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View Full Version : My over 60 captain


Goose17
02-15-2010, 09:22 PM
So, my last flight started out normally… Met at the folder - chatting, getting to know each other a bit. The captain says he lives in MEM, but starts talking about his vacation home in FL on the Gulf. I told him it sounded nice. He then goes on to say he was on a make-up sick trip to keep his sick bank maxed out so the company will keep sending him a big bonus check into his retirement account. Hmmmm - I say. He then tells me he should start receiving his Reserves retirement any day. This prompts me to ask him how old he was to which he informs me he is over 60 now.

So, after the flight I said I have a debrief item. Not on the flight itself, but more on and etiquette level. I said most FOs are not too happy about the age 65 deal - myself included. Also, during 4a2b, most guys are not flying extra - mself included. So, on future flights I wouldn't be volunteering info about extra flying, bonus retirement checks, flying past 60, etc.

His response was he was working on his high 5, to which I replied he was working on his bonus 5 at our (FOs) expense.

Goose17


Fishfreighter
02-15-2010, 09:35 PM
His response was he was working on his high 5, to which I replied he was working on his bonus 5 at our (FOs) expense.

Goose,

I'll grant you this guy's social skills are deficient. But I have just one question:

Why do you young studs think you're ENTITLED to anything? "Its the economy, Stupid!," as the Clinton campaign liked to say.

Personally, I'm happy to just have job and a regular paycheck coming in.

Busdrivr
02-15-2010, 09:44 PM
So, my last flight started out normally… Met at the folder - chatting, getting to know each other a bit. The captain says he lives in MEM, but starts talking about his vacation home in FL on the Gulf. I told him it sounded nice. He then goes on to say he was on a make-up sick trip to keep his sick bank maxed out so the company will keep sending him a big bonus check into his retirement account. Hmmmm - I say. He then tells me he should start receiving his Reserves retirement any day. This prompts me to ask him how old he was to which he informs me he is over 60 now.

So, after the flight I said I have a debrief item. Not on the flight itself, but more on and etiquette level. I said most FOs are not too happy about the age 65 deal - myself included. Also, during 4a2b, most guys are not flying extra - mself included. So, on future flights I wouldn't be volunteering info about extra flying, bonus retirement checks, flying past 60, etc.

His response was he was working on his high 5, to which I replied he was working on his bonus 5 at our (FOs) expense.

Goose17
Goose, get a life dude. Why are you obsessing over this guy? And you seriously Debriefed a Captain,.... give me a break. We have contract negations coming up. Why are you worring over one guy trying to make a Cono payment?


skypine27
02-15-2010, 10:11 PM
I'm with Goose on this one.

"Oooo, you debriefed a captain!?!?"

**** what seat the guy is in; You have something to say, you say it. This ain't the military. We're all civilians working at a Fortune 100 company.

No need to be rude or confrontational. Just giving the guy a heads up, I would have (and have) done the same.

Edit: Ran it through IE-Spell and it only found one error. Am I the bad speller and/or drunk guy? Been known to be both more than once, though I can't spot it in this particular post.

steel
02-15-2010, 10:15 PM
goose,

I applaud your efforts. They're needed to help the crm safety issue at hand. Thankfully, most over 60 guys/gals understand the delicate issue. On a personal level, anyone debriefing a "captain" on this is on my "i'll buy you a beer" list. I think our captains forget why they are captains...because they were hired before the fos. As most of us see, it isn't because they are any better than anyone else.

As to the other two replys here, one is obviously an older gentelman; the other gentleman is drunk or a really bad speller.

Nobody was entitled to anything. But, we all have to plan according to the rules of the era. Unfortunately, we are in a new era, the 65 era. How anyone who is over 60 is telling another that they are working on their high 5 is either a horrible planner or lying. Either way, they have made their bed, so let them sleep in it instead of us "younger studs" bailing them out of their ppppp.

FrontSeat
02-15-2010, 10:35 PM
And you seriously Debriefed a Captain,.... give me a break.

Last time I checked a captain, in the USA anyway, is a person who just got hired before you. Takes the same checkride etc.

There are more then a few captains who need to be debriefed. Especially on etiquette.

42GO
02-16-2010, 02:17 AM
Goose, You are the one that needs to be debriefed. If it is wrong to make up sick leave, for whatever reason, you guys, meaning those less than 60, need to get a life.

I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

boost
02-16-2010, 02:31 AM
42GO,
I couldn't disagree more sir. The only arrogant ass in the cockpit was the Captain. Everyone should be aware of the impact of 4A2B by now, and to sit there for hours and brag about working extra, working extra years, and receiving additional pay through sick time is way beyond a level of arrogance that I would be comfortable with. How is that NOT creating animosity in the cockpit? He could easily talk about anything else, and let's face it, you are pretty much a captive audience as an FO in a 2 man cockpit!

I don't see any problem with the FO waiting till the end of the flight to remind the Capt. to be a little more considerate. At least goose waited till the debrief item, where as the Capt. bragged the entire way during normal ops. How is a team player like goose the problem again?

boost:confused:

skypine27
02-16-2010, 02:36 AM
I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

You're pretty funny.

No where did Goose indicate he was anything less than respectful and courteous in the way in which he brought this up to the captain.

Something else, I might add, it sounds like the captain could learn from.

OffRoad5150
02-16-2010, 03:19 AM
Goose17: well said!

42GO: you're flat out wrong pal. ANY captain that runs their mouth about how much $$$ they've accumulated has an ego problem. I simply tell them I don't want to hear about it.

CAVU
02-16-2010, 03:22 AM
21 years of human factors training at FedEx and this is what we have to show for it. Unbelievable…

Jetjok
02-16-2010, 03:50 AM
I was in my first year at FedEx and manning the back seat of the jurassic jet on a flight from Memphis to LAX. All was going well and I was looking forward to the weekend layover in Marina Del Ray, when out of the corner of my eye, I saw the Captain rummaging through his flight bag. Shortly thereafter, he passed me a piece of paper and said: "now that's a pay check to be proud of."

As I looked at his pay recap summary sheet, I remember thinking that $39,000 dollars was not a lot of money for a Captain to be making, a quarter. Then I realized that it was a monthly pay sheet, at which time I was ready to break out the crash ax and finish the jerk off. A few minutes later he turned to me and said: "so what do you think of that!", to which I told him that I thought he had a lot of nerve, showing me that sheet, because he was making as much in a month as I made all year. I also went on to tell him (he had already announced that he was on a draft trip) that it was because of guys like him, that I was still, and would remain for some time, a Second Officer, and that I didn't appreciate it one little bit. To which he told me: "I don't really care about the junior guys." While I could appreciate his honesty, I detested him as a person, and so when he suggested we get together for dinner that night and breakfast the next day, I told him: "not in this lifetime." On layover, I went my separate way, and except for checklist items on the return flight, didn't say another word to him. And of course, I'll never forget Sid H's name.

No one has the right to rub your nose in it, and regardless of whether they are a Captain or not, they should have to sensitivity and where-with-all to intuitively understand that their insensitive comments can easily cause a rift in their crew. The guy was totally wrong and Goose, you did the right thing, especially saying it in a non-confrontational manner. Hopefully he'll think about that before he subjects anyone else to his drivel.

JJ

MEMFO4Ever
02-16-2010, 04:21 AM
I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

Like they say on SNL...REALLY? How? Last I checked Captain's stop being managers the second the termination checklist is complete. What do you propose, ratting him out for 'talking' to the poor, sensitive captain?

Or maybe you are referring to the union's Pro-Stan department. They have the authority of a Yugo on the Autobahn.

And I got news for you...if you advertise how "good" you have it, someone will get mad. The animosity already exists. Count on it.

FoxHunter
02-16-2010, 04:21 AM
I was in my first year at FedEx and manning the back seat of the jurassic jet on a flight from Memphis to LAX. All was going well and I was looking forward to the weekend layover in Marina Del Ray, when out of the corner of my eye, I saw the Captain rummaging through his flight bag. Shortly thereafter, he passed me a piece of paper and said: "now that's a pay check to be proud of."

As I looked at his pay recap summary sheet, I remember thinking that $39,000 dollars was not a lot of money for a Captain to be making, a quarter. Then I realized that it was a monthly pay sheet, at which time I was ready to break out the crash ax and finish the jerk off. A few minutes later he turned to me and said: "so what do you think of that!", to which I told him that I thought he had a lot of nerve, showing me that sheet, because he was making as much in a month as I made all year. I also went on to tell him (he had already announced that he was on a draft trip) that it was because of guys like him, that I was still, and would remain for some time, a Second Officer, and that I didn't appreciate it one little bit. To which he told me: "I don't really care about the junior guys." While I could appreciate his honesty, I detested him as a person, and so when he suggested we get together for dinner that night and breakfast the next day, I told him: "not in this lifetime." On layover, I went my separate way, and except for checklist items on the return flight, didn't say another word to him. And of course, I'll never forget Sid H's name.

No one has the right to rub your nose in it, and regardless of whether they are a Captain or not, they should have to sensitivity and where-with-all to intuitively understand that their insensitive comments can easily cause a rift in their crew. The guy was totally wrong and Goose, you did the right thing, especially saying it in a non-confrontational manner. Hopefully he'll think about that before he subjects anyone else to his drivel.

JJ

I'll bet he didn't get any coffee either? ;)

Shuckers86
02-16-2010, 05:35 AM
The Shutdown checklist has an item called Debrief. My flight manual reads "encourages open discussion". I believe this means two way communication not Captain telling the First Officer what he should think. We are all supposed to be adults.

I feel Goose should point out to this Captain that not all F/Os want to hear about his riches. It is poor "home training" to brag about your wealth to anyone.

I was able to become a wide body captain at 40 not because I was a Chuck Yeager clone but because I was hired at the right time. I believe you should treat your F/Os with the utmost respect. Besides the F/O may see something you don't see and therefore cover your a$$.

AFW_MD11
02-16-2010, 06:05 AM
Goose, You are the one that needs to be debriefed. If it is wrong to make up sick leave, for whatever reason, you guys, meaning those less than 60, need to get a life.

I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

"42Go" eh?

that wouldn't mean you're 61 yrs old would it? (4 yrs to go to retirement @ 65?)

immediately puts your comments in perspective - ignored!

(you were probably the captain in the story!! Go ahead & report him....I dare ya!) :eek:

Freightpuppy
02-16-2010, 06:09 AM
The Shutdown checklist has an item called Debrief. My flight manual reads "encourages open discussion". I believe this means two way communication not Captain telling the First Officer what he should think. We are all supposed to be adults.

I feel Goose should point out to this Captain that not all F/Os want to hear about his riches. It is poor "home training" to brag about your wealth to anyone.

I was able to become a wide body captain at 40 not because I was a Chuck Yeager clone but because I was hired at the right time. I believe you should treat your F/Os with the utmost respect. Besides the F/O may see something you don't see and therefore cover your a$$.

Someone who gets it!

MD11Fr8Dog
02-16-2010, 06:18 AM
Goose, You are the one that needs to be debriefed. If it is wrong to make up sick leave, for whatever reason, you guys, meaning those less than 60, need to get a life.

I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

So, are you saying its going to be hard for "this Captain", who is over 60, to remember/find out, who he just recently flew with and then "debriefed" him. :rolleyes:

golfandfly
02-16-2010, 06:20 AM
We've all flown with a guy like that. Most of these guys that talk about their wealth are also the the same ones that tip a whole dollar for a driver that takes you 45 minutes to the hotel. Or the guy that orders the cheapest thing on the menu.. You get the idea. He may retire with millions but forgot to enjoy life.

I wouldn't worry about being reported. The debrief was the perfect place for this conversation. It seems like some guys have been flying night freight for so long that they have lost the few social skills they had acquired.

Unknown Rider
02-16-2010, 06:31 AM
While I agree that it's poor etiquette to brag about your latest toy or vacation home etc., this type of behavior isn't limited to just those over 60. I've had plenty of young guys who couldn't wait to show me pictures of their airplane or tell me about the two vacation homes or how much they made in the stock market last year. While these are sometimes topics that can be brought up in conversation, I find it poor manners to introduce them in the first hour that I've known you. It also makes a person seem insecure in who they are if they can whip out that picture of their airplane like a quickdraw gunfighter. Personally, I'd rather hear about someone's kids.

AFW_MD11
02-16-2010, 06:41 AM
While I agree that it's poor etiquette to brag about your latest toy or vacation home etc., this type of behavior isn't limited to just those over 60. I've had plenty of young guys who couldn't wait to show me pictures of their airplane or tell me about the two vacation homes or how much they made in the stock market last year. While these are sometimes topics that can be brought up in conversation, I find it poor manners to introduce them in the first hour that I've known you. It also makes a person seem insecure in who they are if they can whip out that picture of their airplane like a quickdraw gunfighter. Personally, I'd rather hear about someone's kids.

Having a screen name like Boycaptain for example?

Cargo Man
02-16-2010, 06:54 AM
Well it’s really no mystery that CA’s make more then FO’s. And its no mystery that there is always going to be someone around that makes more then me.
That being said, with some people you could triple their wages and they still would have nothing to show for it, let alone a good character.

Daniel Larusso
02-16-2010, 06:56 AM
And you seriously Debriefed a Captain,.... give me a break.

I would submit that any captain who thinks like this, doesn't have FO's or SO's who are actually listening to what they're saying. Also, while we thankfully have many crewmembers who think differently, from a corporate standpoint as long as we have the mentality above I think the debrief item on the checklist is pretty much useless.

Deuce130
02-16-2010, 07:09 AM
I'll throw my support towards Goose17 on this one. Well done, bro. And, no, this is not simply a "yeah, stick it to that old ba$tard" type cheer. The debrief item was legitimate and I'm glad that CA got called on it. I flew with a non member (KB) a couple of years ago who also bragged about his Gulf Coast condo also. I imagine not paying union dues for so many years would help pay down the cost of that investment. I wish I had mentioned it.

Good job, Goose.

Edit: NO! I am NOT comparing contractually allowed items with being a non-member. I only compare the two to illustrate that some guys don't realize how they sound when it comes to bragging about money and toys.

FDX1
02-16-2010, 07:13 AM
Goose, You are the one that needs to be debriefed. If it is wrong to make up sick leave, for whatever reason, you guys, meaning those less than 60, need to get a life.

I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

Really? So the F/O was bothered by the Captain's poor "team building" skills at the brief and shouldn't say anything in the debrief about it? WRONG!!!

Guess what "Chief" not only should he but its his responsibility to mention it to him. It just might keep Captain X from making the same mistake next flight and maybe not create such animosity even before they step one foot in the cockpit door. Sorry to say there are always a few that just don't get it and even in light of the fact that the issue is probably the single most frustrating aspect of our job at this moment.

I agree "this type of animosity shouldn't be created in our cockpit". Unfortunately the only reason there was any animosity was a direct result of the Captains pre-brief dribble. In fact the F/O did everything correct by discussing it after the flight to give Captain Clueless some SA for future flights.

Its not our job to worry about what the other guy chooses to do as a result of 4a2b. It is our job to mind the seriousness of the issue and not create significant obstacles to a safe, effective, professional cockpit environment.

Please, report this F/O to ProStan so he can provide the next article for Straight-in-Approach on "How to keep it professional in light of stupidity".:rolleyes:

Commando
02-16-2010, 07:14 AM
Like my comments in a Different Thread, you guys are screwed. After reading this Thread and the earlier one, I see you guys at Purple have Zero, Nahda, Unity. Having Captains act that way is very poor. And then you have Captains coming on here and supporting it. Very Sad.

Hope you guys have a Strong MEC chairman. This is not good for us at UPS, since you guys go First this time.

767 Captain at UPS-

FDX1
02-16-2010, 07:21 AM
Like my comments in a Different Thread, you guys are screwed. After reading this Thread and the earlier one, I see you guys at Purple have Zero, Nahda, Unity. Having Captains act that way is very poor. And then you have Captains coming on here and supporting it. Very Sad.

Hope you guys have a Strong MEC chairman. This is not good for us at UPS, since you guys go First this time.

767 Captain at UPS-

Great, now we have a UPS Captain zeroing in on our "Unity" based on 15 FedEx pilots rants.

Come on man, aren't the UPS threads very interesting?;)

nakazawa
02-16-2010, 07:23 AM
Sirs:
Please refer to FCIF 10-0017 (Admin). Next, google H.R. 4343 - Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act. If you have WORD, reference 'senile dementia' and 'stupid'. I think those will cover most issues here.
As a Captain, I need to weigh many factors when I sign for the jet, not the least of which is knowing the crew is all headed in the same direction.
If a crew member decides he's going to 'sell back' sick hours when he retires, he must FIRST have over 686 hours in his bank. You do the math, but at left seat pay and in most cases, that's a HUGE give back for little gain. And, I believe MUS is a PDO trip - so unless he's got a HUGE sick bank, he's killing himself. Perhaps the Captain would have been better served with an accounting lesson, some basic math skills, and a review of his 401K plan. I know there are F/Os out there doing infinitely better than me on that.
Next, HR 4343 made a HUGE change that has caused much consternation. The rules changed in the beginning, middle, or end of the game - depending on where you happened to be. I'll have 14 years at FDX when I turn 60, and regardless of my post-60 plan, this was a bonus for me if I elect. If we have a good negotiating committee with a strong crew force, retaining the age 60 retirement without penalty should be OUR focus. MEC - TAKE NOTE!
I put the vocabulary lesson in for my benefit, and to keep this 'lite'. We had a Captain in ANC that opted at 23+ years to bid to the panel of the -10 so 'she'd' have a 25 year retirement. She went from W/B Captain's pay to S/O pay, which some claimed would be less than her retirement pay. I didn't do the math, but what I do know, her vacation buy-back was at S/O pay. Her sick-bank buy-back would have been at S/O pay. *** was she thinking?
So - I appreciate the tactfulness of being brought up to speed on a LOT of things, including financial management. At my seniority, I've been blessed with 59-62 CH hour months most of the time 4.A.2.b. has been in affect (one 39 CH month by mistake). There are some F/Os right now that can protect carry-over and are doing better than others, but they also gave up the left seat. Should I counsel them on their 4.A.2.b. behavior? MEC/NC - TAKE NOTE. Scheduling might need re-worked in our next CBA.
Here are some rules I was taught when I plumb'd on the jurassic jet:
1. S/Os DO NOT TIP!!!
2. Captain's on DRF pay all the limo tips (no exceptions cheap a$$e$)!
3. Captain's on DRF buy the first round, even if there's not a second round
4. Unless mutually asked, don't discuss
a. Ex spouses (women, ED was a medical problem back then)
b. Religion (I happened to own a 10 speed, but no, I'm not)
c. AMWAY - my wife has used it - I'm not buying any
d. PAY - our calendars are open, pay rates are in the CBA
5. Things open for discussion
a. How to dispose of neon light-bulbs made in China (not legal to make them in the US) because of the HAZ (mercury I think) in them.
b. How to dispose of a Toyota PRIUS (batteries are highly toxic and the car is a piece of crap)
c. FDX's contribution to JGR and the #11 NASCAR Team during 4.A.2.b. (that's Joe Gibbs Racing for the non-race enthusiasts)
d. FDX's contribution to the PGA's FedEx Cup during 4.A.2.b. (that's professional golf and T***r W**ds for the non-golfers)
e. FDX's contribution to Formula 1 Racing during 4.A.2.b. (that's the number 1 racing sport in the world, except for maybe NASCAR).
f. Why FedEx doesn't have an NHRA team when DHL and UPS do (that's National Hot Rod Association (dragsters and funny cars)). Talk about the world on time - 1,000 feet in 4 seconds!!!
g. Bonneville Salt Flats racing - we've got a former MD-11 Captain that designed a car that holds a land speed record there.
h. R**s B***z - he's retired and we'll all get a good laugh

Folks, in ANC we've been fighting the disputed pairing battle, questioning the hotel standby plan with MEM crews, and the non-existent optimizer. There are worse things out there, but congrats to GOOSE for compartmentalizing and waiting until the end of the trip for the discussion. Just maybe that's what CRM is all about.
Very Respectfully,
Nakazawa

Sideshow Bob
02-16-2010, 07:32 AM
You're pretty funny.

No where did Goose indicate he was anything less than respectful and courteous in the way in which he brought this up to the captain.

Something else, I might add, it sounds like the captain could learn from.

At the least it's an interesting sociological "debate" to ponder. IMO it only becomes a safety issue in this instance if the F/O allowed/allows it to cloud his/her judgement and how they interact with the CPT in the airplane. I'd have nothing to do with him outside of it for sure. The CPT, while clueless, callous, selfish and pathetic is fine with it (obviously bragging about me, me, me and me), and isn't stressed at all.

But no doubt, if the company came after retirement issues, he would be screaming for the junior guys to race to his aid, and go on and on about unity and how important the union is.

Bitme
02-16-2010, 07:38 AM
Like my comments in a Different Thread, you guys are screwed. After reading this Thread and the earlier one, I see you guys at Purple have Zero, Nahda, Unity. Having Captains act that way is very poor. And then you have Captains coming on here and supporting it. Very Sad.

Hope you guys have a Strong MEC chairman. This is not good for us at UPS, since you guys go First this time.

767 Captain at UPS-

It's amazing to me that you can see this so clearly 767 yet many of our guys just don't get it. Personally I want to thank your management team for settling with you guys last time when they did just before peak otherwise we would probably still not have a contract. Don't worry you're contract will probably settle first, which will again force FDX mgt to do something. With the I've got mine mentality at purple I just want to get to 25 years without losing some of what we have. Good luck to you.

golfandfly
02-16-2010, 07:44 AM
I find it somewhat amusing the UPS guy talks about our unity and how it is going to hurt their upcoming negotiations. If UPS had such great unity, why is that your guys didn't volunteer enough to make the savings target on the MOU?

While I agree that our unity is terrible, you should take care of your own house before worrying about ours....

Commando
02-16-2010, 08:51 AM
We Did !!!! @%&&*! Then UPS moved the Goal post. It was a money grab from the start. So we took our football and went home. I still stand by what I said, your screwed with the upcoming contract talks. The only guys there with any sense are the retiring Tiger guys. There should not be one Draft while your pay is being cut. IMHO.

FR8Hauler
02-16-2010, 09:02 AM
Goose, You are the one that needs to be debriefed. If it is wrong to make up sick leave, for whatever reason, you guys, meaning those less than 60, need to get a life.

I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

You are the one that is "out to lunch" on this one. Goose handled this perfectly. He waited till the trip was over and then brought it up to the captain on the debrief. If as a captain you can't handle a fo throwing out some advice you probably should be in a different line of work. Personally I welcome advice on how I can improve my CRM skills.

JustUnderPar
02-16-2010, 09:16 AM
Goose, get a life dude. And you seriously Debriefed a Captain,.... give me a break.


Bus.

Its called CRM. Ever hear of it? Anyone I know that cannot take a "debrief" is in the wrong business and an accident waiting to happen. I hope you are not a Capt over there.......

HazCan
02-16-2010, 09:22 AM
Like my comments in a Different Thread, you guys are screwed. After reading this Thread and the earlier one, I see you guys at Purple have Zero, Nahda, Unity. Having Captains act that way is very poor. And then you have Captains coming on here and supporting it. Very Sad.

Hope you guys have a Strong MEC chairman. This is not good for us at UPS, since you guys go First this time.

767 Captain at UPS-

This sucks to hear, especially from someone on the outside...however, you're not far off. :confused:

HazCan
02-16-2010, 09:23 AM
We Did !!!! @%&&*! Then UPS moved the Goal post. It was a money grab from the start. So we took our football and went home. I still stand by what I said, your screwed with the upcoming contract talks. The only guys there with any sense are the retiring Tiger guys. There should not be one Draft while your pay is being cut. IMHO.

I used to think that...then I flew with a Tiger Captain who was calling skds to see if there was anything else he could do, i.e. get his trip extended for big, big $$. They aren't immune to the dumbassedness.

diesel 8
02-16-2010, 09:23 AM
When I was in the left seat at my previous airline, I always treated my other crewmembers with the same respect that I expected to be treated with. A simple rule one would think. I certainly didn't flaunt how much I made.

Goose, you were dead on in your approach.

Fishfreighter
02-16-2010, 09:45 AM
Again, I agree with most posters here. If Goose has a problem with his Captain's communication skills, he SHOULD mention it as a debrief item. At least until he gets to this comment:

....to which I replied he was working on his bonus 5 at our (FOs) expense.

....at which point, Goose's skills come into question. And, he never does address this point:

Why do you young studs think you're ENTITLED to anything?

Based on the title of the thread, I think Goose is more chapped about the fact that the mandatory retirement age rule changed and he got stuck in the right seat 5 years longer than the expected to. Guess what, Goose? It happened to all of us.

EVERYONE'S career stalled due to the rule change. We're all stuck in our relative positions. However, letting your envy and jealousy get you all spooled up isn't going to change the rule back anytime soon.

We all need to suck it up, grin and bear it. Enjoy what you have and thank God you're not the ex-ATA 737 Captain I had on my jumpseat who is now a Colgan reserve Saab Captain. Remember you're only one bad FAA physical from being grounded for good.

TTOCSMCC
02-16-2010, 09:54 AM
I am unfamiliar with the company specific issues being discussed here, but I want to comment...

1. Yes there are many captains that need a de-brief.
2. CRM is a two way street.
3. Seniority is one of the most important things that we have unions for. Yes the guy in the left seat is there mostly because of his hire date, but he earned it if for no other reason than by lasting as long as he has. And when upgrade happens it is a lot more than just switching seats and pay rates.

MeXC
02-16-2010, 11:32 AM
>>EVERYONE'S career stalled due to the rule change<<

Umm. Nope. Some had their careers given a NO2 boost.

Fishfreighter
02-16-2010, 11:34 AM
Nope. Some had their careers given a NO2 boost.

Guess what? YOU'RE getting an extra 5 years of earning potential, too. Or did you forget about that?

Goose17
02-16-2010, 11:36 AM
Looks like I missed a bunch of discussion... I jumpseated home, slept and went straight to my son's spelling B.

I'll give a little more info;

I have flown with many guys who discuss and show pictures of mansions, yachts, planes, etc.... that's awesome! I think it is great that they have been able to succeed in life and buy such nice toys. No jealousy - just admiration.

Now, the age 65 deal... there were obviously big winners and big losers in the retirement age change. It's done now and there is nothing we can do about it.

4a2b... it has reduced the pay for many - myself included. This is not uniformly done. Many guys are flying just their schedule, others are not. Some guys have flown all the makeup, makeup sick, VLT, DRF they can get their hands on - others are not.

What do you get when you start stacking these together... you get haves and have nots - people winning in the system and others not so lucky.

On a side note, I teach martial arts. I try to instill in my students to be humble in victory. If you enter a sparring match and totally dominate, good for you - just don't rub your opponents nose in it. Be gracious and respectful.

How does that apply here. I felt like I was getting my nose rubbed in it throughout the flight. Can I handle it? Yes. Could he use a little better tact? Yes, in my opinion and that's why I mention something.

Goose17

MaydayMark
02-16-2010, 11:37 AM
Guess what? YOU'RE getting an extra 5 years of earning potential, too. Or did you forget about that?


Said like a true blue over-60 Capt. sticking around at the junior guys expense ... congrats!

PS ... I don't want an "extra 5 years earning potential" and I hope guys like you don't convince the union/company that it should be required

Busboy
02-16-2010, 11:38 AM
Guess what? YOU'RE getting an extra 5 years of earning potential, too. Or did you forget about that?

Oh come on!!! YOU LIE!!! Not everyone is going to get an extra 5 years of Capt pay!!

Some of our guys were already over 60, working the panel, when the rule changed...They didn't get a full extra 5 years of Capt's pay!!! :rolleyes:





Please note the ":rolleyes:"

MD11HOG
02-16-2010, 12:06 PM
[QUOTE=Fishfreighter;764524]
" However, letting your envy and jealousy get you all spooled up isn't going to change the rule back anytime soon.

We all need to suck it up, grin and bear it. "

You are confusing envy and jealousy with pity and anger. These guys sat around for 10 years without a pay rate raise because they were too stupid to work together and just looked out for themselves. That's all they are doing now. I'm not going to grin and bear it. I'm going to make observations, point out facts and wish I could be as tactful as Goose17.
Speaking of being envious, I transited through Paris at night and walked into the ops rooms. It looked and felt like an old folks home and I relayed that observation to my captain. He warned me about my opinion and I told him " What are you worried about, they can't hear anyway." I guess I was very envious of spending my twilight years hub turning.:D

Fishfreighter
02-16-2010, 12:16 PM
Mark,

You can quit anytime you want.

Gunter
02-16-2010, 01:08 PM
Guess what? YOU'RE getting an extra 5 years of earning potential, too. Or did you forget about that?


You've got to be kidding me that you're floating that BS.

Hey, thanks for the potential. But what about the time value of money? Too much was lost and the 'potential' at the end can't possibly make up for it.

JustUnderPar
02-16-2010, 01:11 PM
This guy being over 60 has nothing to do with it. Makes it sting a little more perhaps to the junior folks, but look at it this way.

You had a bad day flying with this DB! Sounds like a real sweetheart! He is an ********* and will always be one!! That is something that he cannot change.:) He has to live with it every time he looks in the mirror.

MaydayMark
02-16-2010, 01:19 PM
Mark,

You can quit anytime you want.


Very grown up answer :eek: ... why not, "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah?" or some remark about my mother?

767pilot
02-16-2010, 01:28 PM
during 4a2b, most guys are not flying extra - mself included.

If you don't mind a question from an outsider.... 4a2b from what I understand is the forced lower guarantees that you guys have. Why not fly extra if you want to make your old paycheck numbers? It's not like you have anyone on furlough or agreed to fly lower amounts.

767pilot
02-16-2010, 01:32 PM
Last time I checked a captain, in the USA anyway, is a person who just got hired before you. Takes the same checkride etc.


Yea, all that stuff about signing for the airplane and taking responsibility for the whole show really is smoke and mirrors.

Getting hired first gets one the opportunity to move from right to left, but there are a few more differences to the job than your statement would lead one to believe.

FDXLAG
02-16-2010, 01:46 PM
If you don't mind a question from an outsider.... 4a2b from what I understand is the forced lower guarantees that you guys have. Why not fly extra if you want to make your old paycheck numbers? It's not like you have anyone on furlough or agreed to fly lower amounts.

We have lower guarantees because the company is hiding trips from the bid pack and have reduced the number of reserves and Stby. They are forcing more Lines with fewer trips on them and counting on hungry pilots to pick up the slack.

Some of us choose not to help the company with their plan others choose to help the company play games.

Some Pilots are making out quite well during 4A2b.

TTOCSMCC
02-16-2010, 02:11 PM
Yea, all that stuff about signing for the airplane and taking responsibility for the whole show really is smoke and mirrors.

Getting hired first gets one the opportunity to move from right to left, but there are a few more differences to the job than your statement would lead one to believe.

This is the point I was trying to make.
It is more than just passing the same check ride from the left seat.

767pilot
02-16-2010, 02:22 PM
We have lower guarantees because the company is hiding trips from the bid pack and have reduced the number of reserves and Stby. They are forcing more Lines with fewer trips on them and counting on hungry pilots to pick up the slack.

If they did it the opposite way...cranked up the sodomizer and stuffed the lines full like UPS, wouldn't you find yourselves with extra pilots (like UPS)? I understand that what was forced on you was not of your chosing, but it seems similar to what we volunteered for. As soon as that option went away the furlough notices went out.

Freightpuppy
02-16-2010, 03:13 PM
I used to think that...then I flew with a Tiger Captain who was calling skds to see if there was anything else he could do, i.e. get his trip extended for big, big $$. They aren't immune to the dumbassedness.

Oh my....that is pathetic.

Freightpuppy
02-16-2010, 03:18 PM
EVERYONE'S career stalled due to the rule change. We're all stuck in our relative positions.

Not hardly. If you were a captain (or 60-61 yr old FE) and 55+, you got the golden ticket. A few got a windfall at the expense of many.

MeXC
02-16-2010, 03:19 PM
<<Guess what? YOU'RE getting an extra 5 years of earning potential, too. Or did you forget about that?>>

Yeah, I pretty much forgot about that. Thanks for pointing it out!
This really isn't worth getting into. If you believe that junior guys are just as well off as those already at the top of the list when this ****e sandwich was served then I simply won't waste my time. You're either being willfully ignorant of the situation, for what reason I can only imagine, or are incapable of understanding simple economics.

Zapata
02-16-2010, 03:19 PM
How about putting in the airline next time? ......no indications until page 2. Remember, this is not a FDX only forum.

Anyway, this thread was already pointless.

The Walrus
02-16-2010, 03:47 PM
How about putting in the airline next time? ......no indications until page 2. Remember, this is not a FDX only forum.

Anyway, this thread was already pointless.

Personally,
I think this has been a very interesting thread, but my name isn't shoe.:cool:

DiamondZ
02-16-2010, 04:24 PM
How about putting in the airline next time? ......no indications until page 2. Remember, this is not a FDX only forum.

Anyway, this thread was already pointless.

It was greatly enriched with this comment from the Airline Tag Police :rolleyes:

FDXLAG
02-16-2010, 04:51 PM
The funny part is I would think this topic would apply to other Airlines. Guess at the Zappata Air the Captains can't afford to brag about their 2nd Homes.

FDXLAG
02-16-2010, 04:56 PM
If they did it the opposite way...cranked up the sodomizer and stuffed the lines full like UPS, wouldn't you find yourselves with extra pilots (like UPS)? I understand that what was forced on you was not of your chosing, but it seems similar to what we volunteered for. As soon as that option went away the furlough notices went out.

Plenty of dudes over here think we can help the overmanning problem by flying extra too. ;) The problem is the reserves are manned at the lowest level FDX has ever manned them. Maybe if we pick up all the extra time they can go lower.:eek:

Lippy
02-16-2010, 05:11 PM
Goose, Goose, Goose.

Debrief inputs are always limited to one of three statements.

1. You're amazing.

2. Nice hat.

3. Meet you downstairs.

767pilot
02-16-2010, 05:47 PM
Plenty of dudes over here think we can help the overmanning problem by flying extra too. ;) The problem is the reserves are manned at the lowest level FDX has ever manned them. Maybe if we pick up all the extra time they can go lower.:eek:

Only two ways to fix the problem of block hours being down. Divide the flying across more pilots (lower time lines) or lower the head count. UPS decided on the latter :(

FDXLAG
02-16-2010, 06:13 PM
Only two ways to fix the problem of block hours being down. Divide the flying across more pilots (lower time lines) or lower the head count. UPS decided on the latter :(

You are assuming block hours are down over here.

767pilot
02-16-2010, 06:31 PM
are you saying that they aren't?

767pilot
02-16-2010, 06:34 PM
It is more than just passing the same check ride from the left seat.

We just had 20 some captains get letters of investigation from the FAA for flying with improper maintenance deferrals (same airplane). Come to think of it, I don't think 1 FO got a letter. Must be something more than date of hire making a captain different than an FO

Eck4Life
02-16-2010, 07:02 PM
Sirs:
Please refer to FCIF 10-0017 (Admin). Next, google H.R. 4343 - Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act. If you have WORD, reference 'senile dementia' and 'stupid'. I think those will cover most issues here.
As a Captain, I need to weigh many factors when I sign for the jet, not the least of which is knowing the crew is all headed in the same direction.
If a crew member decides he's going to 'sell back' sick hours when he retires, he must FIRST have over 686 hours in his bank. You do the math, but at left seat pay and in most cases, that's a HUGE give back for little gain. And, I believe MUS is a PDO trip - so unless he's got a HUGE sick bank, he's killing himself. Perhaps the Captain would have been better served with an accounting lesson, some basic math skills, and a review of his 401K plan. I know there are F/Os out there doing infinitely better than me on that.
Next, HR 4343 made a HUGE change that has caused much consternation. The rules changed in the beginning, middle, or end of the game - depending on where you happened to be. I'll have 14 years at FDX when I turn 60, and regardless of my post-60 plan, this was a bonus for me if I elect. If we have a good negotiating committee with a strong crew force, retaining the age 60 retirement without penalty should be OUR focus. MEC - TAKE NOTE!
I put the vocabulary lesson in for my benefit, and to keep this 'lite'. We had a Captain in ANC that opted at 23+ years to bid to the panel of the -10 so 'she'd' have a 25 year retirement. She went from W/B Captain's pay to S/O pay, which some claimed would be less than her retirement pay. I didn't do the math, but what I do know, her vacation buy-back was at S/O pay. Her sick-bank buy-back would have been at S/O pay. *** was she thinking?
So - I appreciate the tactfulness of being brought up to speed on a LOT of things, including financial management. At my seniority, I've been blessed with 59-62 CH hour months most of the time 4.A.2.b. has been in affect (one 39 CH month by mistake). There are some F/Os right now that can protect carry-over and are doing better than others, but they also gave up the left seat. Should I counsel them on their 4.A.2.b. behavior? MEC/NC - TAKE NOTE. Scheduling might need re-worked in our next CBA.
Here are some rules I was taught when I plumb'd on the jurassic jet:
1. S/Os DO NOT TIP!!!
2. Captain's on DRF pay all the limo tips (no exceptions cheap a$$e$)!
3. Captain's on DRF buy the first round, even if there's not a second round
4. Unless mutually asked, don't discuss
a. Ex spouses (women, ED was a medical problem back then)
b. Religion (I happened to own a 10 speed, but no, I'm not)
c. AMWAY - my wife has used it - I'm not buying any
d. PAY - our calendars are open, pay rates are in the CBA
5. Things open for discussion
a. How to dispose of neon light-bulbs made in China (not legal to make them in the US) because of the HAZ (mercury I think) in them.
b. How to dispose of a Toyota PRIUS (batteries are highly toxic and the car is a piece of crap)
c. FDX's contribution to JGR and the #11 NASCAR Team during 4.A.2.b. (that's Joe Gibbs Racing for the non-race enthusiasts)
d. FDX's contribution to the PGA's FedEx Cup during 4.A.2.b. (that's professional golf and T***r W**ds for the non-golfers)
e. FDX's contribution to Formula 1 Racing during 4.A.2.b. (that's the number 1 racing sport in the world, except for maybe NASCAR).
f. Why FedEx doesn't have an NHRA team when DHL and UPS do (that's National Hot Rod Association (dragsters and funny cars)). Talk about the world on time - 1,000 feet in 4 seconds!!!
g. Bonneville Salt Flats racing - we've got a former MD-11 Captain that designed a car that holds a land speed record there.
h. R**s B***z - he's retired and we'll all get a good laugh

Folks, in ANC we've been fighting the disputed pairing battle, questioning the hotel standby plan with MEM crews, and the non-existent optimizer. There are worse things out there, but congrats to GOOSE for compartmentalizing and waiting until the end of the trip for the discussion. Just maybe that's what CRM is all about.
Very Respectfully,
Nakazawa


Sir, may I tip my hat to you. Quite possibly the perfect post.

I'm an outsider in your debate as I am a pax hauler, but you seem to be an individual for whom I could happily pull gear for years. You seem to have the perfect balance of professionalism, comedic talent, and outside interests.

golfandfly
02-16-2010, 07:17 PM
767,

OK, you are my hero. I certainly don't have the ability to read a maintenance log. Jeez, give me a break. Do you think the FOs at FDX or UPS haven't had the responsibility to be in command? Airline Captains get their positions based on date of hire. There is greater responsiblity and greater pay. If someone doesn't have the ability to be a captain they shouldn't be working at either place.

TTOCSMCC
02-16-2010, 07:36 PM
767,

OK, you are my hero. I certainly don't have the ability to read a maintenance log. Jeez, give me a break. Do you think the FOs at FDX or UPS haven't had the responsibility to be in command? Airline Captains get their positions based on date of hire. There is greater responsiblity and greater pay. If someone doesn't have the ability to be a captain they shouldn't be working at either place.

No airline should hire a pilot that cannot be expected to pass upgrade when the opportunity happens, nor should they hire anyone that cannot deal with the responsibilities of the left seat.

The point is not that any FO cannot cut it as captain, but that captains are paid more because of the greater responsibility of the job. Also captains are awarded their positions based on date of hire. They keep them and last through the years by successfully handling the responsibility.

And it sure does help when you have the support of a great FO!

By the way I have no doubt that at UPS and Fedex you don't even get in the door without having a proven record of handling responsibility.

Nitefrater
02-16-2010, 08:20 PM
767,

If someone doesn't have the ability to be a captain they shouldn't be working at either place.

And yet... as you and I both know... they do.

livindadream
02-16-2010, 09:20 PM
As I read through this entire post, my stomach is turning and I may have even thrown up in my mouth....

I have turned down 2 draft trips in the last week.... I am a 72FO. One of these trips was worth over 55 hours after draft with INT Override and per diem. The 2nd was about 50 hours pay after draft for hotel standby.... I could have made nearly a months credit in one week...

I turned both down because it's the right thing to do right now. That's over $7200 that I could really use to make up for the credit hour reduction that I have felt over the last year... Then, to hear about oblivious tools like Gooses CPT brag about how they are taking advantage of the rest of the crew force to pad their lifestyle makes me sick.

I commend Goose for being much more tactful than I would have been. While I am quite capable of compartmentalizing, once the trip was over, I would have expressed myself much differently and would not have used the formality of a debrief to do so....

MD11Fr8Dog
02-16-2010, 10:42 PM
are you saying that they aren't?

Well let's look at the math! Here's a comparison, from our Scheduling Committee, between ANC from May '07 versus May '09:

http://home.offroad.com/~md11fr8dog/SchedUpdate122109.jpg

Toccata
02-17-2010, 01:57 AM
After reading eight pages of this, my first thought is; whatever happened to the Captains who showed off the pictures of their airplane.....with their latest girlfriend draped over it with some clothing missing? I never had any real issue with that.

Thinking about some of those pics, I can't remember what my second thought was going to be......

Zapata
02-17-2010, 03:40 AM
Personally,
I think this has been a very interesting thread, but my name isn't shoe.:cool:

Not the shoe, but Emiliano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata)! ;)

say that again
02-17-2010, 04:59 AM
So, my last flight started out normally… Met at the folder - chatting, getting to know each other a bit. The captain says he lives in MEM, but starts talking about his vacation home in FL on the Gulf. I told him it sounded nice. He then goes on to say he was on a make-up sick trip to keep his sick bank maxed out so the company will keep sending him a big bonus check into his retirement account. Hmmmm - I say. He then tells me he should start receiving his Reserves retirement any day. This prompts me to ask him how old he was to which he informs me he is over 60 now.

So, after the flight I said I have a debrief item. Not on the flight itself, but more on and etiquette level. I said most FOs are not too happy about the age 65 deal - myself included. Also, during 4a2b, most guys are not flying extra - mself included. So, on future flights I wouldn't be volunteering info about extra flying, bonus retirement checks, flying past 60, etc.

His response was he was working on his high 5, to which I replied he was working on his bonus 5 at our (FOs) expense.

Goose17
Well if it's any consolation to you, we'll more than likely be dead before you too. There, are you happy now?

Freightpuppy
02-17-2010, 05:21 AM
I turned both down because it's the right thing to do right now. That's over $7200 that I could really use to make up for the credit hour reduction that I have felt over the last year... Then, to hear about oblivious tools like Gooses CPT brag about how they are taking advantage of the rest of the crew force to pad their lifestyle makes me sick.



Unfortunately, this concept does not factor into some of these people's decision making. It's a sad but growing epidemic these days.

FDXLAG
02-17-2010, 05:31 AM
Well if it's any consolation to you, we'll more than likely be dead before you too. There, are you happy now?

As I say to my wife after half a day at the mall. No hurry but I'll be waiting in the car. ;)

Unknown Rider
02-17-2010, 05:33 AM
As I read through this entire post, my stomach is turning and I may have even thrown up in my mouth....

I have turned down 2 draft trips in the last week.... I am a 72FO. One of these trips was worth over 55 hours after draft with INT Override and per diem. The 2nd was about 50 hours pay after draft for hotel standby.... I could have made nearly a months credit in one week...

I turned both down because it's the right thing to do right now. That's over $7200 that I could really use to make up for the credit hour reduction that I have felt over the last year... Then, to hear about oblivious tools like Gooses CPT brag about how they are taking advantage of the rest of the crew force to pad their lifestyle makes me sick.

I commend Goose for being much more tactful than I would have been. While I am quite capable of compartmentalizing, once the trip was over, I would have expressed myself much differently and would not have used the formality of a debrief to do so....

Do you have the pairing numbers?

say that again
02-17-2010, 06:16 AM
As I say to my wife after half a day at the mall. No hurry but I'll be waiting in the car. ;)
Interesting, you've done a good job demonstrating your true colors.

FDXLAG
02-17-2010, 06:27 AM
Interesting, you've done a good job demonstrating your true colors.

Did I hurt the somwones feelings wit my joke, I'm sorwry.

My bad, I did not know you were serious with this post.

Well if it's any consolation to you, we'll more than likely be dead before you too. There, are you happy now?

Interesting, I don't hide my colors do you? I have said a hundred times age 65 was inevitable. ALPA's handling of it was not. The age 60 change should have been phased in over 10 years so as to prevent any windfall (and retro would not have been a factor) or punishment to any age group. And, I might add, it would have prevented the current UPS furlough letters and 4A2b at Fedex.

filejw
02-17-2010, 07:13 AM
First any pilot no matter what the age just just plan rude bragging about has wealth .Just shows some kind of insecurity. I hope you guys are working on better contract language, i cant believe the reduction in hrs you guys talk about is still going on.

JetJocF14
02-17-2010, 07:19 AM
Believe it..........

drftddgr
02-17-2010, 07:43 AM
As I read through this entire post, my stomach is turning and I may have even thrown up in my mouth....

I have turned down 2 draft trips in the last week.... I am a 72FO. One of these trips was worth over 55 hours after draft with INT Override and per diem. The 2nd was about 50 hours pay after draft for hotel standby.... I could have made nearly a months credit in one week...

I turned both down because it's the right thing to do right now. That's over $7200 that I could really use to make up for the credit hour reduction that I have felt over the last year... Then, to hear about oblivious tools like Gooses CPT brag about how they are taking advantage of the rest of the crew force to pad their lifestyle makes me sick.

I commend Goose for being much more tactful than I would have been.
While I am quite capable of compartmentalizing, once the trip was over, I would have expressed myself much differently and would not have used the formality of a debrief to do so....

Livin,

Thanks for doin the right thing. I too am a 72 fo and have not accepted drf since 4a2b. but mainly i wanted to say....nice avatar!!!

kronan
02-17-2010, 11:12 AM
Livin,
take the draft then drop the next week of regular pay.

IMO, would be your choice to work the same X days FedEx had you working or just shoot for pay parity and drop 7 days for 5 days of draft.

FDXLAG
02-17-2010, 11:20 AM
Livin,
take the draft then drop the next week of regular pay.

IMO, would be your choice to work the same X days FedEx had you working or just shoot for pay parity and drop 7 days for 5 days of draft.


While I am trying not to stir up the attack dogs again; the draft fairie does not squat and say LET THIS TRIP BE DRAFT. The trip is draft because someone in management wanted a good deal or the company does not have the reserves to cover it. Some might think that picking up the draft trip is helping the company get by with their reduced reserve manning model. Others obviously do not. Let your conscience be your guide.

42GO
02-17-2010, 11:57 AM
This elicited the EXACT response I thought it would.....First the SAME people who always trash anyone here who is over 10 years with the company came in to vent their frustrations with all aspects of anyone senior to them...
Second, as far as I know flying a m/u sick doesn't go in his paycheck it is a flown trip to make up any sick leave he took.....this isn't money in his pocket on the 30th, and third because someone talks about what he has been doing doesn't throw anything in another crewmembers face unless he is looking for an excuse to *****......
I think all of these were clearly exposed in this 9 page rant by the same folks who do the same thing about anything or anyone senior......
Shall we invoke socialism???? then you would all be happy...

I have proved my point.

FDXLAG
02-17-2010, 12:04 PM
This elicited the EXACT response I thought it would.....First the SAME people who always trash anyone here who is over 10 years with the company came in to vent their frustrations with all aspects of anyone senior to them...
Second, as far as I know flying a m/u sick doesn't go in his paycheck it is a flown trip to make up any sick leave he took.....this isn't money in his pocket on the 30th, and third because someone talks about what he has been doing doesn't throw anything in another crewmembers face unless he is looking for an excuse to *****......
I think all of these were clearly exposed in this 9 page rant by the same folks who do the same thing about anything or anyone senior......
Shall we invoke socialism???? then you would all be happy...

I have proved my point.

Is the guy better off financially because he flew the trip?

I have proved my point and all other points from here until next Tuesday. So noone else can prove any points till Wednesday.

MEMFO4Ever
02-17-2010, 12:20 PM
This elicited the EXACT response I thought it would.....First the SAME people who always trash anyone here who is over 10 years with the company came in to vent their frustrations with all aspects of anyone senior to them...
Second, as far as I know flying a m/u sick doesn't go in his paycheck it is a flown trip to make up any sick leave he took.....this isn't money in his pocket on the 30th, and third because someone talks about what he has been doing doesn't throw anything in another crewmembers face unless he is looking for an excuse to *****......
I think all of these were clearly exposed in this 9 page rant by the same folks who do the same thing about anything or anyone senior......
Shall we invoke socialism???? then you would all be happy...

I have proved my point.

Thanks Captain sir. Your sanctimony will make you an excellent check airman or manager. Must be an MD11 thing.

Feel free to let the door hit you on the way out.

Deuce130
02-17-2010, 12:26 PM
This elicited the EXACT response I thought it would.....First the SAME people who always trash anyone here who is over 10 years with the company came in to vent their frustrations with all aspects of anyone senior to them...
Second, as far as I know flying a m/u sick doesn't go in his paycheck it is a flown trip to make up any sick leave he took.....this isn't money in his pocket on the 30th, and third because someone talks about what he has been doing doesn't throw anything in another crewmembers face unless he is looking for an excuse to *****......
I think all of these were clearly exposed in this 9 page rant by the same folks who do the same thing about anything or anyone senior......
Shall we invoke socialism???? then you would all be happy...

I have proved my point.

You just set up straw men and then knocked them down. You didn't address anything. Seniority was never the issue, 10 years on property was not the issue, sick M/U was not the issue. He wasn't merely talking about what he was doing, either. Feel free to come back when you'd like to talk about the things the OP ACTUALLY brought up.

OffRoad5150
02-17-2010, 12:50 PM
Did this Captain embarrass himself by bragging about how much money he's making, yes. Talk about a "chip" on his shoulder.

I have proven my point.

The Walrus
02-17-2010, 01:30 PM
Did this Captain make embarrass himself by bragging about how much money he's making, yes. Talk about a "chip" on his shoulder.

I have proven my point.

How do you make embarrass?:confused:

Gunter
02-17-2010, 01:54 PM
How do you make embarrass?:confused:

take one part donkey and add two parts diarrhea of the mouth.

The Walrus
02-17-2010, 02:12 PM
take one part donkey and add two parts diarrhea of the mouth.
Oh, I think I just made embarrass in my mouth.:eek:

AFW_MD11
02-17-2010, 02:21 PM
Ummm.....hey LAG.....I know its not next Wednesday yet....but I'd like to prove a point too (if I may)

what the BLEEP is this 42GO guy talkin' 'bout? (other than he is 61 and has 4 more years to go - 42GO - until he's forced to retire) - but I digress...

here's my point (and, I believe, the original poster to this thread's as well):

Discretion (aka - judgment, SA, common courtesy, etc.) - use some (see definition below) - that's all - it's that simple...

Main Entry: dis·cre·tion
Pronunciation: \dis-ˈkre-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

1 : the quality of being discreet : circumspection; especially : cautious reserve in speech
2 : ability to make responsible decisions
3 a : individual choice or judgment <left the decision to his discretion> b : power of free decision or latitude of choice within certain legal bounds <reached the age of discretion>
4 : the result of separating or distinguishing

Jetjok
02-17-2010, 02:37 PM
AFW MD11,

I fully agree with your comments. This thread really had nothing at all to do with an over 60 Captain, who said some really insensitive stuff. It had to do entirely with a Captain, who happened to be 60, saying some really insensitive stuff, to the other crewmember(s).

What is quite interesting (to me anyway) is how guys here have morphed this thread from one of an issue of both CRM as well as insensitivity, to one of guys, again, telling other guys what they should and should not be doing, based on their own bias. If someone wants to fly make-up-sick (for whatever reason), according to the contract, he's allowed to. It really doesn't matter if he's padding his sick bank, or trying to add monies to his retirement fund. After all, he lost those credit hours somewhere along the line, so isn't he entitled (g_d, I hate that word) to make them up. Personally, I never, never flew make-up-sick, but again, that's a personal decision.

JJ

FDXLAG
02-17-2010, 02:41 PM
I am sorry you were a little too circumspect. You will have to be a little more specific here. What should I have been discrete about? If you don't want to say it out loud just tell me the number of the post you objected too.

There is no way you could have objected to my saying that a trip usually becomes a Draft trip because the company has a lack of reserves.

I will go on the ASSumption that you are suggesting I should not mention that make up sick is only marginally different from regular make up if you have 686 hours in your make up bank. Because if you read the first post in this thread this statement is a little *deceitful: "Second, as far as I know flying a m/u sick doesn't go in his paycheck it is a flown trip to make up any sick leave he took.....this isn't money in his pocket on the 30th"

Because I imagine it a lot of ways 6 hours in your retirement account is more money in your pocket than 6 hours in todays paycheck. Especially for a WB Capt.


Adj.1.deceitful - intended to deceive; "deceitful advertising"; "fallacious testimony"; "smooth, shining, and deceitful as thin ice" - S.T.Coleridge; "a fraudulent scheme to escape paying taxes" fraudulent (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fraudulent), fallacious (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fallacious)
dishonest (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dishonest), dishonorable (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dishonorable) - deceptive or fraudulent; disposed to cheat or defraud or deceive
2.http://img.tfd.com/wn/67/17EA2E-deceitful.gifdeceitful - marked by deliberate deceptiveness especially by pretending one set of feelings and acting under the influence of another; "she was a deceitful scheming little thing"- Israel Zangwill; "a double-dealing double agent"; "a double-faced infernal traitor and schemer"- W.M.Thackeray double-dealing (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double-dealing), double-tongued (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double-tongued), duplicitous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/duplicitous), two-faced (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/two-faced), ambidextrous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ambidextrous), Janus-faced (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Janus-faced), double-faced (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double-faced)
dishonest (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dishonest), dishonorable (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dishonorable) - deceptive or fraudulent; disposed to cheat or defraud or deceive

AFW_MD11
02-17-2010, 03:09 PM
LAG....I didn't mean YOU, I meant the original captain who got debriefed (and/or everyone/anyone who feels the need to do what he did.)

see how this written communication never quite gets the correct point across?

sorry.

(unless your reply wasn't directed to me - since you didn't say who "you" was that you're writing to?? if not me, then never mind...)

OffRoad5150
02-17-2010, 03:18 PM
I "make embarrass" by mixing one too many beers with a rum and coke....and not checking what I type before hitting enter! ;)

"All your base are belong to us"...even better!

The Walrus
02-17-2010, 03:27 PM
"All your base are belong to us"...even better!

You said the magic words, so you are excused.:cool:

Unknown Rider
02-17-2010, 03:36 PM
AFW MD11,

I fully agree with your comments. This thread really had nothing at all to do with an over 60 Captain, who said some really insensitive stuff. It had to do entirely with a Captain, who happened to be 60, saying some really insensitive stuff, to the other crewmember(s).

What is quite interesting (to me anyway) is how guys here have morphed this thread from one of an issue of both CRM as well as insensitivity, to one of guys, again, telling other guys what they should and should not be doing, based on their own bias. If someone wants to fly make-up-sick (for whatever reason), according to the contract, he's allowed to. It really doesn't matter if he's padding his sick bank, or trying to add monies to his retirement fund. After all, he lost those credit hours somewhere along the line, so isn't he entitled (g_d, I hate that word) to make them up. Personally, I never, never flew make-up-sick, but again, that's a personal decision.

JJ


Good post JJ. You're right, everyone seems to have an opinion about what someone else should be doing right now because of 4a2b. But they should keep in mind that's all they are, opinions. Take them too far and all they do is divide the crew force which ultimately will benefit the company come contract time.

FDXLAG
02-17-2010, 03:52 PM
LAG....I didn't mean YOU, I meant the original captain who got debriefed (and/or everyone/anyone who feels the need to do what he did.)

see how this written communication never quite gets the correct point across?

sorry.

(unless your reply wasn't directed to me - since you didn't say who "you" was that you're writing to?? if not me, then never mind...)

My bad, saw the 1st lag and ASSumed the worst. um good post.:)

PS I think JJ thought you were slamming me too.

Deuce130
02-17-2010, 04:16 PM
Good post JJ. You're right, everyone seems to have an opinion about what someone else should be doing right now because of 4a2b. But they should keep in mind that's all they are, opinions. Take them too far and all they do is divide the crew force which ultimately will benefit the company come contract time.

Just b/c some things are permissible by the contract doesn't mean they are beneficial. People are allowed to do all kinds of things they shouldn't do. And if you, JJ, me, or anyone else is incapable of recognizing the right and wrong things to do, then we are going to be in sad shape going into contract negotiations.

Unknown Rider
02-17-2010, 04:41 PM
Just b/c some things are permissible by the contract doesn't mean they are beneficial. People are allowed to do all kinds of things they shouldn't do. And if you, JJ, me, or anyone else is incapable of recognizing the right and wrong things to do, then we are going to be in sad shape going into contract negotiations.

That's not what I said. What I said is everyone has their own opinion about what they and others should do. Some think everyone should bypass draft trips and not do makeup. Others think everyone should check-in at the last second and take the scheduled deadhead and hopefully overload the system that way. It's still just everyone's opinion. Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but don't get so angry when someone disagrees that it creates a wedge between guys in the crewforce. That simply works to the company's advantage. Again, just MY opinion.

Deuce130
02-17-2010, 06:03 PM
That's not what I said. What I said is everyone has their own opinion about what they and others should do. Some think everyone should bypass draft trips and not do makeup. Others think everyone should check-in at the last second and take the scheduled deadhead and hopefully overload the system that way. It's still just everyone's opinion. Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but don't get so angry when someone disagrees that it creates a wedge between guys in the crewforce. That simply works to the company's advantage. Again, just MY opinion.

Yes, everyone has opinions. All of the examples you cited in this post are what I personally would consider positive actions we could do to help ourselves out. I would much rather disagree with you, and everyone else for that matter, on what are the best ways we could hasten our exit from 4a2b. I, for one, would never get angry at someone who is actively trying to improve our position. I DO, however, get a little angry when people do the work of two pilots, abuse carryover, suck up draft, or whatever else they can do to aid the company in cutting our hours. My reaction is not the wedge, their actions are the wedge.

Unknown Rider
02-17-2010, 06:27 PM
Yes, everyone has opinions. All of the examples you cited in this post are what I personally would consider positive actions we could do to help ourselves out. I would much rather disagree with you, and everyone else for that matter, on what are the best ways we could hasten our exit from 4a2b. I, for one, would never get angry at someone who is actively trying to improve our position. I DO, however, get a little angry when people do the work of two pilots, abuse carryover, suck up draft, or whatever else they can do to aid the company in cutting our hours. My reaction is not the wedge, their actions are the wedge.

I guess it's a difference of attitude. I think when dealing with peers who you have no control over their actions, that it's best to encourage the actions you desire rather than pummel those whose actions you despise. Yanking on a mule's harness sometimes just makes him dig in his heels deeper.

Daniel Larusso
02-17-2010, 07:44 PM
I have proved my point.

You sure proved it to me.

iarapilot
02-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Goose, You are the one that needs to be debriefed. If it is wrong to make up sick leave, for whatever reason, you guys, meaning those less than 60, need to get a life.

I hope this Captain finds out who you are and takes action. This type animosity can't exist in our cockpits. You are the problem.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iarapilot
02-17-2010, 10:21 PM
Great, now we have a UPS Captain zeroing in on our "Unity" based on 15 FedEx pilots rants.

Come on man, aren't the UPS threads very interesting?;)

But, I think he is correct concerning our unity!

AirHead328
02-18-2010, 04:10 AM
Yanking on a mule's harness sometimes just makes him dig in his heels deeper.

How does putting your heel in the ass do?

FearlessFreep
02-18-2010, 08:08 AM
This thread is absolutely hilarious! More time, effort and emotion wasted on less than five minutes of conversation. The world should grind to a halt because some crewmember has had his delicate sensitivities bruised.

So one individual Captain said something construed as insensitive. Boohoo, the poor little FO had to listen to something he didn't want to hear - I mean after all the world isn't revolving around him, all the "old folks" aren't kissing his socialistic arse black & blue because he's so wonderful! After all he's OWED everything in his life. Grow up!

Just how many furloughs and adversity do you think those "old guys" have had to endure? They paid their dues, but yet you all act like they should all be paying for all the young people that are just sitting there warming the seat. You question their "unity" but yet do many of you realize that a lot of those "old guys" either set up or supported those unions long before you arrived.

When all you "young guys" get to 60 your going to be thankful that you will have the opportunity to work those extra 5 years to make up for all the governmental or "life" (divorces, bad investments, etc.) taxes that you will have to pay.

The common thread that always is bantered about is how the senior people have to forfeit all they have earned for the young people. Always spouting off how "selfish" the senior people are but yet you don't see how selfish you all are when you think that the old codgers owe you anything!

Be happy for what you do have. Your working at Purple, with the best work rules, best pay in aviation, yet you all complain like your cleaning sewers for a living.

Sorry guys, but really there are bigger & better things to converse about.

Oh, I am not in the over 60 group.

I am sure this will illicit some angry responses. I really don't care

Busboy
02-18-2010, 08:36 AM
This thread is absolutely hilarious! More time, effort and emotion wasted on less than five minutes of conversation. The world should grind to a halt...

BREAKING NEWS...BREAKING NEWS...

Tiger is going to speak tomorrow.

OffRoad5150
02-18-2010, 08:45 AM
When all you "young guys" get to 60 your going to be thankful that you will have the opportunity to work those extra 5 years to make up for all the governmental or "life" (divorces, bad investments, etc.) taxes that you will have to pay.

I'm not young, angry or "thankful" for the opportunity to work another 5 years. You don't know what the heck you're talking about.

Deuce130
02-18-2010, 10:29 AM
Sorry guys, but really there are bigger & better things to converse about.



Ok...you first. What's on your mind?

MeXC
02-18-2010, 10:41 AM
Wow! Really? "Thankful" for an opportunity to work for 5 more years?
Golly, mister! Thanks!

Fishfreighter
02-18-2010, 11:01 AM
5 additional years at the top of the pay scale? I'll take it.

So will you, don't kid yourself.

FDXLAG
02-18-2010, 11:05 AM
Of course it only costs some of us 5 more years near the bottom of the payscale. Don't kid yourself.

Huck
02-18-2010, 11:07 AM
This fundamental mistake in reasoning has to be stopped. I hear it all the time, and it is patently wrong.

We will not get "five more years at the top of the pay scale." We got five more years in the seat we were warming in December 2007. Our last five years are the SAME five years we would have gotten between 55 and 60 before the rule change.

This is all water under under the bridge, but don't tee-tee on my leg and tell me it's raining......

Gunter
02-18-2010, 11:07 AM
5 additional years at the top of the pay scale? I'll take it.

So will you, don't kid yourself.

You just don't get it.

5 more years at the top payscale for you does not equal 5 more years for everyone else.

It just means 5 more years until upgrade with no extra time as CA.

Fishfreighter
02-18-2010, 11:10 AM
How many of us suffered under endless B-scales? Those were not of our doing, either. But we didn't go on webboards and point fingers at the A-scale guys.

Face it, Age 65 is a condition of employment, just like the B-scale was. If you don't like it, there's the door. Don't let it hit you on the way out.

You fly for FedEx, for crying out loud. I'd say your glass, which is twice as big as anyone else's, is half FULL not half empty. Do you even care how greedy and self-important you sound?

FDXLAG
02-18-2010, 11:15 AM
I am sure you accepted the B Scale like the class act you are. That is why it is gone because everyone accepted it. When your logic is flawed go on the attack.

Don't like this thread? It easy to ignore.

Fishfreighter
02-18-2010, 11:18 AM
When I got hired if you wanted the job, you accepted B-scale wages. Its called a "condition of employment."

You're free to quit FedEx anytime you want. There are plenty of furloughed pilots out there willing to take your place.

Grow up and quit whining.

FDXLAG
02-18-2010, 11:19 AM
And what you are missing is thanks to Age 60 I have had 13 months of B scale.

So what happened to your B Scale if all you old timers took it like a man?

Busboy
02-18-2010, 11:22 AM
What ever happened to the "Killer B's", anyway? Are they now the "A Killers"? As in "A" plan.

Yah, that's it...How come all the conspiracy theorists never picked up on that? The Killer-B's finally got their revenge on the old A-scale guys by agreeing to get rid of their pensions.:eek:

Fishfreighter
02-18-2010, 11:23 AM
Just post a copy of your FedEx resignation letter if you're so fed up. We'd all love to see that, but we won't hold our breath. Until then, just be happy they don't relocate the window heat and the pitot heat to the F/E panel so you'll still have a job.

FreightDawgyDog
02-18-2010, 11:44 AM
When I got hired if you wanted the job, you accepted B-scale wages. Its called a "condition of employment."

You're free to quit FedEx anytime you want. There are plenty of furloughed pilots out there willing to take your place.

Grow up and quit whining.

When you got hired the retirement Age was also 60. It was called a "condition of employment." Then when it was time to retire, the Greediest Generation had it changed so they could get more years at the top at the expense of every pilot junior to them, especially furloughed pilots. Instead of telling others to grow up and stop whining (words ignored by those fighting for the Age change) why don't you take your pension and retire?

To quote an over 60 FedEx flyer we all know.. If you have a pension waiting and are still flying (working until August for free essentially under 4a2b).."You're the problem!"

MEMFO4Ever
02-18-2010, 11:50 AM
Just post a copy of your FedEx resignation letter if you're so fed up. We'd all love to see that, but we won't hold our breath. Until then, just be happy they don't relocate the window heat and the pitot heat to the F/E panel so you'll still have a job.

Just so we are all clear. It is ok for anyone else in the corporation to squeeze profits to enhance everyone's individual bottom line, except for pilots. You are a piece of work and will be a great asset to 'us' during negotiations. Let me guess, you got yours?

Oh and BTW, age 60 was a "condition of employment" when I was hired, but the old guys did not like it so they got the other old guys on the hill to change the rules of the game after tipoff. Must be nice to be in the driver's seat.

Maybe you should be the next SCP since you are convinced that, in the words of Tracy Bonham, everything's fine.

hoya saxa
02-18-2010, 12:10 PM
Question: How do you know when someone's lost a debate on APC and is foundering helplessly without substance to contribute?

Answer: They whip out the ever-popular "if you don't like it you should just quit" line.

Hilarious. I think the apoplectic FishFreighter has used about 16 iterations of it now!:p

hoya

vagabond
02-18-2010, 12:17 PM
Mom Note:

Ok, that's it! This thread started out as about that annoying Captain (there are so many of them these days. :)) and it's morphed irretreivably into something else. So I'm going to close it and everyone take a cold shower or whatever.