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robbreid
04-10-2010, 06:02 AM
The Kathryn Report (http://www.thekathrynreport.com/) news feeds and video . . .

PS; best site for all RSS news feeds and aviation accident/incident and general aviation related stories . . .


johnso29
04-10-2010, 06:36 AM
Prayers for all those touched by this tragedy. Tailwinds. :(

PinnacleFO
04-10-2010, 06:38 AM
Prayers for all those touched by this tragedy. Tailwinds. :(

So Sad thoughts with all those with polish backgrounds.


TonyWilliams
04-10-2010, 07:08 AM
Wow, is that plane a mess. RIP.

Sink r8
04-10-2010, 07:22 AM
Bloomberg says this was their fourth landing attempt. They turned down an offer to land at another base 200 km farther away.

B757200ER
04-10-2010, 07:27 AM
Tragic. A very unfortunate occurence.

stoki
04-10-2010, 07:49 AM
Huge loss for Poland.

Top political and military officials were on the flight. The elite of the Armed forces, as well as politics, including the president and his wife.

28 year old TU-154, overhauled last December. Visibility was poor, fog. Eye witness reports claim it was in a left bank when the left wing struck the tree tops.

President and the delegation were on their way to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Katyn Forest massacre where over 22,000 Polish POWs, most of which were high ranking or ranking officers and intelligence were murdered by Russian secret police in the Katyn forest. Now, 70 years later, in the area of the same forests.. the irony is huge.

This is a tragedy of epic proportions for Poland. :(

Romulus
04-10-2010, 10:14 AM
Always a tragedy to see so many lives snuffed out in an instant.

MeLu
04-11-2010, 03:31 AM
Always a tragedy to see so many lives snuffed out in an instant.
Please keep the prayers. I remind in Asia upon a visit with uncle and aunt, with my parents. They are dead now.Everybody was killed it is dads country and dads president. I knew him, and please all keep the prayers. Thanks God that I stayed with parents for a while. As mention to Kaoru once hence once where was a scandal with the licenses here is an answer. I had flown couple of times but I have a western european ID of mums territory. Shall see yes had spoken in Asia about a situation of a contractors if they could take ours they like, but how long can one be treated and being at a contract basis at an hour of a crisis. They are all death. Also had spoken with aunt about Lorry if she could come to train our pilots since no reason to get these contacts with the licenses. I will be flying in september.I asked all for Kadish my brother flies for teh best ones .... near by... Melu please keep the silent..

aviatorhi
04-11-2010, 07:10 AM
Just to clear some things up... as far as I can tell the plane held over the airport for 3 or 4 turns and crashed on the first approach... reported visibility was 500m and minimums for the approach were 1000m. ATC had advised the flight to divert to Moscow or Minsk, they were under pressure to land in Smolensk to attend a ceremony and decided to make one approach and then divert if they weren't able to land. The approach appeared normal until they were at about 200 feet, when the descent rate increased quite a bit and the rest is in the news.

That's about as much as I've been able to put together from Polish TV and Russia Today.

USMCFLYR
04-11-2010, 07:20 AM
Just to clear some things up... as far as I can tell the plane held over the airport for 3 or 4 turns and crashed on the first approach... reported visibility was 500m and minimums for the approach were 1000m. ATC had advised the flight to divert to Moscow or Minsk, they were under pressure to land in Smolensk to attend a ceremony and decided to make one approach and then divert if they weren't able to land. The approach appeared normal until they were at about 200 feet, when the descent rate increased quite a bit and the rest is in the news.

That's about as much as I've been able to put together from Polish TV and Russia Today.
This would be quite different from the intial reports of crashing on the 4th LANDING attempt. Thanks for sharing.

USMCFLYR

solinator
04-11-2010, 11:30 AM
RIP and blue skies to all affected by this tragedy. :(

I don't want to veer off the conversations here, but on a technical level, is 28 years old still okay for an airplane like this? It doesn't sound like a relevant thing if the plane was recently overhauled. Another question is if these planes are known to have instrumentation for CAT x landings... It doesn't look like it from all the reports, and I can't find any information on it.

Again, RIP, this is a tragedy for all our Polish friends.

aviatorhi
04-11-2010, 01:16 PM
The VC-25s used as Air Force One showed up at the USAF the same year that this TU-154 showed up in the Polish AF.

BigjetLiljet
04-11-2010, 04:40 PM
Each VC-25 has approx 6000 flight hours.

TonyWilliams
04-11-2010, 05:40 PM
Each VC-25 has approx 6000 flight hours.

And to put that in perspective, a 747-200 flying for an airline of this vintage probably has 50,000 to 100,000 hours.

aviatorhi
04-11-2010, 05:55 PM
Each VC-25 has approx 6000 flight hours.

This TU-154 had about 5000 hours.

captjns
04-11-2010, 07:52 PM
An article from the Aviation Herald. Pretty good read.

Crash: Polish Air Force T154 at Smolensk on Apr 10th 2010, impacted trees on first approach (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0)

Phil1111
04-11-2010, 08:39 PM
From NY Times

April 11, 2010
Crash Inquiry Is Focusing on Decision to Land Jet
By CLIFFORD J. LEVY

MOSCOW — Investigators examining the crash of the Polish president’s plane appeared Sunday to be focusing on why the pilot did not heed instructions from air traffic controllers to give up trying to land in bad weather in western Russia.

Their inquiry may lead to an even more delicate question: whether the pilot felt under pressure to land to make sure that the Polish delegation would not be late for a ceremony on Saturday in the Katyn forest, where more than 20,000 Polish officers and others were massacred by the Soviets during World War II.

Officials have recovered the flight voice recorder, but on Sunday they did not release transcripts of conversations in the cockpit or the control tower. Still, attention has been drawn to the pilot’s state of mind because of a previous incident involving the Polish president, Lech Kaczynski, who died along with numerous other senior Polish government and military officials in the crash.

In August 2008, during Russia’s brief war with Georgia, Mr. Kaczynski got into a dispute with a pilot flying his plane to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, according to reports at the time. Mr. Kaczynski demanded that the pilot land despite dangerous conditions, but the pilot disagreed and diverted to neighboring Azerbaijan.

Mr. Kaczynski threatened that there would be consequences for the pilot, the Polish newspaper Dziennik reported. “If someone decides to become a pilot, he cannot be fearful,” Mr. Kaczynski said. “After returning to the country, we shall deal with this matter.”

That pilot was not disciplined and received a medal for his service. But the defense minister later said that the pilot had suffered depression in the wake of the incident.

Lech Walesa, the former Polish president, told the newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza over the weekend that in these situations, the captain often sought the views of the government leaders on the plane.

“If there were any doubts, the leaders were always approached and asked for their decision, and only on this basis were further steps taken,” he said. “Sometimes the plane captain would make the decision himself, even against the recommendations. We do not yet know what happened, so let’s leave the explaining to the experts.”

Officials from both Russia and Poland were taking part in the inquiry into the crash, which killed 96 people, and they said preliminary evidence seemed to indicate that there were no technical malfunctions on the plane, though it was a 20-year-old, Soviet-designed Tupolev.

Prosecutors, forensic pathologists and crash investigators were working in Moscow and at the crash site in the city of Smolensk.

Throughout the weekend, the Russian government seemed to go out of its way to demonstrate its despair over the crash and its determination to conduct a wide-ranging inquiry, efforts that were well-received in Poland. The two countries have long had an uneasy relationship, though it has improved recently.

Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin of Russia went to Smolensk on Sunday for a ceremony to return Mr. Kaczynski’s body to Poland. Russian soldiers wearing red and black armbands carried his coffin, while a band played the Polish and Russian national anthems.

Mr. Putin and the Polish ambassador to Russia laid bouquets of red flowers beside the coffin as the red and white Polish flag covering it fluttered in the breeze. A Polish military honor guard carried the coffin onto the military plane back.

In Smolensk, Mr. Putin also held a meeting with top Russian public safety and law-enforcement officials that was broadcast on national television in Russia.

Aleksandr I. Bastrykin, chief of the prosecutor general’s investigation committee in Russia, told Mr. Putin that a preliminary examination suggested pilot error was to blame. “The pilot was informed of severe weather conditions, but nonetheless made a decision to land,” Mr. Bastrykin said.

Russian officials said Saturday that traffic controllers had several times told the plane not to land because of heavy fog, warned that it was descending too low and recommended that it go to another airport.

On Sunday, a Russian news service, Lifenews.ru, published an interview with an official who was identified as an air traffic controller at the airport. The controller said the pilot, after trying several times to land, indicated that he wanted to try once more.

“He said that if he did not land, then he would go to an alternate airport,” the controller said.

The traffic controller said that at that point, the pilot was asked for the plane’s altitude, but stopped responding to communication from the traffic control tower.

Mark V. Rosenker, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board in the United States and a retired Air Force major general, said the fact that the plane made several attempts to land indicated that “these guys were truly wanting to complete this mission at all cost.”

Mr. Rosenker was the head of the White House Military Office during the administration of President George W. Bush, and was thus responsible for the president’s transportation.

He said Sunday that the Polish pilot could have followed the air traffic controller’s warnings. But if he chose to do so, “He’s going to have to explain to somebody if he’s going to land somewhere else.”

And that could be difficult, Mr. Rosenker said.
Crash Inquiry Is Focusing on Decision to Land Jet - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/world/europe/12crash.html?ref=global-home)

MeLu
04-11-2010, 09:25 PM
lets keep the prayers only.

From NY Times

April 11, 2010
Crash Inquiry Is Focusing on Decision to Land Jet
By CLIFFORD J. LEVY

MOSCOW — Investigators examining the crash of the Polish president’s plane appeared Sunday to be focusing on why the pilot did not heed instructions from air traffic controllers to give up trying to land in bad weather in western Russia.

Their inquiry may lead to an even more delicate question: whether the pilot felt under pressure to land to make sure that the Polish delegation would not be late for a ceremony on Saturday in the Katyn forest, where more than 20,000 Polish officers and others were massacred by the Soviets during World War II.

Officials have recovered the flight voice recorder, but on Sunday they did not release transcripts of conversations in the cockpit or the control tower. Still, attention has been drawn to the pilot’s state of mind because of a previous incident involving the Polish president, Lech Kaczynski, who died along with numerous other senior Polish government and military officials in the crash.

In August 2008, during Russia’s brief war with Georgia, Mr. Kaczynski got into a dispute with a pilot flying his plane to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, according to reports at the time. Mr. Kaczynski demanded that the pilot land despite dangerous conditions, but the pilot disagreed and diverted to neighboring Azerbaijan.

Mr. Kaczynski threatened that there would be consequences for the pilot, the Polish newspaper Dziennik reported. “If someone decides to become a pilot, he cannot be fearful,” Mr. Kaczynski said. “After returning to the country, we shall deal with this matter.”

That pilot was not disciplined and received a medal for his service. But the defense minister later said that the pilot had suffered depression in the wake of the incident.

Lech Walesa, the former Polish president, told the newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza over the weekend that in these situations, the captain often sought the views of the government leaders on the plane.

“If there were any doubts, the leaders were always approached and asked for their decision, and only on this basis were further steps taken,” he said. “Sometimes the plane captain would make the decision himself, even against the recommendations. We do not yet know what happened, so let’s leave the explaining to the experts.”

Officials from both Russia and Poland were taking part in the inquiry into the crash, which killed 96 people, and they said preliminary evidence seemed to indicate that there were no technical malfunctions on the plane, though it was a 20-year-old, Soviet-designed Tupolev.

Prosecutors, forensic pathologists and crash investigators were working in Moscow and at the crash site in the city of Smolensk.

Throughout the weekend, the Russian government seemed to go out of its way to demonstrate its despair over the crash and its determination to conduct a wide-ranging inquiry, efforts that were well-received in Poland. The two countries have long had an uneasy relationship, though it has improved recently.

Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin of Russia went to Smolensk on Sunday for a ceremony to return Mr. Kaczynski’s body to Poland. Russian soldiers wearing red and black armbands carried his coffin, while a band played the Polish and Russian national anthems.

Mr. Putin and the Polish ambassador to Russia laid bouquets of red flowers beside the coffin as the red and white Polish flag covering it fluttered in the breeze. A Polish military honor guard carried the coffin onto the military plane back.

In Smolensk, Mr. Putin also held a meeting with top Russian public safety and law-enforcement officials that was broadcast on national television in Russia.

Aleksandr I. Bastrykin, chief of the prosecutor general’s investigation committee in Russia, told Mr. Putin that a preliminary examination suggested pilot error was to blame. “The pilot was informed of severe weather conditions, but nonetheless made a decision to land,” Mr. Bastrykin said.

Russian officials said Saturday that traffic controllers had several times told the plane not to land because of heavy fog, warned that it was descending too low and recommended that it go to another airport.

On Sunday, a Russian news service, Lifenews.ru, published an interview with an official who was identified as an air traffic controller at the airport. The controller said the pilot, after trying several times to land, indicated that he wanted to try once more.

“He said that if he did not land, then he would go to an alternate airport,” the controller said.

The traffic controller said that at that point, the pilot was asked for the plane’s altitude, but stopped responding to communication from the traffic control tower.

Mark V. Rosenker, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board in the United States and a retired Air Force major general, said the fact that the plane made several attempts to land indicated that “these guys were truly wanting to complete this mission at all cost.”

Mr. Rosenker was the head of the White House Military Office during the administration of President George W. Bush, and was thus responsible for the president’s transportation.

He said Sunday that the Polish pilot could have followed the air traffic controller’s warnings. But if he chose to do so, “He’s going to have to explain to somebody if he’s going to land somewhere else.”

And that could be difficult, Mr. Rosenker said.
Crash Inquiry Is Focusing on Decision to Land Jet - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/world/europe/12crash.html?ref=global-home)

Semaphore Sam
04-12-2010, 06:09 PM
lets keep the prayers only.

This is an aviation site, not a religious one. Causation, and pilot motivation, etc, are more appropriate here than religious sentiment. Sam

Semaphore Sam
04-12-2010, 06:55 PM
Just saw a report on PPrune that the Captain of the doomed aircraft was the F/O on the aircraft which diverted to Tbilisi due to unsafe conditions; the head of Poland (now dead) threatened the Captain with punishment for diverting. Interesting if true. Sam

MeLu
04-14-2010, 06:27 PM
Just saw a report on PPrune that the Captain of the doomed aircraft was the F/O on the aircraft which diverted to Tbilisi due to unsafe conditions; the head of Poland (now dead) threatened the Captain with punishment for diverting. Interesting if true. Sam



Thats the reason why I asked for the prayers only, since there is no reason to blame a military capt for it, who was young. That was a military plane, so a military capt had to listen to an order of the general who was on a plane if there had been any order given???????. Still there are no official information about it, and Amen. Melu