Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Would UPS do This?


Commando
02-11-2010, 02:17 PM
Just thinking how UPS operates. Could this all be to reduce Training, moving costs? Wishful Thinking, I know. UPS announces the Furlough, they then implement Art.14. They chose where everyone goes and this greatly reduces training, moving, and logistical costs. Big Time.

Then after the RIF bid closes, they get some minimal crumbs from the IPA, and they cancel the furlough. They save face. And they just moved everyone where they wanted to and saved big bucks.


freightretriever
02-11-2010, 03:02 PM
Just thinking how UPS operates. Could this all be to reduce Training, moving costs? Wishful Thinking, I know. UPS announces the Furlough, they then implement Art.14. They chose where everyone goes and this greatly reduces training, moving, and logistical costs. Big Time.

Then after the RIF bid closes, they get some minimal crumbs from the IPA, and they cancel the furlough. They save face. And they just moved everyone where they wanted to and saved big bucks.

They could. But in a word NO. This is not about the little figure they threw out for us to chase after. They want the contract and mark my words - they will get what they want. I appreciate all the chest beating, 100% IPA, don't open the contract. Great intentions.......but guess what. Like it or not the contract will be open in less than two years. Negotiating a contract in a what most likely will be a weak economy with 100's of guys on the street................sorry but if we ever get called back I am pretty sure it won't be to the contract we left behind.

Commando
02-11-2010, 03:25 PM
Retriever. Put down your pipe or whatever your smokin. I don't know how long you've been here, but let me put it plainly.

THE CONTRACT WILL NOT BE OPENED. PERIOD.

And I must educate you on the RLA. Contracts never expire. Never. They are amended. We don't have to even talk to the bozo's until 1/1/2012. Then we talk about Catering, Uniforms, etc. for the first 2 years. Just like every airline contract for the past 30 years does. No meaningful talks will take place until all Furloughees are back by over a year or more. So this talk of negotiating from weakness is BS.


L'il J.Seinfeld
02-11-2010, 03:29 PM
Urlough or not we will be lucky to keep our hourly rates and minimum guarantee and the EB knows and has stated such.

Commando
02-11-2010, 03:39 PM
Hourly rates or our guarantee has never been spoken by our EB. Or by our Prez. He said we will be lucky to keep what we have. Nothing specific about Hourly or our guarantee. And what was said during a stump speech, and what is said in 2014-2015, are polar opposites.

Freightpuppy
02-11-2010, 03:51 PM
Maybe we just need to drag out the negotiations.....

I don't see how we can't keep the rates and guarantee...they are making boatloads of money. What's going to be their rationale?

say that again
02-11-2010, 04:07 PM
Maybe we just need to drag out the negotiations.....

I don't see how we can't keep the rates and guarantee...they are making boatloads of money. What's going to be their rationale?
There is a fundamental difference this time around. In the past, UPS was the one's dragging their feet. This time it will be the IPA dragging their feet. It is possible that UPS will be able to pressure the NMB to declare an impasse sooner than what we have experienced in the past. In this scenario, the choice to strike may come sooner rather than later.

Roberto
02-11-2010, 04:10 PM
Just thinking how UPS operates. Could this all be to reduce Training, moving costs? Wishful Thinking, I know. UPS announces the Furlough, they then implement Art.14. They chose where everyone goes and this greatly reduces training, moving, and logistical costs. Big Time.

Then after the RIF bid closes, they get some minimal crumbs from the IPA, and they cancel the furlough. They save face. And they just moved everyone where they wanted to and saved big bucks.

That would be a neat trick *IF* UPS needs the pilots after a short furlough of only the first 54...

freightretriever
02-11-2010, 04:17 PM
Retriever. Put down your pipe or whatever your smokin. I don't know how long you've been here, but let me put it plainly.

THE CONTRACT WILL NOT BE OPENED. PERIOD.

And I must educate you on the RLA. Contracts never expire. Never. They are amended. We don't have to even talk to the bozo's until 1/1/2012. Then we talk about Catering, Uniforms, etc. for the first 2 years. Just like every airline contract for the past 30 years does. No meaningful talks will take place until all Furloughees are back by over a year or more. So this talk of negotiating from weakness is BS.

Copied form our contract:

This Agreement shall be in full force and effect from the date it is signed by the parties consistent with the Letter of Agreement on Implementation to and including the amendable date of December 31, 2011


What I am smoking is a big dose of REALITY. Maybe you should take time to actually READ my post there Commando. I never stated anywhere in my post that our contract expires. I have worked under the RLA for 13 years now so I am familiar. I have also been on strike under the RLA. You???? Anyway, last time I checked my basic math skills Dec 31st 2011 is less than two years away. So yes, your precious contract will be OPENED and amendable in less than two years like it or not. As far as how the negotiations go.......you have your opinion I have mine. All I can say is yours is an easy one to have as you continue to collect your paycheck.

Commando
02-11-2010, 04:21 PM
The NMB now has two of the Three members appointed by pro-labor Dems. The last 20 years or so it's been two to one the other way. I don't see the NMB releasing anyone early. Have you watched the Contracts during the last 10 years? ASA, Pinnicle, NetJets, ExpressOne, AMR(Pilots, FA's, Mech.), etc., etc.

All take a minimum of 36 months. Some over 60 months to get an amendment.
We will be Striking or Voting on a Better/Industry leading Contract in 2015 at the earliest.

Commando
02-11-2010, 04:25 PM
I said 1/1/2012, You say 12/31/2011. Whatever. One Day! Like I said before, there won't be any meaningful talks until 2014, and something to Vote on until 2015. Things change big time by then. And we will have the leverage.

Naven
02-11-2010, 06:10 PM
There is a fundamental difference this time around. In the past, UPS was the one's dragging their feet. This time it will be the IPA dragging their feet. It is possible that UPS will be able to pressure the NMB to declare an impasse sooner than what we have experienced in the past. In this scenario, the choice to strike may come sooner rather than later.
I think UPS will try to get an impasse declared sooner rather then later. The biggest problem with the MOU is we showed UPS that we have 30% of us that would cross a picket line immediately.

Vman
02-11-2010, 07:32 PM
Guys, stop all of the fruitless speculation. Just deal with what has been placed before us. They say "F", expect that that they will. The BT thrush video says it all. We have had time to prepare so this should come as no surprise. Be professional, fly the contract and only the contract, and let the union speak for us!

I'm out the door with the first 54 so for those of you who feel this is an injustice, I feel the same but that's life. Deal with it the best you can but remember that the culprit is not our union brothers: we have done all we could to avoid this...

McBoeingBus
02-11-2010, 07:40 PM
1st, the IPA won't/can't strike. RLA and all of that, I don't see it. Plus, what is there to strike about? Furloughed guys. If the government lets that happen, then the whole industry shuts down. AA, UAL, CAL all have guys out.
2nd, I think the 1/3 that did jack are either selfish, lazy or a lot smarter than the 2/3. I doubt they are actually smarter, perhaps lucky. I don't think all of these guys would cross a picket. A few, but not all.
3rd, UPS has about 180, or whatever the number is, managers ready, willing and with marching orders to cross any picket. Some don't care and will cross, some would love to cross, but they all will fly when told to.
One final thought, UPS is a ruthless company run by some SOBs. I hope the whole thing was a bluff and 7 May it's called off. If not, I feel for the bottom 54 and most likely another 100. I don't think that you'll see the furloughs going into 2006 classes. No matter what happens, or what the pilots were thinking when they were hired at UPS, it just became a job. That's sad.

MBB

nightrider
02-11-2010, 07:44 PM
Would they do this ? are you kidding. I forecast the first 170 will go, and then they will realize with us not doing overtime, and the change in overtime they have overshot the mark and we will hold at the 170 for a while then by 2011 or 12 we will start to recall.

Tigerpilot1995
02-11-2010, 07:56 PM
If and when I am furloughed I am not a hostage. My family and I will be fine without UPS. In fact, we will be a better family without their negative energy in our house.

No waivers, No favors, 100% IPA

Swedish Blender
02-11-2010, 08:13 PM
3rd, UPS has about 180, or whatever the number is, managers ready, willing and with marching orders to cross any picket. Some don't care and will cross, some would love to cross, but they all will fly when told to.
MBB

IPA honored the Teamsters strike. What makes you think there would be any boxes for the managers to move?

McBoeingBus
02-11-2010, 08:17 PM
I think you'd be able to continue overseas operations and there is always someone that either doesn't care or understand a picket line.

FR8TFLYER
02-11-2010, 08:21 PM
1st, the IPA won't/can't strike. RLA and all of that, I don't see it. Plus, what is there to strike about? Furloughed guys. If the government lets that happen, then the whole industry shuts down. AA, UAL, CAL all have guys out.
2nd, I think the 1/3 that did jack are either selfish, lazy or a lot smarter than the 2/3. I doubt they are actually smarter, perhaps lucky. I don't think all of these guys would cross a picket. A few, but not all.
3rd, UPS has about 180, or whatever the number is, managers ready, willing and with marching orders to cross any picket. Some don't care and will cross, some would love to cross, but they all will fly when told to.
One final thought, UPS is a ruthless company run by some SOBs. I hope the whole thing was a bluff and 7 May it's called off. If not, I feel for the bottom 54 and most likely another 100. I don't think that you'll see the furloughs going into 2006 classes. No matter what happens, or what the pilots were thinking when they were hired at UPS, it just became a job. That's sad.

MBB
What is with the strike talk. a strike is not an option, never has been. This about these thugs declining the MOU, changing the goals, announcing a furlough, etc...

I just flew with a manager who asked me directly, why would you not take a temporary pay cut with a later snap back?

I told him, why should we open the contract and take a pay cut when the company is doing fine fiscally and the management just had raises/bonuses reinstated? Also told him I have no confidence or trust in this management team and their word. He had absolutely nothing to say. I am convinced these manglers (these guys are not our friends) have been given guidance to ask these questions and see what our sense of unity is. Those of you who think these guys are your buddies are fooling yourselves, distance yourself from these frauds.

McBoeingBus
02-11-2010, 08:41 PM
Ref Naven's post on 30%. I don't think you'll ever see a strike.

Shaggy1970
02-11-2010, 09:26 PM
What is with the strike talk. a strike is not an option, never has been. This about these thugs declining the MOU, changing the goals, announcing a furlough, etc...

I just flew with a manager who asked me directly, why would you not take a temporary pay cut with a later snap back?

I told him, why should we open the contract and take a pay cut when the company is doing fine fiscally and the management just had raises/bonuses reinstated? Also told him I have no confidence or trust in this management team and their word. He had absolutely nothing to say. I am convinced these manglers (these guys are not our friends) have been given guidance to ask these questions and see what our sense of unity is. Those of you who think these guys are your buddies are fooling yourselves, distance yourself from these frauds.

I hear what your saying and I don't trust anyone of them, but most of the managers especially in ANC are pretty stand-up guys. None of these guys can control what is happening and they too have a gun held to their heads just like the bottom 300. Fly or be fired! They don't want this either. The bean counters in Atlanta drive this train never forget that!

ThreeSides
02-12-2010, 02:53 AM
I hear what your saying and I don't trust anyone of them, but most of the managers especially in ANC are pretty stand-up guys. None of these guys can control what is happening and they too have a gun held to their heads just like the bottom 300. Fly or be fired! They don't want this either. The bean counters in Atlanta drive this train never forget that!

UPS also thinks their managers are stand up guys, and that includes the Anchorage ones. Back when the eb was originally negotiating the MOU, SJ would find bottom 300 guys in the ready room preparing for a flight, ask to talk to them, and then tell them how the eb wasn't representing them, and that they should pressure the eb to take concessions.
ANC training center managers would start the same mind games and sales pitch in the sim during AQP.
I hope everyone has learned, and is too smart for such antics now.

Airbum
02-12-2010, 03:20 AM
UPS also thinks their managers are stand up guys, and that includes the Anchorage ones. Back when the eb was originally negotiating the MOU, SJ would find bottom 300 guys in the ready room preparing for a flight, ask to talk to them, and then tell them how the eb wasn't representing them, and that they should pressure the eb to take concessions.
ANC training center managers would start the same mind games and sales pitch in the sim during AQP.
I hope everyone has learned, and is too smart for such antics now.

I remember listening to the United scab ACP in ANC stating the exact same thing back during the furlough threat in 2003.

The next group of new hires will here the same words in future also.

Airbum
02-12-2010, 03:32 AM
UPS also thinks their managers are stand up guys, and that includes the Anchorage ones. Back when the eb was originally negotiating the MOU, SJ would find bottom 300 guys in the ready room preparing for a flight, ask to talk to them, and then tell them how the eb wasn't representing them, and that they should pressure the eb to take concessions.
ANC training center managers would start the same mind games and sales pitch in the sim during AQP.
I hope everyone has learned, and is too smart for such antics now.



deleted deleted

757upspilot
02-12-2010, 06:50 AM
I think UPS will try to get an impasse declared sooner rather then later. The biggest problem with the MOU is we showed UPS that we have 30% of us that would cross a picket line immediately.
this is easily the dumbest thing I have seen on this site.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-12-2010, 08:13 AM
I hear what your saying and I don't trust anyone of them, but most of the managers especially in ANC are pretty stand-up guys. None of these guys can control what is happening and they too have a gun held to their heads just like the bottom 300. Fly or be fired! They don't want this either. The bean counters in Atlanta drive this train never forget that!

They may be stand up guys, but let's not forget who signs their check. These guys, no matter where they are, are not your friends and you should not trust anything that they tell you............period!

FR8TFLYER
02-12-2010, 08:30 AM
Shaggy-

Be careful around these guys, especially up in ANC. We have many of IPA pilots who seem to be rather tight with the managers. Listen closely to what they say. It is kind of a "soft sell" on trying to get in your head. Just wait until the next time they need you to waive something to get that loaded airplane to the Pac Rim, Jennings will just tell you how important it is etc... then slip a Starbucks gift card your way (seen him do this) as a token of his appreciation for making it happen. They care about themselves, not YOU!

Buck92
02-12-2010, 08:45 AM
Ah...the old Starbucks gift card. Seen that one done myself up there. Priceless.

JustUnderPar
02-12-2010, 09:04 AM
Ah...the old Starbucks gift card. Seen that one done myself up there. Priceless.

Interesting the way hourly employees get treated at The Big BROWN.

JustUnderPar
02-12-2010, 09:06 AM
I think UPS will try to get an impasse declared sooner rather then later. The biggest problem with the MOU is we showed UPS that we have 30% of us that would cross a picket line immediately.

I have to disagree on this one. :eek: