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KoruPilot
08-09-2010, 01:06 AM
I've been speaking to a number of pilots and friends who are looking into Chinese contracts as of late and it is interesting to hear what some of them have been told is on offer.

There is a new offer for Air China Cargo regarding commands on the B744, accepting all Boeing glass experience, wide and narrow body. This is the part where you do your homework and take a very close look at the contract (not the "contract" that you will be presented with first, as an opener, but the one you will sign and be the legal document).

I have spoken to a few of my expat compadres here in China as there are a number with contracts due at my current employer who have been offered the Sun to get them to change airlines. Here's the thing, what is being offered as a command may not exactly be a command, it may be a relief position where you have four stripes but mainly do the radio work (level six will be compulsory pretty quick as I understand it). The money they are showing is at times not the money you will be offered in the actual contract. It may be, but it may not be, so be careful; very, very careful.

Narrow body to narrow body I do not know. It may be exactly what it says. I only know wide body and in China it is a totally different thing.

The local airlines are pretty desperate to fill seats for the next 12 to 24 months. A number of contracts with pilots will be coming due in very short order. The Middle East and parts of Europe are looking for very large numbers of pilots in the short term. TP can chime in here, but I have not seen what is coming down the pipe now happen before, even four years ago. The companies know it and are desperate, the problem is they have to stick to what the CAAC gives them as far as crewing qualifications, and that is one massive grey area. Half the time the CAAC doesn't even know for sure. Seriously, getting a straight answer from your company or the CAAC is not an easy task and will vary. There was apparently a law change recently restricting over 250 ton (yes, I know, that's a big bloody airplane)D/E captains to have previous over 250 ton command. Now I hear that has not been passed. . . maybe.

So, this new contract telling guy's that they will have a command on a B744 out of a narrow body; well, I'm very skeptical. Four bars you may get, but the advertised "Captain" pay and an actual left seat is something that I, in my personal yet educated opinion, think is a line they are feeding people to get them to sign on.

I've spoken recently wit a company looking for B737 pilots to fill a Chinese contract, trying to help them along as they are new to contracting in Asia, and they even had a number of issues that they were not aware of/mistaken by.

Look, I love my flying here and I have a good contract in China. I have very few issues with my company but one big one is that commands were promised and never materialized. I have lot's of wide body jet but no command, and lot's of command but not on a wide body. I will not be looking at a command at any time in the reasonable future and I know it. I happen to like my job regardless, but again, if it's a command you are coming here for and you are not currently a commander on the big bird. . . just be careful.

And a few points to sum up:

You may be initially offered something that will not be completely true.

You may be shown pay rates but that will be for down the road a few years, maybe.

Regardless of what I have read by another person on this site there are only a couple of companies that do not have punitive FOQA systems, expat or not.

The people are great, China is a nice place to live, the flying is fun, the maintenance is generally pretty good and they pay you the second they said they would. Shanghai is a great city to live in; if you like family stuff great, if you like night life it's tough to beat.

Just do your homework as you would anywhere else.


Typhoonpilot
08-09-2010, 01:15 AM
Great post Koru ( need a thumbs up smilie :) )



TP

KoruPilot
08-09-2010, 03:12 AM
Kudos mate.

Beers at some point, somewhere, are in order eh.


vagabond
08-09-2010, 06:23 AM
Thank you Koru for another great and timely post. I really appreciate you and TP looking out for us, and sharing your knwledge and experience.

Whenever you both find yourselves in SEA, the lattes and doppios are on the house!

Thread stickied.

cactusmike
08-09-2010, 11:09 PM
Thanks, Koru...This seemed too good to be true.

On another note, I was looking at the PPrune threaqd on the Chinese ATP written. It looks like a very interesting undertaking. My F/O was downgraded this past year and displaced from the 737 here in Cactusland. He interviewed at a Chinese airline for a 737 Captain slot and was hired after a few months of delay but was unable to take the contract because of timing and a cessation of LOAs here. He said the process was very confusing and somewhat haphazard. He did say that somewhere in China is his Chinese ATP and 1st class medical. Don't count on getting things done in a timely manner in China, I guess.

KoruPilot
08-09-2010, 11:25 PM
Yup, a quick look at the minimum requirements will tell the story. There is very little chance that they would hire a person with 2000 total and 500 command on a narrow body glass Boeing. To good to be true, as you put it, would be quite an apt way to describe it.

The process is a long one for sure. I have one mate from Delta coming to us off of the B744, straight command of course. His wife is Taiwanese, so it all makes sense for him. Plus, we do have a good operation at Great Wall and the pay is pretty well. Also our leave and home leave are much better than what Air China Cargo is offering. However, with the merger with CargoKing (MU Cargo) I don't know. Could be good, likely not better, but one never knows.

But I digress.

It normally takes at least three to four months for the process to work itself through. The medical and ATP written are not a problem, they just take time. The nice part is that along the way everybody was very helpful and friendly when I joined.

Confusing. . . most definitely. But, they are slowly working through the mountains of red tape that you find here. They may all drive Lamborghinis, but it is still a communist country and you have to deal with the beaurocracy that surounds it.

This CargoKing chap who posted on another thread is, I assume from his handle, with MU cargo; perhaps directly involved with hiring (one never knows with the anonymity of this site). It sounds like he's open to questions and I would suggest sending him a PM if one was interested in that outfit. We are rolling into their operation but we are still hiring FO's where as, from what I understand, they do not. Where that leaves me when the dust settles I do not know.

B757200ER
08-10-2010, 07:29 AM
Excellent info, thanks. I have two mates trying to get on with ACC and Jade Cargo. Koru & Typhoon have been most helpful.

worldliner777
08-10-2010, 09:49 AM
Great information! :)

I agreed, KoruPilot and Typhoonpilot always provide detail and upfront information on contract flying.

Cheers

CARGOKING
08-10-2010, 07:16 PM
TO:KoruPilot
We are merging with GreatWall and shanghai airline cargo now. However we think maybe in the long future, the 3 company will still keep their currrent ways of operation, especially in fleet operation. For Great Wall and SHANGHAI AIRLINE CARGO have a lot of foreing, but we China Carog only has few. For we just introduced brand new B777, this is first time we hiring B777 captains.
to this website, i am a green hand, i really don't know the rules and regulations here. and i find here just by google. and i even don't know how to use PM function here. But i go here just want to find qualified candidates by our company, for we don't want to hire from agent this time.
[deleted]

KoruPilot
08-11-2010, 12:52 AM
Well, not wanting to hire through an agent is a good thing. Best of luck with your search for pilots.

Ronin47
08-11-2010, 10:59 AM
TO:KoruPilot
We are merging with GreatWall and shanghai airline cargo now. However we think maybe in the long future, the 3 company will still keep their currrent ways of operation, especially in fleet operation. For Great Wall and SHANGHAI AIRLINE CARGO have a lot of foreing, but we China Carog only has few. For we just introduced brand new B777, this is first time we hiring B777 captains.
to this website, i am a green hand, i really don't know the rules and regulations here. and i find here just by google. and i even don't know how to use PM function here. But i go here just want to find qualified candidates by our company, for we don't want to hire from agent this time.
[deleted]
Hello Cargo King.
Do you work for China Eastern? If so what are your hiring minnimums?
Cheers

CARGOKING
08-11-2010, 10:52 PM
TO Ronin47
Yes, i am work for China Cargo, the branch of China Eastern.
hiring minimums? do you mean our minimum requriement?
1) 1,000 hours PIC in type (B777)
2) Current in type within 6 months
3) 6,000 hours in total
4) Valid ATPL
5) Valid First Class Medical
6) Valid passport
7) No history of incidents or accidents
8) No criminal records
9) Less than 58 years of age at the start of the assignment

Ronin47
08-12-2010, 04:19 AM
TO Ronin47
Yes, i am work for China Cargo, the branch of China Eastern.
hiring minimums? do you mean our minimum requriement?
1) 1,000 hours PIC in type (B777)
2) Current in type within 6 months
3) 6,000 hours in total
4) Valid ATPL
5) Valid First Class Medical
6) Valid passport
7) No history of incidents or accidents
8) No criminal records
9) Less than 58 years of age at the start of the assignment
Thanks Cargo King....much appreciated. Any FO hiring?

CARGOKING
08-12-2010, 10:24 PM
don't have the schedule for hiring FO these days, but i think maybe in near future will have.

KoruPilot
08-13-2010, 01:09 AM
If you're interested then try Great Wall as we do hire FO's at the moment and we are slowly being rolled into China Cargo, so the end result may be the same.

I'm not sure what Cargoking can say about the future, but we've heard that they are looking at rolling us, olus one other B744 operation into a very large all cargo outfit flying B777's and B744's. The word is 40 aircraft within a few years. There is a heck of a lot of cargo into and out of China and Chinese carriers account for a fairly small percentage. Because of that the gov't wants to create a massive (two actually, with the AC/CX cargo deal) outfit to handle a much bigger piece of the pie. The merger is coming along very slowly though, which is good as what we first heard was going to happen, a very rapid amalgamation, would have been a disaster.

Could be fun. . . we'll see.

Anyway, as far as Great Wall, I like the place and the contract is pretty good; better as far as consecutive home leave days as the others over here, and at least as good with annual leave. I'm not sure what the reality is as far as pay at some of the other operations but we do pretty well here, and the housing allowance will either give you some extra cash or a very nice apartment in Shanghai (we get 14000 per month plus 5000 RMB for travel per month and a reasonable education allowance of 10000 per month). We also happen to have a VP Ops who is very good; easily one of the best I've ever dealt with.

Ronin47
08-14-2010, 06:33 AM
If you're interested then try Great Wall as we do hire FO's at the moment and we are slowly being rolled into China Cargo, so the end result may be the same.

I'm not sure what Cargoking can say about the future, but we've heard that they are looking at rolling us, olus one other B744 operation into a very large all cargo outfit flying B777's and B744's. The word is 40 aircraft within a few years. There is a heck of a lot of cargo into and out of China and Chinese carriers account for a fairly small percentage. Because of that the gov't wants to create a massive (two actually, with the AC/CX cargo deal) outfit to handle a much bigger piece of the pie. The merger is coming along very slowly though, which is good as what we first heard was going to happen, a very rapid amalgamation, would have been a disaster.

Could be fun. . . we'll see.

Anyway, as far as Great Wall, I like the place and the contract is pretty good; better as far as consecutive home leave days as the others over here, and at least as good with annual leave. I'm not sure what the reality is as far as pay at some of the other operations but we do pretty well here, and the housing allowance will either give you some extra cash or a very nice apartment in Shanghai (we get 14000 per month plus 5000 RMB for travel per month and a reasonable education allowance of 10000 per month). We also happen to have a VP Ops who is very good; easily one of the best I've ever dealt with.

Thanks Koru...much appreciated. I saw on GWA website that there are seperate pay scales for "Typed" Captains and "Non-Typed" Captains...are you hiring "Non-Typed" Captains as Cruise Captains and if so what are the company minns? Are there any upgrades where your at? Thanks in advance.

DYNASTY HVY
08-29-2010, 05:52 AM
TO Ronin47
Yes, i am work for China Cargo, the branch of China Eastern.
hiring minimums? do you mean our minimum requriement?
1) 1,000 hours PIC in type (B777)
2) Current in type within 6 months
3) 6,000 hours in total
4) Valid ATPL
5) Valid First Class Medical
6) Valid passport
7) No history of incidents or accidents
8) No criminal records
9) Less than 58 years of age at the start of the assignment
.............................

captfurlough
09-10-2010, 11:20 AM
Very helpful posts all. Could you tell me where the candidates with 74, 777, and A330 types and PIC time are being recruited from?

KoruPilot
09-10-2010, 01:17 PM
We just had a guy from Delta come over, so that's two of them now. In th past many guys from China Airlines out of Taiwan. A couple off of recent KAL contracts who weren't picked up by them again (odd as KAL is hiring and the contracts good. The last one to come over is pretty good so not sure what the problem was with KAL). A few of us FO's from Air NZ. A couple from SQ recently.

Spoke with some UPS guy's who are interested due to the proposed lay off's there, but considering they just bought a bunch of 744F's one has to wonder if the company is just blowing smoke.

captfurlough
09-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Thank you KoruPilot...it helps to understand the situation.

alarkyokie
09-24-2010, 09:12 AM
Related (?) info..
Cathay Pacific to buy 6 Boeing planes for $1.6 bln - International Business Times (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/64303/20100921/cathay-pacific-to-buy-6-boeing-planes-for-1-6-bln.htm)

"However, Boeing specified that a disproportionate amount about 40 percent of this increased demand will come from the Asia-Pacific region. China alone will need 70,600 new pilots over the next 20 years."
Global airline industry poised to soar in coming decades - International Business Times (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/63951/20100920/airlines-recession-pilots-boeing.htm)

dualrated19
09-25-2010, 05:01 AM
A question from a corporate guy:

Not addressing the actuality of the 'boom' of pilot jobs in Asia and worldwide, however what ability does a Gulfstream guy (with solid international experience) have when applying to these jobs in the future? Is someone that doesn't have Boeing time automatically put into the round file?

I appreciate the insight from the 121 world. Thanks.

Thedude
09-25-2010, 11:56 AM
A question from a corporate guy:

Not addressing the actuality of the 'boom' of pilot jobs in Asia and worldwide, however what ability does a Gulfstream guy (with solid international experience) have when applying to these jobs in the future? Is someone that doesn't have Boeing time automatically put into the round file?

I appreciate the insight from the 121 world. Thanks.


It depends, most foreign operators want someone with significant time in type.
I did get hired at a foreign gig in an aircraft that I had zero time in but that is kinda rare.
As demand picks up, I think time in type might fall by the wayside.

KoruPilot
09-25-2010, 01:52 PM
Absolutely agree with Thedude. At the moment most jobs out there require a type rating or wide body time for non-rated. An example of that would be any of the ANA group jobs or KAL. The latter might be interesting as they are looking for B737NG skippers (don't quote me but I think non-typed is fine), and if you're been flying a large corporate jet you'd be in the money, or one would think.

Those jobs aside, as my white russian drinking friend has pointed out, 18 or so months from now I doubt many airlines will be requiring time on type.

Try the CCL contract with KAL though, and I'll check my emails (I get about ten a week for B744 jobs if you can imagine) and see what it say's about the NG.

Good luck with it.

dualrated19
09-25-2010, 03:35 PM
Koru and TheDude
Thank you for your time and local knowledge! If the market actually supports the forecasted growth this could be a great opportunity for someone in my position.
While I have you- what is the general disposition of having more western crews flying for these companies versus local pilots?
Again, your time is appreciated.

KoruPilot
09-25-2010, 04:01 PM
China is pretty good as far as attitudes towards expats; keep in mind expat's could be anything from Americans and Australians to Ecuadorians and Malaysians. I think it could be attributed to their initial training which for a very large part put's them in Australia for a fair bit of time, so they get very used to flying with us right off the bat as their instructors.

I have heard that the attitude in Korea is not so great towards the expats, but I have also had ex-KAL guy's tell me they loved it there. Depends on your ability to bend towards their way of doing thing's, which includes certain attitude changes on the flight deck, in particular cockpit gradient. My personal opinion is that all of the Asian operations need to work on their human factors as far as that (CRM) is concerned. As a pretty experienced expat FO I do, at times, 'get into it' with the odd skipper, but it's very rare and my skin doesn't generally have to be too thick. When I think about it it's really not too different from my time at Air NZ; like anywhere it depends on who your flying with and most of our guy's are good.

You'll find that at places like KAL they are reasonably carefull during the selection process, and that will extend all the way through your training into yourline check. They really need you to get into their mentality. So, it's up to you as much as them really. If you like it great, if not no worries, try somewhere else.

dualrated19
09-26-2010, 06:24 AM
Korupilot,


Thank you for the insight; this is great information for someone interested in making the switch. I'd have to agree with the CRM portion of your reply, and that is just my experience from being on the frequency here in the states.

If you ever have any questions about being on call 27 days a month flying on this side of the world let me know!

The Dominican
09-26-2010, 07:32 AM
and if you're been flying a large corporate jet you'd be in the money, or one would think.


Not sure about KAL but on the ANA group you won't be considered unless you have time on a transport category A/C and airline experience. I personally don't agree with this since on my 30 years on the business almost half of it was flying corporate and some of the finest pilots and individuals that I have flown with I met during those years, I tried to get a good friend of mine that is a GV captain an interview here with no luck.

727574drvr
03-09-2011, 10:05 PM
TO:KoruPilot
We are merging with GreatWall and shanghai airline cargo now. However we think maybe in the long future, the 3 company will still keep their currrent ways of operation, especially in fleet operation. For Great Wall and SHANGHAI AIRLINE CARGO have a lot of foreing, but we China Carog only has few. For we just introduced brand new B777, this is first time we hiring B777 captains.
to this website, i am a green hand, i really don't know the rules and regulations here. and i find here just by google. and i even don't know how to use PM function here. But i go here just want to find qualified candidates by our company, for we don't want to hire from agent this time.
[deleted]
Anyone know about Hong Kong Airlines? Put in a resume today. I used the Cargo King call sign with a US carrier on contract. I think we may have help speed up the English endorsement. Some stupid bastard answered our call sign "Cargo King 520 Heavy" and accepted and performed with precision our clearance. He was "Cargo King 521 Heavy" heading SE and we were heading NW. He missed us by about 400 feet with a closure rate of over 1000 mph. Nice huh???? He spoke English worse than my Chinese, and my Chinese sucks!!! I can order a beer and get laid in Shanghai and thats about it!!!