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JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 11:33 AM
I would prefer if the MODS leave this thread here as opposed to the Leaving the career section, but either way, hope everyone contributes.

So I can honestly say that I am actively pursuing leaving the airline industry for good, have been for a few months now. I can go on and on with the complaining or I can do something about it and take control of my life and not let some incompetent airline management control my life. ( I know this is not exclusive to just the airlines).

I see absolutely no future in this industry and thinking about the future sacrifices I will have to make to make over $100,000.00 and I don't know if it's the fact that I don't have it in me, or simply can't stomach the thought of

1) Eventually, who knows how many years upgrading to once again go back on reserve and have a poor QOL for a slight bump in pay

2) gain enough experience to get "lucky" enough to get hired at some on the brink of bankruptcy major who will pay me 40k the first year (even less at a few other places) to ONCE AGAIN be on the bottom of some list

3) How exciting will it be when you have put a few years into a major only to get furloughed, then what go fly an EMB-190 for 23/hr?

Anyway it used to make me sad that I had thoughts of leaving this industry, but now it makes me sad to picture what my life will be like 30hrs down the road from now.

This job has taken a surprising big toll on my personal relationships and I live in base and work for a "good regional" :(

Anywway, back in my SAABaroowski days I would post how I was in it for the long haul, however I can offically say I have had it.

Ok, I will stop my crying :)

Anyone else feel the same way?


whtever
04-13-2010, 12:16 PM
You are not alone my friend, your thoughts are shared with the majority of people in the industry I have spoekn to, mainline or not. It really is too bad that it has come to this, with really no light at the end of the tunnel. If you could look into the future and have something other than poor quality of life, low wages, waining work rules, impending furlough/mergers, and increased scrutiny to look forward to, I could see staying, however, this is not the case.

Good luck to you...

wmuflyboy
04-13-2010, 12:17 PM
Im still a 24 year old CFI that hasnt even experienced anything yet and Im planning to get out. Starting my MBA in September, CYA!!!


JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 12:26 PM
^ smart man, I would rather fly a Cub on the weekends then a ground stopped ERJ for dismal pay............, long duty days, contract violating management, slave to a broken seniority system :(

I feel like I work with, myself included with such bright, charismatic individuals who have so much wasted talent and are being beaten down on a daily basis by this industry, depressing.

avschulz
04-13-2010, 12:26 PM
I've been on the street for almost two years now, and have finally gotten tired of waiting, and working crap part time jobs in hoping that a recall might come any day. I'm going back to school to get my teaching certificate. Might not be the best idea since now it looks like teachers are getting laid off just as much as pilots these days.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 12:27 PM
^ Good luck. The thought of being home everynight is like a pipe dream, I can't imagine, must be great........

minimwage4
04-13-2010, 12:32 PM
Amen brother. I was just talking to a retired UA guy, you want to talk about crying?:eek: Very sad. The problem I think is not only what this profession has become but the fact that there seems to be no hope. It's been on a downward spiral for a long time, why would it stop now? And more importantly should you waste your life away waiting for the downward spiral to stop? I think not. Oh well.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 12:37 PM
^ thats exactly what I am afraid of, I don't want to look in the mirror at age 45 and try to rationalize that the pilot shortage is coming, what a joke, and even if it does, the jobs at the majors are really not that appealing to me anymore, the 4:00 am vans in some STD ridden hotel, Flight attendants who have no respect for anyone, the erosion of scope, etc.............just not going to end

Splanky
04-13-2010, 12:54 PM
I too am working my way out, part way. In this downturn my employer has started part time lines that would actually not be too bad. As long as they continue the part time lines I am thinking about sticking around. I am working on a side career that can also be done while on the road. Hopefully my pipe-dream pans out.

A lot of my coworkers are also looking for an out. The two guys I went through training with are applying to schools for a new career.

If the current horrible quality of life with the constant pressure to take pay cuts was only temporary, I would consider it a sacrifice for the short term. However, I too fear the current crop of managers will persist on this path and I am not willing to put up with it.

For everyone looking to get out, good luck with your new career choices.

schone
04-13-2010, 12:55 PM
Who is? I AM.

I am sick of 13hrs duty days flying 5 legs a day. Looking at what promises to be a grim future in the long run.

I used to do programming before i joined the airlines and can't see myself going back to that. I just wish someone could tell me what I should do and how to free myself from being a W-2 employee.


Just wish I could just do it and never feel regret no matter what happens in this industry.

makersmarc
04-13-2010, 12:57 PM
slave to a broken seniority system :(


that about says it all

ExperimentalAB
04-13-2010, 12:58 PM
Just flew my last trip...bittersweet, but for once I am excited about the future. Once I committed, I saw that there really were a whole world of options out there!

Buschpilot
04-13-2010, 12:59 PM
I'm done. 2.5 years ago I hired a career coach to figure out how to turn my ship in another direction. Best thing I've done in the past 8 years. It took some time, and the economy hasn't helped, but I'll be out at the end of the year with an MBA in hand and my evenings free.

8 years (and counting) in the right seat is no place to be if anyone plans on retiring some day. 220 days/year on the road is killer on a family, and 38k/yr is bull. It's no longer a career, and no way would I ever recommend a young person pursue this job.

waflyboy
04-13-2010, 01:00 PM
After about a year of looking for something else, I finally did. Saturday will be my last day "flying the line," and I'm very pleased. Although there's a lot of things I'm going to miss, my children growing up won't be one of them.

I think this career should be called a "timepit" (like a moneypit, except for time). When you invest a lot of time in a career path, you expect to see a return down the road. (i.e. better pay, better schedule, holidays off) Sure, it works like that for a few folks. But for many it doesn't, and they pour yet more time into the job, hoping for a better life in the future. And so it goes.

Once I started to see the possibilities in the "outside world," I was truly amazed at how effectively the desire to fly had impaired my priorities. Sadly, I know that none of the words in this thread will stop a new commercial pilot from filling my seat in the CRJ.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 01:03 PM
wow, I am glad I am not alone, excited for you guys that are getting out and looking forward to it as well

BoredwLife
04-13-2010, 01:15 PM
After a year without a job I managed to land a position within the Aviation field. Not great but at least I am a Manager and make more than I did at the airlines. I have networked and managed to make some connections for a new position down the road. It has better vacation, sick time, benefits, and pay than I could expect at a major after 20 years.

I still miss flying though. And looking ahead, that "missing of the job" seriously scares the crap out of me. I think I was one of the lucky ones. I was young and at a major when I was furloughed. I just don't know.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 01:27 PM
Yea I know would miss it, but to an extent, I miss certain things more, like having cash in the bank and being home every night

saabslime
04-13-2010, 01:30 PM
Worked at the regional level for six years. 5 years at a legacy then furloughed. Spent the last 8 of those 11 years on reserve. Getting furloughed was the best thing that ever happened to me as I don't know if I would have had the balls to pull the trigger to get out myself while still employed. It took me seven months to find a good job but I can't tell you how nice it is to have a "normal" life again and be able to make plans with friends, join softball leagues, look forward to the holidays, be with the family, etc. If I took a recall I'd make roughly twice what I make now but there is value that can't be measured in dollars in being able to do those things. At least for me. The funny thing is I spent my whole adult life chasing the airline career and after being out for a year and a half I can honestly say I don't miss it a bit and can't see that I ever will in the future either. I think happy lives are built by taking note of your values and priorities and structuring everything else around that. When you start to compromise those things for a job you get the bitter or dissappointed attitudes that seem so prevelant nowdays and in the end it just isn't worth it. Good luck to everyone and whatever you decide I hope it's what truly makes you happy. :)

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 01:34 PM
^ inspiring, thanks for your insight

BoredwLife
04-13-2010, 01:44 PM
Here is my worry. I didn't mind being gone. I enjoyed it. My girlfriend of 7 years didn't mind either. We had a hard time adjusting once I was furloughed. My fear is this, as I understand it, EVERYTHING changes once you have kids. And if we have a kid and I HATE being away flying I might have given up a great oppotunity.

I wish my Dad hadn't drilled into me that, "If you enjoy what you do, you will never work a day in your life." I never felt like flying was work. But everyday I wake up for this managment job I groan.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 01:48 PM
^ yea, Im just an F/O and I feel like every day is work, maybe its Newark, or the duties as F/O rep too, but always feels like work to me

BoredwLife
04-13-2010, 01:54 PM
Now I need a cigar to relax. You got me all worked up again. I manage to do this to myself about once a month. Hoping that I don't get recalled before I get a chance to try a new position.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 01:58 PM
you going to accept if/when the day comes?

HercDriver130
04-13-2010, 02:03 PM
I pulled the trigger so to speak in 1994.... was out for 13 years... for me... and ME I only speak... it was the worst thing I ever did. I am truly glad for those who move on and find what they are looking for. For me personally its not in a regular job.

It is certainly a personal decision made by each and every person. I would never judge someone's reasoning. Good luck to all.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 02:13 PM
leaving was the worst thing you ever did?.

HercDriver130
04-13-2010, 02:25 PM
For me yes. But that's just me. I totally understand reasons that people get out of the business. EVERYONE's situation is different and I respect that. For me personally getting out of flying just meant different manure in different pastures.... but let me reiterate... these are my feelings.... YMMV. Again, good luck to all.

pilot_man
04-13-2010, 02:26 PM
I have also thought about making a career change. Although since I dont have a degree, and i have a ton in school loans is making the jump hard. I have been furloughed as well as others and now the hard decision is do I stay in my current everyday job, find a new one or accept the recall (when and if that happens); and hope that the industry gets better.

MoonShot
04-13-2010, 02:30 PM
I'll say this for those ready to bail. The grass does get greener. I didn't think that going from the regionals to the majors would be that much different, but it has been. I'm still very happy with the job. That's not to say that I don't miss friends/family when I'm on the road (I do a lot), but last month I had 23 days at home for 76 hours pay. A somewhat rare exception, but there aren't many jobs that can offer that. The majors WILL BE hiring a lot in the next 5-15 years. Maybe pursue the aviation passion and get another job to supplement income and drop days at the airline so you are home more but still get to do what you like some of the time.

Sure, when I wake up I'm not tripping over myself to get to work, but I sure don't mind going to do something that I still love to do. YMMV. Good luck.

AKfreighter
04-13-2010, 02:31 PM
Commuting will make a guy quit, leaving a captain spot at a major, as evidenced by a guy I recently met, who now works at another major in management and wishes he could get back on the line. I'm always looking for something better, but only if I can work for myself. The thought of not getting to fly is less scary when the dollar signs on the other side are bigger.

Joey, what prompted the change from the SAAB name anyway?

odog1121
04-13-2010, 02:48 PM
In the past few years I seriously thought about a career change a few times for various reason (primarily money). In the end, 40K/yr isn't a lot, but I couldn't find anything else that would allow me to have an avg 15 days off (25 nights) a month (and credit 100hrs), I can pretty much drop all of it if I wanted to. I live in base, do day trips/two day trips so I'm home more than I want to be. Travel whenever I feel like it. Have time for the gym everyday. Happily married, when it's time for kids, I can either do the routine that I do now or I'll drop all my trips except maybe two two day trips a month, or take family leave, or bid part time. Life is good.

mmaviator
04-13-2010, 02:49 PM
I've been furloughed for a bit and had some offers from corp flying, charter, to a govt job. I doubt I'll get recalled however some offers haven't been let say finalized. I'll leave the airline for any of these offers.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 03:02 PM
The powers that be banned my old screename :(. I can hold very productive day trips (at least for this month), so I am going to drop as much as I can and venture out to really put my mind to seeing what else is out there. I ultimately would like to be my own boss. My wife makes good money and does have the option for working for her family business which is currently doing well also. (Don't want to work for the in laws though, lol). What scares me is my schedule is decent, the pay is as high as it can go for a regional F/O, our work rules are good and I still hate the thought of going to work, thats a scary thought. Honestly, money may not be everything but life sure as hell is no fun without it..........

Commuting will make a guy quit, leaving a captain spot at a major, as evidenced by a guy I recently met, who now works at another major in management and wishes he could get back on the line. I'm always looking for something better, but only if I can work for myself. The thought of not getting to fly is less scary when the dollar signs on the other side are bigger.

Joey, what prompted the change from the SAAB name anyway?

Paid2fly
04-13-2010, 03:03 PM
In the past few years I seriously thought about a career change a few times for various reason (primarily money). In the end, 40K/yr isn't a lot, but I couldn't find anything else that would allow me to have an avg 15 days off (25 nights) a month (and credit 100hrs), I can pretty much drop all of it if I wanted to. I live in base, do day trips/two day trips so I'm home more than I want to be. Travel whenever I feel like it. Have time for the gym everyday. Happily married, when it's time for kids, I can either do the routine that I do now or I'll drop all my trips except maybe two two day trips a month, or take family leave, or bid part time. Life is good.









Okay, and how does one pay the bills(especially when "its time for kids"), only working "two two day trips a month"???????:confused:

CANAM
04-13-2010, 03:10 PM
Everybody at Embry-Riddle, Purdue and UND - pay attention to what these guys are saying!! Read it again and again. Then, if you're still not understanding that this industry is broken, ask one of your profs to explain it to you. Make certain to post his/her response on youtube, so as to entertain the rest of us.

We all need to do an Airline Pilot Reality Tour to these schools. I'd love to hear what they're telling these poor kids. They fed me all the Kool-Aid I could drink...and that was during the boom days!

Then again, maybe some of you want to be 30 years old - spending time between your mom's place and a flea infested crash pad with 15 strangers - making $19,000/year. But that shortage you keep on hearing about might just be around the corner. Hang in there. You're only wasting your time, which we all know is unlimited.

BoredwLife
04-13-2010, 03:19 PM
I remember being pretty sick of it after I was at a Regional for a little over 2 years. I was lucky to make the jump to a major and I will agree that is was night and day difference. But we were still in the "dating" phase of our airline relationship. What happens when all those routes and over nights are no longer new and I am bored once again? I still wonder if I hand't been furloughed after 4 months if I would still be itching to get back in.

Joey,

I would bypass recall currently but I am the last guy on the list and Final Recall goes into effect after me. Not sure if bypassing would help me much.

Pielut
04-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Bailed a few years ago, did not want to keep going. It is not that bad, got a great job, (no cubicle) good pay, company car, cheap health ins, etc. It is totally worth it. And I actually do fly cubs on the weekend, it is pretty sweet! I will caution corporate america is just as much BS as a flying job, I just get to sleep in my own bed. Just don't get a sales job, sales bloooowwws.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 03:41 PM
I think I would enjoy sales :)

ToiletDuck
04-13-2010, 03:56 PM
I've been working on my own side business, aircraft appraisals/sales/buyers agent, because of this industry. However I also feel those that make it are those that stick with it. Give it a year then ask me again. For every person I meet that's glad they left I meet one that misses it. Who knows.

The most important thing to remember is we're all *****s at heart and for the right number I'd never touch a plane again :D

ATRCA
04-13-2010, 04:17 PM
After getting married and having kids I realized just how selfish a flying career really is. Many of my coworkers commute and are away from home at least 20 days a month. I am soooo lucky that my wife is very accommodating, and she has bent her life around mine. I'm a very junior Captain but I live in base and I'm home with my family at least six nights a week. We get to live in the Caribbean and I kiteboarded all day today while getting paid but never got a phone call from scheduling. The pay and benefits are not what they should be after 15 years in the business, and 10 at AE, but it's not bad. After all that bragging I STILL think about quiting nearly every day. The problem for me is the nonexistent amount of job security that comes along with this gig. We are all just a single small step away from losing it all via a failed medical, a momemtary lapse in judgement, crooked management, or just plain bad luck. My family deserves more than that. Although my aviation goal is to still get hired at a major and fly long haul for better money and more time off, my primary goal is to start a business to fall back on so that I can go to work knowing that I don't need it. And as soon as I finish paying off my lastest defunct private enterprise :rolleyes: I'll try it again...

I think that the most stressful part of being a professional aviator is having to depend on it. Take that out of the equation and it could be a real pleasure...if you are lucky.

rickair7777
04-13-2010, 04:21 PM
I started down this road before 9/11...given the current conditions (and the low likelihood of any improvement in the foreseeable future) I could NEVER have justified getting in to this career today.

I'm already here...it's easier to stay, since I can't recoup the training and lost opportunity costs anyway.

But even I have had second thoughts lately, I probably need to go do some active duty for a year or two and think about things.

If you are young and involved in an aviation-only education training program, you REALLY need to re-evaluate what you are doing with your life. Whatever propaganda is being spewed by those who want to take your money(aviation schools and professors), the reality is very, very gloomy. If things ever do turn around it will take decades...if you are very young and willing to take a chance that you might be able to have a good life in 25-30 years, go for it. Things are only going to get better when airline demand goes up while pilot supply goes down. There are many, many obstacles to long-term domestic airline growth (fuel, greenism, economy, changing business practices, etc)

Will there be jobs? Yes. Will they be jobs that you really want? No, not IMO. The airline managers (with the help of alpa) have effectively won the labor battle as far as I can tell.

Future airline pilot labor will likely be employed by multiple subcontractors, all of which will bid against each other for work. Payscales will be depressed drastically, and the relative job security which once existed for senior pilots will be no longer. The only way to guarantee employment will be to take a pay cut...how many times do you want to do that over the course of your career?

wheresmyplane
04-13-2010, 04:24 PM
Got furloughed and that kind of made the decision for me. I'm actually back to what I was doing before I started flying and you know what? I can actually afford to do stuff and I'm home every night. I've even had steak! The new company gave me a vehicle, phone, computer, and I have a great deal of freedom. It's the closest thing to being my own boss. I DO miss flying. I was on a roof in Queens yesterday and could watch planes landing at LGA - that made me miss it a lot. You don't have to be at an airline to fly, though. You can always work a day job and go fly for Rich on the weekends. I remember you saying you missed that kind of flying anyway.

TonyWilliams
04-13-2010, 04:55 PM
Just flew my last trip...bittersweet, but for once I am excited about the future. Once I committed, I saw that there really were a whole world of options out there!

Excellent choice.

rdneckpilot
04-13-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm out also. Hopefully this fall. Will still be flying just not with the airlines.

JoeyMeatballs
04-13-2010, 05:10 PM
good discussion going on here, makes me not feel so guilty for wanting to get the hell out despite what i went through to get here

TonyWilliams
04-13-2010, 05:11 PM
Everybody at Embry-Riddle, Purdue and UND - pay attention to what these guys are saying!! Read it again and again..... that shortage you keep on hearing about might just be around the corner. Hang in there. You're only wasting your time, which we all know is unlimited.


That's what they'll hear.... Woo Hoo !!!! Guys are VOLUNTARILY leaving to make room for us !!!!!

Blueskies21
04-13-2010, 05:24 PM
I am considering my ways out, things that may be aviation related or share skill sets.
I tell as many people as I can if you want to keep loving aviation, do it as a hobby. It rapidly becomes a J - O - B. I think pilots are our own worst enemies with the bragging that goes on. "I have 15 days off" well that's great but the other 15 days you're completely gone. Pilots may be gone for 300 hours a month and get paid for 75-100, doesn't sound as good now does it? Well sure but they're not working that whole time, lots of that is layover... OK sure, that's true. Let's go ask the average cubicle worker whether they're interested in only working 75 hours a month, but wait, you still have to be at the office 300 hours a month. How many people do you think are going to be interested in that deal?
"I get to fly whereever I want" Sure, standby. So with the reduction in capacity you may not get on, and you may have to go though 3 airports to get where you want to go, and you can't probably go to popular places during popular times... ever tried to nonrev somewhere warm during spring break??
How often do you really use your flight benefits that aren't somehow getting you to or from work or maybe back home where you had to leave to live in base?
Wouldn't it be just as nice to be able to afford regular tickets for your regularly scheduled vacation?
All that before you start talking about the setbacks within a career of furloughs, loss of medicals, getting canned for something that makes the press, and lets not even discuss the possibility of dying and having all your last actions scrutinized about how aweful a pilot you were.
I started before 9/11, obviously that was a game changer.
Guys that say "Well yea, I'm suffering now but I'm going to get to work 5 days a month for 300k a year" I just want to SHAKE those guys hard. It's OVER, that doesn't exist ANYMORE! And even if you want to say yea, but fedex etc etc that's after what? 5-10 years in industry? and then for the huge paycheck is... 10 years at fedex? There's also the whole, you have no idea what will the the IT airline in 20 years, hope you're willing to bet your career on it. 10 years ago guys wanted to be at UNITED, ask those same guys now if they want be at united? 15 years ago, NOBODY wanted to be at FEDEX, how about now? It's darn hard to be able to tell what will be an awesome airline over the course of a career.

Rant off. We're all a bunch of dream chasing idiots.

alwaysflying
04-13-2010, 05:48 PM
From someone who has been furloughed from 2 majors since 9/11.

I am currently out of the industry, working in a cubicle. I have some freedom. I meet clients in the field, I control my appointments and after two years of employment I can work from home. I have the potential to make six figures and I am home everynight. Sounds really great. (By the way this is my third career. My first career was a cubicle and I was getting promoted every two years or so.)

I know alot of furloughees who went down the path of working in a cubicle thinking it was going to be great.

I can tell you from experience, working in an office is a tough environment. Can be alot more stressful than flying aircraft. I was told when I got hired at my current job, there was very little stress, yeah right. Me, along with others that got hired at the same time, think they lied to us. Can I handle the stress yeah, but its get old after awhile.

Let me tell you have a backup plan and degree if you get furloughed. I did and was lucky in 2008 to get a very secure government job. Do I miss not having management breath down my neck, you bet. My have to account to somebody regularly for my work. I have meetings to attend, sometimes three in a week, which get boring. I work 8am to 4:30 pm. Bad thing, sometimes I have to bring the work home on the weekends to get it done. Deadlines can not be missed.

In the corporate work place, you sometimes don't get to leave the job behind. Sometimes you do. But as you get promoted, its gets even harder to leave behind.

In a flying job, you leave the aircraft go home or to the hotel and you don't have to worry unless scheduling calls. Only deadline is getting the flight out on time and making your commute flight home.

I am not saying the corporate world is bad, just real different. Many of my fellow furloughees thought it was wonderful, in the beginning, to have a secure job and be home everynight. A year or two later, they hate life and some are back flying already.

I don't mean to preach, just give the opposite picture. Would I return to flying if given the chance, depends on the industry and if I get recalled to the major I was furloughed from in 2009. I am grateful everyday I have this job to gain a wealth of knowledge that I can use to start a business if I so chose. But don't think the corporate 9 to 5 and home everynight is everything.

Do what you love and enjoy life. Its to short. Many people in the corporate world hate what they do for a living, but they need the money and have families.

odog1121
04-13-2010, 06:08 PM
Okay, and how does one pay the bills(especially when "its time for kids"), only working "two two day trips a month"???????:confused:

Day care cost more than what I make. Wife makes decent money. This job have the flexibility for me to be a house husband wihout losing career progression (seniority wise). works for me

Blueskies21
04-13-2010, 06:38 PM
Day care cost more than what I make. Wife makes decent money. This job have the flexibility for me to be a house husband wihout losing career progression (seniority wise). works for me
Take note, this is one of the few ways to make this career work now. Marry a woman that will make enough money for your hobby to continue indefinately. Sad but true, the guys who's wives make money have waaaay more flexiblity. Very much the same idea as someone else mentioned about starting a side business, flying is great if you don't have to rely on it for income.

fatmike69
04-13-2010, 06:53 PM
Will add my 2 cents.... was fortunate enough to be hired at the beginning of a boom. Flew right seat for a couple years (by choice), and upgraded 2 years ago. Bid in the top third on my equipment, usually fly 3 or 4 4-day trips a month (12-14 days off/month), and do not commute (at least by air, a little bit of a drive). Gross a little over 60k /yr, wife also works full time. Also use the travel benefits alot, have flown first class to many international destinations, something I would have never been able to do otherwise. So, all things considered, I guess I'm happy where I am, not actively looking to leave.

I realize I probably am the minority here. I've been lucky with my progression so far, and would definitely by singing a different tune if I were six years in the right seat commuting across the country. My current position has little to do with my own efforts, but rather luck of the draw, or right place at the right time. However, with all the negativity on these boards, I guess I just wanted to offer a different perspective. So, I guess I will continue to enjoy what I can, while the industry allows me to.

AKfreighter
04-13-2010, 06:57 PM
good discussion going on here, makes me not feel so guilty for wanting to get the hell out despite what i went through to get here

I was always a big fan of SAABorowski's posts! Here's hoping everyone looking elsewhere finds what they want, and everyone thinking about moving on can weigh the pros and cons clearly.

Boomer
04-13-2010, 07:08 PM
I heard ng4 is trying to get out at Comair, but the folks in ATL/MSP say he has to stay for a second term. Maybe in October?

GlobeTreker
04-13-2010, 07:26 PM
Not to be a prick, but you are in the minority in the whole industry. For every guy in your position there are 10 more on short call reserve with 10 days off hating life. Aviation is a soul sucking wench.

Also not to be a prick but 60k as a captain? I am going to make around 55k as an FO and for the investment of time and money to get to this point in my career I consider it total crap. Even if i were making 100k it ain't what it used to be.

In reference to the many responses in threads like these about cubicles. There are more choices in life than an airplane seat or a cubicle. There is a crazy thing called Entrepreneurship. It is an amazing thing where you go and find a need of society and you use your knowledge and skills to fill that need. Then people pay you for it. This doesn't always involve cubicles. I built and ran my own business for 4 years and I never once sat in a cubicle. Apparently I am not as smart as I thought I was because I sold my business in August of 2001 to pursue aviation. Now I just want to get back to where I was in July of 2001.


Will add my 2 cents.... was fortunate enough to be hired at the beginning of a boom. Flew right seat for a couple years (by choice), and upgraded 2 years ago. Bid in the top third on my equipment, usually fly 3 or 4 4-day trips a month (12-14 days off/month), and do not commute (at least by air, a little bit of a drive). Gross a little over 60k /yr, wife also works full time. Also use the travel benefits alot, have flown first class to many international destinations, something I would have never been able to do otherwise. So, all things considered, I guess I'm happy where I am, not actively looking to leave.

I realize I probably am the minority here. I've been lucky with my progression so far, and would definitely by singing a different tune if I were six years in the right seat commuting across the country. My current position has little to do with my own efforts, but rather luck of the draw, or right place at the right time. However, with all the negativity on these boards, I guess I just wanted to offer a different perspective. So, I guess I will continue to enjoy what I can, while the industry allows me to.

jsled
04-13-2010, 07:35 PM
It all depends on your situation, but I will ride her into the ground!! Been in the airline biz since '91 and it has been an e-ticket roller coaster ride. Been on top of the world and in the gutter - 25 new hires per week and 2000+ furloughs. Best pay - worst pay....crazy shizit. But I am not even close to walking away...I know, I am not stuck in a regional right seat or furloughed...but for me, flying jets is where its at and I would go to China to do it if I had to. C-mon fellas, December 2012 is not far away. Thats when all the gummers start to retire. Then the majors will be hiring like crazy just to keep the jets flying.

GlobeTreker
04-13-2010, 07:45 PM
It all depends on your situation, but I will ride her into the ground!! Been in the airline biz since '91 and it has been an e-ticket roller coaster ride. Been on top of the world and in the gutter - 25 new hires per week and 2000+ furloughs. Best pay - worst pay....crazy shizit. But I am not even close to walking away...I know, I am not stuck in a regional right seat or furloughed...but for me, flying jets is where its at and I would go to China to do it if I had to. C-mon fellas, December 2012 is not far away. Thats when all the gummers start to retire. Then the majors will be hiring like crazy just to keep the jets flying.

A few years ago the Vietnam era pilots were going to retire and then there would be a huge wave of hiring. It is always some line of BS AOPA, Riddle and UND are shoveling out to sell ads and fill flight school seats. The only wave of hiring that has taken place in the last 10 years was to fill the seats of low paying RJ jobs due to mainline pilots giving away all of their flying.

There is more to life than flying. Family and friends should be more important than a logbook full of Jet time. I feel sorry for people that have nothing else in their lives other than their job. For most of us not at the top of the seniority lists, being an airline pilot is an all consuming job.

jsled
04-13-2010, 08:07 PM
A few years ago the Vietnam era pilots were going to retire and then there would be a huge wave of hiring. It is always some line of BS AOPA, Riddle and UND are shoveling out to sell ads and fill flight school seats. The only wave of hiring that has taken place in the last 10 years was to fill the seats of low paying RJ jobs due to mainline pilots giving away all of their flying.

There is more to life than flying. Family and friends should be more important than a logbook full of Jet time. I feel sorry for people that have nothing else in their lives other than their job. For most of us not at the top of the seniority lists, being an airline pilot is an all consuming job.

I moved up 3600 numbers in 12 years here at UAL. And that kind of movement will continue when mandatory retirements resume. That is a statistical fact, not some pipe dream Riddle spews. Just over 20% of the pilots will be forced to retire here between 2013 and 2017 and the numbers are similar at other majors.

As for family and friends, I have enjoyed flying my family for FREE (incentive passes) or for a few bucks several times a year to many memorable vacations or catching a jumpseat to another city to watch a ballgame with buds. This job makes that possible, at least for me.

Mach X
04-13-2010, 08:21 PM
A few years ago the Vietnam era pilots were going to retire and then there would be a huge wave of hiring. It is always some line of BS AOPA, Riddle and UND are shoveling out to sell ads and fill flight school seats. The only wave of hiring that has taken place in the last 10 years was to fill the seats of low paying RJ jobs due to mainline pilots giving away all of their flying.

There is more to life than flying. Family and friends should be more important than a logbook full of Jet time. I feel sorry for people that have nothing else in their lives other than their job. For most of us not at the top of the seniority lists, being an airline pilot is an all consuming job.

A few years ago the retirement age was 60 years old. Now it is 65. Nothing is guaranteed, but something will have to give.

And I can definitely say UND never promised me anything, can't speak for the other organizations.

iPilot
04-13-2010, 10:12 PM
Looks like someone's got a case of the Mondays

NightIP
04-14-2010, 02:57 AM
^ Nice job. Get a photobucket account for forum pic trolling, haha.

Anyway, there's more to this career than flying RJs around. I was furloughed from XJT in 2008, and frankly, it's been the best thing that's happened to me. I went off to Cape Air and fly the completely humble and non-glamarous C402. However, it pays the bills well enough and I'm home every night. I can honestly say that I'm much happier driving around my martini shaker 402 than I was flying an RJ. That's just me, though. This won't be a career stop for me, but after a year and a half of banging around through the weather in the northeast (with a little stint in the Caribbean), I still enjoy going to work. Couldn't say the same about being home long enough to do my laundry before turning around and doing it again.

Plenty of flying opportunities out there besides RJs. Just do what makes you happy.

Tony Nelson
04-14-2010, 04:25 AM
I moved up 3600 numbers in 12 years here at UAL. And that kind of movement will continue when mandatory retirements resume. That is a statistical fact, not some pipe dream Riddle spews. Just over 20% of the pilots will be forced to retire here between 2013 and 2017 and the numbers are similar at other majors.

As for family and friends, I have enjoyed flying my family for FREE (incentive passes) or for a few bucks several times a year to many memorable vacations or catching a jumpseat to another city to watch a ballgame with buds. This job makes that possible, at least for me.

That should just about get all the furloughees back so there will be no new hiring until 2017.

BoilerUP
04-14-2010, 04:44 AM
We all need to do an Airline Pilot Reality Tour to these schools.

I've been saying that since Capt. Frank Mayne (ALPA Education Chair) retired from Delta and ALPA's presence at aviation universities (at least at Purdue) pretty much dried up.

OTOH, while I think the sometimes harsh *reality* of a regional airline job needs to be driven home...I don't think it all needs to be doom and gloom, because its not.

My colleague and I try to get to Purdue at least once a year to chat with seniors about careers in business aviation...because despite having the two King Airs and Beechjet (for now, anyway) bizav careers are sorely overlooked.

I worked for AWAC from very early 2006 through Thanksgiving 2007, and while I enjoyed the company and the crews, I had to leap on a job in a location my wife and I wanted to live in...especially with the sizable raise it came with. Less than 4 months after being hired I was made Chief Pilot, helped hire a new pilot, oversaw the acquisition of a brand-new jet and have been flying said airplane for over a year now. I work for a small company with great management and a pilot-friendly owner, work an average of 15 days/mo (fly/RON/office), have a company credit card for all my expenses while working and, in the biggest change from 121, am constantly reminded how I'm an asset to the company...not a liability.

I'm also just 26 years old.

I don't say that to brag about being "good" - believe me folks here who personally know me will vouch to that - I was just lucky with good timing, and happened to be networked enough to help me get the job at AWAC and my current position.

All that said...I could hang it up tomorrow and while I'd miss it for a little while, it wouldn't be the end of my world.

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 04:56 AM
What also scare me is if there ever is truly a small shortage of pilots, whats coming around the corner???????? cabotage, its kind of the elephant in the room, but it is a real concern. I guarantee that would really start to shine its ugly head if the US for some odd reason was short on pilots. Open skies and Intl' codesharing anyone?

What really bothers me is seeing some guys move on to the majors with such little time at the regional, or flying with a Captain who really has no business in the left seat. Its not envy per se, its knowing that no matter how safe I am, or how well I know the systems, or how well I can circle to 29 in newark when its gusting to 50, it does not mean a ******* thing, only your seniority number. It is so difficult to be motivated when I know upgrade is years away (if not farther away), I have 0 control of my destiny as an airline pilot. If I was a talentless, had no personality, and was mediocre at best at flying, I wouldn't mind the airlines, however I don't think thats the case.

It really kills me to see people I grew up with buying houses, going on vacation, raising kids, all the while I am going back and forth with payroll , crew scheduling, the chief pilots etc., it really has just pushed me away

LeftWing
04-14-2010, 05:03 AM
What really bothers me is seeing some guys move on to the majors with such little time at the regional, ............

I'm at a major with 0 time at a regional. Why does that bother you?

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 05:11 AM
^

I was not referring to military pilots. I should have clarified. I would see some guys get hired spend 6 months in an RJ (their first "real job") then off to CAL, or guys that got hired at the perfect time, upgarde in less then 2 years then off to a major. I am happy for them, glad it worked out the way it did, however it is sometimes a hard pill to swallow knowing your timing/luck is not going to work out that way, and in the industry, timing & luck is what gets you places more then personality and skill (IMO)

LeftWing
04-14-2010, 05:13 AM
.........................................

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 05:14 AM
ok, good on you then ;)

LeftWing
04-14-2010, 05:17 AM
ok, good on you then ;)

THANKS!:)





..

Dan64456
04-14-2010, 06:06 AM
Wow, depressing thread.

Be warned the cubicle isn't any better. We face layoff's, corporate BS, politics, abuse from the powers that be, and all of that on a 5 day a week basis, every week. Yesterday I worked 14.5 hours and my only meal was breakfast. When I finally got out, I had the pleasure of getting to sit in a train station for 55 minutes before the train even arrived, then I had to sit on the train itself for another 35-40 minutes. This happens 1 or 2 times per week. And where am I now not more than 10 hours later? In my cubicle making myself even more depressed by reading this thread. Careful what you choose... especially if you are already (relatively) far along into the career. Something will have to give within the next year or 2... these are unprecedented times. I might even be in the unemployment line standing right next to you.

And being home every night isn't worth anything if you are ****ed off and tired. Especially when you only get 3 - 4 hours to begin with before you gotta sleep. Being a pilot is NOT a selfish job. You chose to do a job you enjoyed, and that should never be viewed as selfish. You thought it would make you happy, and how can anyone in your family or circle of friends be happy if you aren't happy yourself? I see myself becoming as miserable and unpleasant as my father more and more every day, and that's why I either won't have kids (or a wife), or will change careers before even thinking about those things.

johnso29
04-14-2010, 06:25 AM
The powers that be banned my old screename :(. I can hold very productive day trips (at least for this month), so I am going to drop as much as I can and venture out to really put my mind to seeing what else is out there. I ultimately would like to be my own boss. My wife makes good money and does have the option for working for her family business which is currently doing well also. (Don't want to work for the in laws though, lol). What scares me is my schedule is decent, the pay is as high as it can go for a regional F/O, our work rules are good and I still hate the thought of going to work, thats a scary thought. Honestly, money may not be everything but life sure as hell is no fun without it..........


I honestly think the FO Rep thing is dragging you down. I think it's awesome that you donate your time as an FO Rep, but I think the reason you dread going to work is because you've lost the best part of being an airline pilot.....leaving the job behind as you walk off the jetway. Every FO's problems in EWR becomes your problems, and you have to deal with them all hours of the day, all days of the week. I also know that you're dealing with a whole lot of complaning about the most recent LOA, but I thought it was BS that guys would bid RFL then pick up open time to max out credit. Shady with guys on furlough, IMO.

My recommendation, finish out your FO Rep term and be done with it. I think this will increase your QOL alone. While I know that you have always wanted to work for CAL, keep in mind DAL also has a NYC base and even while on reserve you can make EWR your primary base. NYC is the junior base, and it's the fastest way to a WB if you want to do that. It does get better, and during the last hiring spree by DAL more then one RJ FO with 0 PIC turbine was hired.

Just my 2 cents, although they may be worth less to you.:p

Trip7
04-14-2010, 06:38 AM
The powers that be banned my old screename :(. I can hold very productive day trips (at least for this month), so I am going to drop as much as I can and venture out to really put my mind to seeing what else is out there. I ultimately would like to be my own boss. My wife makes good money and does have the option for working for her family business which is currently doing well also. (Don't want to work for the in laws though, lol). What scares me is my schedule is decent, the pay is as high as it can go for a regional F/O, our work rules are good and I still hate the thought of going to work, thats a scary thought. Honestly, money may not be everything but life sure as hell is no fun without it..........

I don't understand...You're making around 50k, your wife is making good money, you're flying daytrips, but you unhappy? You also state you see your friends you grew up with buying houses and going on vacation. I'm assuming you and your wife make over 100k combined. How can you not buy a house and go on vacation?

I know an XJET FO who creates a mini-vacation for himself every month by being creative with dropping and picking up trips. This guy is in some foreign country having a blast every month. There are very few jobs in the world that you can do that.

Trip7
04-14-2010, 06:44 AM
Not to be a prick, but you are in the minority in the whole industry. For every guy in your position there are 10 more on short call reserve with 10 days off hating life. Aviation is a soul sucking wench.

Also not to be a prick but 60k as a captain? I am going to make around 55k as an FO and for the investment of time and money to get to this point in my career I consider it total crap. Even if i were making 100k it ain't what it used to be.

In reference to the many responses in threads like these about cubicles. There are more choices in life than an airplane seat or a cubicle. There is a crazy thing called Entrepreneurship. It is an amazing thing where you go and find a need of society and you use your knowledge and skills to fill that need. Then people pay you for it. This doesn't always involve cubicles. I built and ran my own business for 4 years and I never once sat in a cubicle. Apparently I am not as smart as I thought I was because I sold my business in August of 2001 to pursue aviation. Now I just want to get back to where I was in July of 2001.

I commute to shortcall reserve in IAD and I am not hating life. Things could be better but it could also be ALOT worse. Out of all the jobs I've had in my life this is the easiest, most fun, and most pleasant. And what I love about this job relates to something you pointed out. It is very possible to venture into entrepreneurship while holding this job.

BoilerUP
04-14-2010, 06:45 AM
I commute to shortcall reserve in IAD and I am not hating life.

You're one of the few in the history of the world who evidently doesn't hate their life when commuting to reserve...

johnso29
04-14-2010, 06:49 AM
You're one of the few in the history of the world who evidently doesn't hate their life when commuting to reserve...

I think it depends on who you work for, and where your commute is to. I commute from the Midwest to Detroit, and it's really not bad. I commuted to Newark on reserve for 10 months, and it wasn't peachy but I survived.

Blaine01
04-14-2010, 06:52 AM
SAAB I am with you you as a fellow XJTer. Lets get one thing straight if you hang up your wings it does not doom you to some cubicle from 9-5. There are many jobs out there that range from the mundane (accounting) to the fun (fire jumper) I started a bulk tank truck brokering firm and by august I plan to go full time with it. I love the job and I can assure you I dont spend one waking moment in a cublicle but every night in my own bed. If you have any question feel free to PM me. You seem like a self motivated and hard working individual I would love to help you if I can.

Zapata
04-14-2010, 06:55 AM
I left the industry in the 90's and regretted it as 9 to 5 is a crappy lifestyle for me. I was fortunate to get back in the groove at the right time and I am content in my current position. Yeah, I know, it could go at anytime. However, that is true with any endeavor. Sure, the industry is changing.....what industry is not?

To fly my Champ on weekends is [email protected] fun, but it isn't enough for me. I not only love flying, but love flying as a profession.

I don't think that prospective flight students should be discouraged as some on this thread suggested. I certainly believe in full disclosure, but if they have all of the info and still want to do it, it is time to encourage. It all boils down to individual needs and attitude. There are challenges in any field that's worth doing.

TurboDog
04-14-2010, 06:57 AM
I left the my regional last year after 5 years of sitting in the right seat. To start off I will say that my decision to leave had less to do with the fact that I was still an FO and more to do with trying to better myself as a person. Keep in mind that everyone is different and this is just my account of what I have been through.

I've been in and around aviation my entire life. My Father is a Naval Aviator, I would spend the weekend airborne with my best friend and his dad in a C-180J going to a fish fry or an airshow and I have worked in the industry since a week after high school. I threw bags for Delta for a year and then went down to Sanford to get my ratings and you know where it goes from there.

I was never chasing the $200,000 paycheck, but more so hoping to do something fun for a living that would allow me plenty of time off to enjoy other things. We all know that isn't very common with a 9-5 job.

After 4 years I found myself around 50 FO's from the top of the seniority list for my piece of equipment, flying 1 and 2 day trips with weekends off and living in base. Can't beat that! I was really enjoying things. Then in one month I went from that to flying 4 and 5 day trips with 11 days off per month and most definitely lost the weekends off. I was getting junior manned left and right(sometimes it was a legal assignment and sometimes not.) When the assignments were not legal I would refuse them and turn around and fight them. I won each time, but it got so old arguing with management just to get them to follow the rules. So after 5 years, the schedule just wasn't there anymore.

My last year at the airline I moved over from the CRJ50 to the 70/90 fleet. I was pretty excited about this move. Nicer ride, the A/C actually worked and the seats actually had padding in them. What more could I ask for? For the most part the Captains I flew with were really cool. Mostly older guys, but they had some great stories and experience to back them up. Then all of a sudden it was like a light switch flipped. All of these senior guys that really didn't pay much attention to what was going on with the company started to get involved. After talking countless hours with most of these guys it became apparent that while their quality of life was good, they didn't really care what was going on with the company. They just collected their checks as anyone would do. However, when their schedules began to suck like the rest of ours, they started to voice their opinions more and more. This is when I really realized that these guys really had no clue of what was going on. And we know how contract negotiations go. It's usually the most senior guys negotiating and they are usually only looking out for themselves. In a sense it was like letting someone who hasn't flown in 12 years, come back and fly the line after a check-ride or two.

I give mad props to those of you who commute! Our airline was being picked apart and as a result I was going to have to commute. Making 40K a year after 5 years and having to commute to make it happen was just not worth it to me. I was already burnt out from the constant he said/she said from the Union and Management and I wasn't about to give them yet another tool to mess with me (the commute.)

In a nutshell, the airline lifestyle where it is at today changed who I was. Who knows, maybe it would have been different if I was one of the lucky ones to be in the right place at the right time. I think I hit it pretty much exactly at the wrong time. I was a flight instructor when 9/11 happened and we know what that did. Right after I was hired at OH, the pilot group agreed to a pay freeze for a year. Then Delta took OH into Bankruptcy. It was one punch right after another. Finally at year 4 when I switched equipment I actually say a little bit of a raise.

I left the airline last year and I have had the worst of luck as far as jobs go. I have been through 3 jobs since leaving last summer. I don't have a degree yet, so that has been really tough trying to find decent work with the economy where it was. I did the unemployment thing. I was wrongfully fired from the 1st job and the company told the state that I quit so I wasn't able to get unemployment again. I found an attorney that was familiar with this and we fought the company. I won and as a result went back on unemployment. In the end, the rat race isn't easy. However, this past year has been one of the most humbling experiences for me to date. Until this past year I had never paid a late bill in my life. I never relied on family to bail me out when I couldn't make ends meet. But through all of the pain and misfortune, somehow I am still a happier person than I was in my airline career. Friends and family all noticed a difference in my attitude.

It just killed me to think that I was that selfish that I put my friends and family through that, all because I had that aviator poison in my blood.

ashcroft
04-14-2010, 06:57 AM
Rep thing or not I know how you feel joey. I'm looking everyday to find something else to do. I had a chance last year to see what it was like to be home every night and now that I"m doing 4 days and even worse now commuting I hate this job. I did the math on in and based at home driving 20 minutes to work with average TAFB 85-90 hours for a 22 hour credit with 12-14 days off a month it's not worth it. I'm basically at work for 4 hours for every hour I get paid. It figures up to almost 4400 hours a year away from home. Do the math: There's on average 4.334 weeks in each month, so figure you get 13 days off so if you work 4 days for the rest of the time with an average TAFB of 87 hours with 22-24 hour credits you're doing at least 4 trips a month thats 348 hours a month away from home or 4178 hours a year at work. Not figuring in drive time to and from the airport or a commute if you do (as I do now and no not by choice). I made around 72k last year as a captain. After taxes, union dues (thats a rip off), medical, and the nickel and dime charges that we pay I brought home 51k or so last year. It comes out to $17 an hour before taxes and $12 an hour after. AWESOME YEA ME. My wife drives 25 min to work each way works 7am - 4pm (only because she likes to get off before traffic and could show at 8 or 9 if she wanted to), works 8 hours + 1 hour for lunch and makes what I do. She's at work for 45 hours a week, gets paid overtime is she works more than 40 hours, gets paid a premium for working weekends if she chooses to and is home at night. Even with her lunch and drive time figured in she only spends 2600 hours a year at work, at lunch at work, or driving to work. TOTAL. Now that I figure in that I"m commuting to work I'm gone even more, figure in the extra cost of crashpad and eating out more I make even less. Can't get settled because every time I do this company changes something. I figure with all the extra cost of this job I spend about 700 a month on crashpad, food and things. So if I made a take home of 51k last year subtract about 8k from that this year. Most of which I can't deduct. So yeah me captain at a regional, 7th year pay and I make about $10 an hour. I could flip burgers for 80 hours a week and make what I make now. Yes boys and girls I could work 16 hours a day 5 days a week be home at nights and still make what an airline pilot makes.

RANT OVER and yes I'm trying to get out btw :mad:

GlobeTreker
04-14-2010, 07:04 AM
[quote=Dan64456;795760]Wow, depressing thread.

Be warned the cubicle isn't any better.

Yep. You nailed it. There are only two choices in life. An airplane seat or a cubicle. That is all.:rolleyes:

I commute to shortcall reserve in IAD and I am not hating life. Things could be better but it could also be ALOT worse. Out of all the jobs I've had in my life this is the easiest, most fun, and most pleasant. And what I love about this job relates to something you pointed out. It is very possible to venture into entrepreneurship while holding this job.

Some people are born with more ambition in life than others. Reminds me of something. YouTube - MADtv - Lowered Expectations: Susan Whitfield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHq12lIYJME)

johnso29
04-14-2010, 07:12 AM
ome people are born with more ambition in life than others. Reminds me of something. YouTube - MADtv - Lowered Expectations: Susan Whitfield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHq12lIYJME)


Lowered expectations? Really? Perhaps some just expect a little too much? There are tons of rich people that are just plain miserable.

poor pilot
04-14-2010, 07:20 AM
Sabb I am so with you. I hate this industry with a passion. Sitting in hotels is a waste of a good life. As you know I took some time off and truley enjoyed being home everyday at 6 weekends off but I did mis flying airplanes a little but not by much. I have been putting alot of thought into school anything is better than this sh#%. Pilot shortage, not going to happen, Massive hiring, maybe but it might not be me, loose the medical, could happen to anyone at any age. Truley bad day in the sim, could happen to anyone. Way to many variables for me as soon as something better comes along I am out.

Seems to me alot of your negative feelings came about soon after you tied the knot. I know the feeling it just gets worse when you have a kid. Then you feel like a dirtbag when you turn your lady into a single mom for four days. Then its gets worse when you get back a you miss thoose little milstones. I'm pretty sure it will get even worse when my kid starts talking and says "I hate when your gone dad" that might be a sick day.

I got alot more the cry about but i tired of typing.

GlobeTreker
04-14-2010, 07:23 AM
Lowered expectations? Really? Perhaps some just expect a little too much? There are tons of rich people that are just plain miserable.

This is a lazy mans industry. You can be a marginal to sucky pilot but as long as you can pass a PC once in a while you get to keep your job. No amount of studying, preparation or motivation will improve your position in the airlines. Seniority is all that matters.

I suppose if I had come straight out of college into an RJ, upgraded in 18 months and left for a legacy within 2 or 3 yrs of my career I might have a little different opinion. Even if I were one of those people you still have no real control over your career. It's all about the seniority and playing the waiting game.

samuraiguytn
04-14-2010, 07:42 AM
What a bunch of whiners. Im on furlough and can't wait to get back in. Even on reserve I spent more time at home with my wife. ANd I'm a commuter. Sure the days are long and the pay is low, But I made more flying then I have ever made anywhere else. I know that is sad, but when your young trying to get some where in life the road is gonna be hard. I bet more then half of you had your parents pay your way or your daddy was a capatain at a Major airline. When you gonna learn that you can have a great living off of 60 grand a year. Making 6 figures sure would be nice, But I don't have to have that much money to be able to provide for my wife and daughter and stilll be able to do what I want. Get over your selves. Better yet, go ahead and leave the industry now, so that people like me, can go back to doing what feels right.

FlyHigh88
04-14-2010, 08:14 AM
What a bunch of whiners. Im on furlough and can't wait to get back in. Even on reserve I spent more time at home with my wife. ANd I'm a commuter. Sure the days are long and the pay is low, But I made more flying then I have ever made anywhere else. I know that is sad, but when your young trying to get some where in life the road is gonna be hard. I bet more then half of you had your parents pay your way or your daddy was a capatain at a Major airline. When you gonna learn that you can have a great living off of 60 grand a year. Making 6 figures sure would be nice, But I don't have to have that much money to be able to provide for my wife and daughter and stilll be able to do what I want. Get over your selves. Better yet, go ahead and leave the industry now, so that people like me, can go back to doing what feels right.

There are probably many on these forums that wanted to say what you have said. Thanks for taking the positive side for once.

KiloAlpha
04-14-2010, 08:14 AM
60K?? You could make $70k+ driving a delivery van (not truck or semi) for FedEx or UPS. Way to set the bar high for yourself. Some accept mediocrity, others strive to be better.

I expect six figures for working 70-80 hour (TAFB) weeks.

Farva
04-14-2010, 08:21 AM
I am leaving at the end of this summer. Been in for a few years as a reserve CRJ FO and I can not take the low pay and craptacular benefits. I am going into law enforcement and be able to spend more time with my kids and have a much more stable job.

Dan64456
04-14-2010, 08:41 AM
60K?? You could make $70k+ driving a delivery van (not truck or semi) for FedEx or UPS. Way to set the bar high for yourself. Some accept mediocrity, others strive to be better.

I expect six figures for working 70-80 hour (TAFB) weeks.

4 years of college (in my last year), 5+ years of HARD experience in IT (Lots of 24+ hour work days, late nights, early mornings, etc, etc), and I still make less than 46 grand, and I am in the Northeast. My friend drives for UPS and is lucky to make 17 - 18 bux an hour. He drives the big trucks too, so I don't know where those numbers are coming from. The entire country sucks unless you are born into money these days... Hopefully it changes soon, I still see myself flying professionally one day...

Utah
04-14-2010, 09:11 AM
Not to be a prick, but you are in the minority in the whole industry. For every guy in your position there are 10 more on short call reserve with 10 days off hating life. Aviation is a soul sucking wench.

Also not to be a prick but 60k as a captain? I am going to make around 55k as an FO and for the investment of time and money to get to this point in my career I consider it total crap. Even if i were making 100k it ain't what it used to be.

Just wanted to point out that he's doing that as a EMB captain with around 5 years with the company. We do have a bunch of RJ captains with the same seniority making 75-80K.

KiloAlpha
04-14-2010, 09:14 AM
4 years of college (in my last year), 5+ years of HARD experience in IT (Lots of 24+ hour work days, late nights, early mornings, etc, etc), and I still make less than 46 grand, and I am in the Northeast. My friend drives for UPS and is lucky to make 17 - 18 bux an hour. He drives the big trucks too, so I don't know where those numbers are coming from. The entire country sucks unless you are born into money these days... Hopefully it changes soon, I still see myself flying professionally one day...

Well you probably made $46k per year because you were not good at the job. My friend is 24 and making $80k for a company that already paid for his undergrad and is now paying for his 2 (yes 2) graduate degrees. You just worked for a bad company or sucked at the job, period.

Utah
04-14-2010, 09:21 AM
Well you probably made $46k per year because you were not good at the job. My friend is 24 and making $80k for a company that already paid for his undergrad and is now paying for his 2 (yes 2) graduate degrees. You just worked for a bad company or sucked at the job, period.

And in another 2-3 years will lay him off to replace him with a new graduate at 35K a year. I've known a bunch of people that have worked in the industry as well.

Trip7
04-14-2010, 09:36 AM
This is a lazy mans industry. You can be a marginal to sucky pilot but as long as you can pass a PC once in a while you get to keep your job. No amount of studying, preparation or motivation will improve your position in the airlines. Seniority is all that matters.

I suppose if I had come straight out of college into an RJ, upgraded in 18 months and left for a legacy within 2 or 3 yrs of my career I might have a little different opinion. Even if I were one of those people you still have no real control over your career. It's all about the seniority and playing the waiting game.

Absolutely False. ASA's current COO started out as a line pilot and now makes over 600k a yr after bonuses. Our Director of Safety, as well as our Director of Flight Ops all started their carriers as line pilots.

If you're lazy or average you will be stuck at an "average position" in any career field. But if you're truly talented enough to prove you're a valuable asset to the company, the company will find a way to pay you "more than average" for your skills.

GlobeTreker
04-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Absolutely False. ASA's current COO started out as a line pilot and now makes over 600k a yr after bonuses. Our Director of Safety, as well as our Director of Flight Ops all started their carriers as line pilots.

If you're lazy or average you will be stuck at an "average position" in any career field. But if you're truly talented enough to prove you're a valuable asset to the company, the company will find a way to pay you "more than average" for your skills.

Apples and oranges my friend. You're not even talking about a pilot job anymore. You're only validating my point on why it is smarter and more financially lucrative to get out of the cockpit and the industry.

samuraiguytn
04-14-2010, 10:01 AM
It just so happens that I am trained in many areas around aviation. Im also in the Army National Guard. My well is deep my friend.

AirWillie
04-14-2010, 10:03 AM
4 years of college (in my last year), 5+ years of HARD experience in IT (Lots of 24+ hour work days, late nights, early mornings, etc, etc), and I still make less than 46 grand, and I am in the Northeast. My friend drives for UPS and is lucky to make 17 - 18 bux an hour. He drives the big trucks too, so I don't know where those numbers are coming from. The entire country sucks unless you are born into money these days... Hopefully it changes soon, I still see myself flying professionally one day...

................get out of the Northeast.............. you might have a better outlook on life.

asims33
04-14-2010, 10:03 AM
It just so happens that I am trained in many areas around aviation. Im also in the Army National Guard. My well is deep my friend.



Easy guys lets keep this nice here...we are all professionals no need for low blows or threats.

asims33
04-14-2010, 10:05 AM
................get out of the Northeast.............. you might have a better outlook on life.



Hahaha beat me too it...it would take alot to make me live up there.

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 10:07 AM
I don't understand...You're making around 50k, your wife is making good money, you're flying daytrips, but you unhappy? You also state you see your friends you grew up with buying houses and going on vacation. I'm assuming you and your wife make over 100k combined. How can you not buy a house and go on vacation?

I know an XJET FO who creates a mini-vacation for himself every month by being creative with dropping and picking up trips. This guy is in some foreign country having a blast every month. There are very few jobs in the world that you can do that.


yeah, I make 50k because I am a slave, working as much as I can, and doing that picking up ADV only is tough. The cost of living in the Northeast is astronomical. My Wife and own a house, however I don't want to live in Hoboken forever

Tink
04-14-2010, 10:09 AM
I think a lot of how you view your life at an airline is relative. The job is not that hard. The pay sucks at first, maybe for a while. Even when you are working 12 hour days, is it really that difficult? I guess you need more of a passion for it. Maybe some people should spend a few years in the infantry, do a couple combat deployments then come back. I hear a lot of whining about a very easy, laid back job.

samuraiguytn
04-14-2010, 10:11 AM
IM just so sick of people B_tching when they have a job. Instead of coming on here and venting, they should just be leaving. No one wants to hear why their life sucks when other people have their own problems to deal with. I had to take a job where I don't get to see my wife and kid but 6 days a month. And they are complaining about the 11-15 that they are home. I already had to miss the birth of my daughter because of my furlough. That happened when I had to Joined the Guard and was the only Job I could find. But Im not whining about it. Im glad I did it. SO yeah you hate this industry, don't wait...just leave.

AirWillie
04-14-2010, 10:12 AM
There are probably many on these forums that wanted to say what you have said. Thanks for taking the positive side for once.

No just you two. And the poor college kids on 150k loans that are still in denial.

AirWillie
04-14-2010, 10:15 AM
I think a lot of how you view your life at an airline is relative. The job is not that hard. The pay sucks at first, maybe for a while. Even when you are working 12 hour days, is it really that difficult? I guess you need more of a passion for it. Maybe some people should spend a few years in the infantry, do a couple combat deployments then come back. I hear a lot of whining about a very easy, laid back job.

You obviously are not a pilot.

BoilerUP
04-14-2010, 10:16 AM
Lots of unmet, unrealistic, and occasionally downright naive expectations afloat in this thread...

Dan64456
04-14-2010, 10:16 AM
Well you probably made $46k per year because you were not good at the job. My friend is 24 and making $80k for a company that already paid for his undergrad and is now paying for his 2 (yes 2) graduate degrees. You just worked for a bad company or sucked at the job, period.

By this flawed logic, I guess everyone that is underpaid sucks at their job? What was your parents combined income growing up by the way? Or how about your 24 yr old friend?

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 10:16 AM
IM just so sick of people B_tching when they have a job. Instead of coming on here and venting, they should just be leaving. No one wants to hear why their life sucks when other people have their own problems to deal with. I had to take a job where I don't get to see my wife and kid but 6 days a month. And they are complaining about the 11-15 that they are home. I already had to miss the birth of my daughter because of my furlough. That happened when I had to Joined the Guard and was the only Job I could find. But Im not whining about it. Im glad I did it. SO yeah you hate this industry, don't wait...just leave.

I am leaving, thats the point of this thread, "WHO ELSE IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO GET OUT", I am not going to leave until i can secure something else, or find soemthing else where I can fly a few trips a month for the Health Insurance, but I will tell you this much

I VALUE MYSELF, and my skill as a professional airline pilot to be worth more then the pathetic pay I recieve, or the long hours I have to put up with. Maybe if I lived in middle america where 200k could by you a house, not here. I could move, however I love being around family and love Jersey ;).

look, to those that are staying, I am not going to bash you, to each his own, I however, am leaving, not worth the sacrifice anymore.........

The ultimate would be finding something that I could do that would also allow for me to fly on occasion, this way I am doing it on my own terms, not the companies

Diver Driver
04-14-2010, 10:19 AM
You obviously are not a pilot.

As a matter of fact, he is. I can vouch for that.

Dan64456
04-14-2010, 10:23 AM
Hahaha beat me too it...it would take alot to make me live up there.

I was born here... fam/friends/job here as well. Living costs weren't always this bad. Those went out of control starting about 2001. Eventually I may find my life somewhere else, but there aren't too many IT jobs outside of major city areas...

Trip7
04-14-2010, 10:29 AM
yeah, I make 50k because I am a slave, working as much as I can, and doing that picking up ADV only is tough. The cost of living in the Northeast is astronomical. My Wife and own a house, however I don't want to live in Hoboken forever

I know what you mean. Thats why I commute to reserve in IAD. $1100/month in DC will get you a dingy one bedroom apartment on the outskirts of the city. $1100/month in ATL will get you a plush high-rise apartment or condo in Buckhead

asims33
04-14-2010, 10:30 AM
I was born here... fam/friends/job here as well. Living costs weren't always this bad. Those went out of control starting about 2001. Eventually I may find my life somewhere else, but there aren't too many IT jobs outside of major city areas...


There are major cities that arent in the northeast....Glad you like it up there but i wouldnt :p

TurboDog
04-14-2010, 11:47 AM
4 years of college (in my last year), 5+ years of HARD experience in IT (Lots of 24+ hour work days, late nights, early mornings, etc, etc), and I still make less than 46 grand, and I am in the Northeast. My friend drives for UPS and is lucky to make 17 - 18 bux an hour. He drives the big trucks too, so I don't know where those numbers are coming from. The entire country sucks unless you are born into money these days... Hopefully it changes soon, I still see myself flying professionally one day...

If you have 4 years of college and 5 years of IT experience and you are only making 46K, there is something wrong. 5 of my closest friends in KY went through schools like New Horizons and Gateway Community college to obtain their MCSE and other certifications. The least successful person is only 4 years out of school and owns his own Network Administration Consulting company and is making about 110K a year. All of the others are Grossing over 250K. Not one of these individual has a college degree. Only training for the certificates that they hold. In fact one of my buddies just hired a guy that is fresh out of school and is paying him around 55K a year.

My suggestion to you. Once you know the basics, don't allow someone else to make money off of you. Go into business for yourself. Most of my buddies worked for about a year at other IT or IS companies before they went into business for themselves.

KiloAlpha
04-14-2010, 11:54 AM
By this flawed logic, I guess everyone that is underpaid sucks at their job? What was your parents combined income growing up by the way? Or how about your 24 yr old friend?

You are saying you are underpaid, I am saying you are paid on a level that coincides with your performance. Did I lose you again? Let me dumb it down... you no worky good, you no get paid good

BoilerUP
04-14-2010, 11:57 AM
Most of my buddies worked for about a year...before they went into business for themselves.

That seems to be a reoccurring theme in this thread when it comes to true wealth building...regardless of industry.

Utah
04-14-2010, 12:05 PM
Very few people really make the big bucks working for someone else. If I get out of flying it would have to be to go into business for myself.

Blueskies21
04-14-2010, 12:25 PM
You are saying you are underpaid, I am saying you are paid on a level that coincides with your performance. Did I lose you again? Let me dumb it down... you no worky good, you no get paid good
LOL. That's funny, I don't care who you are.

LeftWing
04-14-2010, 12:36 PM
I think a lot of how you view your life at an airline is relative. The job is not that hard. The pay sucks at first, maybe for a while. Even when you are working 12 hour days, is it really that difficult? I guess you need more of a passion for it. Maybe some people should spend a few years in the infantry, do a couple combat deployments then come back. I hear a lot of whining about a very easy, laid back job.

You obviously are not a pilot.


You are obviously not a pilot, + 1.

......at least not a professional pilot.

ThrustMonkey
04-14-2010, 01:24 PM
I think, as others have said, the best bet is to have your own business once you get out. Unfortunately this is infinitely easier said than done. If it was as easy as "Oh, the heck with this I'm out to run my own business and make great money" then everyone would be doing it in droves.

In a general sense going in to business for yourself sounds so romantic and exciting until you are neck deep in the nitty gritty of inventory, sales, payroll, business taxes, accounting, law, etc. that the luster wears off rapidly and you are left pulling your hair out daily. BUT, if you are a success, kudos and enjoy the fruits!!! :D

blastoff
04-14-2010, 01:54 PM
Maybe some people should spend a few years in the infantry, do a couple combat deployments then come back. I hear a lot of whining about a very easy, laid back job.

Do we have to compare everything to the infantry? Is that your attempt to end this conversation?

Icelandair
04-14-2010, 02:56 PM
I was a 5 year FO at one of the so called "better" regionals, and decided to bail last October. As others have pointed out, 400 hours TAFB with 13 out of 35 days off was just out of control for the pay in return. The only trips available were either four day trips of 5-6 day trips with one night in base during them. Then when the furloughs started, the upgrade zoomed up to 12-14 years at a regional. If I started at 24, that would make me 36-38 before I even made captain, let alone a few more years before I could even attempt to be competitive to apply at a major. As the reality of flying another 35 years for this regional started to settle in, I looked for the exit sign.

Then throw in the fact that I was taking a defacto pay cut every year while management dragged on the new contract negotiations. No raise for me while the cost of living goes up = pay cut.

I couldn't be happier away from the airlines. We are out of the big city with all the traffic and high priced living conditions, and living near family in a small town in Idaho. I finally have hobbies again and no longer have to miss my son grow up.

It's all a luck game. The ones who are happy tend to have joined the airlines at the right time, quickly upgraded, and are generally insulated at this point from the issues facing newer guys who joined at the wrong time. Both people are equally skilled, just some are luckier than others. I was dealt a bad hand by this industry, and value myself enough to say no more. Run joey, run fast!

johnso29
04-14-2010, 04:08 PM
This is a lazy mans industry. You can be a marginal to sucky pilot but as long as you can pass a PC once in a while you get to keep your job. No amount of studying, preparation or motivation will improve your position in the airlines. Seniority is all that matters.

I suppose if I had come straight out of college into an RJ, upgraded in 18 months and left for a legacy within 2 or 3 yrs of my career I might have a little different opinion. Even if I were one of those people you still have no real control over your career. It's all about the seniority and playing the waiting game.


That's where you're wrong. My friend who is in the bottom 1% of his seniority list at DAL just got a Duty Pilot position. He will be working 14-17 days a month for a 102 hour guarantee plus a $1000 override each month. He's approaching 3rd year pay so his rate is around 90 an hour. That's 6 figures before the decimal point. Bottom 1% of the seniority list.

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 04:50 PM
Where is SkyHigh? I wanna let him know I am taking is advice and RUNNING far far away

GlobeTreker
04-14-2010, 05:14 PM
That's where you're wrong. My friend who is in the bottom 1% of his seniority list at DAL just got a Duty Pilot position. He will be working 14-17 days a month for a 102 hour guarantee plus a $1000 override each month. He's approaching 3rd year pay so his rate is around 90 an hour. That's 6 figures before the decimal point. Bottom 1% of the seniority list.

I have no idea what a "duty pilot" is or how many of them you have on staff. I was more referring to some of the less than spectacular captains I have flown with that make nearly double my salary simply because they were hired before me. I could know every system, company procedure and whatever else you could ever want to know and I 'll still be an FO and the occasional moron captain will still have his seat and pay grade.

Stay and play pilot til 65 if you want. I won't talk you out of it. I am the type of person that wants to find new things to excel at. I have higher than average expectations for my income potential. Apparently I picked the wrong profession. Oops, my bad. I see aviation for what it is and what it became over the last 9 years that I have been involved with it. I want out now. I see it as a dead end street with less than desirable QOL and pay.

ThrustMonkey
04-14-2010, 05:53 PM
I have no idea what a "duty pilot" is or how many of them you have on staff. I was more referring to some of the less than spectacular captains I have flow with that make nearly double my salary simply because they were hired before me. I know every system, company procedure and whatever else you could ever want to know and I 'll still be an FO and the occasional moron captain will still have his seat and pay grade.

Stay and play pilot til 65 if you want. I won't talk you out of it. I am the type of person that want to find new things to excel at. I have higher than average expectations for my income potential. Apparently I picked the wrong profession. Oops, my bad. I see aviation for what it is and what it became over the last 9 years that I have been involved with it. I want out now. I see it as a dead end street with less than desirable QOL and pay.

+1,000,000,000,000,000

crazy pills
04-14-2010, 06:01 PM
Anyone else trying ATC?
Boy am I glad I added it as a second major in college.
Thanks old Legacy guys for selling out scope for a higher hourly rate and destroying this career for us future pilots.

JoeyMeatballs
04-14-2010, 06:01 PM
GlobeTrekker hit the nail right on the head

ATC guys are overworked and underpaid as well

johnso29
04-14-2010, 06:54 PM
60K?? You could make $70k+ driving a delivery van (not truck or semi) for FedEx or UPS. Way to set the bar high for yourself. Some accept mediocrity, others strive to be better.

I expect six figures for working 70-80 hour (TAFB) weeks.

I made $60K plus in my 3rd year at my regional, & will make $75K plus my 3rd year at my Legacy. It would take 10 years to make it to a full time driver for UPS.

Papasiera
04-14-2010, 07:16 PM
I made $60K plus in my 3rd year at my regional, & will make $75K plus my 3rd year at my Legacy. It would take 10 years to make it to a full time driver for UPS.

Easy for you to say. You had perfect timing. I have been at XJT for 4 years and my W2 was $35,000 for 2009. There is no upgrade in sight, and I will be lucky to be a captain here by year 8. If you were making crap money for that long you may have a different opinion. If I had your luck I would love this career!

RU4692
04-14-2010, 07:23 PM
I made $60K plus in my 3rd year at my regional, & will make $75K plus my 3rd year at my Legacy. It would take 10 years to make it to a full time driver for UPS.

You are definitley the exception and not the rule.

wally24
04-14-2010, 07:27 PM
This career is what you make it. When this job becomes your life, than you have issues. I do this job for my days off, which have been few and far between lately. Iíve missed every holiday this year, pretty ****ed about it, but I am optimistic about the future. This industry saw 9-11, one of the worst economic recessions in recent history, and age 65. It was the perfect storm. Things will improve.

I was finance major in college, I heard all about the ďhighĒ paying Wall Street jobs, the six figures that one kid got out of college; it sounds very similar to what the flight schools were promising. Some of those jobs do exist, but the six figures come with 70-80 hour weeks. How much are you really home working that much? If you look at the finance industry, mostly real estate and banking, how well have those jobs fared through this recession.

MBAís are a dime a dozen, especially from no-name schools. They will not guarantee you wealth or happiness, but possible a cubicle. Enjoy the commute to work, the ďwater cooler conversationsĒ, and the highlights of maybe sneaking out early on Friday.

Recently I have had some wake up calls about family members. One started his own business, was very successful, drove a BMW, and had a country club membership. His business was so successful that the company he represented took over his business. There was no buy out, just eliminated him as the middleman. My aunt who is a teacher was counting on a great retirement, just found out her pension is gone because she is now considered an administrator. My dad just took a 50 percent pay cut. Things arenít always great on the outside; you only hear the success stories.

At this point I can say, I truly do appreciate my job.

PBSG
04-14-2010, 07:39 PM
10 year CA at XJT - and I can't sa. I'm actively looking to leave, but it is crossing my mind. My wife decided to go back to school a few years ago to get her PhD, and that was the best decision we've made. She is now working in a career she loves and has tremendous upside. Her starting pay is just under what my pay is now and has a bright future! (Note to all unmarried folks, you don't have to marry into money, you can marry into the POTENTIAL for money).

Having said that, Im gonna try for one major airline. I'm also going to look into things like real estate and coaching baseball. The biggest problem for us is that we are goal oriented people. Once the goals are no longer there or are unattainable due to lack of jobs and whatnot it gets frustrating. I've always wanted to be an airline pilot. Now that I am it's time to look elsewhere.

When I used to bartend years ago we had a crazy guy always hanging out there. He once told me "Dont ever let your job pimp you". I'm not sure why but that's always stuck with me. Now when I deal with idiot gate agents, ghetto FAs, moronic crew schedulers and overall dumb people I always think of that saying. After all, they won't etch my flight time or type ratings on my tombstone. Hopefully they'll say "Loving father, husband and friend", not "He was able to hold weekends off".

TillerEnvy
04-14-2010, 09:19 PM
I made $60K plus in my 3rd year at my regional, & will make $75K plus my 3rd year at my Legacy. It would take 10 years to make it to a full time driver for UPS.

AND he's now an APC mod!! Livin' the dream!

waflyboy
04-15-2010, 03:31 AM
After all, they won't etch my flight time or type ratings on my tombstone. Hopefully they'll say "Loving father, husband and friend", not "He was able to hold weekends off".

My thoughts exactly. Actually, I really liked everything you said.

This job ain't gonna pimp me no more! ;)

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 03:32 AM
10 year CA at XJT - and I can't sa. I'm actively looking to leave, but it is crossing my mind. My wife decided to go back to school a few years ago to get her PhD, and that was the best decision we've made. She is now working in a career she loves and has tremendous upside. Her starting pay is just under what my pay is now and has a bright future! (Note to all unmarried folks, you don't have to marry into money, you can marry into the POTENTIAL for money).

Having said that, Im gonna try for one major airline. I'm also going to look into things like real estate and coaching baseball. The biggest problem for us is that we are goal oriented people. Once the goals are no longer there or are unattainable due to lack of jobs and whatnot it gets frustrating. I've always wanted to be an airline pilot. Now that I am it's time to look elsewhere.

When I used to bartend years ago we had a crazy guy always hanging out there. He once told me "Dont ever let your job pimp you". I'm not sure why but that's always stuck with me. Now when I deal with idiot gate agents, ghetto FAs, moronic crew schedulers and overall dumb people I always think of that saying. After all, they won't etch my flight time or type ratings on my tombstone. Hopefully they'll say "Loving father, husband and friend", not "He was able to hold weekends off".


Good points, I feel like the job has consumed my life..........

I don't know how guys have been commuting from the west coast on reserve for the past 3 years, I just couldn't do it. Tou are also right about dealing with idiot people everyday, especially those in Crew Tracking, payroll, etc.........

Zapata
04-15-2010, 03:41 AM
This is a lazy mans industry. You can be a marginal to sucky pilot but as long as you can pass a PC once in a while you get to keep your job. No amount of studying, preparation or motivation will improve your position in the airlines. Seniority is all that matters.

I suppose if I had come straight out of college into an RJ, upgraded in 18 months and left for a legacy within 2 or 3 yrs of my career I might have a little different opinion. Even if I were one of those people you still have no real control over your career. It's all about the seniority and playing the waiting game.

I'm glad that it is about seniority as there is no better system for airlines that is a lesser evil.

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 04:17 AM
^ though agree to some extent, I was at Colgan when it was a "merrit-based" upgrade and that was not fun either. The problem is, there is little one can do to better themselves one they get hired on at an airline, just a number. That works when you are fat dumb and happy in the seat of your choice, at the airline of your choice, however the road to me sitting right seat in a 73 at CAL is looking rather dim, not sure I can put up with much more of what the industry has to offer. Even then if I where to get there, I would most likely look in the mirror and say to myself, "well, all that sacrifice for this BS?"

Look I am not condemning anyone for sticking it out, I give them credit and wish them luck, I don't know if I lost the "will" to keep on going or if I truly don't think it's worth it in my eyes..........

Jinrai Butai
04-15-2010, 04:59 AM
I'm living the dream. Why leave now?

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 05:01 AM
^ Cause what I thought was a dream in my younger naive days, has turned into a long, miserable, underpaying indentured servitude

BoilerUP
04-15-2010, 05:12 AM
^ Cause what I thought was a dream in my younger naive days, has turned into a long, miserable, underpaying indentured servitude

This hyperbolic rant, more than any of your other posts, reflects a grossly unmet expectation.

How would your perspective be different if you had upgraded and were currently a reserve CA in EWR? What about if you were a lineholdier CA? How about if you had stayed at Colgan and now were a EWR Q400 CA?

Would you still be miserable in any of those circumstances?

whodee
04-15-2010, 05:17 AM
Remember the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. But you still have to mow it.

ashcroft
04-15-2010, 06:24 AM
^ though agree to some extent, I was at Colgan when it was a "merrit-based" upgrade and that was not fun either. The problem is, there is little one can do to better themselves one they get hired on at an airline, just a number. That works when you are fat dumb and happy in the seat of your choice, at the airline of your choice, however the road to me sitting right seat in a 73 at CAL is looking rather dim, not sure I can put up with much more of what the industry has to offer. Even then if I where to get there, I would most likely look in the mirror and say to myself, "well, all that sacrifice for this BS?"

Look I am not condemning anyone for sticking it out, I give them credit and wish them luck, I don't know if I lost the "will" to keep on going or if I truly don't think it's worth it in my eyes..........


I feel ya. I was filling out job apps this morning and thinking wow I can't believe I'm really thinking of giving up after all this work but I just don't think I can stand working 4k hours a year for 70-75k a year. Because of this job I have no life when I'm home other than trying to get things done that needed to be done while I was gone or trying to make up to my family for being gone all the time. And thats after 4 years as a captain and after sitting in a pool for a overseas carrier that pays very well but at the same time would have me gone just as much. At this point I'm willing to even take a pay cut for a few years to get a job where I can have a regular scheduled life so I can A. go back to school which we all know is very hard to do with our schedules. B. have a normal life and not have to tell my family/friends "oh sorry can't gotta work that day" or "sorry on a 4 day be home in a few days". Not to mention how many of us work weekends when the normal person is off and we're off when everybody else is at work. Kinda hard to get together with family/friends when your shedule is opposite.

Add to this the fact that my wife just got/gets offers as a contract RN to work for places for up to 3 months at a time extendable for up to a year that pays for housing, cost of getting state license, cost to where the job is and back to where she lives, pays overtime, pays 1700-2000 a week. Thats over 85k a year + she gets a furnished place with utilities paid for. Thats over 100k a year and all she works is a normal 8 hour day. Yet we fight and fight to say how great this industry is when we spend all this time gone, get treated like crap by managment, and how many of us are working for companies that take 4 + year to negotiate a new contract so that they save money at our expense.

dojetdriver
04-15-2010, 06:57 AM
I'm glad that it is about seniority as there is no better system for airlines that is a lesser evil.

All to true. I'm sure you've been through this, as many others have.

I've been junior, then extremely senior, to extremely junior, then to senior, then back to junior, back to extremely senior, and about to head to extremely extremely junior again.

When you're in the senior category you think "yep, this is the way it should be"

When you're in the junior category you think "god, there's got to be a better way"

Ftrooppilot
04-15-2010, 07:10 AM
Remember the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. But you still have to mow it.

Regional Capt to Major FO move ? "If you shine like a diamond in a goat's a**, why move to another assignment ?" :confused:

Dan64456
04-15-2010, 07:12 AM
You are saying you are underpaid, I am saying you are paid on a level that coincides with your performance. Did I lose you again? Let me dumb it down... you no worky good, you no get paid good

Apparently you're the one thatís lost. You think everyone is honest and people always get treated fairly too I bet. Oh, and everyone has true equal opportunity. Guess you never worked in a corporate setting. Please don't try to talk down to me over a forum, it's utterly pointless.

Dan64456
04-15-2010, 07:38 AM
If you have 4 years of college and 5 years of IT experience and you are only making 46K, there is something wrong. 5 of my closest friends in KY went through schools like New Horizons and Gateway Community college to obtain their MCSE and other certifications. The least successful person is only 4 years out of school and owns his own Network Administration Consulting company and is making about 110K a year. All of the others are Grossing over 250K. Not one of these individual has a college degree. Only training for the certificates that they hold. In fact one of my buddies just hired a guy that is fresh out of school and is paying him around 55K a year.

My suggestion to you. Once you know the basics, don't allow someone else to make money off of you. Go into business for yourself. Most of my buddies worked for about a year at other IT or IS companies before they went into business for themselves.

I appreciate your input, but have you looked at BLS.gov, or salary.com lately? The only ones inching to 100 grand are software engineers/developers, VP's, directors, etc. and they work 80 hours a week too. I know, my roommate is one (software developer), and is super stressed and tired all of the time. When he is home, he is on the laptop going through code. IT itself doesn't pay as well as it used to, and the higher positions require 24 hr on call. If you go to the management / director / project management sides of the career, then you are but a political puppet under the gun more than any other director in the company for less money and more responsibility. Talk about ass kissing jobs. And about the side work / self employed thing? Well they usually keep you busier than regular jobs, and they will blow up your phone twice as much.

Did it ever occur to any of you that some people actually like to fly and travel? And by travel I mean not pounding the same pavement or train tracks every single day at the same exact time back and forth like a rat in a maze. Maybe you all do need to quit being a pilot and work at a regular job for 5 years, then come back and talk here about how much better and more exciting your life is.

Everyone knows this or that person making 200K doing this or that. Guess what? They are in the minority, and gaining a position like that is like hitting the lottery.

tomgoodman
04-15-2010, 07:45 AM
FWIW, a friend once complained "This job is killin' me. I can't take it!" (he was commuting to MD-11 reserve Capt). I asked why he bid that position. He said "Because I could hold it." :rolleyes:

gearcrankr
04-15-2010, 07:56 AM
Joey Meatballs
Have you looked into something else? Friends?Family?Business Brokers? local chamber of commerce meeting? Opportunities exist you just have to find them. It is possible to stumble onto something (motivated seller due to death, divorce or retirement. Some business owners just want to throttle back) Good luck and good due diligence. The best deal is a sh1tty one you didnt make...

Blueskies21
04-15-2010, 08:09 AM
Did it ever occur to any of you that some people actually like to fly and travel? And by travel I mean not pounding the same pavement or train tracks every single day at the same exact time back and forth like a rat in a maze. Maybe you all do need to quit being a pilot and work at a regular job for 5 years, then come back and talk here about how much better and more exciting your life is.


You're obviously not a working pilot, what we do can only loosely be called "travel". You'll see hundreds of airports and hotels, and hotel vans. A good overnight is defined as a hotel within walking distance to something semi interesting, or at least a bar. Longest regular overnight you'll have at a regional is maybe 14-15 hours, you'll get alot more in the 8-11 hour range. Keep in mind you probably need to sleep oh... 5 hours of that minimum, the more you like sleep the less you'll see during your "travel". It's not all roses and sunshine over here either, just a different rat in a longer maze.
I personally feel that these things NEED to be discussed b/c at least if you've heard these things before coming into the career none of it can be a shock, too many pilots spend too much time bragging about their awesome life to the detriment of us all. Management can pay peanuts because guys want to "travel", they laugh all the way to the bank.
Go compare regional airline benefits to regular corporate america, you'll almost certainly discover that 401k's are undermatched, health care is nothing spectacular and they make that all up because.... you get to travel!!!
Rant off

TurboDog
04-15-2010, 08:20 AM
I appreciate your input, but have you looked at BLS.gov, or salary.com lately? The only ones inching to 100 grand are software engineers/developers, VP's, directors, etc. and they work 80 hours a week too. I know, my roommate is one (software developer), and is super stressed and tired all of the time. When he is home, he is on the laptop going through code. IT itself doesn't pay as well as it used to, and the higher positions require 24 hr on call. If you go to the management / director / project management sides of the career, then you are but a political puppet under the gun more than any other director in the company for less money and more responsibility. Talk about ass kissing jobs. And about the side work / self employed thing? Well they usually keep you busier than regular jobs, and they will blow up your phone twice as much.

Did it ever occur to any of you that some people actually like to fly and travel? And by travel I mean not pounding the same pavement or train tracks every single day at the same exact time back and forth like a rat in a maze. Maybe you all do need to quit being a pilot and work at a regular job for 5 years, then come back and talk here about how much better and more exciting your life is.

Everyone knows this or that person making 200K doing this or that. Guess what? They are in the minority, and gaining a position like that is like hitting the lottery.

I am not knocking anyone that wants to stay in the airline industry. It wasn't for me and I got out. I am happy for that. In my original post I stated that those were just my opinions on my account. I don't speak for every aviator out there.

Go ahead and go to that same website and look up what a pilot makes. Accurate? Didn't think so.

As far as the IT industry goes, you must not be seeing something right. Or perhaps you and your buddies are in the wrong place. I was at B-dubs last night with said friend of mine and I asked my buddy just to double check my numbers. It just so turns out that he hired another guy right out of college with no experience. Started this guys at 45K. One of the guys that he brought out for drinks is a Programmer with an IS degree from UC and with now 8 years in the business is making 120K. That guys doesn't own his own company either. Where did you get your 5 years of HARD IT experience?

Please understand that I am not trying to knock you or your decisions, but I am having a hard time seeing how you can't get anywhere in that industry. I am surrounded by guys in that industry and they all do very well for themselves. Most are owner/operators, but not all. And they all seem to have more time on their hands than my fellow aviator friends. I will say this, IT is not an industry for anyone and if you don't know what you are doing, or if you are just mediocre at what you are doing, of course you will not succeed.

As far as the 200K positions being a minority, I offer you this advice. As long as you think that, it will hold true for you. However, others out their will be achieving it. Most of those jobs that pay that high are business owners, but hey so be it. You get what you give. Now if owning isn't for you, that is OK too. But realize that if you want to make 6 figures in this world today, you are going to have to work for it.

JetJock16
04-15-2010, 08:36 AM
FWIW, a friend once complained "This job is killin' me. I can't take it!" (he was commuting to MD-11 reserve Capt). I asked why he bid that position. He said "Because I could hold it." :rolleyes:

The wisdom of those who have been there. Thanx Tom, I truly mean that.

Iím on 5th year EMB-120 (only 30 seats) CA pay and last year I average 14 days off/month as a composite line-holder, currently Iím a guaranteed line-holder. I donít pick up open time and I drop as much as I can to make my commute easier, although I do help out other CAís and pick their posted flying up whenever it complements my schedule. Because of that I averaged 93.2 hours/month and in 09 I grossed $66,921, all with EVERY holiday I wanted off (4th, X-mas, Thanksgiving, anniversaries, B-Days and 2 long vacations), not bad for a junior 30 seat Turbo-Prop Captain (note: $67K is only descent for a 30 seat JR TP CA).

I also have a horrible commute, yes several pilots Iíve flown with have it worse but commuting from ATL to FAT (2 legs/transcon) with a beautiful wife, 4 year old daughter and a 2 month only daughter sure does wear you down. In all fairness I havenít touched an airplane in 8 weeks (FMLA 2 month old girl/errrrrr vacation from the commute) but I head back to work on Friday the 16th. I DO NOT regret taking the upgrade and I truly believe it will pay off for me sooner rather than later. I live in ATL and my app is in at AirTran and I have several recs at DAL. Iím not delusional about pay and I understand the industry very well seeing that Iím a second generation airline pilot. I also have an opportunity to leave the airlines and join the corporate world flying international although that position wonít open up until the early part of 2011. In my mind whatever comes first.

In other words, I have NO desire to leave this industry. I posses a BS and have 5 years of high sales experience with countless awards that I gained before joining SKW. I would gladly take my life now over my 70+ hour weeks with high stress and no time off. Even if I had time off I found myself always thinking about tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, my employees, my boss and my customers with anxiety. I now love my time off and that I can walk away without ever looking back. I also love the random schedules; to put it clearly, this life is for me. But if my airline career comes to an end Iím very glad I have a solid foundation to fall back on.

I just want everyone who reads this threat to understand that only you can lead your life and only you can make your decisions. Whatever you decide I hope it works out for the best but whatever happens only you can take responsibility for it. Educate others so they can make a more informed decision but don't persuade because what's not right for you might be right for them and 2 paths are never the same.

Good day all.

samuraiguytn
04-15-2010, 10:27 AM
I just want everyone who reads this threat to understand that only you can lead your life and only you can make your decisions. Whatever you decide I hope it works out for the best but whatever happens only you can take responsibility for it. Educate others so they can make a more informed decision but don't persuade because what's not right for you might be right for them and 2 paths are never the same.

Good day all.


My sentimates exactly. Well Put!!

NightIP
04-15-2010, 10:55 AM
The wisdom of those who have been there. Thanx Tom, I truly mean that.

Iím on 5th year EMB-120 (only 30 seats) CA pay and last year I average 14 days off/month as a composite line-holder, currently Iím a guaranteed line-holder. I donít pick up open time and I drop as much as I can to make my commute easier, although I do help out other CAís and pick their posted flying up whenever it complements my schedule. Because of that I averaged 93.2 hours/month and in 09 I grossed $66,921, all with EVERY holiday I wanted off (4th, X-mas, Thanksgiving, anniversaries, B-Days and 2 long vacations), not bad for a junior 30 seat Turbo-Prop Captain (note: $67K is only descent for a 30 seat JR TP CA).

I also have a horrible commute, yes several pilots Iíve flown with have it worse but commuting from ATL to FAT (2 legs/transcon) with a beautiful wife, 4 year old daughter and a 2 month only daughter sure does wear you down. In all fairness I havenít touched an airplane in 8 weeks (FMLA 2 month old girl/errrrrr vacation from the commute) but I head back to work on Friday the 16th. I DO NOT regret taking the upgrade and I truly believe it will pay off for me sooner rather than later. I live in ATL and my app is in at AirTran and I have several recs at DAL. Iím not delusional about pay and I understand the industry very well seeing that Iím a second generation airline pilot. I also have an opportunity to leave the airlines and join the corporate world flying international although that position wonít open up until the early part of 2011. In my mind whatever comes first.

In other words, I have NO desire to leave this industry. I posses a BS and have 5 years of high sales experience with countless awards that I gained before joining SKW. I would gladly take my life now over my 70+ hour weeks with high stress and no time off. Even if I had time off I found myself always thinking about tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, my employees, my boss and my customers with anxiety. I now love my time off and that I can walk away without ever looking back. I also love the random schedules; to put it clearly, this life is for me. But if my airline career comes to an end Iím very glad I have a solid foundation to fall back on.

I just want everyone who reads this threat to understand that only you can lead your life and only you can make your decisions. Whatever you decide I hope it works out for the best but whatever happens only you can take responsibility for it. Educate others so they can make a more informed decision but don't persuade because what's not right for you might be right for them and 2 paths are never the same.

Good day all.

Good post.

Question though: How long did you sit in the right seat before upgrade? Chances are, if you had a relatively quick upgrade your experience and outlook toward the industry is much different from a guy looking at years and years to the left seat.

Trip7
04-15-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm also wondering of those who are actively seeking to get out, how many have work experience in another field?

Icelandair
04-15-2010, 11:20 AM
When I used to bartend years ago we had a crazy guy always hanging out there. He once told me "Dont ever let your job pimp you". I'm not sure why but that's always stuck with me. Now when I deal with idiot gate agents, ghetto FAs, moronic crew schedulers and overall dumb people I always think of that saying. After all, they won't etch my flight time or type ratings on my tombstone. Hopefully they'll say "Loving father, husband and friend", not "He was able to hold weekends off".

This quote made sense to me, I felt so undervalued and like a cheap hooker wh***ring myself out to scheduling as they modded my schedule at their whim and took away time that should have been mine, often for very little to no extra credit on my line. So eventually I changed the caller ID for them to my pimp, because thats exactly what they were.

Purpleanga
04-15-2010, 11:42 AM
I'm also wondering of those who are actively seeking to get out, how many have work experience in another field?

Why does it matter? The point is they're sick of this one.

The only thing keeping people flying is the actual love for it, if you take that away, there's no job satisfaction, no benefits, low pay and all the rest of it. That's why people are leaving. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Trip7
04-15-2010, 12:19 PM
Why does it matter? The point is they're sick of this one.

The only thing keeping people flying is the actual love for it, if you take that away, there's no job satisfaction, no benefits, low pay and all the rest of it. That's why people are leaving. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I love flying, Im pretty satisfied with my job, I have decent health insurance, have been able to travel around the globe and had a blast , the pay at my regional airline is decent past 1st year, and I have no intention of leaving even though I face 3+ years til upgrade. The airline biz does have its problems but it sure as heck beats running the rat race in the corporate world working for someone else. The juice is worth the squeeze for me, but it may not be for many others.

But like someone put it earlier, only you can know what you want to do with your life and what makes you happy. Some people are very comfortable and happy flying airplanes in the current environment, some aren't. The best advice is to purse a choice that will make you happy and improve your QOL. But be careful, the grass may not be as green on the other side as it appears:D

KingAirPIC
04-15-2010, 12:28 PM
Actively looking to get out of this country's airline industry. Still want to fly, just not here. It's obvious my career would be better elsewhere.

Also actively trying to improve my home based small business. It boarders on irresponsibility to solely rely on an aviation career these days.

My advice to any prospective career pilot. Do not get an aviation degree. Or at least minor in aviation and major in something more portable.

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 12:29 PM
This hyperbolic rant, more than any of your other posts, reflects a grossly unmet expectation.

How would your perspective be different if you had upgraded and were currently a reserve CA in EWR? What about if you were a lineholdier CA? How about if you had stayed at Colgan and now were a EWR Q400 CA?

Would you still be miserable in any of those circumstances?

If you think being a Q400 Captain and an airline like Colgan would make me happier, your out of your mind...........

fatmike69
04-15-2010, 12:31 PM
Good post.

Question though: How long did you sit in the right seat before upgrade? Chances are, if you had a relatively quick upgrade your experience and outlook toward the industry is much different from a guy looking at years and years to the left seat.

I think JetJock and I are probably around the same seniority, so I will add a response as well. I sat 3 years in the right seat, 2 in the EMB, and 1 in the CRJ. This was by choice. I got comforatable with my QOL in the right seat by moving up the seniority list so quickly as upgrades at the time were 1 year in EMB, and about 1.5 years in the CRJ. I took the upgrade late, and sure enough they stopped the upgrades 1 class after I did. God only knows how much longer before we have any more upgrades here at SKYW, we are going on 2 years now since the last class. My guess is probably 2011 sometime. And you are correct, the outlook for someone looking at years in the right seat and commuting is going to be vastly different than from the left. It's really all luck of the draw for the most part. I'm sure someday my luck will run out, but that's just part of the experience in this industry, right!?

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 12:36 PM
Joey Meatballs
Have you looked into something else? Friends?Family?Business Brokers? local chamber of commerce meeting? Opportunities exist you just have to find them. It is possible to stumble onto something (motivated seller due to death, divorce or retirement. Some business owners just want to throttle back) Good luck and good due diligence. The best deal is a sh1tty one you didnt make...

Fortunately for me, my family is very supportive, and my wife not only hates the industry but makes more money than I could ever at XJT, so its not like I am the one who puts food on the table. (I would actually like to be the one who pays the majority of the mortgage) I have been speaking with a good friend of mind who's family just had their year anniversary of opening up a carwash, so he is looking to get out from underneath that and go out on his own, we do have a few things we have always talked about, and the best part is, I can seriously pull down my flying here (ADV day trips) to pursue it, so in one respect this job is good for that.

Also whoever said take a look at salary.com, I don't care what you read, everyone around me (except for those I work with) makes close to, if not well over 100k/year, and IT, or middle management is not in their job description.

Some of you guys are calling me preachy, or me being guilty of "hyperbolic rants", it is what it is, I am just sharing how I feel and looking for input from those who have obviously felt the same

Puckhead
04-15-2010, 12:40 PM
I am currently considering pharmacy....

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 12:42 PM
A pharmacist? Thats a great gig, also if you could get into Pharma Sales, it is KILLER, days are not too long, car is paid for and bonuses are HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Puckhead
04-15-2010, 12:47 PM
A pharmacist? Thats a great gig, also if you could get into Pharma Sales, it is KILLER, days are not too long, car is paid for and bonuses are HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I have two week of vacation I am using next month to check schools out. I dont know if Ill do it or not yet but I figure it is more than worth a look.

johnso29
04-15-2010, 12:58 PM
Well I have two week of vacation I am using next month to check schools out. I dont know if Ill do it or not yet but I figure it is more than worth a look.


My younger sister just got accepted to Creighton School of Pharmacy, and will be doing their online program. That's always an option too.

Puckhead
04-15-2010, 01:05 PM
My younger sister just got accepted to Creighton School of Pharmacy, and will be doing their online program. That's always an option too.

I had no idea they had online programs! Thanks a lot I will be checking this out for sure.

johnso29
04-15-2010, 01:06 PM
Fortunately for me, my family is very supportive, and my wife not only hates the industry but makes more money than I could ever at XJT, so its not like I am the one who puts food on the table. (I would actually like to be the one who pays the majority of the mortgage) I have been speaking with a good friend of mind who's family just had their year anniversary of opening up a carwash, so he is looking to get out from underneath that and go out on his own, we do have a few things we have always talked about, and the best part is, I can seriously pull down my flying here (ADV day trips) to pursue it, so in one respect this job is good for that.

Also whoever said take a look at salary.com, I don't care what you read, everyone around me (except for those I work with) makes close to, if not well over 100k/year, and IT, or middle management is not in their job description.

Some of you guys are calling me preachy, or me being guilty of "hyperbolic rants", it is what it is, I am just sharing how I feel and looking for input from those who have obviously felt the same



Hey Joe,

Was their something that finally broke you, or has this been building for a while? I know things have gone down hill at XE since I left, plus I know you are married now to a wife that makes some good $$$. Has it been a combination of things, or did something finally just make you say "I'm OUT!!"?

I can understand where you are coming from. Looks like the lifers are really increasing at XE, and so upgrade is getting farther away. Plus, I've been told that a bunch of guys who held out before are realizing it was a huge mistake and so they are taking these latest rounds of upgrades further increasing upgrade times. Combine that with the potentional marriage of CAL/UAL, and things are looking darker by the day as far as advancement goes. You also live in NY City, so I would imagine that college degree jobs pay healthy salaries due to the higher cost of living. I can see lots of things that are dragging you down, and I haven't even mentioned your ALPA position yet.

I'm 100% sincere when I say I hope you find what you are looking for Man. Good Luck in your search for a new career.


Cheers :)

johnso29
04-15-2010, 01:09 PM
I had no idea they had online programs! Thanks a lot I will be checking this out for sure.


Definitely check it out. Her husband is in the Navy, and they live in Jacksonville, FL so she will be doing everything online. When the semester starts she has to go to campus for 2 weeks for orientation, but she can stay in a dorm room for $20 a night and they will teach her how to use the online program.

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 02:12 PM
Hey Joe,

Was their something that finally broke you, or has this been building for a while? I know things have gone down hill at XE since I left, plus I know you are married now to a wife that makes some good $$$. Has it been a combination of things, or did something finally just make you say "I'm OUT!!"?

I can understand where you are coming from. Looks like the lifers are really increasing at XE, and so upgrade is getting farther away. Plus, I've been told that a bunch of guys who held out before are realizing it was a huge mistake and so they are taking these latest rounds of upgrades further increasing upgrade times. Combine that with the potentional marriage of CAL/UAL, and things are looking darker by the day as far as advancement goes. You also live in NY City, so I would imagine that college degree jobs pay healthy salaries due to the higher cost of living. I can see lots of things that are dragging you down, and I haven't even mentioned your ALPA position yet.

I'm 100% sincere when I say I hope you find what you are looking for Man. Good Luck in your search for a new career.


Cheers :)

not really one thing per se, just a culmination and coming up on my 30th birthday. I remember thinking when I got hired at Colgan, "wow I am a 24yr old airline pilot, life is sweet", now its like, "wow I am going to be a 30yr old airline pilot making 45k with no improvement in sight", what the hell happened

JetJock16
04-15-2010, 02:41 PM
Good post.

Question though: How long did you sit in the right seat before upgrade? Chances are, if you had a relatively quick upgrade your experience and outlook toward the industry is much different from a guy looking at years and years to the left seat.

Yes 2 paths are never the same and I’ve been lucky to say the least. Actually I’ve been very lucky in life in general. Other than my father passing away every path I’ve taken, whether it be personal or professional, has payoff.

As for professional I’ve been fortunate to have solid guidance and it was that guidance that led to me SKW. My father used to say, “once your career is over and you look back, whether it be good or bad, you’ll see that it was all just dumb luck.” I agree but I believe we still have some control. So I decided to look into the companies I wanted to apply to. I wanted to read between the lines and get a good picture of their futures and what life would be like as a pilot under their rules. I understand that their future can change quickly (9/11) or slowly (SKW) and I know that having good Mgmnt teams only last so long. After my research I decided on SkyWest. I knew this industry is cyclical and if my upgrade ended up taking longer than I’d like I wanted to make sure I had some of the best QOL rules in the industry. In the end it only took me 2.5 years to upgrade (1 yr EMB, 1.5 yr RJ; could have upgraded much earlier).

I will live my life with the understanding that many things can pull me out of this industry and I will prepare myself financially for my exit. I will keep my nose clean and my body healthy and I’ll see how far I make it. Yes I’ve had a good beginning but as for the ending, ask me in 31 years. I just hope that leaving is on my terms.

Note: If someone reads my posting and is looking at entering this industry, please understand that I am in the minority.

minimwage4
04-15-2010, 02:48 PM
I think people are also leaving because there's just not many jobs. Chances are the places hiring now are places that people don't want to fly for anyways. Choices are Colgan, Eagle?? maybe Great Lakes. There's tens of thousands furloughed, at this pace, the places worth going to probably won't be hiring for at least a few years. There is such a backlog in all sections of the industry that it will take years to get any kind of constant movement going again. I'm thinking 5 to 10 years.

JetJock16
04-15-2010, 03:17 PM
I think people are also leaving because there's just not many jobs. Chances are the places hiring now are places that people don't want to fly for anyways. Choices are Colgan, Eagle?? maybe Great Lakes. There's tens of thousands furloughed, at this pace, the places worth going to probably won't be hiring for at least a few years. There is such a backlog in all sections of the industry that it will take years to get any kind of constant movement going again. I'm thinking 5 to 10 years.

I agree except IMO the timely is more like 2-5 years with 5 years being max for constant movement. Of course barring any catastrophes and government intervention.

JoeyMeatballs
04-15-2010, 05:01 PM
^ even if there is movement, so what? I understand CAL is trying to get a decent contract, however besides their payscale, their work rules are complete garbage to little brother Expressjet. So you get lucky, get hired then you have to suck up $30/h and no health insurance? ----- you.................

de727ups
04-15-2010, 05:22 PM
I have to question why anyone would get into this business in the first place if being a pilot a CAL is beneath them. I interviewed there in 89 and would have been happy with a career there, even though I ended up doing better in the end. Not everybody will be happy with this job, but I find it hard to blame the job if your not happy....

crazy pills
04-15-2010, 06:30 PM
GlobeTrekker hit the nail right on the head

ATC guys are overworked and underpaid as well

I don't know if you are married with kids or not but it would be worth it to be home every night. Also, at the busier facilities guys are pulling in $150,000 per year with good benefits and the government pension (for now). Maybe I have a different idea of a decent living than you but that is not bad money.

ThrustMonkey
04-15-2010, 06:45 PM
I have to question why anyone would get into this business in the first place if being a pilot a CAL is beneath them. I interviewed there in 89 and would have been happy with a career there, even though I ended up doing better in the end. Not everybody will be happy with this job, but I find it hard to blame the job if your not happy....

Of course you do, you're sitting left seat at UPS! You are so far removed from commuting to a right seat gig at a regional with no upgrade in sight its not even funny. These guys have a legitimate beef and failing to see why they don't blame it on the job (industry) is naive at best. No doubt you paid your dues but these times are unprecedented when it comes to sitting right seat at a regional, topped out in pay with no upgrade in sight.

FlyJSH
04-15-2010, 07:53 PM
To all of you looking elsewhere, good luck. Fair weather and following seas. And don't let the doorknob hit you in the arse on the way out.

For me, as long as I can hold a medical, I'm staying.

squawkoff
04-15-2010, 08:21 PM
I don't know if you are married with kids or not but it would be worth it to be home every night. Also, at the busier facilities guys are pulling in $150,000 per year with good benefits and the government pension (for now). Maybe I have a different idea of a decent living than you but that is not bad money.

I gave up my dream of flying and went into ATC. Quit for a while, flew SW4's and absolutely loved it. My take home pay flying was what I paid in taxes with the FAA. Decided to go back because we had 4 small children at the time. Stuck with the FAA and retired in 08. However, don't think that because you make a good salary and are home every night that it is all roses. The moaning and complaining I heard during my 25 years from the other controllers sounded just like the complaints I'm hearing on this forum. No respect, crappy schedule, bad management, etc. Pay was fantastic and the retirement even better. Grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but it may be because that green grass is on top of a septic tank.

ThrustMonkey
04-15-2010, 08:26 PM
I gave up my dream of flying and went into ATC. Quit for a while, flew SW4's and absolutely loved it. My take home pay flying was what I paid in taxes with the FAA. Decided to go back because we had 4 small children at the time. Stuck with the FAA and retired in 08. However, don't think that because you make a good salary and are home every night that it is all roses. The moaning and complaining I heard during my 25 years from the other controllers sounded just like the complaints I'm hearing on this forum. No respect, crappy schedule, bad management, etc. Pay was fantastic and the retirement even better. Grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but it may be because that green grass is on top of a septic tank.

And there is the galactic difference............among other things

johnso29
04-15-2010, 08:32 PM
I gave up my dream of flying and went into ATC. Quit for a while, flew SW4's and absolutely loved it. My take home pay flying was what I paid in taxes with the FAA. Decided to go back because we had 4 small children at the time. Stuck with the FAA and retired in 08. However, don't think that because you make a good salary and are home every night that it is all roses. The moaning and complaining I heard during my 25 years from the other controllers sounded just like the complaints I'm hearing on this forum. No respect, crappy schedule, bad management, etc. Pay was fantastic and the retirement even better. Grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but it may be because that green grass is on top of a septic tank.


I think I just found my new signature! :p:D

ThrustMonkey
04-15-2010, 08:37 PM
The grass is always greener where the dogs are [email protected]#$ing.

exeagle
04-15-2010, 09:51 PM
As someone said previously, it does get much better if you make it to a major. The difference is night and day from any regional I've worked at.

I've flown 30 hours this year. Can't beat it....

Just food for thought for those looking to get out. Good luck!

Jeffdh17
04-16-2010, 03:02 AM
My experience:

I quit once. I lasted about 30 days and then got right back in. The other careers I'm interested in would require more schooling and more debt to obtain said schooling. It's not worth it to me to take on more debt. I plan to just stick it out and see what happens. I know a couple of folks with MBA's from top tier Ivy league schools. They were laid off when the recession hit and it has taken them 9 months or longer to find work in the corporate world. It seems as though finding work for any profession is difficult right now, as is demonstrated by the high number of persons receiving unemployment benefits.

Someone commented that they were tired of not being on the same schedule as their families/friends and having to turn down invitations for gatherings or holiday events. I say this: Let them alter their life for you on occasion. When we are away, we are working and can't be faulted for that. Trying to live the lifestyle of a 9-5 'er as an airline pilot is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. It won't work no matter how hard one tries. Besides, many of us (myself included) left the 9-5 gig because we weren't happy with that lifestyle. I have to remind myself of that quite often.

ERJ135
04-16-2010, 04:56 AM
For me, i'm a lifer.. I got 40yrs left, though my planned retirement age is 55. So really 30yrs. All I care about doing in the end is BOS LAX, back and forth. Thats it. Whether its for AA, DAL, JB, whoever. Now, the money side of it, thats a different story all together. I have a bit of an Entrepreneurial streak about me. I love starting different kinds of business. I also love making money work for me, not work for money. To me that is where I plan on making most of money. Airline flying is becoming more of a, get me out of house, fund my retirment, and play money kind of job. On the side, I have an internet franchise. Once I get a piece of land I bought a few years ago sold, i'm going buy my first of many Mulit-families. I'll be incorporating that as a real estate investing business. Next week i'm going to MIA to meet with a family friend and learn how to become a Calibration equipment and services broker. Might open an office in the Boston area. At the very least i'll be getting commission checks. I also, might split a lobster boat with a friend and start a small lobster company. I've always wanted to try it. I might not be successful with everything but, I'll keep trying. The point being, I couldn't do these all these things if I was working 9-5 job. Sure, I hate flying somtimes, pay sucks, boring sometimes, I commute to JFK. However, I still believe the pay off in the end between what I have going on the side and doing the flying that I previously mentioned. I'll be very happy and retire early.

PBSG
04-16-2010, 05:47 AM
I have to question why anyone would get into this business in the first place if being a pilot a CAL is beneath them. I interviewed there in 89 and would have been happy with a career there, even though I ended up doing better in the end. Not everybody will be happy with this job, but I find it hard to blame the job if your not happy....


A job at CAL is not beneath me, however when guys my age think about going over it is a calculated risk, NOT a feeling of "Wow, I made it". Did you save enough to take the paycut? How are you going to get health insurance? Are they going to get a decent contract? Do I really need some scab lecturing me for 8 hours over the Atlantic about his thoughts and theories? Most guys I talked to who went to CAL have the same thought: Glad they went over but it's gonna take years to feel like they "made it" with a major.

Cubdriver
04-16-2010, 05:47 AM
I have a pal at XE, a captain based at Newark. He was really into it a couple years ago, really beaming about the place. Reading between the lines and the fact he won't call me for hour long chats about it anymore, I think he has lost all hope and joy in the job. To saying this poor fellow is crushed would not be an exaggeration, given his previous love for flying airlines. I think when they lost the brand name and downsized a lot in fall of '08 he started getting depressed.

Trip7
04-16-2010, 05:48 AM
For me, i'm a lifer.. I got 40yrs left, though my planned retirement age is 55. So really 30yrs. All I care about doing in the end is BOS LAX, back and forth. Thats it. Whether its for AA, DAL, JB, whoever. Now, the money side of it, thats a different story all together. I have a bit of an Entrepreneurial streak about me. I love starting different kinds of business. I also love making money work for me, not work for money. To me that is where I plan on making most of money. Airline flying is becoming more of a, get me out of house, fund my retirment, and play money kind of job. On the side, I have an internet franchise. Once I get a piece of land I bought a few years ago sold, i'm going buy my first of many Mulit-families. I'll be incorporating that as a real estate investing business. Next week i'm going to MIA to meet with a family friend and learn how to become a Calibration equipment and services broker. Might open an office in the Boston area. At the very least i'll be getting commission checks. I also, might split a lobster boat with a friend and start a small lobster company. I've always wanted to try it. I might not be successful with everything but, I'll keep trying. The point being, I couldn't do these all these things if I was working 9-5 job. Sure, I hate flying somtimes, pay sucks, boring sometimes, I commute to JFK. However, I still believe the pay off in the end between what I have going on the side and doing the flying that I previously mentioned. I'll be very happy and retire early.

Now that how its done! Doing a job you love and using the travel benefits to create more streams of income. Bravo.

Icelandair
04-16-2010, 06:34 AM
But therein lies part of the problem as well. How many times have we seen in this thread a person mention that airline flying will just be their hobby job on the side while they do something else to really pay the bills?

Purpleanga
04-16-2010, 07:37 AM
For me, i'm a lifer.. I got 40yrs left, though my planned retirement age is 55. So really 30yrs. All I care about doing in the end is BOS LAX, back and forth. Thats it. Whether its for AA, DAL, JB, whoever. Now, the money side of it, thats a different story all together. I have a bit of an Entrepreneurial streak about me. I love starting different kinds of business. I also love making money work for me, not work for money. To me that is where I plan on making most of money. Airline flying is becoming more of a, get me out of house, fund my retirment, and play money kind of job. On the side, I have an internet franchise. Once I get a piece of land I bought a few years ago sold, i'm going buy my first of many Mulit-families. I'll be incorporating that as a real estate investing business. Next week i'm going to MIA to meet with a family friend and learn how to become a Calibration equipment and services broker. Might open an office in the Boston area. At the very least i'll be getting commission checks. I also, might split a lobster boat with a friend and start a small lobster company. I've always wanted to try it. I might not be successful with everything but, I'll keep trying. The point being, I couldn't do these all these things if I was working 9-5 job. Sure, I hate flying somtimes, pay sucks, boring sometimes, I commute to JFK. However, I still believe the pay off in the end between what I have going on the side and doing the flying that I previously mentioned. I'll be very happy and retire early.


Please get out of your job and my career. Sounds like all you need is a 172 at the local airport. You don't even know your views are so distorted about this job that you actually post the above. This is not a hobby.

dojetdriver
04-16-2010, 08:02 AM
Grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but it may be because that green grass is on top of a septic tank.

I think I just found my new signature! :p:D

Or, the grass isn't greener, just gets mowed more often.

Zapata
04-16-2010, 08:28 AM
I have a pal at XE, a captain based at Newark. He was really into it a couple years ago, really beaming about the place. Reading between the lines and the fact he won't call me for hour long chats about it anymore, I think he has lost all hope and joy in the job. To saying this poor fellow is crushed would not be an exaggeration, given his previous love for flying airlines. I think when they lost the brand name and downsized a lot in fall of '08 he started getting depressed.

Which airline is "XE"?

dojetdriver
04-16-2010, 08:30 AM
Which airline is "XE"?

ExpressJet Airlines, Continental Express.

MrBigAir
04-16-2010, 10:22 AM
I am definitely attempting to get out.

Why:

Days off that are often in the single digits per month, sometimes I get above 11! OOOoooooooo! And I'm senior.

The pay is miserable. I was very smart and paid for all my flight training in cash, lived the monastic lifestyle, and was frugal right up to today, so I have no debt. But I can't move up in the world without a decent paycheck. I'm over thirty and I've tried so hard to save money, but I essentially have no retirement, no savings, no house, no nothing to show for the past work. Making less than 20K as an FO and just barely 40K as a Captain is not sufficient-- especially in light of the amount of time spent at work in regards to monetary compensation. The equation is not equal.

Multiple base closures and non-commutable trips.

Inability to drop trips or trade trips, therefor I must work the entire schedule at the complete peril to any sort of personal life.

Hostile work environment.

Shoddy MX.

Complete and utter lack of morale in the pilot group.

The future is dark: Larger regionals that are career-long propositions, dwindling pay and work rules at the majors, and perhaps the shadow cheap foreign-sourced labor on the horizon. Everyone wants something for cheap, regardless if they end up shooting their neighbors in the back.

My struggle:

It's what I do. It's what I love to do. I do a good job at it. But I can't keep doing it 6 days on, 1 off, 6 on, etc. into perpetuity with little movement. I've been doing this for years, and it's wearing me out both mentally and physically. It's almost impossible to stay healthy eating airport/hotel food 21 days a month!

What else would I do? Go back to school? Oh the uncertainty!

Then I ask, is this airline gig part of my identity? That's not necessarily a good thing, but sometimes it's nice to have purpose. But we're all specks of dust in the grand scheme of things, shouldn't I enjoy my own bright and few years on this wondrous planet!?

Why I am not worried about leaving:

I am healthy, I have a wonderful loving family who only wants me to be happy and has seen me miserable for too long.

I have no debt (but nothing else either). I have a million interests that I find fascinating and I will find something that will make me happy. I am not interested in another job of exploitation and servitude. No corporate gig, no nine-to-five cubicle. I will figure something out, somehow, and make it work otherwise.

My wife can modestly support both of us on her paycheck. So much for the highly-skilled highly-technical airline pilot job!




Time is the only thing I have that is valuable, and I'll be damned if I give it away again for as long as I have to the airline industry.

Blueskies21
04-16-2010, 10:23 AM
But therein lies part of the problem as well. How many times have we seen in this thread a person mention that airline flying will just be their hobby job on the side while they do something else to really pay the bills?
DING DING DING, we have a winner. Until and unless we can change the attitude of 100% of would be pilots we're all screwed. How many hobby accountants do you think there are in the world? My friends that have real jobs wouldn't do their jobs for the money we make, and not because they hate or love them, they just value themselves too much. We do it to ourselves and then complain.

NightIP
04-16-2010, 11:51 AM
Please get out of your job and my career. Sounds like all you need is a 172 at the local airport. You don't even know your views are so distorted about this job that you actually post the above. This is not a hobby.

I think he's spot on. I wish him the best of luck, and would love to be able to fly on the side of a business I own. You shouldn't feel that you have any right to tell someone how to lead his/her life.

Trip7
04-16-2010, 12:06 PM
DING DING DING, we have a winner. Until and unless we can change the attitude of 100% of would be pilots we're all screwed. How many hobby accountants do you think there are in the world? My friends that have real jobs wouldn't do their jobs for the money we make, and not because they hate or love them, they just value themselves too much. We do it to ourselves and then complain.

You don't have to do the job as a hobby. Sure it can be fulltime. I'm sure that's how most do it. We're just saying that unlike a regular 9-5, this job gives you enough free time to pursue another streams of revenue. Since you mentioned accountants, I give you this tidbit. An account with 5 years experience in Atlanta,GA makes 41-48k. A lineholding FO for ASA in ATL makes 45-51k.

TonyWilliams
04-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Stuck with the FAA and retired in 08..... Pay was fantastic and the retirement even better. Grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but it may be because that green grass is on top of a septic tank.


I just want to caution anybody thinking that an ATC retirement will be waiting for them in 25 years.

Flight Service was "contracted" out (sound familiar to regional scope issues with major airlines?) in Oct 2005. Those planning on a retirement got a big surprise.

There have been, and will be in the future, similar attempts at ATC. Caveat emptor.

squawkoff
04-16-2010, 01:10 PM
I just want to caution anybody thinking that an ATC retirement will be waiting for them in 25 years.

Flight Service was "contracted" out (sound familiar to regional scope issues with major airlines?) in Oct 2005. Those planning on a retirement got a big surprise.

There have been, and will be in the future, similar attempts at ATC. Caveat emptor.

As you all know, timing is everything. For once in my life I was at the right place at the right time.

ERJ135
04-16-2010, 02:04 PM
Please get out of your job and my career. Sounds like all you need is a 172 at the local airport. You don't even know your views are so distorted about this job that you actually post the above. This is not a hobby.

haha, boy I got everybody fired up. thats good, makes for good discussion. Actually I happen to do quite a bit of volunteer work for the union in an attempt to restore this career to what it once was. I'm highly motivated person, and yes to do believe you should be able make 300k at this job. I'll personally do everything I can to help, the only difference is that I still want to get paid when I'm retired.

Blueskies21
04-16-2010, 02:20 PM
You don't have to do the job as a hobby. Sure it can be fulltime. I'm sure that's how most do it. We're just saying that unlike a regular 9-5, this job gives you enough free time to pursue another streams of revenue. Since you mentioned accountants, I give you this tidbit. An account with 5 years experience in Atlanta,GA makes 41-48k. A lineholding FO for ASA in ATL makes 45-51k.

Not sure where exactly you got that information, maybe you have an accountant friend maybe it's one of those ridiculous salary tools that claims pilots make what, 60k? Judging by my experience with accountantsI think your numbers are low but... Using your figures it's very possible that those two people get paid the same now.

Now, lets consider a couple things. The FO is gone 300 hours a month, the accountant 160. How many nights did the accountant spend in a hotel last year, the FO spent 200. The FO has probably one week off that he has to bid for (might be more at ASA not sure on your contract), the accountant very likely has 2 weeks of vacation, and most likely has the 10 federal holidays off too, the FO may or may not work every single holiday depending on his relative seniority. So lets see, not sure exactly what ASA's min day off looks like, but probably 12-13 off, lets use 12. The FO then has 144 days off a year before vacation, we'll call it 151 with his 7 days. The accountant has 8 a month guarenteed, so there's 96, he'll get the 10 federal holidays ,106 and 14 days of vacation, 120 days. The FO got 31 days more off, pretty much best case. Sounds not bad, not bad but wait... TAFB was 300 hours a month, the accountant 160... 140 hours a month or 5.8 days more per month.... times 12 months.... well there's another 70 days a year the FO DIDN'T have that the accountant did. FO 81 totals days, Accountant 120. Pilots don't look at the big picture as much as we think, we just want to brag about how much more time we have off, how much better off we have it than other people... well turns out... the math gets pretty fuzzy.

And lets also not forget the DCI shuffle, if Delta decides it hates ASA tomorrow then that FO could be on the street pretty quickly and back to 20-25k a year. You know what will likely happen to the same accountant, he'll leave that company for a raise. And if he excells at his career, he might get a promotion, what about that FO... well sure when his number comes up....

Just another perspective on the same junk.

Trip7
04-16-2010, 02:41 PM
Not sure where exactly you got that information, maybe you have an accountant friend maybe it's one of those ridiculous salary tools that claims pilots make what, 60k? Using your figures it's very possible that those two people get paid the same now.

Now, lets consider a couple things. The FO is gone 300 hours a month, the accountant 160. How many nights did the accountant spend in a hotel last year, the FO spent 200. The FO has probably one week off that he has to bid for (might be more at ASA not sure on your contract), the accountant very likely has 2 weeks of vacation, and most likely has the 10 federal holidays off too, the FO may or may not work every single holiday depending on his relative seniority. So lets see, not sure exactly what ASA's min day off looks like, but probably 12-13 off, lets use 12. The FO then has 144 days off a year before vacation, we'll call it 151 with his 7 days. The accountant has 8 a month guarenteed, so there's 96, he'll get the 10 federal holidays ,106 and 14 days of vacation, 120 days. The FO got 31 days more off, pretty much best case. Sounds not bad, not bad but wait... TAFB was 300 hours a month, the accountant 160... 140 hours a month or 5.8 days more per month.... times 12 months.... well there's another 70 days a year the FO DIDN'T have that the accountant did. FO 81 totals days, Accountant 120. Pilots don't look at the big picture as much as we think, we just want to brag about how much more time we have off, how much better off we have it than other people... well turns out... the math gets pretty fuzzy.

And lets also not forget the DCI shuffle, if Delta decides it hates ASA tomorrow then that FO could be on the street pretty quickly and back to 20-25k a year. You know what will likely happen to the same accountant, he'll leave that company for a raise. And if he excells at his career, he might get a promotion, what about that FO... well sure when his number comes up....

Just another perspective on the same junk.

Based off friends my age who are accountants. We all make about the same.

Its all relative and up to personal choice. When I got into this career field I knew I would be gone, miss some holidays and I was ok with it. Its a lifestyle I prefer rather than the get up and drive to/from work 5 days a week grind. I've done both. I like the aviation lifestyle better.

You have a point with the FO back to 25k if furloughed. But I know plenty of people that were sales managers at Circuit City making over 100k that are working at Home Depot right now. Not everyone moves on to a higher paying job.

Its two weeks vacation at ASA

As far a promotion goes, if a pilot in talented enough, he will be promoted to the training department. If even more talented, he'll be promoted to the Chief Pilot position. Then the Director of Safety Position or Director of Flight Ops. And then if he's REALLY talented, he be promoted to Chief Operating Officer. These positions have salaries well north of 100k. Also, these positions are selected upon merit, not seniority number.

citation9
04-16-2010, 06:50 PM
As far a promotion goes, if a pilot in talented enough, he will be promoted to the training department. If even more talented, he'll be promoted to the Chief Pilot position. Then the Director of Safety Position or Director of Flight Ops. And then if he's REALLY talented, he be promoted to Chief Operating Officer.

No, No, No, wrong....

If youíre REALLY talented you will become a reality t.v. bachelor and sign a huge contract with ABC then you can go work on your dancing skills. Ha talent.... If youíre actually talented you would wouldn't be working at the airlines!!! By the way you have absolutely no clue what youíre talking about. This industry is VERY much run off of a "good ole boy" network. If you donít know this then you are simply ignorant or still live with your mommy.

out.

squawkoff
04-16-2010, 08:20 PM
No, No, No, wrong....

If youíre REALLY talented you will become a reality t.v. bachelor and sign a huge contract with ABC then you can go work on your dancing skills. Ha talent.... If youíre actually talented you would wouldn't be working at the airlines!!! By the way you have absolutely no clue what youíre talking about. This industry is VERY much run off of a "good ole boy" network. If you donít know this then you are simply ignorant or still live with your mommy.

out.

I have a management theory that I have titled "The Cess Pool Theory of Management." The turds float to the top!. So, if you have management aspirations make sure it's because you can make a positive difference and not because you're talented in the cess pool

Nightsky
04-17-2010, 01:40 AM
I've been out for a couple years now. I had been wanting to get out for a while, and was looking at options, when I went out suddenly for a medical reason. I had been in perfect health before, it was just a freak thing. It was supposed to be a temporary grounding according to my FAA med examiner, and the doc who treated me singed me off as being in perfect health within a few weeks. Well, the FAA really drags their feet, and a few months went by. I got a letter stating I could get a special issuance medical, if I submitted results from several medical tests that met their scrutiny. Thing is, those tests would have been over $10k out of pocket. That's a big chunk of change to me, and didn't guarantee issuance anyway. I'm young and the stress of it was killer. I realized that the older I got, the more that could go wrong medically, and I couldn't imagine going through that with kids to feed and less options. So, I decided that this was the kick in the pants I needed to just leave, as I wanted out anyway.

I told the FAA no, I wouldn't submit the tests. And that was that, no more medical. I had just over 4600 hours, worked at two regionals, and went through one furlough. I knew some people in airport ops, and was able to get hired on within a month. I've been there a couple years now. Easy job, still use my knowledge base, virtually no stress, better bennies, more vacation, pension, stability and a 4 day work week. Plus it was a decent pay raise. It was a godsend. Took up all my old hobbies (this was huge to me, I have a lot of interests I had given up), no more commuting on days off, got to know my friends and family again, and it really makes my wife happy. It felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.

While at the airlines, my life felt extremely out of balance. I wasn't necessarily after huge bucks, I just wanted a comfortable living in pay and quality of life. I felt like what I was giving for what I got in return was very, very lopsided. I had come to dread trips. The day before I'd start actually getting edgy. I didn't want to leave home, leave my wife. I didn't want to live out of a suitcase, sleep in hotel beds, waste hours in a hotel, not be able to get things done with my free time that I could have had I been home. Sure, I flew with some great crews, and we did have good times. But - no matter how good a time I had, I always wished I was able to be doing them with my wife, not some coworkers I had known for a couple days. She had to work full time to make up for my pathetic pay, so it wasn't an option to bring her along. By the time I left, I was actually getting angry about the job. I wasn't one to complain though. In person, I try real hard to be positive, and not complain, and be optimistic. But in reality, I was miserable, but I hid it from coworkers. I didn't want to become the grumpy jerks that I had flown with, and was very conscientious of this. It wouldn't have done me or them any good to be a downer.

Also, one thing that bugged me was that the longer you were a pilot, the more 'painted in a corner' you became. Job mobility is extremely limited as a pilot. If you're a pilot, that's pretty much all you will do. Couple that with the screwed up seniority system that makes you a slave to your position out of fear of starting over on the list, and your options become very limited. Just about every other career out their is portable, and it's easy to move on to another company, move on to better opportunities, and allows much more flexibility. But as pilot, you are glued to your company. So you put up with a monumental amount of BS because you are in effect stuck. There is no making a lateral move at the same pay. I saw all my friends not in aviation doing so much better in life, having spent less money on school, without having to commute or move across country, and with upward mobility. I saw that I chosen the wrong path.

I really feel that the good ol' days are gone forever. There will be a lucky few that really do get into those dream flying positions, but in reality a huge majority of pilots won't. I didn't see anything better coming down the road, in fact every time I thought of my future I saw gloom. I had become miserable in life due to my career. So I knew I had to get out. So along comes this medical problem, and secretly inside I hoped it would ground me forever. Well, in a round about way it did due to my refusal to jump through hoops. It was the best to thing to happen to me.

So now I work on the airfield and am around planes all the time. And yet I don't miss the pilot job one bit. In fact, I see the crews looking haggard, rushing to their hotel vans, complaining about something or other, wondering around on airport appreciation sits, dealing with weather, etc, and it makes me very happy that's all behind me. I did miss it for a couple months. I didn't miss the job, I just missed the flying of the plane. That's the only thing I enjoyed about the job - actually hand flying the plane. And that is such a minute part of it.

Anyway, I don't intend to settle. I'm going to take advantage of the time I now have and flexibility and tuition reimbursement, and I'm knocking out a few prereqs, and will apply to pharmaceutical school this next year. My BS in aviation wasn't a complete waste as I'm using it as a base to build upon. My plan is to get a doctorate, either a PharmD or a Phd in pharmaceutical research, not sure which yet, time will tell. I can't wait to start.

MrBigAir
04-17-2010, 04:48 AM
^ NICE! Great post.

BoilerUP
04-17-2010, 05:19 AM
There is no making a lateral move at the same pay.

Another potential benefit to working in business aviation vs. the airlines...

JoeyMeatballs
04-17-2010, 09:42 AM
I've been out for a couple years now. I had been wanting to get out for a while, and was looking at options, when I went out suddenly for a medical reason. I had been in perfect health before, it was just a freak thing. It was supposed to be a temporary grounding according to my FAA med examiner, and the doc who treated me singed me off as being in perfect health within a few weeks. Well, the FAA really drags their feet, and a few months went by. I got a letter stating I could get a special issuance medical, if I submitted results from several medical tests that met their scrutiny. Thing is, those tests would have been over $10k out of pocket. That's a big chunk of change to me, and didn't guarantee issuance anyway. I'm young and the stress of it was killer. I realized that the older I got, the more that could go wrong medically, and I couldn't imagine going through that with kids to feed and less options. So, I decided that this was the kick in the pants I needed to just leave, as I wanted out anyway.

I told the FAA no, I wouldn't submit the tests. And that was that, no more medical. I had just over 4600 hours, worked at two regionals, and went through one furlough. I knew some people in airport ops, and was able to get hired on within a month. I've been there a couple years now. Easy job, still use my knowledge base, virtually no stress, better bennies, more vacation, pension, stability and a 4 day work week. Plus it was a decent pay raise. It was a godsend. Took up all my old hobbies (this was huge to me, I have a lot of interests I had given up), no more commuting on days off, got to know my friends and family again, and it really makes my wife happy. It felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.

While at the airlines, my life felt extremely out of balance. I wasn't necessarily after huge bucks, I just wanted a comfortable living in pay and quality of life. I felt like what I was giving for what I got in return was very, very lopsided. I had come to dread trips. The day before I'd start actually getting edgy. I didn't want to leave home, leave my wife. I didn't want to live out of a suitcase, sleep in hotel beds, waste hours in a hotel, not be able to get things done with my free time that I could have had I been home. Sure, I flew with some great crews, and we did have good times. But - no matter how good a time I had, I always wished I was able to be doing them with my wife, not some coworkers I had known for a couple days. She had to work full time to make up for my pathetic pay, so it wasn't an option to bring her along. By the time I left, I was actually getting angry about the job. I wasn't one to complain though. In person, I try real hard to be positive, and not complain, and be optimistic. But in reality, I was miserable, but I hid it from coworkers. I didn't want to become the grumpy jerks that I had flown with, and was very conscientious of this. It wouldn't have done me or them any good to be a downer.

Also, one thing that bugged me was that the longer you were a pilot, the more 'painted in a corner' you became. Job mobility is extremely limited as a pilot. If you're a pilot, that's pretty much all you will do. Couple that with the screwed up seniority system that makes you a slave to your position out of fear of starting over on the list, and your options become very limited. Just about every other career out their is portable, and it's easy to move on to another company, move on to better opportunities, and allows much more flexibility. But as pilot, you are glued to your company. So you put up with a monumental amount of BS because you are in effect stuck. There is no making a lateral move at the same pay. I saw all my friends not in aviation doing so much better in life, having spent less money on school, without having to commute or move across country, and with upward mobility. I saw that I chosen the wrong path.

I really feel that the good ol' days are gone forever. There will be a lucky few that really do get into those dream flying positions, but in reality a huge majority of pilots won't. I didn't see anything better coming down the road, in fact every time I thought of my future I saw gloom. I had become miserable in life due to my career. So I knew I had to get out. So along comes this medical problem, and secretly inside I hoped it would ground me forever. Well, in a round about way it did due to my refusal to jump through hoops. It was the best to thing to happen to me.

So now I work on the airfield and am around planes all the time. And yet I don't miss the pilot job one bit. In fact, I see the crews looking haggard, rushing to their hotel vans, complaining about something or other, wondering around on airport appreciation sits, dealing with weather, etc, and it makes me very happy that's all behind me. I did miss it for a couple months. I didn't miss the job, I just missed the flying of the plane. That's the only thing I enjoyed about the job - actually hand flying the plane. And that is such a minute part of it.

Anyway, I don't intend to settle. I'm going to take advantage of the time I now have and flexibility and tuition reimbursement, and I'm knocking out a few prereqs, and will apply to pharmaceutical school this next year. My BS in aviation wasn't a complete waste as I'm using it as a base to build upon. My plan is to get a doctorate, either a PharmD or a Phd in pharmaceutical research, not sure which yet, time will tell. I can't wait to start.

Great post, and I feel the same away the day before going to work, to me there is no worse feeling then being up at 370 on day one or 2 of a multiple leg day, low paying, early wake up 4 day, its ridiculous what we as PROFESSIONAL's put up with

johnso29
04-17-2010, 10:02 AM
Not sure where exactly you got that information, maybe you have an accountant friend maybe it's one of those ridiculous salary tools that claims pilots make what, 60k? Judging by my experience with accountantsI think your numbers are low but... Using your figures it's very possible that those two people get paid the same now.

Now, lets consider a couple things. The FO is gone 300 hours a month, the accountant 160. How many nights did the accountant spend in a hotel last year, the FO spent 200. The FO has probably one week off that he has to bid for (might be more at ASA not sure on your contract), the accountant very likely has 2 weeks of vacation, and most likely has the 10 federal holidays off too, the FO may or may not work every single holiday depending on his relative seniority. So lets see, not sure exactly what ASA's min day off looks like, but probably 12-13 off, lets use 12. The FO then has 144 days off a year before vacation, we'll call it 151 with his 7 days. The accountant has 8 a month guarenteed, so there's 96, he'll get the 10 federal holidays ,106 and 14 days of vacation, 120 days. The FO got 31 days more off, pretty much best case. Sounds not bad, not bad but wait... TAFB was 300 hours a month, the accountant 160... 140 hours a month or 5.8 days more per month.... times 12 months.... well there's another 70 days a year the FO DIDN'T have that the accountant did. FO 81 totals days, Accountant 120. Pilots don't look at the big picture as much as we think, we just want to brag about how much more time we have off, how much better off we have it than other people... well turns out... the math gets pretty fuzzy.

And lets also not forget the DCI shuffle, if Delta decides it hates ASA tomorrow then that FO could be on the street pretty quickly and back to 20-25k a year. You know what will likely happen to the same accountant, he'll leave that company for a raise. And if he excells at his career, he might get a promotion, what about that FO... well sure when his number comes up....

Just another perspective on the same junk.


Your post doesn't hold water, becuase you're taking the best case scenario for the accountant and the worse case scenario for the ASA FO.

DYNASTY HVY
04-18-2010, 04:31 AM
What I see here is a bit of a morale problem in regards to this career field and the effects that it has on pilots .
Why are you giving the powers that be the satisfaction that they made life so difficult for you that you would want to resign ?
I wonder how a pilot morale poll would go in here ?

Learflyer
04-18-2010, 05:42 AM
Great post, and I feel the same away the day before going to work, to me there is no worse feeling then being up at 370 on day one or 2 of a multiple leg day, low paying, early wake up 4 day, its ridiculous what we as PROFESSIONAL's put up with

I was at a fractional for 6 years. 8 days away from home twice per month. I used to get that same uneasy feeling the day before I had to go back to work. Feeling the pressure of having to get things done, and worrying about flying in wx, and ****ty hotels. I was a different person on my last day off. Even though we had tix paid for, I still dreaded the early am airlines going to work, and the late pm airlines coming home.

Although I don't plan on making it a career, I am now pretty happy as a sim/ground instructor and 135 check airman at a sim center. It used to be where the misfits of aviation went to;), but it offers a qol that my fractional (even NJA) couldn't compare to.

tsd685
04-18-2010, 07:03 AM
I just left my position. I was at a frax too and it just wasn't for me. The nights away from home, low pay, same stuff everyone else says. I'm going to a job that should be more exciting too. I never really worried about the weather so much, I was just bored out of my mind, and tired of the customers.

Good luck to those leaving, if you're finding a job to suit your priorities, drive on!

cybourg10
04-18-2010, 02:09 PM
Great post, and I feel the same away the day before going to work, to me there is no worse feeling then being up at 370 on day one or 2 of a multiple leg day, low paying, early wake up 4 day, its ridiculous what we as PROFESSIONAL's put up with

As an XJT EWR/FO it is strange to hear my rep talk like this but I feel the same way. Like most of you I grew up wanting to fly and nothing else, it was my dream to become an airline pilot. Now I can't stand commuting back to EWR on my day off when I just got home 36 hours earlier. I am currently engaged and it is hard enough to leave her for 5 days much less if I had any kids. I have over 900 F/Os ahead of me before I can upgrade and start to accrue the only turbine time that matters for my career advancement. Until then I am stuck with 12 days off and 40k a year, it could be a 9 or 10 year upgrade for me at XJT only to commute back to reserve which I have spent the last 18 months doing and I feel like it aged me at least 5 years. Even though I'll now be a line holder in ORD I'm still looking at min days off with a few non-commutable trips per month.

I have recently been offered a non flying job making three times what I make now, with the opportunity to advance in the company because of hard work, not a seniority number. I can go fly a light twin a couple times a month (VFR only :) ) and get more satisfaction from those flights than I can flying 50 people from ORD-EWR. This has become a thankless job and the pay does not make up for the time away anymore. Our (interim) CEO just said that XJT labor costs are too high after we all took a nearly 7% pay cut in 2008. I just don't see much upside in this career for the majority, yes there will be a few lucky ones that hit the hiring wave just at the right time but for the rest of us it seems we are doomed to multiple furloughs and pay cuts and downgrades. I have too much respect for myself to work 19 days a month away from home for 40k a year while I slowly kill myself with bad food and inconsistent sleep patterns. If I decide to leave it will be a very difficult decision but I could be making 120k at this new job at the age of 24, I don't know if I could make that much at the age of 44 if I stayed in aviation. Of course it isn't all about the money but at some point I would like to have some extra income. It seems from reading what others have said on here that it is tough to leave at first but then that wears off and you realize what a better quality of life is really worth.

JoeyMeatballs
04-18-2010, 05:32 PM
^, I hear ya brotha, however if someone offered me that much money, I would have given XJET my two weeks notice ASAP.

I know it is not very comforting to here your F/O rep basically telling you he is giving, up however I am going to go down fighting :). I am looking forward to the MEC meeting in two weeks and can't wait to talk to management.

Blueskies21
04-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Your post doesn't hold water, becuase you're taking the best case scenario for the accountant and the worse case scenario for the ASA FO.
Which part of my scenario did you consider worst case for the FO? I felt 12 days off is probably average (though I did admit I wasn't aware of ASA current contract, the two regionals I've worked at a middle seniority line holding FO probably could expect 11-13 days off, some months some lines were 15 days off, but I felt that was more an exception than a rule perhaps ASA lines are more days off) I feel like the TAFB for a line holder is going to be somewhere in the 250-300 hour range, so I'll grant you I did use the high range in this case. Even the low range 250 vs 160 is 90 hours additional work for an FO, 3.75 days extra per month.

Which part did you consider best case for the accountant? I feel like two weeks vacation and federal holidays is probably accurate. I would agree that leading up to April 15th, there will be a large percentage of accountants working more than 40 hours but that period really is fairly limited. Not sure if that means my assesment was necessarily best case.

As has been previously discussed, you hit a perfect wave and that's awesome. If you don't hit that perfect wave, then the satisfaction is much lower. A large part of this job is luck, at least for the moment it looks as though the pilot group at Northwest was lucky to get merged into Monster New Delta , had that not happened who knows what the overall career outlook for a NW pilot might be. Of course even my current assesment assumes that the new Delta will be the force to be reckoned with that we currently assume it will be, if not all bets are off.

My whole argument is, and will continue to be, we don't actually gain anything by extoling the virtues of this career to one another. Until we all feel that the sacrifices we make AREN'T actually justified, and can spread that viewpoint, pilots will continue to be abused by management because as far as they see, we just don't seem to get it.

hindsight2020
04-19-2010, 06:03 AM
One of the common denominators between the plight of starving airline pilots and many other disillusioned workers is the concept of optimism-bias.

I've mentioned it before, and several posts in this thread touch on this. People are horribly optimism-biased. Additionally, they throw in an american-specific flavor of it, the "polyanna attitude" concept of success, and what you get is millions of average people disgruntled about not becoming Lebron James, aspiring to be Lebron James nonetheless, rationalizing to others why they are slated to become Lebron James and why said peers probably will not by virtue of not being as special as they are in contrast. There's optimism bias in a nutshell.

When viewed from a labor perspective, what you see is a chronic tendency to adopt the proverbial TV ad "results not typical" outcome as a median outcome. This is fatally flawed obviously. Can you imagine what would happen to the education racket in this country if people were presented with median outcomes as targets to aim for, as opposed to the statistical outliers they present and advertise? Half of the fight is that right there. Problem is you present lack-luster-real-world grounded outcomes and most people would dismiss it as not applicable to their condition because they know better, they got the "right attitude"; there's always X,Y,Z reasons why I will not be a statistic. That's what the American flavor of cultural "rugged individualism" gets you. Millions of "man is an island" deluded workers all thinking that 1) everybody can be a statistical outlier at the same time and 2) they are special ergo they will become statistical outliers.

Outside the hobby crowd, nobody got into the professions for perma-regional FO QOL and payscales. Nobody. And yet there they are. The optimism-biased, by the nature of their illness do not recognize the concept of timing-favored or condition-favored, which are condition inequities (life's not fair after all) and which we colloquially know as 'luck'. The folks who got lucky will obviously espouse that the ad pitched in college worked for them, which reinforces the disease for others.

Another element derived from a population-wide spread of optimism-bias is that we inject that disease into our personal and professional relationships, without giving it so much as a cursory thought. Thence, it is socially frowned upon to be a "downer". We even assign a special pejorative quality to it, asserting that being a downer is a self-fulfilling prophecy, yet the only evidence we can put forth to support such claim is that we simply are discomforted by the thought of such outcome happening to people who we internally recognize as being no different than ourselves. Cast him a witch before I concede I'm just like him, et al. There's millions of shortened expectations in this country from all socio-economic and education attainment classes, and nobody is willing to recognize the validity of the median outcome. But you get one Eminem, one 'Bron James, one Tiger Woods on TV, and all of a sudden everybody can be widebody CA with 29 days off and primo QOL and pay, and your failure to attain such condition always has to do with your "wrong attitude" and nothing to do with a cursory comprehension of first grade math logic criterion and a speck of self-awareness about the human condition! . W.T.^!#%.

The fact that flying as an activity is neat-o simply aggravates the labor landscape of the profession, whereas other college-degreed disillusioned laborers only have to contend with the objective economic disparity between what they shot for and what they got to show for it, without having to contend with such externalities as the idea of sticking to an activity that starves you, simply because it's just so darn neat-o to do.

The reason I love this thread is that it grounds people into a level of conscience that accurately reflects the concepts of timing, inherent inequity in life, labor elasticity, scarcity of labor and the price value that differing levels of labor scarcity provide. It centers the discussion on the "results WILL be typical" ad, rather than the "results not typical" most take as their benchmark for comparison. It might just be of medical value, this thread.

As to the winner winner chicken dinner outliers, they'll never empathize, they're inherently unable to understand these realities as it is not in their working construct. But fools are those who take life advice from the optimism-biased. Watch some of these Lebron James type people, they'll be the first ones to assert that outside their unquestioned nominal work ethic, they possessed life inequities that favored their condition. Most are humble about it, some are egotistical. A lot can be learned from watching your heroes tell you their result is NOT typical. Of course that doesn't sell Nike shoes, so many won't tell you that. About the only thing that's unique amongst us is our conscience. Get in tune with it, you might be better off in the end for it. We are yoked to an alter-world of exceedingly unrealistic expectations, it doesn't have to be that way. Free yourself from that optimism-bias.

ThrustMonkey
04-19-2010, 06:36 AM
One of the common denominators between the plight of starving airline pilots and many other disillusioned workers is the concept of optimism-bias.

I've mentioned it before, and several posts in this thread touch on this. People are horribly optimism-biased. Additionally, they throw in an american-specific flavor of it, the "polyanna attitude" concept of success, and what you get is millions of average people disgruntled about not becoming Lebron James, aspiring to be Lebron James nonetheless, rationalizing to others why they are slated to become Lebron James and why said peers probably will not by virtue of not being as special as they are in contrast. There's optimism bias in a nutshell.

When viewed from a labor perspective, what you see is a chronic tendency to adopt the proverbial TV ad "results not typical" outcome as a median outcome. This is fatally flawed obviously. Can you imagine what would happen to the education racket in this country if people were presented with median outcomes as targets to aim for, as opposed to the statistical outliers they present and advertise? Half of the fight is that right there. Problem is you present lack-luster-real-world grounded outcomes and most people would dismiss it as not applicable to their condition because they know better, they got the "right attitude"; there's always X,Y,Z reasons why I will not be a statistic. That's what the American flavor of cultural "rugged individualism" gets you. Millions of "man is an island" deluded workers all thinking that 1) everybody can be a statistical outlier at the same time and 2) they are special ergo they will become statistical outliers.

Outside the hobby crowd, nobody got into the professions for perma-regional FO QOL and payscales. Nobody. And yet there they are. The optimism-biased, by the nature of their illness do not recognize the concept of timing-favored or condition-favored, which are condition inequities (life's not fair after all) and which we colloquially know as 'luck'. The folks who got lucky will obviously espouse that the ad pitched in college worked for them, which reinforces the disease for others.

Another element derived from a population-wide spread of optimism-bias is that we inject that disease into our personal and professional relationships, without giving it so much as a cursory thought. Thence, it is socially frowned upon to be a "downer". We even assign a special pejorative quality to it, asserting that being a downer is a self-fulfilling prophecy, yet the only evidence we can put forth to support such claim is that we simply are discomforted by the thought of such outcome happening to people who we internally recognize as being no different than ourselves. Cast him a witch before I concede I'm just like him, et al. There's millions of shortened expectations in this country from all socio-economic and education attainment classes, and nobody is willing to recognize the validity of the median outcome. But you get one Eminem, one 'Bron James, one Tiger Woods on TV, and all of a sudden everybody can be widebody CA with 29 days off and primo QOL and pay, and your failure to attain such condition always has to do with your "wrong attitude" and nothing to do with a cursory comprehension of first grade math logic criterion and a speck of self-awareness about the human condition! . W.T.^!#%.

The fact that flying as an activity is neat-o simply aggravates the labor landscape of the profession, whereas other college-degreed disillusioned laborers only have to contend with the objective economic disparity between what they shot for and what they got to show for it, without having to contend with such externalities as the idea of sticking to an activity that starves you, simply because it's just so darn neat-o to do.

The reason I love this thread is that it grounds people into a level of conscience that accurately reflects the concepts of timing, inherent inequity in life, labor elasticity, scarcity of labor and the price value that differing levels of labor scarcity provide. It centers the discussion on the "results WILL be typical" ad, rather than the "results not typical" most take as their benchmark for comparison. It might just be of medical value, this thread.

As to the winner winner chicken dinner outliers, they'll never empathize, they're inherently unable to understand these realities as it is not in their working construct. But fools are those who take life advice from the optimism-biased. Watch some of these Lebron James type people, they'll be the first ones to assert that outside their unquestioned nominal work ethic, they possessed life inequities that favored their condition. Most are humble about it, some are egotistical. A lot can be learned from watching your heroes tell you their result is NOT typical. Of course that doesn't sell Nike shoes, so many won't tell you that. About the only thing that's unique amongst us is our conscience. Get in tune with it, you might be better off in the end for it. We are yoked to an alter-world of exceedingly unrealistic expectations, it doesn't have to be that way. Free yourself from that optimism-bias.

Sure there are those in increasing numbers in this country with the entitlement mentality and the disillusionment that a career like 'Bron, Woods or Warren Buffett are out there waiting in the wings. To label the current stock of regional pilots who are fed up with massively subpar contracts as optimism-biased looking for rock star status is deluded at best. Your explaination borders on saying "just sit back, accept your lot in life (working under pathetically inadequate pay and QOL) and don't think you are any more special than anyone else, you deserve nothing more than what you have". Thats a defeatist mentality and will hasten the further decline of any semblance of a tolerable QOL at any airline. Managements dream essay I say.

The disgruntled in this thread may have been duped at the pilot mills, may not have done their homework as to the industry but to say that they don't deserve higher pay and QOL is absurd. I think we can all agree these are unprecedented times at the regional level, times that NOBODY could have predicted even 5 years ago. They are not looking to be the next reality show star showered with millions of dollars, gifts and incentives......no, what all of us want is a fair wage and a life that doesn't resemble servitude. To accept and settle for anything less would be cheapening the role of a pilot. Its been cheapened long enough and I think we've had it with the constant downward pressure and are just saying to management enough is enough. You've had in your way for far too long and its about time you begin to suffer the consequences of your greed, selfishness and tyranny.

BoilerUP
04-19-2010, 06:39 AM
Can we cut out the whole "indentured servitude" hyperbole? PLEASE?

JoeyMeatballs
04-19-2010, 08:33 AM
One of the common denominators between the plight of starving airline pilots and many other disillusioned workers is the concept of optimism-bias.

I've mentioned it before, and several posts in this thread touch on this. People are horribly optimism-biased. Additionally, they throw in an american-specific flavor of it, the "polyanna attitude" concept of success, and what you get is millions of average people disgruntled about not becoming Lebron James, aspiring to be Lebron James nonetheless, rationalizing to others why they are slated to become Lebron James and why said peers probably will not by virtue of not being as special as they are in contrast. There's optimism bias in a nutshell.

When viewed from a labor perspective, what you see is a chronic tendency to adopt the proverbial TV ad "results not typical" outcome as a median outcome. This is fatally flawed obviously. Can you imagine what would happen to the education racket in this country if people were presented with median outcomes as targets to aim for, as opposed to the statistical outliers they present and advertise? Half of the fight is that right there. Problem is you present lack-luster-real-world grounded outcomes and most people would dismiss it as not applicable to their condition because they know better, they got the "right attitude"; there's always X,Y,Z reasons why I will not be a statistic. That's what the American flavor of cultural "rugged individualism" gets you. Millions of "man is an island" deluded workers all thinking that 1) everybody can be a statistical outlier at the same time and 2) they are special ergo they will become statistical outliers.

Outside the hobby crowd, nobody got into the professions for perma-regional FO QOL and payscales. Nobody. And yet there they are. The optimism-biased, by the nature of their illness do not recognize the concept of timing-favored or condition-favored, which are condition inequities (life's not fair after all) and which we colloquially know as 'luck'. The folks who got lucky will obviously espouse that the ad pitched in college worked for them, which reinforces the disease for others.

Another element derived from a population-wide spread of optimism-bias is that we inject that disease into our personal and professional relationships, without giving it so much as a cursory thought. Thence, it is socially frowned upon to be a "downer". We even assign a special pejorative quality to it, asserting that being a downer is a self-fulfilling prophecy, yet the only evidence we can put forth to support such claim is that we simply are discomforted by the thought of such outcome happening to people who we internally recognize as being no different than ourselves. Cast him a witch before I concede I'm just like him, et al. There's millions of shortened expectations in this country from all socio-economic and education attainment classes, and nobody is willing to recognize the validity of the median outcome. But you get one Eminem, one 'Bron James, one Tiger Woods on TV, and all of a sudden everybody can be widebody CA with 29 days off and primo QOL and pay, and your failure to attain such condition always has to do with your "wrong attitude" and nothing to do with a cursory comprehension of first grade math logic criterion and a speck of self-awareness about the human condition! . W.T.^!#%.

The fact that flying as an activity is neat-o simply aggravates the labor landscape of the profession, whereas other college-degreed disillusioned laborers only have to contend with the objective economic disparity between what they shot for and what they got to show for it, without having to contend with such externalities as the idea of sticking to an activity that starves you, simply because it's just so darn neat-o to do.

The reason I love this thread is that it grounds people into a level of conscience that accurately reflects the concepts of timing, inherent inequity in life, labor elasticity, scarcity of labor and the price value that differing levels of labor scarcity provide. It centers the discussion on the "results WILL be typical" ad, rather than the "results not typical" most take as their benchmark for comparison. It might just be of medical value, this thread.

As to the winner winner chicken dinner outliers, they'll never empathize, they're inherently unable to understand these realities as it is not in their working construct. But fools are those who take life advice from the optimism-biased. Watch some of these Lebron James type people, they'll be the first ones to assert that outside their unquestioned nominal work ethic, they possessed life inequities that favored their condition. Most are humble about it, some are egotistical. A lot can be learned from watching your heroes tell you their result is NOT typical. Of course that doesn't sell Nike shoes, so many won't tell you that. About the only thing that's unique amongst us is our conscience. Get in tune with it, you might be better off in the end for it. We are yoked to an alter-world of exceedingly unrealistic expectations, it doesn't have to be that way. Free yourself from that optimism-bias.


Outliers...............yea I read that book too ;)

JoeyMeatballs
04-19-2010, 08:34 AM
Can we cut out the whole "indentured servitude" hyperbole? PLEASE?


only if you tell us why?

tomgoodman
04-19-2010, 12:40 PM
One of the common denominators between the plight of starving airline pilots and many other disillusioned workers is the concept of optimism-bias...
Can you imagine what would happen to the education racket in this country if people were presented with median outcomes as targets to aim for, as opposed to the statistical outliers they present and advertise?...
We are yoked to an alter-world of exceedingly unrealistic expectations, it doesn't have to be that way. Free yourself from that optimism-bias.

I think that few people achieve exactly what they aim for and very few achieve more than they aim for, no matter where the target is set. Therefore, if you aim for the current median, you'll almost certainly end up in the bottom half -- equally disappointed but with less in your pocket. :(
Only by aiming for complete failure can you avoid all disappointment.

Blueskies21
04-19-2010, 06:35 PM
One of the common denominators between the plight of starving airline pilots and many other disillusioned workers is the concept of optimism-bias.

But you get one Eminem, one 'Bron James, one Tiger Woods on TV, and all of a sudden everybody can be widebody CA with 29 days off and primo QOL and pay, and your failure to attain such condition always has to do with your "wrong attitude" and nothing to do with a cursory comprehension of first grade math logic criterion and a speck of self-awareness about the human condition! . W.T.^!#%.

Free yourself from that optimism-bias.
Two things
1) What do you do for your side job? Psychologist?
2) My reading of your post is probably colored by my personal opinion, but I think your point is similar to mine.... We're not doing anyone any favors by expounding what an awesome lifestyle we "will" get; Widebody captain with X number of days off for (insert huge dollar figure here).. I would argue that A) those jobs no longer exist B) There's a lot of things that need to go right for you ever to get that.... How about the Pan Am Fo's that were getting ready to upgrade when their Airline disappeared..... Did those guys get to that awesome job? or did they get to go to the bottom somewhere else thru essentially bad luck.

de727ups
04-19-2010, 06:55 PM
"Widebody captain with X number of days off for (insert huge dollar figure here).. I would argue that A) those jobs no longer exist"

They do exist.

"B) There's a lot of things that need to go right for you ever to get that...."

No argument there...

Blueskies21
04-20-2010, 05:39 PM
"Widebody captain with X number of days off for (insert huge dollar figure here).. I would argue that A) those jobs no longer exist"

They do exist.

"B) There's a lot of things that need to go right for you ever to get that...."

No argument there...

I guess I should have been more specific on A. If the Claim is 300k for 20 days off or whatever huge exaggeration you typically hear, also I realize that UPS and Fedex may currently be exceptions however as you agreed many things have to go right for that to occur. Aviation is much more about finding the next best thing than it is about finding the best thing going now... I'm not aware of your personal UPS history but it is my understanding that cargo companies like UPS and Fedex weren't very highly prized jobs 20-30 years ago at the time a current widebody captain would have started his career there.
I know you can't convince a young pilot of anything, I understand that, I just feel like a lot of these things really need to be discussed so that there isn't an unrealistic expectation. Who knows what the airline industry will look like in another 20 years.. will there even be any mainline domestic? Will the current players still be around? Will SWA, Fedex, UPS still be coveted jobs? I don't know the answer to any of those questions. The current seniority system does not allow you to choose incorrectly. Even the accountants at Enron probably found other jobs with similar pay... try talking to any number of guys who's career airline folded.

SkyHigh
04-21-2010, 08:33 AM
I have been posting on this forum for years now. Over that time I have seen the tide of argument switch from old fashioned scab and LCC hatred to the question of if a career is even worth it anymore at any level. I am finding it difficult to post these days since others now frequently beat me to the punch. In the past I was usually the lone gunman standing out against the majority now I am just another voice in the crowd.

I have been out of aviation for most of a decade and I still think about flying everyday. Recently I passed the 20 year mark of when I quit smoking and those urges have not left yet either. The pain of unfulfilled desires is just something you have to learn how to live with as we get older. Not everything we want to do in life is good for us. The mature thing often is to turn your back. My family and I enjoy a much better quality of life now, but I know that the disappointment of my flying dream probably will never go away completely.

In the movie "The Men Who Stare at Goats" the concept of "Optimum Trajectory" is mentioned. It means that we all have a path to follow that offers the least resistance for the most ground gained. The optimum path usually has nothing to do with what our desires are. For most of us aviation falls outside of our optimum trajectory. A better plan might be to find what naturally fits out needs and lives and follow that in spite of what our urges are.

Skyhigh


"Fools are those who take life advice from the optimism-biased." Hindsight 20/20

JoeyMeatballs
04-21-2010, 11:57 AM
^ well Sky.............I am heeding your advice and getting the hell out :). Even if I got hired by a major tomorrow I really don't think it would make me that happy........

SkyHigh
04-22-2010, 06:44 AM
I think that a lot of us got suckered into this career by listening to our fathers tell us to "do what you love and you will never spend a day at work". We took it literally to mean that we should pick a profession that was perceived as being fun. The problem is that anything will become boring and drudgery over time.

A better logic was told to me by a roofer I know. He spends his days in the hot sun on steep roofs but is as happy as can be. When I asked him how he could be so satisfied and happy going to work on nasty roofs all day he told me that the secret was to "love what you do".

He went on to explain that after doing any boring job for at least three years your body becomes conditioned to the hardships, your hands to the labor and your mind to the peaceful harmony of repetitive work. After three years you hit the sweet spot and can not wait to get back onto that roof.

I am not saying to become a roofer but when you find a new profession remember that it will take at least three years to reach the point where you can learn to love whatever it is that you do. Another reason that my friend enjoys going to work is that he is his own boss and can make $1000 cash after a long day of roofing. Jobs that pay well for what you do are easier to love as well.

Skyhigh

JoeyMeatballs
04-22-2010, 07:11 AM
^ I have been doing this for 5 years and can't stomach it anymore, the first few years were what i loved the most, now its just BS

johnso29
04-22-2010, 07:32 AM
I think that a lot of us got suckered into this career by listening to our fathers tell us to "do what you love and you will never spend a day at work". We took it literally to mean that we should pick a profession that was perceived as being fun. The problem is that anything will become boring and drudgery over time.

A better logic was told to me by a roofer I know. He spends his days in the hot sun on steep roofs but is as happy as can be. When I asked him how he could be so satisfied and happy going to work on nasty roofs all day he told me that the secret was to "love what you do".

He went on to explain that after doing any boring job for at least three years your body becomes conditioned to the hardships, your hands to the labor and your mind to the peaceful harmony of repetitive work. After three years you hit the sweet spot and can not wait to get back onto that roof.

I am not saying to become a roofer but when you find a new profession remember that it will take at least three years to reach the point where you can learn to love whatever it is that you do. Another reason that my friend enjoys going to work is that he is his own boss and can make $1000 cash after a long day of roofing. Jobs that pay well for what you do are easier to love as well.

Skyhigh


How's your son Sky??? I hope he is doing better.

SkyHigh
04-22-2010, 07:34 AM
How's your son Sky??? I hope he is doing better.

He is doing well and has completely recovered. Thanks for asking. It was a very scary thing to go through as parents and we are very thankful at the outcome.

Skyhigh

johnso29
04-23-2010, 06:14 PM
He is doing well and has completely recovered. Thanks for asking. It was a very scary thing to go through as parents and we are very thankful at the outcome.

Skyhigh

Happy to hear!:) I'm sure it was terrifying. Awesome that he is fully recovered. :)

bryris
04-29-2010, 06:38 PM
I haven't posted on this board in a while now. I guess this is a sign that I've moved on mentally. I've been done with my CPA cert now for 2 months. I am looking for a CPA job while wrapping up the last full time flight student I'll likely ever do.

I wouldn't trade my 18 months of regional airline flying for much anything. The experience and the adventure was worth its weight in gold. But this attitude is only appreciated with the knowledge that it was a finite chapter in my life. An entire career of it would have made me MISERABLE and having not done it would have made me always wonder "What if?"

I think things happen for a reason - fate, if you will. I look back fondly on the experience - I flew a jet for just over 1,000 hours! But, when all hell broke loose, I made the tough decision and made like a hockey puck and really haven't looked back since.

I'm flying fairly regularly on the side right now as a part time CFI. But I'll admit, even that has lost its luster. I look forward to staying on the ground more than I do flying these days and I welcome the change in outlook. I've spent my whole life longing to be in the air and its torn me up and made me unhappy more than its done the opposite.

I'll never give up flying, but I think for the first time ever, I've finally been able to appreciate what it is and more importantly, what it ISN'T and can finally hold it in the proper light - as merely one of my many interests in life.

Dan64456
04-29-2010, 07:14 PM
I haven't posted on this board in a while now. I guess this is a sign that I've moved on mentally. I've been done with my CPA cert now for 2 months. I am looking for a CPA job while wrapping up the last full time flight student I'll likely ever do.

I wouldn't trade my 18 months of regional airline flying for much anything. The experience and the adventure was worth its weight in gold. But this attitude is only appreciated with the knowledge that it was a finite chapter in my life. An entire career of it would have made me MISERABLE and having not done it would have made me always wonder "What if?"

I think things happen for a reason - fate, if you will. I look back fondly on the experience - I flew a jet for just over 1,000 hours! But, when all hell broke loose, I made the tough decision and made like a hockey puck and really haven't looked back since.

I'm flying fairly regularly on the side right now as a part time CFI. But I'll admit, even that has lost its luster. I look forward to staying on the ground more than I do flying these days and I welcome the change in outlook. I've spent my whole life longing to be in the air and its torn me up and made me unhappy more than its done the opposite.

I'll never give up flying, but I think for the first time ever, I've finally been able to appreciate what it is and more importantly, what it ISN'T and can finally hold it in the proper light - as merely one of my many interests in life.

Hey Byris, how are you? good to see you still check once in a while...
I know exactly what you mean. Although I never made it to a Regional, I just realized how much I have given up to 'prepare' myself to get into this career. I sold my 8cyl manual mustang that I worked my entire life for... For a front wheel drive altima automatic in preparation a while back. Talk about slug. There was even a period of time where I stopped enjoying hanging out with my friends or having a simple drink at the bar because I wanted to be flying. All of that stuff is coming back to me this year, and you know what, it feels great. I was so hell bent on trying to keep myself debt and responsibility free that I loss sight on what really matters in this life... Friends, Family, and simpler things to enjoy. Driving the mustang around some nice back roads on a warm summer night is almost as enjoyable as taking a Cessna out, and it doesn't cost you 110 per hour to operate either. I mean some guys probably got a good schedule, make decent captain pay and went through the bad times while still young, and probably get some decent days off, but now with the recession, it's so much harder to get in that position, if even a lower one. And with the endless increasing scrutiny and knee jerk laws and reactions pilots are being punished with for a 1 in a zillion incident? I feel stressed out FOR them. I am beginning to enjoy the ground as well, not so much the cubicle, but the fact that I can stop worrying about not spending the money I was going to use for flight training, and actually enjoy at least some fruits of my tiresome labor. And perhaps pick up a real car again soon =) Maybe some day when I finish my degree (which takes alot of energy out of me) I will find some time and money for flying again, and maybe 10 yrs from now by some miracle it will be an OK career again? But I'm done giving up my mid 20's waiting for something that is beyond my control. Thanks for filling us in. I have always enjoyed hearing what you have to say.

Sky--- I didn't know anything about your son, but I'm glad he's recovered as well, and I'm sorry for him, you and your family for whatever you had to go through. Cheers.

SkyHigh
04-30-2010, 07:01 AM
Thanks Dan !! Our son is much better now and is back to trying to destroy the remote control and spill my diet coke.

I wish you lived closer. We could go and fly my cessna 150 !!

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-30-2010, 07:01 AM
Bryris,

Buy a cessna 150 !!

Skyhigh

skidoomike
05-08-2010, 01:41 PM
Everybody at Embry-Riddle, Purdue and UND - pay attention to what these guys are saying!! Read it again and again. Then, if you're still not understanding that this industry is broken, ask one of your profs to explain it to you. Make certain to post his/her response on youtube, so as to entertain the rest of us.

We all need to do an Airline Pilot Reality Tour to these schools. I'd love to hear what they're telling these poor kids. They fed me all the Kool-Aid I could drink...and that was during the boom days!

Then again, maybe some of you want to be 30 years old - spending time between your mom's place and a flea infested crash pad with 15 strangers - making $19,000/year. But that shortage you keep on hearing about might just be around the corner. Hang in there. You're only wasting your time, which we all know is unlimited.
Just talked to some poor instructor who spent $200,000 dollars for a four year degree, commercial multi and CFII at Embry Robble University. They promised him the world and gave him nothing as far as a job placement. This poor kid is mad, understandibly. I thought I had it bad spending $30K on my ratings. Now I do not feel so bad. The good news is that he told me that he got a class date for ATC school. Good for him.

KiloAlpha
05-31-2010, 05:15 AM
First time caller, long time listener..

I've been looking to get out for about 6 months now, but just can't seem to find that replacement job/career. As I'm heading to my annual recurrent ground and PC, I can't help but feel indifferent whether I pass or fail. Failure would provide the kick in the butt I need to get moving.

I have B.S. in Management that I'm discovering is nearly useless. So I kick around many possibilities in my head. I have a connection a large financial institution (PNC) that may be able to get some sort of entry-level job. I could go back to school for something; thinking engineering, pharmacy, or something else in the medical field.. PA maybe.

I also have some money saved up that I could put into a business. My friend has GM'd a pizza shop for 10+ years and is looking at opening up his own shop or franchised shop.

I'm finding it difficult to get enthused about a single prospect, but once (or if ever) I find that prospect... I'M OUT !

Cubdriver
05-31-2010, 06:54 AM
Think about aerospace engineering. It's a bit on the tough side as far as degrees are concerned, lots of all-nighters, but it enables you to make good money, get home at night, work around, in, and on airplanes, and even get to travel quite a bit. Ideal job in my opinion. Got to have good math aptitude, willingness to stick it out for a year more than for most other degrees, and the economy still affects engineers just as it does all the other fields, but I still highly recommend it even after having been laid off from one position that I had. The other good thing about an AE degree is it is basically just an ME (mechanical engineering) degree with a slightly different twist, so if you get it you have access to both job types, ME and AE. AE's are some of the highest paid engineers in the business also, just below petroleum engineers. Right now a lot of AE's are out on the street, but we are also in a recession and that will change by the time you obtain your degree.

US BLS link on engineers (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm)

poor pilot
05-31-2010, 08:02 PM
^ well Sky.............I am heeding your advice and getting the hell out :). Even if I got hired by a major tomorrow I really don't think it would make me that happy........

ha i was thinking the same thing.

MeLu
06-01-2010, 01:28 AM
One must know what ones want. If a person is two years on a street or wants to change a career then must know how. Or during this time a time of sitting a best way is to go the pilot school again belonging to a major airlines. Instead of waiting for nothing. My aunt who was a pilot had opened a medical store and had to pay 35 k per month for renting in Europe. And her husband had both enough of flying and are doing just great just used their other degrees and knowledge to make a society happy. MUST KNOW WHAT ONES WANT. JUst lets the people do whatever makes them happy. Melu

TwoDogs
07-18-2010, 08:50 AM
There is nothing to distinguish competing airlines from each other, uniforms, paint schemes, "service" or lack thereof does not really differentiate us in the eyes of the flying public. Simply put, the consumer wants the cheapest flight for their day of travel. While our companies have many cost factors to consider, the only one they truly have any control over is our labor rates, we are competing against each other, sort of like Walmart, battling, Walmart, hence commoditization. So if you think it is going to get better in terms of pay rates and work rules think again. Granted there will be some changes but nothing of great significance, because we are all competing at the bottom rung. Will Walmart raise prices to pay their employees more and give them better benefits and if they do will it be significant or marginal? Exactly, if and when given, marginal. Having suffered a 40% pay cut, I know those pay rates are gone forever--add inflation--they are from another galaxy.


If one could talk with the Pan Am and Eastern Airline pilots who were number one on their respective seniority list they would offer that seniority or longevity of your airline does not mean squat. The resulting angst over an imploded flying career is understandable, but not surprising, so there comes a point when one must pull the trigger and head out on a new vector, for consistently rehashing your failed career without accepting your responsibility for pursuing this career means you are prone to make the same mistakes in your next career move. Differentiate yourself, find other interests and pursue them because you like doing them but by all means---press on. That being said, I do think that once the pilot community starts hitting age 65, then we will have some movement---hopefully.

As for some pilots who run businesses on the side, good for them, with a 95% failure rate within the first five years for businesses, I sincerely respect those who take on the challenge and I see the wisdom of keeping one's bird in hand while doing something else. Over the years I have flown with pilots who were extremely successful, were these pilots busy, you bet, did they complain, no, they still excelled in the cockpit. Some practiced law (yes, two people I know of went to law school while on reserve), taught classes, ran a software development company, owned McD franchises, or a chain of True Value stores---they guy owned his own brand new PC-12!!! A buddy of mine simply quit and started his own alternative energy company with great success. As for those who simply want to hang out and not work on their days off, good for them as well, each person doing what works for them is always a good thing. Best of luck to those who depart the fix.

SkyHigh
07-18-2010, 11:16 AM
There is nothing to distinguish competing airlines from each other, uniforms, paint schemes, "service" or lack thereof does not really differentiate us in the eyes of the flying public. Simply put, the consumer wants the cheapest flight for their day of travel. While our companies have many cost factors to consider, the only one they truly have any control over is our labor rates, we are competing against each other, sort of like Walmart, battling, Walmart, hence commoditization. So if you think it is going to get better in terms of pay rates and work rules think again. Granted there will be some changes but nothing of great significance, because we are all competing at the bottom rung. Will Walmart raise prices to pay their employees more and give them better benefits and if they do will it be significant or marginal? Exactly, if and when given, marginal. Having suffered a 40% pay cut, I know those pay rates are gone forever--add inflation--they are from another galaxy.


If one could talk with the Pan Am and Eastern Airline pilots who were number one on their respective seniority list they would offer that seniority or longevity of your airline does not mean squat. The resulting angst over an imploded flying career is understandable, but not surprising, so there comes a point when one must pull the trigger and head out on a new vector, for consistently rehashing your failed career without accepting your responsibility for pursuing this career means you are prone to make the same mistakes in your next career move. Differentiate yourself, find other interests and pursue them because you like doing them but by all means---press on. That being said, I do think that once the pilot community starts hitting age 65, then we will have some movement---hopefully.

As for some pilots who run businesses on the side, good for them, with a 95% failure rate within the first five years for businesses, I sincerely respect those who take on the challenge and I see the wisdom of keeping one's bird in hand while doing something else. Over the years I have flown with pilots who were extremely successful, were these pilots busy, you bet, did they complain, no, they still excelled in the cockpit. Some practiced law (yes, two people I know of went to law school while on reserve), taught classes, ran a software development company, owned McD franchises, or a chain of True Value stores---they guy owned his own brand new PC-12!!! A buddy of mine simply quit and started his own alternative energy company with great success. As for those who simply want to hang out and not work on their days off, good for them as well, each person doing what works for them is always a good thing. Best of luck to those who depart the fix.

Nicely done.

Skyhigh

Cubdriver
07-18-2010, 06:02 PM
One must know what ones want. If a person is two years on a street or wants to change a career then must know how. Or during this time a time of sitting a best way is to go the pilot school again belonging to a major airlines. Instead of waiting for nothing. My aunt who was a pilot had opened a medical store and had to pay 35 k per month for renting in Europe. And her husband had both enough of flying and are doing just great just used their other degrees and knowledge to make a society happy. MUST KNOW WHAT ONES WANT. JUst lets the people do whatever makes them happy. Melu

Very true. Very true. Or could be "True dat"... to quote one flying buddy.

SkyHigh
07-18-2010, 11:37 PM
One must know what ones want. If a person is two years on a street or wants to change a career then must know how. Or during this time a time of sitting a best way is to go the pilot school again belonging to a major airlines. Instead of waiting for nothing. My aunt who was a pilot had opened a medical store and had to pay 35 k per month for renting in Europe. And her husband had both enough of flying and are doing just great just used their other degrees and knowledge to make a society happy. MUST KNOW WHAT ONES WANT. JUst lets the people do whatever makes them happy. Melu

I want to be a well paid and respected airline captain who has most of the month off.

We all know what we want. Getting it is the hard part. ;)

Skyhigh

flywithjohn
10-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Am I the only one who likes being away from home, enjoys being at the airport, loves the idea of a hotel and likes to be alone? The pay could be better though.

Dan64456
10-04-2010, 09:39 AM
Am I the only one who likes being away from home, enjoys being at the airport, loves the idea of a hotel and likes to be alone? The pay could be better though.

Don't know if this is sarcasm, but sounds like it could be a nice break from everything at home... Drama - Chores - Monotony.. After all, don't people do this exact thing on their meager 2 weeks vacation per year? Granted it's not in Newark, NJ, but at least you don't have to make the bed in the morning or cook / clean... There has got to be some positive to it. Truck drivers have to sleep in the truck! Some people sit in traffic for 2.5 hours to and from work on a daily basis... Yet their wives are still *****ing that they never do anything around the house.

greaper007
10-08-2010, 07:06 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a former Colgan Captain current stay at home dad. I've been out of the cockpit for 17 months now. I'm infinity more happy changing diapers and dealing with playground politics than doing 16 hour duty days and dodging thunder storms. YMMV, but once I had son I couldn't stand being away from home for one day. Add to that the fact that my wife made twice as much as me and the majority of my paycheck was going to pay for daycare. I started to wonder, what's the point?

Here's the rub, I figure I have 4-5 years left at home and I have no idea what I'll do after that. Also, even with my wife's salary money is still kind of tight every month. Though it's only about a $500 difference once you factor in things like commuting costs, parking, uniforms, crash pads, daycare. Then add that to the extra money she was spending on things like eating out, oil changes, home repairs that she couldn't do when I was on the road.

Right now I have a few ideas kicking around in my head but I don't really have a definite projection. I have an ATP, CFII MEI about 3,000 hours and a BA in History. The logical choice for someone with liberal arts degree is Law School, and I think I'd enjoy that. But the law field has the same problems that the airlines do. Lots of candidates, too few jobs. So, who has some ideas? Is there anyone here with a background that's similar to mine that's successfully made the jump to a new field?

SkyHigh
10-08-2010, 07:17 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a former Colgan Captain current stay at home dad. I've been out of the cockpit for 17 months now. I'm infinity more happy changing diapers and dealing with playground politics than doing 16 hour duty days and dodging thunder storms. YMMV, but once I had son I couldn't stand being away from home for one day. Add to that the fact that my wife made twice as much as me and the majority of my paycheck was going to pay for daycare. I started to wonder, what's the point?

Here's the rub, I figure I have 4-5 years left at home and I have no idea what I'll do after that. Also, even with my wife's salary money is still kind of tight every month. Though it's only about a $500 difference once you factor in things like commuting costs, parking, uniforms, crash pads, daycare. Then add that to the extra money she was spending on things like eating out, oil changes, home repairs that she couldn't do when I was on the road.

Right now I have a few ideas kicking around in my head but I don't really have a definite projection. I have an ATP, CFII MEI about 3,000 hours and a BA in History. The logical choice for someone with liberal arts degree is Law School, and I think I'd enjoy that. But the law field has the same problems that the airlines do. Lots of candidates, too few jobs. So, who has some ideas? Is there anyone here with a background that's similar to mine that's successfully made the jump to a new field?

In my experience pilots really have the potential to do just about anything. If a guy is able to jump through all the hoops it takes to make it to the left seat of an airliner then think of the potential if you can get all that ability pointed into a more beneficial direction.

I would take a survey all of the jobs you have had and skills you currently posses. Then form a list of jobs you could do regardless of desire, income or interest. Eventually some stand outs will begin to float to the top. Usually it will not be things that you have ever seen yourself as doing for a career.

Pilots tend to think like kids and initially are only are interested in jobs that seem fun. It is that same kind of thinking that lead us down the ill fated path as pilots in the first place. Try to force out all those instincts and develop a mature line of thought that is based upon income, time at home and career potential.

I would consider adding police, small business ownership and the fire department to your list. Talk to all your friends and family about their careers. You have got the time. Read some books on the subject.


Skyhigh

Dan64456
10-08-2010, 09:04 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a former Colgan Captain current stay at home dad. I've been out of the cockpit for 17 months now. I'm infinity more happy changing diapers and dealing with playground politics than doing 16 hour duty days and dodging thunder storms. YMMV, but once I had son I couldn't stand being away from home for one day. Add to that the fact that my wife made twice as much as me and the majority of my paycheck was going to pay for daycare. I started to wonder, what's the point?

Here's the rub, I figure I have 4-5 years left at home and I have no idea what I'll do after that. Also, even with my wife's salary money is still kind of tight every month. Though it's only about a $500 difference once you factor in things like commuting costs, parking, uniforms, crash pads, daycare. Then add that to the extra money she was spending on things like eating out, oil changes, home repairs that she couldn't do when I was on the road.

Right now I have a few ideas kicking around in my head but I don't really have a definite projection. I have an ATP, CFII MEI about 3,000 hours and a BA in History. The logical choice for someone with liberal arts degree is Law School, and I think I'd enjoy that. But the law field has the same problems that the airlines do. Lots of candidates, too few jobs. So, who has some ideas? Is there anyone here with a background that's similar to mine that's successfully made the jump to a new field?

Teacher... East coast - North. Summers off, high pay, strong union = score.

To Sky: You can call looking for a boring but well paying and home every night job mature, but it's still boring.. Not everyone wants a family or white picket fence apple pie lifestyle... Some want that stuff later in life, some never. To me a pilot still seems like an ideal single and adventurous person career. But I don't think it's fair to equate wanting a career someone enjoys with immature thought processes. On the other side of the fence one could call the office monkey the boring type, or one that bends over accepts what society expects of them with no spine.

It seems like this guy had a kid and his priorities changed... fair enough. But just because someone doesn't want kids and a boring job doesn't mean they are immature. Some people actually LIKE to focus life on an interesting career and travel all the time - regardless of age or maturity level. I still do think that exists.

Pielut
10-08-2010, 09:49 AM
I think there are some common misconceptions that if you are not flying you will:

1.) Work in a cubicle
2.) Sit in traffic to and from work every day wanting to kill yourself
3.) A meager 2 weeks vacation per year
4.) Every job other than flying is boring

I have been out of flying for a few years and have worked my way up in a very large company. I now make at least 4 times as much money as I did when I was flying. My day does not consist of a boring commute, I do not work in a cubicle and my days are never routine. This year I will have 5 weeks of vacation and every major holiday off, paid. Doing the math I figured out that I work an average of 16.5 days per month and never work on a weekend, I was a little shocked when I figured this out. I am also fortunate to have a company car that is replaced every 24,000 miles and I pay nothing for it.

(note: I have a worthless liberal arts degree and my daddy does not own the the company I work for:D


Granted, this is not the norm and my first passion is and always will be airplanes but now I can actually fly them for fun.


Good luck to all those searching for a new direction

Ski Patrol
10-08-2010, 10:27 AM
I think there are some common misconceptions that if you are not flying you will:

1.) Work in a cubicle
2.) Sit in traffic to and from work every day wanting to kill yourself
3.) A meager 2 weeks vacation per year
4.) Every job other than flying is boring

I have been out of flying for a few years and have worked my way up in a very large company. I now make at least 4 times as much money as I did when I was flying. My day does not consist of a boring commute, I do not work in a cubicle and my days are never routine. This year I will have 5 weeks of vacation and every major holiday off, paid. Doing the math I figured out that I work an average of 16.5 days per month and never work on a weekend, I was a little shocked when I figured this out. I am also fortunate to have a company car that is replaced every 24,000 miles and I pay nothing for it.

(note: I have a worthless liberal arts degree and my daddy does not own the the company I work for:D


Granted, this is not the norm and my first passion is and always will be airplanes but now I can actually fly them for fun.


Good luck to all those searching for a new direction

So what do you do? When I got furloughed awhile back I tried to get back into accounting nobody would take me when they saw the whole pilot thing on my record. Now I'm back in the saddle on an overnight on the other side of the world. Would gladly trade the widebody int'l gig for a PC-12 job close to home. But at this point just glad to have a job in this econo.

Pielut
10-08-2010, 10:56 AM
Sent you a PM

USMCFLYR
10-08-2010, 12:55 PM
I think there are some common misconceptions that if you are not flying you will:

1.) Work in a cubicle
2.) Sit in traffic to and from work every day wanting to kill yourself
3.) A meager 2 weeks vacation per year
4.) Every job other than flying is boring

I have been out of flying for a few years and have worked my way up in a very large company. I now make at least 4 times as much money as I did when I was flying. My day does not consist of a boring commute, I do not work in a cubicle and my days are never routine. This year I will have 5 weeks of vacation and every major holiday off, paid. Doing the math I figured out that I work an average of 16.5 days per month and never work on a weekend, I was a little shocked when I figured this out. I am also fortunate to have a company car that is replaced every 24,000 miles and I pay nothing for it.

(note: I have a worthless liberal arts degree and my daddy does not own the the company I work for:D


Granted, this is not the norm and my first passion is and always will be airplanes but now I can actually fly them for fun.


Good luck to all those searching for a new direction

Pielut -

I agree with your misconceptions that are sometimes portrayed - but they are no better than the other misconceptions portrayed on this site that there isn't a good flying job out there anywhere or that every flying job is a deadend that will lead you to misery and heartbreak - on top of financial ruin.

Also - though your employment situation sounds awesome, and at least you do say that this is probably not the norm, let it be considered that if a very successful pilot posted his situation on here it would draw fire from al corners of this forum for being unrealistic or an outright fantasy.

The true fact is that there is success and failure on both sides of the fence and in every career.

Congrats on finding a job that allows you to enjoy aviation on your terms. It sound like you are in a good place and you ought to put down a small bet on the local lotto drawing! :D

USMCFLYR

Pielut
10-08-2010, 01:26 PM
I have actually never put it in writing before, maybe I will take you up on your suggestion and get in on the powerball:D I did not make the post to say "oh look at me, I am awesome" I actually busted my a** to get the job I have, it has not always been this good, lot's of long hours to get here. Would I trade places with a SWA or DAL pilot? You bet I would. For me the financial and family price turned out to be not worth it to get to that level.

greaper007
10-08-2010, 02:02 PM
I have actually never put it in writing before, maybe I will take you up on your suggestion and get in on the powerball:D I did not make the post to say "oh look at me, I am awesome" I actually busted my a** to get the job I have, it has not always been this good, lot's of long hours to get here. Would I trade places with a SWA or DAL pilot? You bet I would. For me the financial and family price turned out to be not worth it to get to that level.

Good for you man, may I ask what you're doing now. You don't have to be specific about the company. I'm just curious.

SkyHigh
10-08-2010, 04:25 PM
Teacher... East coast - North. Summers off, high pay, strong union = score.

To Sky: You can call looking for a boring but well paying and home every night job mature, but it's still boring.. Not everyone wants a family or white picket fence apple pie lifestyle... Some want that stuff later in life, some never. To me a pilot still seems like an ideal single and adventurous person career. But I don't think it's fair to equate wanting a career someone enjoys with immature thought processes. On the other side of the fence one could call the office monkey the boring type, or one that bends over accepts what society expects of them with no spine.

It seems like this guy had a kid and his priorities changed... fair enough. But just because someone doesn't want kids and a boring job doesn't mean they are immature. Some people actually LIKE to focus life on an interesting career and travel all the time - regardless of age or maturity level. I still do think that exists.

Most peoples desires will change as they get older. If you want some excitement then join the Peace Corps or join the Army before settling down. You don't have to go 250K in the hold trying to pay for a dead end flying degree plus flight training.

Being a teacher would qualify is a rational grown up job.

Skyhigh



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