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OnStep
03-08-2010, 09:34 PM
Any UPSers out there with info about union cards being sent to Managers? Saw a post on the Union web site that cards had been mailed to mgrs, but the posts were subsequently removed from the web board.


FrontSeat
03-09-2010, 03:17 AM
Saw the post myself last night, then it was gone,,,

Commando
03-09-2010, 07:59 AM
I heard at the sort the last week, that BT has told UPS management that he is going forward. This is one of the reasons UPS walked away from the Savings.

BM had UPS had a handshake agreement since 1996. This is why BM never followed through on his campaign promises. Once BT wouldn't kiss there butt on this issue, UPS decided to furlough. IMO.


757upspilot
03-09-2010, 08:45 AM
I heard at the sort the last week, that BT has told UPS management that he is going forward. This is one of the reasons UPS walked away from the Savings.

BM had UPS had a handshake agreement since 1996. This is why BM never followed through on his campaign promises. Once BT wouldn't kiss there butt on this issue, UPS decided to furlough. IMO.

IMO, you have the sequence backward. Cancel the MOU and furlough then the cards to Management.

Displaced Again
03-09-2010, 09:02 AM
I heard at the sort the last week, that BT has told UPS management that he is going forward. This is one of the reasons UPS walked away from the Savings.

Wrong!

UPS walked away from the savings because its not about the money...

I have it from a fairly reliable source that Management found out about it last night, they were just as surprised as everyone else. No threats, no promises. Maybe a last ditch effort to end the furlough.

It will be an interesting few weeks coming up...

DA

Tigerpilot1995
03-09-2010, 09:09 AM
Maybe a last ditch effort to end the furlough.

How is that? This is like raping their daughters. BT isn't going to back down on this issue and he shouldn't. There will be no trade off. I understand we will need more guys if they are working under out contract but UPS doesn't do stuff rationally. They will cut their noses off to spite their face and show us who is boss. I expect to be on the streets, actually starting to look forward to it.

Tigerpilot1995
03-09-2010, 09:10 AM
I have it from a fairly reliable source that Management found out about it last night, they were just as surprised as everyone else.
DA

A manager told me 2 weeks ago he had been told to expect this from someone on our side. I think some managers are plugged in better than others. The guys in ANC really seem plugged into the IPA, at least most.

Shaggy1970
03-09-2010, 09:11 AM
About time we settled this issue once and for all!

Displaced Again
03-09-2010, 09:16 AM
How is that?

Think of it this way: IMHO if the Managers are members of the union, and they want to furlough, and we have a J/A -Opentime ban, uh, how do the trips get covered that fall through the cracks?

Then you need to look at the last strike we endured, uh, who was flying during that strike? Oh ya, it was the Managers, and even if we had 50% compliance, that is a lot less stuff they can move, and hopefully the issue is resolved quicker.

Bottom Line: IMO it is a lot less likely UPS can furlough anyone with the Managers in the fold, time will tell...

DA

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 09:44 AM
Deleted for unity 100% IPA

Tigerpilot1995
03-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Think of it this way: IMHO if the Managers are members of the union, and they want to furlough, and we have a J/A -Opentime ban, uh, how do the trips get covered that fall through the cracks?

Then you need to look at the last strike we endured, uh, who was flying during that strike? Oh ya, it was the Managers, and even if we had 50% compliance, that is a lot less stuff they can move, and hopefully the issue is resolved quicker.

Bottom Line: IMO it is a lot less likely UPS can furlough anyone with the Managers in the fold, time will tell...

DA

Roger. One thought is that the seniority integration process will take some time. My wonder is that if they vote to join the union when do they start operating under our contract in terms of work rules? That is probably the determining factor to how much they mitigate a furlough, if at all.

NE, no chest thumping here. This is reality. The managers on property allow UPS to operate the airline with less pilots than if they were union guys operating under out contract.

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 10:46 AM
Deleted for Unity 100% IPA

FR8TFLYER
03-09-2010, 10:57 AM
I think the furloughees will be screwed if the managers come aboard. If we are out over 7 years the company is under no obligation to bring us back, we are truly hostages at that point. There are very few managers that I beleive are worthy of even being part of the IPA. Those that were former IPA don't deserve to come back!

LOCO GRINGO
03-09-2010, 11:03 AM
BT is going after the 180 FQM's regardless of the potential impact to the bottom 300 ie: longer furlough and or losing 180 numbers. Asked if he would trade the managers for a no furlough, stated he would listen to any offer from the company (I took it as no). This issue was pretty well addressed at the PANC teleconference last month if you can find the video. UPS has long range plans of a Shenzhen domicile, compounded with the possibility of losing seniority to the managers I am considering the very real possibility I may not be returning to UPS when recalled.

The Gringo..

767pilot
03-09-2010, 11:28 AM
Adding the 180 managers to the IPA list would not cause the company to go out and hire 180 new managers. The same people, or even some percentage of them, will be doing those same jobs. At some point they would come under our work rules and it might even take more than 180 people to do the same work. I don't see it as a 1 for 1 that will keep guys out on the street longer. Gonna be interesting around here

Naven
03-09-2010, 11:34 AM
But BT received so many votes. He is speaking for the majority of IPA pilots.:eek:

LOCO GRINGO
03-09-2010, 11:51 AM
Adding the 180 managers to the IPA list would not cause the company to go out and hire 180 new managers. The same people, or even some percentage of them, will be doing those same jobs. At some point they would come under our work rules and it might even take more than 180 people to do the same work. I don't see it as a 1 for 1 that will keep guys out on the street longer. Gonna be interesting around here

Not saying I agree or disagree with the EB's position on the FQM's. Just passing on cliff notes of what was discussed. BT was asked if he would pursue the FQM's even if it meant the possibility of extending the furlough and he said yes.

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 12:06 PM
Deleted for Unity 100% IPA

FR8TFLYER
03-09-2010, 12:08 PM
Face it, BT does not care about the furloughees when it comes to taking on the managers. Our job is of no concern to him.

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 12:17 PM
Deleted for Unity 100% IPA

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 12:25 PM
Deleted for unity 100% IPA

Capt TedStriker
03-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Night Eagle.....

(Your paraphrased words)...This whole moving backwards thing has been about preserving jobs for "2500"...

yeah... RIGHT?!! Sounds like you are taking the bait for this union busting 101 move by the company.

Name one other union that has done what IPA has for its members... The MOU I and MOU II are great examples of what a class act the IPA is.

How about when we, as a union, provided ratification bonus' for dead IPA members' families?

How about 2nd year pay? The list goes on....

The FQS (manglers) issue is independent to our clear overstaffing at the airline. UPS, rightly so, is trying to gain efficiencies to maximize shareholder value.... Look at the 1800 managers recently cut and the Airline Maintenance on the street. IPA was going down the road of providing innovative solutions. Too bad this wasn't in the cards. Its just not in the culture of UPS to work with their labor groups. At least you got another year out of the deal.

I am glad that we are getting tight as a company. I chose UPS over traditional airlines because the airline industry (as a business) is a broken model. Too many failed airlines in the past (TWA, Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am etc) have failed. Will UPS be around in 50 years.... You bet! And I plan on collecting a pension from them. I am not so sure if I was at a real "airline" this would be available.

LOCO GRINGO
03-09-2010, 12:47 PM
This is the way I see it in my limited Loco way. This mess is not about BT, the EB agenda, managers or the over sixty crowd. It's about an enviously profitable company deciding to shed pilots and mechanics because they can. Just because they can does not mean they should. The hardship this is putting on some of the junior guys who invested for the long haul and purchased homes in PANC is unbelievable, all from a company making billions..

Have to go now and look for my next dream job adiós!

UPSFO4LIFE
03-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Will UPS be around in 50 years.... You bet!

UPS will be around in 50 years, but will the airline??????;)

CactusCrew
03-09-2010, 01:04 PM
Night Eagle.....



BTW.... Isn't it ironic that many of the spartans are the same group that stepped up to the plate to collect their contract ratification "bonus" (read retro) even though on property only a year. And leather jackets to boot. No complaints then Night Eagle?!?

Not quite ... without referencing a seniority list I can safely say at least 200 of the 300 never saw a signing bonus or a leather jacket from UPS.

Quite ironic indeed ...

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 01:06 PM
Deleted for unity 100% IPA

Commando
03-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Don't for a Second think that "Horse Trading" has not been going on for years. Thank Goodness BM is out so we can put a stop to it. TN was no better.

BT is finally putting a stop to this. UPS and the EB have been talking about this since BT was elected. IMHO, BT said no more, and UPS decided to try this angle to get him to back off. It back fired. Also, why did BM never push the issue in all his years?? Please answer anyone.

But I do believe the EB is going after the FQM is the wrong fashion. The Card thing is weak. And maybe the EB wants to go this path knowing it will fail. The EB needs to bypass the Card's and go straight to the Labor Courts with the Dorsey ruling in hand. This is the only way for success. Why the EB is going the Card route is beyond me. Not Smart at all. Doomed to Fail and they know it. So why?

Airbum
03-09-2010, 02:07 PM
Night Eagle.....


BTW.... Isn't it ironic that many of the spartans are the same group that stepped up to the plate to collect their contract ratification "bonus" (read retro) even though on property only a year. And leather jackets to boot. No complaints then Night Eagle?!?


I agreed with many of your points but this one is off. The 300 crew members who are threatened with layoffs where hired after the this current contract was signed.

Tigerpilot1995
03-09-2010, 02:13 PM
UPS has long range plans of a Shenzhen domicile

Where did you see that? Speculation or fact?

UPSFO4LIFE
03-09-2010, 02:15 PM
Where did you see that? Speculation or fact?

Not sure, but long range and UPS do not belong in the same sentence!

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 02:32 PM
Where did you see that? Speculation or fact?

That was Loco Gringo's statement not mine I just messed up the quote. I did ask this question to SF who stated that UPS has not approached the IPA about any foreign domiciles.

757upspilot
03-09-2010, 03:22 PM
All this talk about cards. Teamsters, ALPA, who has seen that it is the IPA? Or it could be a new independent union started by the Managers who don't want to give up there Captain deal via seniority integration with us.:rolleyes: The managers (FQS) are afraid to have an Xmas party together because the company might think they are forming a union.

ThreeSides
03-09-2010, 03:27 PM
Saw the post myself last night, then it was gone,,,

Was it only a post that got edited, or did an entire thread get pulled down?

767pilot
03-09-2010, 03:29 PM
How important is extending recall rights or improving furlough language to the 2500 IPA'ers? How many of them will be willing to give something up during contract negotiations for the furloughees or for an international domicile language for the possibility of SZX?

Can you not give us a little credit? Why did we get an end rate of almost 150 an hour for second year guys when it didn't help any of us, or any of you? That was a rhetorical question. I know that some of you are heading for the doors but when it comes to 2016 and beyond, the panic is way to early

757upspilot
03-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Can you not give us a little credit? Why did we get an end rate of almost 150 an hour for second year guys when it didn't help any of us, or any of you? That was a rhetorical question. I know that some of you are heading for the doors but when it comes to 2016 and beyond, the panic is way to early

No credit can be given to the long time IPA pilots. It has to be the IPA's fault that they are getting laid off, it can't be UPS's fault.
:rolleyes:

767pilot
03-09-2010, 03:44 PM
No credit can be given to the long time IPA pilots. It has to be the IPA's fault that they are getting laid off, it can't be UPS's fault.
:rolleyes:

Love your comment about the managers XMAS party. Looks like these guys may be getting tired of the fuzzy end of the lollypop

Tigerpilot1995
03-09-2010, 03:50 PM
No credit can be given to the long time IPA pilots. It has to be the IPA's fault that they are getting laid off, it can't be UPS's fault.

Please remember, very importantly, that the majority of the 300 do NOT feel this way. The young AND the old have bad apples :)

ThreeSides
03-09-2010, 04:09 PM
Is the B&G crowd politely ignoring this? It's interesting to watch how the tenor of the forum changes with the politicians who are in office.

- "What elephant? I didn't see any elephant. There absolutely is NO ELEPHANT in this room!"
:eek:

757upspilot
03-09-2010, 04:21 PM
Please remember, very importantly, that the majority of the 300 do NOT feel this way. The young AND the old have bad apples :)
I know this, which resulted in my participation in the MOU's and the current contractual open time and ja activity and the placing of training and vacation on days on. The bad apples stand out and are vocal and the junior ones have a detrimental impact on the efforts of the majority. It has been noted that a JA attempt went all the way to the #1 on fleet who also happens to be #1 on the overall list.

757upspilot
03-09-2010, 04:23 PM
Love your comment about the managers XMAS party. Looks like these guys may be getting tired of the fuzzy end of the lollypop
This comment came from a long time FQS who tried to put an Xmas party together in SDF.

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 04:31 PM
No credit can be given to the long time IPA pilots. It has to be the IPA's fault that they are getting laid off, it can't be UPS's fault.
:rolleyes:

I never once said any of this is any IPAers fault. I only blame UPS for making a business decision that will hurt all of our families one way or another. 100% IPA

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Deleted for unity 100% IPA

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Can you not give us a little credit? Why did we get an end rate of almost 150 an hour for second year guys when it didn't help any of us, or any of you? That was a rhetorical question. I know that some of you are heading for the doors but when it comes to 2016 and beyond, the panic is way to early

I give all IPA'ers young and old credit for how far the IPA has come.
100% IPA

Night Eagle
03-09-2010, 05:20 PM
Please remember, very importantly, that the majority of the 300 do NOT feel this way. The young AND the old have bad apples :)

Ouch! It hurts under the bus Tigerpilot1995 good arm though!;)100% IPA

767pilot
03-09-2010, 05:26 PM
It was the collective "us". You're right that we have come a long way and I'd like to think that it isn't as much of a majority rule situation as it is a one for all and all for one type. Just remember that the #1 seniority guy on our list had nothing to immediately gain by turning down a JA yesterday

freightretriever
03-09-2010, 05:40 PM
It's becoming more evident everyday that this isn't going to end well..........7 years is looking shorter every day.

Naven
03-09-2010, 07:07 PM
I give all IPA'ers young and old credit for how far the IPA has come.
100% IPA
Come on. We talk a good game but in reality 30% of us couldn't even be bothered to participate in the MOU and 20% participated minimally. Now we have a President elected with 33% of the vote fulfilling his promise of attempting to bring over the FQS's and offering date of hire. Sorry we did not vote on that. Keeping one guy on the street one day longer than he should be to integrate the supervisors is BS.

Naven
03-09-2010, 07:08 PM
It was the collective "us". You're right that we have come a long way and I'd like to think that it isn't as much of a majority rule situation as it is a one for all and all for one type. Just remember that the #1 seniority guy on our list had nothing to immediately gain by turning down a JA yesterday
Except his self respect.

CheyDogFlies
03-09-2010, 07:36 PM
BTW.... Isn't it ironic that many of the spartans are the same group that stepped up to the plate to collect their contract ratification "bonus" (read retro) even though on property only a year.

ZERO of the Spartans were legal to vote on that bonus, FYI. Nice hand grenade, though...

RedTailNoMore
03-09-2010, 08:16 PM
Come on. We talk a good game but in reality 30% of us couldn't even be bothered to participate in the MOU and 20% participated minimally. Now we have a President elected with 33% of the vote fulfilling his promise of attempting to bring over the FQS's and offering date of hire. Sorry we did not vote on that. Keeping one guy on the street one day longer than he should be to integrate the supervisors is BS.

100% IPA but Naven is 100% correct. I left a good job and a drive to work voluntarily because I truly believed that UPS was the best place for my family to be.

I can take a furlough to protect to our contract, in fact I prefer it to giving money to billionaires, but the thought that my wife and kids may be on the street to protect the date of hire for "managers", many of whom despise the working union pilot, makes me sick.

It going to be an interesting year with a lot of twists and turns....at the end, i will be 100% something......that is for sure. I hope its 100% IPA.

SaltyDog
03-09-2010, 08:34 PM
... The EB needs to bypass the Card's and go straight to the Labor Courts with the Dorsey ruling in hand. This is the only way for success. Why the EB is going the Card route is beyond me. Not Smart at all. Doomed to Fail and they know it. So why?

A multistep solution, Perhaps because if they agree then the issue is quickly and more inexpensively resolved and we move to the next step. 1800 groundside management cuts, IPA furloughs, ATL has to be shopping the airline subsidiary for more savings........

Come on. We talk a good game but in reality 30% of us couldn't even be bothered to participate in the MOU and 20% participated minimally. Now we have a President elected with 33% of the vote fulfilling his promise of attempting to bring over the FQS's and offering date of hire. Sorry we did not vote on that. Keeping one guy on the street one day longer than he should be to integrate the supervisors is BS.

Valid, however, like 1997 Teamsters strike, 100% came along when required, not all voluntary, but nonetheless, all held the line when it came to the gut check. Believe the RIF bid will grab the attention of most of the remaining 28% to an engaged status.

It's becoming more evident everyday that this isn't going to end well..........7 years is looking shorter every day.

On the flipside, FedEx Alpa just signed an agreement to exit the 4a2b language. It isn't because Fred is playing nice. Volumes are stabilized. Demand is slowly and steadily growing. Check the market reports of our competitors and UPS own financials. 7 years is not supported by current metrics. It is supported by biased metrics and agendas that support fear and distrust of the IPA.

Freightpuppy
03-09-2010, 10:01 PM
Come on. We talk a good game but in reality 30% of us couldn't even be bothered to participate in the MOU and 20% participated minimally. Now we have a President elected with 33% of the vote fulfilling his promise of attempting to bring over the FQS's and offering date of hire. Sorry we did not vote on that. Keeping one guy on the street one day longer than he should be to integrate the supervisors is BS.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we vote on our opinion of bringing the FQMs on board and didn't it say something about integration by DOH? I could just be making all of this up in my head (I'm pregnant again and that makes me a big airhead) but I am remembering it that way. :confused:

crash84
03-09-2010, 10:36 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we vote on our opinion of bringing the FQMs on board and didn't it say something about integration by DOH? I could just be making all of this up in my head (I'm pregnant again and that makes me a big airhead) but I am remembering it that way. :confused:

Congratulations FP!

Displaced Again
03-10-2010, 05:01 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we vote on our opinion of bringing the FQMs on board and didn't it say something about integration by DOH? I could just be making all of this up in my head (I'm pregnant again and that makes me a big airhead) but I am remembering it that way. :confused:

It all started Monday September 24, 2007 and several iterations of it have occured since then but the result is the same. And BTW it was the BM administration that started the ball rolling..........




EB STATEMENT ON STRAW POLL
“Our core unity has never been higher.” That statement came today from the IPA Executive Board after announcing the results of the Straw Poll on the possibility of organizing UPS’ flight qualified supervisors. An unprecedented 80.4% of the eligible IPA membership participated in the poll. Of that number, 1, 687 members, or 79%, expressed their support for moving forward on the issue while adopting the principle of a fair and equitable integration of the seniority list based on date of hire. On that same issue, 438 members, or 20.5% opposed moving forward.

DA

Archie Bunker
03-10-2010, 07:52 AM
It all started Monday September 24, 2007 and several iterations of it have occured since then but the result is the same. And BTW it was the BM administration that started the ball rolling..........




EB STATEMENT ON STRAW POLL
“Our core unity has never been higher.” That statement came today from the IPA Executive Board after announcing the results of the Straw Poll on the possibility of organizing UPS’ flight qualified supervisors. An unprecedented 80.4% of the eligible IPA membership participated in the poll. Of that number, 1, 687 members, or 79%, expressed their support for moving forward on the issue while adopting the principle of a fair and equitable integration of the seniority list based on date of hire. On that same issue, 438 members, or 20.5% opposed moving forward.

DA

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the straw poll under BM got anything officially "rolling". I thought that the 79% figure wasn't enough to start the process.

It was Amendment 1 in the last election (Thrush election) that allowed the EB to move forward and try to integrate these FQS guys onto our seniority list. If memory serves me correct, 84% voted in favor of this amendment.

My question is: if this issue was so darn important to the membership, why wasn't this attempted YEARS ago? I've only been here a little over 3 years, so I'm not privy to all the politics that went on between the EB and UPS management, but my experience with previous airline unions tells me that SOMETHING was going on between the two concerning this issue. Why did it take until 2010 for this to move forward? Anyone care to comment?

Naven
03-10-2010, 07:59 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the straw poll under BM got anything officially "rolling". I thought that the 79% figure wasn't enough to start the process.

It was Amendment 1 in the last election (Thrush election) that allowed the EB to move forward and try to integrate these FQS guys onto our seniority list. If memory serves me correct, 84% voted in favor of this amendment.

My question is: if this issue was so darn important to the membership, why wasn't this attempted YEARS ago? I've only been here a little over 3 years, so I'm not privy to all the politics that went on between the EB and UPS management, but my experience with previous airline unions tells me that SOMETHING was going on between the two concerning this issue. Why did it take until 2010 for this to move forward? Anyone care to comment?
I can't find the text of the amendment. I know it passed with 84% but I don't remember it saying we would try to integrate the managers by date of hire. The straw poll was something different and at a different time 2007 not late 2009.

UPSFO4LIFE
03-10-2010, 08:06 AM
WOW, just got an in-the-middle of the morning update e mail from BT about the FQS issue. Seems UPS is having a must attend meeting with all the FQS off campus. Would love to be a fly on the wall in that room. How many threats do you think will come from that meeting?

Buck92
03-10-2010, 08:50 AM
I actually thought the language of the amendment in question allowed only for the EB to "move forward" on bringing the FQMs onboard. I did NOT think the EB could determine terms of integration (seniority list) on their own without a vote. I'm calling shennanigans until Salty or someone can produce language that states otherwise...

ThreeSides
03-10-2010, 09:12 AM
My question is: if this issue was so darn important to the membership, why wasn't this attempted YEARS ago? I've only been here a little over 3 years, so I'm not privy to all the politics that went on between the EB and UPS management, but my experience with previous airline unions tells me that SOMETHING was going on between the two concerning this issue. Why did it take until 2010 for this to move forward? Anyone care to comment?

What makes you think that it wasn't attempted years ago?? The Miller administrations weren't exactly known for their transparency.

ThreeSides
03-10-2010, 09:16 AM
I did NOT think the EB could determine terms of integration (seniority list) on their own without a vote. I'm calling shennanigans until Salty or someone can produce language that states otherwise...

Umm... I think the NMB determines the terms of integration assuming this gets that far. Our C&B vote was mainly a message.

Naven
03-10-2010, 09:31 AM
Umm... I think the NMB determines the terms of integration assuming this gets that far. Our C&B vote was mainly a message.
Well we are offering date of hire. Do you really think the NMB would do anything worse than that. Besides I don't think the NMB has anything to do with how the two lists would be integrated anyway.

Night_Hawk
03-10-2010, 09:53 AM
I don't see iAt some point they would come under our work rules and it might even take more than 180 people to do the same work.

I agree w/ the fact that they are more flexible when it comes to flying. But, would UPS let them continue to do their "paper work." duties.
Don't we always say that they really don't do anything but sit as super reserves?
SO, my question is do they actually do 180 jobs worth of training and flying? vs. their time spent on conference calls and writing MRBs.

concerned, we better not screw this up,

N-H

Archie Bunker
03-10-2010, 11:38 AM
I actually thought the language of the amendment in question allowed only for the EB to "move forward" on bringing the FQMs onboard. I did NOT think the EB could determine terms of integration (seniority list) on their own without a vote. I'm calling shennanigans until Salty or someone can produce language that states otherwise...

I can't find the verbiage anywhere. I tossed all of that election paraphernalia months ago. I just checked Ballotpoint, and it only lists the results of the election. Maybe it's hidden somewhere on the IPA website...I haven't tried there yet.

Archie Bunker
03-10-2010, 11:43 AM
What makes you think that it wasn't attempted years ago?? The Miller administrations weren't exactly known for their transparency.

The fact is...I don't know if it was attempted years ago. That's why I'm asking. If not, why not?

I'm curious if BM cut some side deal with the company agreeing not to attempt integration of the FQS' onto our seniority list. Do any of the 88'ers on here know the deal?

Freightpuppy
03-10-2010, 12:06 PM
Congratulations FP!

Thanks! We are very very excited (not looking forward to the first couple months when you are up every 2-3 hours.....LOL)! :D

767pilot
03-10-2010, 01:27 PM
Umm... I think the NMB determines the terms of integration assuming this gets that far. Our C&B vote was mainly a message.

I don't recall any time where they have done that. It's not one of their duties. Worst case, integrations are done by arbitrators if the two sides can not agree, or the swingline method when one group has a particular advantage over another

As for the vote being a message...I believe a similar "send a message" vote got th eball rolling for the Iraq war

767pilot
03-10-2010, 01:28 PM
SO, my question is do they actually do 180 jobs worth of training and flying? vs. their time spent on conference calls and writing MRBs.

concerned, we better not screw this up,

N-H

good questions and I think that they have been covered pretty well on the bar and grill

brownie
03-10-2010, 03:01 PM
good questions and I think that they have been covered pretty well on the bar and grill

Bar and grill now that's one reliable source..:rolleyes:;)

brownie
03-10-2010, 03:04 PM
Thanks! We are very very excited (not looking forward to the first couple months when you are up every 2-3 hours.....LOL)! :D

FP, im going to refrain from rattling your cage until the baby is out. I luv babies and respect pregnant moms so hurry up and deflate because it's getting boring.:D

767pilot
03-10-2010, 03:44 PM
Bar and grill now that's one reliable source..:rolleyes:;)

You get better information on something like that from a bunch of people hiding behind fake names?

Freightpuppy
03-10-2010, 03:55 PM
FP, im going to refrain from rattling your cage until the baby is out. I luv babies and respect pregnant moms so hurry up and deflate because it's getting boring.:D

Ha ha...sorry, I have a little while to go. Plus you have to take into account the first few months afterward cuz I'll probably be MIA trying to get some sleep.

brownie
03-10-2010, 04:41 PM
Ha ha...sorry, I have a little while to go. Plus you have to take into account the first few months afterward cuz I'll probably be MIA trying to get some sleep.

Nope can't wait that long, you become fare game as soon as he/she is out of the oven. Specially if you're miami then its even better now you're within reach.:D

Freightpuppy
03-10-2010, 06:04 PM
No no no.....MIA (missing in action) not IN MIA. :p

J Dawg
03-10-2010, 06:07 PM
WOW, just got an in-the-middle of the morning update e mail from BT about the FQS issue. Seems UPS is having a must attend meeting with all the FQS off campus. Would love to be a fly on the wall in that room. How many threats do you think will come from that meeting?

On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if they offered some perks the FQSs would not refuse in order to turn us down (things like a 20% raise, etc).

767pilot
03-10-2010, 06:15 PM
I'd have to guess that the threats will sound like this:
a) How can you trust those guys with the date of hire issue? They are going to trick you
b) We are furloughing them because we have too many, but we're keeping you because you're our managers. If you wanna be with them, we're going to cut you loose. maybe even instead of them

Both are hollow threats

highsky
03-10-2010, 08:22 PM
IMHO if the Managers are members of the union, and they want to furlough, and we have a J/A -Opentime ban, uh, how do the trips get covered that fall through the cracks?
Perhaps there wouldn't be too many trips falling through the cracks with 180 more FQMs in the IPA, even if they furlough the 300.

highsky
03-10-2010, 09:15 PM
UPS, rightly so, is trying to gain efficiencies to maximize shareholder value.... Look at the 1800 managers recently cut and the Airline Maintenance on the street.

I am glad that we are getting tight as a company.
Sure, let's all tighten up as a company. Hey, its just a bunch of managers, mechanics, and 300 junior IPA families losing their livelihoods, right?

Or do you just advocate "getting tight as a company" as long as it doesn't affect YOUR pay or Quality of Life?

Sans FedEx, virtually every other airline pilot flies a full 75+ hours of block every month to earn his guarantee...not the 40 hours or less of block most of us fly to earn ours. Should we see if we can tighten up that scheduling inefficiency too?

And for Heaven's sake, let's eliminate those inefficient 72 hour layovers in crappy places like Cologne, Hong Kong, and Sydney. What's wrong with just min crew rest? The shareholders certainly ought not to be paying us to just sit around.

Or how about the 2 to 3 times pay you're getting compared to other airline pilots doing the same job? Would you like to volunteer to tighten things up with a 50% pay cut for yourself? Perhaps we should just dump the contract altogether and work for Minimum Wage, while flying to maximum FAR duty and time limits. That would certainly improve shareholder returns.

Section Eight
03-11-2010, 12:24 AM
100% IPA but Naven is 100% correct. I left a good job and a drive to work voluntarily because I truly believed that UPS was the best place for my family to be.

I can take a furlough to protect to our contract, in fact I prefer it to giving money to billionaires, but the thought that my wife and kids may be on the street to protect the date of hire for "managers", many of whom despise the working union pilot, makes me sick.

It going to be an interesting year with a lot of twists and turns....at the end, i will be 100% something......that is for sure. I hope its 100% IPA.

Yeah ok, here it goes. First I really don't care for the administration and they know it, so no news there. So we integrate these guys, then what. I personally think that I will be screwed that much more, but BT doesn't really give a rats ass about me, but I am ok with that. Lets talk about one thing that no one has touched on yet.

You bring these guys into the fold, I am on the street with 299 others and then you still have an JA/OT ban. Great:cool: Now, what are we currently doing about the 1% of our own that are picking it up NOW? I'll tell you what: NADA, NOTHING, ZIP. So now we take the FQS's that we have granted all of the protections of the IPA while we're all out and guess what? That 1% that was picking up open time just increased by 180 pilots.

What makes anyone think, that these newly anointed IPA members will hold fast on a JA/OT ban? Sure some will, but most will not. Now what, we can't even do #$*% to the guys that are already here and preach IPA unity, now you expect these guys too? Well if you believe that have I got some real estate for you.....

I could go on, but I won't. This was not thought out very well, and most are so busy kissing the ring that we have forgotten about 300 families. But what do I know, I just used to work here.

I speak for MYSELF, not any other member of the "group" so don't take aim at them.

Airbum
03-11-2010, 04:32 AM
Yeah ok, here it goes. First I really don't care for the administration and they know it, so no news there. So we integrate these guys, then what. I personally think that I will be screwed that much more, but BT doesn't really give a rats ass about me, but I am ok with that. Lets talk about one thing that no one has touched on yet.

You bring these guys into the fold, I am on the street with 299 others and then you still have an JA/OT ban. Great:cool: Now, what are we currently doing about the 1% of our own that are picking it up NOW? I'll tell you what: NADA, NOTHING, ZIP. So now we take the FQS's that we have granted all of the protections of the IPA while we're all out and guess what? That 1% that was picking up open time just increased by 180 pilots.


What makes anyone think, that these newly anointed IPA members will hold fast on a JA/OT ban? Sure some will, but most will not. Now what, we can't even do #$*% to the guys that are already here and preach IPA unity, now you expect these guys too? Well if you believe that have I got some real estate for you.....

I could go on, but I won't. This was not thought out very well, and most are so busy kissing the ring that we have forgotten about 300 families. But what do I know, I just used to work here.

I speak for MYSELF, not any other member of the "group" so don't take aim at them.

Of course not all of the FQS would honor a JA/OT ban. If just 1/2 of them did it would be a incredible improvement over what we have now. BTW I doubt the integration of any FQS would be complete before a couple of years have passed.

How would you punish IPA members who do not follow the JA/OT guidelines? Keep in mind anti harresment laws and company polices.

Getting ride of our non union airline will be beneficial for all of us. As it seems you where not at UPS for any of the contract negotiations you have not seen how the non union pilots are used against the pilot group. In the perfect world we get all the jobs and none of the non union pilots ..... its not a perfect world. If it was i wouldn't have this beer gut.

Lots of more moves left to be made in this game I am sure.

Toast1927
03-11-2010, 05:20 AM
"How would you punish IPA members who do not follow the JA/OT guidelines? Keep in mind anti harassment laws and company polices."


I would think that if someone picks up open-time or JA they are in violation of the contract.

If you are in violation of the contract you should no longer be a member in good standing with the union.

I think once you are no longer a member in good standing UPS could fire you.

CactusCrew
03-11-2010, 05:25 AM
"How would you punish IPA members who do not follow the JA/OT guidelines? Keep in mind anti harassment laws and company polices."


I would think that if someone picks up open-time or JA they are in violation of the contract.

If you are in violation of the contract you should no longer be a member in good standing with the union.

I think once you are no longer a member in good standing UPS could fire you.

It will never go that far ...

Toast1927
03-11-2010, 05:57 AM
It will never go that far ...


Of course not...god forbid we **** off someone who needs to make a boat payment.

I also think that we need to have another union constitutional amendment vote. This one would state that unless you are on a NB status it is mandatory to vote in ALL union business. If a member decides not to vote then they will get a $500 special vote assessment that would be put into either the IPA charity fund or an IPA Pilot catastrophic fund.

Lastly, to try to bring this thread back around, anyone know what happened at the FQS come to Hitler meeting?

Sideshow Bob
03-11-2010, 06:53 AM
Of course not all of the FQS would honor a JA/OT ban. If just 1/2 of them did it would be a incredible improvement over what we have now. BTW I doubt the integration of any FQS would be complete before a couple of years have passed.

How would you punish IPA members who do not follow the JA/OT guidelines? Keep in mind anti harresment laws and company polices.

Getting ride of our non union airline will be beneficial for all of us. As it seems you where not at UPS for any of the contract negotiations you have not seen how the non union pilots are used against the pilot group. In the perfect world we get all the jobs and none of the non union pilots ..... its not a perfect world. If it was i wouldn't have this beer gut.

Lots of more moves left to be made in this game I am sure.

I do understand the emotional or fight/flight response, but after all that's happened the last couple of months I would have thought most would have moved onto the next stages...

When I got furloughed way back when, I blamed the company. Only once ALPA not only did absolutely NOTHING to help us AND actually did overt harm did I blame the union along with the company who made the stupid decision in the first place. And even then, that company was losing 100's of millions. But at some point, one would think you'd see that this isn't checkers, it's chess.

While some need as many people to blame as possible for every malady in life, this is starting to get really, really old.

FR8TFLYER
03-11-2010, 08:16 AM
Yeah ok, here it goes. First I really don't care for the administration and they know it, so no news there. So we integrate these guys, then what. I personally think that I will be screwed that much more, but BT doesn't really give a rats ass about me, but I am ok with that. Lets talk about one thing that no one has touched on yet.

You bring these guys into the fold, I am on the street with 299 others and then you still have an JA/OT ban. Great:cool: Now, what are we currently doing about the 1% of our own that are picking it up NOW? I'll tell you what: NADA, NOTHING, ZIP. So now we take the FQS's that we have granted all of the protections of the IPA while we're all out and guess what? That 1% that was picking up open time just increased by 180 pilots.

What makes anyone think, that these newly anointed IPA members will hold fast on a JA/OT ban? Sure some will, but most will not. Now what, we can't even do #$*% to the guys that are already here and preach IPA unity, now you expect these guys too? Well if you believe that have I got some real estate for you.....

I could go on, but I won't. This was not thought out very well, and most are so busy kissing the ring that we have forgotten about 300 families. But what do I know, I just used to work here.

I speak for MYSELF, not any other member of the "group" so don't take aim at them.

8-

I think you are pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. BT is going to do what he wants regardless of the bottom 300. With the exception of getting these guys 2 extra weeks I have not heard of any progress being made with help (medical/cobra) for the guys hitting the street. In fact I have not heard of anything furlough related at all come from the EB, ****?

Waborita
03-11-2010, 08:58 AM
I sure wish I could make the ANC GMM tomorrow,but I can not. I would bet it is going to be a jungle there tomorrow considering the manager announcement. The video conference meeting I did attend was very heated completely different from the Looneyville meeting (I wonder why). Anyone who is on reserve or lives in ANC and makes the GMM please post notes here Friday thanks.

turkeydrvr
03-11-2010, 09:08 AM
8 and fr8,
Just because you have an opinion doesn't entitle you to bash the people that are trying to help you on a public forum. You are naive to believe the union is doing anything but try to help. You may be getting kicked in the nuts, but we are all taking it in the a$$. The best way through this is to remain together. Just because you haven't seen, or you haven't heard, does not mean that it is not happening. It is disingenuous of you to suggest 300 families are forgotten. I hope you can make your way through your anger and see that. What benefit do you expect otherwise?

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 09:35 AM
Ok, at the risk of being strung out on a noose.....

FOR PETE'S SAKE PEOPLE! I know there are no pilot jobs out there to be had but you have to take responsibility for yourselves! If that means your wife gets a job flipping burgers or 2 and so do you then so be it! I believe the union is doing everything they can for everyone but you are responsible for YOU and your family, not everyone else. The union (or anyone else in the pilot group) doesn't have to do jack! I'm not on the chopping block (yet!) but if I was I wouldn't be expecting the union to pay for my medical or anything! I would be out there finding whatever job I could and putting things in place to prepare for MYSELF! Christ people...be mad at whoever you want but it's your own responsibility to put food on your own table!

SaltyDog
03-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Yeah ok, here it goes. First I really don't care for the administration and they know it, so no news there. So we integrate these guys, then what. I personally think that I will be screwed that much more, but BT doesn't really give a rats ass about me, but I am ok with that. Lets talk about one thing that no one has touched on yet.

You bring these guys into the fold, I am on the street with 299 others and then you still have an JA/OT ban. Great:cool: Now, what are we currently doing about the 1% of our own that are picking it up NOW? I'll tell you what: NADA, NOTHING, ZIP. So now we take the FQS's that we have granted all of the protections of the IPA while we're all out and guess what? That 1% that was picking up open time just increased by 180 pilots.

What makes anyone think, that these newly anointed IPA members will hold fast on a JA/OT ban? Sure some will, but most will not. Now what, we can't even do #$*% to the guys that are already here and preach IPA unity, now you expect these guys too? Well if you believe that have I got some real estate for you.....

I could go on, but I won't. This was not thought out very well, and most are so busy kissing the ring that we have forgotten about 300 families. But what do I know, I just used to work here.

I speak for MYSELF, not any other member of the "group" so don't take aim at them.

The thinking is pretty well thought out IMO, but don't think you have a good timeline analysis.

1. The furlough UPS decided to execute, was aimed at taking advantage of the $13 million shortfall. UPS is overplaying that hand. Yes, furloughs will happen because UPS must now save face. Again, check the market. The naysayers clearly are not studying the financials. UPS cannot sustain a long furlough if the market remains stabilized. UPS is staffing for a 4th QTR 2008 scenario and it doesn't look like that today.

2. Addressing the 20 year wait on the airline in an airline was finally precipitated by UPS action. A union cannot sit by and let furloughed union pilots be replaced by non union pilots. What part did the union fail to think through?????

3. Offering union job protection is a separate track from the business realities. You make a serious error in assuming the two events are perfectly aligned. They are not aligned any longer. They are going to track separately on the merits of each issue. One scenario is that the final integration will occur after the furlough has ended or everyone recalled. Furlough is ultimately more business related and FQS integration is power and legal related.

4. Your mockery of what the IPA is doing for the 300 plays well for management. It isn't always clean and pretty, but rest assured, much effort is being made to protect the junior 300. Whine and whistle is OK by me if it makes you feel better, but some facts may just give you a more grounded reference point.

CactusCrew
03-11-2010, 10:06 AM
Ok, at the risk of being strung out on a noose.....

FOR PETE'S SAKE PEOPLE! I know there are no pilot jobs out there to be had but you have to take responsibility for yourselves! If that means your wife gets a job flipping burgers or 2 and so do you then so be it! I believe the union is doing everything they can for everyone but you are responsible for YOU and your family, not everyone else. The union (or anyone else in the pilot group) doesn't have to do jack! I'm not on the chopping block (yet!) but if I was I wouldn't be expecting the union to pay for my medical or anything! I would be out there finding whatever job I could and putting things in place to prepare for MYSELF! Christ people...be mad at whoever you want but it's your own responsibility to put food on your own table!

I'll start the noose, just won't tighten it ...

First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?

And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.

Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...

Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.

You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.

Been there and done that ....

say that again
03-11-2010, 10:12 AM
While some need as many people to blame as possible for every malady in life, this is starting to get really, really old.
Now you're starting to sound like me! <G>

OnStep
03-11-2010, 10:12 AM
Ok, at the risk of being strung out on a noose.....

FOR PETE'S SAKE PEOPLE! I know there are no pilot jobs out there to be had but you have to take responsibility for yourselves! If that means your wife gets a job flipping burgers or 2 and so do you then so be it! I believe the union is doing everything they can for everyone but you are responsible for YOU and your family, not everyone else. The union (or anyone else in the pilot group) doesn't have to do jack! I'm not on the chopping block (yet!) but if I was I wouldn't be expecting the union to pay for my medical or anything! I would be out there finding whatever job I could and putting things in place to prepare for MYSELF! Christ people...be mad at whoever you want but it's your own responsibility to put food on your own table!
interesting post for somebody who I seem to remember has been suckling off of the mutual aid teat since having a kid, I suppose you will be latched back on when the second one is born!!

Swedish Blender
03-11-2010, 10:34 AM
So what says UPS will give the current FQS jobs to the IPA even if they manglers send in enough cards? Sure you can join the IPA, have fun on the line and we'll just hire a new bunch of managers.

I haven't seen anything about getting the positions to be the same craft and class, just getting the managers. Needless to say, I don't care for it until some one explains how we'll get the jobs.

Lester Burnham
03-11-2010, 10:48 AM
I think a lot of the frustration coming out is from a lack of communication. BT ran for President on the platform of playing hardball against the company. His idea was to tell the company to shove it and to "take care of our own." Well, UPS turned downed the MOU savings and we all know where we stand today.

BT ran with the idea that the IPA would provide COBRA coverage and a stipend of up to $3000/month for furloughees. I'm not saying this should or shouldn't happen, but the President of the IPA ran and won on this idea (among others). We've now had over a month since the furlough notices went out, and pretty much silence from the EB on this other than saying they were looking into it. I know there are lots of things going on behind the scenes, but the folks about to hit the street are hearing nothing but crickets.

I was not a fan of BT when he ran, but I'm pleased with his performance so far. There are a few people on here and the B&G who are venting and that shouldn't be suprising. As a future furloughee, I don't expect anything from the IPA. However, if IPA members want to say they take care of their own, it starts with providing COBRA coverage for furloughees. That's not entitlement, just a reasonable expectation after what we've been hearing from the pilot group. If there is no intention of providing any benefits, then the IPA President shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. I think some of the people ****ing and moaning on both the top and bottom of the list is juvenile. That goes for the junior guys complaining about getting sold out and it also applies to the senior moron who doesn't even realize that none of the 300 were here for contract ratification and got no signing bonus.

Bottom line, it's a crappy situation that we're in, but it's not the IPA's fault. I have faith that the EB will do what's in the best interest of the entire group, but it sure would help to have a little more communication on what, if any, assistance will be offered.

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 10:49 AM
I'll start the noose, just won't tighten it ...

First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?

And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.

Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...

Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.

You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.

Been there and done that ....

I agree with you on all these points but I some on here act like it's their entitlement to get medical/COBRA coverage help etc. I'm all for helping people out but at the end of the day, it's YOUR responsibility to take care of your family. You cannot depend on someone else helping you out. If they do, great, but if they don't well, it's up to YOU (and mother/father of your children) to feed your family. I paid for COBRA while out on personal leave....noone offered to help me pay that while I was out not getting paid. Should I be crying about that? For the record, I'm all for helping out the furloughees and I will pay into whatever fund we set up.

No, I have never been furloughed but I've been around long enough to see that furloughs happen at most airlines. Hopefully you are not caught up in that wave but if you are, you need to be prepared. I was lucky that early in my flying career, one of my CFIs advised me against getting an aviation degree. I got a degree in something else that I can fall back on. I realize that not everyone was lucky enough to get that kind of advice but if you've been furloughed (ESPECIALLY if you've been furloughed) or seen it happen to other people, maybe that should be a wake up call that you cannot just depend on this career alone to support a family. Maybe the wife should be getting a degree herself while times are good just in case. Maybe you should save a little more money when times are good just in case. Maybe you should make those extra mortgage payments when you can just in case. I'm just saying that ultimately you should expect nothing from anyone because you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. There is nothing more comforting for me personally than knowing that if UPS were to furlough 500 pilots and I'm one of them....no big deal. I can get another job and I don't need to sell my house because it's almost paid off. Were there sacrifices I made to be in that situation? Yes....we don't own new cars, never had a flat screen TV, only take one small vacation a year, etc. Is it worth it for my sanity and security? Hell yes! If you want to be mad at me for saying it like it is, fine but I know that in the end, it's MY responsibility to feed my family.

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 10:53 AM
interesting post for somebody who I seem to remember has been suckling off of the mutual aid teat since having a kid, I suppose you will be latched back on when the second one is born!!

Oh yeah, and I was able to recover from my horrible (one that I could have died from and left my child without a mother) medical problem and come back to work. I'm well now. Thanks for asking.

Also, if I wasn't able to "suck off the mutual aid teat" because it wasn't there, I would be fine too. I wouldn't be expecting everyone else to bail me out.

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 10:58 AM
However, if IPA members want to say they take care of their own, it starts with providing COBRA coverage for furloughees. That's not entitlement, just a reasonable expectation after what we've been hearing from the pilot group. If there is no intention of providing any benefits, then the IPA President shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

Can't argue with that.

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 11:02 AM
TK posted something about a furlough relief program being finalized on the B&G so some of y'all can relax now.

UPSCAPT
03-11-2010, 11:29 AM
I actually thought the language of the amendment in question allowed only for the EB to "move forward" on bringing the FQMs onboard. I did NOT think the EB could determine terms of integration (seniority list) on their own without a vote. I'm calling shennanigans until Salty or someone can produce language that states otherwise...

Buck, you are correct. The membership has not been provided the necessary requirement of a vote. BM didn't want to buy a building with a vote of the membership. This issue is much bigger with deeper and longer lasting consequences.

This is a quote from the EB last fall: Proposed Amendment #1 removes the current C&B barrier to organizing UPS Flight Qualified Supervisors. The amendment would allow the Executive Board to move forward on this issue at a time of the Board’s choosing without the constraint of a constitutional provision that is contrary to this goal.

This card issue was rushed and not very well thought out. I have heard from many FQS' they they will not vote because there are too many unknowns. This appears to be an ill timed bomb thrown by this "shoot, aim" EB of 2010. Leadership takes courage, of which there is a vacuum at the marble palace.

Waborita
03-11-2010, 11:32 AM
Freightpuppy,

First I am glad you recovered from your medical complication and you are well.

I am speaking for myself not the other 299 so don't punish others for my opinions and observations. The majority of the 300 don't want or expect anything from the IPA we also never wanted the contract opened.

Cobra for furloughees is very standard even at ALPA and regional airlines like the one I came from. The current IPA president who was against the MOU but for other options is now in office so some are wondering about the campaign promises. When asked at the last ANC meeting they said it was noted and would look into it. I was at the ANC meeting a couple of weeks ago and it was very heated some actually walked out. Besides the technical dificulties BT bed side manner was not good. That being said I would rather have a horrible communicator and the best surgeon and I think BT is doing well.

Some very important stuff to those of us getting furloughed in 2 months are cobra benfits possibly being paid, but more important resignation of our seniority for other flying jobs over seas, Also is the lack of furlough recall language in the current contract. I feel that this will be a long furlough (many disagree and some still think it won't happen) and all the foreign contracts are 3-5 years and almost all have trainng bonds that if broken we have to pay sometimes 20-30 thousand dollars. The EB said they are looking into it.

These are not things I expect but are very important if I get an interview or a job opportunity over seas. We all know in pursuing flying jobs are not easy and take a while to get if at all. No one wants to risk loosing their recall rights to IPA/UPS.

I too do not have a flying degree, however jobs outside of aviation where I and many others live don't exist. I am not crying about it I am dealing with it the best I can. I would like to know what your degree is or are you a hottie?;) J/K I am not a DILF so no pharmaceutical sales for me!

The FQS is a great thing for sure no one would deny it all though some on the B&G are celebrating as if we have won and as far as I can tell it will take a while before any celebrtion. Some in the 300 just don't have enough info right now on how it will work and more important not prolong a furlough or create another furlough down the road by adding 130 FQS senior to most of us in the 300 as some are implying on the B&G.

I am sorry, but A type personalities don't ever here the words "trust me or your EB or UPS) and say okay. While I know the IPA and the EB have all of our best interests at hand sometimes it doesn't work out that way. To follow blindly or faithfully is not in most of our analytical minds. We need facts, statistics, the gouge, and more info. So we are seeing a little paranoia from those on the chopping block especially if they have seen the IPA presentation of doom and gloom.

I only know you from your posts and you seem like you have given a lot in the MOU etc for the bottom 300 thank you for that. So please be patient with those venting here remember APC is for "entitled" the Bar&Grill is for the Party Liners and a few senior cyber bullies. The bottom 300 are expected by all to just tug the party line, have faith in our EB, and keep quiet or we will label you ungreatful, entitled, weak, helping mngmnt, not unified, add insult here.

I hope all of our concerns are for nothing, but I think reality and data is showing we have entered a new era at the IPA/UPS only time will tell.

100% IPA

GOCKY
03-11-2010, 11:39 AM
I'll start the noose, just won't tighten it ...

First off, I hope you are saying this based upon your vast life experiences and airline furloughs. If you are I find it difficult to believe that you think a job flipping burgers could cover COBRA medical coverage for a family, let alone cover other living expenses. Have you travelled this economic reality already ?

And if a smaller group (1800) ALPA pilots could pick up the tab for medical coverage for a comparable amount of furloughed crewmembers (200) on half the income of a typical IPA pilot, we should be ashamed of ourselves if we don't do the same thing.

Awhile back when the whole furlough and MOU was started a year ago, B767pilot asked me privately what I would expect from the IPA. I don't expect a stipend, etc ... but medical coverage for those that do not have access to another form would be the only thing that I think the IPA should do. It is the right thing for a union to do, call me an idealist, whatever ! No man left behind ...

Major medical is the only thing that has me worried. I have a war chest to support my family for quite a long time otherwise. You of all people (expecting mother) should know that good medical care doesn't come cheaply. And it is nothing you should expect another union member to do without, under any circumstances.

You would like that person to watch your back down the road, so don't throw them completely to the side of the road. It won't do any good for either side of the furlough line.

Been there and done that ....

Don't worry, Obama has your back.

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 11:44 AM
Hey Waborita,
I really really am not trying to be a biatch here and trust me, I feel very very horrible about this situation and I feel for anyone that loses their job. I just got annoyed from the context of one person's post and I probably overreacted. The entire thing is just a crappy situation and I hope it all works out. I don't want anyone to think that they are being thrown under the bus or forgotten or anything like that. I truly think the union is doing their best but maybe I am naive? I hope not.

My degree is in nursing and I'll always be greatful to a certain UPS A300 FO who used to be my flight instructor that led me in that direction.

Waborita
03-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Freighpuppy

Trust me I am in the 300 and it is frustrating and sometimes embarassing to watch some in the bottom 300 self destruct. That is why I am wondering how the GMM in ANC tomorrow is going to go. I am sure the EB will be ready this time for a little hostility.

I could have been a Doctor if it wasn't for all that schooling. Who am I kidding I would have just gone out and killed myself in a V tailed Bonanza.:D

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 12:02 PM
Well it's hard not to freak when faced with something like this.

Waborita
03-11-2010, 12:19 PM
Never mind I wish this thing let you delete the whole post.

Archie Bunker
03-11-2010, 02:40 PM
Cobra for furloughees is very standard even at ALPA and regional airlines like the one I came from.

When I was furloughed from Delta (2002-2005), the union payed for all the furloughee's medical/dental/vision benefits. An overwhelming majority of the pilots voted to support this program, and every pilot was mandated to participate after the vote was affirmed. These were pilots that just took huge paycuts, had their contract raped, and watched their pension get flushed down the toilet.

When I was recalled from furlough, I started making payments to this program. As more and more pilots were recalled, our monthly contribution decreased accordingly. I never expected this generosity, but I sure appreciated it. It eased the stress of not having to worry about medical coverage while looking for another job.

IMHO, it is the very least we can do for our pilots facing unemployment in a horrible economy.

Naven
03-11-2010, 02:57 PM
When I was recalled from furlough, I started making payments to this program. As more and more pilots were recalled, our monthly contribution decreased accordingly. I never expected this generosity, but I sure appreciated it. It eased the stress of not having to worry about medical coverage while looking for another job.

IMHO, it is the very least we can do for our pilots facing unemployment in a horrible economy.
I agree completely. However we had 30% of our union brothers that couldn't even give up 1 hour of their precious sick time to the MOU. Do you really think that they will vote to give up a couple of hundred dollars a month indefinitely? Most airlines have the 5-10% we have the 30%.

Freightpuppy
03-11-2010, 03:14 PM
Archie and Naven,
I totally agree and I think most of the group will step up to the plate. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are those that won't give a dime.

Sideshow Bob
03-11-2010, 04:14 PM
Archie and Naven,
I totally agree and I think most of the group will step up to the plate. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are those that won't give a dime.

Forget those self centered fornicators...it will be an assessment mandated by an overwhelming vote. I hope that those who have heartburn over the assesssment have a stroke and clear the way for a true IPA member.

SaltyDog
03-11-2010, 06:04 PM
I agree completely. However we had 30% of our union brothers that couldn't even give up 1 hour of their precious sick time to the MOU. Do you really think that they will vote to give up a couple of hundred dollars a month indefinitely? Most airlines have the 5-10% we have the 30%.

Yet the 70% are more generous than 99% of other airline unions. Simple math: Like SB says, The 70% will vote in the package. As stated earlier, during the Teamsters strike, we held at 100%. Just focus on the generosity of the 73%. Besides, would empirically argue that the JA/OT ban is supported by closer to he 100% figure. Even the #1 in the system turned down a JA.

Kooky
03-11-2010, 06:42 PM
I was on property at NWA when we (fellow pilots) agreed to pay for the furloughed pilots medical insurance. It was around $30 a month per pilot. I was happy to pay this and had a furloughed pilot who was jumpseating come up and personally thank the Captain and I. His child had just received a cochlear implant through the benefits provided allowing her to hear her first words. Pass this along to your Union officers who I assume are already working this out. Hopefully, you wont need any implants but what a load off of a pilots/family mind to have insurance.

FliFast
03-11-2010, 08:26 PM
Ok, at the risk of being strung out on a noose.....

FOR PETE'S SAKE PEOPLE! I know there are no pilot jobs out there to be had but you have to take responsibility for yourselves! If that means your wife gets a job flipping burgers or 2 and so do you then so be it! !

You wanna go tell 300 wives to go flip burgers because their husbands CEO got a 6.2% increase in compensation subsidized by their husbands career....easier said than done.

Being displaced to ANC is far better option than being furlough. Most being furloughed were displaced first to ANC and/or had no choice in the matter but were hired straight to ANC against their standing (age) in their newhire class.

For Pete's Sake, no actualy it's for Scott's sake that we are getting furloughed

FliFast
03-11-2010, 08:30 PM
Back to the issue at hand. Why doesn't the IPA petition the NMB for single carrier status to include the FQS without a card vote.

After the Allied Pilots Association (American Airlines) pilots *** raped us (TWA) they applied for single carrier status, even though we fought them tooth and nail to prevent it, the NMB approved their petition.

1111
03-11-2010, 10:06 PM
why are some union members falling 170 spots in this offer while others are eating milk in their mash? (1984) I don't remember voting for that offer nor do I remember an arbitrator mandating it.

If the jobs are so damn important to get it done NOW, Staple them to the Top....I bet they sign on to that deal! If the goal is for it to fail, then offer them a spot on the bottom where they can flip burgers until the company finds the money to recall their ever precious FQS! But this limp wristed DOH offer without Union consent is just full of protectionism and division.....

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others",

BrownBusDriver
03-12-2010, 02:15 AM
At one time, there actually were those who would be at the top, and might still be. I can think of one ho is maybe has a hire date that early. I think date of hire is very appropriate and fair.

These guys bring jobs and a need for more reserves. If we get them UPS will very surely bring up the reserve numbers, just remember, they might get mad, but the will move the boxes.

Hang in there.

BrownBusDriver

1111
03-12-2010, 06:39 AM
The issue isn't whether getting the jobs are good/bad for the union. That's clearly good, but the method and timing of integration is totally negotiable. "Fair" is a pretty loose term thrown around like a punch line at parties, while a few continue to get pummelled by these stands of priciple! If getting the FQS to sign is paramount....put them at the top.....if not put them at the bottom, then negotiate from there. It seems the 100+ heading out the door are sittin on the poker table as a double down bet.....hoping the dealer busts! The offer put on the table is a pathetic attempt to have some sort of moral victory amongst the senior majority by feeling good about their "fair" offer. If your gonna be bold...be bold, but I bet the jobs won't be so important when they get stapled to the TOP.....

Shoving it down the companies throat during a time of overmanning is a bold and careless/ingenious move...TBD (as we don't know the whole plan). But those on the bottom will be impacted a hell of alot longer than those at the top!!! SO what is fair again?

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 06:52 AM
You wanna go tell 300 wives to go flip burgers because their husbands CEO got a 6.2% increase in compensation subsidized by their husbands career....easier said than done.

Being displaced to ANC is far better option than being furlough. Most being furloughed were displaced first to ANC and/or had no choice in the matter but were hired straight to ANC against their standing (age) in their newhire class.

For Pete's Sake, no actualy it's for Scott's sake that we are getting furloughed



I would have no problem telling them to get a job if necessary. If their only skill is to be able to flip burgers then they made a huge mistake (getting married and having kids with no skills) a long time ago. Staying at home with your kids while someone else supports you is a privilege not a right. You gotta do what you gotta do for your own family and any wife that would have problems doing whatever job necessary to feed her family is not a wife worth having. I mean, seriously!

767pilot
03-12-2010, 07:38 AM
Don't worry, Obama has your back.

as a matter of fact, he does. There is government help now in paying the cobra premium

say that again
03-12-2010, 07:58 AM
FWIW, every pilot on the seniority list (especially the ones who are about to be furloughed) better hope this thing passes. Now that the hand has been played, if the IPA loses this one there will be hell to pay for all parties involved for decades to come. Just like after the Teamsters strike in '97, UPS was punitive to it's employees for years. You could expect to be furloughed longer if this doesn't pass.

say that again
03-12-2010, 08:00 AM
I would have no problem telling them to get a job if necessary. If their only skill is to be able to flip burgers then they made a huge mistake (getting married and having kids with no skills) a long time ago. Staying at home with your kids while someone else supports you is a privilege not a right. You gotta do what you gotta do for your own family and any wife that would have problems doing whatever job necessary to feed her family is not a wife worth having. I mean, seriously!
I agree with you but rest assured, your point of view is not shared with most IPA wives.

Buck92
03-12-2010, 08:03 AM
I agree with you but rest assured, your point of view is not shared with most IPA wives.

Or the higher number of IPA ex-wives who are currently spending my upgrade money by keeping their ex's working longer...

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 08:07 AM
I agree with you but rest assured, your point of view is not shared with most IPA wives.

That's a shame because last I checked marriage was a partnership.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 08:27 AM
Or the higher number of IPA ex-wives who are currently spending my upgrade money by keeping their ex's working longer...

That's totally a shame. I don't believe in alimony....what a joke. The ONLY exception I can even remotely see is if the kids are not in school yet. Once they are in school all day, get your butt to work!

say that again
03-12-2010, 08:47 AM
That's totally a shame. I don't believe in alimony....what a joke. The ONLY exception I can even remotely see is if the kids are not in school yet. Once they are in school all day, get your butt to work!

Funny how many women say the same thing until a lawyer gets ahold of them and they find themselves in divorce court. After 22 years here my take home is that of a 10 year F/O after the alimony deduction. My last check was for 1/3 of the gross amount. Just wait 'till our president has his way.

CactusCrew
03-12-2010, 10:15 AM
FWIW, every pilot on the seniority list (especially the ones who are about to be furloughed) better hope this thing passes. Now that the hand has been played, if the IPA loses this one there will be hell to pay for all parties involved for decades to come. Just like after the Teamsters strike in '97, UPS was punitive to it's employees for years. You could expect to be furloughed longer if this doesn't pass.

So we should hope that a bunch of brown blood managers volunteer to join our union ... I won't be holding my breath.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 10:25 AM
Back to the issue at hand. Why doesn't the IPA petition the NMB for single carrier status to include the FQS without a card vote.

It's easier this way. If this fails, you still have that option. If the card drive fails you can easily try again. If the petittion fails, you are stuck with that ruling

navigatro
03-12-2010, 10:59 AM
as a matter of fact, he does. There is government help now in paying the cobra premium

Unfortunately, Those furloughed from UPS will NOT be eligible for this assistance, since eligibility will expire on March 31, 2010:

President Obama signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) on February 17, 2009. Under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, certain individuals who are eligible for continued health insurance coverage under the federal COBRA law, or the Massachusetts mini-COBRA law, may receive a subsidy for 65% of the costs of their health care premium. On December 19, 2009, the President signed the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010 extending the "stimulus" unemployment benefits through March 31, 2010 and increasing the COBRA coverage from 9 months to fifteen months. If eligible, instead of paying 100% of the premium, you will pay only 35%, for up to fifteen months, and the organization to which you pay the premium, usually your employer, will pay the remainder of the premium -- 65% -- and offset that expense with a tax credit.
Important requirements:


You must have been involuntarily terminated from employment between September 1, 2008 and March 31, 2010.
You must be eligible for COBRA benefits – if you were terminated for gross misconduct, for example, you are ineligible for COBRA.
Even if you were previously eligible for COBRA benefits but you rejected those benefits, you may still be eligible for the new benefit. You have 60 days from receipt of notice from your employer to elect COBRA coverage.
The benefit phases out for individuals whose gross income exceeds $125,000, and for those who file joint returns if their income exceeds $250,000.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 12:03 PM
I was under the impression that the act had been extended. I checked and it was, but it looks like the 3/31 deadline held. I guess when cobra expires they can rest on the tender mercies of Senator Bunning and the health care industry ;)

brownie
03-12-2010, 12:38 PM
I was under the impression that the act had been extended. I checked and it was, but it looks like the 3/31 deadline held. I guess when cobra expires they can rest on the tender mercies of Senator Bunning and the health care industry ;)

The bill for the the unemployment and the cobra was just extended for another 99 weeks this week.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 12:41 PM
The bill for the the unemployment and the cobra was just extended for another 99 weeks this week.

It looks like you have to meet that March 31 deadline for the COBRA extension

Waborita
03-12-2010, 01:10 PM
Does the furlough notice with no date count or do I have to wait for the official date from UPS? Techically with 90 day notice I have now they could just say goodbye the day I land in Anchorage once the 90 days is up and in seniority order of course?

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 02:17 PM
Funny how many women say the same thing until a lawyer gets ahold of them and they find themselves in divorce court. After 22 years here my take home is that of a 10 year F/O after the alimony deduction. My last check was for 1/3 of the gross amount. Just wait 'till our president has his way.

Yeah, except I mean it. If I was married to my fiance and we got divorced, I'd be the one paying alimony. :o

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 02:19 PM
So we should hope that a bunch of brown blood managers volunteer to join our union ... I won't be holding my breath.

What worries me are the managers hired in the 2005-ish time frame. I talked to one who said that a lot of managers would like to be in the union but if they were given DOH, they'd be FOs and taking a paycut. There are around 60 of them so I think it's going to be close. :o

757upspilot
03-12-2010, 02:34 PM
What worries me are the managers hired in the 2005-ish time frame. I talked to one who said that a lot of managers would like to be in the union but if they were given DOH, they'd be FOs and taking a paycut. There are around 60 of them so I think it's going to be close. :o If they reject the IPA and the positions they currently hold are determined the same class and craft they may take a 100% pay cut or get pasted on the bottom.

1111
03-12-2010, 03:12 PM
If they reject the IPA and the positions they currently hold are determined the same class and craft they may take a 100% pay cut or get pasted on the bottom.

If that's the case....why offer them DOH? Offer the bottom lines, then go to the next level....DOH makes zero sense...

757upspilot
03-12-2010, 03:21 PM
If that's the case....why offer them DOH? Offer the bottom lines, then go to the next level....DOH makes zero sense... The offer of DOH makes sense as an indication of what they rejected when we go after the positions. Its would establish that they rejected union representation when offered while working in the same class and craft. It might well allow us to paste them on the bottom since they rejected DOH.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 03:33 PM
Well then maybe it's a good thing if the reject us.....if it works out to our favor in the end, I'd rather they be stapled. Let's cross our fingers.

757upspilot
03-12-2010, 03:39 PM
Well then maybe it's a good thing if the reject us.....if it works out to our favor in the end, I'd rather they be stapled. Let's cross our fingers.
Either way I think the objective is for an IPA pilot to fill those positions.

1111
03-12-2010, 03:52 PM
I guess if our intentions were to make the card signing fail, then it could show "fair" intentions, but what if it succeeds? Then guess what, they are now getting DOH without a vote of the membership....or arbitration.

Why we are playing DOH games, if we're planning on going to arbitration...If we wanted it to succeed, then we should have put them at the top of the list, and the airline within the airline would be over.

CactusCrew
03-12-2010, 04:26 PM
I guess if our intentions were to make the card signing fail, then it could show "fair" intentions, but what if it succeeds? Then guess what, they are now getting DOH without a vote of the membership....or arbitration.

Why we are playing DOH games, if we're planning on going to arbitration...If we wanted it to succeed, then we should have put them at the top of the list, and the airline within the airline would be over.

I have been through 2 seniority list integrations in my career, thus far. At no time was there a vote of the membership to approve a seniority list. Please enlighten me where this vote requirement is contained in the language of the RLA, it would be nice to know it is there.

As for arbitration, it will be entered at the parties mutual request. In one case the lists were combined without, in another case it was drafted by an arbitrator. I don't see how or why either side (IPA vs FQS) would request arbitration in hopes of a better position on a combined seniority list.

YMMV

1111
03-12-2010, 05:10 PM
I have been through2 seniority list integrations in my career, thus far. At no time was there a vote of the membership to approve a seniority list. Please enlighten me where this vote requirement is contained in the language of the RLA, it would be nice to know it is there.

As for arbitration, it will be entered at the parties mutual request. In one case the lists were combined without, in another case it was drafted by an arbitrator. I don't see how or why either side (IPA vs FQS) would request arbitration in hopes of a better position on a combined seniority list.

YMMV

edited....to remove emotional Banter (your right though, no requirement to vote, so no need to get input from the union, reality noted.....)

My question is why not lines 1-170...this should increase the number of Capt slots (per EB propoganda) as well as the need to hire more pilots. DOH is nothing worth signing over if an FQS is a capt now, then an F/O tomorrow.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 05:53 PM
What worries me are the managers hired in the 2005-ish time frame. I talked to one who said that a lot of managers would like to be in the union but if they were given DOH, they'd be FOs and taking a paycut. There are around 60 of them so I think it's going to be close. :o

On the one hand, that is where they should be by all rights, and it makes me worry about the mentality of someone that would make a statement like that, but I won't go there :D . There will no doubt be some sort of a fence that will keep them as a captain, and in fact keep them in their present job for a while. The RLA and the NMB prohibits the company from firing them or demoting them as a result of the election or its results. If we get enough cards they are IPA members, but they still will need to have contract provisions negotiated with the company. It's not like they will send in the cards and be bidding line trips the next month.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 05:56 PM
DOH is nothing worth signing over if an FQS is a capt now, then an F/O tomorrow.

they won't be F/O's tomorrow.

1111
03-12-2010, 06:03 PM
they won't be F/O's tomorrow.

noted....tomorrow, as in tomorrowkind.;)

767pilot
03-12-2010, 06:05 PM
My question is why not lines 1-170...this should increase the number of Capt slots (per EB propoganda) as well as the need to hire more pilots. DOH is nothing worth signing over if an FQS is a capt now, then an F/O tomorrow.

You can build a case that the natural place for those guys is their date of hire (read the Katz letter). What case can you build for why they should have positions 1-170 on our list?

1111
03-12-2010, 06:34 PM
You can build a case that the natural place for those guys is their date of hire (read the Katz letter). What case can you build for why they should have positions 1-170 on our list?

My case? easy.....someone offers you 5 bucks to mow their 10 acre lawn, I'd probably say no depending if I'm furloughed or not....but someone offers you 10,000 bucks.....I'd do it every day all week for the rest of the month....

why make them think about it...make it a no brainer. We save a ****load of money in lawyer fees/increased dues...the process is sped up, they are happier with the integration.....the furlough can end sooner....

oh...there might be a few ruffled feathers in the upper levels of the caste system...I mean Union, but hey, it's for the good of the whole not a few!!!

Airbum
03-12-2010, 08:10 PM
1111 your hyperbole could as well be the IPA pays them a million a year to leave thus creating jobs and stopping the layoff

the difference being those "few" you wish to use to divide the group would not be punished

1111
03-12-2010, 08:43 PM
1111 your hyperbole could as well be the IPA pays them a million a year to leave thus creating jobs and stopping the layoff

the difference being those "few" you wish to use to divide the group would not be punished

1st paragraph is absolutely what I'm talking about...If we offered them that, then I be they'd sign.....but we'd run out of money pretty quick, so that's not very practical. But by offering them a good QOL with their career in the Union, we drop 170 spots, but gain more in pilot jobs faster. It's a trade off....what's the rub?

not sure where you're wandering off with the "few" ...wishing to divide...somthin somthin.....

Buck92
03-12-2010, 09:32 PM
I can't imagine any of the FQS would sign for less than being stapled to the bottom of the CA list -- none of them will give up a stripe and I really don't know how you could integrate the list by DOH if a bunch of them would meld into the FO list but they get to stay Capts?! Some of the senior FQS wouldn't sign for being stapled to bottom of CA list, they'd want a higher number. It seems like a pretty tough nut to crack...

We might consider the assistance of an outside consultant. We need a real "hands on" type of guy who's known to reach around the aisle and grope for solutions. Willing to take his work into the shower and keep a close eye on things. I think there's a gentleman vacating his congressional seat in NY who just may have the time to help us out. :D

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 11:37 PM
On the one hand, that is where they should be by all rights, and it makes me worry about the psyche of someone that would make a statement like that, but I won't go there :D .

Are you surprised one would say this? I mean, the guy was IPA gone to the dark side....no surprise there. :eek:

Night_Hawk
03-13-2010, 04:06 AM
The offer of DOH makes sense as an indication of what they rejected when we go after the positions. Its would establish that they rejected union representation when offered while working in the same class and craft. It might well allow us to paste them on the bottom since they rejected DOH.

I disagree. I think if they reject DOH & it goes to an arbitrater. He is going to think the union started w/ DOH and that was not good enough. Lets give them a little more.

Now we are going to go to arbitration stating stapple them at the bottom because they would not take DOH. Seams like a week argument.

CactusCrew
03-13-2010, 04:09 AM
I can't imagine any of the FQS would sign for less than being stapled to the bottom of the CA list -- none of them will give up a stripe and I really don't know how you could integrate the list by DOH if a bunch of them would meld into the FO list but they get to stay Capts?! Some of the senior FQS wouldn't sign for being stapled to bottom of CA list, they'd want a higher number. It seems like a pretty tough nut to crack...

We might consider the assistance of an outside consultant. We need a real "hands on" type of guy who's known to reach around the aisle and grope for solutions. Willing to take his work into the shower and keep a close eye on things. I think there's a gentleman vacating his congressional seat in NY who just may have the time to help us out. :D


They would get to stay Capts as long as they stay in their present base and equipment. So the junior types that were invited to ANC by management and are in the left seat up there, would NOT be allowed to bump into SDF as a Capt just because they are a management Capt.

The problem with that type of fence is the handful of SDF based B747 manager Capts, where do they get locked ?

The DOH thing isn't as "tough of a nut to crack" as you would believe ... ;)

But we both know, the larger issue is the ego of some of the ready made manager Capts who aren't ready or willing to become a part of Labor ...

767pilot
03-13-2010, 04:42 AM
I disagree. I think if they reject DOH & it goes to an arbitrater. ....

I agree with you except for one thing. This is not a negotiation, it is a deal. When a group is not organized (unionized) there is no one to legally negotiate with. You make a deal with FQS 1, and FQS2 doesn't like it, what do you do about it? If they wanted the legal right to have a say they should have done this on their own a while back. There are many cases out there (southwest and it's aquisitions, where a non unionized group is integrated and it is with a staple gun. Deal done, end of story. We are being way more generous than that. There is no provision at all to arbitrate this thing if someone doesn't like it.

767pilot
03-13-2010, 05:01 AM
My case? easy.....someone offers you 5 bucks to mow their 10 acre lawn, I'd probably say no depending if I'm furloughed or not....but someone offers you 10,000 bucks.....I'd do it every day all week for the rest of the month........

It depends on how badly you need your grass cut. We need ours cut badly enough to integrate them onto the list, not to cede it over to them.

Do you really mean what you say or are you just being provacative? It seeems like you are upset that you will lose more numbers through your juniority than others that are senior, so why not stab them as hard as you are being asked to take it. I'm confused, because a post or two down you seem to be in favor of bringing them over.

As to the manager that wants to be unionized but only in a favorable seat position, I would say you are either going to be union or not. There are going to be pro's and con's. Enjoy working half as much as you do now, having time with the family off of the beeper. and the ability to tell your boss to shove it when things get to tough on you. We've had good men literally crack and end up in psychiatric hospitals when they couldn't take the pressures put on them by UPS without a union to stand behind them. Read Stilly's stories and imagine going through that alone. It goes a long way to explaining why DW was found naked in a church off of the interstate.

I don't see where losing the captains seat is a threat to them. They will remain captains in a merged list, albeit some will be junior, and unless there are more displacements, there is no mechanism for them to lose that stripe.

I'm reminded of the guy asking a woman to sleep with him and he gets slapped in the face. He asks her to do it for a million bucks and she asks what kind of a gril she thinks she is? He replies that he already knows the answer to that, now they are just arguing over the price.

767pilot
03-13-2010, 05:06 AM
But we both know, the larger issue is the ego of some of the ready made manager Capts who aren't ready or willing to become a part of Labor ...

BINGO! The interesting thing for them to consider though is that if this thing fails, they may find themselves the one being cut, standing on the street and wondering what happened.

Pilot7576
03-13-2010, 05:59 AM
Folks....

All these arguments about list placement and paycuts for the junior mgrs presuppose that the fqs cpts make as much as IPA cpts....I don't think that is the case...had a ual cpt interview for a mgr position a couple years ago and they offered him less than 150k for the position....

Pilot7576

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 06:19 AM
Folks....

All these arguments about list placement and paycuts for the junior mgrs presuppose that the fqs cpts make as much as IPA cpts....I don't think that is the case...had a ual cpt interview for a mgr position a couple years ago and they offered him less than 150k for the position....

Pilot7576
I have heard this from more than one person from a 747 carrier when we started the 400 program.

1111
03-13-2010, 06:42 AM
It depends on how badly you need your grass cut. We need ours cut badly enough to integrate them onto the list, not to cede it over to them.

Do you really mean what you say or are you just being provacative? It seeems like you are upset that you will lose more numbers through your juniority than others that are senior, so why not stab them as hard as you are being asked to take it. I'm confused, because a post or two down you seem to be in favor of bringing them over.

As to the manager that wants to be unionized but only in a favorable seat position, I would say you are either going to be union or not. There are going to be pro's and con's. Enjoy working half as much as you do now, having time with the family off of the beeper. and the ability to tell your boss to shove it when things get to tough on you. We've had good men literally crack and end up in psychiatric hospitals when they couldn't take the pressures put on them by UPS without a union to stand behind them. Read Stilly's stories and imagine going through that alone. It goes a long way to explaining why DW was found naked in a church off of the interstate.

I don't see where losing the captains seat is a threat to them. They will remain captains in a merged list, albeit some will be junior, and unless there are more displacements, there is no mechanism for them to lose that stripe.

I'm reminded of the guy asking a woman to sleep with him and he gets slapped in the face. He asks her to do it for a million bucks and she asks what kind of a gril she thinks she is? He replies that he already knows the answer to that, now they are just arguing over the price.

A little touch of the Devils Advocate, but more confused by the direction the EB is heading with it. Bring the jobs over to the Union.....Yes, It would be very good for our union as a whole...no question. The method we are approaching it is weak...that is my point!! Offer them the bottom, if we really don't want them to sign (in order to pursue them legally and staple them when they don't come willingly)....or, bribe them with a chance of a lifetime to be 1-170. The only folks that will push back are those with a vendetta against the FQS and Senior members who's QOL will be affected by sliding 170 slots (but not affected by DOH). None of those are legit reasons to keep the Union as a whole from making the offer.

DOH is pandering to a few in the Union who keep their QOL and the rest who are once again pushed back. The DOH offer more than likely will be rejected, and a LOOOOOOONG and drawn out legal battle will begin, while in the mean time 54 of our guys walk out the door in two months. And every month after more will follow.......that is my rub!

If they reject the top of the List, then we don't want the pilots, let's go after the slots. (some would argue that is the direction we should be going anyway)

767pilot
03-13-2010, 10:24 AM
Folks....

All these arguments about list placement and paycuts for the junior mgrs presuppose that the fqs cpts make as much as IPA cpts....I don't think that is the case...had a ual cpt interview for a mgr position a couple years ago and they offered him less than 150k for the position....

Pilot7576

I'm told that the get offered "about" the same as our contract calls for with the same years of service. A starting guy is not going to make the same as you and I. A guy hired as a manager in 2005 is now making "about" what our contract calls for a 5 or 6 year captain to make. Their retirement is not as good as ours anymore.

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 10:30 AM
I'm told that the get offered "about" the same as our contract calls for with the same years of service. A starting guy is not going to make the same as you and I. A guy hired as a manager in 2005 is now making "about" what our contract calls for a 5 or 6 year captain to make. Their retirement is not as good as ours anymore.
A couple have told me the medical plan isn't as good either.

FreightDawg2
03-13-2010, 12:15 PM
This effort is short sighted and short lived. It will fail and it will fail big. You will only see about 10% of ANY supervisor vote to be part this highly disfunctional union.
IMO:confused:

UPSFO4LIFE
03-13-2010, 12:33 PM
This effort is short sighted and short lived. It will fail and it will fail big. You will only see about 10% of ANY supervisor vote to be part this highly disfunctional union.
IMO:confused:

Hell, 5% would shock the hell out of me!

767pilot
03-13-2010, 01:45 PM
Hell, 5% would shock the hell out of me!

If it is anything less than 50% + 1 you will probably never hear how close or far away we were.

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 03:47 PM
This effort is short sighted and short lived. It will fail and it will fail big. You will only see about 10% of ANY supervisor vote to be part this highly disfunctional union.
IMO:confused:

They work for a more disfunctional company. If it fails we go after the jobs without them:D

SaltyDog
03-13-2010, 06:56 PM
This effort is short sighted and short lived. It will fail and it will fail big. You will only see about 10% of ANY supervisor vote to be part this highly disfunctional union.
IMO:confused:

FD2,
Have heart, come on over. Enjoy the contractual protections you deserve with the flying duties you presently perform. Accretion will probably be very good to you all. Assuredly, the issue will not be short lived. Though it sat dormant for so long it will now go through the full process. The furlough was a cause and effect. IPA was willing to pay to keep IPA on property and avoid the whole issue. The rejection wiped out any friction. A generous group the IPA is, that is why DOH was offered and likely a favorable accretion for protection of those who desire same duties, etc.
Good luck

767pilot
03-13-2010, 08:02 PM
FD2,
Have heart, come on over. Enjoy the contractual protections you deserve with the flying duties you presently perform

I think you found TJH. I wonder why these guys think that they can't still be part of their elite team with a union card in their pocket?

FreightDawg2
03-13-2010, 08:48 PM
I think you found TJH. I wonder why these guys think that they can't still be part of their elite team with a union card in their pocket?



TJH? Help me...I dont speak bulletin board very well.

FreightDawg2
03-13-2010, 08:50 PM
They work for a more disfunctional company. If it fails we go after the jobs without them:D


I cant say that we dont have our problems, but you have absolutely no basis to go after anything. I think you should try and get your own house in order, become more productive and work on growing the business, so we need more pilots. That would serve us ALL better. :)

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 09:00 PM
I cant say that we dont have our problems, but you have absolutely no basis to go after anything. I think you should try and get your own house in order, become more productive and work on growing the business, so we need more pilots. That would serve us ALL better. :)
TH for a Lawyer you write a terrible letter.:D

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 09:11 PM
I cant say that we dont have our problems, but you have absolutely no basis to go after anything. I think you should try and get your own house in order, become more productive and work on growing the business, so we need more pilots. That would serve us ALL better. :)

We want the positions, always have, we just don't want be be managers to get them. We are making the offer to bring you in with the positions and give you date of hire seniority. No where else in the industry are these positions non union, we let this go because with the expansion why mess with the stuff we didn't care about that much, you have to displace to fly and we don't have to let you, we don't want to fly a crummy trip a FQS gets stuck with it, FO doesn't have to fly with you if they are willing to take the pay hit, so until the company decided to put IPA pilots on the street we let it slide. :D

UPSierra
03-14-2010, 09:08 AM
They work for a more disfunctional company. If it fails we go after the jobs without them:D

Ah, the truth unveils itself. This is all about going after the jobs with no desire for the additional headcount. Does anyone actually believe the IPA is driven out of a concern for the management pilots? Believing the altruistic intentions of the IPA is truly what I would call "disfunctional" placement of trust.

Just think, if you can find enough gullible Sups to "trust" the IPA with their careers and get enough returned cards, that would be perfect. You put up a token fight for DOH integration, then staple them to the bottom. "Sorry guys - we tried. (Suckers! - snicker, snicker)" BT then saves 160 jobs for the bottom current membership and forces the company to furlough the management pilots. Very cleaver, yet very transparent.

I wish we could let a few disgruntled sups go back to the line. It would raise the average IQ of both groups.

757upspilot
03-14-2010, 09:23 AM
Ah, the truth unveils itself. This is all about going after the jobs with no desire for the additional headcount. Does anyone actually believe the IPA is driven out of a concern for the management pilots? Believing the altruistic intentions of the IPA is truly what I would call "disfunctional" placement of trust.

Just think, if you can find enough gullible Sups to "trust" the IPA with their careers and get enough returned cards, that would be perfect. You put up a token fight for DOH integration, then staple them to the bottom. "Sorry guys - we tried. (Suckers! - snicker, snicker)" BT then saves 160 jobs for the bottom current membership and forces the company to furlough the management pilots. Very cleaver, yet very transparent.

I wish we could let a few disgruntled sups go back to the line. It would raise the average IQ of both groups.

Glad to see one of our FQS thinks so highly of us. The offer was made for DOH and that is what will happen if you vote for the IPA, if you don't the UNION will go after the jobs based on class and craft. You could call the IPA office and ask BT.

turkeydrvr
03-14-2010, 09:31 AM
Now that is UPS leadership for you. Nice work UPsierra, we now know just how high your IQ is. F2, if UPS wanted extra business they could fly any number of military charters. You are not a manager because you merit it. You are there to subvert a unionized pilot group in the big picture. That is the basis to go after everything. Where else in the company do supervisors do hourly work? How does UPS justify going after Fed Ex when its own house is not in order? What other airline has our system? Management keeps saying that is the reason why we are so "safe". Really, a commuter or military pilot coming straight to the line as a check airman is safe? They have a couple hundred hours, checking pilots that have flown airplanes longer than they have been alive is safe? Where is the credibility in that? The truth is we are safe because no one here is willing to do anything unsafe just for the company's benefit. Your job as well as ours is much safer with the IPA.

FR8TFLYER
03-14-2010, 09:51 AM
UPSierra-

You have obviously drank too much of the Brown Kool-Aid. I would imagine at the off campus secret meeting that all the "Knee-cappers" fed you all a line of BS that the IPA would screw you guys.

The integration by date of hire is what is being put on the table. You guys turn it down and I would imagine we will go after the jobs with no regard for the bodies, why not at that point?

1111
03-14-2010, 10:06 AM
By definition...it will become "hostile" as the union will pursue the jobs if the pilots don't come willingly, but I hope that they do come willingly, because there is a tremendous amount of experience and insight with the company that these FQS can bring with them. I really wish we could have given them an above and beyond offer that will secure their place in the Union....ie. my previous post regarding spots 1-170. This will not only ensure they feel our sacrifice, but also our expectations from them to support the Union and their endeavors....

Though DOH is not stapling them to the bottom, it's not offering them any kind of incentive either.....

FR8TFLYER
03-14-2010, 10:18 AM
Tremendous amount of experience, not sure about that part? Some of these guys came here with very little experience, the company wanted to hire a bunch of "yes-men" and that is what they got!

Freightpuppy
03-14-2010, 10:29 AM
Ah, the truth unveils itself. This is all about going after the jobs with no desire for the additional headcount. Does anyone actually believe the IPA is driven out of a concern for the management pilots? Believing the altruistic intentions of the IPA is truly what I would call "disfunctional" placement of trust.

Just think, if you can find enough gullible Sups to "trust" the IPA with their careers and get enough returned cards, that would be perfect. You put up a token fight for DOH integration, then staple them to the bottom. "Sorry guys - we tried. (Suckers! - snicker, snicker)" BT then saves 160 jobs for the bottom current membership and forces the company to furlough the management pilots. Very cleaver, yet very transparent.

I wish we could let a few disgruntled sups go back to the line. It would raise the average IQ of both groups.

So you're saying someone should trust the company more.

That's the funniest $hit I've ever heard.

Slice
03-14-2010, 10:31 AM
By definition...it will become "hostile" as the union will pursue the jobs if the pilots don't come willingly, but I hope that they do come willingly, because there is a tremendous amount of experience and insight with the company that these FQS can bring with them. I really wish we could have given them an above and beyond offer that will secure their place in the Union....ie. my previous post regarding spots 1-170. This will not only ensure they feel our sacrifice, but also our expectations from them to support the Union and their endeavors....

Though DOH is not stapling them to the bottom, it's not offering them any kind of incentive either.....

Their incentive is a tremendous QOL increase by reducing their duty day to contract limits, more time off, and the ability to say NO when it's wise to do so. And yeah, they may take a little pay hit. In return they get better job security. There's no free lunch for anybody. If that's not good enough, screw 'em!

SLICE IS BACK, BABY! :)

Freightpuppy
03-14-2010, 10:32 AM
By definition...it will become "hostile" as the union will pursue the jobs if the pilots don't come willingly, but I hope that they do come willingly, because there is a tremendous amount of experience and insight with the company that these FQS can bring with them. I really wish we could have given them an above and beyond offer that will secure their place in the Union....ie. my previous post regarding spots 1-170. This will not only ensure they feel our sacrifice, but also our expectations from them to support the Union and their endeavors....

Though DOH is not stapling them to the bottom, it's not offering them any kind of incentive either.....


WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?

Dude, they already got to jump seniority for long enough. 1-170 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too generous. NO WAY! DOH is generous enough.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 10:34 AM
Though DOH is not stapling them to the bottom, it's not offering them any kind of incentive either.....

Longevity based pay, work rules well short of FAR's, more time off should they return to the line, aren't those incentives? Oh yea,....the ability to return to the line with your sanity should you feel burned out or just feel like telling the boss that you have had enough.......PRICELESS

1111
03-14-2010, 10:39 AM
Their incentive is a tremendous QOL increase by reducing their duty day to contract limits, more time off, and the ability to say NO when it's wise to do so. And yeah, they may take a little pay hit. In return they get better job security. There's no free lunch for anybody. If that's not good enough, screw 'em!

SLICE IS BACK, BABY! :)

Sign me up for that....pathetic.....either punch em in the face with a staple to the bottom....or court them with the top. We're bunch whiney little babies wanting whats "fair"....what's this middle of the road ****?

turkeydrvr
03-14-2010, 10:44 AM
1111,

If you have not read the Katz letter I recommend you do so. You court them all you want, I prefer to let the EB speak for me.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 11:10 AM
Longevity based pay, work rules well short of FAR's, more time off should they return to the line, aren't those incentives? Oh yea,....the ability to return to the line with your sanity should you feel burned out or just feel like telling the boss that you have had enough.......PRICELESS

uh oh, did I just agree with slice <G>?

Archie Bunker
03-14-2010, 11:43 AM
Just think, if you can find enough gullible Sups to "trust" the IPA with their careers and get enough returned cards, that would be perfect. You put up a token fight for DOH integration, then staple them to the bottom. "Sorry guys - we tried. (Suckers! - snicker, snicker)" BT then saves 160 jobs for the bottom current membership and forces the company to furlough the management pilots. Very cleaver, yet very transparent.

If the average FQS is as dumb as you are, maybe the IPA should rethink this whole thing.

A token fight for DOH integration? Fight with whom? What are you talking about? In addition to DOH, there will probably be fences put up around the junior FQS Captains, so they can continue performing line checks, IOE, and the like. Stapled to the bottom just isn't going to happen.

Personally, I wouldn't give a crap if they gave you the top 180 spots on the seniority list. I just want to do away with this "super scab reserve" that UPS abuses on a daily basis. There isn't one other airline in this country where management pilots aren't members of the union flying their aircraft.

DOH is a gift pal...take it or leave it. If we go to court and get your jobs declared the same "class and craft" as ours, you might just be looking at the unemployment line instead of a seniority number on the IPA list. One way or another, this "airline within an airline" is going to be dealt with...bet on it.

Slice
03-14-2010, 12:03 PM
uh oh, did I just agree with slice <G>?

It's ok, I don't think it's a ban-able offense any more...:D

SaltyDog
03-14-2010, 12:12 PM
Ah, the truth unveils itself. This is all about going after the jobs with no desire for the additional headcount. Does anyone actually believe the IPA is driven out of a concern for the management pilots? Believing the altruistic intentions of the IPA is truly what I would call "disfunctional" placement of trust.

Just think, if you can find enough gullible Sups to "trust" the IPA with their careers and get enough returned cards, that would be perfect. You put up a token fight for DOH integration, then staple them to the bottom. "Sorry guys - we tried. (Suckers! - snicker, snicker)" BT then saves 160 jobs for the bottom current membership and forces the company to furlough the management pilots. Very cleaver, yet very transparent.

I wish we could let a few disgruntled sups go back to the line. It would raise the average IQ of both groups.

UPSierra,
You attempt to take one anonymous poster comment regarding jobs and attempt to make that the 'official' IPA position.
Fact check: IPA has publicly presented DOH as their official IPA position. All the Feds and legal folks have these public documents. We all know that the IPA cannot then go play suckerpunch. Nice try at obfuscation, but it is beyond that point now and everyone knows DOH will stand as the legal reference point of the IPA. Accretion will resolve many of the issues that affect your career and value to UPS. As some post, IPA is interested in preserving your benefits and work choices as joint success benefits all of us.
The opportunity to keep IPA pilots on UPS property was the joint intent of the MOU, cancellation of the MOU over $13 million presented management a business opportunity to ask for a longer term and increased cost savings, and ultimately contract concessions. The membership clearly stated "No concessions" especially seconded from those in the junior 300 who have taken contract concessions at previous carriers and realize the folly of such a move, especially one as productive and successful as UPS.
UPS response, that neither of us had any choice, was to furlough.
The furlough is real, and UPS management will use FQS, with the same class and craft abilities as us, to fly airplanes and move revenue just like the furloughed pilots. You are intelligent to understand this is an untenable position for the IPA. Non union pilots flying regular revenue trips while union pilots are furloughed created this situation. It must be resolved once and for all by all legal means. UPS created the necessity to answer this unique airline industry relationship with the situation we now all find ourselves.
Additionally, find it interesting that ATL has decided to let 1800 groundside management positions go away. Certainly, many by retirement, etc, but not all. UPS is realigning districts to match the volumes. Reduced management and labor meets the lower cost per piece moved in the system caused by the lower volumes.
Would think that with all the reduced volumes the airline is moving, and thus necessity to furlough, will have an impact on the FQS staffing as well.
The same ATL UPS management that is letting 1800 groundside managers go is certainly not going to ignore the airline FQS staffing once the IPA JA/OT issues are resolved.
Therefore, it could be argued, that if there was no OT/JA ban that ATL would find it easier to right size the FQS force even quicker.
The MEF situation currently plays well for FQS job security, but it cannot remain a viable permanent business solution costwise by defintion by either party.
Regards from a line pilot

SaltyDog
03-14-2010, 12:26 PM
repeat post

weatherman
03-14-2010, 12:42 PM
ups will layoff a bunch of fqs shortly anyway. if i were a fqs, i would hurry up and sign the card before the ax comes down. that way one could argue that they were fired for signing the card, which is illegal and will likely lead to another big settlement for the fqs.

it's all spelled out in the katz letter on the ipa site. i suggest that the fqs read the letter and sign the cards asap.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 02:27 PM
ups will layoff a bunch of fqs shortly anyway. if i were a fqs, i would hurry up and sign the card before the ax comes down. that way one could argue that they were fired for signing the card, which is illegal and will likely lead to another big settlement for the fqs.

it's all spelled out in the katz letter on the ipa site. i suggest that the fqs read the letter and sign the cards asap.

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows
B. Dylan
Subterranean Homesick Blues

1111
03-14-2010, 04:25 PM
1111,

If you have not read the Katz letter I recommend you do so. You court them all you want, I prefer to let the EB speak for me.

It legalizes our mediocre offer in court...that's it! Are we not able to offer them more? If they turn it down, then Katz away at your hearts content. But if they accept our offer.....then it doesn't matter.

Recommend not posting anymore since the EB speaks for you....;)

UPS1856
03-14-2010, 04:45 PM
Just think, if you can find enough gullible Sups to "trust" the IPA with their careers and get enough returned cards, that would be perfect. You put up a token fight for DOH integration, then staple them to the bottom. "Sorry guys - we tried. (Suckers! - snicker, snicker)" BT then saves 160 jobs for the bottom current membership and forces the company to furlough the management pilots. Very cleaver, yet very transparent.


DOH puts ALL (99% sure) the FQS'a ahead of the bottom 300.

I cant say that we dont have our problems, but you have absolutely no basis to go after anything. I think you should try and get your own house in order, become more productive and work on growing the business, so we need more pilots. That would serve us ALL better. :)

If we wanted to become more productive, we would join management. :)
A lot to be said about being a line slug.

When is the last time, you saw a 502 area code, let it go to voice mail, knowing you are OFF the clock.

We don't serve the same Master, we just get paid by him.

weatherman
03-14-2010, 04:55 PM
it won't be long. reports of lots of cards already sent in. also recent comments from rb while he was out flying this weekend also indicate that he's offended and feels it is a done deal.

FR8TFLYER
03-14-2010, 05:35 PM
Are you personal friends with RB, if so I am sorry to hear that? He is still in PVG as of Sunday evening, have youi been talking with him on Skype?

notadog
03-15-2010, 04:00 AM
Fact check: IPA has publicly presented DOH as their official IPA position. All the Feds and legal folks have these public documents. We all know that the IPA cannot then go play suckerpunch. Nice try at obfuscation, but it is beyond that point now and everyone knows DOH will stand as the legal reference point of the IPA.

Fact check. The "position" of the IPA is not binding in any way. The fact is that after the NMB determines whether the FQMs are covered employees in class and craft, the method of accretion of those employees is determined by negotiation between the company and the union. The FQMs have to trust the IPA will follow through.

DOH is not as simple as some seem to think. It will require negotiation.

CactusCrew
03-15-2010, 04:58 AM
Fact check. The "position" of the IPA is not binding in any way. The fact is that after the NMB determines whether the FQMs are covered employees in class and craft, the method of accretion of those employees is determined by negotiation between the company and the union. The FQMs have to trust the IPA will follow through.

DOH is not as simple as some seem to think. It will require negotiation.

What the IPA's position represents, is that when it comes to placing the FQS on our seniority list, it will be their own company pushing to place them anywhere but DOH.

Retalitory management, not in the least ... :rolleyes:

SaltyDog
03-15-2010, 02:01 PM
Fact check. The "position" of the IPA is not binding in any way. The fact is that after the NMB determines whether the FQMs are covered employees in class and craft, the method of accretion of those employees is determined by negotiation between the company and the union. The FQMs have to trust the IPA will follow through.

DOH is not as simple as some seem to think. It will require negotiation.

Our statement are compatible. No disagreement. However, UPS management is officially on record as stating that FQS' will be placed at the bottom and that they are not 'crewmembers'. Management is the only one whose start of negotiation is to staple on the bottom. Interesting they want to retaliate that way.
IPA has publicly stated would start at DOH. Seems the IPA is already working favorably to accretion that includes that date of hire and all else that goes with current duties. FQM's are all smart folks, cut the chaff, and so are many line pilots. Accretion is aimed at keeping a postion comfortable for your families and job satisfaction level. Why would we want a bunch of dissatisfied members?
Regards from the line.

notadog
03-15-2010, 05:58 PM
Our statement are compatible. No disagreement. However, UPS management is officially on record as stating that FQS' will be placed at the bottom and that they are not 'crewmembers'. Management is the only one whose start of negotiation is to staple on the bottom. Interesting they want to retaliate that way.
IPA has publicly stated would start at DOH. Seems the IPA is already working favorably to accretion that includes that date of hire and all else that goes with current duties. FQM's are all smart folks, cut the chaff, and so are many line pilots. Accretion is aimed at keeping a postion comfortable for your families and job satisfaction level. Why would we want a bunch of dissatisfied members?
Regards from the line.

UPS management points out that the Agreement between the IPA and the company clearly defines (1) the definition of "crewmember", which specifically excludes management crewmembers (aka FQMs), and (2) clearly defines how crewmembers are placed on the seniority list. The company may have a valid argument that the President of the IPA simply cannot guarantee placement anywhere other than the bottom of the list without first amending Article 2 and Article 8 of the contract. An amendment to the contract would require agreement from both parties, (and a vote) and it sure doesn't look like UPS is interested in negotiating the issue. The letter from Mr. Casey is an interesting read, and I would assume they have done their homework.

The NMB will only certify the FQMs eligibility under class and craft. They will not negotiate or order accretion. That is up to the IPA and UPS to negotiate. If the company chooses to not negotiate, the FQMs could be in limbo for a long time. Will they roll those dice? We'll see.

Jonathan E
03-15-2010, 07:57 PM
I'll go out on a limb here. If we win the "craft and Class" issue (and we will), won't the company be excluded? It will be negoiated (with NMB help) between the IPA and the FQMs. Just like DAL and NW unions merging. To the NMB, how or why would it be any of UPS's concern?

767pilot
03-15-2010, 09:58 PM
I'll go out on a limb here. If we win the "craft and Class" issue (and we will), won't the company be excluded? It will be negoiated (with NMB help) between the IPA and the FQMs. Just like DAL and NW unions merging. To the NMB, how or why would it be any of UPS's concern?

yes and no. The company is out of it but there need not be any merger. If we sat down to negotiate, who would the legal representative of a non union pilot force be? There is none. I'd expect our generosity would be over if we have to go at it from that direction. There is a better deal on the table now.

notadog
03-16-2010, 04:54 AM
yes and no. The company is out of it but there need not be any merger. If we sat down to negotiate, who would the legal representative of a non union pilot force be? There is none. I'd expect our generosity would be over if we have to go at it from that direction. There is a better deal on the table now.

You are right on. This is the best deal the FQMs are going to get, and they should be happy to get a seniority number where ever it may be on the list. If we petition the NMB and get the jobs covered, then we own them, and the FQMs can go write bulletins while IPA pilots fly airplanes.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if a bunch of managers who have been screwing us for years gets IPA representation. They don't deserve it, particularly the ones who gave up their numbers to go to management.

My bet is we won't see the FQMs achieve 50% +1. Then the fun really begins.

notadog
03-16-2010, 05:03 AM
I'll go out on a limb here. If we win the "craft and Class" issue (and we will), won't the company be excluded? It will be negoiated (with NMB help) between the IPA and the FQMs. Just like DAL and NW unions merging. To the NMB, how or why would it be any of UPS's concern?

Because we have a contract in place that permits the FQMs to do some of the work that we own.

Here's the issue. The IPA is gambling here, too. We already own the flying jobs, with the exception of those FQM jobs permitted by our contract. Read the Scope Article. If the FQMs do not achieve the majority needed, then the IPA can go after the jobs (primarily training and checking), but would have to negotiate the process of filling those jobs with IPA crewmembers. We would gain those positions, but the company would still have the right to MEF and MPF.

The IPA cannot force the FQMs to join the union.

UPSierra
03-17-2010, 04:00 PM
If we win the "craft and Class" issue (and we will), won't the company be excluded?

Please read the 1995 IPA position on Class and Craft that was filed as a legal document IN SUPPORT OF THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT UPS. :eek: The IPA plain and simply hung Dorsey out to dry in court and clearly distanced themselves from the FQS' when Dorsey and his group of supervisors advocated for joining the IPA. In fact, the IPA was completely in bed with the company's position in the class and craft argument. WOW, isn't that special!!!!!

The record is the record and the IPA cannot undo past statements. Revisionism might work in politics, but it will not withstand the legal challenge of the IPA position of 1995 vs. the IPA position of 2010. Besides, one of the three seats held by the NMB is with someone who intimately understands the IPA's whole-hearted support of the management structure and the right for management to maintain flight qualifications and line currency. After all, she spent several years directly mediating the last contract. THE IPA SIGNED AN AGREEMENT RECOGNIZING THIS STRUCTURE, and if anyone thinks that the contract is not a legally binding document in this argument, then don't be surprised when you exhaust your treasury on Mr. Katz's legal fees with nothing to show for it.

Another point...There is no way that FQS' can trust the IPA to fight for DOH. We all know the IPA will immediately settle for stapling them to the bottom because that is what the CONTRACTS states. Anything different will requires years of legal challenges and UPS will not be on the side of the new IPA members.

Let's be honest...Can anyone reading this post provide one example in the history of our industry when "pilot group A" aggressively fought for "pilot group B's" seniority rights to ensure that pilot group B has a higher seniority than pilot group A? Once the IPA gets the required number of cards, they will have all they need. There is absolutely no motivation to represent your new members, except to wish them well during their furlough.

Nice try guys, but it ain't happening! You will get a few, but not many. My guess is <10%. Most FQS' see this as a classic example of a pending case of "bait and switch."

Slice
03-17-2010, 04:11 PM
Please read the 1995 IPA position on Class and Craft that was filed as a legal document IN SUPPORT OF THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT UPS. :.

Nice try guys, but it ain't happening! You will get a few, but not many. My guess is <10%. Most FQS' see this as a classic example of a pending case of "bait and switch."

Well, then I hope you get what's coming to you. I hope you get a free CDL as a package car manager.:rolleyes:

767pilot
03-17-2010, 05:58 PM
we will be arguing that the character and amount of flying done by the managers if far in excess of that which was agreed to back then, Will we win? Who knows. As for group A fighting for group B, this is such a clusterf of a situation, anything goes. I don't think you can find comparables or precedents anywhere else. Our group is convinced that we are going to have to give a lot, but in the end it will be worth our while.

CactusCrew
03-17-2010, 07:17 PM
we will be arguing that the character and amount of flying done by the managers if far in excess of that which was agreed to back then, Will we win? Who knows. As for group A fighting for group B, this is such a clusterf of a situation, anything goes. I don't think you can find comparables or precedents anywhere else. Our group is convinced that we are going to have to give a lot, but in the end it will be worth our while.

Another factor is that while the numbers of FQS increased over the years, so have the numbers of IPA members. In the last few years, the ratio of FQS to IPA continues to increase ... and when a furlough occurs the numbers will go off the scale. I think an argument about the serious change in the status quo will have serious merit with the NMB when the first furlough occurs.

Signal Delta
03-17-2010, 09:41 PM
Amazing what one can find on this here interweb. I know I saved & printed this beauty before it disappears. You would think someone of his advertised legal credentials would know better than to openly threaten his fellow management (expletive deleted) for signing their cards. But, you can't beat a donkey into a horse.....

The lamenting of an ACP (http://www.scribd.com/doc/28414208/Timur-J-Housum-Letter-UPS-IPA)

navigatro
03-18-2010, 01:13 AM
TH uses words like "manage" and "lead" to describe FQS duties.

I don't think they do any of that.

They don't even fit the definition of supervisor:

Supervisors typically are responsible for their direct reports' progress and productivity in the organization. Supervision often includes conducting basic management skills (decision making, problem solving, planning, delegation and meeting management), organizing teams, noticing the need for and designing new job roles in the group, hiring new employees, training new employees, employee performance management (setting goals, observing and giving feedback, addressing performance issues, firing employees, etc.) and ensuring conformance to personnel policies and other internal regulations.

All they do is flying and training/checking and assorted clerical duties, and some projects.

TH sounds all idealistic about why he left the union and went to "management".

My opinion is that the true reason is that he wanted the $$$, instant captain, and to circumvent seniority.

navigatro
03-18-2010, 01:27 AM
Please read the 1995 IPA position on Class and Craft that was filed as a legal document IN SUPPORT OF THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT UPS. :eek: The IPA plain and simply hung Dorsey out to dry in court and clearly distanced themselves from the FQS' when Dorsey and his group of supervisors advocated for joining the IPA. In fact, the IPA was completely in bed with the company's position in the class and craft argument. WOW, isn't that special!!!!!

Nice try guys, but it ain't happening! You will get a few, but not many. My guess is <10%. Most FQS' see this as a classic example of a pending case of "bait and switch."


I had a long talk with my uncle who is a former labor and contract attorney, and is now a Judge. Granted, he did not give the case due diligence. That said, his opinion was that once there was a furlough, and FQS flew as "replacements", then it was a whole new ball of wax. The "past" is not relevant because the facts have changed.

Airbum
03-18-2010, 05:02 AM
I had a long talk with my uncle who is a former labor and contract attorney, and is now a Judge. Granted, he did not give the case due diligence. That said, his opinion was that once there was a furlough, and FQS flew as "replacements", then it was a whole new ball of wax. The "past" is not relevant because the facts have changed.

and that is the issue in which the status quo will have clearly changed.

When ups furloughs and replaces those pilots with non union workers we as a union have no option but to attempt to stop replacement workers. If not standby for all ipa members to be furloughed and replaced by "mgt" pilots.

Roberto
03-18-2010, 06:45 AM
and that is the issue in which the status quo will have clearly changed. When ups furloughs and replaces those pilots with non union workers...

Will UPS build schedules with managers in the bid books? (No) Will there be any non-contractual amount of opentime remaining after the lines are constructed and bid books are published? (Probably not) Will there be insufficient reserve coverage compared to the requirements in the contract and after the VTO lines are built? (Probably not) Will the reserves fly more? (Yes) Will there be some management flying to cover trips that fall through the cracks? (Yes, but this has been past practice for over 20 years.) If there is an increase in management flying, will it be because IPA members have voluntarily declined to participate in historical patterns, or because UPS has decided to replace IPA crews with management crews?

Signal Delta
03-18-2010, 07:37 AM
TH uses words like "manage" and "lead" to describe FQS duties.

Maybe he "managed" to eat lots of "lead" paint chips?

b2pilot186
03-18-2010, 09:19 AM
Will UPS build schedules with managers in the bid books? (No) Will there be any non-contractual amount of opentime remaining after the lines are constructed and bid books are published? (Probably not) Will there be insufficient reserve coverage compared to the requirements in the contract and after the VTO lines are built? (Probably not) Will the reserves fly more? (Yes) Will there be some management flying to cover trips that fall through the cracks? (Yes, but this has been past practice for over 20 years.) If there is an increase in management flying, will it be because IPA members have voluntarily declined to participate in historical patterns, or because UPS has decided to replace IPA crews with management crews?

Not a bad thought train but you lost me with the last sentence. Following your pattern, it should have said..."WILL there be an increase in management flying? Yes, because the company will furlough IPA crewmembers, effectively replacing them through increased MEF."

Roberto, I know you don't think OT/JA bans are effective. They probably aren't consistently. As time goes on, volume picks up, FQS's start running up their flight hour totals, more crewmembers are furloughed, more retirements happen...something will have to give. You've got to admit that the company won't be able to operate like this forever...there's a tipping point. When that will be is a legitimate matter for debate, but for the tipping to happen the pushing has to start somewhere.

The debate about OT/JA effectiveness is academic at best anyway...The ban is in effect and that train has left the station.

B2P

Roberto
03-18-2010, 11:32 AM
...As time goes on, volume picks up, FQS's start running up their flight hour totals, more crewmembers are furloughed, more retirements happen...something will have to give. You've got to admit that the company won't be able to operate like this forever...there's a tipping point...

I agree. And with luck volume will pick up, possibly reduce the furloughs, and hopefully return those furloughed asap.

However, with all that is in the works, and as a Glenn Beck admirer <g>, my confidence in the future is at a lifetime low right now. Unfortunately, I think a crash or Jimmy Carter stagflation is in the cards, but I have no idea when it will happen. Would anyone be surprised if the stock market fell 30-40% tomorrow? Or pick another day... next week, next month? Wishin' and hoping I'm wrong.

Airbum
03-18-2010, 12:46 PM
Will there be some management flying to cover trips that fall through the cracks? (Yes, but this has been past practice for over 20 years.) If there is an increase in management flying, will it be because IPA members have voluntarily declined to participate in historical patterns, or because UPS has decided to replace IPA crews with management crews?

There will be a planned increase in MEF flying with no contractual limits as UPS knew and planned on a open time ja ban per the current contract. Yes, UPS decided to replace IPA crews with non union pilots.

The intentional use of non union workers while laying off union workers is line crossed we as a union can not allow without a fight. If not stand by for non union pilots to be hired while we have union members on the street.