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View Full Version : FDX - Enders/LOSA


Blackbeard
02-06-2010, 07:36 AM
Sure, operate safely. In fact being very conservative right now is the safest course. But why should we give a rat's rear end about LOSA until management releases the full Enders report?? The ill-timed MOU says it's voluntary. I say no LOSA until Enders is released. Enders remains relevant.


MaydayMark
02-06-2010, 07:46 AM
Joe Pearson came to training (recurrent) a few months ago and said he was going to "try" to get the Enders Report released ... good for him.

As far as LOSA goes, the update from the union says it's voluntary, so ... no cooperation until we get Enders :eek:

FDXFLYR
02-06-2010, 08:17 AM
I agree, they get a LOSA only after releasing the Enders report to the field. I'm not sure what I can do in the right seat other then voice my disagreement with the captain if he allows a LOSA observation, but I'll let him know about it if this happens.


FDXFLYR
02-06-2010, 08:19 AM
Maybe get some stickers made up that say: "LOSA only after Enders". I know, not very creative, just a thought.

v1 uh-oh
02-06-2010, 08:25 AM
The lawyers will NEVER let it be released.

HDawg
02-06-2010, 09:07 AM
This one will be different, now there is more trust between the pilots and management...:rolleyes:

MX727
02-06-2010, 02:01 PM
The lawyers will NEVER let it be released.

Because the legal department got skewered in the report.

kronan
02-06-2010, 06:04 PM
While I understand the emotion behind choosing to withhold participation in the LOSA until the Enders Report is released, I just don't agree with it.

To me, seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I believe that any problems/concerns voiced in the Enders report still exist. And, thus, will be discovered by the LOSA and this time we have an agreement for access to the data.

We never had access to the Enders report and can only speculate as to what it contained that Mgt didn't want us to know.
Bottom line question from me to you is-Do you think the pairings are better or worse than they were when the Enders report was compiled? Do you think the company pushes pilots more or less than when the Enders report was compiled?

IMO-the LOSA is something that can only help us. The company has previously indicated that ideally we would be operating to contract limits, not that there's any such thing as an "Optimizer".

HDawg
02-07-2010, 05:36 AM
The point, I think, is that how many people trust that the findings will be used to really improve things or more importantly that the findings won't be used for discipline. You know the "F' em let them grieve it" attitude.

AFW_MD11
02-07-2010, 06:06 AM
IMO-the LOSA is something that can only help us. The company has previously indicated that ideally we would be operating to contract limits, not that there's any such thing as an "Optimizer".

Just to clarify.....we ARE operating to contract limits (as stated by "O")

and, every chance the company gets to invoke a worldwide "operational emergency", even those limits are extended FAR beyond "contractual" - (get it F.A.R. beyond...?? :D)

Ideally, the LOSA flights will occur and be observed during a declared operational emergency - too bad the LOSA wasn't started last Friday night/Saturday morning during the ice event in MEM - now THAT woulda been some data points!!

kronan
02-07-2010, 07:59 AM
The comments will reportedly be generic in nature and screened from all identifying data, so, hard to figure out how the company could know who to discipline for violating sterile cockpit, not that anyone at FedEx would ever do anything so heinous.
Should they do so, seems like it would be a slam dunk grievance with the verbiage in the MOU.

AFW MD11. Pretty much all of my trips have a much greater rest period than required by the contract. Must suck to be you. A few of my trips approach the contractual duty limits, but most are a few hours below the maximum scheduld duty time.

Sure would be great if some LOSA trips occurred during an operational emergency. Odds are low though. I'd be willing to bet the company would avoid the possibility of any LOSA flights during PEAK.

I just wish all of the crews would operate to their limits during an Operational Emergency. Just because it's legal and contractual to extend me to FAR beyond contractual numbers, doesn't mean that I'm willing to do so. Nor do I feel an obligation to do so just because it's "permitted" in the contract. Permitted is not the same as required

Gunter
02-07-2010, 08:38 AM
That is some wise advice. I hope we all take it to heart, for safety's sake.

Unfortunately, I think some believe it's o.k. to operate in a zombie like state during an operational emergency. They must think they can't have two emergencies at once (operational and aircraft). :confused:

OKLATEX
02-07-2010, 09:01 AM
Sure, operate safely. In fact being very conservative right now is the safest course. But why should we give a rat's rear end about LOSA until management releases the full Enders report?? The ill-timed MOU says it's voluntary. I say no LOSA until Enders is released. Enders remains relevant.

I can understand your frustration. I would suggest reading the latest union email, Negotiations Update 10-01, as they say it better than I can.

This is my third airline, and the other two were smaller and had all these safety programs. I was, and still am shocked that FedEx doesn't have these programs. Things must change around here. This is the first step, change isn't easy and is harder for some.

HazCan
02-07-2010, 09:53 AM
Guys, I am as frustrated and fed up with the company's b.s. as much as anyone else. However, I don't think that this safety program is where we should be drawing the line. If anything, this is where some light can be shined on what's going on. Safety should be politics neutral (don't throw Enders in my face, I know, I know)...

As far as operational emergencies go....does it mean I am less tired because it's now an "emergency"? Is it an "emergency" just because they have thinned out the reserves and standbys too much? F that...I don't think so. If you're looking for somewhere to draw the line re:safety, this is it, not LOSA.

"Gee, I was about to go fatigued...but since you said it's an EMERGENCY, I guess I'm now safe to operate." REALLY???

FDXFLYR
02-07-2010, 11:43 AM
Light was already shone on our operations years ago by the Enders report but you can see by the Flight 80 accident that our management just doesn't get it, and I don't think they ever will. As long as PC insists upon the ability to use a safety report as the basis or supporting document for disciplinary action, we will never have the necesssary safety culture at the company.

Did you read the negotiations update where it indicates the company will let us read LOSA results only after we sign a non-disclosure agreement? I'm fine with that...just as I'm fine with signing a non-disclosure agreement on the Enders report too.

I say NO to LOSA until they publish the Enders report. We don't need any more studies, we've already been studied! Hey ALPA: tell them to publish the Enders report and let's resolve whatever was identified in there, first.

OKLATEX
02-08-2010, 06:58 AM
Light was already shone on our operations years ago by the Enders report but you can see by the Flight 80 accident that our management just doesn't get it, and I don't think they ever will. As long as PC insists upon the ability to use a safety report as the basis or supporting document for disciplinary action, we will never have the necesssary safety culture at the company.

Did you read the negotiations update where it indicates the company will let us read LOSA results only after we sign a non-disclosure agreement? I'm fine with that...just as I'm fine with signing a non-disclosure agreement on the Enders report too.

I say NO to LOSA until they publish the Enders report. We don't need any more studies, we've already been studied! Hey ALPA: tell them to publish the Enders report and let's resolve whatever was identified in there, first.

I certainly understand your frustration over the Enders report. I think it is a joke too that it was not shared.

But, let me get this straight. You feel like there should be a change here at the company. The union and company have an agreement that will hopefully start to bring change. But you plan to debate with your Captain that they shouldn't do an observation ride in the interest of Safety because we haven't seen the Enders report. If that is really the case, then you are as guilty as the company in not moving forward.

I would imagine if you look at observations from the LOSA and Enders, they may very well show the same stuff, but if this is what it takes to get change around this place, then I am all for it. The Union negotiated this as an agreement, if we don't participate, what does that say about us as a pilot group.

Someone else mentioned it, safety should not be political.

This place doesn't change easily, they like to control. That is part of the culture. As I said, change doesn't come easy for some.

FLMD11CAPT
02-08-2010, 07:26 AM
If your'e Fatigued.......make the call. THAT's the only way things will change. Besides the 1st page in the FOM clearly states that we are Professionally and Ethically bound to do so in the interest of the #1 stated priority......Safety.

FDXFLYR
02-08-2010, 07:53 AM
"But, let me get this straight. You feel like there should be a change here at the company. The union and company have an agreement that will hopefully start to bring change. But you plan to debate with your Captain that they shouldn't do an observation ride in the interest of Safety because we haven't seen the Enders report. If that is really the case, then you are as guilty as the company in not moving forward."

Safety is not the issue here. The issue, is using the only tools that are available to us to effect a change in management behavior. It falls into the same category as flying extra during times like now, when the company is taking advantage of us with 4a2b.

"I would imagine if you look at observations from the LOSA and Enders, they may very well show the same stuff, but if this is what it takes to get change around this place, then I am all for it."

I disagree that these LOSAs will effect change. They will be data gathering tools but we've done this data gathering before and nothing has changed. Basaed upon management's past behavior, why do you think this will change the way management does anything?

"The Union negotiated this as an agreement, if we don't participate, what does that say about us as a pilot group."

It says two things. First, if they want our trust and support, the Union should make concessions with management only after understanding how the field thinks about it. It indicates the Union has not changed the milktoast way it deals with management--they should have been the ones to say NO until the Enders report is released.

I think the attitude that "the union negotiated it therefore it must be blindly suported" is VERY, VERY wrong! Are you happy that our Union negotiated away pay protection when trips are dropped for training, and are you happy they never told us about that? Are you happy the scheduling grid penalty got so watered down that it is now worthless?

No, I'm not a lemming who is going to blindly follow the Union any more. Management knows a lot of our pilots have that attitude and they manpiulate us with us. We will never get what we deserve (in this case, the release of the Enders report) with that attitude.

AFW_MD11
02-08-2010, 08:37 AM
If your'e Fatigued.......make the call. THAT's the only way things will change. Besides the 1st page in the FOM clearly states that we are Professionally and Ethically bound to do so in the interest of the #1 stated priority......Safety.

You are EXACTLY right!

But, knowing that our schedules are fatiguing in nature, why don't more pilots make that fatigue call?

What is it that causes us to gut it out and rely on our fellow pilots to carry us? especially when they're probably just as tired as we are?

If YOU're tired, it is more likely than not that the other pilot(s) on your crew are too.

so....why? why do we continue to do it?? :confused:

MaydayMark
02-08-2010, 08:49 AM
You are EXACTLY right!

why don't more pilots make that fatigue call?

What is it that causes us to gut it out and rely on our fellow pilots to carry us? especially when they're probably just as tired as we are?

If YOU're tired, it is more likely than not that the other pilot(s) on your crew are too.

so....why? why do we continue to do it?? :confused:


I flew with an f/o that, when he called in fatigued from HKG, was taken off his trip. He was then d/h'd back to MEM to explain to his ACP why he wasn't properly rested for his trip!*?

Maybe that's why? That despite all the "lip-service" about safety, there's ALWAYS the threat of discipline!*? Talk all you want about union/management Safety Management Systems ... our management is hard-wired to dole out punishment at every turn.

It's really disappointing :confused::confused:

AFW_MD11
02-08-2010, 09:20 AM
I flew with an f/o that, when he called in fatigued from HKG, was taken off his trip. He was then d/h'd back to MEM to explain to his ACP why he wasn't properly rested for his trip!*?

Maybe that's why? That despite all the "lip-service" about safety, there's ALWAYS the threat of discipline!*? Talk all you want about union/management Safety Management Systems ... our management is hard-wired to dole out punishment at every turn.

It's really disappointing :confused::confused:

Maybe it's hearing stories/reports like this and fear of the unknown?

"if that happened to that guy.....what will happen to me?"

"what was the final outcome for that guy?"

"did he get fired? a discipline letter? warning letter?......???"

so......does the union represent folks during these fatigue call "interrogation" sessions? if not, why not?

if so, I can't see how the company could discipline anyone for a legit fatigue call? could they?

have they?

if the union knows that the company is going after folks that call in fatigued, then the union should be educating us regarding our rights and what, exactly, the union is doing to protect those rights.

shouldn't they?

are they?

fear of retribution for calling in fatigued should NEVER be a factor if the company is truly committed to "safety above all"

are they?

OKLATEX
02-08-2010, 10:21 AM
"But, let me get this straight. You feel like there should be a change here at the company. The union and company have an agreement that will hopefully start to bring change. But you plan to debate with your Captain that they shouldn't do an observation ride in the interest of Safety because we haven't seen the Enders report. If that is really the case, then you are as guilty as the company in not moving forward."

Safety is not the issue here. The issue, is using the only tools that are available to us to effect a change in management behavior. It falls into the same category as flying extra during times like now, when the company is taking advantage of us with 4a2b.

"I would imagine if you look at observations from the LOSA and Enders, they may very well show the same stuff, but if this is what it takes to get change around this place, then I am all for it."

I disagree that these LOSA will effect change. They will be data gathering tools but we've done this data gathering before and nothing has changed. Basaed upon management's past behavior, why do you think this will change the way management does anything?

"The Union negotiated this as an agreement, if we don't participate, what does that say about us as a pilot group."

It says two things. First, if they want our trust and support, the Union should make concessions with management only after understanding how the field thinks about it. It indicates the Union has not changed the milktoast way it deals with management--they should have been the ones to say NO until the Enders report is released.

I think the attitude that "the union negotiated it therefore it must be blindly suported" is VERY, VERY wrong! Are you happy that our Union negotiated away pay protection when trips are dropped for training, and are you happy they never told us about that? Are you happy the scheduling grid penalty got so watered down that it is now worthless?

No, I'm not a lemming who is going to blindly follow the Union any more. Management knows a lot of our pilots have that attitude and they manpiulate us with us. We will never get what we deserve (in this case, the release of the Enders report) with that attitude.


You're right, this is not about safety for YOU. This is about being upset with the company, ALPA, 4a2b, contract issues, etc.

You are entitled to your feelings, and you have some points regarding those issues. You are not expected to be a lemming while in the union. Challenge them if you don't like something. Talk to your block rep, vote, participate in the polls. Run for office. The Union is what the pilots make of it. This contract has issues, no debate. But I hope we can fix it. You don't get everything you want everytime in contracts. It takes years to build a good contract. This contract isn't perfect, but it is a start. Contract 2010 hopefully will be better, as it is the second "real" contract we have.

As far as training/pay protection, guys that I have talked to about it, love it. I guess that depends on what you want.

For me the issue IS safety. I don't expect changes with the LOSA, but I hope it is the first tiny step in making changes regarding our safety record. I hope in 5 years we can look back and see a difference. FedEx Flt Ops changes slowly. Look at fuel sense, NADP procedures and Flag Ops as an example. But, I hope they are really trying to make a change.

OKLATEX
02-08-2010, 10:24 AM
Maybe it's hearing stories/reports like this and fear of the unknown?

"if that happened to that guy.....what will happen to me?"

"what was the final outcome for that guy?"

"did he get fired? a discipline letter? warning letter?......???"

so......does the union represent folks during these fatigue call "interrogation" sessions? if not, why not?

if so, I can't see how the company could discipline anyone for a legit fatigue call? could they?

have they?

if the union knows that the company is going after folks that call in fatigued, then the union should be educating us regarding our rights and what, exactly, the union is doing to protect those rights.

shouldn't they?

are they?

fear of retribution for calling in fatigued should NEVER be a factor if the company is truly committed to "safety above all"

are they?

I wondered these things too.

I think it has been discussed here, but when you call Fatigued, the FAA get a report from the Company. Because of that report, I am sure the company wants the info because they answer to the Feds.

AFW_MD11
02-08-2010, 01:09 PM
I wondered these things too.

I think it has been discussed here, but when you call Fatigued, the FAA get a report from the Company. Because of that report, I am sure the company wants the info because they answer to the Feds.

That's fine.

In fact, the new section of our current contract, 12.A.9. dealing with fatigue allows for management to discuss the details:

12.A.9.d. In the event there are any questions about the pilotís fatigue
call, the flight manager may contact the pilot to discuss the
issue(s) further.

There's nothing in that section, however, that mentions the potential for discipline.

If the FAA is notified about a fatigue call, I'll bet they would be even more interested to hear cases where pilots had been directly intimidated and/or disciplined for making the fatigue call.

Either the intimidation/discipline is just urban legend or those cases where discipline has been applied must have warranted it?

Or.....the company, with the FAA's approval, is getting away with it - and our pilots are afraid to highlight themselves over fatigue.

Whatever the case, our pilot force is obviously very reluctant to call in fatigued.

More light needs to be shown on this process and perhaps the misconceptions can be exposed.

FDXFLYR
02-08-2010, 01:10 PM
"As far as training/pay protection, guys that I have talked to about it, love it. I guess that depends on what you want."

I don't think you understood my point. We LOST pay protection for trips that are dropped due to training. No one would ever love losing pay they used to get.

kronan
02-08-2010, 04:47 PM
But we GAINED control over when training is scheduled, which is why we LOST pay protection.

I prefer the previous contract and was willing to roll the dice with sub.

Other people I know prefer the current method and rolling the dice with CIA, or just bidding training on their days off.

Blackbeard
02-09-2010, 04:11 AM
Enders may never be released and I remain doubtful about cooperating with a LOSA request. Of course, the full-court press is coming. This LOSA program is cockpit only --- not management, scheduling or training like Enders supposedly was. Of course, if we get to bend a few ears that could be beneficial but I doubt any opinions expressed during an observation would become part of the reporting. This sounds like a clinical program. We are supposed to congratulate management on this MOU. IMO they are feeling the heat and obviously need our help. I suppose that if by fully cooperating with them on this issue gets us leverage in the coming months, it would be a good thing. It's always political. By the way, it looks like any one crewmember may decline the LOSA riders "no questions asked." Of course then you have to deal with the captain but I can tell you that, speaking as your captain, if you don't want them, it's nooooo problem.:)