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MNPS 50N50W
07-18-2010, 08:03 AM
These companies seem to be run by the British EXPATS, running by the JAR system of Hiring and training Pilots. It seems that American Pilots are at a disadvantage when being considered for these positions. One wanders why that Is so.. and can something be done to change that.


brownie
07-18-2010, 08:21 AM
These companies seem to be run by the British EXPATS, running by the JAR system of Hiring and training Pilots. It seems that American Pilots are at a disadvantage when being considered for these positions. One wanders why that Is so.. and can something be done to change that.

I never understood how brits or anyone else can come over and work at our airlines but we can't easily do the same.:rolleyes: and some complain how sh..y it is over here and how wonderful the airlines are back in thier home.:mad:

Flyby1206
07-18-2010, 09:05 AM
The rest of the world views the FAA ATP as a joke, which it is, as opposed to the grueling JAA ATPL process. I can understand why some foreign carriers prefer JAA licenses as opposed to someone who completed the FAA ATP.


MNPS 50N50W
07-18-2010, 09:20 AM
The rest of the world views the FAA ATP as a joke, which it is, as opposed to the grueling JAA ATPL process. I can understand why some foreign carriers prefer JAA licenses as opposed to someone who completed the FAA ATP.
What grueling standards will allow a Pilot with 300 hours an ATP, and Type rating on 737. I think the FAA standard is based on building experience through flight hours, and training. Most of these Pilots come here to the USA (Arizona and Florida) to build those 300 flight hours, get their FAA Licenses, then return home just to take the written part of their JAR... Give me the experience over the books every time of the day...

Flyby1206
07-18-2010, 09:41 AM
What grueling standards will allow a Pilot with 300 hours an ATP, and Type rating on 737. I think the FAA standard is based on building experience through flight hours, and training. Most of these Pilots come here to the USA (Arizona and Florida) to build those 300 flight hours, get their FAA Licenses, then return home just to take the written part of their JAR... Give me the experience over the books every time of the day...

Here are some study guides (http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl/jar-fcl_atpla_frame.html) to the written portion of the JAA ATPL test. I've only heard of 1 person who passed all 14 exams on the first shot.

I'd rather have a 300hr cadet who completed an intense selection process to enter the Lufthansa/BA/etc cadet program as opposed to some goober who got mom and dad to put up $30k to get his/her FAA licenses and putz around in a C152 to build 1500hrs total time.

I dont want to turn this into another thread about experience vs training, so lets just move on and agree to disagree on the topic.

IQuitEagle
07-18-2010, 02:44 PM
These companies seem to be run by the British EXPATS, running by the JAR system of Hiring and training Pilots. It seems that American Pilots are at a disadvantage when being considered for these positions. One wanders why that Is so.. and can something be done to change that.

Why the bitterness? And what makes you say that US pilots are at a disadvantage? Please specify.

There are a fair share flying for Emirates, Cathay, etc. The fact that those airlines don't want to hire all their pilots from one part of the world is a good policy, I think.

As to your point about the perception of some airlines being run by "British expats," that is understandable, considering the history of the Mideast and places like Hong Kong! Perhaps you should look into it, especially if you are interested in a job over there.

MNPS 50N50W
07-18-2010, 04:09 PM
Why the bitterness? And what makes you say that US pilots are at a disadvantage? Please specify.

There are a fair share flying for Emirates, Cathay, etc. The fact that those airlines don't want to hire all their pilots from one part of the world is a good policy, I think.

As to your point about the perception of some airlines being run by "British expats," that is understandable, considering the history of the Mideast and places like Hong Kong! Perhaps you should look into it, especially if you are interested in a job over there.

U.S Pilots are at a significant disadvantage with those Middle Eastern Companies. I was at the Emirates road show the other day, and yes, this was an admission of the Captain, and the HR rep from Emirates. I hear that they are somewhat desperate for people at this time, that's why they (Qatar and Emirates) are here trying to recruit U.S Pilots. Furthermore, I suggest you read some of the comments on PPRNU, If you want to really gage what's happening in that arena.

ea500driver
07-18-2010, 04:20 PM
U.S Pilots are at a significant disadvantage with those Middle Eastern Companies. I was at the Emirates road show the other day, and yes, this was an admission of the Captain, and the HR rep from Emirates. I hear that they are somewhat desperate for people at this time, that's why they (Qatar and Emirates) are here trying to recruit U.S Pilots. Furthermore, I suggest you read some of the comments on PPRNU, If you want to really gage what's happening in that arena.

Yes, I completely agree with the posting of MNP50N50W. I was at an Emirates road show when the statement was made about the Disadvantages of USA Pilots. Furthermore, I thought It was rather unusual for them to have an age 52 limitation for new hire F/O's with excellent heavy jet time, when their initial contract is 5 years. HMMMM

bubi352
07-18-2010, 05:27 PM
I am a dual FAA and JAA ATPL license holder. The JAA system is not hard but it is a pain in the a$$. It's essentially based on the RAF system so the tests and medical is meant to root out the bad crop. It doesn't make you a better pilot but I can tell you that I have met some pretty damn smart pilots across the pond. But do you need to be a physics engineer to fly an Airbus?

Typhoonpilot
07-19-2010, 04:01 AM
The rest of the world views the FAA ATP as a joke, which it is, as opposed to the grueling JAA ATPL process. I can understand why some foreign carriers prefer JAA licenses as opposed to someone who completed the FAA ATP.


I would tend to agree to the first part of your statement. It is true that many parts of the world look down upon the FAA ATP. However, that is only from the theoretical standpoint. It is quite true that the FAA ATP written is a joke and that the JAA writtens are quite difficult. However, being able to calculate that drift rate of an uncaged gyro is meaningless when it comes to flying modern aircraft.

What I see from extensive experience operating worldwide is that the FAA rated pilots tend to have better handling skills than their European brethren as well as better systems knowledge. That is for two reasons. One is that FAA rated pilots tend to come from a strong general aviation background and probably flew the first 2000 hours of their career without ever using an autopilot. Secondly the U.S. aviation system actively encourages hand flying skills and visual approaches. This makes for a pilot who can actually fly an airplane. In regards to systems knowledge that is from the historical use of the type rating oral where an FAA examiner will ask the applicant to explain all the systems switch by switch from the overhead panel.

The JAA pilots tend to concentrate on theoretical knowledge and managment skills. I would say that the JAA pilots have better overall management skills and deeper understanding of weather and performance than their American counterparts. However the practice of a multiple choice written exam for the systems portion of a type rating leads to a rather shallow understanding of specific aircraft systems. I've also flown with many JAA rated pilots who are scared to hand fly the aircraft or fly visual approaches.

In regards to U.S. pilots being at a significant disadvantage at Emirates that is just horse hockey ( no pun intended for the recently departed horse ). There has been some prejudice against Americans over the years, but it doesn't place Americans at any particular disadvantage. The company is quite fair in promotion opportunities within both flight operations and other areas. There are a number of Americans at very senior levels of the company as well as within the flight operations and training roles. There are currently 200+ American pilots at Emirates. Close to 10% of the total pilot population.

I have heard some rather strange stories coming out of Cathay in regards to their anti-Americanism. Funny, considering the company was co-founded by a Yank :rolleyes:




Typhoonpilot

Flyby1206
07-19-2010, 05:50 AM
I would tend to agree to the first part of your statement. It is true that many parts of the world look down upon the FAA ATP. However, that is only from the theoretical standpoint. It is quite true that the FAA ATP written is a joke and that the JAA writtens are quite difficult. However, being able to calculate that drift rate of an uncaged gyro is meaningless when it comes to flying modern aircraft.

Typhoonpilot

Typhoon-
Thanks for the real viewpoint from the world community. I have only been a part of the training/instruction programs on the JAA and FAA sides of things, so your operational view was helpful.

Do you think since most of the large foreign carriers like Emirates are run my Brits/non-US CEOs they place more emphasis on the pilots with a JAA background because that is what they are familiar with? I know tons of FAA pilots are flying overseas, but many seem to agree there is a general atmosphere of superiority from other pilots who went through a non-FAA training background. Maybe they are just insecure because they dont have the real flying skills like we do ;)

B757200ER
07-19-2010, 07:54 AM
Typhoon, I always find your posts informative and very accurate. Excellent post, and I tend to agree with your un-biased assessment.

Cheers!

atpcliff
07-27-2010, 04:54 AM
Hi!

The FAA flying training and written testing is very good. The written testing is NOT as tough as the JAR series of exams.

FAA licensed pilots, on average, like JAA pilots are, on the average, far superior to the average pilots in many countries, mostly because the US and Europe have more resources for flight training (planes, runways, ATC, money to pay for lessons, etc.). The lowest types of pilots are those who pay money, and get a license. Basically, very limited, or possibly even NO written test or flight exam.

If you are a US pilot and want to work abroad...go for it! BUT, be ready for a LOT of differences, and do your best to adapt!

cliff
LFW

yankeefly
07-27-2010, 05:04 AM
Thank you Typhoon for your continued accurate, truthful, unbiased posts.

I owe you a few beers. :cool:

YF

pagey
07-28-2010, 06:34 PM
I would tend to agree to the first part of your statement. It is true that many parts of the world look down upon the FAA ATP. However, that is only from the theoretical standpoint. It is quite true that the FAA ATP written is a joke and that the JAA writtens are quite difficult. However, being able to calculate that drift rate of an uncaged gyro is meaningless when it comes to flying modern aircraft.

What I see from extensive experience operating worldwide is that the FAA rated pilots tend to have better handling skills than their European brethren as well as better systems knowledge. That is for two reasons. One is that FAA rated pilots tend to come from a strong general aviation background and probably flew the first 2000 hours of their career without ever using an autopilot. Secondly the U.S. aviation system actively encourages hand flying skills and visual approaches. This makes for a pilot who can actually fly an airplane. In regards to systems knowledge that is from the historical use of the type rating oral where an FAA examiner will ask the applicant to explain all the systems switch by switch from the overhead panel.

The JAA pilots tend to concentrate on theoretical knowledge and managment skills. I would say that the JAA pilots have better overall management skills and deeper understanding of weather and performance than their American counterparts. However the practice of a multiple choice written exam for the systems portion of a type rating leads to a rather shallow understanding of specific aircraft systems. I've also flown with many JAA rated pilots who are scared to hand fly the aircraft or fly visual approaches.





Typhoonpilot

This is 100% accurate. I teach in a JAA ATPL program here in the US. While there is a "selection" proccess prior to begining training it doesn't weed out anyone. At the end of the day if you can pay for it, you can get a JAA ATPL. The students we get are no better than FAA students. Some are great, some are in the middle, and some are really bad.

The exams may be a little more difficult to pass than the FAA version but they really are pretty useless when it comes to practical application. My students who have completed the exams could easily tell me, lets say, the frequency range of localizers, but are unable to tell me the difference of an ILS to a LOC BC. They could tell me the minimum distance between parallel runways used by airport planners but cannot find the DA or MDA on a plate, nor do they know the difference between the two.

The flying portion is similar. Mostly theory. Little to no systems. Developing actual stick and rudder skills are second to things like procedures, enroute nav, or ATC communication.

Lastly, and this differs I believe from program to program, but at the end of the course that I teach in the students will hold a frozen ATPL with about 180 hours TT and 10 hours of actual PIC. Instead of solo time building we have "SPIC", or supervised PIC. On SPIC flights the instructor rides along and the student logs the PIC time required for the frozen ATPL. So.....when these guys get hired they have made exactly 10 hours of decisions without someone more experienced telling them they are about to kill themselves. Some day they will upgrade to captain with the same 10 hours of decision making under their belts and a 180 hour FO sitting next to them.

Anywho, there are some good things about the JAA programs, but.....If I had to choose between an FAA or a JAA pilot to fly with when the S hits the fan all things the same I take the FAA guy 100% of the time.

olympic
07-29-2010, 11:59 PM
I really can't find anyone to disagree and I have been having this conversation for years now ..
FAA flight training has a much better syllabus but it's theory is lacking when compared to the JARs.

TonyWilliams
07-30-2010, 02:29 PM
In regards to U.S. pilots being at a significant disadvantage at Emirates that is just horse hockey ( no pun intended for the recently departed horse ). There has been some prejudice against Americans over the years, but it doesn't place Americans at any particular disadvantage.


I think that the disadvantage that was mentioned at the LAX Emirates Roadshow was in regards to entry level US airline flying is not a B737 or A320.

So, asking for time in multi-crew jets over 55 tonnes, or 30 tonnes.... most of the regional jets are under both those weights. New US airline recruits don't ever fly B737/A320 "ab initio" (except maybe the US military services). But they do in Europe.