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View Full Version : Fedex Secondary line antics


Adlerdriver
02-23-2010, 06:26 PM
Block Display gave me a little peek into my secondary line for March. While I know itís not final, the block display seems to be spot on so far, in my experience. With that all in mind:
I thought I had this secondary thing figured out. Maybe not. Perhaps someone can educate me if Iím not seeing the big picture.

I have a secondary in the top one-third for March. I have 4 carry-over vacation days which limited my trips options to one or a combination totaling about 49 CH. My input was:
#1 Ė 13/14 Mar off
#2 Ė ONE specific trip all by its lonesome
Followed by other inputs not relevant to this issue.

How is it that a guy with a secondary line that is 7 lines junior to me got my #2 choice? This trip would have left me well below the max CH for March secondarys (~69CH) so thatís not the issue. I havenít worked between 4 Feb and this trip I wanted on 20 Mar, so thereís no scheduling legalities in play either.

Like I said, maybe Iím missing something. If someone is a secondary guru, please enlighten me. I thought they just built them in seniority order now.

Can someone PM me Mike, the ANC secondary builders, last name. I may need to head out tomorrow to fight some windmills once these lines get published.
Thanks.


MD11Fr8Dog
02-23-2010, 06:59 PM
Block Display gave me a little peek into my secondary line for March. While I know it’s not final, the block display seems to be spot on so far, in my experience. With that all in mind:
I thought I had this secondary thing figured out. Maybe not. Perhaps someone can educate me if I’m not seeing the big picture.

I have a secondary in the top one-third for March. I have 4 carry-over vacation days which limited my trips options to one or a combination totaling about 49 CH. My input was:
#1 – 13/14 Mar off
#2 – ONE specific trip all by its lonesome
Followed by other inputs not relevant to this issue.

How is it that a guy with a secondary line that is 7 lines junior to me got my #2 choice? This trip would have left me well below the max CH for March secondarys (~69CH) so that’s not the issue. I haven’t worked between 4 Feb and this trip I wanted on 20 Mar, so there’s no scheduling legalities in play either.

Like I said, maybe I’m missing something. If someone is a secondary guru, please enlighten me. I thought they just built them in seniority order now.

Can someone PM me Mike, the ANC secondary builders, last name. I may need to head out tomorrow to fight some windmills once these lines get published.
Thanks.


My guess is you got 13/14March off? Skeds will say you got your first choice! I always bid specific trips first, since they usually will honor the days off by default, no?

FedExBusBoy
02-23-2010, 07:11 PM
you have no defense......it was your 2nd choice plain and simple


Adlerdriver
02-23-2010, 07:22 PM
Obviously I don't understand. What does my second choice have to do with a guy 7 lines junior?

Do they still go through everyone's inputs and try to give everyone their first choice before they consider the second choices? I guess I thought that changed.

I thought they built the #1 secondary to completion and then moved on to #2 and so on.

MalteseX
02-23-2010, 07:30 PM
I concur with FedExBusBoy. It was your 2nd choice. They once told me "YOU ONLY HAVE ONE FIRST CHOICE" === if you get it, they have honored your request. You would have an argument IF you didn't get the days off you requested AND you didn't get the trip.... but the way it was explained to me when I used to bid/get secondaries and I complained about much the same thing you are complaining about...... They don't fill ALL your choices on the first go.... they try to fill your first, then your second
I may be wrong, but it was explained to me like this....It's kind of like bidding vacation. ..... you bid your first choice, second etc. They go in seniority order, or in this case, secondary line number order (you can bid lower lines etc).... they go to Line 1 and look at the guy's choices. They try to honor his first choice--- if they do, then they go TO THE NEXT GUY and try to honor his first choice, etc. If they can't honor the first guy's first choice, then they look at his second, then the third if can't fulfill the second, but as soon as they fulfill a choice, then they go to the NEXT GUY not the next choice. That's why if you want a specific trip BID IT FIRST if the days off that you want can be fulfilled by that trip. Bottom Line is that they fulfill your first request...... on a side note, if you put on one line Trip 1 and trip 22 and trip 345 etc on the same priority line (such as first choice) and they cannot honor any ONE trip, you will not get any of the trips and they will go to your second "line"......

MalteseX
02-23-2010, 07:37 PM
Obviously I don't understand. What does my second choice have to do with a guy 7 lines junior?

Do they still go through everyone's inputs and try to give everyone their first choice before they consider the second choices? I guess I thought that changed.

I thought they built the #1 secondary to completion and then moved on to #2 and so on.

Sorry, I posted the post above before I read this from you.... Actually, they explained to me that they try to give everyone their first choice --- not all their choices. (that's when I quit bidding secondaries---I know many guys can't --- but if you can avoid it, do... it's too much a crapshoot).

Adlerdriver
02-23-2010, 07:40 PM
I get all that.

I was under the impression that the method of building them like Maltese described had changed with the new contract. They were now built in seniority order to completion before the next line was considered.
Can't say why I ended up thinking that - I'd like to get a straight answer from someone either way. I'm kind of tired of the smoke and mirrors.

Beertini
02-23-2010, 07:48 PM
Maltese is correct. You don't get ALL of your choices honored before they move down the juniority list. You get the first one your seniority allows you to hold, then they move to the next guy and give him what his seniority allows. They go all the way around the list before they get back to your next choice.

What you are describing is more of a preferential bidding thing I think.

Cheers,
Beertini

Busboy
02-23-2010, 07:51 PM
Obviously I don't understand. What does my second choice have to do with a guy 7 lines junior?

Do they still go through everyone's inputs and try to give everyone their first choice before they consider the second choices? I guess I thought that changed.

I thought they built the #1 secondary to completion and then moved on to #2 and so on.

...I'd like to get a straight answer from someone either way. I'm kind of tired of the smoke and mirrors.



I really don't think there is a straight answer. You are "requesting" trips, days off, etc...And, sadly, it appears that it is up to the individual scheduler on how to award them. I've had VTOs that I got more than my 1st choice. And, I know that many junior to me wanted my 2nd or 3rd choice, but I got them. And no, I'm not one of the "payola" types.

I know this doesn't help you...But, it is yet another part of our contract that needs to be cleaned up.

The Phase in conflict make-up is done strictly by seniority. That procedure is what you described with your earlier post.

Jetblack
02-23-2010, 08:00 PM
They build them in seniority order not by everyones first choice.

Adler. Was the trip you were asking for 49 CH's? If so you would not get that because your line value would have been 73. 4 days of vacation at 6CH/day and 1 49 CH trip. You stated that the max line value was 69.

Jetblack
02-23-2010, 08:07 PM
Maltese is correct. You don't get ALL of your choices honored before they move down the juniority list. You get the first one your seniority allows you to hold, then they move to the next guy and give him what his seniority allows. They go all the way around the list before they get back to your next choice.

What you are describing is more of a preferential bidding thing I think.

Cheers,
Beertini

Beertini,

The secondary line system we have is PBS. We don't have a pilot interface that is normal at other major airlines.

Adlerdriver
02-23-2010, 08:19 PM
They build them in seniority order not by everyones first choice.

Adler. Was the trip you were asking for 49 CH's? If so you would not get that because your line value would have been 73. 4 days of vacation at 6CH/day and 1 49 CH trip. You stated that the max line value was 69.

No - the max line value for March is 73. This trip was ~45 which + the 24 vaca CH would have put me at ~69, still 4 CH below the limit.

Bottom line is, I should have put the trip ahead of the days off, I guess. I've had great success w/ secondaries over the last year and I thought I had it licked. I'm just P.O.ed that this whole process is still filled w/ such mystery.

pig on the wing
02-23-2010, 08:25 PM
If you are an ANC FO the max credit for secondaries was 74 for March. I requested simply 3 specific days off then max blg and my line was built to 73:56 hrs. I spoke with the VTO scheduler a couple of months ago (since I'm no longer able to hold a line) and he specifically stated that the lines are built in seniority order where all your requests would be processed before the next in seniority. He then said the more requests you make the easier the "software" gets confused. My conversation with him left me a bit confused yet I have tried to keep it as simple as possible--days off + max blg and can't complain too much.
While we are on the VTO rant, the CIC window should be seperated from 36hr request window allowing us secondary holders a more accurate view of what is left in open time after the initial carry in pick up.. VTO's blow..

Jetblack
02-23-2010, 08:25 PM
Call your futures scheduler and explain your concerns. He will be able to explain the system more easily than doing it on the web boards. If you call one of the FOA's they can give you his number.

Tuck
02-23-2010, 09:07 PM
It would make absolutely no sense to build each line according to the #1 choice then moving to the next guy. If that were the case then you would never have any secondary lines full of R days only - they would give trips to everyone first and then move down and ultimately give R days out after satisfying everyone's first choice. They obviously don't do that - in MEM approximately the bottom 25% almost always go full reserve.

bidxguy
02-24-2010, 04:51 AM
Did the guy junior to you have makeup due to a training conflict or CIC? If so, those make-up requests happen BEFORE the VTOs.

Beertini
02-24-2010, 05:26 AM
It would make absolutely no sense to build each line according to the #1 choice then moving to the next guy.


I don't have time to fully 'splain this as I am on my way to work, but let's have a hypothetical situation:

Pilot #1 wants: Trip XYZ, then days 1-3 off, then Trip ABC and Trip 666
Pilot #2 wants: Trip XYZ, then days 13-18 off, then Trip ABC, then Trip 666
Pilot #3 wants: Days 1-3 off, then Trip ABC, then Trip XYZ, then Trip 1

The way they build the lines is by going in seniority order, so...
Pilot #1 gets his 1st fillabe choice (Trip XYZ)
Pilot #2 gets his 1st fillable choice (days 13-18 off)
Pilot #3 gets his 1st fillabe choice (Days 1-3 off)

Now they go back to the top of the list, so....
Pilot #1 gets his next fillable choice of (Trip ABC and Trip 666)
Pilot #2 gets hosed because he didn't make enough choices
Pilot #3 gets his next fillable choice of (Trip 1)

...and so on. I know I have oversimplified this but I am pretty sure that is how the system works.

Cheers,
Beertini

P.S. You are correct Jetblack in that the Secondary system is LIKE preferential bidding, but it isn't a true PBS system. Perhaps we are splitting hairs.

FedExBusBoy
02-24-2010, 05:44 AM
Beertini is spot on...........

That's how I was explained the "software" does the process and it has held true the past few times I have done it

Call the schedulers and let them give you the low down

FR8Hauler
02-24-2010, 05:51 AM
I do know that I am a conspiracy theorist. However, I am convinced they give you the opposite of what you request on these things. My first choice was 1-13 off. What did they give me? A trip that runs 1-10 March! Going out of his way to build good will.

Adlerdriver
02-24-2010, 06:26 AM
Did the guy junior to you have makeup due to a training conflict or CIC? If so, those make-up requests happen BEFORE the VTOs.

No - he got it via secondary process.


Beertini is spot on...........

That's how I was explained the "software" does the process and it has held true the past few times I have done it

Call the schedulers and let them give you the low down

BB, Beertini
I got the lowdown this morning from crew planning and that's not how it works (according to them).

The computer builds each line in seniority order and does not do the "one-pass through trying to give each person their first choice, etc." I thought that's how it works. The only wild card is how you format your inputs and what kind of "weighting" the inputs you provide are given.

In my case, it was a 48 hour buffer issue with more vacation I have at the start of the April bid month. Oops - should have slid it one day to the right. :(

But, to clarify - If you put in a simple input of 3 individual single trips as your first, second and third choice and you're legal for them, you'll get them. The guy right behind you with the same "top three" will get none of them. That's straight from the horse's mouth at crew planning an hour ago.

NotsoFast
02-24-2010, 06:59 AM
You cannot figure the system out, it is meant to be confusing so they can do what ever they want. I had a secondary line in Dec. so I requested fly DEC 24-26 and Jan1, as my first choice. And low and behold I did not get any of my choices. I never do. Christmas at home was great. TRUE STORY

Busboy
02-24-2010, 07:43 AM
BB, Beertini
I got the lowdown this morning from crew planning and that's not how it works (according to them).

The computer builds each line in seniority order and does not do the "one-pass through trying to give each person their first choice, etc." I thought that's how it works. The only wild card is how you format your inputs and what kind of "weighting" the inputs you provide are given.

In my case, it was a 48 hour buffer issue with more vacation I have at the start of the April bid month. Oops - should have slid it one day to the right. :(

But, to clarify - If you put in a simple input of 3 individual single trips as your first, second and third choice and you're legal for them, you'll get them. The guy right behind you with the same "top three" will get none of them. That's straight from the horse's mouth at crew planning an hour ago.

That's what I said. Kind of. I get more than just my first choice on my VTO request.

But like you say, the wild card is the "weighting" of your inputs. That is the where the scheduler's personal touch comes into play. If it was driven strictly by seniority, the schedulers would just sit back and watch the machine build each line in seniority order. No need for "weighting".

FliFast
02-24-2010, 07:57 AM
Slight thread hijack, but are you guys still on reduced caps-48 hours.

I ask because I see your 777s starting to appear along the Pac Rim.

Thx,
FF

FDXLAG
02-24-2010, 08:18 AM
Slight thread hijack, but are you guys still on reduced caps-48 hours.

I ask because I see your 777s starting to appear along the Pac Rim.

Thx,
FF


Slight reply. We have never been on reduced caps more like reduced minimums. Depending on the seat it has gotten as low as 55-57. New agreement yesterday it should increase gradually over the next several months to the low to mid 60s. Yes our CBA flights to PAC RIM are operating but they are not operating under ULF rules as our CBA only permits ULF rules (and payscale) for the A 380.

MX727
02-24-2010, 09:10 AM
No - he got it via secondary process.

But, what everyone is trying to tell you is that since your first choice was for those days off, they gave that to you, then moved on and at 7 VTOs below you, someone had your second choice as their first choice. Boom, the trip is gone for the next pass.

Busboy
02-24-2010, 09:47 AM
But, what everyone is trying to tell you is that since your first choice was for those days off, they gave that to you, then moved on and at 7 VTOs below you, someone had your second choice as their first choice. Boom, the trip is gone for the next pass.

Not how it works.

onetime
02-24-2010, 02:27 PM
The bottom 40%, MD-11 VTO, March got at least a few R Days. 40%....what is going on around here?

FliFast
02-24-2010, 09:45 PM
Slight show of appreciation LOL Thx Lag

FF

fdx727pilot
02-25-2010, 12:40 AM
The bottom 40%, MD-11 VTO, March got at least a few R Days. 40%....what is going on around here?

Same with 727 CA. Bottom 9 of 20 (45%) are all reserve.

DLax85
02-25-2010, 12:05 PM
The bottom 40%, MD-11 VTO, March got at least a few R Days. 40%....what is going on around here?

It's a way to add more Reserves at the last moment after the number of initial reserve lines in the bidpack have been reduced to water down the BLGs.

Since the VTOs are built after the Conflict/Input Window and View/Add Window closes they get a great look at how many folks are knocking out Reserve with vacation (...it's increased lately due to low R-day values) and how many folks are picking up trips before Open Time is released.

The bottom 50% VTOs have turned into Reserve lines --- and Reserve lines they more fully control. :(

Gunter
02-25-2010, 12:51 PM
2. Secondary Line Construction

a. A sufficient number of secondary lines shall be published to cover trips
anticipated to be dropped from regular lines and other open time that may
be available.

b. Secondary lines shall be published as blank lines.

c. Secondary lines shall be constructed in numerical order following the
processing of conflicts on regular lines, the assignment of trips for training
and bid period processing as described in Section 25.E. (below).

d. If a secondary line cannot reasonably be constructed entirely of trips, it
may be constructed of trips and reserve days (R-days). If a secondary line
cannot be constructed of trips and R-days, it shall be constructed as a
reserve line.

40% of VTO lines are all R days? This is not reasonable and is a CBA violation.

There should be more reserve lines and fewer Secondary lines.

What's to stop the company from doubling the number of VTO lines and further reducing the number of reserve lines? Certainly not their integrity.

pipe
02-25-2010, 01:53 PM
40% of VTO lines are all R days? This is not reasonable and is a CBA violation.

There should be more reserve lines and fewer Secondary lines.

What's to stop the company from doubling the number of VTO lines and further reducing the number of reserve lines? Certainly not their integrity.

This has been going on for a full year now. Why has everyone been so slow to catch on?

As one of the bottom 40% of the MD VTO's for the last year, I have been telling everyone who'll listen where this has was headed. I believe that our management's mindset is so screwed up that they think "Hey, you work for us, we'll tell you when, where, and for how long. Now shut up and color."

If they thought they could get away with 80% VTO they would. Why isn't this stuff tied more directly to the actual amount of vacation being taken in a given month? Isn't that the whole point of a VTO?

PIPE