Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Not enough lift? - UPS


Laughing_Jakal
03-30-2010, 10:30 AM
They picked a really good time to announce a furlough huh? Hopefully there aren't too many people picking up extra......we haven't figured that out yet over in the delta.

Thought I had read somewhere that you had the IPad contract.

Apple pushes back shipping of new iPad pre-orders - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Apple-pushes-back-shipping-of-apf-946523589.html?x=0&.v=2)


UPSFO4LIFE
03-30-2010, 10:47 AM
On Thursday of last week, UPS provided a confidential briefing to the IPA Executive Board concerning plans to move a large amount of product for the Apple computer corporation beginning on March 31 through April 4. In short, UPS will provide lift for Apple through a combination of the existing UPS air network along with five (5) calendar days of air subcontracting provided by Atlas Airlines.

Under the UPS/IPA contract, subcontracting is allowed for temporary volume surges defined as no more than 30-45 calendar days per year outside of peak—Article 1.D.1.c.(1).

UPS plans to utilize five of these days in conjunction with the Apple movement. Until today, UPS had not utilized any of its 30-45 subcontracting days for volume so far in 2010.

“We will closely monitor UPS subcontractor usage and will continue to make sure the Company remains in compliance with the collective bargaining agreement,” said IPA Scope Chair Luke Pyles.

Auger In
03-30-2010, 12:55 PM
This sounds like a serious violation of scope. It's despicable that this caveat in the contract permits this sort of theft. I have a buddy in the bottom 300 who's about to have his life turned upside down and "Oops" is subcontracting work due to a surge in volume? How about keeping the bottom 300 on the payroll if there's that much business.


HercDriver130
03-30-2010, 01:08 PM
How is it a violation of scope if its in the contract?

JustUnderPar
03-30-2010, 02:06 PM
I dont think the "intent" of the CBA was to allow subcontractors, during a furlough, at any other time than peak?

Anyone read this a different way?

JustUnderPar
03-30-2010, 02:09 PM
How is it a violation of scope if its in the contract?

Not a violation of scope. But the use of contractors with a furlough going on sounds pretty fishy. Dont you agree??

HercDriver130
03-30-2010, 03:19 PM
Absolutely.....I was just asking the poster above me how it was a violation of scope... Is pretty crappy but you know those mgt guys stay up nights finding loop holes in contracts to exploit.

"Intent" will buy you squat..... thats the problem.... I agree with you.. the intent envisioned by the union when they signed off on it was that it would be used as a last resort when all hands where on deck so to speak... problem is it does not appear it was spelled out exactly enough and some bean counter is going to exploit that loophole if at all possible.

Vman
03-31-2010, 09:18 PM
In the event crewmembers are on furlough and the Company utilizes a subcontractor for the 30 to 45 day annual period provided in c.(1) above, the Company shall pay protect those crewmembers who in seniority order could have performed the flying provided: (i) The subcontractor is a carrier operating aircraft leased from the Company, (ii) the affected crewmembers have not already been recalled to work and are in training and (iii) the affected crewmember(s) has not refused recall. This paragraph shall not apply to common carriage movements. The number of crewmembers to be pay protected will be based on the number which would be necessary to operate the subcontractor’s route(s) under this Agreement.
d. When entering into subcontracts under paragraph c. above, the Company

Looks like some of us may get a Christmas Bonus...
I wonder about the "common carriage movement" portion though...

Freightpuppy
03-31-2010, 09:27 PM
Looks like some of us may get a Christmas Bonus...
I wonder about the "common carriage movement" portion though...
[/SIZE]

Good luck with that one. I'm sure you'll have to grieve it before you see any money. They are jipping me on 4 hours of homestudy so I'm sure they won't just send you the money without a fight.

de727ups
03-31-2010, 09:28 PM
Also, are any crewmember's "on furlough" between March 31st and April 4th? I would say nobody's "on furlough" until somebody's actually been furloughed. So far, I believe, there has only been an announcement of the intent to furlough.

HercDriver130
03-31-2010, 11:57 PM
plus it says the subcontractor has to be using aircraft leased from UPS...... ATLAS or whomever is certainly using their own lift to provide services....

Spoon
04-01-2010, 01:57 AM
Exactly. Seems like we all have language in our contracts that the company can drive a bus through. "I guess they got us on that one".

fdxmd11fo
04-01-2010, 04:04 AM
Spoon, that is because we use pilots instead of lawyers to negotiate our contracts. Sure we have lawyers looking over our shoulders but the company uses better lawyers than we do, and every pilot group out there continues to get screwed by their contract

Spoon
04-01-2010, 04:30 AM
Agreed. We have a lot of talent on our side doing the best they can, but they can't be masters of everything.

Vito
04-01-2010, 08:11 AM
Fdxmd11fo,

It also doesn't help when our IPA negociators had negociated $235/hr starting pay for Capts and our bretheren at FedEx low ball us at $225/hr!! and when the IPA negociates a No Open Time pick-up in the event of a furlough, and our FedEx bretheren negociate a "we'll take a 20 hour per month pay cut if you don't furlough" which initiated UPS current push to make us take concesssions/pay cuts like FedEx!!. When our union told UPS "pound salt, the furlough was initiated. It would be nice if the IPA and FedEx's MEC would talk to eachother and maybe your MEC could grow a set, instead of cutting us off at the knees. Not trying to flamebait, but lawyers aren't the problem....

kc10/c130
04-01-2010, 08:23 AM
Vito-
I mean really??? You have done absolutely ZERO fact checking on this one.

Vito
04-01-2010, 08:38 AM
KC10/C130
I'll be the first to admit the details may be off, but I have it from the 2of the highest ranked IPA negociators that we (IPA) had our starting pay agreed at $235/hr.....it was a done deal, and then a few weeks before the tentative agreement was released you guys opened up at $225/hr at which point UPS came back and pushed us down!! directly from 2 of the highest union officials there. The reduced pay in luie of furlough clause you guys have is fine, you guys are trying to help your fellow pilots, but you have to realize that UPS came to us to get us to take the same pay concessions as FedEx, and we stood our ground, and the company pulled the furlough trigger. Obviously there are many other reasons for the furlough, but, again very high union folks have told us that UPS was fishing for pay concessions like the FedEx guys did!! My only point is if we both stand our ground we'll both prosper....Can't argue with my facts, I just wish your union would sharpen their teeth a little...My FedEx buddies agree with me as well.

Freighter Captain
04-01-2010, 09:02 AM
KC10/C130
I'll be the first to admit the details may be off, but I have it from the 2of the highest ranked IPA negociators that we (IPA) had our starting pay agreed at $235/hr.....it was a done deal, and then a few weeks before the tentative agreement was released you guys opened up at $225/hr at which point UPS came back and pushed us down!! directly from 2 of the highest union officials there.

You're absolutely right on this point, Vito. I heard it from the EB as well. FedEx undercut us by some $10 per hour.

Not a huge point, in my opinion, but it's still a fact. Thanks for pointing out, Vito.

McBoeingBus
04-01-2010, 09:07 AM
Vito,
Without an inside track, it seems that FedEx is trying to keep all of its pilots employed. Have you ever been furloughed? Even if you have, where is it written that furloughs are part of the ATP? UPS has no reason to furlough, they are making a ton, but remember your soon to be unemployed.

The Walrus
04-01-2010, 09:10 AM
I am confused. When you guys get paid regardless of wide or narrow body, how can our pay be a reflection on yours? This $225 opening pay, was that narrow body pay, because I get $240 an hour, and as far as our "20 hour cut in pay", that is something that in our opinion that is being used against us illegally, not something that we rolled over on.

Vito
04-01-2010, 09:20 AM
Walrus,

This was starting pay back in 2006, I make more than that now cause we negociated pay bumps each year. I'm just quoting DIRECTLY from the people who were at the table....not really trying to start a flame war just wish both our unions would stand firm on some of these issues together.

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 09:20 AM
This has to be the dumbest conversation ever!

Freighter Captain
04-01-2010, 09:22 AM
I am confused. When you guys get paid regardless of wide or narrow body, how can our pay be a reflection on yours? This $225 opening pay, was that narrow body pay, because I get $240 an hour, and as far as our "20 hour cut in pay", that is something that in our opinion that is being used against us illegally, not something that we rolled over on.

Walrus,

The $225 hourly figure was the FedEx negotiated widebody rate. When UPS got wind of this, they immediately backed out of the $235 that had already been agreed to. Not a huge step back, but a step back nonetheless.

Keep in mind that pay raises have happened for a few years now since then at both UPS/FDX, which is why the current rates are well above the $225.

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 09:33 AM
Maybe a better discussion here:

Not enough lift?

Well we are currently having at least 3 JA's on the -400 and MD-11 every day. The crews getting furloughed will be replaced by crew members from other fleets/domiciles. The problem will not fix itself in ANC. Once the other crew members are in place for ANC we will have JA's in every seat every domicile like what's happening in ANC.

Good job Atlanta. Just got my share holder report. The only good news I read is the amount of pay you guys gave yourselves. Forget about the people doing the work every day.:mad:

Way to lead. Freeze management pay. Pile on more work. Give yourselves HUGE raises at their expense. Way to build loyalty!!!!!!

Wait. You say we have the supervisors to come in and save the day? Well that day in court is coming.

New Brown Motto:

What can Brown do TO you!

FR8TFLYER
04-01-2010, 10:23 AM
Now the company in their infinite wisdom has manglers sitting hotel hot standby in HKG. These guys are miserable, can't say as I feel too sorry for them. If they were IPA, they would not be there, ha!

freightretriever
04-01-2010, 10:38 AM
Maybe a better discussion here:

Not enough lift?

Well we are currently having at least 3 JA's on the -400 and MD-11 every day. The crews getting furloughed will be replaced by crew members from other fleets/domiciles. The problem will not fix itself in ANC. Once the other crew members are in place for ANC we will have JA's in every seat every domicile like what's happening in ANC.


Theoretically is will actually get worse. When all is said and done and the 170 are gone they will have reduced the 747 FO seat in ANC by 5 if memory servers me correctly and the MD11 by some amount. Same for the captain seats. I don't have the RIF bid in front of me but my point is they will have less pilots by the end of the year in each seat and they can't even run the operation as it is..............and we are getting more airplanes some time this year as well. What looked good on paper to a bean counter and sounded good in a board room isn't turning out so well in reality :eek:

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 11:15 AM
Theoretically is will actually get worse. When all is said and done and the 170 are gone they will have reduced the 747 FO seat in ANC by 5 if memory servers me correctly and the MD11 by some amount. Same for the captain seats. I don't have the RIF bid in front of me but my point is they will have less pilots by the end of the year in each seat and they can't even run the operation as it is..............and we are getting more airplanes some time this year as well. What looked good on paper to a bean counter and sounded good in a board room isn't turning out so well in reality :eek:

I agree. I believe we are adding 4 747's and 5 767's this year!

Interesting times!

fdx727pilot
04-01-2010, 11:59 AM
Walrus,

This was starting pay back in 2006, I make more than that now cause we negociated pay bumps each year. I'm just quoting DIRECTLY from the people who were at the table....not really trying to start a flame war just wish both our unions would stand firm on some of these issues together.

Well, unless IPA was keeping Fedex ALPA updated on your negotiations, and the allegedly agreed upon pay rate, and asked ALPA to use that rate as our openers, it wasn't our frickin' problem. Since you guys want to have an independent union, you have to deal with all the ramifications.

Vito
04-01-2010, 01:06 PM
fedex727pilot

Amazing response!!! The IPA did tell the FedEx MEC our negociated rate, in the hope that you guys would up it a little,,,instead you lowered it!!! and your upset because you think we were hiding it from you????? strange

Why don't you ask your MEC members for the real answer.
'Lets leave it at this, in the future it would be nice if both our unions stood united and in solidarity when negociating issues common to us all.

Daniel Larusso
04-01-2010, 01:07 PM
not really trying to start a flame war

Shouting fire in a crowded theater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater)

Commando
04-01-2010, 01:38 PM
Totally 100% True. The IPA had 235 as the 12th year to 15th year Captains pay. It was closed. Then the FDX MEC opened with 218 or so. For there WB. They ended up with 224, one more dollar than our 223.

Dave Webb did many things my friends at FDX are still very peeved about.

The solution is, the two Unions need to talk more often and openly. I don't understand why there was such a rif between Webb and Miller.

Slice
04-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Well, unless IPA was keeping Fedex ALPA updated on your negotiations, and the allegedly agreed upon pay rate, and asked ALPA to use that rate as our openers, it wasn't our frickin' problem. Since you guys want to have an independent union, you have to deal with all the ramifications.

Yeah, because ALPA's been great for your non-purple brethren...:rolleyes:

Btdt, glad it's over. I'll take my chances outside of Herndon, thanks.

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 03:49 PM
Well, unless IPA was keeping Fedex ALPA updated on your negotiations, and the allegedly agreed upon pay rate, and asked ALPA to use that rate as our openers, it wasn't our frickin' problem. Since you guys want to have an independent union, you have to deal with all the ramifications.

Boy this is going no where fast! What is your problem with the IPA?

Daniel Larusso
04-01-2010, 04:29 PM
Yeah, because ALPA's been great for your non-purple brethren...:rolleyes:

Btdt, glad it's over. I'll take my chances outside of Herndon, thanks.

Yeah I guess if you only have a 8-10 year memory. Most careers are longer than that.

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 04:33 PM
Looks like the guys running the airline are really screwing this one up! Way to go!!

www.theipadguide.com/content/ipad-ups-tracking-information-causing-some-confusion/7171089

iPad UPS Tracking Information Causing Some Confusion | The iPad Guide[/url]

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Yeah I guess if you only have a 8-10 year memory. Most careers are longer than that.

Lots of drinking does that to you:D

Slice
04-01-2010, 04:46 PM
Yeah I guess if you only have a 8-10 year memory. Most careers are longer than that.

Not exactly sure what you're getting at but I became a member in '97. If you're saying it's only bad there the last 8-10 year then so what? ALPA's past glory years aren't going to put extra food on someone's table today.

Daniel Larusso
04-01-2010, 05:00 PM
Not exactly sure what you're getting at but I became a member in '97. If you're saying it's only bad there the last 8-10 year then so what? ALPA's past glory years aren't going to put extra food on someone's table today.

Just saying that yes it's been a rough 9-10 year period following a relatively good run from about 1998-9/11. Delta, US, NW, and UA contracts, actually able to get to cooling off periods/strikes with NWA, Comair, and TSA, regional contracts got better either in dollars/work rules, or elimination of alter egos, even niche carriers like Midwest Express had relatively good deals, scope was generally solid considering back then, etc. The ensuing time has been rough, no doubt, it just seems to me sometimes that all people remember is the bad times like they were/are the only times. Some of it was pretty much inevitable because of bk, some of it was because of strategic blunders and greed. The latter can be fixed by learning, getting in solid leadership and holding their feet to the fire-the simple stuff most pilots shy away from preferring to complain instead. I think most would realize by now that simply stepping away from ALPA doesn't resolve the issues of poor leadership choices, greed and crewforce apathy-APA, SWAPA, IBT, IPA, and the n.k.o.t.b USAPA have all proven that.

MX727
04-01-2010, 06:40 PM
So, since we are arguing about the pay rate, then the work rules must be identical?

The pay rate is meaningless by itself. Management knows that and they know that is the number that every frickin' pilot looks at. In the meantime, they shove shizzy work rules up your butt and your total pay for the amount of work you perform goes down.

Your are bi'chin' about apples and oranges if you are only comparing pay rates. What is UPS's duty rig? Trip rig? Maybe FedEx took a lower payrate because the rigs are better and total pay was hire than getting a higher rate but trading rigs.

Slice
04-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Just saying that yes it's been a rough 9-10 year period following a relatively good run from about 1998-9/11. Delta, US, NW, and UA contracts, actually able to get to cooling off periods/strikes with NWA, Comair, and TSA, regional contracts got better either in dollars/work rules, or elimination of alter egos, even niche carriers like Midwest Express had relatively good deals, scope was generally solid considering back then, etc. The ensuing time has been rough, no doubt, it just seems to me sometimes that all people remember is the bad times like they were/are the only times. Some of it was pretty much inevitable because of bk, some of it was because of strategic blunders and greed. The latter can be fixed by learning, getting in solid leadership and holding their feet to the fire-the simple stuff most pilots shy away from preferring to complain instead. I think most would realize by now that simply stepping away from ALPA doesn't resolve the issues of poor leadership choices, greed and crewforce apathy-APA, SWAPA, IBT, IPA, and the n.k.o.t.b USAPA have all proven that.

I hear what you're saying but 10 years is nearly a 1/3 of my career if I can bail before 60. Possible greater than 1/3 for many depending on when they got in...just saying.

JustUnderPar
04-01-2010, 06:49 PM
So, since we are arguing about the pay rate, then the work rules must be identical?

The pay rate is meaningless by itself. Management knows that and they know that is the number that every frickin' pilot looks at. In the meantime, they shove shizzy work rules up your butt and your total pay for the amount of work you perform goes down.

Your are bi'chin' about apples and oranges if you are only comparing pay rates. What is UPS's duty rig? Trip rig? Maybe FedEx took a lower payrate because the rigs are better and total pay was hire than getting a higher rate but trading rigs.

Okay. You've done it now!!

Our paint jobs are better than yours!:cool:

I won't even mention our AWESOME uniforms. That is another level of coolness.....:D

Freightpuppy
04-01-2010, 08:20 PM
Way to build loyalty!!!!!!



Like they care about loyalty!

Unfortunately, I've never seen an ad in the classifieds for "Airline Pilot" which makes me think they really especially don't care about our loyalty since there will ALWAYS be people willing to come fly for us.

Freightpuppy
04-01-2010, 08:21 PM
Now the company in their infinite wisdom has manglers sitting hotel hot standby in HKG. These guys are miserable, can't say as I feel too sorry for them. If they were IPA, they would not be there, ha!

Until they are in the union, I don't really care what the company does with them.