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View Full Version : Latest O'Gram - kidding me...


AirHead328
03-11-2010, 06:39 AM
"Once we get the flying hour projections for the next year, we will post the next bid. Best guess is first week of April. Expect excesses in the 727 and Airbus which might result in secondary awards in the 757 and 777. Although our plans call for a HKG MD domicile in addition to the current Bus domicile, the execution date has not been determined."

Didn't we just excess a whole bunch of people out of the 777 and 757 into the 727 with all the excess bids last year...exactly what I thought it was A BUMP AND FLUSH!

FedEx is a great company, but FedEx Flight Management is run by a bunch of idiots who are making some of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen...least of which is the fact that our Safety and CRM programs are 15 years behind the rest of the industry. How about we get some managers that have worked at another 121 carrier at some point in their career and quit the "good old boy network to the top"???

Sorry about the rant, but thanks for listening! :)


757upspilot
03-11-2010, 06:48 AM
"Once we get the flying hour projections for the next year, we will post the next bid. Best guess is first week of April. Expect excesses in the 727 and Airbus which might result in secondary awards in the 757 and 777. Although our plans call for a HKG MD domicile in addition to the current Bus domicile, the execution date has not been determined."

Didn't we just excess a whole bunch of people out of the 777 and 757 into the 727 with all the excess bids last year...exactly what I thought it was A BUMP AND FLUSH!

FedEx is a great company, but FedEx Flight Management is run by a bunch of idiots who are making some of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen...least of which is the fact that our Safety and CRM programs are 15 years behind the rest of the industry. How about we get some managers that have worked at another 121 carrier at some point in their career and quit the "good old boy network to the top"???

Sorry about the rant, but thanks for listening! :)

We have a bunch you can have . No charge:)

FEXFNG
03-11-2010, 06:56 AM
How about we hire some chief pilots that have actually been line Captains at some point in their career. Not flex instructors that start as FO's and just upgrade while they're there.


Gunter
03-11-2010, 07:00 AM
I really don't think an excess out of the 727 or Bus will result in 'secondary awards to the 757 and 777'.

I think OR meant to say some might bid to relieve excess and go where their seniority allows, which includes the 757 and 777.

Based on that I think the vacancy bid for 757 will be interesting to watch. Might not provide opportunities for very many.

NotsoFast
03-11-2010, 07:29 AM
Is everyone ready to play another game of Training Roulette? I'm putting my chips on Black11.:cool:

MaydayMark
03-11-2010, 08:28 AM
I can't wait for another excess bid so that more "over 60" folks can bump me down a few more rungs in the seniority ladder!*? Hope it happens soon ... :eek:

Jetjok
03-11-2010, 08:42 AM
Mark,

I'm sure that the company has looked at their business with an eye toward posting an excess bid, just for the sole purpose of bumping your skinny butt down the seniority ladder. Oh, boo hoo. Another example of a captain only thinking of himself. Gee, what a surprise from you.

JJ

Lindy
03-11-2010, 09:00 AM
This is another excess bid, but he stated seats are available in the 777 and 757. Instead of posting PRIMARY Vacancies, the company is playing "excess roulette" and hoping enough individuals will "bid to relieve" excess.

Basically, it is a move for many 727 pilots to 757 (another training cycle anyone?). And a few pilots will find their way to the 777. The interesting excess will be any pilots to ANC or LAX and the bottom of the MD-11 lists...(again).


During the last excess bid, was any pilot excessed off the 757 aircraft? 777?

990Convair
03-11-2010, 09:08 AM
This is another excess bid, but he stated seats are available in the 777 and 757. Instead of posting PRIMARY Vacancies, the company is playing "excess roulette" and hoping enough individuals will "bid to relieve" excess.

Basically, it is a move for many 727 pilots to 757 (another training cycle anyone?). And a few pilots will find their way to the 777. The interesting excess will be any pilots to ANC or LAX and the bottom of the MD-11 lists...(again).


During the last excess bid, was any pilot excessed off the 757 aircraft? 777?

so basically the only people that get to fill the growing 757/777 fleets are those that are in the shrinking fleets A300/727. Even though you might be the number 1 757/777 FO....you may have someone junior to you taking your upgrade because you are on the wrong jet. This is another abrogation of our seniority. The company should not be allowed to exclude pilots from bidding for these growing fleets solely because they aren't sitting in a certain diminishing fleet type.

The company should excess 1 from every seat so WE ALL have an equal opportunity to, as they say "bid what we want to fly".

Gunter
03-11-2010, 09:16 AM
During the last excess bid, was any pilot excessed off the 757 aircraft?

Yes. That's why we need to send replacements.

Excess roulette it is. Place your bets.

You know the company wants senior 727 FOs to move up, right? Considering that, previous and upcoming excess bids make more sense. This know no other method to motivate them to move.

DaRaiders
03-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Yes. That's why we need to send replacements.

Excess roulette it is. Place your bets.

You know the company wants senior 727 FOs to move up, right? Considering that, previous and upcoming excess bids make more sense. This know no other method to motivate them to move.

The senior 27 FOs will not move until the bitter end. Most of them are flying to and from their home town every night. Others will want the extended vacation the 10 guys got.

DaRaiders
03-11-2010, 09:54 AM
so basically the only people that get to fill the growing 757/777 fleets are those that are in the shrinking fleets A300/727. Even though you might be the number 1 757/777 FO....you may have someone junior to you taking your upgrade because you are on the wrong jet. This is another abrogation of our seniority. The company should not be allowed to exclude pilots from bidding for these growing fleets solely because they aren't sitting in a certain diminishing fleet type.

The company should excess 1 from every seat so WE ALL have an equal opportunity to, as they say "bid what we want to fly".

If I am reading things correctly....yes. For example, most of the very most junior 27 FOs are senior to the most junior 57 FO. If they get excessed they can bid whatever seat their seniorty can hold. In this case, the 57 FO seat. So, I think you are on to something. It may very well be that the only pilots that can move on this bid are the ones from the shrinking fleets....regardless of seniority. :mad:

FDXLAG
03-11-2010, 10:00 AM
This is another excess bid, but he stated seats are available in the 777 and 757. Instead of posting PRIMARY Vacancies, the company is playing "excess roulette" and hoping enough individuals will "bid to relieve" excess.

Basically, it is a move for many 727 pilots to 757 (another training cycle anyone?). And a few pilots will find their way to the 777. The interesting excess will be any pilots to ANC or LAX and the bottom of the MD-11 lists...(again).


During the last excess bid, was any pilot excessed off the 757 aircraft? 777?


Maybe, but as a 727 F/O if I elect to bid to relieve I can go to any jet my seniority will hold right? No need for primary vacancy. Why would I go to the 75 for the same pay? Bus to MEM sounds better to me. The only thing I cant do is create an excess at an FDA.

So my prediction is any bid they have will have 1 hkg capt associated with it. That will spank the POP guys.

JetJocF14
03-11-2010, 10:48 AM
How about we get some managers that have worked at another 121 carrier at some point in their career and quit the "good old boy network to the top"???[/FONT]

Can't argue with that....................

AFW_MD11
03-11-2010, 10:53 AM
Maybe, but as a 727 F/O if I elect to bid to relieve I can go to any jet my seniority will hold right? No need for primary vacancy. Why would I go to the 75 for the same pay? Bus to MEM sounds better to me. The only thing I cant do is create an excess at an FDA.

So my prediction is any bid they have will have 1 hkg capt associated with it. That will spank the POP guys.

how would that work, exactly?

the most junior HKG Capt is sen. #3867

there are approx. 120 +/- 27FOs that are JUNIOR to that bottom HKG Capt.

I'm just not following the cancelling of the virtual training letter and canx of POP theory?

a little help please?

Lindy
03-11-2010, 11:05 AM
Maybe the Bean Counters thought an excess would be less expensive than a Primary/Excess?

Hypothetical:

40 727 F/Os excessed = 40 Training Cycles

As FDXLAG pointed out:

1 Excessed 727 F/O could bid Airbus F/O = 1 Training Cycle
additional excessed Bus F/O bids MD-11 F/O = 2 TCs

now, fat on MD-11 F/Os, (not yet announced MD-11 excess),
MD-11 F/O now excessed bids 727 = 3 TCs

now another 727 F/O excessed to 757 = 4 TCs

instead of a "one-for-one" training, it could possibly be up to 4 training cycles per each pilot excessed off the Airbus

(FWIW, the "junior" Bus F/Os are senior to the bottom +/- 60 MD-11 F/Os)

One bid, including Primary and Excess would be less training and would not create the perception of an abrogation of seniority.

My money is on Red 57 !

FDXLAG
03-11-2010, 11:09 AM
First of all anyone on the pop list would have to keep hkg capt on their list in order to stay on the pop list.

They could have 10 hkg capts on the bid knowing they will never train and or move them over when the hkg md base opens. Or better yet, why not over stock HKG capts on the bus, then when the MD base opens you can excess the bottom hkg Bus capts.

Your assumption is the bottom guys will be forced off the bottom of the 72, I think it is much more likely mid seniority bus and 72 capt and f/o will move and shuffle training letters all over. Where do you think the bottom 30 bus captains will go if forced off?

777 slots will go senior, 757 slots not so much.

AFW_MD11
03-11-2010, 11:29 AM
"Once we get the flying hour projections for the next year, we will post the next bid. Best guess is first week of April. Expect excesses in the 727 and Airbus which might result in secondary awards in the 757 and 777. Although our plans call for a HKG MD domicile in addition to the current Bus domicile, the execution date has not been determined."

Didn't we just excess a whole bunch of people out of the 777 and 757 into the 727 with all the excess bids last year...exactly what I thought it was A BUMP AND FLUSH!

FedEx is a great company, but FedEx Flight Management is run by a bunch of idiots who are making some of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen...least of which is the fact that our Safety and CRM programs are 15 years behind the rest of the industry. How about we get some managers that have worked at another 121 carrier at some point in their career and quit the "good old boy network to the top"???

Sorry about the rant, but thanks for listening! :)

where to begin.....??

how can a "secondary vacancy" result unless there are PRIMARY vacancies offered first (in those seats 777 and 757)?

being EXCESSED into the 757 or 777 is a different animal entirely than a secondary vacancy fill.

conclusion.....either 1) "O" doesn't fully understand the process......or 2) there will be Primary Vacancies offered in the 777 and 757 along with the Excess in the 727 and Airbus.

or both 1) and 2) are correct?? guess we'll see when it's actually posted.

AFW_MD11
03-11-2010, 11:38 AM
My guess is that if the excess gets down to those who cannot hold something else, then it stops there.(You stay where you are) If you cannot hold it, you cannot bid to relieve the excess or get excessed. By the way, HKG is not an involuntary option.

This makes sense....and also might indicate that there will be Vacancies as well as Excesses on the same bid.

There's gotta be a way to get some of those very most junior folks out of the fattest seat (727 SO?)

doesn't there?

pwdrhound
03-11-2010, 11:48 AM
how would that work, exactly?

the most junior HKG Capt is sen. #3867

there are approx. 120 +/- 27FOs that are JUNIOR to that bottom HKG Capt.

I'm just not following the cancelling of the virtual training letter and canx of POP theory?

a little help please?
Why wouldn't the 727f/o's that are senior to the most junior HKG captain just bid HKG cap at 100% to relieve excess and get the POP? This is exactly what I did on the last MEM Bus excess and was placed on the virtual POP letter with POP scheduled to start 01/11. I'm around seniority 2900 and still have about 15 guys ahead of me on the virtual letter. You can bid to relieve excess to any position your seniority allows you to hold but you can't create and excess in an FDA, thus POP.

Good Beer
03-11-2010, 12:03 PM
My best guess would be a "bump and flush excess" from the Bus and 727 L and R seats with 1 excess from every other seat except 777, 757, HKG, and 727 back seat. This allows them to fill a need in the 777 and 757 while drawing down the seats they want. It also prevents peeps in HKG from bidding out since the initial cadres 2 year is up. It would be a sneaky way to fill what are primary vacancies, but what do you expect.

I thought that there was barrier to excessing from a FDA (requires an actual draw down in AC or something to that effect) but I may be wrong.
A single excess from L seat HKG would not necessarily kill POP since any of the other 52 could bid to relieve.

Good Beer
03-11-2010, 12:12 PM
Why wouldn't the 727f/o's that are senior to the most junior HKG captain just bid HKG cap at 100% to relieve excess and get the POP? This is exactly what I did on the last MEM Bus excess and was placed on the virtual POP letter with POP scheduled to start 01/11. I'm around seniority 2900 and still have about 15 guys ahead of me on the virtual letter. You can bid to relieve excess to any position your seniority allows you to hold but you can't create and excess in an FDA, thus POP.

For the same reason that more people didn't do it last time, the lovely settlement agreement that was signed by webb on his way out the door to 777 training. By receiving the POP you are basically giving up a lot of choice about what you can bid if you want to keep it or avoid repayment. That being said if you are willing to go where ever when ever, then go for it.

990Convair
03-11-2010, 12:26 PM
Maybe the Bean Counters thought an excess would be less expensive than a Primary/Excess?

Hypothetical:

40 727 F/Os excessed = 40 Training Cycles

As FDXLAG pointed out:

1 Excessed 727 F/O could bid Airbus F/O = 1 Training Cycle
additional excessed Bus F/O bids MD-11 F/O = 2 TCs

now, fat on MD-11 F/Os, (not yet announced MD-11 excess),
MD-11 F/O now excessed bids 727 = 3 TCs

now another 727 F/O excessed to 757 = 4 TCs

instead of a "one-for-one" training, it could possibly be up to 4 training cycles per each pilot excessed off the Airbus

(FWIW, the "junior" Bus F/Os are senior to the bottom +/- 60 MD-11 F/Os)

One bid, including Primary and Excess would be less training and would not create the perception of an abrogation of seniority.

My money is on Red 57 !

Hey Now! PC says "There are no costs associated with training cycles since we own the training facility"!

Wildmanny
03-11-2010, 12:47 PM
Does anyone have an idea how all this is going to be affected as soon as we figure out which end is up concerning Flag ops? Wouldn't this be academic assuming we're going to need a ton of guys in the widebodies just to handle the new rules?

Just wondering...

WM :mad:

Gunter
03-11-2010, 01:37 PM
With BUV and SAM there is a renewed emphasis on not having extra crewmembers on widebody pay. Or on 727 CA or FO pay for that matter.

If the company has to pay buy up, they would rather do it in the cheap seats. All but 727 SO are targets.

FreightDawgyDog
03-11-2010, 01:55 PM
You guys crack me up! When management runs out of idea's how to best legally exploit the crew force via excesses, they float a balloon and let the APC experts figure out how to do it for them! In the words of Pogo.."I have met the bean-counters and they are us!"

990Convair
03-11-2010, 02:21 PM
Does anyone have an idea how all this is going to be affected as soon as we figure out which end is up concerning Flag ops? Wouldn't this be academic assuming we're going to need a ton of guys in the widebodies just to handle the new rules?

Just wondering...

WM :mad:

Manny,

It would not surprise me one bit if the company sought a FLAG/SUPPLEMENTAL duality to their certificate with intentions of only dispatching certain international flights under flag, and the rest of the airline under supplemental.

They already have us carrying far less gas than 2 years ago. Perhaps we won't need as many as we would think? Just a thought....hopefully.

Sluggo_63
03-11-2010, 02:30 PM
Manny,

It would not surprise me one bit if the company sought a FLAG/SUPPLEMENTAL duality to their certificate with intentions of only dispatching certain international flights under flag, and the rest of the airline under supplemental.

They already have us carrying far less gas than 2 years ago. Perhaps we won't need as many as we would think? Just a thought....hopefully.FWIW, at the last LCA meeting, I believe "O" said that the FAA would not let us do this. Either we're Flag or not Flag, they won't let us split the certificate. We may be able to keep supplemental for tech flights, I think he said.

Lifizgud
03-11-2010, 02:33 PM
FWIW, at the last LCA meeting, I believe "O" said that the FAA would not let us do this. Either we're Flag or not Flag, they won't let us split the certificate. We may be able to keep supplemental for tech flights, I think he said.

I guess at least it's comforting to know that they are ASKING the QUESTION...:mad:

tennesseeflyboy
03-11-2010, 02:58 PM
Is there a response to this mess from the Union ? Why is it, that the Company is allowed to have such "flexibility" with us ? To the guys that are ****ing and moaning about seniority here, go onto next ........................ this is the cards we have been dealt, I don't like 'em either but it ain't goin' away.

DLax85
03-11-2010, 03:12 PM
FWIW, at the last LCA meeting, I believe "O" said that the FAA would not let us do this. Either we're Flag or not Flag, they won't let us split the certificate. We may be able to keep supplemental for tech flights, I think he said.

When was the last LCA meeting "O" attended?

MaydayMark
03-11-2010, 03:29 PM
FT.com / Companies / US & Canada - FedEx warns on US recovery (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/588e8cae-2d48-11df-9c5b-00144feabdc0.html)

Just in time for an excess bid and upcoming contract negotiations? Very convenient?

42GO
03-11-2010, 04:32 PM
I can't wait for another excess bid so that more "over 60" folks can bump me down a few more rungs in the seniority ladder!*? Hope it happens soon ... :eek:

How bout if they are 55.....is that ok with you?

FDXLAG
03-11-2010, 04:42 PM
How bout if they are 55.....is that ok with you?

The subtlety may be lost on you, but the over 55 guy would not be eligible to bump him simply because his union worked to get the over 55 guy retroactively reinstated. So I imagine he sees a difference.

Sea Pig
03-11-2010, 05:38 PM
FT.com / Companies / US & Canada - FedEx warns on US recovery (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/588e8cae-2d48-11df-9c5b-00144feabdc0.html)

Just in time for an excess bid and upcoming contract negotiations? Very convenient?

Surprisingly, not everything senior management does is solely to mess with the heads of 4700 pilots. This is Fred arguing for tax code changes to improve the climate for business investment. The $$$ in play make our contract negotiations look like penny poker.

2005 Blues
03-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Free beer and chicken wings at the Homeboy Suites. I'm entirely too wasted to figure out what the hell you guys are talking about. All I know is that I am still fukd.

AerisArmis
03-11-2010, 09:07 PM
It's smart to run the excess first. After the excess, they'll know the number of unfilled 757 and 777 seats for the next vacancy bid. If they did it in reverse, they would end up out of balance......again. We have 2 growing fleets and 2 (or 3) shrinking fleets and apparently a new FDA type. Takes some skill and luck to get the right rear ends in the right seats. We'll all be witness to how well they pulled it off.

Wildmanny
03-11-2010, 09:14 PM
Free beer and chicken wings at the Homeboy Suites. I'm entirely too wasted to figure out what the hell you guys are talking about. All I know is that I am still fukd.


Somebody put this guy to bed! He must have his oral tomorrow! :D

Sluggo_63
03-12-2010, 02:57 AM
When was the last LCA meeting "O" attended?Feb 18, 2010

Gunter
03-12-2010, 04:55 AM
I think we need the supplemental for charters.

The desire is probably to do one or more charters and flag ops on the same pairing. With the different rest rules it gets complicated.

Lucky7
03-12-2010, 05:24 AM
I can't believe you guys made it through the O gram. I had to go get it from the normal storage folder the grams have taken since the APLA letter a while back.

Excess with secondaries, Notes must have got jumbled when the "use plan A to fill HKG MD seats" meeting was concluded. We will continue to train you for less money until you go to HKG.

DLax85
03-13-2010, 10:42 AM
Feb 18, 2010

Thanks --- cause none of the mgt types showed up for the one on Feb 11th.



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