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BoilerUP
07-01-2010, 04:43 AM
Frank *was* right!

Also - sell Compass for just $20.5M?


eaglefly
07-01-2010, 04:45 AM
There goes the neighborhood.......................:rolleyes:

Captain Tony
07-01-2010, 04:48 AM
I think it's very strange. Jerry Atkin could have written a personal check for both of them. He probably has that much in his wallet. There must be a reason why SkyWest wasn't interested...


eaglefly
07-01-2010, 04:50 AM
I think it's very strange. Jerry Atkin could have written a personal check for both of them. He probably has that much in his wallet. There must be a reason why SkyWest wasn't interested...

Saving their money for Eagle ?

Airsupport
07-01-2010, 04:50 AM
I think it's very strange. Jerry Atkin could have written a personal check for both of them. He probably has that much in his wallet. There must be a reason why SkyWest wasn't interested...

or delta didn't want to sell yet another airline to skywest.

Captain Tony
07-01-2010, 04:51 AM
or delta didn't want to sell yet another airline to skywest.

Which would mean the future of SkyWest and ASA is not bright.

eaglefly
07-01-2010, 04:52 AM
or delta didn't want to sell yet another airline to skywest.

2 or 3 players to participate in the whipsaw works best. Too much chow on one players plate gives them too much leverage.

UAL and AA will be doing the same..........2 or 3 palyers and whipsaw city.

Foxcow
07-01-2010, 04:54 AM
Strait from the horses mouth...

Delta Air Lines Reaches Definitive Agreements to Sell Mesaba, Compass Airline Subsidiaries - Jul 1, 2010 (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1063)


My condolences Compass...

Positive_Rate
07-01-2010, 04:54 AM
Delta Air Lines Reaches Definitive Agreements to Sell Mesaba, Compass Airline Subsidiaries -- MINNEAPOLIS-ST. PAUL, July 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/delta-air-lines-reaches-definitive-agreements-to-sell-mesaba-compass-airline-subsidiaries-97574264.html)

Here we go.

RiddleEagle18
07-01-2010, 04:55 AM
20 million price tag did not include the airplanes I wouldnt think. I imagine they will still be leased from delta.

If that is the case than 20 million for compass was fair. We do not own anything!!! We leached everything from delta.

RiddleEagle18
07-01-2010, 04:55 AM
Compass guys have emails already it is definatley for real

Ad Lib
07-01-2010, 04:56 AM
Posted on Wed, Jun. 30, 2010
FAA proposes fining regional carriers $2.5M
By JOAN LOWY
Associated Press Writer

Federal regulators have proposed fines of nearly $2.5 million for safety violations against two regional air carriers that operate commuter flights for United Airlines and US Airways.

The Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement Wednesday that it wants to fine sister carriers Trans States Airlines and GoJet Airlines for violating maintenance procedures and operating nine jets on 320 flights when the planes were not in compliance with safety regulations.

The carriers are owned by Trans States Holdings of Bridgeton, Mo. They fly commuter flights for United Airlines under the name United Express. Trans States also flies for US Airways under the name US Airways Express.

The FAA said Trans States and GoJet violated several maintenance regulations and procedures, including use of outdated manufacturers' maintenance instructions to perform repairs. In one instance, a wing flap part wasn't connected, making the flaps inoperable, the agency said. In several cases, workers didn't document repairs or inspections. There were also improper repairs of an oil leak and of malfunctioning aircraft warning systems.

"Air carriers cannot ignore maintenance requirements or allow employees to take a pass on following regulations," FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt said in a statement. "Safety depends not only on maintenance work being done correctly, but also being recorded properly."

Trans States and GoJet have 30 days to respond to the agency.

Read more: Bradenton.com | 06/30/2010 | FAA proposes fining regional carriers $2.5M (http://www.bradenton.com/2010/06/30/v-print/2402342/faa-proposes-fining-regional-carriers.html#ixzz0sQwrldns)Hoping for the best despite the new ownership.

BoilerUP
07-01-2010, 05:01 AM
Which would mean the future of SkyWest and ASA is not bright.

I think you're reading a wee bit much into this.

After the Comair strike, Delta hasn't wanted any single entity to have too much control of their Connection feed.

Had they sold Mesaba and/or Compass to Skywest, Inc. they'd have done just that.

Foxcow
07-01-2010, 05:07 AM
Now we know where the MRJs will be placed if they materialize.

johnso29
07-01-2010, 05:15 AM
Now we know where the MRJs will be placed if they materialize.

Not in DAL colors. Ain't happening.

mking84
07-01-2010, 05:17 AM
Well just when you thought things could not get ANY worse they do. I am still waiting for my facebook page to light up with comments like "we bought compass we rock" just like it did when hulas ordered the MRJs. I guess we know where those are going now.

I am going to sign off and go stick my head in the oven.

UnusualAttitude
07-01-2010, 05:17 AM
Not in DAL colors. Ain't happening.

Better not!

yb23
07-01-2010, 05:24 AM
Does the Compass flow cease when they're sold similar to Mesaba's?

SkyHighHobo
07-01-2010, 05:35 AM
No, its just re-directed to TSA! :D

mustache ride
07-01-2010, 05:43 AM
My condolences, Compass pilots. Especially the ex-TSA'ers that left to go to Compass! Hulas is stalking you and he wants you back! So, TSA starts flying for UAL in 2003, flying mostly old ACA routes. ACA's certificate ends up at NW, starting Compass. 2010 TSA buys Compass making the circle of crap complete. Guess this means it's time for a contract!?

Check Essential
07-01-2010, 05:44 AM
Does the Compass flow cease when they're sold similar to Mesaba's?

No, its just re-directed to TSA! :D

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c.

embpilot
07-01-2010, 05:51 AM
Well just when you thought things could not get ANY worse they do. I am still waiting for my facebook page to light up with comments like "we bought compass we rock" just like it did when hulas ordered the MRJs. I guess we know where those are going now.

I am going to sign off and go stick my head in the oven.

Now here is guy who really gets it!!!, Im still laughing! The oven option might be a very viable one. Its gonna be GJ ugly all over again.

bohicagain
07-01-2010, 06:07 AM
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c.


To me that means that the flow up rights to the new hire pilots that are hired after the sale can be terminated

Can you also post Section D and H?

Copperhed51
07-01-2010, 06:22 AM
So let me get this straight. TSA can't afford to give the pilots a new contract because they're not making much money anymore. The NMB allows them to stall contract negotiations for pretty much forever. Hulas threatens to shut down TSA is we strike. Hulas spends $20 million to buy Compass.

Two things seem clear to me.
1) Hulas CAN afford to pay us more
2) Now if we strike, he probably will shut TSA down because he has cash coming in from Compass and can afford the hit he'd take on TSA.

I'm beyond angry at this RLA/NMB nonsense. If TSA isn't given an immediate proffer after this news, I'm gonna lose my mind.

Check Essential
07-01-2010, 06:27 AM
To me that means that the flow up rights to the new hire pilots that are hired after the sale can be terminated

Can you also post Section D and H?

I think "new hire" is a reference to the time at which this agreement was signed. When Compass was founded. It means ALL Compass pilots.

Sections D and H are not really relevant to whether the flow continues.
They specify a Compass pilot's rights if he elects not to flow and the terms and conditions of his employment and initial training if he does flow.

I think your interpretation is correct. The flow can now be terminated by Compass management. I expect they will do so. It costs them training money so why would they continue?

eaglefly
07-01-2010, 06:30 AM
So let me get this straight. TSA can't afford to give the pilots a new contract because they're not making much money anymore. The NMB allows them to stall contract negotiations for pretty much forever. Hulas threatens to shut down TSA is we strike. Hulas spends $20 million to buy Compass.

Two things seem clear to me.
1) Hulas CAN afford to pay us more
2) Now if we strike, he probably will shut TSA down because he has cash coming in from Compass and can afford the hit he'd take on TSA.

I'm beyond angry at this RLA/NMB nonsense. If TSA isn't given an immediate proffer after this news, I'm gonna lose my mind.

Of course he can afford to pay you more..............he just doesn't WANT to.

RiddleEagle18
07-01-2010, 06:34 AM
I think your interpretation is correct. The flow can now be terminated by Compass management. I expect they will do so. It costs them training money so why would they continue?

that would be pretty short sighted. the money it cost to train is outweighed by the ability to keep your most senir captain at 3rd year pay.

JungleBus
07-01-2010, 07:05 AM
that would be pretty short sighted. the money it cost to train is outweighed by the ability to keep your most senir captain at 3rd year pay.

Airline management, short-sighted? Perish the thought! :p

Lou Reed
07-01-2010, 07:12 AM
Oh yea, our flow might remain intact........riiiiiight! It's just another day for you and me in paradise.

Salukipilot4590
07-01-2010, 07:30 AM
What the?

...soo Hulas has the money to buy Compass, sign on the dotted line for new planes, and pay off the FAA for fines but not enough to sign a pilot contract.

C'mon brah.

pause
07-01-2010, 07:36 AM
Nevermind...no worth it

Phuz
07-01-2010, 07:56 AM
If CPZ is no longer owned by Delta, wouldn't it be economically better to flow your pilots at yr3/4 versus hanging onto them to yr10/20?

Obviously it costs money to train newbs, question is which is cheaper for the new ownership?

Purpleanga
07-01-2010, 08:21 AM
What will this mean for current TSA? It's interesting how two regionals that are in deep contract talks with their pilots, claiming they have no money to spend, are making deals to buy up airlines. What a failure for the RLA and the NMB.

bernouli
07-01-2010, 09:19 AM
So let me get this straight. TSA can't afford to give the pilots a new contract because they're not making much money anymore. The NMB allows them to stall contract negotiations for pretty much forever. Hulas threatens to shut down TSA is we strike. Hulas spends $20 million to buy Compass.

Two things seem clear to me.
1) Hulas CAN afford to pay us more
2) Now if we strike, he probably will shut TSA down because he has cash coming in from Compass and can afford the hit he'd take on TSA.

I'm beyond angry at this RLA/NMB nonsense. If TSA isn't given an immediate proffer after this news, I'm gonna lose my mind.

maybe he's just tired of your wittle whining :(

crustacean
07-01-2010, 10:12 AM
maybe he's just tired of your wittle whining :(

GoJet troll.

minimwage4
07-01-2010, 10:30 AM
What will this mean for current TSA? It's interesting how two regionals that are in deep contract talks with their pilots, claiming they have no money to spend, are making deals to buy up airlines. What a failure for the RLA and the NMB.

Not good for negotiations, they just added one more whipsaw. Although it would still be VERY hard to believe Hulas would walk away from a 30+airplane contract with UA and US just to not have to deal with TSA pilots. What this does give the company is a little bit of credibility although I'm sure everyone would strike if they had the chance. Looks like the certificates will remain separate, Compass at least. In light of these new developments the MECs need to get together and form some kind of merger agreement, if you thought Gojet and TSA was a big whipsaw, try 3 certificates competing against each other and for 75+ seat airplanes.

And yes, my condolences to Compass pilots.

BoilerUP
07-01-2010, 10:37 AM
Compass and TSA are both ALPA...and I'm sure there are plenty of TSA alums working at Compass.

There's no reason whatsoever that both airlines' pilot groups couldn't work together for the benefit of BOTH.

undflyboy06
07-01-2010, 10:38 AM
This definitely gives me the urge to tell TSA to go screw themselves if they do ever decide to recall. I'm willing to give up my recall rights to keep my morals and dignity in check. I would feel bad going back to TSA, becasue I know years down the line Compass won't be the same airline anymore due to TSA managment. I dread the day when their contract expires. Plus I don't wan't to have a target on me if I do decide to go back, especially with the Compass pilots.

At least on the bright side Gojets is no longer Hulas's baby, Compass is. :rolleyes:

Bamauofa
07-01-2010, 10:40 AM
will the Compass pilots now be the Hulas Scabs? or will this be the motivation for all TSH pilots to unite and force Hulas to agree to a descent contract.

RiddleEagle18
07-01-2010, 10:41 AM
except that Hulas already won in court saying TSA and GoJets are different companies all while sharing HQ's and multiple other departments. It will be near impossible to force a single carrier petition and merged list with compass having its own HQ, maint, dispatch, sched. etc. :-(

minimwage4
07-01-2010, 10:43 AM
Compass and TSA are both ALPA...and I'm sure there are plenty of TSA alums working at Compass.

There's no reason whatsoever that both airlines' pilot groups couldn't work together for the benefit of BOTH.

The problem is that Hulas would control them now. I hope you are right though.

minimwage4
07-01-2010, 10:46 AM
except that Hulas already won in court saying TSA and GoJets are different companies all while sharing HQ's and multiple other departments. It will be near impossible to force a single carrier petition and merged list with compass having its own HQ, maint, dispatch, sched. etc. :-(

There is no reason why they couldn't merge the pilots though. You can have separate certificates. Just think of it three certificates competing against each other and two represented by the same union. The other represented by a garbage truck union. :o

undflyboy06
07-01-2010, 10:50 AM
The only horrible thought I have with merging the seniority lists, in my opinion would be the bitterness created among the pilot groups. TSA pilots are the most senior. If the lists were merged the majority of TSA pilots would automatically jump above the Compass Pilots, knocking them down the seniority list by at least a hundred or so. Now, if I was a Compass pilot, I would be royally pi**ed off, and managment would have won.

NoJoy
07-01-2010, 10:53 AM
It will be interesting if TSA and Compass are ran seperatly like SkyWest runs ASA, or if there is going to be a merjer. One would hope that there is no merjer-Compass being a very young airline. Date of hire could be ugly. :eek:

Killer51883
07-01-2010, 10:54 AM
does compass have any sort of scope clause that forces one seniority list for a holding company, ie something like Republic's scope clause

minimwage4
07-01-2010, 10:55 AM
The only horrible thought I have with merging the seniority lists, in my opinion would be the bitterness created among the pilot groups. TSA pilots are the most senior. If the lists were merged the majority of TSA pilots would automatically jump above the Compass Pilots, knocking them down the seniority list by at least a hundred or so. Now, if I was a Compass pilot, I would be royally pi**ed off, and managment would have won.

That is what management is counting on, to have pilots at each others throats. What matters more is the big picture. There is major whipsaw here. As far as the seniority, they could put in provisions like seat locks.

AtlCSIP
07-01-2010, 11:43 AM
Of course he can afford to pay you more..............he just doesn't WANT to.

He doesn't HAVE to pay any more. You (we) continue to work for what he offers. Law of supply and demand. When the pilot shortage happens, however, ............ (Yeah, I know. There ain't one!)

mking84
07-01-2010, 11:46 AM
So let me get this straight. TSA can't afford to give the pilots a new contract because they're not making much money anymore. The NMB allows them to stall contract negotiations for pretty much forever. Hulas threatens to shut down TSA is we strike. Hulas spends $20 million to buy Compass.

Two things seem clear to me.
1) Hulas CAN afford to pay us more
2) Now if we strike, he probably will shut TSA down because he has cash coming in from Compass and can afford the hit he'd take on TSA.

I'm beyond angry at this RLA/NMB nonsense. If TSA isn't given an immediate proffer after this news, I'm gonna lose my mind.


What did you expect. Has hulas EVER DONE SOMETHING GOOD FOR YOU GUYS!!!! christ!

Zapata
07-01-2010, 12:04 PM
<Insert any regional here> troll.

There, fixed it for ya.

Zapata
07-01-2010, 12:06 PM
will the Compass pilots now be the Hulas Scabs? or will this be the motivation for all TSH pilots to unite and force Hulas to agree to a descent contract.

Unfortunately, a Freudian slip that is today's reality

NoStep
07-01-2010, 12:31 PM
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c.


Are ya'll thinking that Compass won't be an affiliate after the sale? Will Hulas give up a multi-year contract affiliation with Delta?

The way I read that was if the feeder is sold off to go to a competitor airline with no reciprocal agreement, then flow-through can be terminated.
Am I missing something?

Also, it seems to be the trend to acquire multiple cert's. (a-la-Republic) to whipsaw, (Hulas' favorite pastime), so merger with TSA seems unlikely...no?

My condolences to the Compass and Mesaba pilots...the only reason we seem to have been left standing @ OH is because DAL overpaid for us and will never recoup that.

Purpleanga
07-01-2010, 01:20 PM
Also, it seems to be the trend to acquire multiple cert's. (a-la-Republic) to whipsaw, (Hulas' favorite pastime), so merger with TSA seems unlikely...no?
\.


Whatever happens, the pilots will strike to end these current negotiations. Now that everyone knows officially that the company is full of crap about their financials, they can either sweeten the pot with an offer or prepare to shut down Trans States. The pilots are sick and tired that this company is prospering by the hard work of TSA pilots while treating them like they are less than human. They just told all of us that they had no money and the company was not making much profits. Now they buy Compass? ***?

250 or point 65
07-01-2010, 01:36 PM
does compass have any sort of scope clause that forces one seniority list for a holding company, ie something like Republic's scope clause

The contract provides protection for the Company as in Compass airlines. It seems to construct what Compass can and cannot do, but makes little mention of what a Successor can do beside requiring it to abide by the contract.

Confused
07-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Unfortunately, a Freudian slip that is today's reality

I don't think many people on here will get your joke, people that spell merger with a J and add an S to the word decent that is.

Fishfreighter
07-01-2010, 05:17 PM
How can anyone be an affiliate of NWA when NWA doesn't exist anymore?

nightice
07-01-2010, 05:25 PM
How can anyone be an affiliate of NWA when NWA doesn't exist anymore?

On a side note: Mesaba's website has been updated to reflect "...a subsidary of Pinnacle Airlines....", whereas Compass' website has not been updated..yet.

Check Essential
07-01-2010, 06:04 PM
How can anyone be an affiliate of NWA when NWA doesn't exist anymore?

Delta assumed the flow-through LOAs as part of the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement following the merger. So NWA equals DAL.

If they've been sold, they are no longer "affiliates" of DAL.

ASAnotASAP
07-01-2010, 06:09 PM
Expressjet is also for sale now. Just saw it on Craigslist.

atrdriver
07-01-2010, 06:23 PM
Were you browsing the "casual encounters" section by chance?

Positive_Rate
07-01-2010, 06:51 PM
On a side note: Mesaba's website has been updated to reflect "...a subsidary of Pinnacle Airlines....", whereas Compass' website has not been updated..yet.

I noticed that, too. Strange.

Copperhed51
07-01-2010, 07:08 PM
He doesn't HAVE to pay any more. You (we) continue to work for what he offers. Law of supply and demand. When the pilot shortage happens, however, ............ (Yeah, I know. There ain't one!)

He doesn't have to pay us more because we are not allowed to strike. Nearly every pilot there voted to strike but they're just not allowed to yet. There will be a pilot shortage at TSA eventually, it's just gonna be very sudden and it's gonna go from lean staffing to no staffing (aka a strike). Yes we all took crappy regional jobs that pay peanuts but I believe the majority of us are working to fix that as much as we can within the scope of the RLA.

SuperPilotJesse
07-01-2010, 07:24 PM
Were you browsing the "casual encounters" section by chance?
Can we not mention craigslist?

TurboDVR42
07-01-2010, 07:27 PM
Is it TSA that bought them?
OR
GoJet? (i know same parent company...rt?)
Will the pilot lists be merged?
Also, the furloughed guys be called back now that Compass is hiring?
What about the guys in the pool for TSA, that were hired in 08?

johnso29
07-01-2010, 07:32 PM
Can we not mention craigslist?

It's not that. This mod jacked up and mistakenly deleted the post. It's been restored. Sorry for the confusion.:o

Copperhed51
07-01-2010, 07:34 PM
Is it TSA that bought them?
OR
GoJet? (i know same parent company...rt?)
Will the pilot lists be merged?
Also, the furloughed guys be called back now that Compass is hiring?
What about the guys in the pool for TSA, that were hired in 08?

TSH (Trans States Holdings) which is the holding company that owns TSA and GoJets is who bought them.

TurboDVR42
07-01-2010, 07:46 PM
Got it. So basicly no changes for tsa guys on the street untill tsa(not compass)needs pilots

Purpleanga
07-01-2010, 07:49 PM
Got it. So basicly no changes for tsa guys on the street untill tsa(not compass)needs pilots

Nothing is certain, the MECs will be working closely. The only thing that is confirmed is that Compass will be run separately.

TSA negotiations are still ongoing but I have a feeling they'll be coming to an end soon.

ToiletDuck
07-01-2010, 08:55 PM
Also - sell Compass for just $20.5M?

What does Compass really have?

Salukipilot4590
07-01-2010, 09:01 PM
What does Compass really have?

Pretty much the training and HQ building, website, MX, operating certificate, and contract to Delta.

When I first saw the news 20M sounded like a complete steal until I thought about what Compass ACTUALLY owns.

Blkflyer
07-01-2010, 10:18 PM
Strait from the horses mouth...

Delta Air Lines Reaches Definitive Agreements to Sell Mesaba, Compass Airline Subsidiaries - Jul 1, 2010 (http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1063)


My condolences Compass...

Please someone tell me that this is a Cruel April fools joke in July. or please tell me I am dreaming and will wake up from a Bad Dream...

*** over

NoJoy
07-01-2010, 10:33 PM
Please someone tell me that this is a Cruel April fools joke in July. or please tell me I am dreaming and will wake up from a Bad Dream...

*** over

You are in a "Daymare" GoJets bought Compass. ;)

NoStep
07-02-2010, 07:15 AM
Delta assumed the flow-through LOAs as part of the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement following the merger. So NWA equals DAL.

If they've been sold, they are no longer "affiliates" of DAL.

Huh?!:confused:
Then why even state that in the LOA? By your interpretation then, any sale of Compass would make them, "...no longer affiliates"...unless DAL sold it to themselves.

An affiliation, by definition, doesn't presume ownership. I'm affiliated with my wife...ownership hasn't been negotiated yet, though. (I'm not trying to argue with you...just have some friends over there and envision a multi-year, American Eagle-type lawsuit for them to secure flow-through to get away from Uncle Hulas).

Also, Im seeing alot of people say "Delta hated the flow-through so much they sold XJ and CPZ". I didn't know DAL really gave a crap where they got their new hires? The bean-counters saw they could loan money to themselves for better than market terms, while shedding a couple owneds from their books. I'm not so sure the flow throughs had that much weight in these decisions.

Trying to understand this...(failing miserably)

Purpleanga
07-02-2010, 09:20 AM
What did RL say in the Q and A document?

What do people make of the TSA/Compass pilot joint press release? Alot of warm and fuzzy wording in there especially by Cpt Prater.

johnso29
07-02-2010, 09:25 AM
Huh?!:confused:
Then why even state that in the LOA? By your interpretation then, any sale of Compass would make them, "...no longer affiliates"...unless DAL sold it to themselves.

An affiliation, by definition, doesn't presume ownership. I'm affiliated with my wife...ownership hasn't been negotiated yet, though. (I'm not trying to argue with you...just have some friends over there and envision a multi-year, American Eagle-type lawsuit for them to secure flow-through to get away from Uncle Hulas).

Also, Im seeing alot of people say "Delta hated the flow-through so much they sold XJ and CPZ". I didn't know DAL really gave a crap where they got their new hires? The bean-counters saw they could loan money to themselves for better than market terms, while shedding a couple owneds from their books. I'm not so sure the flow throughs had that much weight in these decisions.

Trying to understand this...(failing miserably)

The whole affiliate thing doesn't really matter. The LOA states if the flow becomes unavailable the RJs will be reduced to 85.

RJSAviator76
07-02-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm affiliated with my wife...ownership hasn't been negotiated yet, though.

Sorry buddy, the ownership has been the decided the minute you said "I do."

Now she has you by the balls, and if you squawk too much, she'll leave and take your retirement, half your paycheck, child support, and then some. :D


Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

JungleBus
07-02-2010, 10:39 AM
The whole affiliate thing doesn't really matter. The LOA states if the flow becomes unavailable the RJs will be reduced to 85.LETTER 2006-14
(76-Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through Agreement)
LETTER OF AGREEMENT
between
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
and
THE AIR LINE PILOTS
in the service of
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
as represented by
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
This Letter of Agreement is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of
Title II of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between Northwest Airlines, Inc.,
(hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Air Line Pilots in the service of Northwest
Airlines, Inc. as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter
referred to as “ALPA”).
WHEREAS, the Company and ALPA have agreed to certain modifications of the
NWA/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Pilots Agreement”) in furtherance of the
Company’s effort to improve liquidity and profitability and successfully restructure its capital
structure and operations and reorganize through the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process; and
WHEREAS, the Modifications embodied in this Letter of Agreement pertain to the
agreement of the parties to permit the Company to establish a Feeder Carrier Affiliate pursuant
to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d) of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement (hereinafter
“Feeder Carrier Affiliate ”), and
WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to a 76 Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through term
sheet and are desirous of reflecting the terms thereof in this Letter of Agreement.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as
follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and
at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number
together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the
Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that
it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate
new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier
without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. upper cap of
90) The ramifications of a stoppage of flow down rights of NWA furloughees
(both current and future laid off NWA pilots, including new hire NWA pilots
from Feeder Carrier Affiliate and elsewhere) in this circumstance are addressed in
Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. reduced to lower cap of 55).

XtremeF150
07-02-2010, 09:25 PM
LETTER 2006-14
(76-Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through Agreement)
LETTER OF AGREEMENT
between
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
and
THE AIR LINE PILOTS
in the service of
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
as represented by
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
This Letter of Agreement is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of
Title II of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between Northwest Airlines, Inc.,
(hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Air Line Pilots in the service of Northwest
Airlines, Inc. as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter
referred to as “ALPA”).
WHEREAS, the Company and ALPA have agreed to certain modifications of the
NWA/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Pilots Agreement”) in furtherance of the
Company’s effort to improve liquidity and profitability and successfully restructure its capital
structure and operations and reorganize through the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process; and
WHEREAS, the Modifications embodied in this Letter of Agreement pertain to the
agreement of the parties to permit the Company to establish a Feeder Carrier Affiliate pursuant
to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d) of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement (hereinafter
“Feeder Carrier Affiliate ”), and
WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to a 76 Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through term
sheet and are desirous of reflecting the terms thereof in this Letter of Agreement.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as
follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and
at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number
together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the
Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that
it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate
new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier
without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. upper cap of
90) The ramifications of a stoppage of flow down rights of NWA furloughees
(both current and future laid off NWA pilots, including new hire NWA pilots
from Feeder Carrier Affiliate and elsewhere) in this circumstance are addressed in
Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. reduced to lower cap of 55).

Ahh my head always hurts trying to understand contracts. I could see a lawyer bend this 10 different ways. I really hope that they can find a way to pull the cap down with the flow...at least this would have a good outcome at DAL and maybe mean more mainline jobs so i can vacate this crap.

cornbeef007
07-02-2010, 11:59 PM
What does Compass really have?

Come on guys.........does anyone here really know how the value of a company is calculated? It's not just the value of the assets.

Take your yearly net profit, multiply by three, then add the assets.

20.5 just does not add up...

Captain Tony
07-03-2010, 05:07 AM
Why are a bunch of PILOTS acting like labor attorneys, accountants, and MBAs? Quit arguing about what you think is going to happen and and what YOUR interpretation of the agreements is. Just fly the stinking planes. Nothing will be decided on the message boards.

Phuz
07-03-2010, 05:23 AM
Why are a bunch of PILOTS acting like labor attorneys, accountants, and MBAs? Quit arguing about what you think is going to happen and and what YOUR interpretation of the agreements is. Just fly the stinking planes. Nothing will be decided on the message boards.

:cool: Hi, you must be new here.

JungleBus
07-03-2010, 05:25 AM
Why are a bunch of PILOTS acting like labor attorneys, accountants, and MBAs? Quit arguing about what you think is going to happen and and what YOUR interpretation of the agreements is. Just fly the stinking planes. Nothing will be decided on the message boards.

If something this cataclysmic had just happened at SKYW I guarantee you'd be right here with us. When huge consequences for your career and life hang in the balance, nobody wants to go for 60 days with no clues of what's going to happen. Besides a lack of compassion in your post, you also appear to share management's contempt for the intelligence level of your peers.

Captain Tony
07-03-2010, 05:29 AM
If something this cataclysmic had just happened at SKYW I guarantee you'd be right here with us. When huge consequences for your career and life hang in the balance, nobody wants to go for 60 days with no clues of what's going to happen. Besides a lack of compassion in your post, you also appear to share management's contempt for the intelligence level of your peers.

So fill the time with a bunch of mental masturbation of what you all THINK might happen? That's why management is laughing at all of us! "Put 'em in a ring and watch them fight".


You don't get it. I understand this a big deal to all involved, but this always happens, and it makes pilots look like fools to outsiders. We think we know it all about every field out there, even though most have a fake degree from some place like Embry-Riddle. We don't know it all, and it's asinine to sit here trying to "prove" each other wrong. Just tryig to point this out. It's why no one takes us seriously.

Phuz
07-03-2010, 05:32 AM
You don't get it. I understand this a big deal to all involved, but this always happens, and it makes pilots look like fools to outsiders. We think we know it all about every field out there, even though most have a fake degree from some place like Embry-Riddle. We don't know it all, and it's asinine to sit here trying to "prove" each other wrong. Just tryig to point this out. It's why no one takes us seriously.

Ok you pointed it out.

Thanks.

Back to the discussion now.

hockeypilot44
07-03-2010, 06:54 AM
So fill the time with a bunch of mental masturbation of what you all THINK might happen? That's why management is laughing at all of us! "Put 'em in a ring and watch them fight".


You don't get it. I understand this a big deal to all involved, but this always happens, and it makes pilots look like fools to outsiders. We think we know it all about every field out there, even though most have a fake degree from some place like Embry-Riddle. We don't know it all, and it's asinine to sit here trying to "prove" each other wrong. Just tryig to point this out. It's why no one takes us seriously.

I didn't go to Embry-Riddle, but it is an accredited school making the degree real. It might not be very useful outside of aviation, but neither are many other degrees.

NoStep
07-03-2010, 06:55 AM
So fill the time with a bunch of mental masturbation of what you all THINK might happen? That's why management is laughing at all of us! "Put 'em in a ring and watch them fight".


You don't get it. I understand this a big deal to all involved, but this always happens, and it makes pilots look like fools to outsiders. We think we know it all about every field out there, even though most have a fake degree from some place like Embry-Riddle. We don't know it all, and it's asinine to sit here trying to "prove" each other wrong. Just tryig to point this out. It's why no one takes us seriously.

CaptainTony,(love the parrothead screen-name, btw), no disrespect intended, but, airline crews have always taken to rumors and wild conjecture. Just get a mid-sequence disruption, and watch everyone second guess what crew sched. will do. Hell, isn't APC just an electronic rumor-mill where even you have posted speculations?

And some of us ARE lawyers, MBA's, accountants who didn't go to Riddle.

That's why I inquired of those pilots the definition of "affiliate" in the CPZ LOA. If they're no longer an affiliate (even though they have an agreement to continue flying for DAL to 2020), then flow-through is dead and DAL loses alot of 76-seaters. (question for pilot/lawyers)

Airlines are run by bean-counters, and it makes no sense to capitulate to some mid-level managers in Hiring Dept's. who, "don't like the flow-through". It's doubtful the added training cycles associated with the flow would cost more than losing all that cheap lift. (question for pilot/accountants)

But...crazier things have happened

Captain Tony
07-03-2010, 07:40 AM
CaptainTony,(love the parrothead screen-name, btw), no disrespect intended, but, airline crews have always taken to rumors and wild conjecture. Just get a mid-sequence disruption, and watch everyone second guess what crew sched. will do. Hell, isn't APC just an electronic rumor-mill where even you have posted speculations?

And some of us ARE lawyers, MBA's, accountants who didn't go to Riddle.

That's why I inquired of those pilots the definition of "affiliate" in the CPZ LOA. If they're no longer an affiliate (even though they have an agreement to continue flying for DAL to 2020), then flow-through is dead and DAL loses alot of 76-seaters. (question for pilot/lawyers)

Airlines are run by bean-counters, and it makes no sense to capitulate to some mid-level managers in Hiring Dept's. who, "don't like the flow-through". It's doubtful the added training cycles associated with the flow would cost more than losing all that cheap lift. (question for pilot/accountants)

But...crazier things have happened

You do make a good point...

Gajre539
07-03-2010, 08:34 AM
The only people that I see bad mouthing college degrees or ERAU are the ones that overpaid by going to the main campuses or those that don't have a college degree. There's nothing fake about any college degree that is from an accredited university. Compass requires a 4 year college degree, and at one point asked on their application if applicants had a degree in Aeronautical Science.

I don't understand why there is so much hatred among the aviation community on APC. Pilots bad mouthing pilots from other airlines (GoJets for example) and aviation universities, all while hiding behind a screen name. Stuff that is said on these forums would never be said to another pilot or a group of pilots in person. :(

BoilerUP
07-03-2010, 09:00 AM
Stuff that is said on these forums would never be said to another pilot or a group of pilots in person. :(

If you think people don't make fun of ERAU or GoJets to the face of ERAU graduates or GoJet employees, you'd be mistaken - seen both with my own eyes.

JungleBus
07-03-2010, 11:03 AM
If you think people don't make fun of ERAU or GoJets to the face of ERAU graduates or GoJet employees, you'd be mistaken - seen both with my own eyes.

One of these is not like the other. :cool:

BoilerUP
07-03-2010, 11:31 AM
Indeed - still seen them both happen though!

I wish I had a nickel for every time somebody called me a "Purduebee" to my face so it happens to most every collegiate program graduate.

Rock752000
07-03-2010, 12:49 PM
Indeed - still seen them both happen though!

I wish I had a nickel for every time somebody called me a "Purduebee" to my face so it happens to most every collegiate program graduate.

Envy lurks in all corners of our minds and careers... Yes, I am a Riddle puke, and yes, I'm thankful I was fortunate enough to attend there. Can't speak for "P-U," though some of my best colleagues in aviation are Purduebees, but ERAU had some of the best staff, facilities, and hands-down best equipment one could imagine for getting into this crazy career field. Like anywhere else, your roots are where your network starts. Do they have a way to go on teaching the realities of the industry and the challenges we'll really face once we start out at the bottom of the 'hill' making less than a year's tuition? ABSOLUTELY

My apologies for the insert, back to the shady Hula-hoop aquisition, flow up/down discussion that got de-railed... :D

AirWillie
07-03-2010, 12:57 PM
, but ERAU had some of the best staff, facilities, and hands-down best equipment one could imagine for getting into this crazy career field. D

What the "heck" does that mean?

You had courses on how to get food stamps and unemployment? Courses on how to stay healthy on ramen noodles? Or how to get a good nights sleep in the back of an airplane?

Rock752000
07-03-2010, 01:11 PM
Training, education, experience. Maybe you should read the entire post before making a smiteful remark. Feel free to flame bait somewhere else.

Atreyu
07-03-2010, 04:03 PM
What the "heck" does that mean?

You had courses on how to get food stamps and unemployment? Courses on how to stay healthy on ramen noodles? Or how to get a good nights sleep in the back of an airplane?

Where did you go to school, troll?

Atreyu
07-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Oh no, not a "Purduebee", or a "Riddler"!!!! *gasp* Isn't that considered racist?!?!

CaptainCarl
07-04-2010, 04:40 AM
...courses on how to get food stamps and unemployment? Courses on how to stay healthy on ramen noodles? Or how to get a good nights sleep in the back of an airplane?

That's what GoJet is for ;)

JungleBus
07-04-2010, 06:21 AM
Speaking of our scabby new "brethern," anyone wanna take bets on how long till CPZ mgmt tries to fire one of our CAs for denying a GJ'er the JS? Long history of that at TSA.

AirWillie
07-04-2010, 08:48 AM
Speaking of our scabby new "brethern," anyone wanna take bets on how long till CPZ mgmt tries to fire one of our CAs for denying a GJ'er the JS? Long history of that at TSA.


Uh yes this might be the most essential question of the decade, even of the century. :rolleyes:

I don't think any TSA has been fired for denying GJ a jumpseat 5 YEARS AGO

grupspdmode
08-01-2010, 04:38 PM
any new news regarding the cps flow? or any new information coming out of TSH about what their future plans are for CPS/TSA/GJ? seems awful quiet regarding the sale of cps and what tsh plans are?

flynavyj
08-01-2010, 06:15 PM
I've been out for a little while now, but because TSA is privately owned, they have no responsibility to EVER tell you what they're thinking. That's one of the pros .... and cons of being a privately owned company.

To the whole "Purdue, Riddle, Etc" conversation, the truth is it doesn't matter one bit. I've flown with people from each of those places, and plenty of folks who went to mom and pop flight schools. What's the end result? Every single one of them can shoot an ILS approach that's coupled to a Flight director just as well as the other guy. The vast majority of pilots have excellent decision making capability, judgment, and foresight, and i see no relation in this thought process and ability to command an aircraft being related to where they went to school. The only negative i've seen come out of Riddle or ATP for that matter is the debt load. With entry level wages that are near poverty, i don't know how folks plan on paying off the debts of this education on the pay scales most regionals have in place. I was fortunate enough to get out of the airline biz, and into a well paying career field. I still have tons of co-workers who are Riddle and Purdue grads, and all seem to be doing equally as fine in the office as they did in the plane...I still do give them crap about it, but that's what happens when you work with a bunch of pilots who no longer fly airplanes...I guess old habits die hard, just don't get to serious about it....PLEASE!

Purpleanga
08-02-2010, 02:27 PM
any new news regarding the cps flow? or any new information coming out of TSH about what their future plans are for CPS/TSA/GJ? seems awful quiet regarding the sale of cps and what tsh plans are?

The CPS/TSA MECs have been talking about the future of the two ALPA carriers. Obviously the flow through is a major issue at CPS but as of right now, nothing has come of anything, they're just talking. TSA is deep in contract talks, so that also complicates things.

TSA management just came out with a threatning letter that pointed out that if we don't accept the current offer, they'll shut down operations. The current offer, along with improvement in work rules, did state that we will get the MRJs with separate pay along with preferential hiring for TS furloughs but as far as we're concerned there was nothing in the letter that indicated that these were not just empty promises, that they wouldn't replace TSA anyways down the road. Nothing on there about plans for 3 different pilot groups, as of right now their plan is to keep things the way they are. One certificate furloughing while the other hiring, is the name of their game. Hopefully we can get this problem sorted out but it's going to require pilots to be unselfish and work together.

Copperhed51
08-02-2010, 02:45 PM
The CPS/TSA MECs have been talking about the future of the two ALPA carriers. Obviously the flow through is a major issue at CPS but as of right now, nothing has come of anything, they're just talking. TSA is deep in contract talks, so that also complicates things.

TSA management just came out with a threatning letter that pointed out that if we don't accept the current offer, they'll shut down operations. The current offer, along with improvement in work rules, did state that we will get the MRJs with separate pay along with preferential hiring for TS furloughs but as far as we're concerned there was nothing in the letter that indicated that these were not just empty promises, that they wouldn't replace TSA anyways down the road. Nothing on there about plans for 3 different pilot groups.

Just for clarification, it promised that TSA would receive the first 10 MRJ's (minimum). That is assuming they ever actually take delivery.

Purpleanga
08-02-2010, 02:48 PM
Just for clarification, it promised that TSA would receive the first 10 MRJ's (minimum). That is assuming they ever actually take delivery.

Yes exactly. The MRJ thing is just to get our attention, that is still at a minimum 4 years away. A lot can happen by then.

Palmtree Pilot
08-02-2010, 03:11 PM
Yes exactly. The MRJ thing is just to get our attention, that is still at a minimum 4 years away. A lot can happen by then.

This is the third maybe fourth time in 11 years that Hulas is in a Head-on battle against the pilot group and contract issues. He has won all of them so far, and knows that the pilot group will give in before they get everything they fully deserve. Just voting to strike will not do it this time either; Infact nothing will work to get you guys and gals everything you deserve and have been owed for 6 years. He has the upper hand unless that group decides to be the new pioneers in the regional industry and truely fight for what they deserve or let it die on the vine.

I say "shut'er down!" Or take another contract extension, cause that will solve everything.

Good luck people,

PtP

Phuz
08-02-2010, 04:38 PM
So Hulas is promising TSA the first 10 MRJs if they accept the contract thats on the table?

Talk about dangling the carrot.

The MRJs will go to the lowest bidder in a 3-way race to the bottom. It doesn't matter what uncle Huly promised you in a letter, he has no intention of honoring it.

Purpleanga
08-02-2010, 05:45 PM
Just voting to strike will not do it this time either; Infact nothing will work to get you guys and gals everything you deserve and have been owed for 6 years. He has the upper hand unless that group decides to be the new pioneers in the regional industry and truely fight for what they deserve or let it die on the vine.


Hulas has a history of threatening pilots with closing the operation. They did the same before signing the current contract. Hulas will have the leverage when he can actually shut down TSA and satisfy his contractual obligations to UA and US, very unlikely. They're going to give us MRJs but they have no problem shutting it down right now, I don't think anybody is buying their threat it's pretty sad and pathetic actually. As it's been said before, the union needs to read between the lines to understand what this company is really offering. And with all the whipsaw at TSH, it's very unlikely that there will be a TA with no job protection. They can promise all the MRJs they'd like.

JayHub
08-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Two quick ones...

1. I've drawn a blank, what was the last regional airline to shut down OPS because they did'nt want to negotiate with the pilot group?

2. I haven't seen this 'Shut'er Down' Letter, but in any case do the members of the 'TSA Management Negotiating Team' or anyone in TSA Management for that matter have job protection with TSH? I mean these guys are saying 'We'll shut'er down if you strike'....well...Hmmm..OK....so are they 'The Management' basically negotiating themselves out of a job?..or, do they plan on joining/bumping the management types from Compass or Gojet to the street?