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View Full Version : Question on EGLL ILS 27R approach


meloveboeing
06-12-2010, 10:18 PM
I am looking at the EGLL ILS DME Rwy 27R approach plates and I noticed that it does not have step downs for the LOC only approach like US plates do. so then how is a LOC approach flown? at 7.5 DME an altitude of 2500 is printed, then GS intercept at 1410 at 4.0 DME and then there is LOC 1080 at 3 DME and the MDA is 420. So starting at 7.5 DME does that mean I can descend down to 1410, or 1080? AND when can I descend to 420 at 3.0 DME? The approach gives a LOC descent gradient of 5.2% and with a ground speed of 140 that's 755 fpm. In the US we can use that for a continous descent approach (CDA) which actually raises the MDA by 75 feet. But if I want to to get the the MDA of 420 without using a CDA, how is that done with this chart?


BigTime
06-13-2010, 12:47 AM
Does it say LOC approach at the top of the plate? The ones I found have two separate approach plates, one for the ILS 27R and another for LOC/DME 27R. You cannot shoot a localizer approach using an ILS plate unless it specifically says ILS/LOC at the top AND you are cleared for the localizer only approach.

The LOC/DME plate shows an altitude of 1090 at 3DME. Notice how the plate shows that altitude for the entire segment between 7.5 and 3DME? I'm not sure if these are legal plates, but they do appear to be current as of this month.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-D097160D6D2B7E89299AF97D4F5FBFE9/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_8-15_en_2010-06-03.pdf

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-D097160D6D2B7E89299AF97D4F5FBFE9/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_8-14_en_2010-06-03.pdf

dundem
06-13-2010, 05:40 AM
I am not 100% sure, but if my memory serves me correctly CDAs are required at EGLL below a certain altitude (7,000' ?). I will seek clarification and advise within a few days.

If you need an answer sooner, post this question on pprune.org and I'm sure someone will tell you within a few hours.


KC10 FATboy
06-13-2010, 06:38 AM
It seems to me that you don't understand how to fly a LOC approach.

If you are established on the approach and have been cleared the approach, you can descend down to the next altitude once you are on that segment.

For example, once inside 7.5 DME and before 3 DME, you are cleared to descend from 2500 to 1090. After you pass 3 DME, you are cleared to descend down to the approach minimums of 430. After level at 430 and you reach .5 DME and you can't see the runway environment or if you can't make a safe landing, go around.

Does this help?

meloveboeing
06-13-2010, 08:15 AM
KC10, I think you need to reread my question and look at the Jep EGLL ILS DME 27R approach plates. They do not have step downs for me to do a conventional dive and drive LOC approach.

Bigtime you actually answered my question. For me to be able to do a LCO approach, you are right, it has to say ILS or LOC DME 27R approach. And no it does not say that. It says "ILS DME RWY 27R" That's what threw me off actually, I flipped through ILS charts in North America and I've yet to find one that ILS only. All of them has "ILS OR LOC". I looked at IAH, MEX, YUL, MSP. The only time you see ILS only is when it goes to Cat II in which case no LOC minimums are publlished. Which makes me wonder why LOC minimums are publised for an ILS only approach plate?

dundem
06-20-2010, 08:33 AM
meloveboeing, I know you said you already got your answer, but I'll post anyway.

Firstly, my memory did not serve me correctly. There is no requirement for a CDA below 7,000' for EGLL. When I posted I remembered not being level below 7,000' on the LAM3A, but that was coincidence. Instead of paraphrasing, I'll just post from Jeppessen.

Jeppessen 10-1
An ACFT approaching to land shall according to its ATC clearance minimize noise disturbance by the use of continuous descent and low power, low drag operating procedures.
ACFT approaching RWY 27L/R between 0600-2330LT and using the ILS shall not descend below 2500’ on GS before being established on LOC, nor thereafter fly below GS. ACFT approaching without ILS assistance shall follow a descent path which will not result in its being at any time lower than the approach path that would be followed by an ACFT using the ILS GS, and shall follow a track to intercept the extended RWY centerline at or above 2500’.

CDA
On receipt of descent clearance descend at the rate best suited to a continuous descent so as to join the GS at the appropriate height for the distance without recourse to level flight.


Regarding a requirement for the the chart to say LOC, I'm not familiar with that. If anyone has a reference, I'd be happy to see it. At my current company, the charts say 'ILS' only at the top but has the LOC minimums listed and we are approved for the LOC only approach.

Just to clarify further, no dive and drive approaches for EGLL.

Controlled Rest
06-21-2010, 05:09 AM
I am looking at the EGLL ILS DME Rwy 27R approach plates and I noticed that it does not have step downs for the LOC only approach like US plates do. so then how is a LOC approach flown? at 7.5 DME an altitude of 2500 is printed, then GS intercept at 1410 at 4.0 DME and then there is LOC 1080 at 3 DME and the MDA is 420. So starting at 7.5 DME does that mean I can descend down to 1410, or 1080? AND when can I descend to 420 at 3.0 DME? The approach gives a LOC descent gradient of 5.2% and with a ground speed of 140 that's 755 fpm. In the US we can use that for a continous descent approach (CDA) which actually raises the MDA by 75 feet. But if I want to to get the the MDA of 420 without using a CDA, how is that done with this chart?

Without looking at the plate, based on what you say you'd be able to descend to 1080 after passing 7.5 DME. The 1410 GS intercept altitude is not relevant for the LOC only approach.

pilotgil
07-11-2010, 07:11 AM
Hi,

Take a look at ILS 26L KPOC. I am looking for the answer as to why there is no LOC approach.