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View Full Version : Voluntary Furlough


FliFast
03-11-2010, 08:50 PM
Anyone privy to discussions that UPS will offer voluntary furloughes to help mitigate involuntary furloughs...especially if someone has a job offer elsewhere ?


Buck92
03-11-2010, 10:07 PM
Anyone privy to discussions that UPS will offer voluntary furloughes to help mitigate involuntary furloughs...especially if someone has a job offer elsewhere ?

Doesn't that kinda fly in the face of the other current rumor, "UPS will honor any resignation of seniority number?" H3ll of a deal. Love the mentality: we're gonna furlough you, but if you dare get another job, DON'T bother coming back!

VegasBoy
03-11-2010, 11:23 PM
One has already surrendered his number.
I hear he had an earful with the ACP about integrity and why he chose not to work here anymore.


weatherman
03-12-2010, 01:08 AM
i wonder if it's the same guy that i know about. not a doubt in my mind that ups will lose more pilots as this charade keeps up. that's not even to mention the amount of guys that they 'lost' for good, even if they do continue to work here.

i've never seen a more bitter and unified group than the bottom guys here at ups. ups will never recoup the cost of the misery that they put those guys through. whatever they hoped to gain by all this must be worth something on paper, that's for sure. in reality they will never pay for it though.

CactusCrew
03-12-2010, 04:16 AM
Anyone privy to discussions that UPS will offer voluntary furloughes to help mitigate involuntary furloughs...especially if someone has a job offer elsewhere ?

This is all assuming they really want to furlough. Sure they plan on tossing 54 to the street just to get their hands on the RIF language.

And it will cost them dearly, eventually the RIF bidders return to their desired seats and domiciles...

I know what you are asking about FF. A respectable company with integrity that was truly approaching a furlough as a means to reduce crew costs would be all over a voluntary furlough. They might even get some top of the payscale Captains take a few years off to focus on their business and/or toys. It would be a win/win ...

But I find it hard to use respectable and integrity in a description of UPS, especially in regards to their furlough motives. Right on the company video they stated they need CONTRACT CONCESSIONS ... or proceed with a furlough. It really isn't about reducing body count.

furloughman
03-12-2010, 04:18 AM
I agree. It's gonna be tough to win back this bottom 300 crowd... after all we've been through in the last decade with our previous airlines. Looking back, those were pretty darn good jobs compared to this place!

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 06:32 AM
I agree. It's gonna be tough to win back this bottom 300 crowd... after all we've been through in the last decade with our previous airlines. Looking back, those were pretty darn good jobs compared to this place!

Can you elaborate? What airlines? My fiance is dying to get out of the commuters so I'm just wondering what places are good to wait for. Thanks.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 06:33 AM
One has already surrendered his number.
I hear he had an earful with the ACP about integrity and why he chose not to work here anymore.

That's great for him! Where did he get a job?

furloughman
03-12-2010, 07:13 AM
I agree. It's gonna be tough to win back this bottom 300 crowd... after all we've been through in the last decade with our previous airlines. Looking back, those were pretty darn good jobs compared to this place!

Delta. I would go back there if it was possible. Better daytime flying and more secure with ten years seniority.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 07:25 AM
Anyone privy to discussions that UPS will offer voluntary furloughes to help mitigate involuntary furloughs...especially if someone has a job offer elsewhere ?

I heard that they are still taking leaves of abscence requests if anyone wants a long term leave. As for that, and the guy that left, I don't see them changing the 54 or 300 number any.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 07:31 AM
Delta. I would go back there if it was possible. Better daytime flying and more secure with ten years seniority.

That's one of the ones he's looking at. What made you leave after 10 years? Thanks.

P.S. I don't know that I'd use "secure" in the same sentence with any airline these days......LOL

furloughman
03-12-2010, 07:44 AM
That's one of the ones he's looking at. What made you leave after 10 years? Thanks.

P.S. I don't know that I'd use "secure" in the same sentence with any airline these days......LOL

I left for the security of UPS and was hoping to finally provide for my family with no worries. I liked the corporate culture... before Davis. Also, age 65 was not a factor. As you can see, it was a bad decision but it didn't seem so at the time. That's the way it goes!

Buck92
03-12-2010, 07:50 AM
I guess what I don't understand is what behavior UPS is really trying to incentivize by accepting seniority resignations of furloughees... Friend who was furloughed from United told me on his "out brief" with ACP (yeah, I'm sure I can count on one of those here in 9 weeks...not) they basically told him "look, if you take a job that requires resignation from United, go ahead and do it. we'll confirm to them you resigned. then when we start calling back, we'll throw all the resig letters in the trash and call back in reverse seniority order..."

Seems like UPS is just vindictive. I mean, I get put out on the street (by them) and they DON'T want me working anywhere else? Family goes on government assistance I guess? This is really a very strange place. Maybe I'm not what they're looking for... If I get a better deal after finishing grad school, I'd definitely take it over coming back to UPS -- so I guess their disloyalty program is working?!

UPSFO4LIFE
03-12-2010, 08:23 AM
This is really a very strange place.

Understatement of a lifetime!!

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 08:30 AM
I left for the security of UPS and was hoping to finally provide for my family with no worries. I liked the corporate culture... before Davis. Also, age 65 was not a factor. As you can see, it was a bad decision but it didn't seem so at the time. That's the way it goes!

But I thought you said Delta was more secure???? I'm not trying to give you crap. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 08:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is what behavior UPS is really trying to incentivize by accepting seniority resignations of furloughees... Friend who was furloughed from United told me on his "out brief" with ACP (yeah, I'm sure I can count on one of those here in 9 weeks...not) they basically told him "look, if you take a job that requires resignation from United, go ahead and do it. we'll confirm to them you resigned. then when we start calling back, we'll throw all the resig letters in the trash and call back in reverse seniority order..."

Seems like UPS is just vindictive. I mean, I get put out on the street (by them) and they DON'T want me working anywhere else? Family goes on government assistance I guess? This is really a very strange place. Maybe I'm not what they're looking for... If I get a better deal after finishing grad school, I'd definitely take it over coming back to UPS -- so I guess their disloyalty program is working?!

I think the moral of the story is they never did, don't and never will "care" about you (you being an employee of UPS), therefore plan accordingly.

Rocket Bob
03-12-2010, 08:45 AM
I also left Delta after 7 years for the "greener" pastures of UPS. When we left it was DARK, real dark. I'd heard they had 2 months of payroll left when I departed. Fast forward 4 years, and I look fairly stupid, and feel pretty stupid most of the time. Miss the daytime trans cons, and miss the fact that at least Delta pretended to care about you as they were punching you in the face.. Also miss the equity payment that I should have gotten.. But, we'll set the parking brake in 25 years, ok I'll watch the parking brake being set in 25 years and then try and determine whether I made the right decision..

brownie
03-12-2010, 08:51 AM
Delta. I would go back there if it was possible. Better daytime flying and more secure with ten years seniority.

Now i like that. If you think deltoid has more job security please come on over this weekend i have a party and bring that thing you're smoking.:rolleyes:

Rocket Bob
03-12-2010, 08:57 AM
I'd take my chances with 10 years at DAL vs bottom 300 here, you disagree?

brownie
03-12-2010, 09:00 AM
But I thought you said Delta was more secure???? I'm not trying to give you crap. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.

FP, you're pregnant and should stay away any argument and stress on APC, i'll do that dirty job for you until babys out:D See we love you more than you thought.:D

brownie
03-12-2010, 09:03 AM
I'd take my chances with 10 years at DAL vs bottom 300 here, you disagree?

YES. Historically when you get furloughed at passengers you'll stay out 3 to 4 yrs and multiple that by every 10 yr cycle then = to not much career at the majors.

Archie Bunker
03-12-2010, 12:10 PM
I also left Delta after 7 years for the "greener" pastures of UPS. When we left it was DARK, real dark. I'd heard they had 2 months of payroll left when I departed. Fast forward 4 years, and I look fairly stupid, and feel pretty stupid most of the time. Miss the daytime trans cons, and miss the fact that at least Delta pretended to care about you as they were punching you in the face..

Rocket,

I think we had access to the same crystal ball when we bailed on Delta. I thought Mother D was going Chapter 7 liquidation in 2006. Every FO that I talked to at Delta was actively searching for other work starting in late 2005, when the company declared bankruptcy. It was the darkest of times in Delta's history.

I would be celebrating my 10 year anniversary there this August, if I had stayed put. I estimate that I would have 2500-3000 pilots below me on the seniority list right now. I'd probably be flying the 767 international out of LAX, and not dealing with a commute to ANC. Things would be relatively stable compared to what I have experienced at UPS in the last year and a half. Am I having buyer's remorse? Probably.

I always thought that the management-union relations at Delta were adversarial at best, but I never imagined that I'd see the pure unadulterated hatred that exists between the IPA members and UPS management. It's not just adversarial, it's global-thermonuclear war between the two.

Since I've burned all my bridges at Delta, I'm stuck with UPS...and they're stuck with me. For the remainder of my time at Brown, I will be a professional pilot, fly the contract, and nothing else. It's just a job to me now.

Rocket Bob
03-12-2010, 12:17 PM
Agreed on all counts Archie....hindsight is a b****. However, this is also a lesson to those who are thinking about resigning from Brown.. Take a deep breath, take a year or 2 for things to calm down, and don't burn any bridges. It's just a job, but one of the better ones around.

CactusCrew
03-12-2010, 12:28 PM
Ditto Archie,

Just change the name of the previous airline ...

:(

weatherman
03-12-2010, 01:18 PM
i disagree. there's been a sea-change at ups, and it's not been for the better. it's a different management philosophy which isn't going to be good for the pilots that work here. the hatered that we're seeing now is going to simmer for a long time.

i still wonder why i try to figure this place out, because it ultimately defies logic and there's not a doubt in my mind that this place would be out of business in a few months if not for the fact that they've been around for 100 years and can pretty much get away with anything simply on momentum and barriers to entry.

fedex will continue to gain on ups and will ultimately surpass us in every way. i would never in good conscience recommend any pilot to come and work for these thugs and imbeciles in the future.

ymmv

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 02:23 PM
I also left Delta after 7 years for the "greener" pastures of UPS. When we left it was DARK, real dark. I'd heard they had 2 months of payroll left when I departed. Fast forward 4 years, and I look fairly stupid, and feel pretty stupid most of the time. Miss the daytime trans cons, and miss the fact that at least Delta pretended to care about you as they were punching you in the face.. Also miss the equity payment that I should have gotten.. But, we'll set the parking brake in 25 years, ok I'll watch the parking brake being set in 25 years and then try and determine whether I made the right decision..

That sucks. I don't think you look stupid nor should you feel stupid. There is no possible way to foresee what can happen. You make the best decision you can at the time. This career is a total crap shoot. Hopefully things will work out for everyone in the end.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 02:24 PM
FP, you're pregnant and should stay away any argument and stress on APC, i'll do that dirty job for you until babys out:D See we love you more than you thought.:D

Awwwww, shucks! It's actually a stress reliever for me. :D

freightretriever
03-12-2010, 03:44 PM
Agreed on all counts Archie....hindsight is a b****. However, this is also a lesson to those who are thinking about resigning from Brown.. Take a deep breath, take a year or 2 for things to calm down, and don't burn any bridges. It's just a job, but one of the better ones around.

for now.....kind of. :cool:

Jetjok
03-12-2010, 04:25 PM
The only way you can tell if you'll have a successful airline career is to get to the end of it and look backwards. If at that point you're still very satisfied with your choice in career, then I'd say you did really well.

I flew for Pan Am for a little while and then was hired by UPS. Gave my notice at Pan Am, and showed up in Louisville the following Monday to start training. By that very (Monday) afternoon, I was down in the break room, in one of those old telephone enclosures, talking to the chief pilot at Pan Am, asking for my job back. He said "No", and that was that. I lasted a year at UPS and by then my spirits were so low that I probably should have been put on suicide watch. Thankfully my wife talked me into quitting, which I finally did, and a few months later got picked up by FedEx. Despite the fact that I had to stay in the back of the 727 for over 5 years (and all the seniority that I had lost, as this was back in 1989), I had landed in the right place for me. Now that my career is over, I can honestly say that I was just one lucky mother ********r. Skill had virtually nothing to do with it. It was only a matter of timing and pure dumb luck.

The point is that you never know until it's over. So for you guys at the bottom of the list at UPS, take heart, things could still work out well for you. On the other hand, for those of you who are like I was, this might be a good time to look at alternatives.

Best of luck.

JJ

CAVU
03-12-2010, 05:11 PM
Skill had virtually nothing to do with it. It was only a matter of timing and pure dumb luck.

Amen Brother! Same here.

Lineslug
03-12-2010, 05:55 PM
I lasted a year at UPS and by then my spirits were so low that I probably should have been put on suicide watch. Thankfully my wife talked me into quitting, which I finally did, and a few months later got picked up by FedEx.
JJ

Jetjock: I'm not a "grass is greener" type person, but I gotta tell you, after 20 years at UPS, I just wish I had the courage, and luck, that you did. I don't think anyone who has not worked for UPS can really understand the toxic atmosphere at this place.
I've made good money here (thanks to the IPA), but I can honestly say that I will NEVER go one iota out of my way to help the company in any way. I just do my job professionally, nothing more, exactly to the contract and the SOP's. I would not waive the contract for ONE MINUTE, even if it meant the whole sort would have to shut down for the night.
It's sad, but it's definitely a two way street.

767pilot
03-12-2010, 06:01 PM
Amen Brother! Same here.

sign me up for that program too

Swedish Blender
03-12-2010, 06:19 PM
I don't think you look stupid nor should you feel stupid.

This one time in college...:D

Now that I'm blessed on the Bus, maybe I can ride the whale next. Guess we'll find out Monday.:cool:

CL247
03-12-2010, 07:42 PM
Not sure about any official language, but my 1 year PLOA was approved in less than one day. I figure it will carry me into a furlough; I found another job. My only hope is that is helps one guy stay off the street a little while longer.

Freightpuppy
03-12-2010, 11:32 PM
This one time in college...:D

Now that I'm blessed on the Bus, maybe I can ride the whale next. Guess we'll find out Monday.:cool:

I might be right there with ya bro.

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 07:11 AM
To go back to the "Voluntary Furlough". The company rejected this concept when they rejected 120 million in savings via voluntary individual choice cost reductions to the company. They did and do want contract concessions, read the statement from them, they will layoff otherwise. The contract concessions are not going to occur.

767pilot
03-13-2010, 04:54 PM
what's the difference between a voluntary furlough and the ability to take a long term leave of abscence? Cobra and unemployment benefits is all I can think of. Someone is going to collect, I'm not sure why the company would care what name is attached to that, pilot A or pilot B

757upspilot
03-13-2010, 05:09 PM
what's the difference between a voluntary furlough and the ability to take a long term leave of abscence? Cobra and unemployment benefits is all I can think of. Someone is going to collect, I'm not sure why the company would care what name is attached to that, pilot A or pilot B
The difference is they get to use the RIF language .

767pilot
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
The difference is they get to use the RIF language .

you're right, but I don't think that they would get 54 volunteers for furlough and if they did, they'd only have to turn down one request to get the RIF language. Monday should be interesting.

aseweepay
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
I talked with R. B. yesterday and asked him if there was a possibility of a furlough instead program, he said there is nothing official (ie a senior person taking a leave will save a junior guys job), but if people want to take a leave it will be approved. I don't know the numbers, but he said a bunch of guys are already out on leaves and military. According to him (grain of salt inserted here) the only way that a leave of absence would be denied right now is if a large number of pilots (those on the line right now, not sitting at home) request them at the same time....I have the target on my back too and am looking for something else and if I get it, hope to take a leave and hope that helps someone else...interesting times......

Take the above with a grain of salt....you know what they say about moving lips etc....what is said and what is done is often different...

weatherman
03-14-2010, 01:20 AM
Jetjock: I'm not a "grass is greener" type person, but I gotta tell you, after 20 years at UPS, I just wish I had the courage, and luck, that you did. I don't think anyone who has not worked for UPS can really understand the toxic atmosphere at this place.
I've made good money here (thanks to the IPA), but I can honestly say that I will NEVER go one iota out of my way to help the company in any way. I just do my job professionally, nothing more, exactly to the contract and the SOP's. I would not waive the contract for ONE MINUTE, even if it meant the whole sort would have to shut down for the night.
It's sad, but it's definitely a two way street.


there is one simple reason why it is so miserable to work for united parcel service airlines, and that is because of the managers. they don't know how to run an airline, and they think that they can run it like a trucking company.

i hope potential pilots go back and read these posts when we do start hiring again, because like everything else at this company, nothing will ever change until ups cannot move the boxes. when people stop applying to ups airlines, they may be forced to change how they treat us. and we all know that people will always apply to work here because ups pays well. sadly, those of us here will be stuck with the working conditions until we retire.

the ipa is strong and makes it bearable. i cannot imagine the working conditions if not for the ipa.

CactusCrew
03-14-2010, 03:44 AM
I talked with R. B. yesterday and asked him if there was a possibility of a furlough instead program, he said there is nothing official (ie a senior person taking a leave will save a junior guys job), but if people want to take a leave it will be approved. I don't know the numbers, but he said a bunch of guys are already out on leaves and military. According to him (grain of salt inserted here) the only way that a leave of absence would be denied right now is if a large number of pilots (those on the line right now, not sitting at home) request them at the same time....I have the target on my back too and am looking for something else and if I get it, hope to take a leave and hope that helps someone else...interesting times......

Take the above with a grain of salt....you know what they say about moving lips etc....what is said and what is done is often different...

The problem with UPS and them not acknowledging the benefit of a voluntary furlough is that they will most likely grant LOAs at their discretion and STILL furlough 300 of us.

If there were a voluntary furlough program (the actual topic of this thread) in place, it would be a one for one exchange and each volunteer would reduce the involuntary number.

:(

Freightpuppy
03-14-2010, 07:03 AM
there is one simple reason why it is so miserable to work for united parcel service airlines, and that is because of the managers. they don't know how to run an airline, and they think that they can run it like a trucking company.

i hope potential pilots go back and read these posts when we do start hiring again, because like everything else at this company, nothing will ever change until ups cannot move the boxes. when people stop applying to ups airlines, they may be forced to change how they treat us. and we all know that people will always apply to work here because ups pays well. sadly, those of us here will be stuck with the working conditions until we retire.

the ipa is strong and makes it bearable. i cannot imagine the working conditions if not for the ipa.

weatherman....
MISERABLE? Seriously? I mean, come on, I think the company pulls b.s. moves but it's "miserable" to work here? I go fly an airplane, go relax at the hotel, collect my paycheck and go home. Try climbing telephone poles in sub zero weather in Chicago like my future father in law for 37 years....or 12 hour night shifts as an ER nurse getting treated like $hit by some loser collecting welfare wearing nicer clothes than you do....better yet how about ironing shirts at a laundromat in the middle of summer with no air conditioning for minimum wage like my mom used to do.

There's obviously room for improvement. I honestly think it's a shame that things can't be better here with the employee relations but if you don't let it get to you it's not miserable. Let's keep some perspective here.

Also, if you honestly think that when we start hiring again, noone is going to apply.....I'd like some of what you are smoking. There is probably not one captain at a regional with less than 1000 PIC turbine and 5000 hours right now and most are chomping at the bit to get the heck out. You really think they are going to think that UPS is more "miserable" than Skywest? Even if you were to tell them that, they're going to think you're high on something.

Cheers!

Freightpuppy
03-14-2010, 07:05 AM
The problem with UPS and them not acknowledging the benefit of a voluntary furlough is that they will most likely grant LOAs at their discretion and STILL furlough 300 of us.



:(

Yeah, that's the b.s. part....how many took long term military leave? Even if it was 10 people, they should only be furloughing say 290, not 300. They got a bunch of savings from us already and are still furloughing 300. Bottom line is that at this point, I think it's fair to say they will do what they want and us trying to "help" (meaning dealing with the company) is futile. The best we can do is hope for the best and help out the furloughees as best we can as a union.

Vito
03-14-2010, 08:09 AM
Freightpuppy,

I haven't met you personally but I like your style!. You hit the nail on the head..Fly your jet, collect a paycheck, if you want hugs and kisses and pretty butterflies get it at home, don't expect it from your employer. I still fly in the reserves and every pilot in my unit wishes he was here, Nobody at American, Delta, United, USAir are happy, they all have the same *****es and gripes with their employers as we do, except they do it for alot less money. I understand completely what the bottom guys are going through, been through a similar time in my life and without a doubt the most darkest days that I can remember. The only ray of sunshine I can provide you guys is when I got hired here (Jan 95) I turned down a job at United. Fast forward 2 years later, we were deep into the contract 98 negociations , it was ugly, lots of animosity around here. My bud in the reserves who was hired at United, when I would have been, was flying out of New York (where I live) on a 767 making $80 something an hour, while I was sittting late hot on the 727 in SDF making $56/hr. He had just recieved over $80,000 in ESOP stock at United and I had "Oooogotz" (Brooklyn slang for Nothing) Fast forward 2 years later He's making $189/hr flying 747-400's as an F/O!!! I'm around $97. Last week he asked me if I thought we would hire due to the Flight rules legislation (He didn't know about the furlough) He's been on Mil orders for years and doesn't have a warm fuzzy about United's future. Last week after 5 years as a Captain I got downgraded to F/O...... I would have bet my kids college fund that I'd never be a F/O again. Moral of the story, You can't predict anything...get your love somewhere else, and you won't be so disappointed.
Good Luck to all of you guys, many of whom I helped get hired here, things will turn around and one day we'll all raise a glass together!

FR8TFLYER
03-14-2010, 09:38 AM
I talked with R. B. yesterday and asked him if there was a possibility of a furlough instead program, he said there is nothing official (ie a senior person taking a leave will save a junior guys job), but if people want to take a leave it will be approved. I don't know the numbers, but he said a bunch of guys are already out on leaves and military. According to him (grain of salt inserted here) the only way that a leave of absence would be denied right now is if a large number of pilots (those on the line right now, not sitting at home) request them at the same time....I have the target on my back too and am looking for something else and if I get it, hope to take a leave and hope that helps someone else...interesting times......

Take the above with a grain of salt....you know what they say about moving lips etc....what is said and what is done is often different...

Why do you expend energy talking to him? After what I have witnessed here you, they will lie right to your face.

Funny thing, a bottom 300 guy was asking a certain CP about having to resign his number here to go somewhere else when furloughed if UPS would just hold on to it until he was called back. He responded, "do you think that is ethical"? What does this place know about ethics anyway???

UPSFO4LIFE
03-14-2010, 10:11 AM
weatherman....
MISERABLE? Seriously? I mean, come on, I think the company pulls b.s. moves but it's "miserable" to work here? I go fly an airplane, go relax at the hotel, collect my paycheck and go home. Try climbing telephone poles in sub zero weather in Chicago like my future father in law for 37 years....or 12 hour night shifts as an ER nurse getting treated like $hit by some loser collecting welfare wearing nicer clothes than you do....better yet how about ironing shirts at a laundromat in the middle of summer with no air conditioning for minimum wage like my mom used to do.

There's obviously room for improvement. I honestly think it's a shame that things can't be better here with the employee relations but if you don't let it get to you it's not miserable. Let's keep some perspective here.

Also, if you honestly think that when we start hiring again, noone is going to apply.....I'd like some of what you are smoking. There is probably not one captain at a regional with less than 1000 PIC turbine and 5000 hours right now and most are chomping at the bit to get the heck out. You really think they are going to think that UPS is more "miserable" than Skywest? Even if you were to tell them that, they're going to think you're high on something.

Cheers!

I think it's all relative. Obviously, if you left another airline gig to come here only to spending a lot of your time training on different aircraft, and then finding yourself displaced to ANC, then yes you probably feel this is a miserable place to work. Nobody can even try to argue that UPS has treated the most junior folks here like crap. After all the BS they have gone through, now they are being told to hit the street? I believe that qualifies as "MISERABLE" in my book.

As for me, I will probably get displaced somewhere tomorrow, but I will be thankful that I am still getting paid. I knew UPS was a trucking company when I applied here over 5 years ago. Nothing prepaired me though, for the "trucking" philosophy that is rooted so deep within the airline.

As for future(waaaaaaay future) hiring, this will never be the "last job you'll ever have" job UPS wants everyone to believe it is. The cat is out of the bag on how UPS treats the junior folk around here!

Freightpuppy
03-14-2010, 10:26 AM
I think it's all relative. Obviously, if you left another airline gig to come here only to spending a lot of your time training on different aircraft, and then finding yourself displaced to ANC, then yes you probably feel this is a miserable place to work. Nobody can even try to argue that UPS has treated the most junior folks here like crap. After all the BS they have gone through, now they are being told to hit the street? I believe that qualifies as "MISERABLE" in my book.

As for me, I will probably get displaced somewhere tomorrow, but I will be thankful that I am still getting paid. I knew UPS was a trucking company when I applied here over 5 years ago. Nothing prepaired me though, for the "trucking" philosophy that is rooted so deep within the airline.

As for future(waaaaaaay future) hiring, this will never be the "last job you'll ever have" job UPS wants everyone to believe it is. The cat is out of the bag on how UPS treats the junior folk around here!

It is all relative but noone that truly works for a living (making 1/5 of what we make) is going to feel sorry for us.

I guess I don't feel miserable because I never let my expectations get too high.

Anyone that's been in this industry long enough should know that even if they tell you "it's the last job you'll ever have", you shouldn't believe it. If you do, you're either naive or haven't been around long enough.

Naven
03-14-2010, 10:30 AM
Freightpuppy,

I haven't met you personally but I like your style!. You hit the nail on the head..Fly your jet, collect a paycheck, if you want hugs and kisses and pretty butterflies get it at home, don't expect it from your employer. I still fly in the reserves and every pilot in my unit wishes he was here, Nobody at American, Delta, United, USAir are happy, they all have the same *****es and gripes with their employers as we do, except they do it for alot less money. I understand completely what the bottom guys are going through, been through a similar time in my life and without a doubt the most darkest days that I can remember. The only ray of sunshine I can provide you guys is when I got hired here (Jan 95) I turned down a job at United. Fast forward 2 years later, we were deep into the contract 98 negociations , it was ugly, lots of animosity around here. My bud in the reserves who was hired at United, when I would have been, was flying out of New York (where I live) on a 767 making $80 something an hour, while I was sittting late hot on the 727 in SDF making $56/hr. He had just recieved over $80,000 in ESOP stock at United and I had "Oooogotz" (Brooklyn slang for Nothing) Fast forward 2 years later He's making $189/hr flying 747-400's as an F/O!!! I'm around $97. Last week he asked me if I thought we would hire due to the Flight rules legislation (He didn't know about the furlough) He's been on Mil orders for years and doesn't have a warm fuzzy about United's future. Last week after 5 years as a Captain I got downgraded to F/O...... I would have bet my kids college fund that I'd never be a F/O again. Moral of the story, You can't predict anything...get your love somewhere else, and you won't be so disappointed.
Good Luck to all of you guys, many of whom I helped get hired here, things will turn around and one day we'll all raise a glass together!
The difference is most of the passenger carriers above are good at running an airline and bad at running their business. UPS is the opposite. They suck at running an airline and are good at running their business.

Vito
03-14-2010, 10:46 AM
Naven,

I agree with you, my point is every last one of my buds at the other airlines all wish they had our union and our pay. They don't really care about how nice they're treated and how much their airline respects and loves them. It's probably a case of the grass is always greener syndrome.
Personally I'm optimistic this furlough will be short, if it happens at all, and things will get better.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 11:00 AM
The difference is most of the passenger carriers above are good at running an airline and bad at running their business. UPS is the opposite. They suck at running an airline and are good at running their business.

The poor operations are their own fault and a great deal of it comes from this culture of separate managers that they thrive on. Yes, they have total control at the top, but the "challenged" managers at the lower levels can't make the changes that they see the need for and end up burned out and iratated. It doesn't seem to take too long before the manager becomes just as frustrated as we do, only they are stuck in that funk for the rest of their careers. They throw up their hands and we end up in paralysis. Hard to just collect a check and leave the irratations of the job behind you as Freightpuppy suggests when you are on the hook 24/7 and have to be careful about which of your co workers it is safe to talk to.

There's a reason that the company has to go off campus to recruit managers. We've all passed on the opportunity for "promotion" already.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 11:04 AM
Last week after 5 years as a Captain I got downgraded to F/O...... I would have bet my kids college fund that I'd never be a F/O again. Moral of the story, You can't predict anything...get your love somewhere else, and you won't be so disappointed.


Downgraded to FO and you'll still make more money than the senior captain at your buddies airlines, and twice what they make. Who'd of thought? You are 100% right about where you need to find your love. Never love anything that can't, or won't love you back

Naven
03-14-2010, 11:05 AM
The poor operations are their own fault and a great deal of it comes from this culture of separate managers that they thrive on. Yes, they have total control at the top, but the "challenged" managers at the lower levels can't make the changes that they see the need for and end up burned out and iratated. It doesn't seem to take too long before the manager becomes just as frustrated as we do, only they are stuck in that funk for the rest of their careers. They throw up their hands and we end up in paralysis. Hard to just collect a check and leave the irratations of the job behind you as Freightpuppy suggests when you are on the hook 24/7 and have to be careful about which of your co workers it is safe to talk to.

There's a reason that the company has to go off campus to recruit managers. We've all passed on the opportunity for "promotion" already.
Your right. When I was a new hire I was jumpseating on the 747 and when I met the captain I found out he was hired the same time as me. He was a 747 captain and I was making $26,000 a year. I felt sorry for him, there is no way in hell I would ever do their job.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 11:12 AM
I felt sorry for him, there is no way in hell I would ever do their job.

Well, should you change your mind, they'll be sending you another offer next January;)

Waborita
03-14-2010, 12:23 PM
Naven,

Personally I'm optimistic this furlough will be short, if it happens at all, and things will get better.


Vito:

Care to elaborate on this statement as why you feel this way. I am not bashing you I just get real curious and a little hopefull when people make statements like this. Other than UPS using this furlough for yhe RIF bid which saves them on training and get the DC8 guys into the system. I just don't think that pays for what MOU I and II offered

I respectfully disagree mostly because the IPA's roadshows make me think 3 years is a realistic expectation for the bottom 170's furlough. Unless UPS announces some huge A/C order (which doesn't lead to parking more 757's) or a foreign domicile surprise sometime down the road.

Cheers!

Vito
03-14-2010, 02:12 PM
Waborita,

First since I've been here (1995) we have gone through a few periods of high growth followed by a flattening, Prior to the growth spurts the managers had told us there would be no new hires this year? a few weeks later we started to hire over 200 guys, that was around 99 or so (don't quote me) then in 2003 they announced the furlough of 100, followed by no furlough , largely due to the start of the Iraq war and the activation of alot of pilots by the military. A year and a half later they started hiring again, which went on through 2004, 05 and 06. Same deal with when they announced that they didn't know what our new Jet purchase would be, then the next day they announced they bought 30 new 767's ! Point is we don't know what the world economy will do in the next year, it seems to be recovering. There are BILLIONS of Indians and Chinese who don't even have access to a computer, but one day soon they to will be buying stuff online, and we'll deliver it....and the last point and many will laugh is I don't think UPS likes the fact of a furlough, its an embarassment to many managers and old time managers..especially when their pilots are looking to fly for Foreign airlines...you may not think they really care, but I think its a black eye to them. Also FedEx seems to be growing while we're contracting, not good if your trying to impress Wall Street....None of this is scientific, just my gut.
But I'd be willing to bet you a dinner that I'm right and nobody will get furloughed for more than a year barring any worldwide catastrophe. We're also putting alot of pressure on them via the OT ban and the FQS integration initiative, it all adds up. The wild card is the new CEO and whether he wants to prove a point, but the tough guy act rarely works with the IPA.
Hope I'm right.

Waborita
03-14-2010, 05:23 PM
Vito

Thanks for your response I hope for all 2817 IPA'ers it works out that way. Pkanning for the worst and hoping for the best.

Freightpuppy
03-14-2010, 06:49 PM
Hard to just collect a check and leave the irratations of the job behind you as Freightpuppy suggests when you are on the hook 24/7 and have to be careful about which of your co workers it is safe to talk to.

There's a reason that the company has to go off campus to recruit managers. We've all passed on the opportunity for "promotion" already.

Dude I wasn't talking about managers.

767pilot
03-14-2010, 07:07 PM
Dude I wasn't talking about managers.
I am !!!!!!!!!!



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