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Tigerpilot1995
03-26-2010, 07:28 PM
Check out the open time for the next bid period. I would be willing to bet UPS is *&itting themselves about how to meet service, especially out of Asia. Aren't we the ones bringing the iPad to the US in the coming week? I sure hope UPS hasn't put their customer's contracts at jeopardy with this shortsighted decision to announce a furlough.


iarapilot
03-26-2010, 07:48 PM
Check out the open time for the next bid period. I would be willing to bet UPS is *&itting themselves about how to meet service, especially out of Asia. Aren't we the ones bringing the iPad to the US in the coming week? I sure hope UPS hasn't put their customer's contracts at jeopardy with this shortsighted decision to announce a furlough.

I sure hope you guys wont be like "us" knuckleheads here at FedEx.....meaning, dont fly extra when the screws are being put to you.

FlyFishin
03-26-2010, 07:49 PM
Check out the open time for the next bid period. I would be willing to bet UPS is *&itting themselves about how to meet service, especially out of Asia. Aren't we the ones bringing the iPad to the US in the coming week? I sure hope UPS hasn't put their customer's contracts at jeopardy with this shortsighted decision to announce a furlough.
Which fleet?


CheyDogFlies
03-26-2010, 09:21 PM
Good question, his position says -400 below his avatar, but it could be dated...

Has the trading all closed out? Or can more OT disappear?

Freighter Captain
03-26-2010, 09:52 PM
Volume is great all over Asia. Even flying good loads westbound out of ANC.

Great time to be cutting 170 pilots out of ANC. There ain't no's JA's happenin' up here anyway! (yeah right)

FR8TFLYER
03-27-2010, 03:34 AM
No favors for the company, best thing that could happen is for the wheels not to turn! Watch for the manglers to be flying a lot. Just this weekend on the 27th has several manglers flying MEF out of ANC, love it!

Roberto
03-27-2010, 07:34 AM
Which fleet?
I've checked all 8 domiciles, both seats, and cannot tell which one looks like it will be trouble for the reserves. That does not preclude some trips being outside of normal reserve coverage, but on the whole, I didn't see anything that looked that bad. Maybe there will be some added flights as time goes on. Can anyone point out a fleet/seat that looks otherwise?

CheyDogFlies
03-27-2010, 08:50 AM
I've checked all 8 domiciles, both seats, and cannot tell which one looks like it will be trouble for the reserves. That does not preclude some trips being outside of normal reserve coverage, but on the whole, I didn't see anything that looked that bad. Maybe there will be some added flights as time goes on. Can anyone point out a fleet/seat that looks otherwise?

Roberto, I think you may have lost your mind. I just looked at the ANC MD FO open time and RSV lists. Disregarding the sheer amount of open time, I put my emotions aside and put some names to paper between the OT and RADAR lists.

I ran out of reserves on the 4th line down--no more RSCA, RSCP, or RSVB available for that one. We can guess that JA2 might be available, but how long can the company keep that up? Note that the first 8 OT trips coincide by at least one day. Also note that the first 12 of 13 OT trips coincide by at least one day. There also, as always, is a lot of CQ, MIL, etc time happening that conflicts with possible assignments.

All Players, don't forget that when trading trips, do not increase by more than 5 hrs. Also, don't forget that the company asked for relief on the OTJA ban just a few days into it 2 months ago.

SaltyDog
03-27-2010, 09:10 AM
I've checked all 8 domiciles, both seats, and cannot tell which one looks like it will be trouble for the reserves. That does not preclude some trips being outside of normal reserve coverage, but on the whole, I didn't see anything that looked that bad. Maybe there will be some added flights as time goes on. Can anyone point out a fleet/seat that looks otherwise?

Roberto,
Got 4 JA calls this week. Don't look at OT, but almost one a day tells me alot.
YMMV

Kibutznik
03-27-2010, 09:53 AM
All Players, don't forget that when trading trips, do not increase by more than 5 hrs.

To much to ask from some people...:mad:
K

Roberto
03-27-2010, 11:07 AM
...the ANC MD FO open time and RSV lists... I ran out of reserves on the 4th line down...

ChevyDog,

Thanks for the info. I was wondering where the limiting seats are, so I will keep an eye on that one and any others that are identified.

Roberto

say that again
03-27-2010, 01:31 PM
No favors for the company, best thing that could happen is for the wheels not to turn! Watch for the manglers to be flying a lot. Just this weekend on the 27th has several manglers flying MEF out of ANC, love it!
I know, isn't it great! We're saving the company a ton of money on all that money they used to pay out in over time! Now the FQS are actually doing what they get paid to do! ;)

And to answer your next question, no, I am not management.

Buck92
03-27-2010, 02:22 PM
If UPS keeps this up, they'll start missing service and losing long-term customers. Poppin pimples on their funny nose with a hatchet...

JustUnderPar
03-27-2010, 03:01 PM
I know, isn't it great! We're saving the company a ton of money on all that money they used to pay out in over time! Now the FQS are actually doing what they get paid to do! ;)

And to answer your next question, no, I am not management.

I think this may be the point of the IPA doing this. The FQS are now doing work that Union workers once did. UPS is getting ready to cross a line.

They want FedEx to unionize their drivers, but they dont want their own pilots unionized(the FQS's).

Guess we shall see how it plays out.

JustUnderPar
03-27-2010, 03:06 PM
ChevyDog,

Thanks for the info. I was wondering where the limiting seats are, so I will keep an eye on that one and any others that are identified.

Roberto

Roberto,
I think if you look at how much OT is out there, the company will have a hard time covering it. It's never as simple as it looks. The last 45 days or so the reserve usage in ANC is way up. There was almost NO OT in the system to start with when the furlough was announced. Now things are different.

Short sighted many believe this is what the company wants, maybe. OT/JA bans dont work, maybe. But long term when we show what the FQS's are doing. Taking our jobs. We will win.

The next couple of months will be interesting to say the least.

JUP

Roberto
03-27-2010, 04:24 PM
...But long term when we show what the FQS's are doing. Taking our jobs. We will win...
I believe UPS will have a counter argument that they have not replaced any IPAers (do you see managers awarded any lines?). They will have ample statistics showing an over-manning situation, numbers which the IPA has mostly concurred with.

What the managers are doing has been a contractual provision for over 21 years and 3 UPS/IPA contracts (past practice). No managers have been hired as a result of the impending IPA furlough.

If the managers are used in greater numbers, it will only be after IPAers voluntarily refrain or decline from flying patterns that they have a long history of accepting. If the IPA wants the flying, they can have it. No replacement there.

turkeydrvr
03-27-2010, 04:54 PM
What the managers are doing has been a contractual provision for over 21 years and 3 UPS/IPA contracts (past practice).

Roberto,

The company has never flown FQS (most don't manage anything) during a furlough have they? We know you don't think the ban is worth anything and you disagree with it. The EB sees it differently, but you already know that. As others have said, we will have to see how it plays out, but I will let the EB speak for me.

Ernst
03-27-2010, 05:01 PM
Maybe UPS did not write a big enough check to the anti-oxidant lobby to combat all of these free radicals in the NLRB?

... President Barack Obama announced Saturday he would bypass a vacationing Senate and name 15 people to key administration jobs, wielding for the first time the blunt political tool known as the recess appointment.

... The 15 appointees to boards and agencies include the contentious choice of union lawyer Craig Becker to the National Labor Relations Board. Republicans had blocked his nomination on grounds he would bring a radical pro-union agenda to the job ...

Freightpuppy
03-27-2010, 05:10 PM
Hmmmmm, maybe Obama will do at least one thing right while in office.....

SaltyDog
03-27-2010, 05:22 PM
I believe UPS will have a counter argument that they have not replaced any IPAers (do you see managers awarded any lines?). They will have ample statistics showing an over-manning situation, numbers which the IPA has mostly concurred with.

What the managers are doing has been a contractual provision for over 21 years and 3 UPS/IPA contracts (past practice). No managers have been hired as a result of the impending IPA furlough.

If the managers are used in greater numbers, it will only be after IPAers voluntarily refrain or decline from flying patterns that they have a long history of accepting. If the IPA wants the flying, they can have it. No replacement there.

Roberto,
You miss the most important element of the contractually allowed JA/OT ban:

Union solidarity.

Shows UPS management where we stand with the first 54, then the rest of the 170, right on up to the 300. As a leader, I know you comprehend this principle.

We can quibble on tactical results (and do counter that increased flying while we have union crews furloughed proves class and craft, and 6th District Court proved that they are 'supervisors' not managers.)

Too many of us get distracted by the tactical element and lose sight of the strategic necessity, but that is the essential element of the OT/JA ban. How are you voting? I am with the EB and IPA. It isn't simply altruism, we all get better benefits by staying together long term. Something FQS don't enjoy. They rely on the IPA for a reference point for compensation and have no real job protection. Something they have the opportunity to enjoy going forward.

JustUnderPar
03-27-2010, 05:56 PM
I believe UPS will have a counter argument that they have not replaced any IPAers (do you see managers awarded any lines?). They will have ample statistics showing an over-manning situation, numbers which the IPA has mostly concurred with.

What the managers are doing has been a contractual provision for over 21 years and 3 UPS/IPA contracts (past practice). No managers have been hired as a result of the impending IPA furlough.

If the managers are used in greater numbers, it will only be after IPAers voluntarily refrain or decline from flying patterns that they have a long history of accepting. If the IPA wants the flying, they can have it. No replacement there.

Well Bob it really does not matter what you think does it! It really does not matter what I think does it? What will matter is what a judge thinks.

That is about it.:cool:

TheBaron
03-27-2010, 07:05 PM
Check out the open time for the next bid period. I would be willing to bet UPS is *&itting themselves about how to meet service, especially out of Asia. Aren't we the ones bringing the iPad to the US in the coming week? I sure hope UPS hasn't put their customer's contracts at jeopardy with this shortsighted decision to announce a furlough.

No...you are not.
:p

jungle
03-27-2010, 07:54 PM
Maybe UPS did not write a big enough check to the anti-oxidant lobby to combat all of these free radicals in the NLRB?

... President Barack Obama announced Saturday he would bypass a vacationing Senate and name 15 people to key administration jobs, wielding for the first time the blunt political tool known as the recess appointment.

... The 15 appointees to boards and agencies include the contentious choice of union lawyer Craig Becker to the National Labor Relations Board. Republicans had blocked his nomination on grounds he would bring a radical pro-union agenda to the job ...

That is so touching. A dog within sight of the shore seldom drowns, but sometimes they can't climb the seawall. Paid guns go either way in a New York minute.:D

JustUnderPar
03-27-2010, 11:29 PM
No...you are not.
:p

You are right its not UPS or FedEx. Its the USPS!!:eek:

Roberto
03-28-2010, 02:41 AM
...The FQS are now doing work that Union workers once did.

...Union solidarity... the OT/JA ban...

SaltyDog, That seems to me to provide crystal-clear evidence that FQS contractually allowed flying is not the result of UPS replacing IPA crewmembers, but of the IPA turning the flying down in a coordinated effort directed by the union leadership. UPS will have ample data to support that argument.

However, as JustUnderPar says, What will matter is what a judge thinks (if it ever gets to that stage).

Luckydawg
03-28-2010, 05:17 AM
wow, a bit of open time on the MD Anchorage. That is the aircraft where the extra Apple segments are going to. The 400 is dedicated with customers already. It's a 5 week period that takes us beyond May 22, I didn't catch the number of flights or which city it's mfr in. Anyone know if the lines are built yet? Are they the CAN flights in open time?

TheBaron
03-28-2010, 06:11 AM
You are right its not UPS or FedEx. Its the USPS!!:eek:

Since when? I order a lot of stuff from Apple and it always comes FedEx. 99.9999999% positive a FedEx truck will be delivering my wife's new iPad next Saturday. Sorry for the thread creep.

JustUnderPar
03-28-2010, 08:37 AM
Since when? I order a lot of stuff from Apple and it always comes FedEx. 99.9999999% positive a FedEx truck will be delivering my wife's new iPad next Saturday. Sorry for the thread creep.


It was a joke. I have no idea how Apple delivers their stuff. I am sure it is like everything else. They go with the "cheapest" delivery option.

The Apple stuff UPS is flying will be the products coming from China. I am sure they will use whom ever to get it here. There will be a lot of lift required and Fedex clearly has an advantage over UPS in that department.

JustUnderPar
03-28-2010, 08:50 AM
SaltyDog, That seems to me to provide crystal-clear evidence that FQS contractually allowed flying is not the result of UPS replacing IPA crewmembers, but of the IPA turning the flying down in a coordinated effort directed by the union leadership. UPS will have ample data to support that argument.

However, as JustUnderPar says, What will matter is what a judge thinks (if it ever gets to that stage).

I love these debates!

On thing Roberto is the IPA is following the contract. You cannot force people to work overtime (except in a few instances in the contract concerning international operations). UPS is be violating the intent of Labor law by doing as I have mentioned.

The IPA did not create this problem. UPS did. I hope we can at least agree with that? UPS canceled the MOU. UPS decided to furlough. I could go on and on.

BrownBusDriver
03-28-2010, 01:03 PM
I love these debates!

On thing Roberto is the IPA is following the contract. You cannot force people to work overtime (except in a few instances in the contract concerning international operations). UPS is be violating the intent of Labor law by doing as I have mentioned.

The IPA did not create this problem. UPS did. I hope we can at least agree with that? UPS canceled the MOU. UPS decided to furlough. I could go on and on.

I think it is pretty clear that Roberto is out for his own good and interest, so why waste you time talking about the IPA.

Kibutznik
03-28-2010, 01:45 PM
I think it is pretty clear that Roberto is out for his own good and interest, so why waste you time talking about the IPA.

BBD you hit the nail on the head, couldnt agree with you more....:D

Buck92
03-28-2010, 02:18 PM
Speaking generally, I think this is to be expected with the over 60s now. Before, hanging out on the panel (even at < half pay) seemed like an option that could be milked, possibly for years. Now the clock is definintely clicking for them -- at 65 the music stops. So there is clearly a strong incentive for them to grab as much $$$ as they can in the next few years (possibly to make up for their greedy investing choices -- seriously, what financial advisor recommends being invested 90% in stocks 2-3 years from retirement?!). Not taking OT/JA is likely sticking in craws and as time goes on, more and more rationalization will be put forward to justify bad behavior engaged in purely for their self interest. I would be surprised if there isn't sufficient cheating on the ban by the end of the year for the company to easily fill any open seat without FQMs. It's the locust generation -- eat thru everything and keep going.

JustUnderPar
03-28-2010, 02:19 PM
I think it is pretty clear that Roberto is out for his own good and interest, so why waste you time talking about the IPA.

BBD,
I know that. Even if Bob does not. I am just try to point out to him the reason he has stayed on is what the IPA got for him. Not what UPS gave. Otherwise it would just be a crappy job that no one wanted. He gets a reminder every two weeks, he just does not listen very closely.

JUP

BoilerUP
03-29-2010, 05:59 AM
Aren't we the ones bringing the iPad to the US in the coming week?

Maybe, maybe not related:

News Headlines (http://www.cnbc.com/id/36081592)

Apple's iPad tablet computer hits U.S. shelves on Saturday, but fans who want the new touch-screen gadget shipped directly to them must wait a week.

The company began taking preorders for the iPad on March 12, promising to get the device to eager buyers by its store launch date of April 3rd.

Customers who placed pre-orders by March 27 will receive the device by that date, where Saturday delivery is available, but Apple said Sunday that new pre-orders won't be shipped out until April 12.

The Cupertino, California, company declined to give a reason for the shipping delay, but said would-be customers can still pre-order the iPad for in-store pickup on April 3, or purchase the device in stores that day.

The iPads going on sale will connect to Wi-Fi networks only and cost $499, $599 or $699, depending on the data storage capacity.

Versions that also can connect to "3G" cellular networks are expected to go on sale in late April for $629, $729 or $829. International releases also are planned for later in April.

BrownBusDriver
03-29-2010, 04:42 PM
BBD,
II am just try to point out to him the reason he has stayed on is what the IPA got for him. Not what UPS gave. Otherwise it would just be a crappy job that no one wanted.

JUP

I agree. I just get tired of individuals trying to justify their selfish behavior with some type of superior logic.

767pilot
04-08-2010, 05:13 PM
Roberto

Roberto, did you really trade a trip for a HNL layover?
Even if you disagree with the directives from our EB, is it that hard to obey them anyway?

brownie
04-08-2010, 05:29 PM
Roberto, did you really trade a trip for a HNL layover?
Even if you disagree with the directives from our EB, is it that hard to obey them anyway?

I don't think it was a HNL layover but a brasil one. I'm suprised he even has time to be on APC with all that xtra work he is doing.:rolleyes:

767pilot
04-08-2010, 06:23 PM
I don't think it was a HNL layover but a brasil one. I'm suprised he even has time to be on APC with all that xtra work he is doing.:rolleyes:

He's certainly catching a lot of **** for it, and I hate to see someones name besmirched if it is not deserved.

Jolly
04-08-2010, 09:52 PM
I just flew with a captain that said " guys getting ready to retire (64) should be included in the 170 OT/JA relief. " He was not 64 and had a rant about how 20+ years should get you some respect and appreciation before going out the door. Don't want to hijack the thread but this is the logic I have heard. As for as Bob goes, it is obvious he is not willing to give for the bottom 300. Typical " I've got mine" a-hole.

JustUnderPar
04-08-2010, 11:52 PM
Not smart to let ANYONE pick up extra time. Where do you draw the line? Getting ready to hit the street and I will not do it. Heard the EB is gonna fix this really soon.

FliFast
04-09-2010, 05:10 AM
I just flew with a captain that said " guys getting ready to retire (64) should be included in the 170 OT/JA relief. " He was not 64 and had a rant about how 20+ years should get you some respect and appreciation before going out the door. Don't want to hijack the thread but this is the logic I have heard. As for as Bob goes, it is obvious he is not willing to give for the bottom 300. Typical " I've got mine" a-hole.

There are arguments on both sides of the fence about the bottom 170 being able to pickup OT/JAs. The company would have a harder time if no one picked up open time. However, the EB which we as a group elected in by majority has given the bottom 170 guidance to fly extra to pad their income in the event they lose their job. I for one would love to stick it to the company, but I see the EB's point that family and their welfare is the top priority for our bottom 170.

I am not in the bottom 170...but am a few numbers after them in the second group of furloughees.

With that being said, I will not pick up time nor trade to exceed 5 hours. This makes it more diificult to put trips back-to-back and has increased my commute from Florida to Alaska. This is what we have to do to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our bottom 170 to show the company that furloughing during a time of econmic recovery and profitability is a long-lasting mistake.

Now, with that said. Since the lack of trip trading increases the number of commutes throughout the system for some of us..can we lower the number of P7s being bumped that are trying to get to work.

To be 64 years old and have 20+ years with ONE carrier, to be a Capt for most of your career, no mergers or furloughs is a dream come true.

Most had to retire at 60.

Some of us have been doing this 20 years and have worked for half-a-dozen carriers, which means half-a-dozen years at first year pay.

Some of us have been merged or acquired, and have lost decades of seniority and have been used as furlough fodder.

So to have a career as mentioned above, is a blessing.

FF

Luckydawg
04-09-2010, 10:45 AM
I'm in the 170 group. I had mixed feelings about picking up JA/open time. I don't anymore. I stand with the rest of the IPA (except Bob) and won't pick it up. I gave up a lot in the MOU too, I'd love to make it up. I thought that was a great program and why UPS walked away from it is beyond me. I guess because they can.

Well they are going to go on without me this summer, they can handle going on without me now.

I wrote my EB about this. I wish they would encourage all to abstain. I know this is a tough one and anyone in the bottom 54, I wouldn't blame you. Beyond the 54 though? I say stick it to them, that's just me. There will always be a group at the bottom that are just about to be furloughed and can be used as a buffer.

Why anyone at the top would pick up open time is beyond me. They fought the good fight in 88+. There was little to risk and much to gain back then. I guess they (the minority like Bob) have a different view now that the table has turned and time isn't on their side.

GOCKY
04-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Rumors are flying about of couple of Browns finest flight qualified women of aviation. Something about demotions? Anyone heard of something along this line?

767pilot
04-09-2010, 07:42 PM
Not smart to let ANYONE pick up extra time. Where do you draw the line? Getting ready to hit the street and I will not do it. Heard the EB is gonna fix this really soon.

What do you think that they are going to do to fix it? Do you mean that they are going to ask the 170 to refrain too?

767pilot
04-09-2010, 07:44 PM
Rumors are flying about of couple of Browns finest flight qualified women of aviation. Something about demotions? Anyone heard of something along this line?

Heard about one of them messing up some sort of a flap situation out west, and then the ensuing FAA checkride. A shame too, she is one of the good ones

Tigerpilot1995
04-09-2010, 08:42 PM
What do you think that they are going to do to fix it? Do you mean that they are going to ask the 170 to refrain too?

It would easily be supported by the 170, with very little exception.

767pilot
04-10-2010, 06:27 AM
It would easily be supported by the 170, with very little exception.

Got ya.


........................................

Xtwinbeechguy
04-10-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm bottom 54 and I DON'T PICK UP OPEN TIME OR J/A's. I know its tight for everyone, but we have to stick to our guns and make it hurt as much as we can.
So for me I guess its literally back to the Beech. Anyone know of anyone needing a semi sharp Twin Beech Captain?

767pilot
04-10-2010, 07:04 PM
yea, I was thinking that not many of the bottom guys seem to be. Removing their exemption would probably not make a difference in the flow of things

golfandfly
04-10-2010, 07:14 PM
I found Roberto's excuses for picking up extra flying to be weak and self centered. If he wanted captains pay, he should have bid it. Using his logic, what if everyone flew 30 hours extra? How many pilots could UPS furlough then? It's always me, me, me, with some. Totally dispicable. Karma?

767pilot
04-10-2010, 07:18 PM
He asked if what he did in MIA would make any difference at all in what UPS does with regards to the furlough. I'd ask, did what he did as an individual in the Air Force make any difference to the Russians? What kind of a unit has a guy working on his own because he disagrees with the leader? I know it isn't the military, but there is a reason that they do it that way. It isn't what individuals do, it is what we all do. I'm not sure I buy the career earnings stuff either. Of course you boost them by flying now. Any of us could....but we don't!

Kibutznik
04-10-2010, 07:31 PM
Seems to me that Roberto took a gamble bidding FO instead of CAPT. I bet he was hoping to cheri pick and pick up open time and hopefully make more as a (super) senior FO then as a junior CAPT up in ANC.
Unfortunately (for Roberto) this furlough screwed up his plans.
But Roberto wont let a silly OT/JA ban get in the way of his needs!
Justify it all you want Roberto, hope you sleep well at night knowing a majority of your co workers despise you! :mad:
Kibutznik

frozenboxhauler
04-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Wonderin' how long before THIS one gets shut down too,...;)
fbh

Roberto
04-11-2010, 05:27 AM
... I'm not sure I buy the career earnings stuff either...

It is simple addition. Here it is again if you care to check.

The following is a snapshot of one of those in the bottom 300.

I have 5 children at home with the oldest one starting college next year. There are no airlines hiring in the USA. There is no airline job or any kind of flying job I can just go get. If there is, please let me know. It probably doesn't matter anyway as there would be thousands of other unemployed pilots applying for the same job. I have no skills to find a non-paying job. I live where the unemployment rate is the highest in the nation. My wife got a job flipping burgers at McDonalds to try to increase our savings account if UPS furloughs because I can't increase my income while on an RDG. I will literally have to follow her in working at McDonalds.

Are all furloughed in the same situation? Probably not. An age distribution of the bottom 300 shows that members range from 29 to 56 years of age. We have no data regarding an individual's financial situation or his opportunities while on furlough.

Within these 300 there are certainly a wide range of situations. For example, some members will have access to income and benefits from second jobs or spousal employment, some will have extended or significant military pay and benefits, and some will have family help or personal savings. Many of these will need no outside help to weather a furlough. A few may have very expensive lifestyles that could be eliminated. Moreover, the age and family situation of those furloughed varies widely. Some are very young with no family, while others are in the situation described above.

Let's take a closer look at the member's situation described above. The member is a 4th year FO and 39 years of age. For demonstration purposes, let's assume a 3-year furlough, 10 years thereafter as an FO and the final 12 years as CPT until age 65. (This would put the FO to CPT upgrade during the 14th year of service, or the 17th year if a 3-year furlough is added.) At current pay rates, total pay over next 25 years would be almost $ 4 million plus over $ million in B-plan payments. If you take the total compensation of over 5 million divided by 25 years (which includes a 3-year furlough), that comes to just over a $200,000 per year average. This amount is in current dollars, and does not take into account future increases. It also is a fairly conservative estimate of time to upgrade and the length of furlough. A less conservative estimate would yield better results.

767pilot
04-11-2010, 05:35 AM
It is simple addition. Here it is again if you care to check.

What I don't buy is why it matters at all what his career earnings versus your are. I don't think it does matter to anyone but you. pretty soon you'll be arguing that these guys are lucky that they are being furloughed. We have been asked to do what we can to help out. The rest of us are. I understand that you don't agree with leadership on their tactics, but time and time again we have learned that things work out better when we step in line and not go off as individual agents. Wasn't that lesson taught in the armed services?

Roberto
04-11-2010, 05:38 AM
Seems to me that Roberto took a gamble bidding FO instead of CAPT. I bet he was hoping to cheri pick and pick up open time and hopefully make more as a (super) senior FO then as a junior CAPT up in ANC (not only ANC, but also A300 or MD11 SDF-rr)...

What you fail to grasp is that this is not about money. As I have said before, the previous bid period I put vacation and training on my trips and in the 8 weeks I was left with only one 2-day, 36-hour TAFB trip.

Are you for a reduced guarantee like FedEx? That will stop the furlough, and greatly reduce downgrades and forced moves to ANC. We would only lose some money, but have reduced schedules as an offsetting benefit.

golfandfly
04-11-2010, 06:57 AM
Man, this guy can justify anything to himself. Who knows/cares what his career earnings might be? It was probably projected to be a lot higher a few months ago. What did you think yours was going to be? Probably a lot higher since they past age 65. My point is that, at this time, we have no idea how much money a furloughed guy will make in his career.

Justifying your incessant greed on someone's projected earnings is lame. I believe you were asked not to increase your line by more than 5 CH. Is this correct?

No one mentioned reduced guarantees. Where are you coming up with this stuff?

How is this not about the money? Did you donate your salary? Did you get paid for the trip? Would you have flown the trip for free? Please tell me tha you didn't increase your line by 30 hours just for fun. It was all about the money. Do think we are buying this spew?

Nice team work.

Freightpuppy
04-11-2010, 07:02 AM
It seems very cut and dry to me. No excuses. Union suggests not line improving for more then 5 extra hours! There are some trips that would have made life easier for me that put me over 5 hours and I didn't do it because it's the right thing to do now. Hello!?!?!?!? Roberto, your excuses are LAME!

Roberto
04-11-2010, 07:25 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think any of my replies to your posts can be correctly characterized as "excuses." I have not asked to be "excused" as that is not my intent. My replies are merely to correct the record of the posters who err in their facts.

767pilot
04-11-2010, 07:27 AM
The fact is that you went to VCP to enhance your layover, and enhanced your paycheck when we have been asked not to do that. the rest has been a deflection of that fact which none of us understand or care about. Come back to the team!

The Walrus
04-11-2010, 07:35 AM
The fact is that you went to VCP to enhance your layover, and enhanced your paycheck when we have been asked not to do that. the rest has been a deflection of that fact which none of us understand or care about. Come back to the team!

Surely not the first or last pilot to surrender their morals for an extra night at the Red Lion.:eek:

weatherman
04-11-2010, 07:44 AM
he couldn't care less about the solidarity policy. he only cares about his paycheck.

greed is a powerful thing.

Roberto
04-11-2010, 08:04 AM
he couldn't care less about the solidarity policy. he only cares about his paycheck.

greed is a powerful thing.

Weatherman,

You don't seem to see the contradiction in your statement. My understanding is that UPS offered to stop the furlough (thereby reducing associated downgrades and forced displacements to ANC) if we accepted a lesser guarantee (like FedEx). That would require lesser paychecks. It seems to me that by refusing that offer the entire membership would meet your definition of "greedy."

Slice
04-11-2010, 08:20 AM
Weatherman,

You don't seem to see the contradiction in your statement. My understanding is that UPS offered to stop the furlough (thereby reducing associated downgrades and forced displacements to ANC) if we accepted a lesser guarantee (like FedEx). That would require lesser paychecks. It seems to me that by refusing that offer the entire membership would meet your definition of "greedy."

You know why that wasn't an option. You really need to shut your man-pleaser. Do us a favor, if you're gonna pick up trips or pad your line go to places without internet so you can be spared from your drivel.

golfandfly
04-11-2010, 08:33 AM
They aren't telling everyone to stop earning a living, just fly your line. To make it more reasonable, you can trade up 5 hours.

Nice try deflecting criticism. You justify being greedy by talking about these guys possible career earnings. Weak. Others have resisted the urge, but since it's just little ol' you in Miami, what difference would that make? What if everyone else thought like you?

A real piece of work...

Roberto
04-11-2010, 08:35 AM
You know why that wasn't an option. You really need to shut your man-pleaser. Do us a favor, if you're gonna pick up trips or pad your line go to places without internet so you can be spared from your drivel.

Actually, I do not know why that wasn't an option.

As for my postings, I have not started any threads, just replied to posts, such as yours.

767pilot
04-11-2010, 08:48 AM
Weatherman,

You don't seem to see the contradiction in your statement. My understanding is that UPS offered to stop the furlough (thereby reducing associated downgrades and forced displacements to ANC) if we accepted a lesser guarantee (like FedEx). That would require lesser paychecks. It seems to me that by refusing that offer the entire membership would meet your definition of "greedy."

maybe they did, and maybe they didn't. Maybe that makes us all greedy, I don't care. That doesn't make it an excuse to go off of the reservation

The Walrus
04-11-2010, 10:18 AM
Hey, could you guys move this to FDX- More Memphis Honors, I would like to see it shut down by COB today.

gremlin
04-11-2010, 11:04 AM
Weatherman,

You don't seem to see the contradiction in your statement. My understanding is that UPS offered to stop the furlough (thereby reducing associated downgrades and forced displacements to ANC) if we accepted a lesser guarantee (like FedEx). That would require lesser paychecks. It seems to me that by refusing that offer the entire membership would meet your definition of "greedy."

Roberto,

I was at the IPA meeting where SF presented the company's demands for concessions to stop the furlough. It was much more than a reduction of guarantee. IIRC in addition to a guarantee reduction it included going back to 2008 pay scales (which represents a larger percentage cut to junior pilots), a 2 or 3% reduction in B plan contributions, and PBS. There were several more items in addition. And no snap backs IIRC. (Can someone here who was at that GMM confirm my statements?) You're statement that simply a reduced guarantee would stop the furlough is disingenuous.

I can not in my life recall when an airline furloughed pilots when they were making any money, much less billions of dollars profit and giving bonuses and raises to management.

So am I greedy or is it that I just don't like to have a large object shoved up my ass? You have some nerve.

g

MoosePileit
04-11-2010, 12:31 PM
Roberto,

You are the penultimate bid number cruncher. That's my compliment. It leads me to this:

Figures LIE and LIARS figure.
Please stop rationalizing in public. It's embarrassing.

You could have been part of something great in difficult times.

You chose against it. It's to the point of flame baiting, which doesn't help anyone unless fed by schadenfreude.

'Nuff said.

brownie
04-11-2010, 12:35 PM
It is simple addition. Here it is again if you care to check.

The following is a snapshot of one of those in the bottom 300.

I have 5 children at home with the oldest one starting college next year. There are no airlines hiring in the USA. There is no airline job or any kind of flying job I can just go get. If there is, please let me know. It probably doesn't matter anyway as there would be thousands of other unemployed pilots applying for the same job. I have no skills to find a non-paying job. I live where the unemployment rate is the highest in the nation. My wife got a job flipping burgers at McDonalds to try to increase our savings account if UPS furloughs because I can't increase my income while on an RDG. I will literally have to follow her in working at McDonalds.

Are all furloughed in the same situation? Probably not. An age distribution of the bottom 300 shows that members range from 29 to 56 years of age. We have no data regarding an individual's financial situation or his opportunities while on furlough.

Within these 300 there are certainly a wide range of situations. For example, some members will have access to income and benefits from second jobs or spousal employment, some will have extended or significant military pay and benefits, and some will have family help or personal savings. Many of these will need no outside help to weather a furlough. A few may have very expensive lifestyles that could be eliminated. Moreover, the age and family situation of those furloughed varies widely. Some are very young with no family, while others are in the situation described above.

Let's take a closer look at the member's situation described above. The member is a 4th year FO and 39 years of age. For demonstration purposes, let's assume a 3-year furlough, 10 years thereafter as an FO and the final 12 years as CPT until age 65. (This would put the FO to CPT upgrade during the 14th year of service, or the 17th year if a 3-year furlough is added.) At current pay rates, total pay over next 25 years would be almost $ 4 million plus over $ million in B-plan payments. If you take the total compensation of over 5 million divided by 25 years (which includes a 3-year furlough), that comes to just over a $200,000 per year average. This amount is in current dollars, and does not take into account future increases. It also is a fairly conservative estimate of time to upgrade and the length of furlough. A less conservative estimate would yield better results.

Roberto.

If you can justify your wrong doing on APC then why don't you paste this reasoning on bar and grill so eveyone can have a better understanding. Hidding behind a screen name will not solve anything, If your reasoning are legit then post this on the B&G otherwise go away.

say that again
04-11-2010, 12:39 PM
What you fail to grasp is that this is not about money. As I have said before, the previous bid period I put vacation and training on my trips and in the 8 weeks I was left with only one 2-day, 36-hour TAFB trip.

Are you for a reduced guarantee like FedEx? That will stop the furlough, and greatly reduce downgrades and forced moves to ANC. We would only lose some money, but have reduced schedules as an offsetting benefit.

I wish it was that simple. From what I've heard (I believe it too after dealing with UPS Labor for years) is that the laundry list of things UPS wanted to avert a furlough was much more than just a guarantee reduction. It was very far reaching and didn't stand a chance of being voted in by the membership.

The Walrus
04-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Isn't that what vacation is for, to knock out flying, get time off at home, and still get paid? Or is it so you can double up the rest of the month to pad the old checking account?

golfandfly
04-11-2010, 01:07 PM
Sounds like he wants to double up. Says it isn't about money... Now that's funny.... But since he bid FO, that makes it ok...

The Walrus
04-11-2010, 01:10 PM
Yeah, we've got a few senior f/o's pulling down $350k a year just like Robbie.

Kibutznik
04-11-2010, 01:10 PM
Wow Roberto...
You are amazing in your need to justify what you did. We all know it was wrong no amount of BS will make it OK.
We would all have more respect for you if you just admitted it was wrong and pledged not to do it again.
Mann up Roberto,
K

kronan
04-11-2010, 02:03 PM
Whenever someone tells you they're close to retirement and thus need to max out the retirement schedule....
ask them if they avoid thunderstorms by flying right up to the edge then making a 90 left or right to avoid flying into it.

if only they could have known retirement was coming someday, damn those mgt bastriches for keeping their birthdays a secret.

IF Only-
I had known I was going to live this long might have taken better care of myself.
I had known I was going to make it to retirement, might not have spent every penny I earned.
If only....

weatherman
04-11-2010, 02:23 PM
increasing line value by 33 hours when people are weeks from being furloughed is not only pathetic, but against the union solidarity policy. i wish the guy would just go away for good. he'll never get a kind word, jumpseat or anything else from me.

Freightpuppy
04-11-2010, 06:51 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think any of my replies to your posts can be correctly characterized as "excuses." I have not asked to be "excused" as that is not my intent. My replies are merely to correct the record of the posters who err in their facts.

That's even more pathetic....you aren't even making excuses....you just don't give a crap. Noone is going to sympathize with you.

Buck92
04-11-2010, 08:04 PM
You are the penultimate bid number cruncher. That's my compliment.

Hahaha -- meaning "next to last!" Priceless. :D



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