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View Full Version : VOR-Holdings (China)


worldliner777
08-06-2010, 09:39 AM
Anyone has any good information on how VOR-Holdings in China perform as a contract agency?

The quality of their service or lack-there-off?

The contracts that they have are quite good.

Thanks


TonyWilliams
08-06-2010, 09:42 AM
Seriously, this is the better place to post that question:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-45/

OrionFE
08-06-2010, 07:36 PM
Seriously, this is the better place to post that question:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-45/

Why, what is wrong with here?


HSLD
08-06-2010, 07:58 PM
I met the owner of VOR holdings last year in NRT and left with a very favorable impression in terms of him being forthright in his dealings with contract crews. He's is a working line pilot himself (777 Capt.) and was recruiting for A320 positions in China. His son is working one of the contracts and likes it, as does his son's bride. He'll be the first to admit that the expat contract work is not for everyone, and was very up front about what VOR offers, and what they don't.

One thing he said that stuck with me was "Contract flying is very small world, and you can't afford to have a bad reputation." I thought that was pretty enlightened. Call and talk with them, I know he'd answer any question you have. They also have clinics throughout the year, a one-day Q&A to introduce those who are new to contract flying and help them make informed decision before you launch for China.

Not sure if that's the kind of info you were looking for, but I'd put the owner in the "good dude" category.

Typhoonpilot
08-06-2010, 11:19 PM
Anyone has any good information on how VOR-Holdings in China perform as a contract agency?

The quality of their service or lack-there-off?

The contracts that they have are quite good.

Thanks


The contracts they have appear quite good. You need to dig into how they will treat the tax situation for you in China. I've exchanged a few e-mails with Doug and the responses were less than acceptable in regards to how to deal with taxes in China. Kind of the nudge-nudge, wink-wink, don't worry about it answer that leaves one feeling quite vulnerable when the government comes knocking on your door to ask why you haven't paid your taxes.

Hey if you're just doing a one year deal and then leaving the country that might work out okay, but if you want to stay there over the long term it won't work.

On this latest B747 contract they have quite good numbers, but no mention of taxes. So the question is, are those gross numbers or net after taxes? If they are paying your taxes will they provide a tax receipt for you? You'll need that for filing your U.S. income taxes so that you can make a deduction for those foreign taxes paid.

Perhaps Koru can chime in on this as he would know a little more about how it should be done.



Typhoonpilot

rotorhead1026
08-07-2010, 12:51 AM
So the question is, are those gross numbers or net after taxes? If they are paying your taxes will they provide a tax receipt for you? You'll need that for filing your U.S. income taxes so that you can make a deduction for those foreign taxes paid.

Perhaps Koru can chime in on this as he would know a little more about how it should be done.

Typhoonpilot

What you need to do - always - is get good advice from a tax firm that deals with these issues. In the case of no receipts, there often are legal (i. e., perfectly acceptable to the IRS) ways around the problem - it shouldn't be a deal breaker. Have a good tax advisor on the hook before you leave the country and you'll stay out of trouble. I also would like to hear from some China contract types on this subject, but just on the level of background information / experience. Anybody who takes tax advice from pilots is asking for it! :eek:

TonyWilliams
08-07-2010, 03:24 AM
Why, what is wrong with here?

Nothing. I suggested the other website as "better" for the question.

OceanicPilot
08-07-2010, 03:25 AM
Hi All,

I am currently on a contract in China through Wasinc at Shenzhen Airlines. The airline pays the Chinese income taxes so the quoted montly salary is net. I just did my first tax return with a CPA in the States (guys - get a good CPA. Don't do them yourself. Mine charged me a mere $500 to do my extension, state and federal return, and to prepare the paperwork for foreign bank account holdings.) and it was a most pleasing experience. I'm sure different CPA's will tell each of you different things based on their experience and comfort level. Basically after the foreign income exclusion, housing deduction, and not being able to itemize schedule A (cause I didn't have enough there believe it or not) with 2 kids I am getting a refund (after not paying a dime in taxes) from federal and carrying over a tax credit for future years. I owe state a couple hundred bucks.

Shenzhen gives you the tax receipts from the taxes that they pay to the government on your behalf so you can use a portion of those to offset any US taxes you might have (and in my case carry over the credit to future years because my taxable income was zero and the credit wasn't necessary)

I know not all airlines give you the tax receipts but even without them your tax liability should be minimal. If you can get them it's an added bonus for sure.

Just my 2cents.
What you need to do - always - is get good advice from a tax firm that deals with these issues. In the case of no receipts, there often are legal (i. e., perfectly acceptable to the IRS) ways around the problem - it shouldn't be a deal breaker. Have a good tax advisor on the hook before you leave the country and you'll be stay out of trouble. I also would like to hear from some China contract types on this subject, but just on the level of background information / experience. Anybody who takes tax advice from pilots is asking for it! :eek:

worldliner777
08-10-2010, 09:51 AM
Thanks for all the informations and inputs. Just getting as much information as possible for future decision options.

bigsuitcase
08-13-2012, 06:18 PM
Hello all.

I currently work in the states in a Part 91 operation but am getting tired of the lack of quality of life for the salary I am getting. I am willing to spend a few years overseas to make the nice salaries that VOR is offering.

I have been offered a PIC position with the company on a bizjet. I have read some negative things about their operation (they don't let you fly left seat, they are not forthright, etc) and would just like a bit more input before I apply there.

Does anybody have more info on these guys? Know anybody who has actually worked there?

Thanks!

Probe
08-14-2012, 08:52 AM
When I was ready to leave my legacy job in the US over 4 years ago I saw a advertisement for VOR in our flight ops. It was started by somebody from my company in the US with a Chinese partner. Over several emails and conversations, including them demanding that I sign an exclusive contract with them for any contract in China, I realized they were sheisters and stopped talking to them. I never could get a straight answer from them about taxes. Every time I asked I got a different answer.

Fast forward 4 years. I just finished a 2 year contract in China. VOR has a bad rep, and very few pilots on contract. There are far better choices in China. I would recommend Parc Aviation and Wasinc.
I was with Parc, and they are first rate.

bigsuitcase
08-14-2012, 08:40 PM
Wow. Thanks for that input Probe and advise.

Sounds like these China gigs are not worth the hassle or risk.

capmflojo
08-15-2012, 04:55 AM
I am in the process of trying to get on over there. I have been working with VOR holdings and was asked to come for an interview next month. They said, one day in MCO, a short sim, a few questions, and pretty much everybody gets hired. And they have 100% pass rate when in China. From doing a little digging, I have found out that this isn't true, at least for Tianjin. When I talked to the nice folks at WasInc, they were more honest. The interview is 8 to 10 days which includes the CAAC written, checkride, and medical. They didn't bad mouth VOR but they did say, well, if they said come to MCO for 1 day, then that would only shorten my time in China for a day. Also, I had bought a ticket to MCO for this, which now I have credit for, but Tianjin will pay for me to come to China for the whole deal. Also, from what I found out talking to WasInc, VOR will give you a 1099 at the end of the year, and the other companies, which are foreign, do not. I'm not saying don't pay taxes, but with the foreign guys, you have some other options in terms of how much you pay and such.
The people at VOR have seemed nice, but that's only been over email. When I've asked for them to call me, they haven't. And, the interview that they set up for September is the thrid one they've set up for me, and then 2 days prior I get an email saying that the Tianjin guy can't make it so we have to reschedule. The folks as WasInc actually called me so I know that they have real people there.
From what I've read, the contracts are the same with each company, but how much support you get while in China, or where ever varies greatly.

Probe
08-17-2012, 12:36 AM
By doing a "pre-screening" in MCO, you are not saving yourself a single day in China, trust me.

Wasinc has a lot more experience. VOR has such a bad rep they run their business through several websites and names. I do believe they have some pilots on contract in China, but I have not met one. Zero. Wasinc probably has the most.

I worked for a sister airline to Tianjin, BCA. Tianjin is a decent place to work. Once you come to China, pass all the screening in China(very low pass rate for all Chinese airlines), and then come to China to start your job, you still have less than a 50% chance of making it on-line. There are many reasons to not make it, and the Chinese continue to make up new reasons to fail.

Here is a good summary of contract job offers:

If it is a commuting contract, it is because few people want to live there.

If the pay is high, it is because of reason number one, plus no one wants to work there.

There are a very few exceptions to this. ANA is about the only one I can think of.

China? It is an extremely difficult place to get a job. The chance of you passing the screening is extremely low. Talent is not normally the discrimator. Way under 50%, maybe less than 10%. Once you accept the job and come to work, you have less than a 50% chance of making it through a line check, for many different reasons. if you make it on line, your chance of making it through your first contract are maybe 75%. If you want to stay a long time, you will probably have a minor "event" that ends your job, you will fail a medical (you will have probably failed 1/3 of your medicals before this). Very very few pilots last more than 3 years.

I just finished a 2 year contract at BCA. These are the numbers I saw at BCA, Tianjin, and Hainan Air. The process of passing the screening is identical at all airlines in China, as you are meeting the requirements of a CAAC ATPL, and are dealing with the government.

The Chinese contracts pay a lot, for a reason, and they cannot recruit and retain enough pilots. Out of 8 pilots at BCA that have finished their contracts (EVER!), only 3 have renewed. I did not renew. The monthly pay for the new contract would have been 18.6K USD per month, including bonuses, plus overtime. For me, the money was not worth the stress.

FWIW BCA is as good as it gets. The flying was the best I will ever do. On a daily basis I was treated better than I will ever be treated again. And the pay was the highest I will probably ever make.

And I left. And am happy with my decision.

The only pilots that I could recommend a job in China, ANY job in China, is if you have a job to go back to, on short notice, if China does not work out for you. it is probably best for a pilot on a LOA or furlough from a legacy carrier. I am one of these.

KoruPilot
08-28-2012, 01:40 AM
I really enjoyed my time in China. Granted, when I was there it was run by Singaporeans, but I did work for a Chinese airline and we had a Chinese chief pilot.

All the westerners passed the CAAC ATP exam first time around; three of us from Air NZ and all over 80%, just do the proper prep.

Never had an issue with a medical. Yes, they are pedantic, but to that end I wish they were more that way back here in NZ.

Ten day's off were hard days and never moved. Roster was fluid, but as I commuted I didn't care.

Money was great, hotels were great, people were great. I moved back due to family but would have preferred to stay. Most of my American, Kiwi, Aussie, Malay, Canadian, Philippino, Zimbabwean etc. friends there stayed the duration and many are still there.

Disclaimer of course is that with it now run by CK cargo things are not so great. But not so bad either. the Chinese have their way of doing thing's and for westerners it can be a hard swallow, for some impossible. Me, I'd go back in a heart beat. . . for the right contract.