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JustUnderPar
02-08-2010, 10:50 AM
UPS Starts Pilot Furlough Process


.Companies:United Parcel Service, Inc..Press Release Source: UPS On Monday February 8, 2010, 2:35 pm
LOUISVILLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--UPS (NYSE:UPS - News) today announced plans to furlough at least 300 of its airline pilots, but at the same time continued its effort to find a solution with the pilots’ union that would avert or mitigate the layoffs before they take effect. UPS employs about 2,800 pilots.

UPS has been working with its union, the Independent Pilots Association, for the past year to identify ways to cut operating costs to avoid any pilot furloughs.

Last June, the IPA identified significant savings through voluntary programs such as pilots taking short- and long-term leaves of absence; military leaves; job sharing; reduction in flight pay guarantees; early retirement, and sick bank contributions. UPS subsequently agreed it would not furlough any pilots in 2009.

The two sides have been working cooperatively ever since to identify additional cost-cutting initiatives that would eliminate the threat of layoffs entirely. Subsequent discussions have failed, however, to identify sufficient operating savings.

If the furloughs go forward, they would be phased, with the first 170 pilots receiving notices in 2010. The initial group would be furloughed in May.

“Even though the economy has begun to turn around, UPS anticipates a very gradual recovery and a continued need for belt-tightening,” said UPS Airlines President Bob Lekites. “This is a painful decision for our people, but one that is right for the on-going health of our business.

“But we haven’t given up on this process,” Lekites continued. “We continue to go well beyond our contractual obligation to seek a ‘win-win’ solution to avert furloughs.”

UPS is well recognized for its commitment to employees, and the company strives to build upon its union relationships to maintain its position as an industry leader. For example, UPS and the Teamsters have formed a Competition Committee to identify new ways of making UPS more competitive and to create jobs, both in its package operation and at UPS Freight. A similar process has been in place with the International Association of Machinists for the employees it represents who help ensure the efficient operation of the UPS network.

The pilot furloughs, if required, would be but one of many steps the company has taken over the past two years to match its resources to economic conditions. UPS has engaged in a company-wide, $1.4 billion cost-cutting effort that included a freeze on management salaries in 2009; suspension of the match for 401(k) plans; trimming capital expenditures, and retiring older aircraft.

Most recently, UPS announced on Jan. 8 it was streamlining its entire domestic U.S. small package structure, eliminating 1,800 management and administrative positions across the country.

“Companywide, we will continue to evaluate all opportunities and make adjustments as necessary to ensure our company is well-positioned to emerge stronger than ever as the economy continues to recover,” said Lekites. “We applaud our pilots for the way they’ve joined with UPS in trying to tackle this problem and hope we can identify a mutually beneficial outcome.”

UPS (NYSE: UPS - News) is the world's largest package delivery company and a global leader in supply chain and freight services. With more than a century of experience in transportation and logistics, UPS is a leading global trade expert equipped with a broad portfolio of solutions. Headquartered in Atlanta, Ga., UPS serves more than 200 countries and territories worldwide. The company can be found on the Web at UPS.com and its corporate blog can be found at upside, the UPS blog (http://www.blog.ups.com). To get UPS news direct, visit pressroom.ups.com/RSS.




Contact:
UPS AirlinesMike Mangeot, 502-329-3060orUPSNorman Black, 404-828-7593Copyright © 2010 Business Wire. All rights reserved. All the news releases provided by Business Wire are copyrighted. Any forms of copying other than an individual user's personal reference without express written permission is prohibited. Further distribution of these materials by posting, archiving in a public web site or database, or redistribution in a computer network is strictly forbidden.

.Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! All rights reserved. Privacy Policy - About Our Ads - Terms of Service - Copyright Policy - Report Problems
Quotes and other information supplied by independent providers identified on the Yahoo! Finance partner page. Quotes are updated automatically, but will be turned off after 25 minutes of inactivity. Quote data delayed 15 minutes for Nasdaq, NYSE and Amex. Real-Time continuous streaming quotes are available through our premium service. You may turn streaming quotes on or off. All information provided "as is" for informational purposes only, not intended for trading purposes or advice. Yahoo! is not an investment adviser and does not provide, endorse or review any information or data contained herein.


brownie
02-08-2010, 10:53 AM
UPS Starts Pilot Furlough Process


.Companies:United Parcel Service, Inc..Press Release Source: UPS On Monday February 8, 2010, 2:35 pm
LOUISVILLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--UPS (NYSE:UPS - News) today announced plans to furlough at least 300 of its airline pilots, but at the same time continued its effort to find a solution with the pilots’ union that would avert or mitigate the layoffs before they take effect. UPS employs about 2,800 pilots.

UPS has been working with its union, the Independent Pilots Association, for the past year to identify ways to cut operating costs to avoid any pilot furloughs.

Last June, the IPA identified significant savings through voluntary programs such as pilots taking short- and long-term leaves of absence; military leaves; job sharing; reduction in flight pay guarantees; early retirement, and sick bank contributions. UPS subsequently agreed it would not furlough any pilots in 2009.

The two sides have been working cooperatively ever since to identify additional cost-cutting initiatives that would eliminate the threat of layoffs entirely. Subsequent discussions have failed, however, to identify sufficient operating savings.

If the furloughs go forward, they would be phased, with the first 170 pilots receiving notices in 2010. The initial group would be furloughed in May.

“Even though the economy has begun to turn around, UPS anticipates a very gradual recovery and a continued need for belt-tightening,” said UPS Airlines President Bob Lekites. “This is a painful decision for our people, but one that is right for the on-going health of our business.

“But we haven’t given up on this process,” Lekites continued. “We continue to go well beyond our contractual obligation to seek a ‘win-win’ solution to avert furloughs.”

UPS is well recognized for its commitment to employees, and the company strives to build upon its union relationships to maintain its position as an industry leader. For example, UPS and the Teamsters have formed a Competition Committee to identify new ways of making UPS more competitive and to create jobs, both in its package operation and at UPS Freight. A similar process has been in place with the International Association of Machinists for the employees it represents who help ensure the efficient operation of the UPS network.

The pilot furloughs, if required, would be but one of many steps the company has taken over the past two years to match its resources to economic conditions. UPS has engaged in a company-wide, $1.4 billion cost-cutting effort that included a freeze on management salaries in 2009; suspension of the match for 401(k) plans; trimming capital expenditures, and retiring older aircraft.

Most recently, UPS announced on Jan. 8 it was streamlining its entire domestic U.S. small package structure, eliminating 1,800 management and administrative positions across the country.

“Companywide, we will continue to evaluate all opportunities and make adjustments as necessary to ensure our company is well-positioned to emerge stronger than ever as the economy continues to recover,” said Lekites. “We applaud our pilots for the way they’ve joined with UPS in trying to tackle this problem and hope we can identify a mutually beneficial outcome.”

UPS (NYSE: UPS - News) is the world's largest package delivery company and a global leader in supply chain and freight services. With more than a century of experience in transportation and logistics, UPS is a leading global trade expert equipped with a broad portfolio of solutions. Headquartered in Atlanta, Ga., UPS serves more than 200 countries and territories worldwide. The company can be found on the Web at UPS.com and its corporate blog can be found at upside, the UPS blog (http://www.blog.ups.com). To get UPS news direct, visit pressroom.ups.com/RSS.




Contact:
UPS AirlinesMike Mangeot, 502-329-3060orUPSNorman Black, 404-828-7593Copyright © 2010 Business Wire. All rights reserved. All the news releases provided by Business Wire are copyrighted. Any forms of copying other than an individual user's personal reference without express written permission is prohibited. Further distribution of these materials by posting, archiving in a public web site or database, or redistribution in a computer network is strictly forbidden.

.Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! All rights reserved. Privacy Policy - About Our Ads - Terms of Service - Copyright Policy - Report Problems
Quotes and other information supplied by independent providers identified on the Yahoo! Finance partner page. Quotes are updated automatically, but will be turned off after 25 minutes of inactivity. Quote data delayed 15 minutes for Nasdaq, NYSE and Amex. Real-Time continuous streaming quotes are available through our premium service. You may turn streaming quotes on or off. All information provided "as is" for informational purposes only, not intended for trading purposes or advice. Yahoo! is not an investment adviser and does not provide, endorse or review any information or data contained herein.

Just the first paragraph by itself means that they are not going to go thru with it.

HazCan
02-08-2010, 10:55 AM
What are the odds this is a scare tactic to squeeze you guys more?

I hope that is what is going on, I'm pulling for you guys.

Best of luck.


JustUnderPar
02-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Just the first paragraph by itself means that they are not going to go thru with it.

Hope your right brownie. Hardly comforting to someone getting a letter soon. Well see what the Union has to say.

freightretriever
02-08-2010, 11:10 AM
Just the first paragraph by itself means that they are not going to go thru with it.

Wanna bet. 170 will get a notice this week and at least 100 will hit the street in May.

CactusCrew
02-08-2010, 11:12 AM
What are the odds this is a scare tactic to squeeze you guys more?
I hope that is what is going on, I'm pulling for you guys.

Best of luck.


By HARRY R. WEBER AP Business Writer

ATLANTA February 8, 2010 (AP) The Associated Press


Shipping giant UPS is again telling its pilots they need to agree to more cost savings or the company will have to furlough at least 300 of them.

UPS made the same ultimatum to its roughly 2,800 pilots last year, but agreed to delay furloughs for at least 10 months after pilots agreed to more than two-thirds of the cost cuts the company wanted.

The two sides previously identified savings totaling roughly $90 million over three years. UPS wanted $131 million.

The earlier promise not to furlough pilots ends April 1. UPS said Monday the first group of pilots will be furloughed in May if another cost-cutting deal isn't reached.

Generally, pilots who are furloughed can be recalled to duty under certain circumstances.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 11:21 AM
Heard the letters ARE going out today.:( Does not mean they will be furloughed in May, but the letters will be sent today.

MaydayMark
02-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Very sorry to hear this. They keep holding the "F" word over our heads at Purple also (thus the illegal use of paragraph 4.a.2.b of our contract that "permits" management to pay us less than minimum guarantee).

If there is ANY good news it's that UPS is a GREAT COMPANY that will one day need more pilots and the furloughed folks will have a good job to go back to (I'm not so sure that's the case for many of our pax brethren).

320Driver
02-08-2010, 11:29 AM
I assume all my MOU contributions are cancelled, and the open time ban is in effect.

SaltyDog
02-08-2010, 11:32 AM
Wanna bet. 170 will get a notice this week and at least 100 will hit the street in May.

Squeeze play and EB test. Letters went out last time. Then canx'd. UPS hopes this divides the IPA, it goes opposite. They are using the $13 million MOU shorfall to see what they can get in exchange (maybe the FedEx deal??). I'll also bet a pretty strong IPA going into contract talks.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 11:34 AM
Reduction in force bid is already open guys!

SaltyDog
02-08-2010, 11:36 AM
I assume all my MOU contributions are cancelled, and the open time ban is in effect.

Looks like EB can announce a ban.

13.k.9 It shall be a violation of this Agreement if the Association
engages in any action to encourage or suggest to its members
that they not pick up open time or decline junior available
assignments. This language shall not be applicable during a
time of furlough or furlough announcement. Further, it shall be
a violation of this Agreement if any crewmember(s) takes any
action, individually or collectively, to discourage or interfere
with other crewmembers who desire to pick up open time or
accept junior available assignments. Nothing in the preceding
sentence shall limit an individual crewmember’s ability to voice
personal opinions.

MoosePileit
02-08-2010, 12:23 PM
HMMM, I guess mgmt isn't aloud to chime in.....

2003 all over again?

JustUnderPar
02-08-2010, 12:26 PM
Reduction in force bid is already open guys!

That was fast. Guess this was "decided" some time ago.

What is gonna be more interesting is what happens with the management situation. UPS has always argued they need managers to "manage" the union pilots. Now that they are gonna have fewer union pilots, we need......___________(more or less) management pilots. Well you fill in the blank.

Wonder how that one will look in court?

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 12:46 PM
That was fast. Guess this was "decided" some time ago.

What is gonna be more interesting is what happens with the management situation. UPS has always argued they need managers to "manage" the union pilots. Now that they are gonna have fewer union pilots, we need......___________(more or less) management pilots. Well you fill in the blank.

Wonder how that one will look in court?


I think this has been planned for a while now. Act like your negotiating, wait till open time for bid period has been picked up, release video, press release reduction in force bid all in one hour. They want in our contract, end of story! They don't care about the MOU. They want something perminant and a lower starting point for negotiations in a few years. Going to be a very interesting year around this place.

Buck92
02-08-2010, 12:50 PM
DELETED.......... questions answered by EB email this afternoon

brownie
02-08-2010, 01:08 PM
Please post your thoughts on B&G which is more secure. There are plenty of kool aid drinking mangalers cruise this page. Your thoughts and action will be monitored by ups. If you want them guessing don't post here.

SaltyDog
02-08-2010, 01:10 PM
Brownie, the ones that matter read the B&G too.
Agree with your thoughts. Don't post anything that they can come at you with legally (here or B&G)

Buck92
02-08-2010, 01:15 PM
Don't post anything that they can come at you with legally (here or B&G)

good advice. for those of us not so bright, what might that include? thanks.

SaltyDog
02-08-2010, 01:34 PM
good advice. for those of us not so bright, what might that include? thanks.

Anything not in the contract, threats to those who don't support the EB and the rest of the union, personal job actions that one may take for the rest of their career, etc. UPS will watch like a hawk. Never incriminate oneself.
Can be 100% IPA and let the EB speak for us. That is what carries the day anyway.

Cargo Man
02-08-2010, 01:35 PM
With names like "Salty" ..."Buck"...or "Brown"...etc, How could you be held legally for anything?

SlickTiger
02-08-2010, 02:14 PM
UPS has engaged in a company-wide, $1.4 billion cost-cutting effort that included a freeze on management salaries in 2009; suspension of the match for 401(k) plans; trimming capital expenditures, and retiring older aircraft.

Wow, didn't I recently read that this effort was just cancelled due to the triple 4th quater profit UPS made and the problem of having too much cash?

Been nice flying with you guys (at the last job I will ever have), see you in about 33 months or so. Until then, fly safe.

Shaggy1970
02-08-2010, 02:19 PM
For those that thought this couldn't happen ...

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 02:40 PM
For those that thought this couldn't happen ...

Flew with one of those last month. I am sure he is saying now "they will never actually furlough anyone."

gremlin
02-08-2010, 02:49 PM
It ain't over 'till its over.

- Yogi Berra

Vito
02-08-2010, 03:11 PM
I'll say this once in the interest of unity, but to all those pilots who didn't volunteer anything, Thanks! and to all the 63=64 year olds amongst us, why don't you gracefully hang up your hats and help a young family?? I mean really, why would you put yourselves through this madness/drama if you can just retire/ I really don't get it at all! Rant over, now I'll just await my orders from the EB

highsky
02-08-2010, 03:18 PM
Flew with one of those last month. I am sure he is saying now "they will never actually furlough anyone."
I've found that most of those said guys (usually age 53+) just used their denial as an excuse not to contribute to the MOU.

Those Amazing Kreskins had zero grasp on the reality of the present and future. Way to read the crystal ball, guys. Pure genius.

marcal
02-08-2010, 03:22 PM
How far back DOH wise will this go to if it actually happens?

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 03:24 PM
I think I remember him also saying last year "they'll never park the 8!"

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 03:27 PM
How far back DOH wise will this go to if it actually happens?

I think you will be looking at about Oct. 2006.

FR8TFLYER
02-08-2010, 03:44 PM
All bottom 300 call Cintas and max out your uniform points. When the uniforms come in it will be a great bond fire starter! Then sit around, get drunk and think of all the ways to pay this pathetic management team back for the rest of your career!

767pilot
02-08-2010, 04:13 PM
With names like "Salty" ..."Buck"...or "Brown"...etc, How could you be held legally for anything?

It would take a lawyer accusing pilots of a job action about 30seconds in front of a judge to get a subpoena from APC to find out who people really are

Pilot X
02-08-2010, 04:17 PM
just a thought but i don't think you really needed to give any info to join this site....truthful info at least.

you could join as drew brees and with that court order ACP will tell them they need to go after the super bowl mvp :rolleyes:

SlickTiger
02-08-2010, 04:21 PM
Just received a call from an ACP confirming that my letter along with 53 more went out today. :rolleyes:

Brian Wilson
02-08-2010, 04:29 PM
just a thought but i don't think you really needed to give any info to join this site....truthful info at least.

you could join as drew brees and with that court order ACP will tell them they need to go after the super bowl mvp :rolleyes:

Until they obtain the IP addresses on your account. They could track you right to your house. How do you think they sue people for software piracy. It is truly frightening what information can be obtained with computers. Anyway I have a good friend who is in the bottom 300. Good Luck to all hoping it won't happen.

notadog
02-08-2010, 04:45 PM
I've found that most of those said guys (usually age 53+) just used their denial as an excuse not to contribute to the MOU.

Those Amazing Kreskins had zero grasp on the reality of the present and future. Way to read the crystal ball, guys. Pure genius.

I guess you still don't get it. We could have "saved" $150 million. This isn't about "savings".

It's about a run at the contract.

FrontSeat
02-08-2010, 04:47 PM
Just received a call from an ACP confirming that my letter along with 53 more went out today. :rolleyes:

When they call just say the words FOXTROT UNIFORM...repeat over and over until they hang up

767pilot
02-08-2010, 04:50 PM
When they call just say the words FOXTROT UNIFORM...repeat over and over until they hang up

Don't forget to ask him how many of them are being shown the door

Gunter
02-08-2010, 05:47 PM
Just received a call from an ACP confirming that my letter along with 53 more went out today. :rolleyes:

I didn't think it could happen. A solidly profitable company that will pay bonuses to management in 2010 is letting pilots go due to financial hardship. Our former MEC Chair deserves some of the blame for retro.

UPS management should stop claiming they are working with the labor groups and are people oriented (that's what they said in their press release). Who do they think they're kidding? They're the exact opposite. They've gone old school, decided against the MOU and chose to put guys on the street.

I'll soon be on the horn to family and friends to tell them to avoid shipping via UPS until they stop putting the smack down on labor.

I hope it is a short furlough.

Skymaster
02-08-2010, 06:00 PM
You know what they say about "Karma"............

ThreeSides
02-08-2010, 06:26 PM
I guess you still don't get it. We could have "saved" $150 million. This isn't about "savings".

It's about a run at the contract.

The supposition is that the furlough saves the company $244,000,000. The MOU promises less than $140 million. The CEO doesn't know how to do anything other than compare the numbers. He has the body count to prove it.

I happen to agree with you that they would like a run at the contract, but they seem to be interested in things that would exacerbate the overstaffing problem - PBS for instance.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-08-2010, 06:40 PM
You know what they say about "Karma"............

Oh boy, a DHL pilot chiming in.

727C47
02-08-2010, 06:46 PM
so very sorry to hear this

Tigerpilot1995
02-08-2010, 07:18 PM
My EB speaks for me.

100% IPA
Fly Safe

hockeypilot44
02-08-2010, 07:33 PM
Up until about 8 years ago, UPS and Fedex paid about the same as all the legacies. Unfortunately, every single legacy has had their pay brought way down. It seems the Fedex and UPS management want to bring their pilots' pay back in line with the legacies. It's harder for them to file bankruptcy so they need to get their concessions in different ways. It seems to me this is one of the ways Every single pilot contract affects every single pilot indirectly.

Busdrivr
02-08-2010, 08:19 PM
Up until about 8 years ago, UPS and Fedex paid about the same as all the legacies. Unfortunately, every single legacy has had their pay brought way down. It seems the Fedex and UPS management want to bring their pilots' pay back in line with the legacies. It's harder for them to file bankruptcy so they need to get their concessions in different ways. It seems to me this is one of the ways Every single pilot contract affects every single pilot indirectly.

It's my expectation that we here at FedEx will not be negotiating a concessionary contract this fall. The Company is doing well in this economy, and most of us also expect to do well, as well.

VegasBoy
02-08-2010, 08:44 PM
100%IPA
My EB speaks for me.

FrontSeat
02-08-2010, 08:59 PM
Not to worry UPS, I have 30 years left for you to "pay me back".
300 who just joined the '88 club.

100% IPA

88's had pay checks and were not left in ANC during a time with no jobs to be had,,,the 300 will go through worse and deserve better then to be grouped into the 88's. I bet you will find that those 800 pilots who did not contribute to the MOU were mostly 88's.

The 300 deserve better

Road Dawg
02-09-2010, 02:11 AM
Oh boy, a DHL pilot chiming in.

What a bunch of crap, you bust your behind, give them a great peak, they claim records, then they announce a garbage contract to the mechanics that they claim is the best, then the announce 100Mil in raises to the management people, 2.5% and they all pounce like a drowning man to a straw, they all grovel at the feet of superiors, but they all hate the place, then they lay off the very people that make it happen, they make lives for the frontline management folks so tough, divorce and prozac are rampant. Just remember the world is round and what goes around comes around.
Good Luck to all.
I got out last year, with my life.....
RD.

CactusCrew
02-09-2010, 03:08 AM
Up until about 8 years ago, UPS and Fedex paid about the same as all the legacies. Unfortunately, every single legacy has had their pay brought way down. It seems the Fedex and UPS management want to bring their pilots' pay back in line with the legacies. It's harder for them to file bankruptcy so they need to get their concessions in different ways. It seems to me this is one of the ways Every single pilot contract affects every single pilot indirectly.


Understatement of the year ... $750 million in 4th quarter profits

viperdriver
02-09-2010, 04:42 AM
Interesting PR department.

2 headlines this week
We have so much cash we dont know what to do with it all.
We have to furlough.

Gunter
02-09-2010, 06:50 AM
This one is my favorite -

"UPS is well recognized for its commitment to employees, and the company strives to build upon its union relationships"

What they really mean -

"UPS is well recognized for its commitment to keeping employees down and uses hardball tactics to build and maintain this confrontational relationship."

freightretriever
02-09-2010, 08:05 AM
and the certified mail has arrived:mad:

UPSFO4LIFE
02-09-2010, 08:25 AM
Frame it and never forget how important UPS thinks you are. Remember this quote from the paper for the rest of your career!


"UPS is well recognized for its commitment to employees, and the company strives to build upon its union relationships"

yamahas3
02-09-2010, 09:23 AM
Thanks, Age 65!

How many pilots past 60 are at UPS right now? More/less than 170? 300?

HazCan
02-09-2010, 09:39 AM
Dear Over 60 Pilots...

Get a clue, take a hint. Hit the road.

turkeydrvr
02-09-2010, 10:09 AM
Dear Over 60 Pilots...

Get a clue, take a hint. Hit the road.

C'mon,

This is not the road we want to go down right now. The over 60 folks are not the issue. Terrible management is. At UPS we can minimize damage if we stay united. Please focus your anger where it belongs..... at the company

Roberto
02-09-2010, 10:20 AM
Thanks, Age 65! How many pilots past 60 are at UPS right now? More/less than 170? 300?

All of the 300 were hired after ICAO in March 2006 voted to change the age effective in November 2006. One could postulate that had UPS been more tuned in to what was going on in Congress, they would not have hired in 2006 and 2007. However, I think that it is better to have been hired and furloughed than not to have been hired at all. I will not be surprised if the furlough is limited and short, if it does indeed come to pass. Some have postulated that the main benefit is to have the RIF (Reduction in force) displacement rules in place to absorb the DC8 folks. That would substantially reduce the training load and realign the fleets with the least pain --- to UPS.

FR8TFLYER
02-09-2010, 10:28 AM
Well I hope the over 60 guys can find their glasses and read the letter from BT about the OT/JA ban and abide by it. Only of course if they can afford to!

cessnapilot
02-09-2010, 10:37 AM
Thanks, Age 65!

How many pilots past 60 are at UPS right now? More/less than 170? 300?

The age 65 law hurt me as much as anyone. It wasn't the pilots fault... it was congress. They made the law.

We had MOU savings and we were within 10% of what they wanted. It's the choice of UPS to ignore those potential savings and choose not to work together with the union in crafting a solution that helps everyone. To open the contract is a complete failure... it only goes one way, to the company. We saw this with UAL, DAL, NWA, etc... you don't get stuff back. Hopefully the opentime ban impacts some flights and FedEx makes some sales calls. UPS could NOT CARE LESS about its employees. At least they made a lot of money and reinstated management bonuses... they need those guys happy to pick up the slack.
cp

FrontSeat
02-09-2010, 10:41 AM
UPS could care less about its employees.
cp

Could NOT care less

weatherman
02-09-2010, 10:47 AM
We had MOU savings and we were within 10% of what they wanted.

ups will not realize any of those savings after the faa changes the rest rules in april. extra pilots will be needed to staff the airline, and the company will not be able to offer any more rdgs or loas, thus no savings.

ups now has to try to get the savings another way.

cessnapilot
02-09-2010, 10:49 AM
Could NOT care less

thanks... fixed it! Could you imagine people left good jobs, moved to SDF, then to ANC, then back to SDF... and the company wouldn't help them out with a 10% shortfall? They could have taken the savings and then furloughed in a year if more money didn't come in... I was certainly misled in my interview.
cp

FR8TFLYER
02-09-2010, 10:50 AM
As a future UPS furloughee I will now go out of my way to not use UPS to ship or recieve anything. All will be via USPS or FEDEX if possible. Already had my wifes company switch to purple, great service and actually less expensive.

golfandfly
02-09-2010, 11:10 AM
cessnapilot,

Many of these over 60 guys were the very ones that lobbied Congress to change the age. Many of these same people will be lobbying for a change to age 67 or so. It is the law and they now have every right to stay, but that doesn't mean you have to like them.....

Buck92
02-09-2010, 11:15 AM
C'mon,

This is not the road we want to go down right now. The over 60 folks are not the issue. Terrible management is. At UPS we can minimize damage if we stay united. Please focus your anger where it belongs..... at the company

Agreed. My only beef with an >60 under current circumstances is if he violates OT/JA ban. That's the same beef I'd have with a <60 guy (whether or not a MOU contributor). Time for >60 policy debate/MOU contribution arm twisting is over. Let's focus on unity and taking every contractual step to mitigate furlough benefit to the company. RIF bids can certainly help if it means more training events. Consider how a new airplane/new routes might improve your life (you can always change before the bid is closed). :o

yamahas3
02-09-2010, 11:35 AM
There needs to be a contractual requirement that if furloughs occur, those above Age 60 go first.

ThreeSides
02-09-2010, 11:36 AM
Some have postulated that the main benefit is to have the RIF (Reduction in force) displacement rules in place to absorb the DC8 folks. That would substantially reduce the training load and realign the fleets with the least pain --- to UPS.
The flaw in your logic is that as soon as the company said "furlough" MOU savings went away. I'm not positive, but I believe that's at least $100,000,000 that they will now never get. If they run the RIF, and then don't furlough, or only for a short time as you suggest, they will not get the $244,000,000 either.

It has been suggested that the company is fishing for contract concessions. I agree. When we stand strong and give none, UPS will put the hostages on furlough. It's that simple.

A smart union would have a plan and an array of support services for the soon to be furloughed hostages.

CheyDogFlies
02-09-2010, 12:38 PM
It has been suggested that the company is fishing for contract concessions. I agree.

If you read between the lines in the Louisville newspaper, BT seemed to indicate that specifically the company wanted a 13.5% pay reduction, which equates to a 10 hour RDG, or "4a2b" situation much like FDX.

(for the entire Union?)--I think so.

notadog
02-09-2010, 01:13 PM
As a future UPS furloughee I will now go out of my way to not use UPS to ship or recieve anything. All will be via USPS or FEDEX if possible. Already had my wifes company switch to purple, great service and actually less expensive.

Great idea. Encourage your friends and neighbors to do so, too.

That ought to help get the furloughees back sooner.

***...

ThreeSides
02-09-2010, 01:28 PM
If you read between the lines in the Louisville newspaper, BT seemed to indicate that specifically the company wanted a 13.5% pay reduction, which equates to a 10 hour RDG, or "4a2b" situation much like FDX.

(for the entire Union?)--I think so.

I'm sure that's not all they wanted.

Again, my main point being that the union needs to tell these soon to be furloughees exactly what support programs they can expect: cobra? Job search assistance? Counseling, credit or otherwise? Emergency mortgage assistance? None of the above? Other?
Preferably, our new leadership needs to get their collective keisters up to Anchorage, and look the furloughees in the eye when they do that.

jetlaggy
02-09-2010, 01:31 PM
The flaw in your logic is that as soon as the company said "furlough" MOU savings went away. I'm not positive, but I believe that's at least $100,000,000 that they will now never get. If they run the RIF, and then don't furlough, or only for a short time as you suggest, they will not get the $244,000,000 either.

Many that gave MOU savings made other "comittments" and therefore will have to follow thru with the leave, so UPS will not lose as much of the MOU savings as u think.

Roberto
02-09-2010, 01:40 PM
Great idea. Encourage your friends and neighbors to do so, too.

That ought to help get the furloughees back sooner.

Are you thinking that less business means we need more pilots?

CactusCrew
02-09-2010, 01:48 PM
Are you thinking that less business means we need more pilots?

Apparently so, peak was better than expected and furloughs are the result ?

:rolleyes:

I know the point that you are trying to make. But if there is one thing that is PLAINLY obvious, unless it absolutely positively has to go by air, it won't help maintain pilot jobs.

Our business could double in the next year, but if it doesn't have to travel by air, we will continue to furlough.

Unless of course we open up our wallets (contract) and donate to our benovelent employer so they can maintain profitability. Yeah, pass that koolaide ... NOT !

:eek:

ThreeSides
02-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Many that gave MOU savings made other "comittments" and therefore will have to follow thru with the leave, so UPS will not lose as much of the MOU savings as u think.

Good point. For argument sake, let's say that applies to all of the mil leave people. I would get you the exact number, but it's been pulled down from the website, so let's guess on the high side that's worth 70 mil. My math says they still furlough. Any bets on atlanta's math?

Fishfreighter
02-09-2010, 01:55 PM
The age 65 law hurt me as much as anyone. It wasn't the pilots fault... it was congress. They made the law.

Wrong. You want to blame anyone, blame ICAO. ICAO changed the standard over the objections of the U.S., France and a couple other countries. Given the Supremecy Clause of the Constitution, Congress had no real option but to conform to the ICAO standard or leave ICAO.

It is the law and they now have every right to stay, but that doesn't mean you have to like them.....

There needs to be a contractual requirement that if furloughs occur, those above Age 60 go first.

I'm assuming BOTH of you will be retiring on your 60th birthday, since that was the law the day you began flying.

yamahas3
02-09-2010, 02:06 PM
Wrong. You want to blame anyone, blame ICAO. ICAO changed the standard over the objections of the U.S., France and a couple other countries. Given the Supremecy Clause of the Constitution, Congress had no real option but to conform to the ICAO standard or leave ICAO.





I'm assuming BOTH of you will be retiring on your 60th birthday, since that was the law the day you began flying.

I plan on retiring well before my 60th birthday, but should I have to stay beyond it, it will be due to the fact that the Age 65 rule paused my career progression by 5 years.

I will be, potentially, on furlough for 5 more years because of Age 65 than I would've had it still be Age 60. In fact, I'd probably still have a job had it not been for Age 65... which I consider to be one of the most selfish acts ever done by a group of pilots. Age 65'ers are sticking around because they couldn't plan appropriately or because they want to be able to afford that vacation home, while those on furlough are worried about how they're going to put food on the table.

They got their entire career to benefit from those retiring at 60 ahead of them. They got the seniority, the ability to move up, the furlough protection, etc. Now they get 5 more years at the top at the expense of everyone below them... myself and thousands others get 5 more years on furlough.

turkeydrvr
02-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Yamaha,

This is exactly what the company wants...blame the others in your own group, hate the union, etc. Please don't fall for it. Remain united, let the EB work this out. Your frustration at a law that changed will do nothing to reverse it. The EB is working on your behalf. I'm truly sorry that is is playing out this way, but UPS is doing this. They are not losing money and the business is sound. They could be taking in more flying, making more money and choose not to do so. That is the company we work for.

DLax85
02-09-2010, 02:48 PM
...Given the Supremecy Clause of the Constitution, Congress had no real option but to conform to the ICAO standard or leave ICAO....

I don't believe that's how ICAO works ---- countries can (and often do) publish where their policies, rules & regulations differ from ICAO and remain an ICAO member.

This happens on many levels.

notadog
02-09-2010, 03:57 PM
Are you thinking that less business means we need more pilots?

You do get the concept of sarcasm, right?

No. I am thinking that less volume and less profit means we need less pilots.

Keep your business away from your employer. Genius.

CheyDogFlies
02-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Any bets on atlanta's math?

My bet is on whether they furlough or not, recall early or not, come to a non-furlough agreement or not...
The spin will say the company made many of hundreds of millions over their decision, no matter how many millions they may actually gain or lose.

Fishfreighter
02-09-2010, 04:57 PM
I don't believe that's how ICAO works ---- countries can (and often do) publish where their policies, rules & regulations differ from ICAO and remain an ICAO member.

This happens on many levels.

Google the Supremecy Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

golfandfly
02-09-2010, 05:14 PM
fishfreighter,

I will be retired at or before 60. Bank on it.

J Dawg
02-09-2010, 05:43 PM
Well I hope the over 60 guys can find their glasses and read the letter from BT about the OT/JA ban and abide by it. Only of course if they can afford to!

I agree; but having said that, the only word of a JA/OT ban from the union was in the middle of a long email letter. I'm wondering why it doesn't say..

OPEN TIME/JA BAN IN EFFECT

...at the top of the IPA homepage???

Roberto
02-09-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't believe that's how ICAO works ---- countries can (and often do) publish where their policies, rules & regulations differ from ICAO and remain an ICAO member...

True, the USA did not have to agree to let its pilots fly beyond 60.

However, as a member of ICAO, the USA could not restrict other countries' airlines from flying into the USA with over-60 pilots (including over-60 U.S. citizen pilots). This was one of the main points that made it possible to gain over 360 co-sponsors in Congress to change the age (I doubt if there has ever been legislation with more co-sponsers signed on). The only reason it didn't happen sooner was the influence of ALPA with some key members of Congress. From what I heard, ALPA was ultimately told to board the train if they wanted a say in the legislation or it was going to leave without them.

DLax85
02-09-2010, 05:46 PM
Google the Supremecy Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

The Supremacy Clause states that the US Constitution and Federal Statues are the Supreme Laws of the Land (i.e. can't be overruled even if a state law conflicts).

It certainly doesn't state the U.S. must follow ICAO rules blindly.

Under ICAO, each member state is allowed to list those portions of ICAO rules and procedures they don't recognize in their airspace.

Member states still have sovereignty.

golfandfly
02-09-2010, 05:53 PM
Good luck UPS guys, hopefully some of the old guys will retire....

Freightpuppy
02-09-2010, 06:00 PM
As a future UPS furloughee I will now go out of my way to not use UPS to ship or recieve anything. All will be via USPS or FEDEX if possible. Already had my wifes company switch to purple, great service and actually less expensive.

Thanks for helping your fellow pilots out. Don't forget, a lot of us helped out with the MOU and we would like to have a job too. I have been bummed out all day because of this announcement and I am not in the bottom 500 even. I feel so bad for all the guys/gals getting furloughed. You are not going to hurt the people that made this decision....in the end, these actions will hurt other fellow co-workers that had nothing to do with this.

Freightpuppy
02-09-2010, 06:05 PM
I'm assuming BOTH of you will be retiring on your 60th birthday, since that was the law the day you began flying.

I'd love to leave at 45. Can we lobby for that?

757upspilot
02-09-2010, 06:43 PM
88's had pay checks and were not left in ANC during a time with no jobs to be had,,,the 300 will go through worse and deserve better then to be grouped into the 88's. I bet you will find that those 800 pilots who did not contribute to the MOU were mostly 88's.

The 300 deserve better

You have got to be a management pilot.

Xtwinbeechguy
02-09-2010, 07:23 PM
Thanks for helping your fellow pilots out. Don't forget, a lot of us helped out with the MOU and we would like to have a job too. I have been bummed out all day because of this announcement and I am not in the bottom 500 even. I feel so bad for all the guys/gals getting furloughed. You are not going to hurt the people that made this decision....in the end, these actions will hurt other fellow co-workers that had nothing to do with this.
Thanks for helping out with the MOU, I appreciate anyone who gave. The truth is that being in the bottom 600 you're life is about to change dramatically if this furlough actually happens. I'm still hanging on to a little hope that it won't ultimately happen, but I'm not mad at anyone, just the situation.
I guess I'll start job shopping once the dust starts to settle in a couple weeks, but lets hope for something good.

The Walrus
02-09-2010, 07:30 PM
A furlough is always a tough pill to swallow; our thoughts and prayers to all affected. Out of curiosity, what is the date of hire of the most senior of the 300?

CheyDogFlies
02-09-2010, 07:39 PM
A furlough is always a tough pill to swallow; our thoughts and prayers to all affected. Out of curiosity, what is the date of hire of the most senior of the 300?

10/3/2006 hire

Swedish Blender
02-09-2010, 10:48 PM
View Overstream: 'Hitler' (http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=m1mtirnuede6)

fishalaska
02-09-2010, 11:08 PM
What ever happened to maximum week on/week off lines that we gave so much for in the last contract. This question is not about QOL, but the fact this is not enforced must be at least 100+ pilot positions. The IPA and UPS said that a 10% efficiency in scheduling resulted from the computer designed lines and that is 280 guys. That sounds real close to the 300.

We have been tolerating the lack of electronic trip trades forever and now an et al grievance is in the system. Is failure to enforce week on/week off line construction leading to part of the overstaffing/furlough letters?

Fish/300

fishalaska
02-09-2010, 11:12 PM
Everyone in the IPA should COPY the open time lists and see who flies it.
Trip trading for more credit is PICKING UP OPEN TIME!!!
Pro Standards accepts phone calls.

cessnapilot
02-10-2010, 12:21 AM
Wrong. You want to blame anyone, blame ICAO. ICAO changed the standard over the objections of the U.S., France and a couple other countries. Given the Supremecy Clause of the Constitution, Congress had no real option but to conform to the ICAO standard or leave ICAO.

I'm very familiar with the supremacy clause, and it has nothing to do with ICAO rules.
cp

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 02:48 AM
Thanks for helping out with the MOU, I appreciate anyone who gave. The truth is that being in the bottom 600 you're life is about to change dramatically if this furlough actually happens. I'm still hanging on to a little hope that it won't ultimately happen, but I'm not mad at anyone, just the situation.
I guess I'll start job shopping once the dust starts to settle in a couple weeks, but lets hope for something good.

Dude, you don't have to thank me. It was a no brainer.....it was the right thing to do. Yeah, I think it will affect more than the bottom 600. Going to ANC won't be great but I feel like it might not be that bad....I'm already looking at 2 weeks of reserve in SDF. Besides for the commute, I've debated bidding ANC anyways. I just feel bad for anyone getting furloughed and highly dissappointed the MOU didn't work out. It didn't have to be this way.

FliFast
02-10-2010, 05:23 AM
Everyone in the IPA should COPY the open time lists and see who flies it.
Trip trading for more credit is PICKING UP OPEN TIME!!!
Pro Standards accepts phone calls.

Fish, I am shoulder to shoulder with you on the open time ban/JA ban. I'm not sure I agree with you on trip trades.

If someone trades a trip to get days off for a daughter's birthday, a doctors appointment, an anniversary or whatever it still takes a trip from open time and replaces it with another (usually a crappier one). The burden to fly a single trip is still placed on the company and their ability to cover flights.

I welcome your difference of opinion, but I don't see how a one-for-one trip trade is the same as picking up open time nor do I see how it helps the company staffing.

Bottom 300 also,
FF

FliFast
02-10-2010, 05:35 AM
Thanks for helping out with the MOU, I appreciate anyone who gave. The truth is that being in the bottom 600 you're life is about to change dramatically if this furlough actually happens. I'm still hanging on to a little hope that it won't ultimately happen, but I'm not mad at anyone, just the situation.
I guess I'll start job shopping once the dust starts to settle in a couple weeks, but lets hope for something good.

As a tag-on, the effect of a furlough will be farther reaching than just the bottom 600. Junior Capts will lose their seat, moving to a new domicile will be a fact of life, lineholders that could direct-report to trips, will now have to deadhead as scheduled when they can only hold reserve, and unfortunately (from seeing it at 4 other furloughs) working at UPS will become quite miserable.

Many will say, that this place is the worst job they ever worked at...all are entitled to their opinion even those who have not worked anywhere else. However, I content that this "belt-tightening" excercise in the face of extraordinary profits, bonuses, and reinstatement of raises will markedly reduce the quality of the job and morale.

We all can see the obvious coincidence between a 33 month furlough and the remaining months on the collective bargaining agreement and the ability to amend it.

Hopefully intelligence, foresight, and shrewdness will prevail and this excercise will be called off and the focus on cooperatively making money and becoming an industry leader will resume.

Just my two cents, your opinion may vary,
FF

FliFast
02-10-2010, 05:39 AM
You have got to be a management pilot.


Just curious, since I did not detect sarcasm...why do you think the poster is a Mangler ?

FF

fishalaska
02-10-2010, 05:48 AM
Fish, I am shoulder to shoulder with you on the open time ban/JA ban. I'm not sure I agree with you on trip trades.

If someone trades a trip to get days off for a daughter's birthday, a doctors appointment, an anniversary or whatever it still takes a trip from open time and replaces it with another (usually a crappier one). The burden to fly a single trip is still placed on the company and their ability to cover flights.

I welcome your difference of opinion, but I don't see how a one-for-one trip trade is the same as picking up open time nor do I see how it helps the company staffing.

Bottom 300 also,
FF


I totally agree about QOL trades which naturally result in a little more or less to your line and this should continue. We do not need to self inflict wounds. My thought is many trades involve a small drop and a larger pickup. Specifically in days and not necessary hours. An example is trading a three day for a five day trip. Maybe I am wrong, but this makes one person "produce" more thereby needing fewer people. Staffing is not based solely upon block hours, but rather upon putting a person in the plane at a certain time which requires them to not be on the schedule someplace else. If they are gone when they should be at home, then someone else is sitting at home without a job.

My 2 cents
Fish

FrontSeat
02-10-2010, 06:30 AM
You have got to be a management pilot.

Nope, I am about 100 from the bottom. What I am saying is that to compare a guy on the street with no paycheck to an 88 who was receiving a paycheck is not right.

It is a much harder life to not be paid then to be an 88 who was paid. You don't agree? And most of the 88's were captains shortly after being hired. If I ever come back to this place I am looking at 15 years or longer to be a lower 48 captain. maybe 13 in ANC.

L'il J.Seinfeld
02-10-2010, 06:39 AM
As a tag-on, the effect of a furlough will be farther reaching than just the bottom 600. Junior Capts will lose their seat, moving to a new domicile will be a fact of life, lineholders that could direct-report to trips, will now have to deadhead as scheduled when they can only hold reserve, and unfortunately (from seeing it at 4 other furloughs) working at UPS will become quite miserable.

Many will say, that this place is the worst job they ever worked at...all are entitled to their opinion even those who have not worked anywhere else. However, I content that this "belt-tightening" excercise in the face of extraordinary profits, bonuses, and reinstatement of raises will markedly reduce the quality of the job and morale.

We all can see the obvious coincidence between a 33 month furlough and the remaining months on the collective bargaining agreement and the ability to amend it.

Hopefully intelligence, foresight, and shrewdness will prevail and this excercise will be called off and the focus on cooperatively making money and becoming an industry leader will resume.

Just my two cents, your opinion may vary,
FF

With the RIF languague UPS is about to send some relatively senior DC-8 folks to ANC, unless I misunderstand it completely. The suck factor will be spread all across our seniority list (although it's worst for the ones furloughed.)

FrontSeat
02-10-2010, 06:40 AM
Many will say, that this place is the worst job they ever worked at...

I have towed banners
Single engine freight cessnas
corporate on turbo props out of TEB for almost nothing
piece of crap lear charter for almost nothing
nice gulfstream charter for awesome money
Atlas Air for almost nothing
UAL for many years only to have a good 10 months of pay
Countless other charter and corporate jobs

And now UPS.

21 years since I have taken my commercial checkride. I can honestly say UPS is the worst employer I have ever come across.

It is blood money.......
Currently looking for a better position, life is too short to have to work for
a s s "holes"

Naven
02-10-2010, 07:25 AM
With the RIF languague UPS is about to send some relatively senior DC-8 folks to ANC, unless I misunderstand it completely. The suck factor will be spread all across our seniority list (although it's worst for the ones furloughed.)
The way I read the reduction in force language the DC8 guys will get to stay in domicile (SDF) and bump the junior captains in SDF to ANC if they want.

CactusCrew
02-10-2010, 07:40 AM
The way I read the reduction in force language the DC8 guys will get to stay in domicile (SDF) and bump the junior captains in SDF to ANC if they want.

I "think" that I agree. But they do NOT get to exercise their seniority rights and bid the a/c of THEIR choice. But rather they will displace the most junior Capt on recently qualified equipment in present domicile OR displace the most junior Capt in present domicile.


BWTFDIK

UPSFO4LIFE
02-10-2010, 07:44 AM
No matter what, there are going to be lots and lots of unhappy people here for a while. There will be those who thought they were safe from ANC that end up in ANC. More than the bottom 600(those not furloughed) will have very negative QOL issues to contend with. You are also going to be puting people in ANC, including myself, that were hired here before ANC was a base. Morale is not only going to be low, it's going to be off the chart low. Any goodwill I ever had for UPS is now gone. Let's not forget the top 10%, we have something for you too. Can you say stuffing the lines with trips that would be in opentime otherwise? They are gonna try to get every minute, hour, and second out of everyone!

On a side note, it appears we already have opentime *****s out there. Looks like a senior Captain picked up a trip last night for March. Makes you feel great doesn't it!

Fishfreighter
02-10-2010, 07:49 AM
The Supremacy Clause states that the US Constitution and Federal Statues are the Supreme Laws of the Land (i.e. can't be overruled even if a state law conflicts).

I guess you only read the parts you want to see:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

What the red part means is that Congress had to make our laws congruent with the ICAO treaty or vacate it. Why do you think Age 65 passed so quickly? Because a few pilots lobbied for it? Nonsense.

It was because ICAO went to 65, pure and simple.

FDX28
02-10-2010, 08:02 AM
I guess you only read the parts you want to see:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

What the red part means is that Congress had to make our laws congruent with the ICAO treaty or vacate it. Why do you think Age 65 passed so quickly? Because a few pilots lobbied for it? Nonsense.

It was because ICAO went to 65, pure and simple.

hmmmmm...... nonsense you say...... :rolleyes:

From FAA's Age 60 Rule Homepage (http://www.age60rule.com)
The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) is a treaty association among sovereign nations (member States). As sovereigns, each member State (e.g., the U.S.) can make any rule for its own carriers and pilots - to apply world-wide. However, the ICAO treaty requires that a member State (i.e., the U.S.) may not impose a more restrictive rule than the ICAO standard on foreign carriers (and their pilots) operating in their respective national airspace.
The ICAO "age 60" standard is an enforceable limit of age 60 for PIC (pilots in command), but only a recommended maximum age 60 limit for co-pilots. These rules appear as paragrpahs 2.1.10.1 (captains) and 2.1.10.2 (co-pilots) in a document titled "Annex 1 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation." (Annex 1)

CheyDogFlies
02-10-2010, 08:35 AM
You two are about to make me vomit. Can you start another thread? We've got serious business happening here...

hmmmmm...... nonsense you say...... :rolleyes:

From FAA's Age 60 Rule Homepage (http://www.age60rule.com)
The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) is a treaty association among sovereign nations (member States). As sovereigns, each member State (e.g., the U.S.) can make any rule for its own carriers and pilots - to apply world-wide. However, the ICAO treaty requires that a member State (i.e., the U.S.) may not impose a more restrictive rule than the ICAO standard on foreign carriers (and their pilots) operating in their respective national airspace.
The ICAO "age 60" standard is an enforceable limit of age 60 for PIC (pilots in command), but only a recommended maximum age 60 limit for co-pilots. These rules appear as paragrpahs 2.1.10.1 (captains) and 2.1.10.2 (co-pilots) in a document titled "Annex 1 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation." (Annex 1)

Buck92
02-10-2010, 09:26 AM
Just got the call from ANC. "We're trying to be creative and help in any way we can." What a professional operation... Thanks :mad:

freightretriever
02-10-2010, 09:28 AM
On a side note, it appears we already have opentime *****s out there. Looks like a senior Captain picked up a trip last night for March. Makes you feel great doesn't it!

I pretty much figured the open time ban would completely fall apart within a month or so......but wow, it's already started. I would look for our 10% here to be more like 28% (800/2819 - now where would that number come from???)

UPSFO4LIFE
02-10-2010, 09:34 AM
Very sad in my book. I know all the facts are not in, but the trip was in opentime last night and it is now gone, and the Capt. has a PO next to his name, it don't look good. I really hope the union does something about this if this did occure. It is not a sick pickup or trade, but straight pick-up. I feel sorry for the FO that has to fly with this guy for the week!

v2plus25
02-10-2010, 09:38 AM
Wouldn't a sick pickup also be considered a pickup?

JustUnderPar
02-10-2010, 09:40 AM
Just got the call from ANC. "We're trying to be creative and help in any way we can." What a professional operation... Thanks :mad:


Just curious.....who called?

757upspilot
02-10-2010, 09:40 AM
Just curious, since I did not detect sarcasm...why do you think the poster is a Mangler ?

FF
Because he is doing exactly what management wants, attacking another pilot.

757upspilot
02-10-2010, 09:48 AM
Very sad in my book. I know all the facts are not in, but the trip was in opentime last night and it is now gone, and the Capt. has a PO next to his name, it don't look good. I really hope the union does something about this if this did occure. It is not a sick pickup or trade, but straight pick-up. I feel sorry for the FO that has to fly with this guy for the week!

This is the first few days, believe it or not some pepole have lives that keep them from looking at the B&G or this site or even reading the IPNN, and it is entirely possible that this person did not recieve the message prior to the pickup. To throw up our hands and announce that it is a failure is premature as is attacking a fellow crewmember. Drivng any wedge for any reason is exactly what UPS management wants right now.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-10-2010, 09:56 AM
This is the first few days, believe it or not some pepole have lives that keep them from looking at the B&G or this site or even reading the IPNN, and it is entirely possible that this person did not recieve the message prior to the pickup. To throw up our hands and announce that it is a failure is premature as is attacking a fellow crewmember. Drivng any wedge for any reason is exactly what UPS management wants right now.

Not attacking at all! I said all the facts are not in, but I find it hard to believe, unless you live under a rock that this person did not know what was going on. To even be able to pick up time, you have to log on the flight-ops website. When you do that, you would see the RIF bid AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. Do I think we will get 100% compliance with the no pick-up or JA? No..The facts WILL come out and this person, if guilty, needs a a talkin to by the Union....at least!

Buck92
02-10-2010, 09:59 AM
Just curious.....who called?

One of the ACPs: TM. And to be clear -- he was completely professional. He didn't write the script he was given and I don't shoot the messenger. I would loved to have asked him how 'they' justify 3/4 $B profit, reinstating manager bonuses, and concurrently laying off... but, what's the point? He just does what they tell him.

FliFast
02-10-2010, 10:10 AM
Staffing is not based solely upon block hours, but rather upon putting a person in the plane at a certain time which requires them to not be on the schedule someplace else. If they are gone when they should be at home, then someone else is sitting at home without a job.

My 2 cents
Fish

Fish,

I thought I understood your argument, but I have to be honest and admit that I don't.


Allow me to take your example of trading a 3-day trip for a 5-day trip. If pilot "A" drops his 3 day trip and picks up a 5 day trip, I agree with you that he will fly on two days off. But the company's burden to staff an open flight has not changed.

Put another way, if pilot "A" stays with his three day trip, the company will not furlough any less pilots. The only thing it will change is which bucket (3 day/5day) they will pick a reserve from to fly the open trip.

I'll leave it at that. Feel free to further explain here or offline your position. I welcome it.

See ya around,
DD

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 10:13 AM
Everyone in the IPA should COPY the open time lists and see who flies it.
Trip trading for more credit is PICKING UP OPEN TIME!!!
Pro Standards accepts phone calls.

What about if you trip trade because you need certain days off and it just so happens that it's more credit?

Buck92
02-10-2010, 10:17 AM
What about if you trip trade because you need certain days off and it just so happens that it's more credit?

I would think there needs to be some reasonable standard (5 hrs credit, maybe). There's obviously a difference between trading a 3-day trip for a 9-day trip and trading similar trips that have a few hours difference, even if you need the 3 days off. Maybe you're not feeling 100% on the three days and have sick lv to use (after they return what you donated because they furloughed anyway)! :D

FliFast
02-10-2010, 10:28 AM
Because he is doing exactly what management wants, attacking another pilot.


This is his original post:

88's had pay checks and were not left in ANC during a time with no jobs to be had,,,the 300 will go through worse and deserve better then to be grouped into the 88's.

--Factual and opinated comment. Not sure I see the OP attacking anyone.


I bet you will find that those 800 pilots who did not contribute to the MOU were mostly 88's.

--This is an opinionated statement without facts. However, I don't see where this is an attack either.

The 300 deserve better

-Do you think the bottom 300 do not deserve better ? Please tell us why. Also include when you were displaced to ANC and which group of the bottom 300 you are in...first 170 or the second 130.

Maybe cutting the guy a little slack, unless you're walking a mile in his shoes.

FF

FliFast
02-10-2010, 10:37 AM
I would think there needs to be some reasonable standard (5 hrs credit, maybe). There's obviously a difference between trading a 3-day trip for a 9-day trip and trading similar trips that have a few hours difference, even if you need the 3 days off. Maybe you're not feeling 100% on the three days and have sick lv to use (after they return what you donated because they furloughed anyway)! :D

Totally agree, we're all getting our sick time back.

I also agree about "reasonable standards". However, can someone explain to me how picking up a 5 day trip and dropping a 3 day trip makes it easier for the company to furlough. I've always been under the impression that each trip has to have a pilot flying the plane and trips in opentime will NOW be covered exclusively by reserves on days of assignment. If you trade a trip the net result is no less or no more trips in open time.

I can see the argument of using a reserve for 5 days burns up a reserve for 5 days, but it also allows the company a hot reserve in the system.

Anywayz,
back to my igloo,
FF

Dead Tired
02-10-2010, 10:40 AM
Weatherman's rant about UPS not getting any savings from the MOU because of the impending flight/duty rules change gave me an idea. This is what I think UPS is doing: Knowing that the new flight/duty rules will adversely impact them (if weatherman is even close to being right), they will probably need to keep all 300 pilots they are considering furloughing- maybe even have to hire some more. So they are of course trying to use the furlough to try and extract contract consessions before this happens. This is their last ditch effort to do so. The IPA is going to tell them to go pound sand. UPS will actually go ahead and furlough at least the inital group. The new rules come out which will require UPS to keep the 300 potential furloughees around. UPS will come out and say they really needed to furlough but the new rules forced them to cancel. They get to save face because "it's out of our hands". We keep the 300 and the contract intact. We win- they lose.

The other thing is this is a huge test of the new EB. It gives UPS almost a crystal ball of the future in who they are dealing with for negotiations on the new contract. If the company is sucessful, they know they've got this EB by the gonads not to mention we will be starting negotiations from a lower starting point. So, UPS's goal is two fold: get consessions now and test the new EB.

Can't say I don't blame them for trying. Just like 2003 they are using the most junior among us as pawns for contract consessions. They didn't get any then and they aren't going to get any now. UPS reported a record breaking quarter back then, they just reported a very upbeat quarter just now. Seems to be the same strategy. UPS even stated in this latest quarterly report that the recession is over, re-instated pay raises, pension, etc. for the managers. Things will get better and UPS will need everyone of us if not more in the future. We all know they can afford to keep all of us around. I think this talk of the new flight/duty time rules has paralelled talks of a furlough for the last year or so and I think the company used the MOU as a delay tactic to see what would happen. When it took longer than planned or received word that it would screw them over, they took the action we saw this week- one last ditch effort to extract consessions from us by using our most junior crwmembers and a furlough to try and get what they want.

Others have pointed out that beings UPS is a very profitable company that isn't even close to bankruptcy, they can't take the traditional route of slam dunking the union into consessions. The legacy carriers which comprise the majority of pilots in this country are way below us in wages and bennies so UPS is looking for some way of getting us on par with them. This furlough crap seems to be the only way they've been able to come up with to try and accomplish this goal. SCREW THEM! I've spent most of my carreer at UPS (20 1/2 yrs.) fighting for a top of the industry contract. Meanwhile most other employee groups at UPS have been getting top wages for their job classification THE WHOLE TIME. I'm not about to let these thugs take away what has taken 20 years to obtain without a fight. They will go ahead and actually furlough to show they are serious. I hope the IPA can maintain course and call their bluff and not cave into consessions. Actually I have the utmost confidence that the EB can. What will down this whole thinking of mine is if the new flight/duty time rules don't go our way then all bets are off. But if weatherman is even close to being right, then it will go our way. JMHO.

CactusCrew
02-10-2010, 10:47 AM
What a cluster this will be ...

Is it OK to pick up an extra :15 credit ?

Is it OK to pick up an extra 4:00 credit ?

Is it OK to pick up an extra 2 days, just to get that Sunday off for brunch ?

IMHO ... no it is not OK.

I understand what FF and FP are trying to say, but I disagree slightly about the whole principal and effect an open time ban. You assume that it is solely to "punish" the company in some way. To show them how much they need our help to keep things moving. And yes, it can say that.

But a truly EFFECTIVE ban would be one that everyone (the typical 10% excluded) did absolutely no trading to their schedule at all. Is it a sacrafice ? Heck yeah ... it is a sacrafice in support of the ultimate sacrafice that the furloughs will make. And it sends a MUCH stronger message to the company if no one touches open time for ANY reason. PERIOD. It should be a clear and consice message of UNITY. Allowing "deviations" just sends a mixed message to the company and the union members.

Is my approach/attitude an extreme position ? I think so ...

Is this companies approach/attitude to its employees an extreme position ? I think so too ...



Fire away, not many will agree ...

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 11:03 AM
I do think a limit should be there. Ideally, the only reason to trip trade would be to trade exact amounts for exact amounts but how often does that happen? I tried to trade and was denied due to 28 friggin minutes! If they are so overstaffed, you would think that would not be a problem.
CC....I see your point as well.

On a side note.....I just flew with a manager and I was talking about this OT/JA ban and he's like "well, we're just going to fly it". Not that I didn't know that, but man did it rub me the wrong way. IMO, the managers are a huge THREAT to us. We need to do something about this issue. If you think about it, they have close to 200 so now, let's say they get rid of 170 of us and things pick up....no big deal....the managers just fly till our boys get trained. HUGE PROBLEM!

CactusCrew
02-10-2010, 11:10 AM
On a side note.....I just flew with a manager and I was talking about this OT/JA ban and he's like "well, we're just going to fly it". Not that I didn't know that, but man did it rub me the wrong way. IMO, the managers are a huge THREAT to us. We need to do something about this issue. If you think about it, they have close to 200 so now, let's say they get rid of 170 of us and things pick up....no big deal....the managers just fly till our boys get trained. HUGE PROBLEM!

About your side note, that problem does have a solution. And it is part of the reason we shouldn't touch ANY open time.

How will the company justify Management "EMERGENCY" Flying if the union can show that the trip was uncovered for days and even weeks ? What arbitrator and/or court would allow our open time to be considered an operational emergency.

Something to think about isn't it ?

aseweepay
02-10-2010, 11:11 AM
What a cluster this will be ...

Is it OK to pick up an extra :15 credit ?

Is it OK to pick up an extra 4:00 credit ?

Is it OK to pick up an extra 2 days, just to get that Sunday off for brunch ?

IMHO ... no it is not OK.

I understand what FF and FP are trying to say, but I disagree slightly about the whole principal and effect an open time ban. You assume that it is solely to "punish" the company in some way. To show them how much they need our help to keep things moving. And yes, it can say that.

But a truly EFFECTIVE ban would be one that everyone (the typical 10% excluded) did absolutely no trading to their schedule at all. Is it a sacrafice ? Heck yeah ... it is a sacrafice in support of the ultimate sacrafice that the furloughs will make. And it sends a MUCH stronger message to the company if no one touches open time for ANY reason. PERIOD. It should be a clear and consice message of UNITY. Allowing "deviations" just sends a mixed message to the company and the union members.

Is my approach/attitude an extreme position ? I think so ...

Is this companies approach/attitude to its employees an extreme position ? I think so too ...



Fire away, not many will agree ...


I agree with you....I am in the bottom 170 and have been talking with friends of mine from new-hire class and so far none of us plan on picking up open time...I don't want to be the guy that picks some up, and the company says, "oh, well we can cover most trips now so only furlough the bottom 54....etc" no way do I want that blood on my hands. Would pick-up help since I am also on the chopping block and have been on RDG etc like most of us at the bottom of the seniority list (not to discount those that also gave that are above 170..or 300 you know what I mean) ? Heck yeah, it would, but Iwill find another way to get by rather than possibly hurt my fellow union members....

I hope the thoughts on rest changes come true, but I had a talk last night with someone who is very involved and in the know as they say. I floated this exact scenario by him and he said that when they looked at how the new rest rules (as proposed) would effect us, it only will effect about 6 % of our schedule....it's still something, and he could always be wrong, and nothing official has been decided on the rules to his analysis is subject to change.... I hope he is wrong......

FliFast
02-10-2010, 11:13 AM
Hey CC,

I know you've been in this crazy business as long as I have if not longer, so I totally respect your opinion. And we've been furloughed at least once at the same airline.

IMHO, trip trading was a contractual provision secured by giving something else up. So, giving it up without getting anything in return is hard for me to agree to. When push comes to shove, I agree we should voluntarily not trade for large gains in credit. What constitutes "large" gains is something that will need to be addressed if applicable.

I differ in opinion because I think the only thing that will get the company's attention (that I'm willing to mention here) will be cancellations and service failures due to lack of coverage.

I don't feel that trading a Sunday thru Tuesday trip for a Tuesday thru Thursday will have an effect on that goal.

I think doing things for the sake of solidarity that have a net zero effect on the evil empire does not further our goals. Case in point, the APA that represents the pilots of American airlines staged a rally where they didn't wear their hats to work for one day. Participation by the rank and file was unprecedented, the result for the union..a lot of sunburned heads.

See ya up north,
C

Precontact
02-10-2010, 11:21 AM
I totally agree with Dead Tired's analysis above. Last chance for UPS to grab concessions before new FARs, economy rebound, etc. We need to stand firm and hold our ground. I believe most of us are in agreement here. This is not a concessionary union. I am proud of being an IPA member.

aseweepay
02-10-2010, 11:23 AM
I think that we have gone from 200 to about 135 flight qualified managers at this point...still waaaaaay too many, and they are a problem, I agree.

One problem we have with the open time ban is that people can disguise their pick up so that it is harder to find out about (I don't want to explain it here and risk teaching someone how to do it if they don't already know how to, and having never picked up any open time during my illustrious 3 year career here I would probably get the explanation wrong...it was explained to me how to do it by someone telling me what we should do to truly put a stop to any pick ups). This person's suggestion is a cap on hours if furlough is enacted....say 75 hours a month +/- 4 hours so people can still trade, but not feed at the trough....I think it's a good idea, keeps the company from stuffing lines to 89 hours, which they will be allowed to do.. It's probably too late to get any language that would enforce such a cap...wish it was thought of years ago.....

Was flying all night and am dead tired so quess I missed CC's point....I agree with what FF said, I have no problem with people trading with open time for sched changes, but picking up time is B.S.....in fact, the code for pick up should be changed from "PO" to "POS" cause if you are picking up open time with what we are dealing with now, then......you are a "POS"......

FliFast
02-10-2010, 11:30 AM
Dead tired,

Excellent Post.

Just to agree with some of your points. This is an excercise with many goals in mind for the company.

-Test the new EB-see what their made of and how they will represent their group under adversity.

-Gain hostages for the remainder (33 months) of our current contract.

-Test the use and efficiency of Mgmnt pilots to offset our JA/OT ban.

-Bring our wages and bennies in line with our passenger airline contemporaries by strong arming us into opening the contract.

This is a managment excercise. The anger and effects will be ongoing for years.

FF

FliFast
02-10-2010, 11:34 AM
Was flying all night and am dead tired so quess I missed CC's point....I agree with what FF said, I have no problem with people trading with open time for sched changes, but picking up time is B.S.....in fact, the code for pick up should be changed from "PO" to "POS" cause if you are picking up open time with what we are dealing with now, then......you are a "POS"......

At another airline we posted names of the "10%" that were picking up open time trips. POS, good one.

Dead Tired
02-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Dead tired,

Excellent Post.

Just to agree with some of your points. This is an excercise with many goals in mind for the company.

-Test the new EB-see what their made of and how they will represent their group under adversity.

-Gain hostages for the remainder (33 months) of our current contract.

-Test the use and efficiency of Mgmnt pilots to offset our JA/OT ban.

-Bring our wages and bennies in line with our passenger airline contemporaries by strong arming us into opening the contract.

This is a managment excercise. The anger and effects will be ongoing for years.

FF

FF,

You bring up some other good points as to what the company may be up to. Rest assured, this is a test for both sides of the aisle.

DT

CactusCrew
02-10-2010, 12:07 PM
Hey CC,

I know you've been in this crazy business as long as I have if not longer, so I totally respect your opinion. And we've been furloughed at least once at the same airline.

IMHO, trip trading was a contractual provision secured by giving something else up. So, giving it up without getting anything in return is hard for me to agree to. When push comes to shove, I agree we should voluntarily not trade for large gains in credit. What constitutes "large" gains is something that will need to be addressed if applicable.

I differ in opinion because I think the only thing that will get the company's attention (that I'm willing to mention here) will be cancellations and service failures due to lack of coverage.

I don't feel that trading a Sunday thru Tuesday trip for a Tuesday thru Thursday will have an effect on that goal.

I think doing things for the sake of solidarity that have a net zero effect on the evil empire does not further our goals. Case in point, the APA that represents the pilots of American airlines staged a rally where they didn't wear their hats to work for one day. Participation by the rank and file was unprecedented, the result for the union..a lot of sunburned heads.

See ya up north,
C

Hey FF,

Like I said, I see your point. Trades are surely contractual, no argument from me. I just think differently. The furlough is contractual too ... unfortunately it requires a severe amount of sacrafice on the part of the few. You and me !

:(

In reference to your Sun-Tues vs Tues-Thurs, I do have a question. If that trade didn't benefit them in some way, do you think it would be approved ?

It wasn't for me on numerous occasions here.

There's more to it, but it would better be discussed on a bar stool near a blender and tap !

Later CC,

bottom 180

Airbum
02-10-2010, 01:11 PM
Why not just fly your line? Personally I fail to see how trip trades that increase line credit by 6 hours is any different then picking up a turn.

restore sick bank? isn't that done by just working your normal line?

Once we say its OK to pick up OT the list of reasons will be long and varied on why this or that person is a special case.

Lets see, fly your awarded line to 75 hours, travel as scheduled, leave open time alone for any reason, enjoy your vacation .... problem half solved.

Pilot7576
02-10-2010, 01:38 PM
The only trip trading I intend to do is a trade with my sickbank...that trade is ALWAYS approved!!

JMO

Pilot7576

UPS1856
02-10-2010, 02:57 PM
Why not just fly your line? Personally I fail to see how trip trades that increase line credit by 6 hours is any different then picking up a turn.

restore sick bank? isn't that done by just working your normal line?

Once we say its OK to pick up OT the list of reasons will be long and varied on why this or that person is a special case.

Lets see, fly your awarded line to 75 hours, travel as scheduled, leave open time alone for any reason, enjoy your vacation .... problem half solved.
EXECUTIVE BOARD Publishes Solidarity Policy on Open Time and Junior Available (JA)
The Executive Board has determined that, until further notice, the following policy is in effect:
* Any IPA crewmember who has received a furlough notice is exempt from this policy
1) Do not pick up Open Time except as outlined below;
http://inside.ipapilot.org/newsnetwork/ipnn/images/ipalogo_097.jpg2) Do not increase original credit line values by more than five (5:00) credit hours using line improvement, trip trades, and pick up of open time to restore SIK or MIL.
3) Do not participate in vacation buy-backs.
4) Do not voluntarily train on days off.
5) Do not bid for vacation on days off.
6) Do not bid for trips that carry-in to days off, including preferencing reserve assignments that carry into days off.
7) Do not accept Junior Available assignments.
* - Captains on scheduled reserve days should accept JA2 assignments to the right seat.

L'il J.Seinfeld
02-10-2010, 03:19 PM
Man I liked APC better when we were discussing hiring, who had the interview gougue, how long to upgrade etc. This furlough thing sucks. God help us all.

jsled
02-10-2010, 03:26 PM
Tell me about it. Between the UPS furlough and the FEDEX 4a2b...the cargo forum is getting depressing. Good luck to all.

de727ups
02-10-2010, 03:31 PM
"4) Do not voluntarily train on days off.
5) Do not bid for vacation on days off."

I see a problem with this. I see 4 and 5 above as being in excess of the intent and spirit of contractual language with respect to an open time and JA ban. I think the EB has gone overboard with this and you'll find quite a few guys will have a problem with being told how to bid around their vacation and when to go to training. I understand the concept here, and I took two months off last summer and had hoped to the next two as well, but I think the EB has taken this a step too far by going beyond the contract with some things.

If someone does their training on days off, are we now going to hold them in the same regard as someone who picks up open time?

I'll back the union and support the furlougees. But I could see this decision to "add to" the contractual language as something that could cause a lot of dissension in the ranks and THAT will be a bonus for management.

turkeydrvr
02-10-2010, 03:45 PM
I'll follow the EB's advice without an issue with it. I'll let the EB do the talking for me and hope that my fellow pilots at UPS will do the same.

Pilot7576
02-10-2010, 03:52 PM
de727...

If you're senior enough to conflict bid your vacation and your training, then do it...what problem do have following the EB recommendations?

JMO

Pilot7576

Naven
02-10-2010, 03:53 PM
"4) Do not voluntarily train on days off.
5) Do not bid for vacation on days off."

I see a problem with this. I see 4 and 5 above as being in excess of the intent and spirit of contractual language with respect to an open time and JA ban. I think the EB has gone overboard with this and you'll find quite a few guys will have a problem with being told how to bid around their vacation and when to go to training. I understand the concept here, and I took two months off last summer and had hoped to the next two as well, but I think the EB has taken this a step too far by going beyond the contract with some things.

If someone does their training on days off, are we now going to hold them in the same regard as someone who picks up open time?

I'll back the union and support the furlougees. But I could see this decision to "add to" the contractual language as something that could cause a lot of dissension in the ranks and THAT will be a bonus for management.
Also depending how senior you are you might not have a choice.

de727ups
02-10-2010, 04:10 PM
"what problem do have following the EB recommendations?"

Note that I said this in my post:

"I'll back the union and support the furlougees."

I guess I'm worried that the EB "adding" to the contractual intent of the JA/open time ban, without any sort of vote from the membership, could cause problems for unity. I think a lot of people are going to have a problem with being told how to schedule their vacation and training.

Again, I wonder if people who choose to train on days off will be seen in the same light as the 10%er's (I hope it's way less that that) who will pick up open time and accept JA's.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-10-2010, 04:23 PM
I have tried to train during work days the last two years and have not been able to. Unless you have some seniority, it's gonna be hard to go after those of us who get what we get when it comes to training and vacation!

heavyjetpilot
02-10-2010, 04:24 PM
Again, I wonder if people who choose to train on days off will be seen in the same light as the 10%er's (I hope it's way less that that) who will pick up open time and accept JA's.


Yes they will.

turkeydrvr
02-10-2010, 04:28 PM
"I have tried to train during work days the last two years and have not been able to. Unless you have some seniority, it's gonna be hard to go after those of us who get what we get when it comes to training and vacation!"

The language the EB provided accounts for the inability to conflict.

turkeydrvr
02-10-2010, 04:34 PM
Again, I wonder if people who choose to train on days off will be seen in the same light as the 10%er's (I hope it's way less that that) who will pick up open time and accept JA's.

De, it is part of the solidarity guidelines the EB has proposed regarding the Opentime/JA ban. My opinion would be the same as if you had picked up opentime. Your a captain, I'm sure you can understand how conflict helps the bottom 300.

There is a direct link to vacation and training with opentime. When you conflict either one where does that time go?....opentime.

Lester Burnham
02-10-2010, 04:35 PM
The key to this is not necessarily what we can enforce, but the EB has offered guidance to the pilot group about what is expected from each of us. Obviously, not everyone can train or take vacation on their work days due to seniority. However, we should all strive to meet these guidelines. Most of the EB's reccomendations are fully achievable by 100% of our members. The training and vacation items are something where we each just need to try to do the right thing.

Pretty simple: If you can conflict a trip with your training or vacation, you should do so! By doing this you give yourself more time off. By NOT doing this, you are helping the company operate the airline with fewer bodies and adding to your paycheck at the expense of someone hitting the street.

J Dawg
02-10-2010, 04:36 PM
"I think the EB has taken this a step too far by going beyond the contract with some things.


I'll back the union and support the furlougees. But I could see this decision to "add to" the contractual language as something that could cause a lot of dissension in the ranks and THAT will be a bonus for management.


How is the EB going "beyond", or "adding to" the contract? Seniority permitting, not training on days off and not bidding vacation on days off is within the bounds of the contract.

This is simple guidance from the EB, and it is within the bounds of the contract.

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 04:39 PM
This is the first few days, believe it or not some pepole have lives that keep them from looking at the B&G or this site or even reading the IPNN, and it is entirely possible that this person did not recieve the message prior to the pickup. To throw up our hands and announce that it is a failure is premature as is attacking a fellow crewmember. Drivng any wedge for any reason is exactly what UPS management wants right now.

Regardless.....he/she shouldn't be picking up OT when we have a furlough THREAT. It's sad that we even need the union to issue an OT/JA ban. This is a no brainer unless we are not even mentioning furlough.

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 04:46 PM
Why not just fly your line? Personally I fail to see how trip trades that increase line credit by 6 hours is any different then picking up a turn.

restore sick bank? isn't that done by just working your normal line?

Once we say its OK to pick up OT the list of reasons will be long and varied on why this or that person is a special case.

Lets see, fly your awarded line to 75 hours, travel as scheduled, leave open time alone for any reason, enjoy your vacation .... problem half solved.

Easy to say if you don't have a little at home with a SO that flies too. I think PICKING UP OT right now is absolutely unacceptable but trading a trip for very near same credit (I would do it for less but they won't let us) to make your own life a little easier? Our QOL is about to take a huge nose dive so how does simply trading help the company?

Archie Bunker
02-10-2010, 05:45 PM
Easy to say if you don't have a little at home with a SO that flies too. I think PICKING UP OT right now is absolutely unacceptable but trading a trip for very near same credit (I would do it for less but they won't let us) to make your own life a little easier? Our QOL is about to take a huge nose dive so how does simply trading help the company?

M,

Did you read the guidelines from the IPA executive board concerning trip trades, etc? Here, read again:

The Executive Board has determined that, until further notice, the following policy is in effect:
* Any IPA crewmember who has received a furlough notice is exempt from this policy
1) Do not pick up Open Time except as outlined below;
2) Do not increase original credit line values by more than five (5:00) credit hours using line improvement, trip trades, and pick up of open time to restore SIK or MIL.
3) Do not participate in vacation buy-backs.
4) Do not voluntarily train on days off.
5) Do not bid for vacation on days off.
6) Do not bid for trips that carry-in to days off, including preferencing reserve assignments that carry into days off.
7) Do not accept Junior Available assignments.
* - Captains on scheduled reserve days should accept JA2 assignments to the right seat.

You've got 5 hours to play with on trip trades.

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 06:01 PM
Arch: Yes, I saw that hence...I said "trading a trip for near the same credit" on my last post. Personally I think even 5 hours is a little high but it's hard to get it very close.

CALTanker
02-10-2010, 06:14 PM
Arch: Yes, I saw that hence...I said "trading a trip for near the same credit" on my last post. Personally I think even 5 hours is a little high but it's hard to get it very close.

Freightpuppy. I'm an outsider that is watching closely as this (I believe), has an effect on the entire Collective bargaining environment. How close does this furlough put your seniority group to the bottom? Assuming you are an late '05 hire. Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks in advance.

Freightpuppy
02-10-2010, 06:17 PM
I think it's Oct. 2006 hires and later.

Airbum
02-10-2010, 08:16 PM
Easy to say if you don't have a little at home with a SO that flies too. I think PICKING UP OT right now is absolutely unacceptable but trading a trip for very near same credit (I would do it for less but they won't let us) to make your own life a little easier? Our QOL is about to take a huge nose dive so how does simply trading help the company?

I'm sorry, SO?

A person who picks up 5 hours of open time is working the exact same amount as the person who trip trades for 5 extra hours. The effect on the bottom 300 would be the same. Look, i like trip trades and open time ... just not now.

I understand the trip trading down is not approved. I too wish it was. For some I am sure the picking up OT improves QOL issues for their families but this is now no longer acceptable.

Regardless of my opinion the EB of the IPA has approved slightly increasing one's line credit with trip trades and open pick up for restoring sick banks. I will defer to their guidance and fully support their position.

Buck92
02-10-2010, 08:20 PM
I'm sorry, SO? ....

I think that's significant other. You know: boyfriend, husband, girlfriend, wife, transgender life partner. Pick what applies.

FliFast
02-10-2010, 09:04 PM
Now that we have some guidance on the open time/JA/trip trade front...hopefully the next item will be the use of sub-contractors during PEAK when we have guys on furlough.

FF

Luckydawg
02-10-2010, 09:19 PM
Freightpuppy,

You've got your guidance. Trade for your quality of life. From one that get's a letter (probably) tomorrow, I wouldn't hold it against you.

I will hold it against those not adhering to guidance. What would I do? Not much other than what is required of my duties. It'll be a long and quiet crossing.

In addition to the list though, I still have a beef with the guys hitting 65 who think that it is their right to bid the DC8 FE position since there are those junior to them on the list.

Soon to be 65 Captains on the 400 I know are pursuing this (DS Jr and BD, numbers 3 and 5, probably others). Roberto, these are your peers, what do you say? Do you endorse this? I hope they aren't still pursuing it with this new announcement. Maybe this is why the company wants RIF language, to quickly put the DC8 ghost fleet down.

MD11HOG
02-10-2010, 10:40 PM
How many over 60 do you guys have ?

FR8TFLYER
02-10-2010, 11:53 PM
Don't know for sure, but since it is more than 1, it is too many!

highsky
02-10-2010, 11:57 PM
Wow, didn't take long: Just two days into the furlough, and already some D-bag captain picked up an OT trip. An acquaintance of his called him out via E-mail, and he just replied, "Oh, thanks for the reminder of the OT/JA ban right now, but I'm in a financial hardship now. This will pass soon, then I'll support everyone."

I just flew with a captain who is shelling out $60K per year out-of-pocket for medical expenses for his wife. He told me he REFUSES to pick up OT/JA. If this man has the stones to respect the ban, so can the rest of us. NO EXCUSES!!!

Some of us are about to take a 100% pay cut. Many will go Ch. 11, and many will be divorced by their spouse.

Sideshow Bob
02-11-2010, 12:59 AM
"4) Do not voluntarily train on days off.
5) Do not bid for vacation on days off."

I see a problem with this. I see 4 and 5 above as being in excess of the intent and spirit of contractual language with respect to an open time and JA ban. I think the EB has gone overboard with this and you'll find quite a few guys will have a problem with being told how to bid around their vacation and when to go to training. I understand the concept here, and I took two months off last summer and had hoped to the next two as well, but I think the EB has taken this a step too far by going beyond the contract with some things.

If someone does their training on days off, are we now going to hold them in the same regard as someone who picks up open time?

I'll back the union and support the furlougees. But I could see this decision to "add to" the contractual language as something that could cause a lot of dissension in the ranks and THAT will be a bonus for management.

Oh God...and so it begins. Excusorama.

Sideshow Bob
02-11-2010, 01:23 AM
View Overstream: 'Hitler' (http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=m1mtirnuede6)

... awesome!

Roberto
02-11-2010, 02:14 AM
...Soon to be 65 Captains on the 400 I know are pursuing going to FE (DS Jr and BD, numbers 3 and 5, probably others). Roberto, these are your peers, what do you say?
It sounds like a losing proposition to me, but I don't see how it would have any impact on UPS's decision making re. furlough numbers.

Roberto
02-11-2010, 02:23 AM
How many over 60 do you guys have ?
About 218 plus a net of 9 more during the year (32 turning 60 minus 23 turning 65). How many does FedEx have?

Archie Bunker
02-11-2010, 02:37 AM
View Overstream: 'Hitler' (http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=m1mtirnuede6)

OMFG...I haven't laughed that hard in a long time! Brown pilots....you must watch this.

2cylinderdriver
02-11-2010, 04:08 AM
About 218 plus a net of 9 more during the year (32 turning 60 minus 23 turning 65). How many does FedEx have?

At least double that number.

brownie
02-11-2010, 04:32 AM
How many over 60 do you guys have ?

WWWWWWWWWWWWay too manyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

MoosePileit
02-11-2010, 04:54 AM
It would have been great if UPS would have given a suitable buy-out or retirement incentive. They could already have paid it off on paper. That was a business decision. You guys care to keep your eyes on the current ball rather than groan about the past?

Freightpuppy
02-11-2010, 05:07 AM
I'm sorry, SO?

A person who picks up 5 hours of open time is working the exact same amount as the person who trip trades for 5 extra hours. The effect on the bottom 300 would be the same. Look, i like trip trades and open time ... just not now.

I understand the trip trading down is not approved. I too wish it was. For some I am sure the picking up OT improves QOL issues for their families but this is now no longer acceptable.

Regardless of my opinion the EB of the IPA has approved slightly increasing one's line credit with trip trades and open pick up for restoring sick banks. I will defer to their guidance and fully support their position.

significant other

I completely respect your opinion on this and admire that you would not even trade to improve your own QOL at this time. Question.....how about if one trades to work LESS days for one more hour of credit? Now there are more days in OT for the company to cover.

Freightpuppy
02-11-2010, 05:08 AM
It would have been great if UPS would have given a suitable buy-out or retirement incentive.

Unfortunately they'd probably have to offer the exact same thing that the guys are getting while working PLUS first class tickets to Asia once a week to get some of these dudes to leave. LOL

L'il J.Seinfeld
02-11-2010, 05:14 AM
Unbelievable that an '88er (who has been a capt since I was a frosh in hs and Ive been at Brown 5 years) picked up an entire week's worth of OT totalling more than 40 hours. His reason was that he needs the money and doesn't care what people think. I hope the IPA puts some teeth into the so called ban. (It's not really a ban if senior capts just ignore it!)

MoosePileit
02-11-2010, 05:25 AM
It's not really a ban if anyone, not just xxxx ignores it. It is too bad that he knew what he was doing and tried to rationalize it. His argument was flippant and weak. How he is managed won't be a cure all, but it is an early start.

JustUnderPar
02-11-2010, 08:22 AM
In this stressful time everyone remember to be SAFE out there.

1800 RVR
02-11-2010, 09:18 AM
In addition to the list though, I still have a beef with the guys hitting 65 who think that it is their right to bid the DC8 FE position since there are those junior to them on the list.

Soon to be 65 Captains on the 400 I know are pursuing this (DS Jr and BD, numbers 3 and 5, probably others). Roberto, these are your peers, what do you say? Do you endorse this? I hope they aren't still pursuing it with this new announcement. Maybe this is why the company wants RIF language, to quickly put the DC8 ghost fleet down.

I can see how they can do this with the displacement bid open, however, how can they do this with the RIF bid? I thought all of the DC8 positions are gone with that bid? Either way, downbidding at 65 to stay on the line is disgusting...

Winged Wheeler
02-11-2010, 10:23 AM
With the RIF languague UPS is about to send some relatively senior DC-8 folks to ANC, unless I misunderstand it completely. The suck factor will be spread all across our seniority list (although it's worst for the ones furloughed.)

LJS,

I have been scratching my head on this. I thought I understood the ART14 rules on this bid. I am not getting how senior DC8 guys get sent to ANC if they don't want to go. I am sure I'm missing something obvious.

Thanks

WW

UPSFO4LIFE
02-11-2010, 10:34 AM
LJS,

I have been scratching my head on this. I thought I understood the ART14 rules on this bid. I am not getting how DC8 guys get sent to ANC if they don't want to go. I am sure I'm missing something obvious.

Thanks

WW

I don't know if that will happen, but this is going to be a displacement like we have never seen here before. In talking to someone in the union a few month back, I was told the displacement will be difficult to predict with some fairly senior guys ending up in ANC. Don't know what that means, but this gives the company more lattitude to put some people in places that reduce training costs. It is going to be very interesting to see what happens over the next few months!:(

Precontact
02-11-2010, 10:40 AM
Would be good if the IPA could run a mock bid before it closes to see the effects.

Roberto
02-11-2010, 10:53 AM
...In talking to someone in the union a few month back, I was told the (RIF) displacement will be difficult to predict with some fairly senior guys ending up in ANC.
The DC8 captains are all senior enough to bump the SDF junior captains. The bumped A300 junior captains will have a choice- A300 FO or ANC captain. Bumped SDF 757 captains that are senior enough to bump SDFZ, MIA or ONT will go there if they want captain, if not, then ANC or stay FO in SDF 757. (PS- this is for the RIF bid. The preceding Displacement Bid that closes on the 19th uses normal rules.)

Swedish Blender
02-11-2010, 11:01 AM
LJS,

I have been scratching my head on this. I thought I understood the ART14 rules on this bid. I am not getting how senior DC8 guys get sent to ANC if they don't want to go. I am sure I'm missing something obvious.

Thanks

WW

I'll give it a shot but I don't understand it totally. You can either choose A (seat) or B (domicile).

Assuming the DC8 captains bid A to stay captains here is what will happen.

A.System-wide to displace a more junior Captain

(1)Displaces most junior Captain system-wide on current equipment
There are no more DC8s so this will not apply

(2)Displaces most junior Captain system-wide most recently qualified equipment
Operating under the assumption most of the senior DC8 captains have always been on the 8 and no other fleet, this will not apply

(3)Displaces most junior Captain system-wide
This one would apply which means the junior captain seat is ANC

YMMV

Swedish Blender
02-11-2010, 11:06 AM
The DC8 captains are all senior enough to bump the SDF junior captains.

Roberto,

I think they can only do this if the Ocho captains were previously qual'd on different equipment.

Lester Burnham
02-11-2010, 11:38 AM
DC-8 Captains will stay in SDF. Read p. 324, under Primary Captain Displacement Steps: #2 Says displaces most junior Captain in Domicile. The A or B only applies if they are the most junior Captain in the domicile.

Swedish Blender
02-11-2010, 12:11 PM
Agreed, somehow missed that first part.

Airbum
02-11-2010, 12:49 PM
significant other

I completely respect your opinion on this and admire that you would not even trade to improve your own QOL at this time. Question.....how about if one trades to work LESS days for one more hour of credit? Now there are more days in OT for the company to cover.

Thanks on the SO

Since we are paid on on how productive we are as pilots not by days, one would be increasing their productivity with your example. However we have direction from our Union stating that such a trade is completely acceptable.

My response is just an academic one as we have guidance from the EB on what is acceptable. I spoke to early stating my opinion. I will not add to any division in our group by making up my own personal standard.

Good luck guys.

Archie Bunker
02-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Unbelievable that an '88er (who has been a capt since I was a frosh in hs and Ive been at Brown 5 years) picked up an entire week's worth of OT totalling more than 40 hours. His reason was that he needs the money and doesn't care what people think. I hope the IPA puts some teeth into the so called ban. (It's not really a ban if senior capts just ignore it!)

Who was this scumbag? Was he a -400 Capt?

aseweepay
02-11-2010, 01:39 PM
Who was this scumbag? Was he a -400 Capt?


Airbus Captain....

JRT123
02-11-2010, 01:40 PM
cryptic: subtract 100.

aseweepay beat me to the answer.

jumbodriver
02-11-2010, 02:58 PM
I do think a limit should be there. Ideally, the only reason to trip trade would be to trade exact amounts for exact amounts but how often does that happen? I tried to trade and was denied due to 28 friggin minutes! If they are so overstaffed, you would think that would not be a problem.
CC....I see your point as well.

On a side note.....I just flew with a manager and I was talking about this OT/JA ban and he's like "well, we're just going to fly it". Not that I didn't know that, but man did it rub me the wrong way. IMO, the managers are a huge THREAT to us. We need to do something about this issue. If you think about it, they have close to 200 so now, let's say they get rid of 170 of us and things pick up....no big deal....the managers just fly till our boys get trained. HUGE PROBLEM!

In ANC 74Y, lines are well in the 80-90 range for period 10-02. You can actually trade for less. I just did it! Dropped 5 hrs, if only 50 of us did that, with a little patience, that equates to 250 hrs that someone else has to pick up. Its a small amount but its worth it.

The mangles problem is there, but how many FQM are there on the 74 and MD11? At least, if they furlough the 54 in May, they will all come out of ANC, can they match the flying? Especially with the OT ban? I seriously doubt it...or at least I should hope.

J Dawg
02-11-2010, 05:14 PM
Just a reminder to watch what you post here and on the B&G

"It appears British Airways came across a chatroom on a union's website and deemed the language in some of the comments to amount to "intimidation"

British Airways Suspends 15 Cabin Crew Over Reports Of Intimidation Relating To Comments On Web | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/British-Airways-Suspends-15-Cabin-Crew-Over-Reports-Of-Intimidation-Relating-To-Comments-On-Web/Article/201002215547145?lpos=Business_First_Home_Article_T easer_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15547145_British_Airways_Suspends_15_C abin_Crew_Over_Reports_Of_Intimidation_Relating_To _Comments_On_Web)

Tigerpilot1995
02-11-2010, 07:51 PM
Where is our good ol buddy Sekataki? Oh, probably flying his poor like M butt off.

No favors, no waivers, 100% IPA

Buck92
02-11-2010, 08:16 PM
haha, if they (FQMs) think thier duty days are tough now, wait til May. Stand firm on JA/OT ban... their tempers are gonna start getting short as fatigue levels rise. AND they're gonna be afraid to call 'uncle' fearing for THEIR jobs. crying shame :p

FR8TFLYER
02-11-2010, 08:23 PM
Where is our good ol buddy Sekataki? Oh, probably flying his poor like M butt off.

No favors, no waivers, 100% IPA

I hope he didn't forget his hat!

757upspilot
02-12-2010, 07:17 AM
This is his original post:

88's had pay checks and were not left in ANC during a time with no jobs to be had,,,the 300 will go through worse and deserve better then to be grouped into the 88's.

--Factual and opinated comment. Not sure I see the OP attacking anyone.


I bet you will find that those 800 pilots who did not contribute to the MOU were mostly 88's.

--This is an opinionated statement without facts. However, I don't see where this is an attack either.

The 300 deserve better

-Do you think the bottom 300 do not deserve better ? Please tell us why. Also include when you were displaced to ANC and which group of the bottom 300 you are in...first 170 or the second 130.

Maybe cutting the guy a little slack, unless you're walking a mile in his shoes.

FF
Walked in his shoes several times and I never blamed the pilots senior to me for getting laid off nor did I expect them to take a pay or benefits cut and yes I did get laid off into an economy with no jobs.

roadwarrior
02-12-2010, 07:47 AM
As a future UPS furloughee I will now go out of my way to not use UPS to ship or recieve anything. All will be via USPS or FEDEX if possible. Already had my wifes company switch to purple, great service and actually less expensive.

Uhhh.....right then, that makes sense......you'll be back even sooner then.

JustUnderPar
02-12-2010, 07:59 AM
Uhhh.....right then, that makes sense......you'll be back even sooner then.


He is just PO'd. I am sure he does what everyone else does. Ship it the cheapest way they can. (which is almost never on the air side at UPS) Kinda makes you wonder about our pricing structure????

JustUnderPar
02-12-2010, 08:02 AM
Anyone know how much UPS can stuff lines during furlough? Cant seem to find anything about his one.

Guess this is not "the last job I will ever have" :D

roadwarrior
02-12-2010, 08:06 AM
What a cluster this will be ...

Is it OK to pick up an extra :15 credit ?

Is it OK to pick up an extra 4:00 credit ?

Is it OK to pick up an extra 2 days, just to get that Sunday off for brunch ?

IMHO ... no it is not OK.

I understand what FF and FP are trying to say, but I disagree slightly about the whole principal and effect an open time ban. You assume that it is solely to "punish" the company in some way. To show them how much they need our help to keep things moving. And yes, it can say that.

But a truly EFFECTIVE ban would be one that everyone (the typical 10% excluded) did absolutely no trading to their schedule at all. Is it a sacrafice ? Heck yeah ... it is a sacrafice in support of the ultimate sacrafice that the furloughs will make. And it sends a MUCH stronger message to the company if no one touches open time for ANY reason. PERIOD. It should be a clear and consice message of UNITY. Allowing "deviations" just sends a mixed message to the company and the union members.

Is my approach/attitude an extreme position ? I think so ...

Is this companies approach/attitude to its employees an extreme position ? I think so too ...



Fire away, not many will agree ...

Finally, someone gets it.

roadwarrior
02-12-2010, 08:13 AM
I'll follow the EB's advice without an issue with it. I'll let the EB do the talking for me and hope that my fellow pilots at UPS will do the same.

Another one who get it!

roadwarrior
02-12-2010, 08:16 AM
Regardless.....he/she shouldn't be picking up OT when we have a furlough THREAT. It's sad that we even need the union to issue an OT/JA ban. This is a no brainer unless we are not even mentioning furlough.

OK....I'm stunned....that's now three people who get it! I'm starting to get hopeful......sort of.

aseweepay
02-12-2010, 08:23 AM
Anyone know how much UPS can stuff lines during furlough? Cant seem to find anything about his one.

Guess this is not "the last job I will ever have" :D

Up to 89 hours

Pilot7576
02-12-2010, 08:44 AM
In the event of a stuffed line, a trip trade with your sick bank is always approved...think of it as an early sick check....

Pilot7576

JustUnderPar
02-12-2010, 08:45 AM
Up to 89 hours


Thanks......

aseweepay
02-12-2010, 09:18 AM
Thanks......

Your welcome....I wish the union had gotten caps on flying in case of furlough
in the last contract. An OT Ban/Refusal of JA is effective, but to ensure no open time pick up it would be nice to cap lines at 75 +/- 5 hours for trading....Hopefully nobody (including me) hits the street.....

767pilot
02-12-2010, 10:00 AM
I plan on retiring well before my 60th birthday, but should I have to stay beyond it, it will be due to the fact that the Age 65 rule paused my career progressio.
.

Talk about selfish.
Its OK for you to take advantages of age 65 to make up for any career set backs, but not for our age 60 guys?

JRT123
02-12-2010, 10:03 AM
Yeah, well, when I'm 64 1/2 they're gonna raise the retirement age to 70. I'm gonna work till I'm dead. Isn't everyone!?! :D

767pilot
02-12-2010, 10:05 AM
fishfreighter,

I will be retired at or before 60. Bank on it.

If I had a dollar for everyone that came through here and said that, I'd be retired!

JustUnderPar
02-12-2010, 10:12 AM
Yeah, well, when I'm 64 1/2 they're gonna raise the retirement age to 70. I'm gonna work till I'm dead. Isn't everyone!?! :D

I dont think most will have a choice. Everyones career progression took a 5 year pause. Now that 300 folks at UPS are gonna hit the street that will put them that much further behind. Everyone is feeling this stuff. Go ask some Southwest guys how many are leaving at 60.......None. They probably have the best corporate climate I can think of and its really affecting them.:mad:

They are about 200-300 overstaffed as well. I hate to see this stuff. But remember its no ones fault. Its the Law. Well I guess you can blame congress......:eek:

767pilot
02-12-2010, 10:14 AM
I have towed banners
Single engine freight cessnas
corporate on turbo props out of TEB for almost nothing
piece of crap lear charter for almost nothing
nice gulfstream charter for awesome money
Atlas Air for almost nothing
UAL for many years only to have a good 10 months of pay
Countless other charter and corporate jobs


Go find yourself a nice banner towing job then and good riddance

767pilot
02-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Would be good if the IPA could run a mock bid before it closes to see the effects.

The last administration said we would not be doing that because there seems to be a difference betwwn the way that we read the methodology and the way that the company does. We didn't want to tip our hand to anything and provide them with evidence against us in an arbitration.

This administration may do differently, but really, what difference does it make if the rules don't give you a choice anyway?

767pilot
02-12-2010, 10:39 AM
The DC8 captains are all senior enough to bump the SDF junior captains. The bumped A300 junior captains will have a choice- A300 FO or ANC captain. Bumped SDF 757 captains that are senior enough to bump SDFZ, MIA or ONT will go there if they want captain, if not, then ANC or stay FO in SDF 757. (PS- this is for the RIF bid. The preceding Displacement Bid that closes on the 19th uses normal rules.)


Z is a different domicile than Sdf 75. A 75 captain wanting to remain as a captain would not automaticly fall into z unless the company wanted. They may want him in an MD or a bus rather than create another bump

Roberto
02-12-2010, 11:46 AM
Z is a different domicile than Sdf 75. A 75 captain wanting to remain as a captain would not automaticly fall into z unless the company wanted. They may want him in an MD or a bus rather than create another bump

SDFZ is a different domicile, which keeps a DC8 Primary Displacee from going there. Here are the applicable steps for a Secondary Displacee.

Secondary Captain Displacment steps:
As he is the most junior Captain in domicile, he will bid either a or b. If the crewmember bids option a, but is unable to hold any position outlined by option a, the steps in option b shall be used for this crewmember.
a. System-wide to displace a more junior Captain
(1) Displaces most junior Captain system-wide on current equipment.
(2) Displaces most junior Captain system-wide (ANC).
b. Displaces most junior First Officer in his current equipment in present domicile.

Also, UPS cannot place anyone, as they must follow the steps in order just as we do. The steps are not choices, except for a or b.

I see a serious "gotcha" here. If you are a Secondary Displacee senior to another 757 person in another domicile, and bid option a expecting to get that slot, but you don't get it as someone senior does, then there is no option to choose F/O rather than ANC at this point.

FliFast
02-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Go find yourself a nice banner towing job then and good riddance


????????????????

727C47
02-12-2010, 04:35 PM
????????????????

you have to go back to the middle of the thread for context.

FliFast
02-12-2010, 04:37 PM
I guess so..just seems like a negative comment under any pretense.

CL247
02-12-2010, 08:22 PM
I guess so..just seems like a negative comment under any pretense.

FliFast - SILENCE! Get back in your igloo, unless I come up there for CA, then come drink beerz.

FrontSeat
02-12-2010, 09:17 PM
Go find yourself a nice banner towing job then and good riddance

No I think I will stay and make managers like you miserable.

highsky
02-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Talk about selfish.
Its OK for you to take advantages of age 65 to make up for any career set backs, but not for our age 60 guys?

We wouldn't have any "career set backs," were it not for Age 65.

I knew the rules, 22 years ago, when I entered this business. The over 60 guys knew the rules also, 42 years ago, when they entered this business; the only difference is: They got to change the rules when they had some "career set backs."

I don't get an extra five years of being a captain, due to Age 65: I now get an extra five years of being furloughed. Put it in perspective, and perhaps a bit more sympathy, while I am bankrupt, and 300 families are staring insolvency in the face.

highsky
02-13-2010, 12:05 AM
Its the Law. Well I guess you can blame congress......:eek:
Just who do you think was pressuring congress to change the law? It certainly wasn't the 75% of us who had something to lose with its passing.

Not trying to start a flame war over water under the bridge...just sayin'.

767pilot
02-13-2010, 01:05 PM
I guess so..just seems like a negative comment under any pretense.

Indeed it is. if the guy thinks that towing banners is a better job than the one he has at UPS, he should go find a good one and be happy.

767pilot
02-13-2010, 01:07 PM
We wouldn't have any "career set backs," were it not for Age 65.

There are all sorts of career setbacks. Hell, this doesn't even qualify as a big one. Some of the age >60 guys saw much bigger hits in the 70's and 80's. I'm glad that the last 22 years have been smooth sailing for you up until now.

JustUnderPar
02-13-2010, 01:36 PM
There are all sorts of career setbacks. Hell, this doesn't even qualify as a big one.

Pretty cowardly dude. Not a big one till it effects you I guess. We need QUALITY Captain leadership now, NOT this petty crap!:mad:


One a side note the FedEx marketing department was very happy we announced a furlough. Those guys will be going after our market share. Very motivated and capable. Wouldn't say that about many here with all the layoffs and cutbacks. How many managers got the AXE?

Been a lot of service failures lately too.:mad: I want this company to succeed as much as any employee, but boy are they making it hard right now!! Hope Atlanta keeps giving themselves pay raises.

Busboy
02-13-2010, 03:03 PM
I don't have dog in this fight...But, I think it's pretty comical someone is using an over 60 guy's "hit" in the 70's as an argument. So, 30 to 40 years later...They still haven't recovered?:rolleyes:

FR8TFLYER
02-13-2010, 03:39 PM
Pretty cowardly dude. Not a big one till it effects you I guess. We need QUALITY Captain leadership now, NOT this petty crap!:mad:


One a side note the FedEx marketing department was very happy we announced a furlough. Those guys will be going after our market share. Very motivated and capable. Wouldn't say that about many here with all the layoffs and cutbacks. How many managers got the AXE?

Been a lot of service failures lately too.:mad: I want this company to succeed as much as any employee, but boy are they making it hard right now!! Hope Atlanta keeps giving themselves pay raises.

Do you know for a fact there have been service failures? Honestly I am glad if this is true. This is the only way this company will pay any attention to what is going on. I do know they cancelled a 747 out of ANC for PVG the other day, no Captain. I know there have been a lot of late flights, oh well, that just sucks doesn't it!

roadwarrior
02-13-2010, 04:01 PM
Go find yourself a nice banner towing job then and good riddance

Way to lead from the front "Captain"......he was only saying he's had that as a job.

Your maturity is certainly eclipsed by your age.

Night Eagle
02-13-2010, 04:07 PM
I have met and flown with FrontSeat. He is a stand up guy, and it was a pleasure to fly with. He just doesn't have a (PC) filter he says what he feels. If he was a senior Captain at UPS no one would question him of course.

By the way any of you that fly the 747-400 can thank him personally for buying the serving trays for the crews. That's correct he bought all those trays out of his pocket. Finally convinced UPS to pay him back of course they took credit for it.

Just received my UPS second day air package this Saturday (Bottom 170). My wife was out front with my kids and the driver said sorry he knew exactly what was inside. The strange thing is I don't live anywhere near "Looneyville." My wife told him she would prefer a service failure and he laughed.

I am with you FrontSeat no bag tags or stickers comparing the 300 with the 88 hires both groups are completely different. I am all for Spartans, 300, or Concessions Stand Closed!

757upspilot
02-13-2010, 04:42 PM
I have met and flown with FrontSeat. He is a stand up guy, and it was a pleasure to fly with. He just doesn't have a (PC) filter he says what he feels. If he was a senior Captain at UPS no one would question him of course.

By the way any of you that fly the 747-400 can thank him personally for buying the serving trays for the crews. That's correct he bought all those trays out of his pocket. Finally convinced UPS to pay him back of course they took credit for it.

Just received my UPS second day air package this Saturday (Bottom 170). My wife was out front with my kids and the driver said sorry he knew exactly what was inside. The strange thing is I don't live anywhere near "Looneyville." My wife told him she would prefer a service failure and he laughed.

I am with you FrontSeat no bag tags or stickers comparing the 300 with the 88 hires both groups are completely different. I am al for Spartans, 300, or Concessions Stand Closed!

You are correct they are completely different.

Lester Burnham
02-13-2010, 06:43 PM
Front Seat,

Care to elaborate for those of us who couldn't make it?

CheyDogFlies
02-13-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm sure someone else has thought of this already, but how about a sticker with the 100% IPA logo, and "Wrap your hands around this"

JustUnderPar
02-13-2010, 07:25 PM
Do you know for a fact there have been service failures? Honestly I am glad if this is true. This is the only way this company will pay any attention to what is going on. I do know they cancelled a 747 out of ANC for PVG the other day, no Captain. I know there have been a lot of late flights, oh well, that just sucks doesn't it!

I do know for a fact:D

And FedEx marketing guys are eating this up!!! With the current CEO Cost is everything. Everything else takes the second seat.

Be SAFE out there!!

FrontSeat
02-13-2010, 08:02 PM
Front Seat,

Care to elaborate for those of us who couldn't make it?

did not learn anything that was not already on the bar and grill or IPNN.

All of the questions will have answers in the next week or 2. If anyone is in the bottom 170 like myself the healthiest thing you can do is to forget this place ever existed and move on to a different company and never come back.

JustUnderPar
02-13-2010, 08:21 PM
did not learn anything that was not already on the bar and grill or IPNN.

All of the questions will have answers in the next week or 2. If anyone is in the bottom 170 like myself the healthiest thing you can do is to forget this place ever existed and move on to a different company and never come back.

WoW,
Have to say I agree. Thought this place was great! Soon changed though. Management here is just too much. Amazing what these people do with their employee's!!:mad:


Be safe out there!

Archie Bunker
02-13-2010, 08:58 PM
By the way any of you that fly the 747-400 can thank him personally for buying the serving trays for the crews. That's correct he bought all those trays out of his pocket. Finally convinced UPS to pay him back of course they took credit for it.

I thought he bought the clipboards too, didn't he?

FrontSeat
02-13-2010, 09:25 PM
I thought he bought the clipboards too, didn't he?

nope,,,I would have bought better ones... LOL...

I was going to buy nice heavy hangers that can handle the weight of our leather jackets and I was going to explore putting humidifiers on the airplanes.

But NOT anymore..........

JustUnderPar
02-13-2010, 09:32 PM
nope,,,I would have bought better ones... LOL...

I was going to buy nice heavy hangers that can handle the weight of our leather jackets and I was going to explore putting humidifiers on the airplanes.

But NOT anymore..........

Humidifiers would imply UPS cared about their employees. Are you CRAZY? You know once you retire (IF you make it that far) the company considers you stealing till you DIE.....

Fly SAFE out there.......

Buck92
02-13-2010, 09:41 PM
WoW,
.... Amazing what these people do with their employee's!!:mad:


I think the preposition you're looking for is 'to' ... what these people do to their employees. Along the lines of what the rapist does to his vitcim, not with! :D

727C47
02-13-2010, 10:20 PM
nope,,,I would have bought better ones... LOL...

I was going to buy nice heavy hangers that can handle the weight of our leather jackets and I was going to explore putting humidifiers on the airplanes.

But NOT anymore..........

We used to customize our freightdog DC-3s the same way,back in the prior century,so sorry to hear about your troubles. each,and everyone of you are better than these troubles,better skies lay ahead once you clear these storms.

FrontSeat
02-13-2010, 10:28 PM
better skies lay ahead once you clear these storms.

I think the only way these skies will get better is to leave the 121 world. Its always been a money and time loser for me.

FR8TFLYER
02-13-2010, 11:11 PM
Are you CRAZY? You know once you retire (IF you make it that far) the company considers you stealing till you DIE.....

Fly SAFE out there.......

What a statement that is, never heard it put like that, TRUE!

Shaggy1970
02-13-2010, 11:24 PM
I think the only way these skies will get better is to leave the 121 world. Its always been a money and time loser for me.

I think he is going to be our first martyr! Don't encourage him fellas! Please do not feed the animals! LMAO

Freightpuppy
02-14-2010, 06:35 AM
did not learn anything that was not already on the bar and grill or IPNN.

All of the questions will have answers in the next week or 2. If anyone is in the bottom 170 like myself the healthiest thing you can do is to forget this place ever existed and move on to a different company and never come back.

Yeah, but where is there to go?

FrontSeat
02-14-2010, 07:17 AM
Yeah, but where is there to go?

How about renting a studio apartment in East Van Nuys for a higher quality of life?

Commando
02-14-2010, 07:38 AM
Learn to BallRoom Dance and move to Naples, FL. LOL.

Freightpuppy
02-14-2010, 08:08 AM
How about renting a studio apartment in East Van Nuys for a higher quality of life?

Don't know anything about East Van Nuys so I'm not getting what you're getting at. :confused:

FrontSeat
02-14-2010, 12:19 PM
Don't know anything about East Van Nuys so I'm not getting what you're getting at. :confused:

You don't want to know......

JustUnderPar
02-14-2010, 08:04 PM
UPS is going to furlough at least 300 pilot. Some say more (475-535). This is going to last till 2015.
We have about 250-300 MANDATORY retirements by then.

So are they telling me that UPS has lost that much market share that they need to shrink the airline by 500-600 pilots.

Is there gonna be anything left to come back to?

Serious question.....



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