA, as following ALPA nowadays usually gets you nowhere except poorer.

Perhaps it is easier. I don't know, because I've never done it. I have done a CAT II in a DC9 and EMB-145, both while 1200 RVR was being reported. Neither had a HUD, but then again the only glass the DC9 has is the windscreen in front of us! :p

In regards to ALPA, you are correct. :mad:

Wasn't trying to offend anyone, hope I didn't eaglyfly.:o

BTW eaglefly, are you in the CRJ700? Are you saying current ops specs require the HUD for CAT II's? Or are you in the EMB145? Do they do CAT II's? It's all curiousity on my part. At XE we were approved CAT II down to 1200 RVR in the E145, where as Pinnacle is only 1800 RVR in the CRJ-200.

Purpleanga
01-28-2010, 04:24 PM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

Shy1
01-28-2010, 05:40 PM
We are trying to move the regional pilot forward.

I do not believe any regional pilots are fairly compensated.

Splanky
01-28-2010, 05:48 PM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

It is always the grass is greener. But, from the inside of Horizon all is not well. We are short staffed to an extreme and not able to get time off. Though our pay rate is highest our work rules are bad. And because of the work rules our actual pay does not pencil out much higher than other top-tier regionals.

When I first started here I was very open to listening to our managers and thought the current pilots were just overly whiny. But, since being here a few years, wholly crap! Whole different perspective.

I do not necessarily wish for higher pay rates. However, when people keep saying industry average and that we should lower to it; isn't this just lowering the bar. A bar that says as an FO I should be getting paid poverty wages. Also, every other labor group at Alaska Air Group that has negotiated a contract in the last two years has had a pay raise. But, they apparently want the Horizon pilots to subsidize all this. And they are asking for a paycut when the air group is making a great deal of money, and in a downturn.

My wish is for improving and tightening the work rules. Mostly so that the majority of us in the Q400 aren't just getting the minimum 13 days off in a 35 day bid period. And so that we are actually able to drop legs or days every so often so that we can actually have a home life. And so that our reserve pilots aren't held hostage into their days off.

eaglefly
01-28-2010, 06:23 PM
Perhaps it is easier. I don't know, because I've never done it. I have done a CAT II in a DC9 and EMB-145, both while 1200 RVR was being reported. Neither had a HUD, but then again the only glass the DC9 has is the windscreen in front of us! :p

In regards to ALPA, you are correct. :mad:

Wasn't trying to offend anyone, hope I didn't eaglyfly.:o

BTW eaglefly, are you in the CRJ700? Are you saying current ops specs require the HUD for CAT II's? Or are you in the EMB145? Do they do CAT II's? It's all curiousity on my part. At XE we were approved CAT II down to 1200 RVR in the E145, where as Pinnacle is only 1800 RVR in the CRJ-200.

We'll be doing CAT II's soon without HUD's. We can do 1800 RVR now in most circumstances as a normal CAT I. I wish we had a full blown HUD, but the company is too stingy. For now we have to make do with VFR-only HUD's made by Rosen.

SurferLucas
01-28-2010, 06:30 PM
It is always the grass is greener. But, from the inside of Horizon all is not well. We are short staffed to an extreme and not able to get time off. Though our pay rate is highest our work rules are bad. And because of the work rules our actual pay does not pencil out much higher than other top-tier regionals.

When I first started here I was very open to listening to our managers and thought the current pilots were just overly whiny. But, since being here a few years, wholly crap! Whole different perspective.

I do not necessarily wish for higher pay rates. However, when people keep saying industry average and that we should lower to it; isn't this just lowering the bar. A bar that says as an FO I should be getting paid poverty wages. Also, every other labor group at Alaska Air Group that has negotiated a contract in the last two years has had a pay raise. But, they apparently want the Horizon pilots to subsidize all this. And they are asking for a paycut when the air group is making a great deal of money, and in a downturn.

My wish is for improving and tightening the work rules. Mostly so that the majority of us in the Q400 aren't just getting the minimum 13 days off in a 35 day bid period. And so that we are actually able to drop legs or days every so often so that we can actually have a home life. And so that our reserve pilots aren't held hostage into their days off.

+1...I always hated having PM Reserve and then Crew Scheduling changing it to AM Reserve with a 4.30 showtime instead. Then you have 8/9 leg and 14/15 hour duty days...4 day trips that had 23/24 credit hours...deadheads in the middle of a trip for no reason...4/5 hour sits during the middle of the day...2 late arrivals with a reduced rest and then 2 early mornings...

Horizon's work rules need a lot of work, and there needs to be a house cleaning in the Chief Pilot's office. GS in Seattle is awesome, the others...I'll just hold my tongue there.

The pilot's at Horizon are a great group of guys and I miss flying with them.

jayray
01-28-2010, 07:10 PM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

So are you saying they should just take a pay cut? No offense to you but are you clueless?

Splanky
01-28-2010, 07:17 PM
So are you saying they should just take a pay cut? No offense to you but are you clueless?

You never know. Horizon pilot managers have been known to troll these boards looking for victims and to spread their words of good cheer. Captain I flew with last bid even has accusations leveled against him from these wonderful people from information they baited off this board.

SurferLucas
01-28-2010, 07:35 PM
You never know. Horizon pilot managers have been known to troll these boards looking for victims and to spread their words of good cheer. Captain I flew with last bid even has accusations leveled against him from these wonderful people from information they baited off this board.

Did you fly with ZB?

121PyLut
01-28-2010, 09:37 PM
Horizon Air Pilots Petition NMB After Nearly Four Years of Contract Talks


Experienced Pilots Want Just Compensation and Fair Work Rules

WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The International Brotherhood of Teamsters petitioned the National Mediation Board (NMB) today for their assistance in concluding negotiations between Horizon Air pilots, Horizon and parent holding company Alaska Air Group.


The pilots have been engaged in direct negotiations since the company served a Section 6 notice on the Teamsters nearly four years ago.
"Four years of negotiations is more than enough time to reach an agreement that provides just compensation and fair work rules for the most experienced and talented pilots in the regional airline industry," said Teamsters Airline Division Director Capt. David Bourne.
"We are asking the NMB to help us reach an agreement that recognizes the high level of service and commitment these pilots provide," Bourne said.


Horizon Air captains average 17 years of experience with the carrier and their average age is 47. First officers average five years of experience with Horizon Air and their average age is 32. They fly aircraft that are on the leading edge of technology compared with other regional carriers. They are regularly qualified on that equipment during recurrent and proficiency evaluations mandated and closely monitored by the Federal Aviation Administration.



"While the Alaska Air Group enjoys record profits, it has adamantly refused to share even a modest portion of those profits with the professional pilots that provide dependable daily service to the customers of Horizon Air and its sister carrier, Alaska Airlines," Bourne said. "Instead, the carrier seeks concessions from its pilots, which devalues the flight deck experience and talent that allows the company to make its profits.



"The International Brotherhood of Teamsters is committed to helping the Horizon pilots achieve a contract that fully recognizes their contribution to their carrier's success. We will fully support the Horizon pilots as they negotiate for a just contract that recognizes their career expectations, respects the commitment of their families, and makes their passengers' travel experience the best possible."



The International Brotherhood of Teamsters (http://www.teamster.org/) was founded in 1903 and represents 1.4 million hardworking men and women in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.

FWIW...the bold statement above was a "reassurance" that management gave to our passengers in the wake of the Colgan accident to try to keep 'em coming...(it does seem a bit 'up-ity'). It's actually kind of embarrassing...but hey, you gotta use what you have to get what you want.

Splanky
01-28-2010, 10:08 PM
Did you fly with ZB?

Yes. And it is still ongoing for him.

Splanky
01-29-2010, 07:00 AM
I've flown a CAT III approach in a sim before using a HUD and IMO, it was easier then CAT II without.

For the record, Eagle experience levels meet or exceed Horizons and we'll be flying Cat II's soon without HUDS. That notwithstanding, Horizon has a fine group of pilots that deserve better and I hope they get it.

I just thought the IBT could be a little more imaginative then following ALPA, as following ALPA nowadays usually gets you nowhere except poorer.

I would imagine this is the same with many airplane types and with many carriers. But, just because an advanced system is easy to use in a simulated environment does not mean it ads complexity to the operation. It means we have to learn more procedures. It means we have to be tested on more too. And the system in place at Horizon for this advanced equipment is to teach it via powerpoint slides and bulletins.

It is not just flying a Cat 3 approach via a HUD. It is knowing and using the restrictions and procedures that come with it. And having to operate within the ATC system with an often faulty airplane system that fails to arm far too often.

And it isn't just CAT 3/HUD we work with. It is also RNP and now a few airplanes have FMSs set up for WAAS. It is the EFBs too, which are supposed to make things easier but is yet another system we have to know and be tested on. And all this we have to be experts on via bulletins.

By no means are we special or better than any other regional. But, to blow off the additional procedures and knowledge we are required to know is not good.

And to top it all off, our technical people are working on getting minimums lowered for us on all CAT 1 approaches to 1,200 RVR.

pagey
01-29-2010, 08:10 AM
Can someone educate me please?

With all these airlines(at least 3 that I know of) voting, wanting, threatning to strike. The next step is the NMB. Is the NMB one "national" organization? Or are they local? It seems to me if multiple airlines are all asking for generally the same thing isnt it exactly the job description of the NMB to step in and do something now? Who does the NMB answer to? are they DoT? or another dept?

How has this worked in the past with strikes? Comair, Continental and such?

EmbraerFlyer
01-29-2010, 08:25 AM
The pilot's at Horizon are a great group of guys and I miss flying with them.


Same here.

I miss "Capt Chaos." Is he still there.

Splanky
01-29-2010, 08:52 AM
Same here.

I miss "Capt Chaos." Is he still there.

He is. Still the same too :).

LavChange
01-29-2010, 09:02 AM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

We are not the highest paid. I have friends at Skywest that make more than me (lineholder, 3-4 years seniority). You cannot compare hourly rate to hourly rate and make the assumption that the guy making $40/hr has a higher salary than the guy making $35/hr. Work rules have more to do with it than hourly rate. At Horizon we have decent hourly rates but crappy (almost non-existent) work rules.

cencal83406
01-29-2010, 09:16 AM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

Regional pilots will be stuck with meager wages with this mentality. :mad:

FL410
01-29-2010, 09:23 AM
I am 100% with LavChange. A MUST is Block or better there is a 10% raise, in itself. Better reserve rules and utilization. Long call out. The AM - PM stuff needs to be changed. The reserve section is horrible and needs a facelift.

Instead of 4:1 TAFB it needs to go to 3.5:1 or even 3:1 (good luck on the 3:1) On a 80hr TAFB currently is 20 credits. If it went to 3.5 then that is nearly 23 credit. 3:1 is 26 credits. We can do better.

We can make a bunch more $$ with changing the workrules and keeping the same hourly rate. I am not for that and feel that we need a rate increase but we need to think of the whole contract and continue to set and raise the standard for the regionals.

Now the daily min needs to change and I want to go back to a 4 week bid. The 5 week sucks.

I've got my fingers crossed. What is the deal with ZB and was capt. Chaos in Q or jet?

DashTrash
01-29-2010, 09:35 AM
In addition to the above, the tech dept. is working on CAT III mins of 400/400 RVR for places like SEA where we can do 300 RVR TOs. We are no better than any other regional, just have some different operation due to where we operate. GEG, SEA, PDX can go CAT III for days, so we need to still be able to operate our airline. With WAAS we will eventually get certified for RNP approaches. Regional pilots need to improve their QOL.

check6
01-29-2010, 09:56 AM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

"Just compensation" in our case is not taking any type of paycut, from our rates to our 401K. "Fair work rules" would include improving our contract for a safer operation. Our trips are currently ugly and unsafe.

No comment about your "best regional" comment.

Blueskies21
01-29-2010, 10:37 AM
I am 100% with LavChange. A MUST is Block or better there is a 10% raise, in itself. Better reserve rules and utilization. Long call out. The AM - PM stuff needs to be changed. The reserve section is horrible and needs a facelift.

Instead of 4:1 TAFB it needs to go to 3.5:1 or even 3:1 (good luck on the 3:1) On a 80hr TAFB currently is 20 credits. If it went to 3.5 then that is nearly 23 credit. 3:1 is 26 credits. We can do better.



Now the daily min needs to change and I want to go back to a 4 week bid. The 5 week sucks.



Forgive me because I don't know much about horizon but am I understanding you don't have block or better? So you have some sort of scheduled or historical block pay?

Also I'm not sure I understand this 4:1 TAFB, I guess you've got some sort of duty rig or does this somehow tie into per diem? If it's a duty rig I guess it serves the same purpose as a min day in a typical block or better schedule...

Just trying to sort out some of that with no previous knowledge of Horizon

Splanky
01-29-2010, 10:54 AM
Forgive me because I don't know much about horizon but am I understanding you don't have block or better? So you have some sort of scheduled or historical block pay?

Also I'm not sure I understand this 4:1 TAFB, I guess you've got some sort of duty rig or does this somehow tie into per diem? If it's a duty rig I guess it serves the same purpose as a min day in a typical block or better schedule...

Just trying to sort out some of that with no previous knowledge of Horizon

We have historical block pay.

Our rigs are 4:1 TAFB, 2:1 Duty, or 1:1 block. Our scheduling managers are convinced everything should be rigged TAFB. They like to set it up so we have a bunch of soft time. Then, our chief pilot has told us he wants us to remain flexible. In other words, all the soft time is there so that line holders can be flexible and be on reserve. We have been told that if it costs the same to rig everything TAFB as does duty, or block they will keep us TAFB. Our managers actually don't want us to be home more with our families.

My preference is to change the TAFB rig as well and set a daily minimum pay that can't be 'interpreted' differently. This way, the company has the flexibility to continue with their dumb ways. But it will start costing them to do so. And it still recognizes the reality that we have many shorter legs and that sometimes trips might need to be built TAFB. But, it will force our scheduling planners to start scheduling us more efficiently.

In the Q400, the best we can hope for right now is a 15 day off line in a 35 day bid period. Many of the lines are built to the 13 days off minimum specified by our current contract.

DashTrash
01-29-2010, 10:54 AM
No block or better at QX. Block times are based on historical block. If you have a trip based on block, and you have legs cancelled, you lose pay. It will then revert to the greater of TAFB (4:1), duty time (2:1), or scheduled block. As one of the ACPs told me a couple of years ago, "we pay you for the work that you do".

EmbraerFlyer
01-29-2010, 11:33 AM
Chaos in Q or jet?

Chaos in the Q400. The funniest guy I've ever flown with at Horizon:p

flyinpigg
01-29-2010, 11:47 AM
FO's need a pay raise, with more and more FO's at 8+ years, this needs to be addressed, there are guys that have taken huge pay cuts already due to the magical shrinking airline.

Also Sched Block or Actual whichever is greater
Bid line guarantee or trip guarantee
ability to drop/add, current system is ridiculous
no or limited AM/PM swap for reserves
Limits on duty time (12hrs?)
Pilots need more control of their schedules

Just to name a few

LavChange
01-29-2010, 12:02 PM
I am 100% with LavChange. A MUST is Block or better there is a 10% raise, in itself. Better reserve rules and utilization. Long call out. The AM - PM stuff needs to be changed. The reserve section is horrible and needs a facelift.

Instead of 4:1 TAFB it needs to go to 3.5:1 or even 3:1 (good luck on the 3:1) On a 80hr TAFB currently is 20 credits. If it went to 3.5 then that is nearly 23 credit. 3:1 is 26 credits. We can do better.

We can make a bunch more $$ with changing the workrules and keeping the same hourly rate. I am not for that and feel that we need a rate increase but we need to think of the whole contract and continue to set and raise the standard for the regionals.

Now the daily min needs to change and I want to go back to a 4 week bid. The 5 week sucks.

I've got my fingers crossed. What is the deal with ZB and was capt. Chaos in Q or jet?
Very well said. One could even negotiate a "pay cut" and still come out ahead with changes in work rules....I'm just making a point here. And speaking of pay cuts, we have already taken one. If you calculate an average of 3% inflation year over year, we have already taken a 12% pay cut. This is exactly why management draws out these negotiations.

FL410
01-29-2010, 12:28 PM
See, I am not totally against swap Am-PM but it should be limited and each time we should get 1 hr above min for the bid. Personally, a TA would have been great to see what they were thinking. Vote it down then go and ask for what we wanted to change. I could never see that happening but it would have been nice as negotiations have been so secret.

For me if there is a pay raise (awesome) but no change to work rules, block or better, bettering the reserve section, there should also be something in there about the definition of "proper staffing." It will be a No vote. As stated above, there are plenty of ways to get raise and increase QOL with out gaining $30 more per hr. I also, agree that the FO pay needs a higher scale too due to 10 year FO's.

P.S. Please stop picking up open time. I hear there is alot of that going on.

Blueskies21
01-29-2010, 12:46 PM
Thanks for filling me in, I didn't realize there were many airlines still not getting block or better. I knew Mesa had historical block but I was always told Horzon had a sweetheart contract. Block or better is HUGE for pay as is cancellation pay and line/trip guarentee. Reserve sections often get little attention I think because guys figure they suffered on reserve so everyone should. I hadn't previously considered that a TAFB or Duty Rig could really be abused but I've been around the block enough to realize management can twist just about anything to their advantage.... I guess that's why a really iron clad contract is spelled out in such detail it's actually kinda ridiculous.... because it has to be. Good luck with the proffer guys.
Blueskies

eaglefly
01-29-2010, 02:46 PM
I would imagine this is the same with many airplane types and with many carriers. But, just because an advanced system is easy to use in a simulated environment does not mean it ads complexity to the operation. It means we have to learn more procedures. It means we have to be tested on more too. And the system in place at Horizon for this advanced equipment is to teach it via powerpoint slides and bulletins.

It is not just flying a Cat 3 approach via a HUD. It is knowing and using the restrictions and procedures that come with it. And having to operate within the ATC system with an often faulty airplane system that fails to arm far too often.

And it isn't just CAT 3/HUD we work with. It is also RNP and now a few airplanes have FMSs set up for WAAS. It is the EFBs too, which are supposed to make things easier but is yet another system we have to know and be tested on. And all this we have to be experts on via bulletins.

By no means are we special or better than any other regional. But, to blow off the additional procedures and knowledge we are required to know is not good.

And to top it all off, our technical people are working on getting minimums lowered for us on all CAT 1 approaches to 1,200 RVR.

It's unfortunate you allowed emotion to lead you to TOTALLY misunderstand my post.

You took it personally and you shouldn't have.

Splanky
01-29-2010, 05:03 PM
It's unfortunate you allowed emotion to lead you to TOTALLY misunderstand my post.

You took it personally and you shouldn't have.

Mostly didn't take it personally. But, you did discount the extra efforts from me and my co-workers because you flew an approach from a HUD in a sim once. And you attempted to discount one of our arguments.

I will say it again though, we are no better than any other regional or any other pilot group. But, in contract negotiations this extra stuff should be considered when the term 'industry standard' keeps getting thrown at us.

check6
01-29-2010, 08:48 PM
Reserve sections often get little attention I think because guys figure they suffered on reserve so everyone should.

Our reserve section may actually be a whole lot better than it is now, especially since our current contract has so many holes in it.

Junior FO's at QX are going on 4 years now. Junior Captain's are in the 10 year range.

Our company plans no new aircraft until 2012, with only 3 CRJ's being remarketed due to the 3 new Q400's delivered in '09.

Folks on reserve now will be on reserve for another two years at this rate.

check6
01-29-2010, 08:55 PM
I will say it again though, we are no better than any other regional or any other pilot group. But, in contract negotiations this extra stuff should be considered when the term 'industry standard' keeps getting thrown at us.

Amen brotha!

We are now the only WAAS certified airline in the world, but that wouldn't be so special if we didn't wear our uniforms properly, since we are professionals.

SurferLucas
01-29-2010, 09:03 PM
Amen brotha!

We are now the only WAAS certified airline in the world, but that wouldn't be so special if we didn't wear our uniforms properly, since we are professionals.

Hey now...don't let Lamar or Ali catch you making a mockery of what a great airline QX is and how happy the people are to be at their yobs!

Y'all would be much better and professional pilots if you wore the correct company tie and hat ALL THE TIME...those fatigue calls have nothing to do with circadian rhythm swaps or 4 hour sits in SEA before the last flight out to Bellingham...geez (that was heavy on the sarcasm)...

Any of you QX guys/former QX guys, shoot me a PM...I'd love to chat and catch up on what's going on.

ATCsaidDoWhat
01-30-2010, 05:12 AM
See, I am not totally against swap Am-PM but it should be limited and each time we should get 1 hr above min for the bid. Personally, a TA would have been great to see what they were thinking. Vote it down then go and ask for what we wanted to change. I could never see that happening but it would have been nice as negotiations have been so secret.

For me if there is a pay raise (awesome) but no change to work rules, block or better, bettering the reserve section, there should also be something in there about the definition of "proper staffing." It will be a No vote. As stated above, there are plenty of ways to get raise and increase QOL with out gaining $30 more per hr. I also, agree that the FO pay needs a higher scale too due to 10 year FO's.

P.S. Please stop picking up open time. I hear there is alot of that going on.

Voting down a TA does not necessarily guarantee you will get management to agree to come back and address the bad areas. Remember, you are already under a valid contract and they have no requirement to come back and negotiate anything. They can sit on their hands for as long as they want.

The "secrecy" of negotiations is maddening. The only thing worse is to do it publicly and have 500 pilots with 2000 opinions on one issue and if you don't embrace their idea, you are wrong and guilty of skullduggery. Management loves that, makes their job even easier.

Unity of your pilot group is the most important leverage you can give your negotiators and union right now. It worked at Amerijet and just this week at Flight Options and will work for you.

Good luck.

eaglefly
01-30-2010, 05:24 AM
Mostly didn't take it personally. But, you did discount the extra efforts from me and my co-workers because you flew an approach from a HUD in a sim once. And you attempted to discount one of our arguments.

I will say it again though, we are no better than any other regional or any other pilot group. But, in contract negotiations this extra stuff should be considered when the term 'industry standard' keeps getting thrown at us.

No, I just stated my personal opinion from flying several CAT III HUD's. YOU, then saw that as an affront to your efforts. The two had nothing to do with each other. The error was in perception.

ANY competent airline pilot can be trained to fly this maneuver safely. It is just another maneuver. That being said, your efforts and compensation should indeed be rewarded as "industry standard" is just a management excuse to limit the increase in their costs. It's nothing more than a strategic term.

Personally, you guys DO have more exposure to icing and high winds than many pilot groups and for that increased risk, I'd say you are DEFINATELY worth more then what they want to limit you with this essentially meaningless term.

Greater exposure to increased risks is a better counter than proficiency in a particular maneuver IMHO.

I am on your side.

Longboarder29
01-30-2010, 09:22 AM
Amen brotha!

We are now the only WAAS certified airline in the world, but that wouldn't be so special if we didn't wear our uniforms properly, since we are professionals.

I'm on a VLOA from SKW so I admit maybe out of the loop but I just looked at our opspecs and we are approaved to do WAAS approaches.

BTW I hope you all get some better work rules and a pay raise.:D

PCL_128
01-30-2010, 10:02 AM
With all these airlines(at least 3 that I know of) voting, wanting, threatning to strike. The next step is the NMB. Is the NMB one "national" organization? Or are they local? It seems to me if multiple airlines are all asking for generally the same thing isnt it exactly the job description of the NMB to step in and do something now? Who does the NMB answer to? are they DoT? or another dept?

The NMB is a separate government entity that is solely tasked with administering the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and overseeing collective bargaining for railroad and airline employee groups.

Here's how it works:

- When a contract becomes amendable (reaches the end of its duration period), you start negotiating directly with the company on the items that you want to change. The company can also submit items that they want to change.
- When you've stopped making progress with direct negotiations, you can ask the National Mediation Board (NMB) to assign the case to one of their professional mediators to assist in working out the remaining open contract issues. This is the stage that Horizon is starting now.
- When the NMB determines that you're at an impasse and making no further progress in mediation, they will proffer binding arbitration to both parties.
- When one of the parties rejects binding arbitration (as they always do), then the NMB begins a 30-day "cooling off" period. During this time, negotiations usually continue almost constantly in a last-ditch effort to reach a contract.
- At the end of the cooling off period, both parties are free to engage in "self help," which means the employees can strike, or the company can impose their own terms.

So, it's a lengthy process. The average time for airline labor to reach an agreement in negotiations under the RLA is about 20 months. It's been much longer during the Bush years, as his NMB was strongly anti-labor, but the new Obama NMB seems to be aiming for the traditional standard of about 1.5-2 years in negotiations.

PCL_128
01-30-2010, 10:05 AM
Though our pay rate is highest our work rules are bad.

This is typical of a Teamsters contract, unfortunately. Too much focus on pay, not nearly enough focus on work rules and other issues. That may work for truck drivers, but it doesn't work for pilots.

I understand that a group of your pilots may be looking into ALPA representation. I hope your pilots decide to go in that direction.

check6
01-30-2010, 12:52 PM
I understand that a group of your pilots may be looking into ALPA representation. I hope your pilots decide to go in that direction.

You may have just opened up a new can of worms.

check6
01-30-2010, 12:56 PM
That being said, your efforts and compensation should indeed be rewarded as "industry standard" is just a management excuse to limit the increase in their costs.

I hate to jump to conclusions, but I thought our pilot group wasn't going for any type of payrate increase. The challenge is improving our contract.

check6
01-30-2010, 01:11 PM
I'm on a VLOA from SKW so I admit maybe out of the loop but I just looked at our opspecs and we are approaved to do WAAS approaches.

BTW I hope you all get some better work rules and a pay raise.:D

Maybe so. To be honest, I could care less. I only mentioned it to further illustrate how QX guys and gals are inundated with "the next best thing" as far as technology goes.

Heck. . .even in the sim, our training department throws in an RNP approach which we weren't certified to do in the Q400 for a long time.

I still get paid the same either way.

eaglefly
01-30-2010, 01:48 PM
I hate to jump to conclusions, but I thought our pilot group wasn't going for any type of payrate increase. The challenge is improving our contract.

I have no idea what improvements to your CBA are being sought. Of course, one improvement is pay rate adjustments in an upward direction. Cost of living increases are a fact of life and to seek other "improvements" without including these would be akin to stepping on the accelerator of a car with the brake partially engaged.

Hopefully, the IBT will show more ingenuity in that effort then the motivation statement they hijacked from ALPA.

STILL GROUNDED
01-30-2010, 05:04 PM
How exactly are the highest paid regional pilots, at supposedly the best regional to work for, asking to get just compensation and fair work rules? No offense to Horizon.

Just because they are the best paid does not make them properly paid. We ALL, no matter what you are flying are not getting paid enough and the work rules no matter where you work could use some improving.

LavChange
01-31-2010, 12:01 PM
Just because they are the best paid does not make them properly paid. We ALL, no matter what you are flying are not getting paid enough and the work rules no matter where you work could use some improving.

Again, Horizon pilots are NOT the best paid. We have decent hourly rates but with nonexistent work rules.

Flyin1500
01-31-2010, 12:24 PM
Chaos in the Q400. The funniest guy I've ever flown with at Horizon:p

I thought Boom boom was the funniest (sarcasm). Best of luck to y'all!

STILL GROUNDED
01-31-2010, 12:26 PM
Again, Horizon pilots are NOT the best paid. We have decent hourly rates but with nonexistent work rules.

I was only replying to the poster. I honestly don't know what you make only that it is not enough.

ATCsaidDoWhat
01-31-2010, 01:15 PM
This is typical of a Teamsters contract, unfortunately. Too much focus on pay, not nearly enough focus on work rules and other issues. That may work for truck drivers, but it doesn't work for pilots.

I understand that a group of your pilots may be looking into ALPA representation. I hope your pilots decide to go in that direction.

EDITED FOR SECURITY.

He's only writing what he's told to by his ALPA handlers. They're running out of money, and just lost a motion for summary judgement on a 100 million dollar lawsuit last week. On top of the one for 44 million at UAL they just got hammered on. And the one the junior UAL pilots have filed for about 45 million that hasn't been ruled on yet. So they're digging for dues money to pay the bills.

Seems to me I'd be thinking twice about joining a union that is looking at having to pay out that kind of money. If they can't get that stuff right, get whacked in court and impose contracts on their own unionized employees, ya gotta wonder how good they're gonna treat you. Especially when Alaska pays a lot more in dues than Horizon will.

Who's gonna get treated better? Ask the Midwest pilots how they got cut off from funds and sold down the river. And the word is they Mesa might be a takeover target and instead of allowing them to access ALPA funds if a merger came about, told them they had to assess their members. When the members voted it down, ALPA forced it on them. Aren't ALL ALPA carriers supposed to be treated equally? DAL/NWA got huge chunks of money, why not the regionals? Sounds like Animal Farm; all animals are equal, some are more equal than others.

He keeps referring to "truck drivers" knowing they are not part of the Airline Division. The same division that just TA'd another contract this week with pay and benefit increases for the guys at Flight Options. Who also got a new contract with pay increases and job security for the mechanics at his airline. And got one for an airline that was beneath the dignity of ALPA to represent. (Amerijet) Four new contracts with improved pay, benefits and job security in four months.

But since he seems to look down on the Airline Division so much...a UPS mechanic in the Airline Division pulls in about 100K at the bottom of the list. And those nasty truck drivers he always speaks poorly of...start around 75K. UAL guys and the Airline Division recently worked out job improvements and recalls, bringing MRO work back to the SFO base from China.

Seems that under the new Airline Division leadership and negotiators; including a former MEC Chairman from UAL and a senior contract administrator illegally fired by ALPA (they lost that lawsuit too) not only know how to negotiate; they know how to get good work rules and deals.

And they also know how to work with other unions instead of trashing them.

PCL_128
01-31-2010, 03:40 PM
deleted since the original post was deleted

ATCsaidDoWhat
01-31-2010, 04:23 PM
ALPA's finances are just fine, thanks.

But since you want to talk about that sort of thing, you might want to look into the number of Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) complaints filed against the IBT. The number is truly staggering.



ALPA would be happy to work with your union....as soon as you stop raiding our properties, and as soon as you pay the AFL-CIO all the back-dues that you stiffed us.

EDITED FOR SECURITY.

Raiding...something you say is OK for ALPA, but not for anyone else. But since you brought it up...again...man up...how many properties has ALPA raided in the past year? And who is slithering around in the weeds at Horizon PROMISING scope? Your buddy John Sluys. And the guy that ALPA used at ATI to decertify IBT.

Let's remember too why they did. Because IBT refused to sign a contract that would allow ATI to whipsaw against ANY pilot group...IBT or ALPA. When they refused, Prater said he'd sign the contract.

A union president agreeing to sign a whipsaw contract that could be used against pilots at a carrier he represents! (Capitol Cargo, part of the ATSG group)

Are you telling everyone that ALPA was not found to have illegally fired unionized staff members? And did not have to offer them their jobs back with back pay and benefits? Yes or No?

And they did not lose a 44 million dollar suit filed by senior UAL pilots and retirees? Or that the judge refused their motion for summary judgement in a 100 million dollar suit filed by the TWA pilots? Yes or No?

Or that, despite the MidWest guys who got hired at Alliegant, the rest are STILL waiting for John Prater to keep his promise and "change his zip code" to MKE and help them fight to keep their jobs? Yes or No? Has he moved yet?

That's the funny thing about the press. Pilots can look and find out that since the change of leadership at Airline Division, no ULP's have been filed, improved contracts have been negotiated and signed, jobs have been protected and the raids have come from the 8th floor.

PCL_128
01-31-2010, 05:07 PM
deleted since the original post was deleted

steak pilot
01-31-2010, 05:32 PM
This is typical of a Teamsters contract, unfortunately. Too much focus on pay, not nearly enough focus on work rules and other issues. That may work for truck drivers, but it doesn't work for pilots.

I understand that a group of your pilots may be looking into ALPA representation. I hope your pilots decide to go in that direction.

We at Lakes dumped the Teamsters; poor/ non-existent representation, and embezelment. They just didnt seem to work FOR us. Everything in our last contract was worse than before. We went with the UTU, former Big Sky representation, but you guys at QX are larger than we are so ALPA may fit more appropriatley.

FL410
02-01-2010, 07:47 AM
It's going to be long cold spring, summer, fall, winter, spring, summer, fall then a new contract. Who knows, what the future holds as they are so short staffed and a check airman i ran into said they are talking about more reductions in the near future. Time will tell.

Splanky
02-01-2010, 08:39 AM
It's going to be long cold spring, summer, fall, winter, spring, summer, fall then a new contract. Who knows, what the future holds as they are so short staffed and a check airman i ran into said they are talking about more reductions in the near future. Time will tell.

Yep extremelly short staffed. Unfortunately, the managers have made their intentions known to hold the staffing levels as a bargaining chip. In the recent corner of our VP he has said (shortened) "I would like nothing more than to bring back the furloughed pilots. We must arrive at a competitive cost structure in order to do that."

mwa1
02-01-2010, 09:01 AM
ATC plz cite the suits for search challenged masses.

flyinpigg
02-02-2010, 08:57 AM
That cool brochure that Mel passes around, about ALPA aero-medical and LTD. It has convinced me to vote in ALPA so all of the senior guys will medical out and then maybe I could upgrade. But if I want a good contract and future I will steer clear of Mel and his bunch of disgruntled cronies, he is passing poison.

LavChange
02-02-2010, 04:42 PM
Yep extremelly short staffed. Unfortunately, the managers have made their intentions known to hold the staffing levels as a bargaining chip. In the recent corner of our VP he has said (shortened) "I would like nothing more than to bring back the furloughed pilots. We must arrive at a competitive cost structure in order to do that."
The same day that was posted by Gene, this came out:

Summary of ALASKA AIR GROUP INC - Yahoo! Finance (http://biz.yahoo.com/e/100201/alk8-k.html)

turbodriver
02-02-2010, 11:45 PM
Hey now...don't let Lamar or Ali catch you making a mockery of what a great airline QX is and how happy the people are to be at their yobs!

Y'all would be much better and professional pilots if you wore the correct company tie and hat ALL THE TIME...those fatigue calls have nothing to do with circadian rhythm swaps or 4 hour sits in SEA before the last flight out to Bellingham...geez (that was heavy on the sarcasm)...

Any of you QX guys/former QX guys, shoot me a PM...I'd love to chat and catch up on what's going on.

Ali is such a tool. Ever since day one. Is Lacy still there or did she get brainwashed too?

FL410
02-03-2010, 06:11 AM
Yeah she is a Captain.

ATCsaidDoWhat
02-03-2010, 06:22 AM
ATC plz cite the suits for search challenged masses.

Here's a WSJ link to their article about the UAL suit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703699204575017482173520698.html?m od=WSJ_latestheadlines

There is also a suit for an almost similar amount by junior UAL pilots.


The TWA one has a link on the Major section I think. Their suit is for 100 million and last week ALPA's motion to dismiss ("Motion for Summary Judgement") was rejected. This means that the judge feels there is sufficient cause for the suit to go forward. It also means that there is a fairly high likelihood that the suit has merit.

None of this is pretty and quite frankly is painful. You never want to see this stuff happen.

mwa1
02-03-2010, 12:23 PM
Here's a WSJ link to their article about the UAL suit.

Pilots Group to Pay $44 Million - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703699204575017482173520698.html?m od=WSJ_latestheadlines)

There is also a suit for an almost similar amount by junior UAL pilots.


The TWA one has a link on the Major section I think. Their suit is for 100 million and last week ALPA's motion to dismiss ("Motion for Summary Judgement") was rejected. This means that the judge feels there is sufficient cause for the suit to go forward. It also means that there is a fairly high likelihood that the suit has merit.

None of this is pretty and quite frankly is painful. You never want to see this stuff happen.

That is the one I thought you were referencing - read through most of it did not catch the $ amount. THX

flyinpigg
02-04-2010, 08:32 AM
Ali is such a tool. Ever since day one. Is Lacy still there or did she get brainwashed too?

That is how they brainwash them, Ali, Lacy, Andrew, none of those ACP's is senior enough to be captain, but they all are.

Why would you give that up..... and to be home every night. They will do whatever they have to, to keep that gravy train going. Wouldn't you?

I have just seen the movie Brothers with Toby Maguire, that scene with the pipe , brutal. That is what QX is doing to these three, programing them to beat the pilot group with a pipe if asked.

LavChange
02-04-2010, 10:04 AM
That is how they brainwash them, Ali, Lacy, Andrew, none of those ACP's is senior enough to be captain, but they all are.

Why would you give that up and be home every night. They will do whatever they have to, to keep that gravy train going. Wouldn't you?

No, I wouldn't. I have integrity. I would never stoop to their levels of child-like behavior. I would not promote a workplace environment that consists of fear and harassment. I would not choose to manage a group of people in unethical ways such as using blackmail, bribery and threats. For factual information look no further than the recent Gene's corner. Look no further than our CEO's recent $340,000 bonus amidst furloughs and downsizing. Look no further than my $803 paycheck after 4 years of service. Look no further than our furloughed pilots on the street trying to feed their families while the company reports record profits.

flyinpigg
02-04-2010, 10:09 AM
good! I am glad to see you have some integrity!

FL410
02-04-2010, 11:38 AM
Good News. I talked to a furloughed pilot this morning and he got hired as a janitor at a High School for $13 a hour.

LavChange
02-04-2010, 12:05 PM
Good News. I talked to a furloughed pilot this morning and he got hired as a janitor at a High School for $13 a hour.
So he's making more than if he worked reserve at Horizon. Most likely with better benefits too.

FL410
02-04-2010, 01:39 PM
For him it's the 18 yr old seniors. ;)

SurferLucas
02-08-2010, 03:53 PM
Oh great day...Horizon is only going to furlough 7 pilots instead of 12...what a slap in the face

:mad:

EmbraerFlyer
02-08-2010, 04:15 PM
Oh great day...Horizon is only going to furlough 7 pilots instead of 12...what a slap in the face

:mad:

What class does that go back to now?

SurferLucas
02-08-2010, 04:27 PM
Last I looked it was around Oct 2006...goes nicely with this little gem from Gene:

As we proceed into this next phase, one thing that will not change is our commitment to the process of obtaining a new agreement that will position our company, including our pilots, for future growth and success. I would like nothing more than to bring our 96 furloughed pilots back to work and get our 56 downgraded captains back into the left seat. To be able to do that and avoid any further erosion, we must find a way to arrive at a competitive cost structure.

FL410
02-17-2010, 01:25 PM
The ALPA movement is starting gain some strenghth at QX.

I got this from someone so I am not sure how accurate it is, but this was the last offer from mgmt:

BAD
5% paycut CA/FO
40% 401K reduction
line holder from min 92 credits to 85

Good
Major QOL changes

50/50
Going from probit sharing to PBP (performance based pay). I am for PBP, so I hope they decide to go that direction.


If anyone has more info to add that would be great.

SurferLucas
02-17-2010, 03:55 PM
This reduction from 92 to 85 hours, is that still based upon a 35 day Bid Cycle?

If so, that's just terrible and doesn't need to happen, esp with them wanting a 5% pay reduction on top of that.

I'm guessing that would drop reserve guarantee from 86.3 to 79.3?

So first year pay would be $28.56 with a 5% reduction = $27.20/hour. With a line first year (which wouldn't happen), you'd make $2312/bid and make $24,044.80 before taxes.

That is terrible! Don't give in and give'em hell!

FL410
02-18-2010, 06:28 AM
They want to keep it a 35 day bid. Personally, I hate it. I like the 30 day bids, it makes everything easier.

ATCsaidDoWhat
02-18-2010, 07:28 AM
The ALPA movement is starting gain some strenghth at QX.

I got this from someone so I am not sure how accurate it is, but this was the last offer from mgmt:

BAD
5% paycut CA/FO
40% 401K reduction
line holder from min 92 credits to 85

Good
Major QOL changes

50/50
Going from probit sharing to PBP (performance based pay). I am for PBP, so I hope they decide to go that direction.


If anyone has more info to add that would be great.

And based on that, your leadership told management to pound sand and filed for Federal mediation. Good for them!

What's ALPA promising? They'll get you scope? How's that working for the other ALPA carriers?

A big "War Chest?" Ask them how much it's underfunded and how much is already pledged out...and how much is left.

Ask them who will have a bigger voice...and get their way...Alaska or you
(you ought to be able to figure this out pretty quick by looking at others)

Ask them how many pilot groups have filed lawsuits against them for poor representation. And if their own unionized staff has filed against them...and won.

And then ask yourself if paying more dues to them and getting less back is worth getting sold down the river by them to benefit the Alaska pilots.

FL410
02-18-2010, 07:39 AM
And based on that, your leadership told management to pound sand and filed for Federal mediation. Good for them!

What's ALPA promising? They'll get you scope? How's that working for the other ALPA carriers?

A big "War Chest?" Ask them how much it's underfunded and how much is already pledged out...and how much is left.

Ask them who will have a bigger voice...and get their way...Alaska or you
(you ought to be able to figure this out pretty quick by looking at others)

Ask them how many pilot groups have filed lawsuits against them for poor representation. And if their own unionized staff has filed against them...and won.

And then ask yourself if paying more dues to them and getting less back is worth getting sold down the river by them to benefit the Alaska pilots.


Ok, I will bite. I don't know enough about ALPA/Teamstes. Yet ALPA doesn't charge first year union dues unlike teamsters. I have to say that Teamsters have not impressed me. Exapmle: After one month of furlough I got a email asking me for $$$. That was not cool. Personally, I don't care who represents us as long as they are working for the QX pilot group.

flyinpigg
02-18-2010, 08:02 AM
50/50
Going from probit sharing to PBP (performance based pay). I am for PBP, so I hope they decide to go that direction.




Yes obviously PBP is better than profit sharing, but management wants PBP to replace some of your wages. They want to pay you less an hour and make up for it with this variable pay scheme. PBP may or may not pay out, but the pay cut is for real. PBP should be payment for a job well done, a bonus, not a replacement for wages.

Splanky
02-18-2010, 08:20 AM
The ALPA movement is starting gain some strenghth at QX.

I got this from someone so I am not sure how accurate it is, but this was the last offer from mgmt:

BAD
5% paycut CA/FO
40% 401K reduction
line holder from min 92 credits to 85

Good
Major QOL changes

50/50
Going from probit sharing to PBP (performance based pay). I am for PBP, so I hope they decide to go that direction.


If anyone has more info to add that would be great.

I have mixed emotions on this. The cuts they are proposing are way too much. I will not vote yes on a contract including this many cuts. On the other side the QOL improvements are desperately needed. I do realize though that our managers are likely making our QOL bad to try and get us to agree to these bogus cuts.

I am all for performance based pay. I have some reservations with their scheme though.
1) Transparency. Our managers have proven they are adapt at and willing to twist information. Unless we have full access to any information that could affect our performance pay I am not for it.
2) I personally cannot control my performance pay on an individual level. I realize there is not practical way of doing this for pilots.
3) Within an organization where safety is crucial there needs to be a point where every person doesn't have personal financial incentive to push the flight out. The buck needs to stop at some point so that we aren't all rushing and aren't all willing to push regulations/safety. I think that needs to stop at mechanics and pilots, and that neither group should have personal incentive for getting the flight out regardless (other than a job well done).

Splanky
02-18-2010, 08:25 AM
And as for ALPA I have had to call our local teamsters office in Texas a couple times. They have been nothing but mean and rude to me. They seem to have the attitude that it is my privilege to be sending them dues. For this reason, I am happy to listen to what the ALPA people have to say. I can't say if I would be willing to switch; just that I will listen.

ATCsaidDoWhat
02-18-2010, 11:54 AM
And as for ALPA I have had to call our local teamsters office in Texas a couple times. They have been nothing but mean and rude to me. They seem to have the attitude that it is my privilege to be sending them dues. For this reason, I am happy to listen to what the ALPA people have to say. I can't say if I would be willing to switch; just that I will listen.

There's no excuse for any union to be rude to it's members, period. In no way am I implying you may have been; there's no reason for a union member to be rude to the worker bees on the other end of the line and vice versa...again, not infering or implying you were, but I have known some guys who have been complete jerks.

Don't know when you last called the Houston office, but they moved and consolidated with Local 1224 in Ohio. The Locals remain seperate, just combined the operations to save cost. And with Sowell gone, there's no need to have the office where he wanted it and they paid through the nose to make him happy.

You are doing the right thing. Ask questions. Don't just accept the answer, verify it. After all, they want even more of your money than you pay now.

Ask the guy from ATI that ALPA is parading around it's OK to sign a concessionary contract to get someone else's 767's and flying. (He did)When IBT said they would not sign a contract that whipsawed pilot groups, he went to ALPA, who said they'd sign it. If they'll do that, what will they do to Horizon when Alaska...or someone else...wants something that will cost your jobs?

And ask yourself why the very people who actively aided Sowell in taking over $250,000.00 in union dues from Local 747 that were supposed to be there to support you...are now behind the move to change unions.

Ask the hard questions. And then decide whether you are better off with the guys in flashy suits who come in and buy you top shelf hooch, tell you what you want to hear and promise you the world; or the guys who may not tell you what you want to hear, but tell you the truth and won't quit working for you.

flyinpigg
03-04-2010, 06:11 PM
Here is the bio of the mediator assigned to Horizon Marvin Sandrin (http://www.nmb.gov/directory/sandrin-bio.html).

http://www.nmb.gov/activ-rpts/odarch.html Click 02-12-10

FL410
03-05-2010, 12:19 PM
Any other info would be great Pigg. Thanks. Seems that he has been around the block.