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View Full Version : FDX Inevitable Sub Question


fedupbusdriver
01-29-2010, 09:18 AM
My trip today is cnx and I am in sub with a window of now until Sunday noon. I have accepted an afternoon trip tomorrow that is scheduled to return noon Sunday. Here is the question. If the trip on Sat cancels, do I start a new sub window for that trip, or revert back to my original window, of which the availability period for assignment would have long since passed?


2cylinderdriver
01-29-2010, 11:18 AM
My trip today is cnx and I am in sub with a window of now until Sunday noon. I have accepted an afternoon trip tomorrow that is scheduled to return noon Sunday. Here is the question. If the trip on Sat cancels, do I start a new sub window for that trip, or revert back to my original window, of which the availability period for assignment would have long since passed?

Best place to start is open you 2010 ALPA Calendar to the contract pages and go through the sub wiring diagram. It matters how long your window is (>72 TAFB etc) among many other items. If that fails to help you, post details here and call the Union for more help is my suggestion.

fedupbusdriver
01-29-2010, 03:43 PM
I had already looked at the union decision tree, as well as the contract. It doesn't address your sub trip being cnx. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.


hyperone
01-29-2010, 04:22 PM
My trip today is cnx and I am in sub with a window of now until Sunday noon. I have accepted an afternoon trip tomorrow that is scheduled to return noon Sunday. Here is the question. If the trip on Sat cancels, do I start a new sub window for that trip, or revert back to my original window, of which the availability period for assignment would have long since passed?

I think this is the relevant section of the contract for your situation:

25.H.10b. Acceptance or Rejection of Reassignment Trip Offer
i. If a pilot accepts a reassignment trip he shall earn the higher of trip guarantee for the original trip(s) or trip guarantee for the reassignment trip, calculated as described in Section 4.M.1. (Reassignment Trip Pay). That pilot shall be released from all substitution obligations relating to his original trip.

So, it would seem to me, that once you accept a Sub trip, you become responsible for the new trip only. So, if that trip is then cancelled, your new sub window would only be for the new trip's footprint. My best wag.:cool:

tennesseeflyboy
01-29-2010, 07:07 PM
This is a perfect example of why LANGUAGE INTENT needs to be a big part of getting our next contract, our contract is CONVOLUTED and INEXPLICABLY LOST in meaning and "intent" .......................

warthog
01-30-2010, 08:17 AM
here's a good one...
We got diverted from our RTB MEM leg to go to SHV to pick up freight. Due to the standard goat-rope in MEM, we were delayed post block out with a continual sliding departure time. Upshot was we went over 8 in 24 before block-in at MEM, so were dropped from the next trip and put in SUB (where they couldn't use us..8 in 24). Original trip pay for the diverted trip was 6:16, revised to 6:44 for the divert. Actual block ended up 8:25. So when I notice that I got NOTHING for the additional block time I emailed crew pay who told me that all I was entitled to was the original guarantee for the diverted trip and the pay for the trip that was dropped. So I worked extra for the man for nuthin...this ain't the first time I have been hosed by trying to hep' out. But it will be the last.

FDXLAG
01-30-2010, 09:24 AM
Isn't there a deal where you make more by refusing sub and taking overage. I am not an expert on this perhaps someone with practical experience can fill us in. Probably the weekend for it.

Bitme
01-30-2010, 11:35 AM
here's a good one...
We got diverted from our RTB MEM leg to go to SHV to pick up freight. Due to the standard goat-rope in MEM, we were delayed post block out with a continual sliding departure time. Upshot was we went over 8 in 24 before block-in at MEM, so were dropped from the next trip and put in SUB (where they couldn't use us..8 in 24). Original trip pay for the diverted trip was 6:16, revised to 6:44 for the divert. Actual block ended up 8:25. So when I notice that I got NOTHING for the additional block time I emailed crew pay who told me that all I was entitled to was the original guarantee for the diverted trip and the pay for the trip that was dropped. So I worked extra for the man for nuthin...this ain't the first time I have been hosed by trying to hep' out. But it will be the last.

I think you need to put in a pay log and fight this one. If DT won't do anything then take it to the EEOC.

Busboy
01-30-2010, 12:11 PM
I think you need to put in a pay log and fight this one. If DT won't do anything then take it to the EEOC.


YAH!!! The EEOC should hear about this!! He got paid for a trip he didn't have to fly!!! I should get paid for that trip too!!:rolleyes:

kronan
01-30-2010, 02:57 PM
The overage can work out if you decline sub and elect OTP, depending on your situation, there are various time limits to making that choice. In your situation, sounds like you should have had until your duty ended after blocking in with 8/24 problems triggering the sub and generating the notice for you.

Seems goofy that your trip didn't pay higher than guarantee. Did your trip operate so late that the flight hours were past the show time of the trip you were subbed for?

IMO, I tend to go for the overage for long extensions of a trip by electing OTP which makes me eligible for the 150% overage pay. For a short extension, staying in SUB is the best choice. Unless of course you just want to go home early and try and find a better OTP trip sometime in the next 60-90 days.

AFW_MD11
01-31-2010, 07:22 AM
I think this is the relevant section of the contract for your situation:

25.H.10b. Acceptance or Rejection of Reassignment Trip Offer
i. If a pilot accepts a reassignment trip he shall earn the higher of trip guarantee for the original trip(s) or trip guarantee for the reassignment trip, calculated as described in Section 4.M.1. (Reassignment Trip Pay). That pilot shall be released from all substitution obligations relating to his original trip.

So, it would seem to me, that once you accept a Sub trip, you become responsible for the new trip only. So, if that trip is then cancelled, your new sub window would only be for the new trip's footprint. My best wag.:cool:

Isn't there a difference between a regular ol' SUBSTITUTION assignment and a REASSIGNMENT trip?

this section you quote is talking about a REASSIGNMENT trip (not a SUB assignment)

or are they the same thing? 'cause I'm thinkin' they're not.

MX727
01-31-2010, 08:37 AM
Not the same thing. If you take the RAT, that becomes your new trip and if it changes or goes away, your sub eligibility is figured from the RAT.

AFW_MD11
01-31-2010, 09:04 AM
Best place to start is open you 2010 ALPA Calendar to the contract pages and go through the sub wiring diagram. It matters how long your window is (>72 TAFB etc) among many other items. If that fails to help you, post details here and call the Union for more help is my suggestion.

Isn't there a difference between a regular ol' SUBSTITUTION assignment and a REASSIGNMENT trip?

this section you quote is talking about a REASSIGNMENT trip (not a SUB assignment)

or are they the same thing? 'cause I'm thinkin' they're not.

Not the same thing. If you take the RAT, that becomes your new trip and if it changes or goes away, your sub eligibility is figured from the RAT.

That's what I thought - RAT not the same as SUB trip assignment.

The ALPA calendar flow chart is a little misleading as the first block question is "was a RAT offered in the initial assignment period?"

leads one to believe it's the same question as "was a SUB trip assigned in the initial assignment period?" - that question doesn't come til a little further down the decision tree (in the ALPA calendar)

just sayin'....don't confuse RAT with SUB - not the same!

hyperone
01-31-2010, 10:50 AM
That's what I thought - RAT not the same as SUB trip assignment.

The ALPA calendar flow chart is a little misleading as the first block question is "was a RAT offered in the initial assignment period?"

leads one to believe it's the same question as "was a SUB trip assigned in the initial assignment period?" - that question doesn't come til a little further down the decision tree (in the ALPA calendar)

just sayin'....don't confuse RAT with SUB - not the same!

Yep, you're entirely right. Got the two sections confused. It doesn't appear Fedup's question is addressed in the CBA. Just another hole that needs to be filled.

kronan
01-31-2010, 10:58 AM
That's what I thought - RAT not the same as SUB trip assignment.

The ALPA calendar flow chart is a little misleading as the first block question is "was a RAT offered in the initial assignment period?"

leads one to believe it's the same question as "was a SUB trip assigned in the initial assignment period?" - that question doesn't come til a little further down the decision tree (in the ALPA calendar)

just sayin'....don't confuse RAT with SUB - not the same!

And don't forget that a RAT trips pays 125% (assuming the RAT trip is same base pay as the trip that went away)

AFW_MD11
01-31-2010, 11:43 AM
And don't forget that a RAT trips pays 125% (assuming the RAT trip is same base pay as the trip that went away)

as is OTP paid at 125%

vs. SUB assignment at straight time (100%)

fedupbusdriver
01-31-2010, 12:36 PM
Well, all of this cipherin and figurin was for naught, as Jethro Bodine would say. Sub trip actually flew, but it would be a tricky situation.

Lifizgud
02-02-2010, 04:16 AM
Did you start off the trip off of reserve? That changes a lot!

MaxKts
02-02-2010, 07:43 AM
Did you start off the trip off of reserve? That changes a lot!


He is asking about SUB - you don't get SUB or RAT while on RES. If the trip is canceled you just go back into RES :cool:

Lifizgud
02-02-2010, 07:59 AM
That's my point - you don't get anything but boofoo'd if you get the trip off of reserve, you're just meat!:eek:

ol'tigerguy
02-02-2010, 08:51 AM
Just got a 58 hr trip dropped and put into sub on 18feb10. Do I get any of my original dhd bank? ALPA calender doesn't cover that part.

Lindy
02-02-2010, 09:45 AM
Yes, you keep your bank.

Now the choice is elect sub or OTP

AFW_MD11
02-02-2010, 09:56 AM
Just got a 58 hr trip dropped and put into sub on 18feb10. Do I get any of my original dhd bank? ALPA calender doesn't cover that part.

if the company cancels a trip with a DH (or cancels a DH within a trip) your bank monies stay intact - ie. you keep the DH bank money (it's in the contract, not the calendar)