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View Full Version : Alpa e-mail and Trans States...


ehe2
06-08-2010, 06:50 AM
This is John Prater with the BOD Update on June 7, 2010.
Another week has passed and our pilots at both Spirit and Jazz still find themselves without new contracts. Time is running out for both of these managements, but you can rest assured that our pilots are prepared for whatever might happen when we reach the cooling-off deadlines for both pilot groups.

The Spirit pilots planned a series of picketing events to turn up the heat on management during its final week of “cooling off.” You can join them on June 8 in Atlantic City, on June 9 in Ft. Lauderdale, and on June 10 in Detroit. For more details, please read the latest SPSC newsletter or go to our website. Meanwhile, ALPA staff and our National SPSC team has been hard at work behind the scenes preparing these pilots for any and all scenarios that might pan out come midnight on June 12.

The following 24-hours will be equally notable in Canada, as our Jazz pilots reach the end of their 21-day cooling-off period, which also expires on Saturday night June 12. The Jazz Strike Committee and SPSC has the Toronto-based strike center ready to roll, while both bargaining teams have agreed to go back to the table earlier this week for one last attempt to work out an agreement. The Negotiating Committee went to this meeting armed with the 99 percent strike vote authorization from their pilots, and for the first time, Jazz management brought key decision makers. Meetings are expected to continue this last critical week.

Moreover, the strike vote garnered attention from the Minister of Labour and the Canadian Labour Congress, who are both urging that settlements be achieved. Capt. Dan Adamus, president of the Canada Board, reiterated that both agencies are ready to assist in the process to facilitate a successful resolution.

I’ll keep you fully briefed on both of these situations later this week. I also trust that you will use your union leadership role in garnering support from our 53,000 ALPA members to support our fellow pilots with the resources it takes to secure the contracts they both deserve. Don’t forget to vote on the two separate BOD ballots to authorize the payment of strike benefits for Spirit and Jazz; we need a two-thirds majority vote and I encourage you to show 100% solidarity.

Two other pilot groups’ negotiations are coming to a head soon. The Pinnacle pilot group is entering the last stage of negotiations, and before they meet with the NMB again, the MEC is prioritizing its list of demands for what they expect out of a new tentative agreement.

Finally, the TSA pilots could be entering their last negotiating session. They’re facing a volatile management that might shut down the entire operation and shift all the flying over to GoJet instead of inking a new deal with our brothers and sisters at Trans States. You should know that these ALPA members are ready to make the critical sacrifice for the whole of the profession rather than accept a contract which lowers the standards for every pilot.*

Right in formation in the number 5, 6 and 7 slot, we have the Air Tran, Wasaya and Air Transat negotiations. I’ll have more updates on those and the entire second wave of ALPA pilot contract negotiations about to begin, in the weeks ahead.

These pilots and their ALPA leaders make me proud—as do all the pilot groups in negotiations who are taking a stand against managers and owners who have not yet recognized the value of their pilots or the value of working with their ALPA leaders and members to reach mutual goals. No, some managers continue to doubt our solidarity and the commitment of our Union. Unfortunately for them and their investors, they have not yet learned the easy way or have concluded wrongly that they can break this Union. I want each of our members and their families who are standing united, shoulder to shoulder, to know that this union of professional aviators stands ready to assist them with whatever decision they make.

From the Hill, Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) has introduced a resolution seeking to stop the National Mediation Board rule change that brings fairness back into the union election system. We’re working hand-in-hand with the Transportation Trades Department and other AFL-CIO affiliates to kill this latest misguided effort to put up a roadblock for airline workers who want to unionize.

Once again we have had personal tragedy strike several of our ALPA families. Our sincerest condolences and hearts and prayers go out to those pilot groups and MECs who so recently lost friends and family. Please take a moment this week to recognize the gift of family and of each other in our fraternal profession.

I’ll end on a note of congratulations to Capt. Dennis Dolan (retired Delta), former ALPA first vice-president, who, not surprisingly, emerged as the top candidate for the General Secretary post with the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association. In this new role, he will guide the HKAOA through the execution of its agenda—just as he has through various other leadership roles within the aviation community. In addition to holding a national officer position at ALPA, he also served as president of IFALPA and as chairman of the Delta MEC. Everyone here at ALPA wishes Dennis and his wife Maritza the best in this newest chapter of his proud career as an advocate for our profession.

Please check out this week’s FastRead for more information from your union.

Fly safe.


"Finally, the TSA pilots could be entering their last negotiating session. They’re facing a volatile management that might shut down the entire operation and shift all the flying over to GoJet instead of inking a new deal with our brothers and sisters at Trans States. You should know that these ALPA members are ready to make the critical sacrifice for the whole of the profession rather than accept a contract which lowers the standards for every pilot.*"


This is news to me...


Speedbird172
06-08-2010, 07:10 AM
If this is true it would be a good opportunity for GJ pilots to step up and do the right thing by somehow refusing the flying.

captfred
06-08-2010, 07:20 AM
Lets hope fat John Prater shows more leadership than he did after receiving the U S Airways-America West seniority arbitration.


Purpleanga
06-08-2010, 07:33 AM
Finally, the TSA pilots could be entering their last negotiating session. They’re facing a volatile management that might shut down the entire operation and shift all the flying over to GoJet instead of inking a new deal with our brothers and sisters at Trans States. You should know that these ALPA members are ready to make the critical sacrifice for the whole of the profession rather than accept a contract which lowers the standards for every pilot.*
.

Mr Prater, since this is news to me, how are they going to shift all the flying over to Gojet? Did they tell you? For one thing they will have to find about 300 pilots in about a day, since last time I checked you can't take a 3 month break from a United or usairways regional contract to train replacement pilots. It's just management BS, they know that we are about to be released.

DryMotorBoatin
06-08-2010, 10:32 AM
If this is true it would be a good opportunity for GJ pilots to step up and do the right thing by somehow refusing the flying.


YouTube - Wish in one hand, crap in the other (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-p51fvYLc)

CaptainCarl
06-08-2010, 11:04 AM
"You should know that these ALPA members are ready to make the critical sacrifice for the whole of the profession rather than accept a contract which lowers the standards for every pilot."

:( I don't see how Waterskiers giving up their jobs to GoJet would benefit the profession... But I understand not accepting lower standards. Feels like a catch-22 to me.

minimwage4
06-08-2010, 01:52 PM
I'm not sure what Prater was trying to say with the sacrifice thing. Probably something about industry unity but failed miserably in articulation.

Total replacement of TSA pilots would be practically, economically, legally improbable. Doing the flights to replace a striking pilot group indefinitely even under the most remote legal loophole, would be career suicide for those at Gojet. All Gojet pilots would be hunted till the end of time, not just the original ones. Keep in mind, today's regional pilots will be tomorrows mainline pilots. It's not the way to go. Their so-called union should be working with alpa to resolve this so that the whipsaw between them can end once and for all.

DryMotorBoatin
06-08-2010, 05:07 PM
practically, economically, legally improbable.

TSA Mgmt's motto?

bernouli
06-08-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm not sure what Prater was trying to say with the sacrifice thing. Probably something about industry unity but failed miserably in articulation.

Total replacement of TSA pilots would be practically, economically, legally improbable. Doing the flights to replace a striking pilot group indefinitely even under the most remote legal loophole, would be career suicide for those at Gojet. All Gojet pilots would be hunted till the end of time, not just the original ones. Keep in mind, today's regional pilots will be tomorrows mainline pilots. It's not the way to go. Their so-called union should be working with alpa to resolve this so that the whipsaw between them can end once and for all.


Today's GJ pilots are also [ironically] today's legacy pilots as well. If anybody truly cared, ALPA wouldn't allow an ALPA carrier (UAL) to outsource to such an airline, not to mention supply GJ with furloughed pilots from the major carrier. There's no such thing as flying belonging to a regional airline.
GJ pilots (both off the street and "jet for job" employees) have nothing to fear as far as career expectation. The "originals" as you call them, are never going to leave anyway. They make 6 figures a year, get 14-16 days off a month, including weekends, and live in a city where most of them are from.

Blueskies21
06-08-2010, 06:02 PM
Today's GJ pilots are also [ironically] today's legacy pilots as well. If anybody truly cared, ALPA wouldn't allow an ALPA carrier (UAL) to outsource to such an airline, not to mention supply GJ with furloughed pilots from the major carrier. There's no such thing as flying belonging to a regional airline.
GJ pilots (both off the street and "jet for job" employees) have nothing to fear as far as career expectation. The "originals" as you call them, are never going to leave anyway. They make 6 figures a year, get 14-16 days off a month, including weekends, and live in a city where most of them are from.
One of the worst precedents that ever happened in this industry, it wasn't a flowback displacement of captains.It was these guys CHOOSING to REPLACE THEMSELVES for 1st year regional pay augmented by their union to 2nd year regional pay.
If NMB will release them this year TSA will strike and then we'll see really where the Gojetters stand, I give it 50/50. The only thing that might grant them some moral fortitude are the United guys who won't want to forever be labeled as true Scabs.
Of course, these may not be career minded United guys since they decided to torpedo their return to united by providing their skills to the regional causing the job loss.
True it all flows from Tilton, but we as pilots don't need to help him out.

And don't give me that feed my family crap, unemployment is more than gojet and if you really want to feed your family perhaps it's time to explore other career avenues since this one is sooo helpful.

bernouli
06-08-2010, 06:37 PM
One of the worst precedents that ever happened in this industry, it wasn't a flowback displacement of captains.It was these guys CHOOSING to REPLACE THEMSELVES for 1st year regional pay augmented by their union to 2nd year regional pay.
If NMB will release them this year TSA will strike and then we'll see really where the Gojetters stand, I give it 50/50. The only thing that might grant them some moral fortitude are the United guys who won't want to forever be labeled as true Scabs.
Of course, these may not be career minded United guys since they decided to torpedo their return to united by providing their skills to the regional causing the job loss.
True it all flows from Tilton, but we as pilots don't need to help him out.

And don't give me that feed my family crap, unemployment is more than gojet and if you really want to feed your family perhaps it's time to explore other career avenues since this one is sooo helpful.


How can a UAL furloughee be a scab for flying UAL express service? Make up a different word if you need to, but scab is an acronym for something else. Name an exclusive Trans states route. One that is operated by and belongs to Trans States Airlines, and nobody else. TSA has no leverage to negotiate, and you know it. A strike will hinder more than it will help, IMHO.

You're saying that a pilot that is on his/her 2nd furlough from UAL would be a scab if a regional pilot group of roughly 250 ppl were to strike, and said UAL furloughee continued to fly United work? You're mistaken. Especially since the union suggested the pilot go there in the first place.

The UAL pilots did choose to go to GJ, yes. The move to the "hiring express carrier" was organized by ALPA. Who's to blame? The pilots or the union for allowing such atrocity to take place? That's your call I suppose.

Try and take a step back and view this from a realistic point of view.

DryMotorBoatin
06-08-2010, 06:54 PM
Try and take a step back and view this from a realistic point of view.

I gota see if I understand this right...you are saying that if TSA is released/strikes and that flying goes to GoJet...they arent scabs? Is that what youre trying to say?

bernouli
06-08-2010, 07:19 PM
I gota see if I understand this right...you are saying that if TSA is released/strikes and that flying goes to GoJet...they arent scabs? Is that what youre trying to say?

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's United's flying, not Trans States'.

boilerpilot
06-08-2010, 07:31 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's United's flying, not Trans States'.

It is actually Trans States' flying, though. They were awarded the contract. If United goes on strike and GoJet and others are used to fill the routes, would those pilots still not be scabs? After all, they're United pilots.

This is the problem with scope relaxation. Once you sell it, it's theirs.

DryMotorBoatin
06-08-2010, 07:56 PM
WOW. I just had to make sure I was understanding you correct before I went on a tirade. You cannot believe the things you are saying. First of all, if you fly struck work...you are a scab. End of story. Shuffling the flying over to another United carrier...its still struck work. Second, if what you are saying is correct...then what is the point of regionals belonging to a union? Mainline and regional management could whipsaw us endlessly until the work is being done for free OR pilots are actually paying to fly. we would have no job security at all. Do you really believe it should be that easy to replace labor? Youre sh-ttin in your own nest if you think thats true. We would have zero leverge while mgmt would have infinite leverage. We strike, they fire. Not legal bud.

bernouli
06-08-2010, 08:30 PM
WOW. I just had to make sure I was understanding you correct before I went on a tirade. You cannot believe the things you are saying. First of all, if you fly struck work...you are a scab. End of story. Shuffling the flying over to another United carrier...its still struck work. Second, if what you are saying is correct...then what is the point of regionals belonging to a union? Mainline and regional management could whipsaw us endlessly until the work is being done for free OR pilots are actually paying to fly. we would have no job security at all. Do you really believe it should be that easy to replace labor? Youre sh-ttin in your own nest if you think thats true. We would have zero leverge while mgmt would have infinite leverage. We strike, they fire. Not legal bud.

What would be considered struck work then, if any regional carrier were to strike? That's the point I'm trying to convey. I agree with flying struck work creates a fresh scab, but determining the struck work is complicated, if not, impossible. ORD-STL legs aren't going to stop. Neither are hub/spoke routes to and from DEN, IAD...etc.

I'd be concerned that TSA pilots will be walking back and forth in front of an airport, dressed in full uniform (hat and coat included), holding a sign. Meanwhile, every few minutes, a white over blue airplane is going to muffle the sound of dissatisfied regional pilot voices, chanting in unison, asking for a better life. Do I hope that doesn't happen, and a strike is effective? Ab-so-f'in-lutely...... Whether or not my hopes come to fruition is sadly, in my humble opinion, a completely different story.

Copperhed51
06-08-2010, 08:37 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's United's flying, not Trans States'.

By that logic then every regional pilot is a scab for flying another airline's work...or wait maybe the major guys gave up scope and allowed the regional pilots to do that flying that was beneath them. If they gave them that flying, it's theirs by contract.

If you want to stick with your logic, then a regional like TSA that flies under 2 different majors would have to have both of those major airline pilot groups strike the specific flying that is done by TSA so that nobody else can fly it. If they're gonna do that, then they might as well strike and say the flying is theirs and that every regional pilot is a scab if they fly it. Oh wait, we're back to the fact that the major guys already gave up that flying. Your logic is flawed, ignorant, and ill-conceived. Embarrassing.

Copperhed51
06-08-2010, 08:40 PM
What would be considered struck work then, if any regional carrier were to strike? That's the point I'm trying to convey. I agree with flying struck work creates a fresh scab, but determining the struck work is complicated, if not, impossible. ORD-STL legs aren't going to stop. Neither are hub/spoke routes to and from DEN, IAD...etc.

Your concerns there are valid but ALPA has proven to be very helpful in the past in determining what is struck work and what is not and warning people at other airlines which flights they should and should not operate. I bet some flights slip through the cracks but overall things should go smoothly.

SkyHighHobo
06-09-2010, 08:56 AM
TSA pilots could never be replaced in a timely enough fashion that would allow HK to honor their service agreements. No way, no how. There's not that kind of excess capacity currently available on the planet.

Let me know when the strike fund is set up. My check book is ready.

DryMotorBoatin
06-09-2010, 09:14 AM
TSA pilots could never be replaced in a timely enough fashion that would allow HK to honor their service agreements. No way, no how. There's not that kind of excess capacity currently available on the planet.

Let me know when the strike fund is set up. My check book is ready.

Don't be so sure of that. HK & Friends are capable of anything to screw the pilots. I've long said...If its good, its not true. If its bad, its true. But anyway you look at it...the flying we do is TSA flying. It is NOT United flying. United issued an RFP...TSA signed the contract...it becomes ours. Bernouli better stick with the logic of high velocity equals low pressure while low velocity results in high pressure because the logic that taking over TSA flying isn't flying struck work...thats not following good logic.

mking84
06-09-2010, 09:24 AM
Don't be so sure of that. HK & Friends are capable of anything to screw the pilots. I've long said...If its good, its not true. If its bad, its true. But anyway you look at it...the flying we do is TSA flying. It is NOT United flying. United issued an RFP...TSA signed the contract...it becomes ours. Bernouli better stick with the logic of high velocity equals low pressure while low velocity results in high pressure because the logic that taking over TSA flying isn't flying struck work...thats not following good logic.

Trans States HOLDINGS signed the contract. Guys, as much as Im behind TSA pilots I do have to say that your predecessors have made your bed, now you have to lie in it. Hulas will do anything he can to get what he wants, this is proven and is the ONLY reason blowjets exists. If he shifts HIS flying over then its his to do so with. Since when to GoJet pilots worry about being a scab or flying struck work? They were created for that very reason. My .02, TSA Alpa had the chance to prevent GoJets creation and didnt, they stood on principle, which is noble, but it screwed them in the end.

Flame away.

SkyHighHobo
06-09-2010, 09:27 AM
Don't be so sure of that. HK & Friends are capable of anything to screw the pilots. I've long said...If its good, its not true. If its bad, its true. But anyway you look at it...the flying we do is TSA flying. It is NOT United flying. United issued an RFP...TSA signed the contract...it becomes ours. Bernouli better stick with the logic of high velocity equals low pressure while low velocity results in high pressure because the logic that taking over TSA flying isn't flying struck work...thats not following good logic.

No way, no how.

There's aren't enough legal crews and airframes.

Period.

minimwage4
06-09-2010, 09:35 AM
Trans States HOLDINGS signed the contract. Guys, as much as Im behind TSA pilots I do have to say that your predecessors have made your bed, now you have to lie in it. Hulas will do anything he can to get what he wants, this is proven and is the ONLY reason blowjets exists. If he shifts HIS flying over then its his to do so with. Since when to GoJet pilots worry about being a scab or flying struck work? They were created for that very reason. My .02, TSA Alpa had the chance to prevent GoJets creation and didnt, they stood on principle, which is noble, but it screwed them in the end.

Flame away.

I really doubt that they would scab for this, I'm 99% sure that most hate their job. No way would they sacrifice their career for Gojet. I mean yes gojet is deffintaly a shady operation but they are not scabs.

minimwage4
06-09-2010, 09:40 AM
Today's GJ pilots are also [ironically] today's legacy pilots as well. If anybody truly cared, ALPA wouldn't allow an ALPA carrier (UAL) to outsource to such an airline, not to mention supply GJ with furloughed pilots from the major carrier. There's no such thing as flying belonging to a regional airline.
.

They haven't scabbed yet though. If they do then even the United guys would have nowhere to hide. And yes, the routes are from United but it is TSA flying under a contract. And United pilots wouldn't be scabbing, gojet pilots would so it makes no difference anyways.

Copperhed51
06-09-2010, 10:21 AM
Trans States HOLDINGS signed the contract.

I haven't seen the contracts for the flying so I can't argue this point but now I'm curious. Who signed the contract for the flying, TSA or TSH? Anybody 100% sure?

mking84
06-09-2010, 10:54 AM
No way, no how.

There's aren't enough legal crews and airframes.

Period.

That's right... You got uncle hooley on that one!

If that's you attitude then you will be shocked when it happens. That's the same " they'll never create an alter ego so stick it to em" attitude that has landed you guys in a deeper hole than before. I'm behind you guys but realities of this situation are not so good.

DryMotorBoatin
06-09-2010, 11:21 AM
mking is right. i dont think it would bother them one bit to take on our flying.

hslightnin
06-09-2010, 11:37 AM
mking is right. i dont think it would bother them one bit to take on our flying.
I think you mean, i dont think it would bother them one bit to take more of our flying.

DryMotorBoatin
06-09-2010, 12:46 PM
I think you mean, i dont think it would bother them one bit to take more of our flying.


haha well that was kind of the point i was trying to hint around at. ill be the waterskier who says that was partially our fault...as mking84 said...our precedessors made our bed. hes exactly right. but if we strike in hopes of improving quality of life and they take the flying...i think they would do so in a second.

BYUFlyr
06-09-2010, 04:16 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's United's flying, not Trans States'.


Let's be clear on this GoJet and Trans States Holdings issue.... I'll refer to the definition of a SCAB from the Spirit Airlines Scab Website:

SPIRIT AIRLINES INC. SCABS
A. Any Spirit Airlines, Inc. pilot with a date of hire (DOH) between June 12, 2010 and {future date unknown} (a.k.a. "replacement worker") is automatically a SCAB.
B. Any Spirit Airlines, Inc. pilot with a DOH prior to June 12th, 2010 that crosses the picket line and has been confirmed to have operated a Spirit aircraft during a period of lawfully "struck work," is a SCAB.
C. Any Spirit Airlines, Inc. pilot, or other certificated pilot, that willfully operates aircaft for an alter-ego company, specifically for the purpose of operating Spirit Airlines' aircraft and/or its scheduled routes, during a period of lawfully "struck work," is a SCAB.
D. Any Spirit Airlines, Inc. pilot that crosses the picket line and has been confirmed to have operated a Spirit aircraft during a period of lawfully "struck work," or that "crawls back" sometime after the strike has started, due to family crisis issues; i.e. you're about to lose your house; to feed your family; your kid gets cancer and you need the money to pay for treatment; or any other case however extreme, is still a SCAB.
E. Any Spirit Airlines, Inc. pilot that is in training, ground-schoool, I.O.E., or on probation, with or without a DOH, that operates a Spirit Airlines, Inc. aircraft specifically for the purpose of operating its scheduled route during a period of lawfully "struck work," is a SCAB.
F. Any Spirit Airlines, Inc. unionized ALPA management pilot, (i.e. Chief Pilot, Director of Operations, Director of Training/Safety, etc.) that operates a Spirit Airlines, Inc. aircraft specifically for the purpose of operating its scheduled route during a period of lawfully "struck work," is a SCAB.

That's pretty cut and dry to me....

Blueskies21
06-09-2010, 04:45 PM
I think the others have beat the horse, but I'll chime in anyway. I didn't say that the united guys at gojet now are CURRENTLY scabs, just that they were stupid for choosing to replace themselves. If however they fly routes that were being flown by TSA at a time of lawful strike then at that time they would be SCABS in the most true sense of the word. ( ALPA sets up strike centers for this purpose specifically so that pilots of other airlines who might be operating similiar routes are able to check whether the specific flight they are now operating was operated by a striking carrier)

My hope for gojet is that while many consider the work they do to be shady, that they will not want to actually be scabs beyond a shadow of a doubt. If we somehow no longer care about scabbing then why don't we get rid of the unions completely and see how much we like our job then.(because the career will be truly dead). I for one will make sure that a SCAB never gets on my jumpseat for the rest of my career, and I hope all other honorable pilots do likewise.

DryMotorBoatin
06-09-2010, 08:43 PM
BYUflyr...thank you for doing the research I was too lazy to do. You are correct.

SkyHighHobo
06-10-2010, 08:56 AM
That's right... You got uncle hooley on that one!

If that's you attitude then you will be shocked when it happens. That's the same " they'll never create an alter ego so stick it to em" attitude that has landed you guys in a deeper hole than before. I'm behind you guys but realities of this situation are not so good.
What happens to the schedule when a couple of jets go out of service?

What happens when ALL of them don't have crews?

p.s. the boogy man is fictional.

embpilot
06-10-2010, 09:37 AM
I donno about the rest but the boogy man is real he lives bin 5 in N910DL in ATL

Purpleanga
06-12-2010, 11:14 PM
anyone read the latest vars..

Although there were no tentative agreements made during the week, there was some shortening of the distance between the parties
on the remaining issues.

would anyone like to translate? same thing every time... the distance has been shortening the last 4 years, and yet all we need to agree on now is just pay and scheduling and scope and insurance and everything else that really matters. we getting released or what?? good lord

I don't think the NMB can be this blind and to actually think that our management has the intention to negotiate fairly. Is everything being done to pursue them to release us?

Copperhed51
06-13-2010, 12:41 AM
What a joke

Stew75
06-20-2010, 07:54 PM
Shortening distance? Does that mean they almost sat at the table?