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View Full Version : UPS Managers


weatherman
02-18-2010, 02:11 PM
ups managers are out in full force blaming the pending furlough on the over 60 ipa pilots. do not let these corporate wind bags distract you. let them know that the eb speaks for you and any further discussion will be considered harassment.

the rhetoric is about to reach an all time high and many of them will do or say anything because they are worried about what will happen to their jobs if the ipa doesn't cave to ups bullying.

ups managers are not your friends.

ups managers are not trying to help you.

ups managers will do and say anything and everything they are told because they are worried about themselves and themselves only.

ups managers are an illegal work force and the end is near for them.

trust no managers.

remain united with your ipa brothers.


Commando
02-18-2010, 02:16 PM
Sorry, But I agree with the scum bags. The Age 60 rule is 100% responsible for the potential Furlough.

We have over 250 guys who would be playing golf, instead there here sucking on the Tit. Even though most have been Captains since Day One. Over 20 years left seat. Very selfish. But they have a law that lets em do it.

weatherman
02-18-2010, 02:20 PM
don't be fooled commando.

ups was 100% in favor of changing the age 60 rule. it saves them many millions in pension payouts even though it will cost them initially.

ups would like to have their cake and eat it too.

the rule changed and our fellow ipa brothers have every legal right to be here.

ups managers do not. don't be fooled.


FrontSeat
02-18-2010, 02:21 PM
I never understood why so many of the IPA pilots are in love with managers. You would be surprised at how many eat dinner at each other's homes, socialize and plan recreation outings with each other. How many times have you heard an IPA pilot say " I am friends with this manager but he is a good guy" or " this guy is cool he would be an IPA pilot if he was not only offered a management position."

I saw it at a major airline as well, only with scabs. There is a strange dynamic that sets up in some crazy pilots' minds that actually has them bend over for a scab and be 100% accommodating.

I forgot what the name of this syndrome is.

Commando
02-18-2010, 02:29 PM
yes, some in ANC are very close to the ACP's there. And some are even big union/domicle reps. And some drive a van 6 hours with the ACP's to Fairbanks to save the day. ???????????

Sideshow Bob
02-18-2010, 02:29 PM
I never understood why so many of the IPA pilots are in love with managers. You would be surprised at how many eat dinner at each other's homes, socialize and plan recreation outings with each other. How many times have you heard an IPA pilot say " I am friends with this manager but he is a good guy" or " this guy is cool he would be an IPA pilot if he was not only offered a management position."

I saw it at a major airline as well, only with scabs. There is a strange dynamic that sets up in some crazy pilots' minds that actually has them bend over for a scab and be 100% accommodating.

I forgot what the name of this syndrome is.

It's the Stockholm Syndrome...

Weatherman is right...listen to and/or believe ANY of them at your peril, especially for the foreseeable future.

Back in the good old days when we had new hires, I used to liken managers to dogs.

A dog will wag his tail and act like he's your best friend. He may let you rub him behind the ears and buy him a drink, but get between him and his food at the wrong moment and even the best dog will bite you.

Plus, many have fleas, ticks and worms.

The Walrus
02-18-2010, 02:30 PM
I never understood why so many of the IPA pilots are in love with managers. You would be surprised at how many eat dinner at each other's homes, socialize and plan recreation outings with each other. How many times have you heard an IPA pilot say " I am friends with this manager but he is a good guy" or " this guy is cool he would be an IPA pilot if he was not only offered a management position."

I saw it at a major airline as well, only with scabs. There is a strange dynamic that sets up in some crazy pilots' minds that actually has them bend over for a scab and be 100% accommodating.

I forgot what the name of this syndrome is.

The Stockholm Syndrome

We at Fedex are screwed. Our only chance is is if you get it right. Good Luck!

navigatro
02-18-2010, 02:44 PM
Sorry, But I agree with the scum bags. The Age 60 rule is 100% responsible for the potential Furlough. .

I would say that the furlough is:

1/3 due to age 65,
1/3 due to economy
1/3 due to corporate greed

Sideshow Bob
02-18-2010, 02:50 PM
I would say that the furlough is:

1/3 due to age 65,
1/3 due to economy
1/3 due to corporate greed

And UPS upsizing the size of their fleet and increasing the efficiency of the sort.

Indeed, the perfect fecal storm.

Buck92
02-18-2010, 02:50 PM
....they are worried about what will happen to their jobs if the ipa doesn't cave to ups bullying....


So... without commenting on the merits (or lack thereof) of Age 65, I can confirm (from a source in the training center) that managers are PETRIFIED they will lose their jobs if a furlough happens. Part of the reason you see MDPF vice MEF on some flights is these guys (particularly training center guys) realize they have types but almost ZERO time on the jet and even the Asian airlines hiring won't touch them (unless they need sim instructors I guess). In addition to ingraciating themselves to their brown puppet masters, they're building flight time (and reworking their resumes).

navigatro
02-18-2010, 02:51 PM
It's the Stockholm Syndrome..


Actually I think the managers suffer from Kabuki Syndrome.

(Google it)

Commando
02-18-2010, 03:07 PM
Boy, you guys are reaching. Even with economy, corporate greed, upsizing of the fleet, etc. If the age 60 rule was still in place, there is no way UPS would be furloughing.

The age 60 rule change is 100% the cause. 250 over 60 pilots would be history! In addition the 27 767 coming over the next three years. Plus 4 more 747's. 250 is a big number. I predict UPS only furloughs 200 max. Even if we are fat the 300 as some say, you take out the 250, do you think UPS would furlough 50? Don't think so.

Jetjok
02-18-2010, 03:17 PM
Back in the good old days when we had new hires, I used to liken managers to dogs.

A dog will wag his tail and act like he's your best friend. He may let you rub him behind the ears and buy him a drink, but get between him and his food at the wrong moment and even the best dog will bite you.

Plus, many have fleas, ticks and worms.

Bob,

Although I'm not at UPS, the fact that I was at one time allows me to make this comment. I take huge offense at your above statement. ;) We've raised dogs for over 30 years and I've never had even one that would bite me, regardless of whether I took their food away or not. As well, if treated correctly, they don't have fleas, ticks, or worms. That said, I've known a few UPS flight managers, and I could never go as far as to say that they wouldn't bite you, or that they didn't have fleas, ticks and worms. The ones I knew when I was on the property, were A-holes of the highest caliber, and as with plumbing pipes, I suspect that they haven't gotten better with age.

Good luck to you guys in this very stressful time.

JJ

weatherman
02-18-2010, 03:19 PM
ups is not going to furlough anyone. they've got bigger fish to fry. china is not going to wait for them to get their sh*t together, so to speak.

ups knew that the new ipa president was going to go after the illegal managers so they announced a furlough as their only defense.

ups wasn't going to get any mou money anyway because they are about to be understaffed in more ways than one this coming year; rest rule changes, growth, new domicile, etc, and they wouldn't have been able to offer the reduced lines anymore.

mou1 bought them some time and saved them some money in overstaffing in 2009.

ups will complete the rif bid in order to get the remaining dc8 crews off of vacation and save themselves some training costs.

ups will also use the 170 bodies without seats to put where ever they want. probably in shenzhen.

in any case fellow ipa'ers, don't get all wound up, don't waste your time looking for new flying jobs, and don't take your eye off the ball.

ups will be trying to distract us all.

Shaggy1970
02-18-2010, 03:59 PM
ups is not going to furlough anyone. they've got bigger fish to fry. china is not going to wait for them to get their sh*t together, so to speak.

ups knew that the new ipa president was going to go after the illegal managers so they announced a furlough as their only defense.

ups wasn't going to get any mou money anyway because they are about to be understaffed in more ways than one this coming year; rest rule changes, growth, new domicile, etc, and they wouldn't have been able to offer the reduced lines anymore.

mou1 bought them some time and saved them some money in overstaffing in 2009.

ups will complete the rif bid in order to get the remaining dc8 crews off of vacation and save themselves some training costs.

ups will also use the 170 bodies without seats to put where ever they want. probably in shenzhen.

in any case fellow ipa'ers, don't get all wound up, don't waste your time looking for new flying jobs, and don't take your eye off the ball.

ups will be trying to distract us all.

The only point I agree with is the last point about distraction.

Guys this is not like who shot Kennedy, so quit with the conspiracy theories. The truth is right before our very eyes, if you care to look at it.

We have 30% more cargo space on our airplanes with 20% less airplanes on property. Everyone wants nice, new, efficient, bigger airplanes to fly but these same airplanes costs jobs! Granted that 65 y/o law change didn't help our cause, economy being in the toilet, more efficient company both with their route structure and creative scheduling practice; the truth is we have too many pilots on property!

The company doesn't need to furlough this is correct but when the culture in the business world today is to cutback at the expense of peoples lives and CEO's only caring about dividends they pay out to people who they have never met, would you expect any less???

The only saving grace we have to keeping jobs on property is the upward trend if any, with regards to any increase in flying hours! Bid 10-03 will tell us that. I hope we have bottomed out and are on a upward swing, if not its going to be an awful long vacation! I have spent the last year praying for the best and planning for the worst, and it seems as though the worst has come to fruition.

Good Luck to all!

McBoeingBus
02-18-2010, 03:59 PM
ups is not going to furlough anyone. they've got bigger fish to fry. china is not going to wait for them to get their sh*t together, so to speak.

ups knew that the new ipa president was going to go after the illegal managers so they announced a furlough as their only defense.

ups wasn't going to get any mou money anyway because they are about to be understaffed in more ways than one this coming year; rest rule changes, growth, new domicile, etc, and they wouldn't have been able to offer the reduced lines anymore.

mou1 bought them some time and saved them some money in overstaffing in 2009.

ups will complete the rif bid in order to get the remaining dc8 crews off of vacation and save themselves some training costs.

ups will also use the 170 bodies without seats to put where ever they want. probably in shenzhen.

in any case fellow ipa'ers, don't get all wound up, don't waste your time looking for new flying jobs, and don't take your eye off the ball.

ups will be trying to distract us all.

I love your optomism. I just wonder how accurate you are? We'll find out in about 10 weeks.

MBB

767pilot
02-18-2010, 03:59 PM
I never understood why so many of the IPA pilots are in love with managers. ...

I forgot what the name of this syndrome is.

Stockholm Syndrome
Did you know that it is against the managers rules for them to "fratenize" with we peons?

SaltyDog
02-18-2010, 03:59 PM
ups is not going to furlough anyone.


Unfortunately, UPS will furlough. Why? simple fact that this is their second furlough announcement in 7 years. They were forced to cancel the first one. They will conduct this furlough simply to save face.

1800 RVR
02-18-2010, 04:10 PM
Unfortunately, UPS will furlough. Why? simple fact that this is their second furlough announcement in 7 years. They were forced to cancel the first one. They will conduct this furlough simply to save face.

Salty,

What has happened to you? You used to be a ray of optimism, and you've changed your avatar to the "mushroom cloud." Has UPS finally broken you? ;)

FrontSeat
02-18-2010, 04:13 PM
Stockholm Syndrome
Did you know that it is against the managers rules for them to "fratenize" with we peons?

So is that what they told you ..........

what other rules are there?

767pilot
02-18-2010, 04:19 PM
So is that what they told you ..........

what other rules are there?

It's in the book. Go ask any manager, it's on the desks

weatherman
02-18-2010, 04:25 PM
Unfortunately, UPS will furlough. Why? simple fact that this is their second furlough announcement in 7 years. They were forced to cancel the first one. They will conduct this furlough simply to save face.

that is simply faulty logic, and quite frankly against any and all fiduciary responsibility to ups shareholders.

as a stockholder, i would find it very irresponsible of ups to furlough simply to save face.

ups cares about making money. it's really that simple.

ups will use this furlough threat and reduction in force bid to their benefit, but they will have no choice but to call of the furlough to get what they want.

ups thinks long term.

BrownBusDriver
02-18-2010, 04:29 PM
In fifteen years, I seen very little logic out of this company. Alot of reaction, alot of spite and even alittle just plain stupid, not much logic. They always seem to be about 12 to 18 months behind on their decision making, just like now.

FrontSeat
02-18-2010, 04:29 PM
It's in the book. Go ask any manager, it's on the desks

I thought I was

Shaggy1970
02-18-2010, 04:30 PM
that is simply faulty logic, and quite frankly against any and all fiduciary responsibility to ups shareholders.

as a stockholder, i would find it very irresponsible of ups to furlough simply to save face.

ups cares about making money. it's really that simple.

ups will use this furlough threat and reduction in force bid to their benefit, but they will have no choice but to call of the furlough to get what they want.

ups thinks long term.

Dude, I am not trying to be an ass but what are you smoking? Pass some my way!

767pilot
02-18-2010, 04:36 PM
I thought I was

as accurate as many of your other posts

Shaggy1970
02-18-2010, 04:39 PM
as accurate as many of your other posts

You and frontseat should get a room!
:)

Night_Hawk
02-18-2010, 04:56 PM
, with regards to any increase in flying hours! Bid 10-03 will tell us that. I hope we have bottomed out and are on a upward swing

Good Luck to all!


how can you tell total block hrs in the bid packets?

thanks

FR8TFLYER
02-18-2010, 05:04 PM
Weatherman-

You are a management plant, we all know that. If I were you I would be worried about getting canned. UPS will furlough as Salty said, they are too proud to admit to making the wrong call, does not matter what it costs?

Salty, what's up with the mushroom cloud, not your personality as I know you???

say that again
02-18-2010, 05:53 PM
[QUOTE=Commando;765886]Sorry, But I agree with the scum bags. The Age 60 rule is 100% responsible for the potential Furlough.]

Chalk up another one that has fallen for managements intent to divide and conquer. One of the oldest tricks in the management handbook on how to bust a union.

weatherman
02-18-2010, 06:35 PM
In fifteen years, I seen very little logic out of this company. Alot of reaction, alot of spite and even alittle just plain stupid, not much logic. They always seem to be about 12 to 18 months behind on their decision making, just like now.

yet somehow they remain profitable year after year.

we pilots tend to think that the world revolves around us, but in reality i bet that scott davis and the atlanta crew don't give us much thought. they certainly are not sitting around a big table scheming about how to furlough the junior-most pilots at the ipa.

rather, i would imagine, they are figuring out how to compete with fedex and dhl in china, while maintaining their profitable business in the usa. they've got bigger fish to fry than the ipa.

weatherman
02-18-2010, 06:41 PM
Dude, I am not trying to be an ass but what are you smoking? Pass some my way!


rumor has it that ups will honor any and all resignation letters, contrary to what every, other single airline in the world does when they put pilots on furlough.

it's as if they don't want ipa pilots to go out and get a new job, even though they are saying that they don't have the flying here.

don't you find this a little odd if they really do think that they will be furloughing pilots until 2015?

it's a smokescreen.

something big is in the works.

peredavi
02-18-2010, 09:13 PM
Sorry, But I agree with the scum bags. The Age 60 rule is 100% responsible for the potential Furlough.

We have over 250 guys who would be playing golf, instead there here sucking on the Tit. Even though most have been Captains since Day One. Over 20 years left seat. Very selfish. But they have a law that lets em do it.

A man has a right to work as long as he can perform the job, in this still relatively free society.
Its not for you to decide when he must retire or be euthanized for the greater good of the Fatherland.
Auf wiedersehan

CheyDogFlies
02-18-2010, 09:19 PM
A man has a right to work as long as he can perform the job, in this still relatively free society.
Its not for you to decide when he must retire or be euthanized for the greater good of the Fatherland.
Auf wiedersehan

I am in complete agreement--let's euthanize the managers.

JustUnderPar
02-18-2010, 10:00 PM
I see this thread going No Where Fast!

Jonathan E
02-18-2010, 10:34 PM
OK, let's have a reality check.

What would be worth More than $130 mil to Lekites?

A: keeping the ACPs in the fold.

We're holding the cards here people. UPS is furloughing because they think that with IPA members off the property, we we won't integrate ACPs. This is a huge grab for them. While the US economy is in a recession.

But whether we integrate the ACPs, or not, craft and class is a huge issue that they stand to lose. So, Lekites has driven a big wedge between us and our ACPs, to keep them on management's side.

This is typical of management's myopticic thinking, after all we're dealing with Jethro Bodine here. (New ACARs delay code for metering "H3" or "Held Hostage by Hillbillies") They will lose "Craft and Class" issue, what will they do with ACPs after?

What will we do? Will we integrate? With Furloughees still out? Much trickier than when we had "Kumbayaa" "Win-Win" Miller running everything, eh?

Just food for thought here, I admit I'm rambling.

freightretriever
02-18-2010, 10:51 PM
What will we do? Will we integrate? With Furloughees still out? Much trickier than when we had "Kumbayaa" "Win-Win" Miller running everything, eh?


What we should do - tell the managers they got in the wrong line. Sorry about your luck. When UPS starts hiring again someday you are more than welcome to reapply and become an IPA pilot.

Shaggy1970
02-19-2010, 01:07 AM
how can you tell total block hrs in the bid packets?

thanks

Night,
The union does this every bid period, you can call and ask and someone there has the info!

CactusCrew
02-19-2010, 02:58 AM
What we should do - tell the managers they got in the wrong line. Sorry about your luck. When UPS starts hiring again someday you are more than welcome to reapply and become an IPA pilot.

UPS can put their "management" skills to use elsewhere ...

navigatro
02-19-2010, 03:51 AM
I think the company would rather lay off the majority of the managers (lets say 150) than "lose" them to the IPA.

$300K x 150 = $225 million in savings over 5 years.

They may keep a few around to do "real" management jobs, but no flying.

Both sides win.

I would be VERY nervous if I was a manager.

BrownBusDriver
02-19-2010, 04:09 AM
[QUOTE=weatherman;766040]yet somehow they remain profitable year after year.

Yet they continue to destroy their relationship with all of their longest employee groups. Your above quote tends to come from those who believe that the dollar above all is the justification for all actions. Frankly, this company wasn't founded or built on this idea, it evolved into this with the greed of the management over the last 3 decades or so.

JMO, not that it really matters, I'm not going anywhere. On the other hand, beyond my paycheck I could care less about this place. I have never felt that way about any other place I have worked.

Freightpuppy
02-19-2010, 05:17 AM
I would say that the furlough is:

1/3 due to age 65,
1/3 due to economy
1/3 due to corporate greed

I agree with you but I would say some of it is due to the managers being here in the capacity that they are.

Freightpuppy
02-19-2010, 05:25 AM
I think the company would rather lay off the majority of the managers (lets say 150) than "lose" them to the IPA.

$300K x 150 = $225 million in savings over 5 years.

They may keep a few around to do "real" management jobs, but no flying.

Both sides win.

I would be VERY nervous if I was a manager.

I would like to see this happen. This would be definitely a great thing.

Pilot7576
02-19-2010, 06:57 AM
salty...

bring back the scooter!!!

Sideshow Bob
02-19-2010, 07:32 AM
UPS can put their "management" skills to use elsewhere ...

Indeed...

I have noticed that the aircraft floors are filthier than ever, and the lavs are nastier than ever. There are those off-line Jepp revisions to integrate into the bricks, there are beds to be made in the sorts, there are messes to be cleaned and condiment racks to be re-stocked in the hazmat cafe, there are aircraft coolers to be sanitized. On and on.

SaltyDog
02-19-2010, 09:29 AM
that is simply faulty logic, and quite frankly against any and all fiduciary responsibility to ups shareholders.

as a stockholder, i would find it very irresponsible of ups to furlough simply to save face.

ups cares about making money. it's really that simple.

ups will use this furlough threat and reduction in force bid to their benefit, but they will have no choice but to call of the furlough to get what they want.

ups thinks long term.

Was only passing the summary line. Still fail to understand your premise that this is a false furlough. Have personal opinions regarding length and depth though.

JustUnderPar
02-19-2010, 09:39 AM
Salty....Thank God you changed your avatar back!! I thought all was LOST:D

Must have been a bad day! We need your wisdom on here and at the IPA!

SaltyDog
02-19-2010, 09:48 AM
Salty....Thank God you changed your avatar back!! I thought all was LOST:D



Actually quite the opposite <g>

weatherman
02-19-2010, 09:59 AM
[QUOTE=SaltyDog;766286] Still fail to understand your premise that this is a false furlough. QUOTE]

ups cannot afford to be left behind in china. fedex and dhl are making big moves there as is ups.

it is my opinion that they have bigger fish to fry than the ipa.

will they furlough? possibly, but highly unlikely in my opinion. that will cause a whole new set of problems that could impede their growth.

Shaggy1970
02-19-2010, 10:22 AM
Deleted sorry!

767pilot
02-19-2010, 01:58 PM
I think the company would rather lay off the majority of the managers (lets say 150) than "lose" them to the IPA.

$300K x 150 = $225 million in savings over 5 years.

They may keep a few around to do "real" management jobs, but no flying.

Both sides win.

I would be VERY nervous if I was a manager.

I would expect to see the company dump just as many "managers" as they think that they can get away with right before this thing gets some momentum behind it. Maybe they can trade in their ATP's for CDL's

navigatro
02-20-2010, 03:55 AM
Just heard from a friend who works in "special projects" in Atlanta HQ that the plan is to reduce the FQM's by half, by the end of the year. That is about 80 I believe.

brownie
02-20-2010, 06:09 AM
It's no hear say any longer. The same individual that told me a week before ups announces the furlough told me that 68 fqm are on the cut list and the dumping starts 1 month after the first line pilot leaves the property. He also said they don't need to give 90 day notice since it's not required and will only be something like 2 weeks notice or a month and a severance package and all thier benies that they have accumulated. It's a sad state of industry for all, managment or line slugs. Wish them all the best.

757upspilot
02-20-2010, 06:16 AM
It's no hear say any longer. The same individual that told me a week before ups announces the furlough told me that 68 fqm are on the cut list and the dumping starts 1 month after the first line pilot leaves the property. He also said they don't need to give 90 day notice since it's not required and will only be something like 2 weeks notice or a month and a severance package and all thier benies that they have accumulated. It's a sad state of industry for all, managment or line slugs. Wish them all the best.
While I don't care for the way UPS has structured the management of the airline the fact that ANY pilot on the property gets treated this way is bad. While some of us may not like individual management pilots they are people in the same profession and anytime a pilot is treated badly it damages us all.:(

navigatro
02-20-2010, 06:35 AM
Agreed. I feel bad for anyone that loses their job.

Pilot7576
02-20-2010, 08:09 AM
I'll believe that rumor only when it happens...they would be cutting their own super reserves in time of furlough...more likely a mgmt rumor to make us feel sorry for them instead of the contempt they deserve for flying line pilot's trips in time of furlough...

JMO

Pilot7576

Kibutznik
02-20-2010, 08:19 AM
I'll believe that rumor only when it happens...they would be cutting their own super reserves in time of furlough...more likely a mgmt rumor to make us feel sorry for them instead of the contempt they deserve for flying line pilot's trips in time of furlough...


Exactly....
Dont get fooled into pity. They wont think twice about flying trips whilst 300 of us are furloughed.

Sideshow Bob
02-20-2010, 08:20 AM
Agreed. I feel bad for anyone that loses their job.

While I may/might/in rare cases have some sympathy for those who were ONLY offered a job in management, I have little/no sympathy for those who jumped off the IPA list to go there regardless of their rationale.

Most were lured there by the ability to circumnavigate seniority and make the big money grab.

There are a chosen few, who along with Dorsey really tried to bring them into the fold, and they are a different breed altogether.

As for the others, they rolled their dice. If it comes up craps it's entirely their own fault...we have more deserving people to be concerned with right now.

CactusCrew
02-20-2010, 08:41 AM
Agreed. I feel bad for anyone that loses their job.

I don't mind so much when it is someone who chose to cut into line for the quick left seat ... YMMV

FlyFishin
02-20-2010, 08:48 AM
I'll believe that rumor only when it happens...they would be cutting their own super reserves in time of furlough...more likely a mgmt rumor to make us feel sorry for them instead of the contempt they deserve for flying line pilot's trips in time of furlough...

JMO

Pilot7576
I agree completely. It doesn't make any sense to furlough 300 pilots and cut 68 managers. Who's going to fly all the MEF?

Shaggy1970
02-20-2010, 09:43 AM
I agree completely. It doesn't make any sense to furlough 300 pilots and cut 68 managers. Who's going to fly all the MEF?

Those of us that are already picking up open time and excepting JA's. The EB needs to act on this and they need to make examples of these greedy Ba$tards!

JRT123
02-20-2010, 11:12 AM
Okay, so if they let go FQMs, who do they choose? It's not like they have a seniority system ... :confused:

Priority 3
02-20-2010, 11:16 AM
Okay, so if they let go FQMs, who do they choose? It's not like they have a seniority system ... :confused:

That's what the FQMs don't know. Tons of uncertainty for their group right now.

Xtwinbeechguy
02-20-2010, 11:50 AM
And UPS upsizing the size of their fleet and increasing the efficiency of the sort.

Indeed, the perfect fecal storm.

Don't forget since the most junior of us were hired we got rid of the 727, 747 Classic fleet, and the DC-8 fleet. That left us a little overstaffed with no need for Engineers.
Not to mention the excess of 3 fleets of managers. Oh I forgot we have added one fleet so the Classic could be ignored for numbers purpses.

Soyathink
02-20-2010, 01:09 PM
I have never seen so many conspiracy theorists all in one place before. I don't work for UPS. I have been around UPS all of my life, before UPS owned an aircraft. My father was with UPS over 35 years before they even served every state. He was in management. He would take me out to the airport when I was 12 and UPS started flying with 72's, DC-8, and 747's. Evergreen, Orion and Ryan I think were operating the aircraft then. The pilots were great and showed me around the flightdeck. I loved aviation ever since. Some of you here have lost touch with that. UPS was a hard place to work but rewarding. My father had enough to retire on but was too young then. He ended up working out a deal with them and resigned at 50. He said the company had changed. He was a manager and looked at things as work as a team and get things done. The people that he answered too just looked at numbers and figures. I asked him why he was retiring at 50 when there are guys still working in their 70's. He said it's their ego. He wants to be able to enjoy life and enjoy his grandkids. He was in the Pac rim and Europe while I was in highschool. (late 80's). I'm with you guys who may be furloughed. I lost my job the end of August. My wife just lost her job. Luckily instead of spending as much as we made we have some homes paid for including the one we live in. The others are rented bringing in income. I didn't need to be in this position and feel bitter about losing my job. It was a move just to keep shareholders happy at the expense of mine and other families. My point is UPS isn't the company it once was and needs to re-evaluate it's self. The over 60 guys who don't need the $$$$ for family health issues need to look at enjoying what they have and give others a chance at a career. The others probably think UPS caused the economy to fail just so they could furlough. I'll tell you something, back in the 1990's before my Dad retired he was proud to say UPS never laid off or furloughed. How would you like to be the one to tell somebody they no longer have a job. I feel nobody wants to see that. The economy, the over 60 guys and Atlanta kissing shareholder A$$ is what will furlough. The company going public is what ruined UPS culture. Now I need to go find a job.

Freightpuppy
02-20-2010, 01:27 PM
While I may/might/in rare cases have some sympathy for those who were ONLY offered a job in management, I have little/no sympathy for those who jumped off the IPA list to go there regardless of their rationale.

Most were lured there by the ability to circumnavigate seniority and make the big money grab.

There are a chosen few, who along with Dorsey really tried to bring them into the fold, and they are a different breed altogether.

As for the others, they rolled their dice. If it comes up craps it's entirely their own fault...we have more deserving people to be concerned with right now.

Amen to that!

FR8TFLYER
02-20-2010, 03:20 PM
If they fire any managers let's hope they start with the ones who were former IPA, I have no respect for any of those guys. Guys hired directly into management did not have a choice as fas as I know.

McBoeingBus
02-20-2010, 03:40 PM
If they fire any managers let's hope they start with the ones who were former IPA, I have no respect for any of those guys. Guys hired directly into management did not have a choice as fas as I know.

I'm not convinced that is true. 99% of the guys that were hired direct into management understood what they were doing. I knew some that went direct to management. IPA pilots tried to explain the differences and let them know what they were doing. I'd say that they all did it for money. Some for pure greed and they were too good for 30K/year. Some of the managers had families that they had to support or kids with special needs. I'd rather see the former IPA guys back first, at least they know both sides and gave the IPA a shot for a while. I'd bet that they would probably go back willingly. The direct management pilots had no intention of being in the IPA at all. If there is an integration, staple them all at the bottom.

Freighter Captain
02-21-2010, 02:05 AM
If there is an integration, staple them all at the bottom.

There will never be an integration if roughly half the FQM's are axed here.

They'll be so scared (the ones remaining) that they'll be more aligned with UPS management than with any notions of joining a union like the IPA.

Forget integration.

To think UPS would release FQM's by date of hire is laughable. It's going to be a purge.

furloughman
02-21-2010, 07:31 AM
ups is not going to furlough anyone. they've got bigger fish to fry. china is not going to wait for them to get their sh*t together, so to speak.

ups knew that the new ipa president was going to go after the illegal managers so they announced a furlough as their only defense.

ups wasn't going to get any mou money anyway because they are about to be understaffed in more ways than one this coming year; rest rule changes, growth, new domicile, etc, and they wouldn't have been able to offer the reduced lines anymore.

mou1 bought them some time and saved them some money in overstaffing in 2009.

ups will complete the rif bid in order to get the remaining dc8 crews off of vacation and save themselves some training costs.

ups will also use the 170 bodies without seats to put where ever they want. probably in shenzhen.

in any case fellow ipa'ers, don't get all wound up, don't waste your time looking for new flying jobs, and don't take your eye off the ball.

ups will be trying to distract us all.

Weatherman is correct. Take a deep breath and keep your eye on the ball boys and girls. Let's sit back and watch UPS stumble over themselves.

Tigerpilot1995
02-21-2010, 08:31 PM
UPS is acting like a rabid dog that has been backed into a corner. Expect nothing rational and it to get very ugly. They have already come to the IPA asking for relief on this "open time" issue. I don't think the future is very bright for this airline.

Shaggy1970
02-21-2010, 09:32 PM
UPS is acting like a rabid dog that has been backed into a corner. Expect nothing rational and it to get very ugly. They have already come to the IPA asking for relief on this "open time" issue. I don't think the future is very bright for this airline.

Tiger,
Where did you hear about UPS asking for relief? Are these guys retarded?

brownie
02-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Are these guys retarded?

Ahhhhhhh ya:D

CheyDogFlies
02-21-2010, 09:55 PM
They have already come to the IPA asking for relief on this "open time" issue. I don't think the future is very bright for this airline.

FWIW (next to nothing?) heard that from a manager as well.

Buck92
02-21-2010, 09:56 PM
Can you still say "retarded?" I thought it was the R-word now. :confused:

Tigerpilot1995
02-22-2010, 04:05 AM
Tiger,
Where did you hear about UPS asking for relief? Are these guys retarded?

Yes they are retarded. That is why I have stopped giving them credit for "doing this for 100 years." These guys aren't that smart. I think they go out of their way to ignore smart people that work at UPS. BT mentioned it at the SDF GMM.

Freightpuppy
02-22-2010, 06:12 AM
Maybe they are just the smartest idiots.....LOL

UPSFO4LIFE
02-22-2010, 08:11 AM
They have already come to the IPA asking for relief on this "open time" issue. I don't think the future is very bright for this airline.

If you heard it from a manager, don't believe it! Until you actually hear it from someone on the EB, don't believe it. As of yesterday, the company and IPA have not talked for two weeks.

FR8TFLYER
02-22-2010, 08:32 AM
Wrong, they met on Friday.

UPSFO4LIFE
02-22-2010, 08:41 AM
Wrong, they met on Friday.

Kind of funny since BT told the ANC folks on SATURDAY that they had not had any meetings with the company. Hmmmmmm!

MX727
02-22-2010, 09:26 AM
Maybe they are just the smartest idiots.....LOL

Mental deficiency used to be more finely classified using the following technical terms

IQ Range Classification
70-80 Borderline deficiency
50-69 Moron
20-49 Imbecile
<20 Idiot

:D

Night Eagle
02-22-2010, 11:22 AM
Kind of funny since BT told the ANC folks on SATURDAY that they had not had any meetings with the company. Hmmmmmm!

Don't confuse the truth with the rumors people want to believe. After all this is APC.;)

Section Eight
02-23-2010, 03:37 AM
that is simply faulty logic, and quite frankly against any and all fiduciary responsibility to ups shareholders.

as a stockholder, i would find it very irresponsible of ups to furlough simply to save face.

ups cares about making money. it's really that simple.

ups will use this furlough threat and reduction in force bid to their benefit, but they will have no choice but to call of the furlough to get what they want.

ups thinks long term.

You may have missed the bulletin, but they can't do both. In order to USE the RIF language, there must be a RIF.

Simply put, they will furlough.

"The last airline you'll ever work for" as I was told on day one, may be just that. With our illustrious leader's hopeful integration of the FQM's I may just be done. UPS will likely draw this one out as long as they can. Gotta love it.

FliFast
02-23-2010, 03:52 AM
UPS is acting like a rabid dog that has been backed into a corner. Expect nothing rational and it to get very ugly. They have already come to the IPA asking for relief on this "open time" issue. I don't think the future is very bright for this airline.


I heard the same thing from the IPA side. I'll try to track down the source.

Essentially we are seeing a financial excercise turn into divorce proceedings, whereas; the endgame is now uncertain, both sides are going to hunker down with their positions of difference, and ill-will will become more and more galvanized the longer this accounting excercise continues.

Fair to say, the MOU presented savings and some unintended consequences. For instance, reduction in payroll headcount was offset by the high concentration of RDG participants in ANC causing a shortage of line holders and thus negating savings.

Taken one step further, UPS has never furloughed. This is uncharted waters for the airline segment. In conjunction, the mechanics (teamsters) are nearing impasse with the company which may be the driving force behind the "scramble" to open our collective bargaining agreement. In my opinion, they seek concessions in order to increase their counteroffer to our mechanics before an impasse is declared.

Coming full circle, this accounting excercise of "furlough" may produce savings but because it is a new event on the airline side the unintended consequences may produce a variety of expenses which may more than negate proposed savings. I acknowledge that we have more bodies than we have seats right now, however the MOU or other possible ideas show that there are creative ways aside of furlough to mitigate this that do not involve opening up the cba.

I speak only for myself in saying, to make money you need to spend money. If cost control is an issue; than issuing bonuses, reinstating raises and 401k matches, and raising dividends should commence after cost containment is complete as opposed to using jobs to finance them.

FF

767pilot
02-23-2010, 01:20 PM
Essentially we are seeing a financial excercise turn into divorce proceedings,..

FF

very well thought out analysis

weatherman
02-23-2010, 01:46 PM
I heard the same thing from the IPA side. I'll try to track down the source.

bt confirmed it during a sdf gmm. he offered them to call off the furlough and there will be no more ot ban.

JustUnderPar
02-23-2010, 05:23 PM
I speak only for myself in saying, to make money you need to spend money. If cost control is an issue; than issuing bonuses, reinstating raises and 401k matches, and raising dividends should commence after cost containment is complete as opposed to using jobs to finance them.

FF

FF-
You cannot use logic here. It is UPS after-all.

Very good points of view. Gonna be interesting to see how this works out. Just over 2 weeks into the furlough "notice" and the company is looking for relief.....from the OT ban.

:eek::eek:

JustUnderPar
02-23-2010, 09:40 PM
You may have missed the bulletin, but they can't do both. In order to USE the RIF language, there must be a RIF.

Simply put, they will furlough.

"The last airline you'll ever work for" as I was told on day one, may be just that. With our illustrious leader's hopeful integration of the FQM's I may just be done. UPS will likely draw this one out as long as they can. Gotta love it.

I agree they will furlough. It has to happen to use the RIF. They need to use the RIF, else there will be TOO many training events (that is another story).

As far as the managers..er...Supervisors (because they are MISLABELED as managers by UPS) go. See how many are flying on the 400 and MD lately? This would not be happening if they followed our negotiated contract. There will be more to follow I am sure.

Be SAFE out there!!

L'il J.Seinfeld
05-31-2010, 08:37 PM
ups is not going to furlough anyone. they've got bigger fish to fry. china is not going to wait for them to get their sh*t together, so to speak.

ups knew that the new ipa president was going to go after the illegal managers so they announced a furlough as their only defense.

ups wasn't going to get any mou money anyway because they are about to be understaffed in more ways than one this coming year; rest rule changes, growth, new domicile, etc, and they wouldn't have been able to offer the reduced lines anymore.

mou1 bought them some time and saved them some money in overstaffing in 2009.

ups will complete the rif bid in order to get the remaining dc8 crews off of vacation and save themselves some training costs.

ups will also use the 170 bodies without seats to put where ever they want. probably in shenzhen.

in any case fellow ipa'ers, don't get all wound up, don't waste your time looking for new flying jobs, and don't take your eye off the ball.

ups will be trying to distract us all.

Maybe I'm not the only one who was a bit off prognosticating.:) You're forgiven though. Predicting what UPS is going to do using logic and common business sense never works.

177RG
06-01-2010, 07:42 PM
OK, time to come out of the closet. Fifteen years ago I represented Rob Dorsey and a few of his fellow FQSs (hell, we invented the term). I have offered, over and over, to represent IPA for the specific purpose of accreting the FQSs into IPS. I finally got an interview in March. Do you know hat your IPA said? "We can't get three votes in his favor." The rationale? "He might turn against us."

You don't have the counsel you need. The counsel you need is available. You can figure out the rest.

Night_Hawk
06-02-2010, 02:11 AM
"We can't get three votes in his favor." The rationale? "He might turn against us."


Who is "his & he" in the above quote?

navigatro
06-02-2010, 03:49 AM
Who is "his & he" in the above quote?

I think it is Dorsey; but based on recent history, it might be Roberto.

MD11Simnerd
06-02-2010, 06:35 AM
...................

OK, time to come out of the closet. Fifteen years ago I represented Rob Dorsey and a few of his fellow FQSs (hell, we invented the term). I have offered, over and over, to represent IPA for the specific purpose of accreting the FQSs into IPS. I finally got an interview in March. Do you know hat your IPA said? "We can't get three votes in his favor." The rationale? "He might turn against us."

You don't have the counsel you need. The counsel you need is available. You can figure out the rest.

CactusCrew
06-02-2010, 07:14 AM
OK, time to come out of the closet. Fifteen years ago I represented Rob Dorsey and a few of his fellow FQSs (hell, we invented the term). I have offered, over and over, to represent IPA for the specific purpose of accreting the FQSs into IPS. I finally got an interview in March. Do you know hat your IPA said? "We can't get three votes in his favor." The rationale? "He might turn against us."

You don't have the counsel you need. The counsel you need is available. You can figure out the rest.


Poor choice of words ... :p

Otherwise ...

:confused:

say that again
06-03-2010, 07:49 AM
OK, time to come out of the closet. Fifteen years ago I represented Rob Dorsey and a few of his fellow FQSs (hell, we invented the term). I have offered, over and over, to represent IPA for the specific purpose of accreting the FQSs into IPS. I finally got an interview in March. Do you know hat your IPA said? "We can't get three votes in his favor." The rationale? "He might turn against us."

You don't have the counsel you need. The counsel you need is available. You can figure out the rest.

After reading your incredibly poor writing skills, it is obvious your are either;
1.) Not a lawyer or,
2.) A very bad lawyer

It appears the IPA made a wise choice to not hire you.

Sideshow Bob
06-03-2010, 02:52 PM
After reading your incredibly poor writing skills, it is obvious your are either;
1.) Not a lawyer or,
2.) A very bad lawyer

It appears the IPA made a wise choice to not hire you.

For starters anyone admitting they fly or have flown a Cardinal RG is suspect.:D

177RG
06-04-2010, 06:02 PM
For starters anyone admitting they fly or have flown a Cardinal RG is suspect.:D
Unless you have an intimate knowledge of hydraulics.;)

177RG
06-04-2010, 06:06 PM
After reading your incredibly poor writing skills, it is obvious your are either;
1.) Not a lawyer or,
2.) A very bad lawyer

It appears the IPA made a wise choice to not hire you.
It kinda depends. How do you like your current representation? Or are you not an IPA member?:p

say that again
06-05-2010, 11:58 AM
It kinda depends. How do you like your current representation? Or are you not an IPA member?:p
I am very happy with my current representation thank you and yes, I am a charter IPA member. I've also spent more time across the table from UPS Labor and Tony Coleman than you could ever dream about.

757upspilot
06-05-2010, 01:16 PM
I am very happy with my current representation thank you and yes, I am a charter IPA member. I've also spent more time across the table from UPS Labor and Tony Coleman than you could ever dream about.

Say again.
177Rg has to be a manager or a poser. He loses track of who the players are and doesn't know the basics of the contract. Either that or he is just trying to provoke a response. Sitting in the same room with Coleman would make my skin crawl.

177RG
06-05-2010, 04:56 PM
I am very happy with my current representation thank you and yes, I am a charter IPA member. I've also spent more time across the table from UPS Labor and Tony Coleman than you could ever dream about.
Gee, that's nice. How many arbitrations does IPA currently have pending?:(
How many years will it take to resolve those arbitrations at the current annual rate?:eek:
Not that you would necessarily care, given that you have twenty years in at UPS.:rolleyes:

177RG
06-05-2010, 04:59 PM
Say again.
177Rg has to be a manager or a poser. He loses track of who the players are and doesn't know the basics of the contract. Either that or he is just trying to provoke a response. Sitting in the same room with Coleman would make my skin crawl.
It would be easier to keep track of the players if they didn't change sides so readily. I have a pretty good idea which side I'm on.:D

757upspilot
06-05-2010, 05:03 PM
It would be easier to keep track of the players if they didn't change sides so readily. I have a pretty good idea which side I'm on.:D
So do I:D .

177RG
06-05-2010, 05:08 PM
So do I:D .
I doubt it.:D

Airbum
06-05-2010, 06:30 PM
It would be easier to keep track of the players if they didn't change sides so readily. I have a pretty good idea which side I'm on.:D

i have read your posts and really don't understand what it is you are trying to achieve. If you are upset with how your employment was handled 15 years ago this is not the way to get over it.