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View Full Version : FDX-Draft Prostitute


Time Off
02-02-2010, 03:15 PM
Just turned down another draft for MEM 300 F/O seat, and the SAME chick picked it up again:mad: To make matters worse, she is the most senior Airbus F/O on the property. If she needs the money that bad, why doesn't she just upgrade? She's more senior than half the Captains.:confused:

Trips: 4879/ 5 Jan and 4154/ 2 Feb MEM A300 FO


fedupbusdriver
02-02-2010, 03:17 PM
If she is a draft prostitute, does that mean she is charging 1.5 the normal price for her services? Got a pic?:D

FedExBusBoy
02-02-2010, 03:38 PM
I thought we were fat on Bus F/O's :rolleyes:


golfandfly
02-02-2010, 03:46 PM
Is that fat or phat?

Popeye
02-02-2010, 04:20 PM
She's a rookie next to 727 F/O Siba man.

DLax85
02-02-2010, 04:38 PM
Just turned down another draft for MEM 300 F/O seat, and the SAME chick picked it up again:mad: To make matters worse, she is the most senior Airbus F/O on the property. If she needs the money that bad, why doesn't she just upgrade? She's more senior than half the Captains.:confused:

Trips: 4879/ 5 Jan and 4154/ 2 Feb MEM A300 FO

Looks like all double DH west coast trips....and she lives in SFO.

They are extending 4A2B....and saving a ton on bank too!

DLax85
02-02-2010, 04:39 PM
She's a rookie next to 727 F/O Siba man.

Which SIBA trips?

frozenboxhauler
02-02-2010, 04:42 PM
Just turned down another draft for MEM 300 F/O seat, and the SAME chick picked it up again:mad: To make matters worse, she is the most senior Airbus F/O on the property. If she needs the money that bad, why doesn't she just upgrade? She's more senior than half the Captains.:confused:

Trips: 4879/ 5 Jan and 4154/ 2 Feb MEM A300 FO

Easy, no more underwear royalties.;)
fbh

Kooky
02-02-2010, 04:55 PM
Find someone who knows her and have them give her call. When negotiations start we cant tolerate this B.S.

Time Off
02-02-2010, 05:04 PM
Easy, no more underwear royalties.;)
fbh

I see you know her. Wouldn't happen to have a copy of those adds to post?:D

Popeye
02-02-2010, 05:31 PM
Which SIBA trips?

The SIBA trips are normal with c/o. But since we entered 4A2B, he's averaged at or over 100 CH a month with any draft or volunteer he can get. Times 2 in December, at least.

Guesses on the over/under for Feb?

iarapilot
02-02-2010, 07:37 PM
Wow, she is senior. She doesnt block her calender, and for the past year she hasnt been working more than some I am aware of. Not that that makes her actions any more palatable.

42GO
02-02-2010, 11:00 PM
While I agree, this doesn't help get us back to normal lines, you guys need to find another cause. You are going to die young from anger.

FDX28
02-03-2010, 05:07 AM
If she needs the money that bad, why doesn't she just upgrade?

Maybe she's attempted to upgrade. We do have some F/O's that can't make the cut..


-Just to clarify - I'm not stating that she attempted to upgrade and didn't make it. She may be in her seat by her own choice. But we do have F/o's who cannot upgrade.

FDXLAG
02-03-2010, 05:20 AM
While I agree, this doesn't help get us back to normal lines, you guys need to find another cause. You are going to die young from anger.

You need to release your hostility towards the gentlemen releasing their hostility. Seriously you will live longer.

How someone spends their time does not have an impact on you does it? Examples of others overflying helps to keep the issue at the forefront. Hopefully the issue can remain active throughout contract negotiations and ratification. Section 4A2b needs to be fixed.

FedExBusBoy
02-03-2010, 05:29 AM
//////////Nevermind

A7AV8OR
02-03-2010, 07:33 AM
I can tell you that she upgraded to 727 Capt in 1992. I was pro instr in training checking out in the back seat. At that time, she was highly competent, fearless and a pleasure to be around. Just sayin'.

Time Off
02-03-2010, 07:49 AM
So, I guess since she's such a great girl it's ok to keep padding her schedule with draft?? Well, they always call me first- so I'll just start saying yes. No need to ever go to MEM when I can fly DDH's on the West Coast at 150%.

Popeye
02-03-2010, 08:29 AM
Let me offer an apology if my prior comments incited any anger or hate. Lag saw the value an intent I attempted to bring to light, that if we don't acknowledge the very actions that are prolonging our 4A2B problem, we will never get out of it.

These folks, and I suspect they represent less than 1% of our crew force, are single handedly keeping us here. If they are doing so intentionally, then they deserve our angst. If they are simply misguided, then let them hear the opinions of their fellow professional brethren and reconsider the unintended consequences of their actions.

Open Mind
02-03-2010, 11:28 AM
So, I guess since she's such a great girl it's ok to keep padding her schedule with draft?? Well, they always call me first- so I'll just start saying yes. No need to ever go to MEM when I can fly DDH's on the West Coast at 150%.
Yes, its ok for pilots to make different choices than you!! We owe each other professional courtesy not blind obedience. I find your initial post offensive. It comes across like petty jealousy. Its a lot of fuss for 2 short trips. Why the focus on the seniority and gender of the pilot?? Neither are a factor for a draft assignment. Lastly, it always appears cowardly, in my opinion, to hide behind an anonymous post while identifying and accusing others.

Deuce130
02-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Yes, its ok for pilots to make different choices than you!! We owe each other professional courtesy not blind obedience. I find your initial post offensive. It comes across like petty jealousy. Its a lot of fuss for 2 short trips. Why the focus on the seniority and gender of the pilot?? Neither are a factor for a draft assignment. Lastly, it always appears cowardly, in my opinion, to hide behind an anonymous post while identifying and accusing others.

It's not OK when their decisions hurt the rest of us. Where is the professional courtesy of the draft hogs? "Petty jealousy" is when you complain about someone's harley or airplane, not when you rightly criticize those who are aiding the company in robbing us of our rightful wages.

navigatro
02-03-2010, 11:43 AM
but is she hot????

Captain Crunch
02-03-2010, 11:45 AM
Maybe she has to pay alimony to an ex husband :eek:
Not that I'm condoning prostitution.;)

MEMFO4Ever
02-03-2010, 12:54 PM
It's not OK when their decisions hurt the rest of us. Where is the professional courtesy of the draft hogs? "Petty jealousy" is when you complain about someone's harley or airplane, not when you rightly criticize those who are aiding the company in robbing us of our rightful wages.

Hate to break it to you, but the company did this. The company will decide if or when to restore our wages unless they are compelled to do it by an arbitrator or judge (fat chance, IMO we are going to lose this one). Blaming other pilots for the continued actions of the company applying a poorly worded, wholly unnecessary section of the contract is fundamentally flawed and only serves to strengthen the company's insolence.

Do you honestly believe that there is so much draft that merely declining it would put our BLG's back up their contractual minimums? May as well believe in the Easter Bunny or Compassionate Conservatism.

Fishfreighter
02-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Is she doing anything outside the boundaries of the contract? Does she pick up the time legally? Does she violate any FARs to do it?

If the answer is no, then she appears to be using the contract to her benefit as her seniority allows.

FDXLAG
02-03-2010, 01:25 PM
Is she doing anything outside the boundaries of the contract? Does she pick up the time legally? Does she violate any FARs to do it?

If the answer is no, then she appears to be using the contract to her benefit as her seniority allows.

The same can be and is said of DP flyers. Are the pilots pointing out her schedule doing anything morally wrong. Just because you don't like what they are saying does not mean they can't say it.

Hate to break it to you, but the company did this. The company will decide if or when to restore our wages unless they are compelled to do it by an arbitrator or judge (fat chance, IMO we are going to lose this one). Blaming other pilots for the continued actions of the company applying a poorly worded, wholly unnecessary section of the contract is fundamentally flawed and only serves to strengthen the company's insolence.

Do you honestly believe that there is so much draft that merely declining it would put our BLG's back up their contractual minimums? May as well believe in the Easter Bunny or Compassionate Conservatism.

See above. I honestly believe that the company is using draft to allow themselves to man reserves at a lower than historic level. This allows them to continue in 4A2b. So yes the draft flying is contributing to 4A2b continuance. Conservatism is compassionate; limousine liberalism is not.

FedExBusBoy
02-03-2010, 01:49 PM
Is she doing anything outside the boundaries of the contract? Does she pick up the time legally? Does she violate any FARs to do it?

If the answer is no, then she appears to be using the contract to her benefit as her seniority allows.

It seems as if stockholm syndrome is taking over .........

Get a grip folks!!

kwri10s
02-03-2010, 02:29 PM
Do you honestly believe that there is so much draft that merely declining it would put our BLG's back up their contractual minimums? .

Well just me watching, counting and doing simple math for the 11. There was 3553 CH of Carryover in both seats for Feb. There was 3400 CH of time available immediately at open time viewing (Charters, X-parings, trips not in built in lines, etc before conflict window opened). And since the release of open time there has been an additional 1200 CH of trips x-pairings dropped in. (These are just trips I have seen, we did have a WX event though). With 843 people getting lines for Feb. That means spread evenly, roughly 10CH per person extra for Feb. Without CO, x-pairs, and trips not built in bid pack each line holder would have been apx 76CH for Feb.

I feel fairly sure that I am missing seeing a bunch of the x-pairings that fall into open time. Going by the X pairing number they had over 500 x-parings in Jan and we're already over 200 for Feb. Don't know how many were filled by draft/Vol but that's a lot of flying time falling through the crack pipe. Not even looking at the reserve usage/line build fiasco.

Deuce130
02-03-2010, 05:33 PM
Hate to break it to you, but the company did this. The company will decide if or when to restore our wages unless they are compelled to do it by an arbitrator or judge (fat chance, IMO we are going to lose this one). Blaming other pilots for the continued actions of the company applying a poorly worded, wholly unnecessary section of the contract is fundamentally flawed and only serves to strengthen the company's insolence.

Do you honestly believe that there is so much draft that merely declining it would put our BLG's back up their contractual minimums? May as well believe in the Easter Bunny or Compassionate Conservatism.

In addition to misunderstanding my post, you are also incorrect in your reasoning. Those who pick up draft and hawk open time are AIDING the company by their actions. I didn't say they are solely responsible for us remaining in 4a2b, but they are most certainly helping the company delay our exit from it. And yes, I'm a compassionate conservative, so I can also believe that if everyone were to decline draft on a continued basis it would hasten our exit from reduced BLGs. You, however, are free to believe otherwise. Please explain to me how accepting draft HELPS our cause?

iarapilot
02-03-2010, 09:45 PM
Hate to break it to you, but the company did this. The company will decide if or when to restore our wages unless they are compelled to do it by an arbitrator or judge (fat chance, IMO we are going to lose this one). Blaming other pilots for the continued actions of the company applying a poorly worded, wholly unnecessary section of the contract is fundamentally flawed and only serves to strengthen the company's insolence.

Do you honestly believe that there is so much draft that merely declining it would put our BLG's back up their contractual minimums? May as well believe in the Easter Bunny or Compassionate Conservatism.

I have to respectfully agree, and disagree. Yes, the Company did this to us. And, yes, they will decide when to restore wages. The point missed on way to many of our brothers and sisters is that their decision to restore wages would be accelerated greatly by folks enjoying their time off. Kind of a unity sort of concept which, it seems, that to many dont understand. And yes, I know, it is their contractual right to pick up open time! We have ALL of the leverage, but "we" dont use it. JMO!

BoxDawg
02-04-2010, 04:08 AM
If we keep this up, I wouldnt blame people for blocking their calendar. We just dont know whats going on in peoples lives. Go ahead and shoot me up for this.

CAVU
02-04-2010, 05:41 AM
If we keep this up, I wouldnt blame people for blocking their calendar. We just dont know whats going on in peoples lives. Go ahead and shoot me up for this.
Concur. FedEx Flight Operations is in a perpetual state of cultural decline.

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 05:54 AM
If we keep this up, I wouldnt blame people for blocking their calendar. We just dont know whats going on in peoples lives. Go ahead and shoot me up for this.

Sounds like you wouldn't blame "people" for much of anything, unless it is blaming people who criticize overflying BLG. I don't "blame" you for that. But I also don't "blame" people for talking about others who are making 100% over the mean, especially when the "blamers" are taking a 25% pay cut. Calendar blocking (along with DP flying) is a perfectly acceptable practice in the CBA; why should an above it all guy like you blame them anyways?

I don't look at others calendars (unless there is a convienent hyperlink), but I am glad others do because we need to make sure ALPA fixes this in the next contract. It will not happen unless public sentiment remains outraged.

AFW_MD11
02-04-2010, 06:15 AM
In addition to misunderstanding my post, you are also incorrect in your reasoning. Those who pick up draft and hawk open time are AIDING the company by their actions. I didn't say they are solely responsible for us remaining in 4a2b, but they are most certainly helping the company delay our exit from it. And yes, I'm a compassionate conservative, so I can also believe that if everyone were to decline draft on a continued basis it would hasten our exit from reduced BLGs. You, however, are free to believe otherwise. Please explain to me how accepting draft HELPS our cause?

key word - everyone = 100%

this will NEVER happen here at FedEx - reasons:

1) our "corporate culture" - always been draft/volunteer/vacation buyback/carryover - fly as much as you can and help the company while helping your own bottom line as well

2) managers qualified to fly the airplanes when ALL the line pilots turn down the draft trips

3) the 1% (as someone mentioned) - 99% isn't "EVERYONE" thus, the trips WILL get flown by the 1% - fighting a losing battle

conclusion - it is 100% impossible for us to rally 100% of the troops and EVERYONE decline draft ALL THE TIME

the draft trips WILL BE FLOWN by someone (especially since the company has the management pilots in their hip pocket as a relief valve)

so......wouldn't it be better if the extra pay went to someone that the company has stolen it from (4A2b) rather than one of management's whippin' boys who is getting 90+ CH guarantee every month anyway?

fire away......

Booyakasha!
02-04-2010, 07:04 AM
key word - everyone = 100%

this will NEVER happen here at FedEx - reasons:

1) our "corporate culture" - always been draft/volunteer/vacation buyback/carryover - fly as much as you can and help the company while helping your own bottom line as well

2) managers qualified to fly the airplanes when ALL the line pilots turn down the draft trips

3) the 1% (as someone mentioned) - 99% isn't "EVERYONE" thus, the trips WILL get flown by the 1% - fighting a losing battle

conclusion - it is 100% impossible for us to rally 100% of the troops and EVERYONE decline draft ALL THE TIME

the draft trips WILL BE FLOWN by someone (especially since the company has the management pilots in their hip pocket as a relief valve)

so......wouldn't it be better if the extra pay went to someone that the company has stolen it from (4A2b) rather than one of management's whippin' boys who is getting 90+ CH guarantee every month anyway?

fire away......

Yup, that about sums it up.

I appreciate my job here, but I just have to roll my eyes at some of the people here.:rolleyes:

Deuce130
02-04-2010, 07:43 AM
key word - everyone = 100%

this will NEVER happen here at FedEx - reasons:

1) our "corporate culture" - always been draft/volunteer/vacation buyback/carryover - fly as much as you can and help the company while helping your own bottom line as well

2) managers qualified to fly the airplanes when ALL the line pilots turn down the draft trips

3) the 1% (as someone mentioned) - 99% isn't "EVERYONE" thus, the trips WILL get flown by the 1% - fighting a losing battle

conclusion - it is 100% impossible for us to rally 100% of the troops and EVERYONE decline draft ALL THE TIME

the draft trips WILL BE FLOWN by someone (especially since the company has the management pilots in their hip pocket as a relief valve)

so......wouldn't it be better if the extra pay went to someone that the company has stolen it from (4A2b) rather than one of management's whippin' boys who is getting 90+ CH guarantee every month anyway?

fire away......


Ok, I get it now. "Someone" will always fly draft. They will always suck up open time. They will always fly past 60, 65, 70... They will always bid an airplane without a pay rate. They will always backdoor the union. They will always cross a picket line. They will always do whatever scumbag thing they have to do to keep up with joneses and make a buck. So, it might as well be you. Flawless logic.

Busboy
02-04-2010, 07:57 AM
Ok, I get it now. "Someone" will always fly draft. They will always suck up open time. They will always fly past 60, 65, 70... They will always bid an airplane without a pay rate. They will always backdoor the union. They will always cross a picket line. They will always do whatever scumbag thing they have to do to keep up with joneses and make a buck. So, it might as well be you. Flawless logic.

You forgot this ":rolleyes:".

Otherwise...You took the words out of my mouth. Even the one's that think they're on board, don't get it. They'll jump off this train at the first stop they see one of our rats nibbling the cheese he got loose from the trap. Because they want their share.

My apologies to any rats I may have offended.

FDXFLYR
02-04-2010, 08:11 AM
I think you're wrong to suggest that unless 100% of the pilots do something, nothing will change. I recall during our last contract negotiations, the company finally settled once a majority of MEM-based MD-11 FOs finally stopped working extra. It didn't take 100%, just a lot of them. Combined with ANC and SFS not working extra (sorry to the bus and 727 communities in MEM, I'm not there and so I don't know to what degree they added to the mix), it finally became too much for the company to deal with. It could have happened the day the contract became amendable but the company didn't have to settle because no one was doing anything about it in numbers large enough to matter.

Our current contract becomes amendable Nov 1st of THIS YEAR. It would be wonderful for both the contract negotiations and 4a2b if we all stopped working extra RIGHT NOW. As was noted in other posts, we all have the power to make this happen, we all just need to stop making excuses and do it.

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 08:27 AM
Ok, I get it now. "Someone" will always fly draft. They will always suck up open time. They will always fly past 60, 65, 70... They will always bid an airplane without a pay rate. They will always backdoor the union. They will always cross a picket line. They will always do whatever scumbag thing they have to do to keep up with joneses and make a buck. So, it might as well be you. Flawless logic.

Don't forget fly a DP.:)

AFW_MD11
02-04-2010, 08:47 AM
Ok, I get it now. "Someone" will always fly draft. They will always suck up open time. They will always fly past 60, 65, 70... They will always bid an airplane without a pay rate. They will always backdoor the union. They will always cross a picket line. They will always do whatever scumbag thing they have to do to keep up with joneses and make a buck. So, it might as well be you. Flawless logic.

1. I was ONLY talking about draft/volunteer - my theory/logic was not intended to extend beyond that into all those other areas that you extended it to.

(of course I would never condone crossing a picket line or volunteering to fly disputed pairings)

2. I never said "it might as well be ME" either - just might as well be someone OTHER THAN company stooge (manager) who gets the extra pay for draft flying (again - only talking about draft flying here....at least I was)

amazing how easy it is to twist/spin someone's words into something completely different than originally intended - that's what I love about this forum :)

AFW_MD11
02-04-2010, 08:56 AM
I think you're wrong to suggest that unless 100% of the pilots do something, nothing will change. I recall during our last contract negotiations, the company finally settled once a majority of MEM-based MD-11 FOs finally stopped working extra. It didn't take 100%, just a lot of them. Combined with ANC and SFS not working extra (sorry to the bus and 727 communities in MEM, I'm not there and so I don't know to what degree they added to the mix), it finally became too much for the company to deal with. It could have happened the day the contract became amendable but the company didn't have to settle because no one was doing anything about it in numbers large enough to matter.

Our current contract becomes amendable Nov 1st of THIS YEAR. It would be wonderful for both the contract negotiations and 4a2b if we all stopped working extra RIGHT NOW. As was noted in other posts, we all have the power to make this happen, we all just need to stop making excuses and do it.

I follow your logic and agree to an extent (in a perfect economy)

However, it's sort of an apples to oranges comp. (that was then, this is now)

under the last negotiations we were hiring and not "overmanned"

there was plenty of flying to go around - too much - so much so that the company RELIED on pilots flying draft/volunteer and even had vacation buyback/cancellation to cover the "extra"

so, applying what happened THEN to what "could happen" NOW doesn't work.

I'm just sayin'......NOW.....under the paycuts of 4A2b it would be a miracle if enough line pilots declined draft such that the company even ran out of management guys to fly the extra and we actually left freight on the ramp.

not sayin' it's impossible - but 99.9% impossible given the current overall situation.

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 09:23 AM
1. I was ONLY talking about draft/volunteer - my theory/logic was not intended to extend beyond that into all those other areas that you extended it to.

(of course I would never condone crossing a picket line or volunteering to fly disputed pairings)

2. I never said "it might as well be ME" either - just might as well be someone OTHER THAN company stooge (manager) who gets the extra pay for draft flying (again - only talking about draft flying here....at least I was)

amazing how easy it is to twist/spin someone's words into something completely different than originally intended - that's what I love about this forum :)

No one is twisting your words. We are just comparing various other CBA authorized behaviors with the one that you approve of. Please explain the difference in flying a DP and flying extra when the company says we are overmanned. Feel free to cite any union communication or CBA section that says pilots should not fly DPs.

Gunter
02-04-2010, 10:06 AM
Please explain the difference in flying a DP and flying extra when the company says we are overmanned. Feel free to cite any union communication or CBA section that says pilots should not fly DPs.

Holy Hotdogs Batman! I can trade a crappy trip for an extra and be o.k. But I can't with a DP.

You are mistaken about DPs. They're just wrong and the folks that fly them often know it.

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 10:16 AM
Holy Hotdogs Batman! I can trade a crappy trip for an extra and be o.k. But I can't with a DP.

You are mistaken about DPs. It's just wrong.

Question Robin.

Can't or wont? Why cant you? Does the union tell you not to?

Did you even read the previous threads before you took mine out of context? You don't think the people flying 140 hours a month during 4A2b are wrong and know it?

AFW_MD11
02-04-2010, 10:55 AM
No one is twisting your words. We are just comparing various other CBA authorized behaviors with the one that you approve of. Please explain the difference in flying a DP and flying extra when the company says we are overmanned. Feel free to cite any union communication or CBA section that says pilots should not fly DPs.

you're right....since I "approve of" flying draft, it goes without saying that I also "approve of" crossing picket lines, voluntarily flying DPs, and ALL the other totally unrelated "CBA authorized behaviors" that you and others have listed here.

makes total sense to me. :rolleyes:

note: that was an example of twisting words or putting words in one's mouth.....see how that worked?

note 2: technically, I never stated I "approve of flying draft" - I just said if it's inevitable (and I believe that it is inevitable) that someone will get paid draft for flying a trip.....it might as well be a line pilot vs. a management pilot

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 11:00 AM
you're right....since I "approve of" flying draft, it goes without saying that I also "approve of" crossing picket lines, voluntarily flying DPs, and ALL the other totally unrelated "CBA authorized behaviors" that you and others have listed here.

makes total sense to me. :rolleyes:

note: that was an example of twisting words or putting words in one's mouth.....see how that worked?

note 2: technically, I never stated I "approve of flying draft" - I just said if it's inevitable (and I believe that it is inevitable) that someone will get paid draft for flying a trip.....it might as well be a line pilot vs. a management pilot

No one said you approved of the other actions just axed you to explain the difference. If someone can justify flying draft for your reasons why can't they justify flying DPs for the same reasons and would you object? Do what your conscience calls for but some of us see a lot of similarity in certain behaviors.

AFW_MD11
02-04-2010, 11:56 AM
No one said you approved of the other actions just axed you to explain the difference. If someone can justify flying draft for your reasons why can't they justify flying DPs for the same reasons and would you object? Do what your conscience calls for but some of us see a lot of similarity in certain behaviors.

my bad.....I must've read what you typed wrong then.

I know your "question" (aka accusation) was meant to be rhetorical and accusitory in nature, but I'll humor you anyway.

answer is.....because it's a TOTALLY different and unrelated "behavior"?

the reasons I stated that someone might use to justify flying draft do not, in any way, relate to nor justify voluntarily flying a DP.

differences:

1. DP's not flown will be assigned to RESERVES - not management pilots

2. Reserve pilots cannot refuse to fly a DP if assigned to fly one, but reserve pilots CAN refuse to fly draft on their days off from reserve.

3. Voluntarily flying a DP undermines a specific CBA process that is designed to protect line pilots from being forced to fly "onerous" pairings that are considered to be "unsafe" and/or overly fatiguing. Flying draft trips, on the other hand, is just getting paid extra to fly a regular (non-disputed) trip that comes open short-notice that the company can't assign to a reserve - doesn't undermine any specific CBA process designed to protect pilots from "bad" trips.

I could go on, but it seems pointless as you have already determined that, in your mind, flying draft = voluntarily flying DPs

And nothing I (or anyone else) can argue is going to change your mind.

so......whatever.....here......let me put some words in your mouth.....

you must be a management pilot that likes to fly draft in addition to your 90+ hour monthly guarantee.......so you're trying to discourage all the line pilots from picking up draft trips to leave them for YOU!! ;)

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 12:06 PM
Where does it say a draft trip will not be assigned to a reserve? Is there a seperate open time list for DP and potential draft trips I don't know about? Aren't there DPs that have been offered up as draft? If noone accepts the draft what happens? In the old days I think they called that leverage.

"A specific CBA process" something akin to 4A2b you mean?

I don't care what you guys do, but I think flying extra while the company is cutting others hours is wrong (now I will put words in your mouth) you don't. Good for you.

You think this is some personal attack it is not. We messed up by not contractually limiting flying when 4A2b is in effect. I just want to make sure we fix that or remove 4A2b.

AFW_MD11
02-04-2010, 12:31 PM
Where does it say a draft trip will not be assigned to a reserve? Is there a seperate open time list for DP and potential draft trips I don't know about? Aren't there DPs that have been offered up as draft? Or better yet if no reserve is available not flown. In the old days I think they called that leverage.

"A specific CBA process" something akin to 4A2b you mean?

I don't care what you guys do, but I think flying extra while the company is cutting others hours is wrong (now I will put words in your mouth) you don't. Good for you.

You think this is some personal attack it is not. We messed up by not contractually limiting flying when 4A2b is in effect. I just want to make sure we fix that or remove 4A2b.

You're right - I don't think flying a regular (non-DP) trip on draft is the same as voluntarily flying a DP - not even close to the same.

You have some really convoluted logic - trying to muddy the waters of the discussion by talking about being offered a DP on draft??

same answer - voluntarily flying a DP undermines the DP process (on draft or straight pay)

You're right again - we "messed up" by not limiting the "extra" flying during invocation of 4A2b - but, it's NOT limited - under 4A2b or not under 4A2b

4A2b of the contract is not going to get "fixed" - like we all want it to be fixed - by regular line pilots refusing to "fly extra" - draft or regular M/U

That has very little-to-NO effect on the company's reduced hours tactics - the trips WILL be flown - its just a matter of whether regular line pilots or management will benefit from the flying of those trips.

The ONLY two ways 4A2b will be fixed is if 1) the arbitrator makes the company change and exit 4A2b, or 2) we negotiate a change in the upcoming CBA negotiations - period.

Wishful thinking that we're gonna unify, refuse draft, stay out of make-up, leave freight on the ramp, and force the company to exit 4A2b - ain't gonna happen (even if we did the unify part to begin with). :(

imho

(deah horse thoroughly beaten)

P.S. the company doesn't have to pay a Reserve pilot 150% to fly a trip - they just assign it to them - your question on that totally doesn't make sense?

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 12:43 PM
I noticed you still haven't cited any union or CBA language that says not to fly DPs. I can't figure out why you say it undermines the process (for Gunter only: No I don't approve of flying DPs). You do know that one of the main reasons a trip goes draft is because of insufficient reserves don't you? You do know that one of the reasons we are in 4A2b is because they have cut reserve and STBY coverage don't you?

Since we can't agree on whether or not flying extra helps the company and hurts the crew force how about this as a compromise:

You fly extra and anyone who wants to comment on it here can.;)

BoxDawg
02-04-2010, 02:15 PM
Sounds like you wouldn't blame "people" for much of anything, unless it is blaming people who criticize overflying BLG. I don't "blame" you for that. But I also don't "blame" people for talking about others who are making 100% over the mean, especially when the "blamers" are taking a 25% pay cut. Calendar blocking (along with DP flying) is a perfectly acceptable practice in the CBA; why should an above it all guy like you blame them anyways?

I don't look at others calendars (unless there is a convienent hyperlink), but I am glad others do because we need to make sure ALPA fixes this in the next contract. It will not happen unless public sentiment remains outraged.

Dude, if my comment set you off to this degree, you might want to think about some help. What I am saying is with some guys putting calendars up for review on this board, the assumption is that they are always guilty. Just look at the guys who piled on the ANC guy who got a DP on Reserve last week. I am going to block because I do reserve too. Fight the enemy pal.

FDXLAG
02-04-2010, 02:34 PM
Dude, if my comment set you off to this degree, you might want to think about some help. What I am saying is with some guys putting calendars up for review on this board, the assumption is that they are always guilty. Just look at the guys who piled on the ANC guy who got a DP on Reserve last week. I am going to block because I do reserve too. Fight the enemy pal.

Dude, I am a little confused tell me which sentence in my post you consider to be over the line.

MD11Fr8Dog
02-04-2010, 04:08 PM
I am going to block because I do reserve too.

Uh,yea, right!:rolleyes:

Gunter
02-04-2010, 05:19 PM
I am going to block because I do reserve too.

I second the disbelief. What do you have to hide?

R1200RT
02-04-2010, 05:24 PM
Well, after skimming through this thread I've decided our next contract will take 10 years to achieve and we will save the company 8 billion dollars bickering. That is, if this is a representative cross section of the pilot group.

But, if you guys are just a few nutz maybe it will only take 5 years.

BoxDawg
02-05-2010, 02:20 AM
I am going to block because of the electronic lynch mobs rampaging around on this forum. I would never pick up a DP, but if I want to drop a month to spend some time on a vacation with my family, and then pick up the time later, thats my business, not yours. Thats what i do in the summertime, most years. Flame on flamers, knock yourself out shooting another one of your bretheren down here. Just dont ever call yourselves (referring to the select FEW who identify others with no grounds to do so) leaders of men!

BoxDawg
02-05-2010, 02:23 AM
I second the disbelief. What do you have to hide?
Nothing Gunter, thats just my point. I have nothing at all to hide, but you just want to assume that I do. I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past Gunter, just I think some people are going waaaaaay overboard with this Bravo Sierra.

FDXLAG
02-05-2010, 03:47 AM
I am going to block because of the electronic lynch mobs rampaging around on this forum. I would never pick up a DP, but if I want to drop a month to spend some time on a vacation with my family, and then pick up the time later, thats my business, not yours. Thats what i do in the summertime, most years. Flame on flamers, knock yourself out shooting another one of your bretheren down here. Just dont ever call yourselves (referring to the select FEW who identify others with no grounds to do so) leaders of men!

Just curious, is it ok to identify with grounds to do so?

BoxDawg
02-05-2010, 04:39 AM
Just curious, is it ok to identify with grounds to do so?

You mean like the grounds that the poster had when they nailed an ANC pilot to the wall when they were accused of flying a DP, when they actually got the trip on reserve?
I dont actually believe that you really care what I think at this point, you just want to use your red letter highlighter, and maybe correct my punctuation and spelling while your at it.
Flying carryover or picking up a trip is NOT the same as being a scab. How do we allow ourselves to blur these lines like this, and then act like we are trying to call for unity. Just asking here guys, so go ahead and punch the guy that you might be flying your next trip with.

Gunter
02-05-2010, 04:43 AM
BoxDawg,

You should try and discern the forest from the trees.

Don'tBHate'n
02-05-2010, 06:02 AM
Aaron Tippin said it best.

YouTube - Aaron Tippin - You've Got To Stand For Something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_s-Qk07KxA)

FDXLAG
02-05-2010, 07:29 AM
You mean like the grounds that the poster had when they nailed an ANC pilot to the wall when they were accused of flying a DP, when they actually got the trip on reserve?
I dont actually believe that you really care what I think at this point, you just want to use your red letter highlighter, and maybe correct my punctuation and spelling while your at it.
Flying carryover or picking up a trip is NOT the same as being a scab. How do we allow ourselves to blur these lines like this, and then act like we are trying to call for unity. Just asking here guys, so go ahead and punch the guy that you might be flying your next trip with.

I got a purple highlighter too. What are you just asking? Unlike you I will give a straight answer to a straight question. Scab is a little strong, I haven't pulled up anyones schedule I just pointed out to AFW that all of his excuses for flying extra can be used to fly DPs. No one gives a rat whodat if you fly 68.9 hours this month. Some are outraged if you fly 128.6 hours month after month. I don't blame them but I hope they save that outrage for contract ratification time..

pipe
02-05-2010, 08:40 AM
If some members of the group cannot be trusted to do the right thing when necessary (which is obviously the case), it's time to police them ourselves.

In the next contract there needs to be a credit hour cap. This will help to smooth some of the staffing peaks and valleys that the company apparently cannot deal with. It will eliminate some of the irresponsible behavior of a small minority of the membership which the MEC apparently cannot deal with.

PIPE

pinseeker
02-05-2010, 09:41 AM
If some members of the group cannot be trusted to do the right thing when necessary (which is obviously the case), it's time to police them ourselves.

In the next contract there needs to be a credit hour cap. This will help to smooth some of the staffing peaks and valleys that the company apparently cannot deal with. It will eliminate some of the irresponsible behavior of a small minority of the membership which the MEC apparently cannot deal with.

PIPE

How is the MEC going to deal with it when there is a block rep who averaged 100 hrs/month OCT-JAN. If you look back further, it doesn't get much better.

BoxDawg
02-05-2010, 02:30 PM
I got a purple highlighter too. What are you just asking? Unlike you I will give a straight answer to a straight question. Scab is a little strong, I haven't pulled up anyones schedule I just pointed out to AFW that all of his excuses for flying extra can be used to fly DPs. No one gives a rat whodat if you fly 68.9 hours this month. Some are outraged if you fly 128.6 hours month after month. I don't blame them but I hope they save that outrage for contract ratification time..

What does a guy do for fun that posts anonymously over 3000 times on this forum? Go out a get a hobby or something, something productive other than trying to rip other peoples opinions and actions apart.
I think that ramping up the language to the use of the word SCAB, and the whole "policing our own" through anonymous means is childish, and unproductive to our collective goal. If you have a gripe with something someone is doing, call them up and act like a leader.
BTW, purple is a bit girly isnt it?

FDXLAG
02-05-2010, 04:02 PM
Ahh the personal attacks boo hoo. Well we can tell who one this argument. Kind of ironic Calendar blocker complaining about hiding behind anonymity. Give me you name and I will say this to your face:

You can't find any post where I criticize anyone’s schedule. Better men then you have looked. The only thing I have done is defend the rights of others who criticize schedules. Usually they critique the schedules of people who say they have nothing to hide then start blocking their schedule. My complaint is with the weak language of the contract that allows us to hose our other union brothers by flying extra when the company is cutting hours.

I am secure in my manhood and don't have to worry if a color looks girly.

I'll offer you the same deal I offered AFW. You fly extra all you want and anyone who wants to will comment anyway they want to.

MD11Fr8Dog
02-05-2010, 06:25 PM
If you have a gripe with something someone is doing, call them up and act like a leader.


Surefire way to get a call from LK!:rolleyes:

42GO
02-05-2010, 07:47 PM
Nothing Gunter, thats just my point. I have nothing at all to hide, but you just want to assume that I do. I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past Gunter, just I think some people are going waaaaaay overboard with this Bravo Sierra.

The same 20 odd guys, raging at the world, over and over and over again.

you guys need to find something else to do with your lives.

BoxDawg
02-05-2010, 08:59 PM
Yeah FDXLAG, you go man! You really got me on this one! Wow, your so smart what with your sitting on the computer literally all day posting (look him up folks) on APC. What a man! Fox 2, I am bingo!

MoonF18
02-05-2010, 09:02 PM
Box dog, dont waste your time, these guys are professionals at this. And I am with you, this scab stuff is out of hand.

purpledog
02-06-2010, 02:44 AM
I am definitely on board with a monthly hours cap! That would level the field a lot and solve their "overmanning" issue. Max 12 hrs over BLG would be fair including C/O.

FedElta
02-06-2010, 03:20 AM
Guys,

Elimination of Cap and Bank, and implementation of PBS were the two main ways mother Delta used to shrink a 10,000+ crewforce to a 7000+ crewforce. ( approximate post-bankruptcy numbers ).

Cap and Bank, would take care of overmanning overnight, reduce the disparity between the haves' and the have nots'

Properly structured, it gives a lot of flexibility to crewmembers, but the air prostitutes are SOL.

This is one area at D that imho, seems much better than FedEx.

Flame on,
BG

MEMFO4Ever
02-06-2010, 06:20 AM
Guys,

Elimination of Cap and Bank, and implementation of PBS were the two main ways mother Delta used to shrink a 10,000+ crewforce to a 7000+ crewforce. ( approximate post-bankruptcy numbers ).

Cap and Bank, would take care of overmanning overnight, reduce the disparity between the haves' and the have nots'

Properly structured, it gives a lot of flexibility to crewmembers, but the air prostitutes are SOL.

This is one area at D that imho, seems much better than FedEx.

Flame on,
BG

Personally, I will never support any limit on what a crewmember can earn here. Automatic no vote. The last contract survey indicated to the NC that this was in fact the desire of most pilots. MH (prior NC), in roadshow meetings, reiterated this numerous times. You want to work 120 hours a month? Do it. I just want to work my guarantee. (Dear mangler trolls, ~ 9 days/54ish hours a month works just fine now that I am used to it)

The company's ridiculous hiring practices and the economy may have started this, but the over-60 fiasco shoved down our collective throats chained us to the 4a2b profit train nearly indefinitely. This company was overmanned long before the economy took a dump and the only real mitigation to that was legislated away for 5 years.

Unknown Rider
02-06-2010, 06:48 AM
Personally, I will never support any limit on what a crewmember can earn here. Automatic no vote. The last contract survey indicated to the NC that this was in fact the desire of most pilots. MH (prior NC), in roadshow meetings, reiterated this numerous times. You want to work 120 hours a month? Do it. I just want to work my guarantee. (Dear mangler trolls, ~ 9 days/54ish hours a month works just fine now that I am used to it)

The company's ridiculous hiring practices and the economy may have started this, but the over-60 fiasco shoved down our collective throats chained us to the 4a2b profit train nearly indefinitely. This company was overmanned long before the economy took a dump and the only real mitigation to that was legislated away for 5 years.

While I generally don't support a cap and bank system, I think implementing one while in 4a2b would be okay. I don't think it's right that some are making 57 hours while others make over 100. This would also eliminate the disparity of hours between aircraft types. However, since some of the block reps are averaging 85-90 hours a month, I don't see it getting much support from the MEC.

Gunter
02-06-2010, 06:55 AM
One guy wants 12 hr additional max and another no max. These are two extremes. If you take a look at a few calenders you will see some guys do 120+ hr months. So do a few calender blockers. Extremes this high, when they are regularly repeated, are not good. A little limiting to this might be in order. But I fear something worse, like a 12 hr max or Cap and Bank, will be floated as the answer. But both of these would still allow their favorite draft babies, we know who they are, to avoid the cap. Don't think for a second that the company would allow their flexibility in this area to be limited. They will only allow your flexibility to be ruined.


I don't think a 12 max is good. If you want to take a month off you have to fly more in following months to make it back up. Often a small number limit, like 12 hrs, gets in the way. Cap and Bank, as it is traditionally known, makes you fly every month too. I don't like that kind of socialism.

Personal or family illness, vacation, time to start a business, whatever. I would like us to keep the flexibility we now have to take a month or two off every year. Or to work on a high 5 if you want to.

Our current flexibiity allows some to have a side business. This is good because business owners often fly less than they would if they were shoehorned into a Cap and Bank system.

The economy is picking up. Those that have or want to start side business will once again fly less.

Gunter
02-06-2010, 07:02 AM
While I generally don't support a cap and bank system, I think implementing one while in 4a2b would be okay. I don't think it's right that some are making 57 hours while others make over 100. This would also eliminate the disparity of hours between aircraft types. However, since some of the block reps are averaging 85-90 hours a month, I don't see it getting much support from the MEC.

Which ones? If they didn't want their actions known they shouldn't have run for office.

FDXLAG
02-06-2010, 07:31 AM
Yeah FDXLAG, you go man! You really got me on this one! Wow, your so smart what with your sitting on the computer literally all day posting (look him up folks) on APC. What a man! Fox 2, I am bingo!

Wow what a change from this empathetic poster.

If we keep this up, I wouldnt blame people for blocking their calendar. We just dont know whats going on in peoples lives. Go ahead and shoot me up for this.

How do you know what goes on in my life doesn’t offer unlimited access to a laptop. I mean I could be driving the meals on wheels van and have to guard it when the 16 year old cheerleaders run up to serve the meals, there is 30 minutes to play with my I Phone there. In the afternoon I could be tutoring logic to special ed kids and use post on APC as examples of how not to do it. At night I could be guarding the women’s shelter and take time from FOM study to check my 2nd favorite website.

Or I could be sitting around in my pajamas waiting for someone to make up crap about scabs and pounce. What is it to you either way. What I do has nothing to do with you being wrong.

FDXLAG
02-06-2010, 07:37 AM
One guy wants 12 hr additional max and another no max. These are two extremes. If you take a look at a few calenders you will see some guys do 120+ hr months. So do a few calender blockers. Extremes this high, when they are regularly repeated, are not good. A little limiting to this might be in order. But I fear something worse, like a 12 hr max or Cap and Bank, will be floated as the answer. But both of these would still allow their favorite draft babies, we know who they are, to avoid the cap. Don't think for a second that the company would allow their flexibility in this area to be limited. They will only allow your flexibility to be ruined.


I don't think a 12 max is good. If you want to take a month off you have to fly more in following months to make it back up. Often a small number limit, like 12 hrs, gets in the way. Cap and Bank, as it is traditionally known, makes you fly every month too. I don't like that kind of socialism.

Personal or family illness, vacation, time to start a business, whatever. I would like us to keep the flexibility we now have to take a month or two off every year. Or to work on a high 5 if you want to.

Our current flexibiity allows some to have a side business. This is good because business owners often fly less than they would if they were shoehorned into a Cap and Bank system.

They economy is picking up. Those that have or want to start side business will once again fly less.

As I said before just limit CIC priority makeup for anything over BLG and 99% of this problem goes away. Make em compete for make up with everyone else. Notice I did not say eliminate CIC altogether.

The only guys able to get 120 hours every month would be limited to the BOTs.

pinseeker
02-06-2010, 09:52 AM
Which ones? If they didn't want their actions known they shouldn't have run for office.

I'm just guessing, but it might be your block rep or someone one block senior or junior to you.

CAVU
02-06-2010, 11:02 AM
I am definitely on board with a monthly hours cap! That would level the field a lot and solve their "overmanning" issue. Max 12 hrs over BLG would be fair including C/O.

The stability and security FedEx pilots have enjoyed over the years is largely attributable to our historical lean manning model and the flexibility within our work rules (going back to the Falcon days).

By keeping manning optimized for the reduced springtime volumes and relying on remedies (VLT, DRF, VAC cancelations) for winter peak, we never furloughed during economic downturns. Conversely, airlines constrained by a cap and bank were forced to hire for their summer peaks and often furloughed during downturns.

Make no mistake; leaner manning reduces labor costs for the Company, but it also enhances stability and security for our pilots.

The recent perfect storm (worst recession since the great depression, regulated age change, and transition from 3 to 2-pilot fleet) is an anomaly we will likely never see again. But economic cycles will be with us forever. We will get past this 4.A.2.b nightmare. Letís maintain our long-term security by keeping manning lean and work rules flexible.

pipe
02-06-2010, 11:39 AM
The stability and security FedEx pilots have enjoyed over the years is largely attributable to our historical lean manning model and the flexibility within our work rules (going back to the Falcon days).

By keeping manning optimized for the reduced springtime volumes and relying on remedies (VLT, DRF, VAC cancelations) for winter peak, we never furloughed during economic downturns. Conversely, airlines constrained by a cap and bank were forced to hire for their summer peaks and often furloughed during downturns.

Make no mistake; leaner manning reduces labor costs for the Company, but it also enhances stability and security for our pilots.

The recent perfect storm (worst recession since the great depression, regulated age change, and transition from 3 to 2-pilot fleet) is an anomaly we will likely never see again. But economic cycles will be with us forever. We will get past this 4.A.2.b nightmare. Letís maintain our long-term security by keeping manning lean and work rules flexible.

That may have been true in the 1970's. It's a different ballgame now. We are 4500 out of nearly 300,000 employees. Our wages, manning, benfits, retirement, etc. are a tiny blip on the overall balance sheet.

How about a rolling 12 month cap on hours? Then you still have almost unlimited flexibility month-to-month, the company can plus up during peak, and prostitution won't undermine the group in the long-term.

PIPE

Gunter
02-06-2010, 12:04 PM
That may have been true in the 1970's. It's a different ballgame now. We are 4500 out of nearly 300,000 employees. Our wages, manning, benfits, retirement, etc. are a tiny blip on the overall balance sheet.

PIPE

An operation with thousands of categories of expenses can't just let them go up one by one because they are merely a "blip on the balance sheet." That's a great way to eventually erase every trace of profit. And I guarantee we are more scrutinized than any other 4500 employee group.

Pax airlines let their pilot unions go Cap and bank and now they have a long history of furloughs. Do you think the average Regional Captain wold rather wait another two or three years for a secure job or take one now and risk being furloughed until they lose their house and all their savings during furlough? The only ones that wouldn't care are the military folks with guard jobs or a retirement.

CAVU
02-06-2010, 12:19 PM
How about a rolling 12 month cap on hours? Then you still have almost unlimited flexibility month-to-month, the company can plus up during peak, and prostitution won't undermine the group in the long-term.

PIPE

I would start by avoiding the prostitution tag. I cringed when I read the start of this thread. In all seriousness, a libel, slander and defamation lawyer would have a field day with this if the pilot in question chooses to press to test.

On to your suggestion: In my opinion, the only work rules that need addressing are the ones under 4.A.2.b.. The concept of shared sacrifice to protect the most vulnerable on the seniority list is noble and just, but the current application did not spread the pain evenly. That is the root cause of most of the rage expressed on these boards. Clearly, no future contract will be ratified without addressing 4.A.2.b workrules (remedy caps, line and seat position spreads, etc).

As an old friend use to say ďif it ainít fixed, donít break itĒ. Our work rule flexibility has served us well in the past and will be a key component to our future security and stability.

BoxDawg
02-06-2010, 02:28 PM
How do you know what goes on in my life doesn’t offer unlimited access to a laptop. I mean I could be driving the meals on wheels van and have to guard it when the 16 year old cheerleaders run up to serve the meals, there is 30 minutes to play with my I Phone there. In the afternoon I could be tutoring logic to special ed kids and use post on APC as examples of how not to do it. At night I could be guarding the women’s shelter and take time from FOM study to check my 2nd favorite website.

Or I could be sitting around in my pajamas waiting for someone to make up crap about scabs and pounce. What is it to you either way. What I do has nothing to do with you being wrong.

Wow, you are pretty sensitive for a fighter pilot! I dont think that you do any of those worthwhile things, I think that you sit in your XXL jammies all day eating cheese puffs, watching streaming reruns of Oprah and Keith Olberman, BUT you COULD be doing those noble things! Your argument creates divisiveness, not unity. Bingo, bye.:mad:

FDXLAG
02-06-2010, 04:06 PM
Wow out of all of my posts you get I am the sensitive one. I don't hide my calendar because of what people might think. Now I will stoop to your level and go personal for the 1st time. Your aren't very smart.

Here is my argument, tell me where it is devisive (no wait you can't your gone):

1. We are in 4A2b in large part because Fedex has reduced reserve and stby manning and has extra trips out of the bidpack.

2. Fedex is counting on over-flying to cover the extra trips.

3. Overflying allows Fedex to cover the extra trips without using their depleted reserves.

4. Flying extra help Fedex maintain 4A2b. Flying extra promotes deviseness not unity. Bye bye.

hamfisted
02-06-2010, 04:31 PM
Prostitute?? Scab?? Powerful words used so carelessly and wrecklessly. How petty.................somebody owes her an apology.

Deuce130
02-06-2010, 04:46 PM
Prostitute?? Scab?? Powerful words used so carelessly and wrecklessly. How petty.................somebody owes her an apology.

Well.....I'm sure it would be easier to offer up apologies if she wasn't doing the work of two pilots. Better yet, if she wasn't doing the work of two pilots, none of this would have come up in the first place. Some people just aren't getting it. 4a2b changes the game. Work all you want, when you want. Be a draft monger, sell your vacation, PDO, I don't care...as long as it's not during this 4a2b crap or during contract negotiations. If people choose to undermine negotiations or assist the company in reducing BLGs or furloughing, then I think they deserve the scorn heaped upon them. You are free to feel differently, of course.

Time Off
02-06-2010, 04:54 PM
Webster's Dictionary:

Prostitute: to devote to corrupt or unworthy purposes : debase <prostitute one's talents>

I think it applies. She flew 93:06 in Jan (4-week bid month, with draft) This doesn't even count the Draft she just took in Feb.

BoxDawg
02-06-2010, 10:16 PM
[quote=FDXLAG;759276] I don't hide my calendar because of what people might think.

I base my actions and decisions on what I believe to be right, moral, and in keeping with the concept of honor, not what someone else would think.


Your aren't very smart.

Where do i even start with this one?

I have taken the same pay cut, maybe more than many, during 4a2b. I would lie if I said it has'nt hurt me, my family, and my retirement planning. Does it suck, yeah big time. Am I ****ed off, absolutely! But, we dont know everyones personal situation, and peoples lives are complicated, so I repeat my original gripe. Stop slandering individuals on here by pairing/trip, anonymously, when you have no way of taking in the whole situation. And my main gripe is that of using the SC#B word, no one is helping their cause with this being aimed at our fellow dues paying ALPA voters, on this forum. If you have a gripe, call the person mono a mono, 1 V 1, with some degree of honor. I got no gripe with you dude, just the tactics you seem to endorse. Hows that for smart?

FDXLAG
02-07-2010, 05:00 AM
So you have done your research and found I have not used the s**b word and have not slandered anyone. Yet you decided to go personal on me several times. You see how hard I have tried to stay hidden. I don't think we should call out individuals either. The difference is you have empathy for the individuals called out and I have empathy for the ones hosed by 4A2b.

So it sounds like you somewhat agree flying extra helps perpetuate 4A2b.

Peace out.

bluejuice
02-07-2010, 07:00 AM
You see how hard I have tried to stay hidden.

YGTBSM. Here's some quick math for you. You joined in Nov 2006, it is now Feb 7, 2010.

3 x 365 days = 1095
Dec = 31 days
Jan = 31 days
Feb = 7 days so far for a total of 1164 days.

You now have accumulated 3,082 posts, which equates to 2.65 posts every single day. :confused:

Cannot you find something else to do other than constantly enlighten us with your perpetual wisdom?

FDXLAG
02-07-2010, 09:55 AM
YGTBSM. Here's some quick math for you. You joined in Nov 2006, it is now Feb 7, 2010.

3 x 365 days = 1095
Dec = 31 days
Jan = 31 days
Feb = 7 days so far for a total of 1164 days.

You now have accumulated 3,082 posts, which equates to 2.65 posts every single day. :confused:

Cannot you find something else to do other than constantly enlighten us with your perpetual wisdom?

The hidden comment was because it is not very hard to find my name. Someone with your math skills should have been able to figure that out. You should count the posts under my 3 other names too.

The Walrus
02-07-2010, 10:04 AM
The hidden comment was because it is not very hard to find my name. Someone with your math skills should have been able to figure that out. You should count the posts under my 3 other names too.

Actually, he is probably the only person posting on this site.:D

MD11Fr8Dog
02-07-2010, 01:22 PM
If you have a gripe, call the person mono a mono, 1 V 1, with some degree of honor. I got no gripe with you dude, just the tactics you seem to endorse. Hows that for smart?

As I stated previously, this WILL most likely get you a call from LK (yes, he is still in manglement)!

How smart is that?

MD11Fr8Dog
02-07-2010, 01:27 PM
YGTBSM. Here's some quick math for you. You joined in Nov 2006, it is now Feb 7, 2010.

3 x 365 days = 1095
Dec = 31 days
Jan = 31 days
Feb = 7 days so far for a total of 1164 days.

You now have accumulated 3,082 posts, which equates to 2.65 posts every single day. :confused:

Cannot you find something else to do other than constantly enlighten us with your perpetual wisdom?

Actually, its 2.58/day ;)

http://home.offroad.com/~md11fr8dog/FDXpostrate.jpg

FDXLAG
02-07-2010, 01:35 PM
Hey, heading to the pub for the SB now but how many do I have to post to get it up to 2.65 (yeah it short but plenty of girth). Wouldn't want to make BJ a liar. I would tell him about the ignore button but he would just think I am trying to enlighten him with perpetual wisdom.

PS That Walrus guy is upto 1.1 a day. I think he might be an MD11Fr8Dog alter ego.

MD11Fr8Dog
02-07-2010, 01:47 PM
PS That Walrus guy is upto 1.1 a day. I think he might be an MD11Fr8Dog alter ego.

That would total me up to 3.74, but its not me! ;)

PS - I got more than my daily allotment in the last 20 mins! :)

The Walrus
02-07-2010, 01:51 PM
Hey lag, at this rate I can catch up to you in 8.42 yrs.

BoxDawg
02-07-2010, 02:04 PM
So you have done your research and found I have not used the s**b word and have not slandered anyone. Yet you decided to go personal on me several times. You see how hard I have tried to stay hidden. I don't think we should call out individuals either. The difference is you have empathy for the individuals called out and I have empathy for the ones hosed by 4A2b.

So it sounds like you somewhat agree flying extra helps perpetuate 4A2b.

Peace out.

I am beginning to doubt your grasp of reality.

"The empty wagon rattles the most"

AFW_MD11
02-07-2010, 02:17 PM
.......flying extra helps perpetuate 4A2b.



wrong!! so wrong!! that's what I have been trying to get through your thick skull there "LAG"

NOTHING....I repeat.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b.

do you get that?

The ONLY reason.....ONLY reason.....4A2b is still in place is because the company "leadership" wants it to continue - period - dot!

they will never end it under OUR terms or because of anything we do or do not do. they have decided to UNILATERALLY begin and continue 4A2b.

the implementation of and continuation of 4A2b is designed to destroy our unity while saving the company millions of dollars

4A2b (including unfair distribution of flying hours) + maximized reserve utilization + manipulation of excess bids + refusal to reduce carryover

all implemented and continued during the "perfect storm" of age 65 and the worst economy in FedEx's history

(because of these two items, sadly, for the first time in FedEx's history too, we probably are properly manned vs. undermanned/lean)

The company is going to milk all these things for all they're worth. The payoff will be a divided crew force during contract negotiations with all this infighting THEY (the company) have caused.

When, and only when, THE COMPANY decides they're done 4A2b-ing us....it will end.

did I mention.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b?

THE COMPANY is doing this to US.

(please reply under your FDXLAG screen name vs. one of your other three so I know you saw this......:D)

HIFLYR
02-07-2010, 02:38 PM
wrong!! so wrong!! that's what I have been trying to get through your thick skull there "LAG"

NOTHING....I repeat.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b.

do you get that?

The ONLY reason.....ONLY reason.....4A2b is still in place is because the company "leadership" wants it to continue - period - dot!

they will never end it under OUR terms or because of anything we do or do not do. they have decided to UNILATERALLY begin and continue 4A2b.

the implementation of and continuation of 4A2b is designed to destroy our unity while saving the company millions of dollars

4A2b (including unfair distribution of flying hours) + maximized reserve utilization + manipulation of excess bids + refusal to reduce carryover

all implemented and continued during the "perfect storm" of age 65 and the worst economy in FedEx's history

(because of these two items, sadly, for the first time in FedEx's history too, we probably are properly manned vs. undermanned/lean)

The company is going to milk all these things for all they're worth. The payoff will be a divided crew force during contract negotiations with all this infighting THEY (the company) have caused.

When, and only when, THE COMPANY decides they're done 4A2b-ing us....it will end.

did I mention.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b?

THE COMPANY is doing this to US.

(please reply under your FDXLAG screen name vs. one of your other three so I know you saw this......:D)

That is B.S. if the crew force did not fly any extra, not one trip during October & November then they might have exited 4A2B for peak. O practically said in recurrent a few months back that FedEx could not operate in 4A2B mode if no one flew any extra.

AFW_MD11
02-07-2010, 03:20 PM
That is B.S. if the crew force did not fly any extra, not one trip during October & November then they might have exited 4A2B for peak. O practically said in recurrent a few months back that FedEx could not operate in 4A2B mode if no one flew any extra.

disagree.

evidently enough pilots didn't "fly extra" during Dec to cause several service failures.

did this cause the company to change anything regarding execution of 4A2b.? no. They were like - "...whatever....we ONLY had 5 service failures....success of 4A2b continues...."

I'll concede that if NO ONE flew extra, the company MIGHT be forced to re-evaluate. But, onesy-twosey individual stands are not going to cut it. It will literally take EVERYONE - not optimistic about that ever happening here. :(

Perhaps the union could take the lead on this - a grass roots effort will most likely not succeed in this perfect storm of events (economy/no retirements....)

Even if NO ONE flew extra - the company might still be able to compensate (given the current "overmanned" state) by tweaking the BLG distribution and # of reserve lines up a little - just enough to cover the anticipated need, but no more.

not required to EXIT 4A2b - just adjust up/down when needed as the ebb & flow of freight volumes rises/falls.

"O" also said there's no fatigue problem at FedEx, and that the optimizer is a myth.......??

Gunter
02-07-2010, 03:52 PM
Extra pairings are running rampant. Some Boeing crewmembers drop all their R days in hopes of filling their lines with them.

Some international charters get significantly extended after they're picked up in open time.

This is a game. 4a2b has outlasted the reason why it was invoked. Trips scheduled are minimize to set the R day values low then the flood gates open after VTO lines are built.

The efforts of relatively few are important. The few will influence some and they will impact others. Eventually there will be a large enough ripple to cause change.

Don't be fooled by claims that service failures are no big deal. They're bluffing big time. They were not happy with it. More than one month of that and 4a2b is in trouble.

iarapilot
02-07-2010, 05:30 PM
wrong!! so wrong!! that's what I have been trying to get through your thick skull there "LAG"

NOTHING....I repeat.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b.

do you get that?

The ONLY reason.....ONLY reason.....4A2b is still in place is because the company "leadership" wants it to continue - period - dot!

they will never end it under OUR terms or because of anything we do or do not do. they have decided to UNILATERALLY begin and continue 4A2b.

the implementation of and continuation of 4A2b is designed to destroy our unity while saving the company millions of dollars

4A2b (including unfair distribution of flying hours) + maximized reserve utilization + manipulation of excess bids + refusal to reduce carryover

all implemented and continued during the "perfect storm" of age 65 and the worst economy in FedEx's history

(because of these two items, sadly, for the first time in FedEx's history too, we probably are properly manned vs. undermanned/lean)

The company is going to milk all these things for all they're worth. The payoff will be a divided crew force during contract negotiations with all this infighting THEY (the company) have caused.

When, and only when, THE COMPANY decides they're done 4A2b-ing us....it will end.

did I mention.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b?

THE COMPANY is doing this to US.

(please reply under your FDXLAG screen name vs. one of your other three so I know you saw this......:D)

I have to disagree with you, sorta. While it is true that "NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b", I totally disagree that " they will never end it under OUR terms or because of anything we do or do not do". If nobody flew extra, period, and the talk around the crew room was that folks were not flying extra because of 4a2b, the Company would end it rather quickly. It would cause, IMO, to many service failure.

I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. It certainly has put a dent in what unity we might have had. They are pure geniuses! Or should I say they and their law team!

What happened to the days when the optimizer was cranked up, we got p'ed off, and GM was retired?

FDXLAG
02-07-2010, 05:38 PM
wrong!! so wrong!! that's what I have been trying to get through your thick skull there "LAG"

NOTHING....I repeat.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b.

do you get that?

The ONLY reason.....ONLY reason.....4A2b is still in place is because the company "leadership" wants it to continue - period - dot!

they will never end it under OUR terms or because of anything we do or do not do. they have decided to UNILATERALLY begin and continue 4A2b.

the implementation of and continuation of 4A2b is designed to destroy our unity while saving the company millions of dollars

4A2b (including unfair distribution of flying hours) + maximized reserve utilization + manipulation of excess bids + refusal to reduce carryover

all implemented and continued during the "perfect storm" of age 65 and the worst economy in FedEx's history

(because of these two items, sadly, for the first time in FedEx's history too, we probably are properly manned vs. undermanned/lean)

The company is going to milk all these things for all they're worth. The payoff will be a divided crew force during contract negotiations with all this infighting THEY (the company) have caused.

When, and only when, THE COMPANY decides they're done 4A2b-ing us....it will end.

did I mention.....NOTHING that any individual pilot does perpetuates 4A2b?

THE COMPANY is doing this to US.

(please reply under your FDXLAG screen name vs. one of your other three so I know you saw this......:D)

So tell me where this logic is wrong:


1. We are in 4A2b in large part because Fedex has reduced reserve and stby manning and holds extra trips out of the bidpack.

2. Fedex is counting on over-flying to cover the extra trips.

3. Overflying allows Fedex to cover the extra trips without using their depleted reserves.

4. Flying extra help Fedex maintain 4A2b. Flying extra promotes deviseness not unity. Bye bye.

Do you think the draft fairy squats, puts trips in open time and says these trip can only pay time and half? Not me, I think a trip (generally) is offered up as draft because Fred don't have the reserves to cover it.

Busboy
02-07-2010, 06:33 PM
disagree.

evidently enough pilots didn't "fly extra" during Dec to cause several service failures.

did this cause the company to change anything regarding execution of 4A2b.? no. They were like - "...whatever....we ONLY had 5 service failures....success of 4A2b continues...."

I'll concede that if NO ONE flew extra, the company MIGHT be forced to re-evaluate. But, onesy-twosey individual stands are not going to cut it. It will literally take EVERYONE - not optimistic about that ever happening here. :(

Perhaps the union could take the lead on this - a grass roots effort will most likely not succeed in this perfect storm of events (economy/no retirements....)

Even if NO ONE flew extra - the company might still be able to compensate (given the current "overmanned" state) by tweaking the BLG distribution and # of reserve lines up a little - just enough to cover the anticipated need, but no more.

not required to EXIT 4A2b - just adjust up/down when needed as the ebb & flow of freight volumes rises/falls.

"O" also said there's no fatigue problem at FedEx, and that the optimizer is a myth.......??

Delta got $320/hr because the crewforce refused to fly overtime(green sheets). There were some that were slow to agree(poop in their flight kit, etc.) and finally agreed. So did Delta's management.

ALPA was sued for not stopping it.

R1200RT
02-07-2010, 07:51 PM
Delta got $320/hr because the crewforce refused to fly overtime(green sheets). There were some that were slow to agree(poop in their flight kit, etc.) and finally agreed. So did Delta's management.

ALPA was sued for not stopping it.

yea they got 320/hr for about 2% (or less) of their crew force (777 captains), how many wide body captains do we have....... Largest wide body fleet in the world makes it harder to get the big numbers. Just saying... I think every airplane should have it's own pay rate too.

FDXLAG
02-07-2010, 07:51 PM
I am beginning to doubt your grasp of reality.

"The empty wagon rattles the most"

My bad, you don't agree that extra flying helps perpetuates 4A2b.

"Moss grows on the North side of a tree"

Busboy
02-07-2010, 07:54 PM
yea they got 320/hr for about 2% (or less) of their crew force (777 captains), how many wide body captains do we have....... Largest wide body fleet in the world makes it harder to get the big numbers. Just saying... I think every airplane should have it's own pay rate too.

You're kidding right? Do you know what their MD11 and 767 rates were? And, that was almost 10 years ago.

HazCan
02-07-2010, 10:00 PM
Still drafting tonight in ANC. Trip 108/08feb. No thank you!



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