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View Full Version : FDX 777 pay?


bleedairpacks
03-26-2010, 11:42 AM
They paying you guys in IOUs? :D


MEMFO4Ever
03-26-2010, 11:58 AM
They paying you guys in IOUs? :D

Looks like a widebody to me.

The Walrus
03-26-2010, 12:56 PM
It obviously is just another widebody. If rumors of replacing the MD10 domestic with 777 lights, then it should just pay normal widebody pay. If they want to fly ULR work rules with it, then the company should be required to pay 380 rates for those routes. But we are kidding ourselves if we think that we will get 380 pay to fly it MEM to SEA, ORD, LAX etc.......


KnightFlyer
03-26-2010, 01:25 PM
Huh?
-----------------

frozenboxhauler
03-26-2010, 02:20 PM
I thought it was gonna pay the 380 rate:confused: That's what Bob said:confused::confused:
fbh

JethroFDX
03-26-2010, 03:13 PM
It's not gonna affect me, so if there is a vote, I'll just vote for the first rate that's proposed. They can make up the difference by picking up open time.:rolleyes:

iarapilot
03-26-2010, 08:00 PM
It obviously is just another widebody. If rumors of replacing the MD10 domestic with 777 lights, then it should just pay normal widebody pay. If they want to fly ULR work rules with it, then the company should be required to pay 380 rates for those routes. But we are kidding ourselves if we think that we will get 380 pay to fly it MEM to SEA, ORD, LAX etc.......

It may be just another widebody, but the fact is that a payrate for it, being a new airplane, was not negotiated. Therefore, the payrate should be established before any pilot puts in a bid for it. And that payrate, if we collectively had a brain and half a gonad, could be better than what we are getting. But what do you expect when our union leadership bids it under these circumstances?! I am so proud of "ourselves" ! :rolleyes:

Subjectivity and rationalization have no place in determining something when a contract provision covers such a circumstance. Just saying!

The Walrus
03-26-2010, 08:13 PM
Just saying, that door shut over a year ago. I do not think living in the past is healthy or constructive.

ictflyer23
03-26-2010, 08:22 PM
Just saying, that door shut over a year ago. I do not think living in the past is healthy or constructive.

Wide-body pay -- period.......

iarapilot
03-26-2010, 08:24 PM
Just saying, that door shut over a year ago. I do not think living in the past is healthy or constructive.

You are correct on both points. But remembering the past so as to not repeat it, is healthy, and smart. I wasnt trying to diss your comment, just had to throw in my 2 cents worth.

PastV1
03-27-2010, 01:01 PM
Wide-body pay -- period.......

And why would you say that? It's much more efficient than the MD's plus carries more. So why would someone not want a higher pay rate for any aircraft if they have a chance to get it?

30 From Bottom
03-27-2010, 02:22 PM
The future is the 777! We could see up to 100 777s by 2020 when other carriers start dumping them for the 787s.
For us to just roll over for widebody pay because 5% of our workforce was greedy and bid the 777 with no pay rate is insane.
I think we should do everything we can for 380 payrates now and just make sure we don't give the greedy bastards retro pay when we do sign the contract.
That way, they are not being rewarded for being dumb asses and bidding the aircraft without a pay rate!

Seriously...we need this rate now or we won't see it for a long time!!!

Beaver
03-27-2010, 02:41 PM
And why would you say that? It's much more efficient than the MD's plus carries more. So why would someone not want a higher pay rate for any aircraft if they have a chance to get it?

Now you are applying logic and common sense to the equation. While I agree under normal circumstances, the 777 should have a higher pay rate than the other fleets. The fact that we had people tripping over themselves to bid an aircraft with no negotiated pay rate has completely changed my opinion. I will not support negotiating anything away for a bump in pay for the 777.

Gunter
03-27-2010, 02:44 PM
Is this thread about all the draft and high line averages in the 777? That's what those that bid it say.

They didn't care about the pay rate with all the bennies they knew were in store for them. Probably still don't care.

No retro. Not with this pilot group/good ole' boy network.

Dracma
03-27-2010, 03:25 PM
Big payrate increases across the board. The only exception is the 777.......it should wait 24 months to receive its raise in order to fund the raises on the other aircraft. Anyone who bids an airplane without a payrate obviously doesn't care what the rate is.

OffRoad5150
03-27-2010, 04:11 PM
I'm with Dracma on this.

The Walrus
03-27-2010, 04:26 PM
I'm a little confused. When we brought on the Airbus, and the MD11 and the MD10, why didn't we hear all of this about the people that bid it? Was there already a separate pay rate established by contract for these aircraft, or was it just assumed that they were wide body playing aircraft?

30 From Bottom
03-27-2010, 04:28 PM
I think it maybe harder to get 380 rates 2 years from now. I'd rather make sure we get them, even if it rewards the guys who bid it, then not get them at all and 3-4 years from now we are still flying at WB rates.

ictflyer23
03-27-2010, 04:43 PM
And why would you say that? It's much more efficient than the MD's plus carries more. So why would someone not want a higher pay rate for any aircraft if they have a chance to get it?

It should never have been bid without a pay rate -- greedy people hurting themselves.

Sluggo_63
03-27-2010, 05:18 PM
I'm a little confused. When we brought on the Airbus, and the MD11 and the MD10, why didn't we hear all of this about the people that bid it? Was there already a separate pay rate established by contract for these aircraft, or was it just assumed that they were wide body playing aircraft?Because we got duped...

How much negotiating capital did we use up negotiating a payrate for the A380? What could we have gotten 'extra' in our contract if we just rolled over and said that the A380 could be paid at widebody rates?

So now we gave up something for 4 pages in the contract that we can just throw out. Then the company brings on the 777 and pays it at WB rates, and the only leverage we have to get the ULR payrates we negotiated for is for people to stand firm and not bid the 777... but they did, so essentially gave the company something for nothing.

The Walrus
03-27-2010, 05:33 PM
If nobody had bid it, it would have been filled in reverse seniority order, and would still be flying, just by the most junior at the company.

FDXLAG
03-27-2010, 05:37 PM
So all youse guys saying we need a triple 7 payrate; tell me why all your arguments wouldn't apply equally to the 757? It will be the ACFT more fedex pilots will log more hours in for the foreseeable future. IMHO.

Huck
03-27-2010, 05:41 PM
If nobody had bid it, it would have been filled in reverse seniority order, and would still be flying, just by the most junior at the company.

Don't confuse 'em. They're on a roll....

Somebody tell us how United parked theirs until they got a rate. That's my favorite.

FDXLAG
03-27-2010, 05:46 PM
Don't confuse 'em. They're on a roll....

Somebody tell us how United parked theirs until they got a rate. That's my favorite.


So who should give up what to get the 777 a better payrate? I vote the bus guys.

Busboy
03-27-2010, 05:50 PM
If nobody had bid it, it would have been filled in reverse seniority order, and would still be flying, just by the most junior at the company.

This is correct. Our contract is much different than Delta, United, etc. when it comes to new aircraft.

I'm a firm believer that we should get 380 rates for the aircraft that replaced it. We have already spent the negotiating capital for it. We have the leverage, in that they can't fly it ULR unless we agree. If the arbitrator comes back with "wide body" rate...We say fine...Pays like an Md-11?...Then, fly it like an Md-11. NO ULR!!!

It should pay A380. If the company wants to fly it domestic...They can work on that payrate in contract 2010. Many airlines pay a different rate for the same aircraft's different model. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

RedeyeAV8r
03-27-2010, 05:50 PM
So all youse guys saying we need a triple 7 payrate; tell me why all your arguments wouldn't apply equally to the 757? It will be the ACFT more fedex pilots will log more hours in for the foreseeable future. IMHO.

The Difference is and Unfortunately it is contractual.
United had language in their contract that said "NO new Airframe can be put into service unless there is a negotiated payrate." If you read our Section 26K it says otherwise. I wish it didn't but it does.

The 757 and 737 were mentioned in this contract as paying naroow body rates if they were put into service.

The 777 isn't mentioned in our current contract so Section 26K applies.

According to the union and in speaking with a Block rep one night during a hub turn. We are already into the arbitration for the 777.

The arbitration will determine wheter or not the 777 is a Wide body or some new category if so a payrate will be decided by the arbitrator. Furthermore, according to the contract, if the arbitrator rules the 777 is a new category and a higher hourly rate applies it will be done so retroactively.

Sorry to enter facts into an APC discussion.

FDXLAG
03-27-2010, 05:55 PM
The Difference is and Unfortunately it is contractual.
United had language in their contract that said "NO new Airframe can be put into service unless there is a negotiated payrate." If you read our Section 26K it says otherwise. I wish it didn't but it does.

The 757 and 737 were mentioned in this contract as paying naroow body rates if they were put into service.

The 777 isn't mentioned in our current contract so Section 26K applies.

According to the union and in speaking with a Block rep one night during a hub turn. We are already into the arbitration for the 777.

The arbitration will determine wheter or not the 777 is a Wide body or some new category if so a payrate will be decided by the arbitrator. Furthermore, according to the contract, if the arbitrator rules the 777 is a new category and a higher hourly rate applies it will be done so retroactively.

Sorry to enter facts into an APC discussion.

And I hope we win the arbitration. If we lose I am willing to give up nothing to get us a new payrate for the 777. How about you?

The Walrus
03-27-2010, 06:04 PM
This is correct. Our contract is much different than Delta, United, etc. when it comes to new aircraft.

I'm a firm believer that we should get 380 rates for the aircraft that replaced it. We have already spent the negotiating capital for it. We have the leverage, in that they can't fly it ULR unless we agree. If the arbitrator comes back with "wide body" rate...We say fine...Pays like an Md-11?...Then, fly it like an Md-11. NO ULR!!!

It should pay A380. If the company wants to fly it domestic...They can work on that payrate in contract 2010. Many airlines pay a different rate for the same aircraft's different model. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

The Difference is and Unfortunately it is contractual.
United had language in their contract that said "NO new Airframe can be put into service unless there is a negotiated payrate." If you read our Section 26K it says otherwise. I wish it didn't but it does.

The 757 and 737 were mentioned in this contract as paying naroow body rates if they were put into service.

The 777 isn't mentioned in our current contract so Section 26K applies.

According to the union and in speaking with a Block rep one night during a hub turn. We are already into the arbitration for the 777.

The arbitration will determine wheter or not the 777 is a Wide body or some new category if so a payrate will be decided by the arbitrator. Furthermore, according to the contract, if the arbitrator rules the 777 is a new category and a higher hourly rate applies it will be done so retroactively.

Sorry to enter facts into an APC discussion.

Exactly. End of story. Move on. Nothing to see here.

Busboy
03-27-2010, 06:18 PM
And I hope we win the arbitration. If we lose I am willing to give up nothing to get us a new payrate for the 777. How about you?

I am willing to give up something!!! I am willing to give up the A-380 ULR workrules to get a new payrate for the 777(the airplane that replaced it).

FDXLAG
03-27-2010, 06:32 PM
I am willing to give up something!!! I am willing to give up the A-380 ULR workrules to get a new payrate for the 777(the airplane that replaced it).

No problem, I guess it depends on whether you are talking contract 2006 or 2010. If the arbitrator rules the 777 is a widebody I guess we could trade the ulr rules for a 777 payrate. Personally I think trading it for a better 757 payrate or a fix to accepted fares or fresher coffee in the AOC would do more for the "crewforce" than rewarding those who bid it without a payrate would.

Actually wouldnt it be better to hold off on ULR rules until contract 2010 or 2011 or 2012 is resolved? What do you call it; leverage?

RedeyeAV8r
03-27-2010, 07:10 PM
And I hope we win the arbitration. If we lose I am willing to give up nothing to get us a new payrate for the 777. How about you?


Concur If we lose the arbitration it ends there.............that is until the Company wants to fly the 777 under ULR rules. Then we negotiate 777 ULR work rules.

Til then it is in the arbitrators hands.

frozenboxhauler
03-27-2010, 09:41 PM
Concur If we lose the arbitration it ends there.............that is until the Company wants to fly the 777 under ULR rules. Then we negotiate 777 ULR work rules.

Til then it is in the arbitrators hands.

I like the way you think. Good to read from ya Redeye, where ya been?
fbh

fdx727pilot
03-28-2010, 07:22 AM
No problem, I guess it depends on whether you are talking contract 2006 or 2010. If the arbitrator rules the 777 is a widebody I guess we could trade the ulr rules for a 777 payrate. Personally I think trading it for a better 757 payrate or a fix to accepted fares or fresher coffee in the AOC would do more for the "crewforce" than rewarding those who bid it without a payrate would.

Actually wouldnt it be better to hold off on ULR rules until contract 2010 or 2011 or 2012 is resolved? What do you call it; leverage?

You have to remember that both sides must agree to a new contract. If we don't address ULR rules, IMHO, the company will not sign anything. We'll end up flying under the current rules until hell freezes over or the FAA forces work rule changes. You could be talking Contract 2015 or worse.

FDXLAG
03-28-2010, 07:47 AM
You have to remember that both sides must agree to a new contract. If we don't address ULR rules, IMHO, the company will not sign anything. We'll end up flying under the current rules until hell freezes over or the FAA forces work rule changes. You could be talking Contract 2015 or worse.


I am confused, are you saying ULR rules are leverage? If yes I agree. As such, I would rather use the (potential) leverage to get contract 201X rather than fix contract 2006. And as I have said, my priorities for contract 201X do not include a 777 payrate. YMMV.

FlyByNite
03-28-2010, 08:14 AM
It should never have been bid without a pay rate -- greedy people hurting themselves.

Could you explain that to our former MEC chair?

Sluggo_63
03-29-2010, 06:26 AM
If nobody had bid it, it would have been filled in reverse seniority order, and would still be flying, just by the most junior at the company.I understand that. We should have forced their hand, then. The company went nuts over putting new-hires in a MD-11 in ANC. We should have seen if they had the guts to staff the left and right seat of the 777 with the most junior at the company. It would have been a big Mexican standoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awskKWzjlhk) and I think we would have prevailed.

The Walrus
03-29-2010, 06:34 AM
I wish I had gone to medical school, but that ship has sailed also.

Tractor Bob
03-29-2010, 07:12 AM
Obamacare will suck the fun out of being a doctor soon enough. Doctors are now posting on their chat rooms how they wish they had become Trash Hauling Pilots.

Wildmanny
03-29-2010, 07:15 AM
I understand that. We should have forced their hand, then. The company went nuts over putting new-hires in a MD-11 in ANC. We should have seen if they had the guts to staff the left and right seat of the 777 with the most junior at the company. It would have been a big Mexican standoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awskKWzjlhk) and I think we would have prevailed.


My apologies to all our Mexican friends watching on this board. Sluggo...direct to sensitivity training for you!

WM

HazCan
03-29-2010, 07:20 AM
My apologies to all our Mexican friends watching on this board. Sluggo...direct to sensitivity training for you!

WM

Ole!!!!!!!

ictflyer23
03-29-2010, 07:49 AM
Could you explain that to our former MEC chair?
I would love to -- preferrably in a dark alley in an asian country.... :)

Laughing_Jakal
03-29-2010, 09:54 AM
You have to remember that both sides must agree to a new contract. If we don't address ULR rules, IMHO, the company will not sign anything. We'll end up flying under the current rules until hell freezes over or the FAA forces work rule changes. You could be talking Contract 2015 or worse.

Cool that means I can retire at 60:D

Sluggo_63
03-29-2010, 11:43 AM
My apologies to all our Mexican friends watching on this board. Sluggo...direct to sensitivity training for you!

WMSorry, but Portuguese standoff just didn't sound right... and Norwegian standoff is just plain goofy...

Busboy
03-29-2010, 12:19 PM
Are we "south of the border" to the Canadians?

Jetjok
03-29-2010, 01:31 PM
Cool that means I can retire at 60:D

As little work as you currently do, I thought you already had.:D

JJ

meatloaf
03-29-2010, 02:06 PM
My apologies to all our Mexican friends watching on this board. Sluggo...direct to sensitivity training for you!

WM

Hey, I'm a one-eyed, half-deaf, bald white dude with bad breath and a twitch in my throttle hand. Can I get some apologies and send some people to sensitivity training too? :D

Flightmech
03-30-2010, 02:53 AM
Talking of the 777, both the ex Air France machines are in MEM now. N880FD (ex F-GUOA) and N882FD (ex F-GUOD) One of them arrived only yesterday on a temp reg N449BA. For those who might be remotely interested, for those who aren't I apologise.:p

cvilltn
03-30-2010, 04:23 AM
Talking of the 777, both the ex Air France machines are in MEM now. N880FD (ex F-GUOA) and N882FD (ex F-GUOD) One of them arrived only yesterday on a temp reg N449BA. For those who might be remotely interested, for those who aren't I apologise.:p

Just curious.......are the Air France 777's the long range types like we have now, or the shorter ranged ones (-200's??) that some have suggested will ultimately replace the MD's?

frozenboxhauler
03-30-2010, 04:56 AM
Just curious.......are the Air France 777's the long range types like we have now, or the shorter ranged ones (-200's??) that some have suggested will ultimately replace the MD's?

They're the long legged ones. Rumor has it that AF ordered them with espresso makers installed,...can any one confirm this?
fbh

The Walrus
03-30-2010, 05:16 AM
They're the long legged ones. Rumor has it that AF ordered them with espresso makers installed,...can any one confirm this?
fbh

Espresso machines, crepe makers, a wine cellar and a state of the art 8 track tape system.:D

Overnitefr8
03-30-2010, 05:31 AM
They're the long legged ones. Rumor has it that AF ordered them with espresso makers installed,...can any one confirm this?
fbh

If they did, I'm sure FedEx has already taken them off. Or they are portable, only to be used when PC and BG fly. ;)

Unknown Rider
03-30-2010, 05:34 AM
Espresso machines, crepe makers, a wine cellar and a state of the art 8 track tape system.:D


Do the lavs have bidets?

DaRaiders
03-30-2010, 06:00 AM
Do the lavs have bidets?

No, but the toilet seats ARE heated.

Flightmech
03-30-2010, 06:27 AM
They're the long legged ones. Rumor has it that AF ordered them with espresso makers installed,...can any one confirm this?
fbh

Garlic crushers, not espresso makers. Doubt PC and BG will fly these two, they aren't brand new and shiney, just slightly used ex-demo models.:eek:

The Walrus
03-30-2010, 06:41 AM
I thought that I had read that these were brand new AF orders right off of the assembly line that AF didn't want to take delivery of at this time.

Flightmech
03-30-2010, 06:54 AM
I thought that I had read that these were brand new AF orders right off of the assembly line that AF didn't want to take delivery of at this time.

One of them (N880FD/F-GUOA) has been flying for Air France in an all white untitled scheme. I believe N882FD/F-GUOD came directly from KPAE.

Photos: Boeing 777-F28 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled-(Air-France/Boeing-777-F28/1654849/&sid=96c052cd0f794e7455d21e9ccf79dff8)

JethroFDX
03-30-2010, 08:36 AM
.......and a state of the art 8 track tape system.:D

Bet most of 'em are glad they kept their K-Tel collection.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/pop_albums/cov200/drd300/d365/d36590o6uni.jpg

Got Gino Vannelli?

fly2ski
03-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Gist of the Gemini:D

MaxKts
03-30-2010, 11:13 AM
Just curious.......are the Air France 777's the long range types like we have now, or the shorter ranged ones (-200's??) that some have suggested will ultimately replace the MD's?

Any 777 Freighter is the long range like we have (-200 with a -300 wing).
Shorter range -200 (if ever built) will be a passenger to freighter conversion and only have a -200 wing thus the shorter range and lower lift capacity.

fdx727pilot
03-30-2010, 02:11 PM
One of them (N880FD/F-GUOA) has been flying for Air France in an all white untitled scheme. I believe N882FD/F-GUOD came directly from KPAE.


N880FD/F-GUOA (Ser No 32967) was the 3rd 777F but was kept at Boeing for a while as a test bird, and was actually the first to fly.

Photos: Boeing 777-F28 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing/Boeing-777-F28/1370824/&sid=1aa81be89596c91d519dba7dc5db4eb5)

N882FD/F-GUOD (Ser No 32969) was the 4th 777F for Air France and was never put in service.

Photos: Boeing 777-F28 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing-777-F28/1621930/&sid=38f27f368617a5134685354dd32516df)

bleedairpacks
03-30-2010, 02:22 PM
Before I posted, I understood that the contracted dictated arbitration regarding the pay of the 777F at the company. I was half being a smart ass half curious. I think it's silly to include the new frame in 'wb pay scale' but I also don't want 4a2b any longer than necessary.

That said, the idea that 777 crews bid it regardless of pay scale is comical. If you want to drive a 777 just because, go back to AA or UA and give the FE on the 727 a chance to move up.

Purple Promised? :(

purpledog
03-31-2010, 03:41 AM
That said, the idea that 777 crews bid it regardless of pay scale is comical. If you want to drive a 777 just because, go back to AA or UA and give the FE on the 727 a chance to move up.

Right on. Before we negotiate one extra penny for the 777, we need to negotiate a better scale for the 757 since it is taking the bus flying. Those that bid the 777 betting on "the come" can wait. How about wide body pay for all my friends like the UPS scale?

AFW_MD11
03-31-2010, 07:38 PM
Right on. Before we negotiate one extra penny for the 777, we need to negotiate a better scale for the 757 since it is taking the bus flying. Those that bid the 777 betting on "the come" can wait. How about wide body pay for all my friends like the UPS scale?

We already traded a "better scale" on the 757 for the A380 pay rates....don't hold your breath.

Besides.....the 777 pay rate has been in arbitration for a while now....shouldn't be long before we have a rate.

Wonder if the decision on the pay rate will come before or after the upcoming vacancy bid?? Maybe that's another piece of the puzzle they're waiting on before putting out the bid?

MeXC
04-01-2010, 04:30 AM
What bid? :confused:

Gunter
04-01-2010, 06:28 AM
We already traded a "better scale" on the 757 for the A380 pay rates....



We traded a decent FDA LOA for 777 pay rates too...then got the shaft.

Thankfully most of the reps that pushed that POS are gone now. And they still defend their actions :eek:

The 777s are coming. Unless they want them to sit, they're going to need more crewmembers even without a payrate.

purpledog
04-01-2010, 11:23 AM
The 777s are coming. Unless they want them to sit, they're going to need more crewmembers even without a payrate.

Wishful thinking indeed. Someone will always fly it because it's a shiny new 777. One big tube same as another to me.

Since a lot of us will probably be flying the 75 when all the MDs and Buses go away (if rumors are true, could start during this contract), getting a higher rate for the 75 seems like the most prudent thing to do. I'd forgo a WB pay raise on the next contract to bring the NB pay up to the same.

max8222
04-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Purple Dog, I like what you are saying brother.

FDXLAG
04-01-2010, 12:25 PM
One pay scale or nine is my motto. Two is dumb, three is dumber.

FDX28
04-01-2010, 05:26 PM
Remember, the company wanted one pay scale (like UPS) last contract. But big Bob and DW didn't. They fought against it. I remember one roadshow where they were spouting their typical BS that they were looking out for everyone by ensuring that the top 10% could max out with some serious international pay...

Thanks BOB -

Busboy
04-01-2010, 11:17 PM
Wishful thinking indeed. Someone will always fly it because it's a shiny new 777. One big tube same as another to me.

Since a lot of us will probably be flying the 75 when all the MDs and Buses go away (if rumors are true, could start during this contract), getting a higher rate for the 75 seems like the most prudent thing to do. I'd forgo a WB pay raise on the next contract to bring the NB pay up to the same.

Gee...That would really be terrific. I'm sure the 4000 other pilots that fly the widebodies, would really think that is a great idea.:rolleyes:

Gunter
04-02-2010, 06:35 AM
Gee...That would really be terrific. I'm sure the 4000 other pilots that fly the widebodies, would really think that is a great idea.:rolleyes:


You mean all those senior guys? ;)

MaydayMark
04-02-2010, 08:06 AM
I have mixed emotions on this subject ...

- Basically I'm in the camp of, "They bid the jet without a pay rate (including DW!), they should have known better, the h*ll with them" :eek:

- However, the logical side of my brain says, "If it pays more, the senior guys in my seat will bail out, and I'll be more senior in my seat (isn't this the ALL-ABOUT-ME forum?) AND anything that get pilots more pay is a good thing :confused:

- but I'd also be OK with a "Boeing" pay rate (727 - 757 - 777). :D I'd also be OK with a lower >25 years of service lower pay rate

Discuss ...

purpledog
04-03-2010, 02:51 AM
Gee...That would really be terrific. I'm sure the 4000 other pilots that fly the widebodies, would really think that is a great idea.
The last time I checked the seniority list there were 4600ish pilots. You think in the future that we will have 4000 guys on the 777 and only 600 on the 75?:rolleyes:Stupid smiley back at ya.

This place will never get better when we have guys only looking out for themselves.

Busdrivr
04-03-2010, 06:04 AM
but I'd also be OK with a "Boeing" pay rate (727 - 757 - 777). I'd also be OK with a lower >25 years of service lower pay rate

Just curious Mark. How many years do you have with the company?

MaydayMark
04-03-2010, 09:04 AM
Just curious Mark. How many years do you have with the company?


Only because you asked BD ... I have 15 years with FedEx and when I retire at age 60 I will have only 23 years. I do not yet have ANY of my maximum "high 5". Because I've planned for the fortunate opportunity to be able to retire at age 60 (unlike some we all know), I look forward to that day as I have lots of hobbies.

I feel bad for the folks that have nothing better to do than hub-turn into VERY old age.


Mark

Magenta Line
04-03-2010, 04:15 PM
Only because you asked BD ... I have 15 years with FedEx and when I retire at age 60 I will have only 23 years. I do not yet have ANY of my maximum "high 5". Because I've planned for the fortunate opportunity to be able to retire at age 60 (unlike some we all know), I look forward to that day as I have lots of hobbies.

I feel bad for the folks that have nothing better to do than hub-turn into VERY old age.


Mark

"....hub turn into very old age."

and I need to add....

"and then die without using more than 2 years of your retirement."

R1200RT
04-03-2010, 04:24 PM
- but I'd also be OK with a "Boeing" pay rate (727 - 757 - 777). :D I'd also be OK with a lower >25 years of service lower pay rate
Discuss ...

What about the Boeing MD-11? ;)

JethroFDX
04-03-2010, 04:29 PM
......This place will never get better when we have guys only looking out for themselves.

Seems like narcissism was a hiring standard at one time and I freely admit I've met and flown with some real doozies. It's been a source of astonishment to me and quite of number of my peers. A culture change is defiantly in order.

My outlook has always been look out for the jr. guys, 'cuz then the senior guys will benefit from it!

MD11HOG
04-03-2010, 05:46 PM
Seems like narcissism was a hiring standard at one time and I freely admit I've met and flown with some real doozies. It's been a source of astonishment to me and quite of number of my peers. A culture change is defiantly in order.

My outlook has always been look out for the jr. guys, 'cuz then the senior guys will benefit from it!

I had always hoped when the 200,000 employee number guys were captains, that we would see some leadership from the left seat and a shift in attitude. Now , when I look at the disputed pairings and see those guys listed, I pretty much have given up hope.

pipe
04-03-2010, 06:05 PM
The hiring process has been broken for a long time. If the senior guys can't or won't "carry the water" in terms of contract enforcement, unity, selflesness etc., why would you expect it to ever change? The way we hire here, everyone else (with a very few exceptions) was sponsored by those same guys. If the apple fell far from the tree it would be a first.

We also have too many ex-military that are ingrained with a "complete the mission, do what the commander tells you, hack it" mentality. That mindset is constantly exploited by a management that is made up of "leaders" from the same background (who view themselves as the commanders). I don't care if you were Blue Angel One, Thunderbird lead, or a flag officer - you're enlisted as far as FDX management is concerned.

This isn't intended to start the usual mil vs. civ debate, these are just my observations as a guy who has both backgrounds and has worked at several majors prior to this one.

PIPE

RedeyeAV8r
04-03-2010, 07:36 PM
The hiring process has been broken for a long time. If the senior guys can't or won't "carry the water" in terms of contract enforcement, unity, selflesness etc., why would you expect it to ever change? The way we hire here, everyone else (with a very few exceptions) was sponsored by those same guys. If the apple fell far from the tree it would be a first.

We also have too many ex-military that are ingrained with a "complete the mission, do what the commander tells you, hack it" mentality. That mindset is constantly exploited by a management that is made up of "leaders" from the same background (who view themselves as the commanders). I don't care if you were Blue Angel One, Thunderbird lead, or a flag officer - you're enlisted as far as FDX management is concerned.

This isn't intended to start the usual mil vs. civ debate, these are just my observations as a guy who has both backgrounds and has worked at several majors prior to this one.

PIPE

Excuse me, maybe I have had 1 too many single malts and am missing your point.

I sponsored a friend who got hired when I was only on property 6 months!
I sponsored 2 more who got hired in the next few years. i was a veteran then with 4 years at FedEx by then. Was I senior? Yes I was a senior 727 Second Officer I suppose. You think our hiring process is broken?

The only thing that was broken is when a former SCP refused to hire or even look at furloughed guys. That was FU imho.

As far as we "Hire too many Ex-military" Since when? Look at the data of our most recent new hires (granted it was 3 years ago) It was pretty close to 50/50 Mil/civilian. Look at the bulk of the Purple nuggets ( I still hate that term) , Most were from the regionals because they had Glass experience.

17 years ago (and prior) we hired pretty much exclusive military. That was also pretty much standard in the majors. Look at Delta back then, they hired almost 100% ex military. Was that bad? Back then there weren't regional pilots. There were commuter pilots who mostly only had Prop experience. That has all changed in the last 15 as the military pipeline has dried up and now Regionals fly RJs, not to mention the salaries aren't once they once were and many military pilots do not want to take the pay cut.

Personally, I like our hiring process. yes there is some politics but tell me where that isn't a factor. FedEx still has a pretty good hiring system. I'll take human choices over a computer picking candidates off a scanner sheet any day.

But that is just one man's opinion.

990Convair
04-03-2010, 09:00 PM
I for one do believe our interview process is F'd up. First of all, you have to know AND have flown with somebody? That caters to the Military squadron ranks (no mil/civ bashing intended). So, if my neighbor is a 10 year regional Captain, I have to go fly with them to THEN recommend them? Idiotic, if they are flying at a 121 carrier or in the armed forces, then they should be able to fly.

Then you have the Sim eval, which is a joke. There is no approach, and no landing? ***? Oh, in my previous 7 years at a regional we got clearances like "climb at 500' feet per minute and turn 30 degrees left while slowing to 170kts. El stupido. How about seeing if the candidate CAN FLY (you know, train like we fly?).

And we can't forget the written test. Let me tell you, I am much safer with a guy/gal that knows the first 10 elements on the periodic table.

At least the infamous Doctor DT came up with the "situation eval". So you sit in a folding chair in a paper trainer while they tell you that a UPS plane crash landed and you low on gas, what to do! (heard that was discontinued).

I think our process is a joke and not commensurate with one of the largest and greatest airlines in the world.

I have a bud that just interviewed at American Eagle and it sounded like a much more professional process.....

1. First day was a technical eval with a standards check airman - do you know anything about flying and your current plane? Not limitations, more like hangar talk, situational stories.

2. Second day was a sim eval, a REAL one. With a take-off, approach, hold, ILS to a full stop landing.

3. Last day is the Captain's board interview with the VP of flight ops, system chief pilot, and a line captain, Eagle's version of the "personnel interview". Not with some dudes they grab from the flex department.

The decision is made by the VP. Sounds more professional than ours IMO.

And I agree with the previous poster, JL's "not hiring furloughees" was EL STUPIDO.

pipe
04-03-2010, 09:49 PM
Excuse me, maybe I have had 1 too many single malts and am missing your point.

Personally, I like our hiring process. yes there is some politics but tell me where that isn't a factor. FedEx still has a pretty good hiring system. I'll take human choices over a computer picking candidates off a scanner sheet any day.

But that is just one man's opinion.

I don't dismiss much of what you say, but I do believe that the purple nuggets and the last couple of years of hiring are a misrepresentation of the group as a whole. As a matter of fact, you are really counting the nuggets twice as an exception to my earlier premise.

I just think it looks closer to a political appointment process than a hiring process. I daresay that the quality of your sponsorship can overcome a lot of shortcomings in the interview. But, as you said, that is just one man's opinion.

PIPE

KnightFlyer
04-04-2010, 06:52 AM
Pay per hour, all aircraft:

Captains: $275

F/Os: $195

S/Os: $165

Busboy
04-10-2010, 07:50 PM
The last time I checked the seniority list there were 4600ish pilots. You think in the future that we will have 4000 guys on the 777 and only 600 on the 75?:rolleyes:Stupid smiley back at ya.

This place will never get better when we have guys only looking out for themselves.

Let me see if I've got this straight...Are you saying that I'M only looking out for myself by stating that a raise for only the narrowbodies(15% +/- of our crewforce), in the next contract, might not go over very well? I'd argue that you're the one that can't seem to see past his own nose.

I'd also say about 600 guys on the 757 is probably pretty accurate. Maybe up to 800...I don't know. Traditionally, a domestic narrowbody is crewed to about 3-4 crews per airframe. If we get 100 or so, that would be 600-800 guys, out of 4600. What, do you think we're going to get 400 757s or something?

I too, think the 757 should pay more than the 727 does. Just based on productivity alone it should pay more. But, no raise for widebodies(which with inflation, is effectively a paycut), so we can bring the 757 up to widebody pay? I don't think so.

Overnitefr8
04-11-2010, 07:06 AM
I'd also say about 600 guys on the 757 is probably pretty accurate. Maybe up to 800...I don't know. Traditionally, a domestic narrowbody is crewed to about 3-4 crews per airframe. .

Actually, right now we have approximately 95 in each seat with 20 aircraft and we we're undermanned. Most days there is only 1 F/O on reserve for each reserve period. I'd say 5 -6 crews or slightly more per aircraft would be more accurate for your discussion.

Busboy
04-11-2010, 07:15 AM
Actually, right now we have approximately 95 in each seat with 20 aircraft and we we're undermanned. Most days there is only 1 F/O on reserve for each reserve period. I'd say 5 -6 crews or slightly more per aircraft would be more accurate for your discussion.

Take out the "pay only's" and you have 76 Capts and 74 F/Os. Which fits the 3-4 crews per aircraft profile. Initially, a new aircraft will have a whacky ratio of instructors to pilots that will skew the numbers, as well.

OffRoad5150
04-11-2010, 07:23 AM
It's embarrassing to work for a company that hired, fired and re-hired someone known as "the puppet lady". An accident waiting to happen, and she's got a 777 captain training date!

trashhauler
04-11-2010, 09:13 AM
It's embarrassing to work for a company that hired, fired and re-hired someone known as "the puppet lady". An accident waiting to happen, and she's got a 777 captain training date!

I seriously doubt that the company had a choice in bringing her back.

KnightFlyer
04-11-2010, 11:17 AM
It's embarrassing to work for a company that hired, fired and re-hired someone known as "the puppet lady". An accident waiting to happen, and she's got a 777 captain training date!

Talk to the hand!

JethroFDX
04-11-2010, 11:32 AM
..............

Good Beer
04-11-2010, 02:03 PM
It's embarrassing to work for a company that hired, fired and re-hired someone known as "the puppet lady". An accident waiting to happen, and she's got a 777 captain training date!

She's not that bad. Not the best of the best (especially in the personality department), but an OK captain to fly with. She is paranoid enough about paperwork ect. that I guarantee you wont get dinged for that kind of stuff.....I've seen worse here.

The Walrus
04-11-2010, 02:07 PM
Let me guess, she gave you all of the landings, just like she used to try to do as an f/o, but the capts would make her fly. She is like a sea gull, you have to throw rocks at her to get her to fly.

Good Beer
04-11-2010, 02:14 PM
Nope, pretty much ops normal. She even took a leg into SAN. Granted I didnt fly with her on "varsity":rolleyes: days, but like I said, I've seen worse.

HazCan
04-11-2010, 03:19 PM
She's not that bad. Not the best of the best (especially in the personality department), but an OK captain to fly with. She is paranoid enough about paperwork ect. that I guarantee you wont get dinged for that kind of stuff.....I've seen worse here.

Youve flown with worse than the puppet lady????!!! Holy Shiite, that's saying something right there!

Good Beer
04-11-2010, 06:03 PM
unfortunately....yes.

frozenboxhauler
04-11-2010, 08:39 PM
Did you ever fly with "The Iguana"? She was my favorite!
fbh

md11phlyer
04-11-2010, 10:23 PM
Luana dots..... Ha. Heard the stories.

30 From Bottom
04-12-2010, 12:27 AM
Back to the 777. Anyone heard the rumor of having 13 777s by the end of 2010? Sounds like the company really likes the airplane and wants them faster than previously reported.

Overnitefr8
04-12-2010, 05:32 AM
Back to the 777. Anyone heard the rumor of having 13 777s by the end of 2010? Sounds like the company really likes the airplane and wants them faster than previously reported.

We should have 10 by the end of the calendar year unless something has changed in the last few weeks.

990Convair
04-12-2010, 07:48 AM
We should have 10 by the end of the calendar year unless something has changed in the last few weeks.

Yep...the 13 number is what i heard too. Also heard alpa won the 777 pay lawsuit as well.

MaydayMark
04-12-2010, 07:52 AM
Yep...the 13 number is what i heard too. Also heard alpa won the 777 pay lawsuit as well.


It was a grievance (not really the same as a lawsuit I don't believe?). Although I REALLY hope we won, I'd be really disappointed in MY union if the haven't put that word out to ALL of us dues paying members. Did I miss an email?

RedeyeAV8r
04-13-2010, 06:44 AM
It was a grievance (not really the same as a lawsuit I don't believe?).

Small point, but this has been stated before. The 777 pay issue is neither a lawsuit nor a grievance.

It is a Contractual Arbitration per Section 26K (new aircraft).

BTW I am sure ALPA would have published such a Win if it has occurred, don't you think?

v1 uh-oh
04-13-2010, 08:06 AM
Small point, but this has been stated before. The 777 pay issue is neither a lawsuit nor a grievance.

It is a Contractual Arbitration per Section 26K (new aircraft).

BTW I am sure ALPA would have published such a Win if it has occurred, don't you think?


Pardon my ignorance, (I've got plenty if someone needs some), but what does it mean to us if we win/lose this arbitration.

Thanks

fdx727pilot
04-13-2010, 08:21 AM
Pardon my ignorance, (I've got plenty if someone needs some), but what does it mean to us if we win/lose this arbitration.

Thanks

Alpa (we) win, 777 pays the A380 rates in the CBA and 777 guys get it retroactively. Company wins (we lose) and the 777 pays WB rates like it does now. Of course, the arbitrator could go somewhere in between, also.

AFW_MD11
04-13-2010, 09:29 AM
Alpa (we) win, 777 pays the A380 rates in the CBA and 777 guys get it retroactively. Company wins (we lose) and the 777 pays WB rates like it does now. Of course, the arbitrator could go somewhere in between, also.

Keep in mind......this arbitration (or whatever) is ONLY about the 777 pay rate.

The "A380 Double-Plus" duty limits/rest rules are NOT a part of this arbitration.

Those rules have already been agreed to in our CBA and ONLY apply to the A380 - as specifically stated in the contract language.

Unless ALPA makes some kind of "deal", those CBA "A380 Double-Plus" rules that the company would like to apply to the 777 (as a replacement for the A380) will have to be negotiated separately from this Pay Rate arbitration.

fdx727pilot
04-13-2010, 09:54 AM
Keep in mind......this arbitration (or whatever) is ONLY about the 777 pay rate.

The "A380 Double-Plus" duty limits/rest rules are NOT a part of this arbitration.

Those rules have already been agreed to in our CBA and ONLY apply to the A380 - as specifically stated in the contract language.

Unless ALPA makes some kind of "deal", those CBA "A380 Double-Plus" rules that the company would like to apply to the 777 (as a replacement for the A380) will have to be negotiated separately from this Pay Rate arbitration.

And hopefully, that can be leveraged come CBA negotiations, to get some real improvements.

RedeyeAV8r
04-13-2010, 10:37 AM
Pardon my ignorance, (I've got plenty if someone needs some), but what does it mean to us if we win/lose this arbitration.

Thanks

No Apology required. My wife sez I'm ignorant all the time!

Per all the Union info I have read and been emailed and in talks with my block rep:

If we lose the Arbitration, the 777 will be considered a Wide Body and WB pay rates in our contract will apply.

If we Win this arbitration, the 777 will be a new Category Aircraft or potentially the 777 could be added or included to the A380 Category.
The former is more likely imho.

If we win a new Pay rate will be established for the 777 and per Section 26K any new pay rate will be retroactive. At least that is how I read it and how it was explained to me by my block rep. Fingers crossed!



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