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RPC Unity
10-30-2011, 11:12 AM
FAPA approached the IBT over a year ago regarding the construction of a Joint Council. Gate Gourmet (an IBT-UNITE joint council) and US Airways (an IBT-CWA) joint council were used as just some of the many examples that have worked before.

The IBT wasn't interested.

"We have been told that situation has been a complete failure", a Local 357 Exco members said when we discussed Gate Gourmet.

The Local 357 then sent out a letter to its membership claiming that a Joint Council will not work at RAH.

Why would they want to cooperate with the Frontier Pilots. The IBT outnumbered them nearly 3 to 1.

Alas, now a joint council is a great idea at RAH. The Frontier Flight Attendants are AFA members, and the RAH Flight Attendants are IBT members. Unfortunately for the IBT, they do not outnumber the AFA flight attendant in this election. The IBT is worried about losing. Rather than risk another loss for the IBT Airline Division, they are building a Joint Council. What a great idea! Why didn't we think of that? Oh, we did, and they told us to go f ourselves.

The AFA will remain as the bargaining agent for the Frontier Flight Attendants, and administrate their CBA.

The IBT will remain as the bargaining agent for the RAH Flight Attendants, and administrate their CBA.

This sounds very familiar. I wonder what changed the IBT's mind.

One day, a Joint Council is a horrible idea and we were told it couldn't possibly work. The next day a Joint Council is the only way to go.

The same exact IBT lawyers that told the FAPA reps that a Council won't work at RAH are the ones building a council for the Flight Attendants. Its amazing how their perspective changes when the don't have a guaranteed win during the representation election.

There is only one word that can even begin to describe the IBT.

Hypocritical.


F9 A319
10-30-2011, 05:08 PM
There is only one word that can even begin to describe the IBT.

Hypocritical.

Respectfully, I must disagree.

I can think of hundreds of words to describe the IBT. And "Hypocritical" is much more pleasant than where I would begin. It would at least be down in the mid 50's or so.

Not to be overly cynical, but the Frontier F/A's wouldn't bring in anything like the Frontier pilots in dues AND don't have a large savings account for the IBT to rape and pillage and raid as FAPA does.

How many positions has Wilder taken on IBT issues? McBond does apply to MEA F/A's as they weren't an "Air Carrier", but a "Holding Company." McBond does apply to the pilot SLI, now a "Shell Organization" is a good idea for the F/A's but wasn't for the pilots.

That's without even getting into his representation of the Frontier Mechanic's for IBT. I WANTED Bill to kick butt with the Frontier Mechanics, because he was going against that miserable example of humanity, Brian Mumaugh at Holland and Hart and RAH totally hosed our Mechanics.

As much as it pains me to do so, I have to give Wilder props, his representation abilities seem to blow but he seems like God's chosen Attorney and prevails without a case or the ability to present a case. It is one of the great mysteries in life from my perspective.

MrBrosef
10-30-2011, 05:41 PM
RAH pilots---single carrier

RAH F/A----not single carrier

That simple

Thread closed


F9 A319
10-30-2011, 05:59 PM
RAH pilots---single carrier

RAH F/A----not single carrier

That simple

Thread closed

Keep up Dude. The NMB ruled the F/A's are now a single carrier.

It's a matter of words but it means a lot (like core belief) that the NMB ruled that RAH and Frontier pilots constituted a single carrier.

The NMB ruled, initially, that the RAH and Frontier F/A's were not a single carrier and has now ruled that the RAH and Frontier F/A's are a single carrier.

No matter how long this lasts, there will ALWAYS be RAH employees and Frontier employees.

Just so you're up to date, the IBT is agreeing to form a "Shell Organization" (like a "Joint Council") that will allow the Frontier F/A's to remain being represented by AFA and RAH F/A's to continue to be represented by the IBT.

Do the first two posts make a bit more sense now?

MrBrosef
10-30-2011, 07:14 PM
Well looks like I am a few weeks behind the times.

cencal83406
10-30-2011, 07:16 PM
RAH pilots---single carrier

RAH F/A----not single carrier

That simple

Thread closed

How does that even make any sense?

What's good for the goose....

Outsider wondering, as we're having our F/As give the royal screw job to our brother airline's FAs....

F9 A319
10-30-2011, 07:38 PM
Well looks like I am a few weeks behind the times.

Just a day or two actually. It happens to me too.

slumav505
11-01-2011, 07:07 AM
still not educated on the IBT CBA. Our scope does not allow for two councils. It's over and done with now. pay your damn dues, nominate some folks in the next election and move on. The pitty party thrown on here is appalling. for grown men and women who are supposed to be more seasoned and experienced then us young regional pukes. FAPA probably wants a participation trophy for their RPC idea. Well why don't you two go have some orange slices at half time well IBT keeps fighting towards the goal of a much better contract for all pilots.

F9 A319
11-01-2011, 01:13 PM
Well why don't you two go have some orange slices at half time well IBT keeps fighting towards the goal of a much better contract for all pilots.

Orange slices at half time? What's that mean?

Whenever you get a new contract, I seriously doubt that it will be a contract that is "a much better contract for all pilots."

I don't see it as the basis of setting a new bar for pattern bargaining in the industry. It is a good "goal" and I guess that's all you committed to....

RPC Unity
11-02-2011, 02:56 PM
still not educated on the IBT CBA. Our scope does not allow for two councils. It's over and done with now. pay your damn dues, nominate some folks in the next election and move on. The pitty party thrown on here is appalling. for grown men and women who are supposed to be more seasoned and experienced then us young regional pukes. FAPA probably wants a participation trophy for their RPC idea. Well why don't you two go have some orange slices at half time well IBT keeps fighting towards the goal of a much better contract for all pilots.

There is absolutely nothing in your scope language that prevents a Joint Council. Nothing.

At the beginning, it was going to be an all IBT umbrella anyway, but even THAT wasn't good enough for the IBT.

Be honest, it would have worked better than the fiasco we have today, but you guys knew you had the numbers in the election so you blew us off.

Now the shoe is on the other foot and the IBT is doing exactly what they told FAPA could never be done.

It's a joke, really it is.

Chuck D
11-02-2011, 04:46 PM
No personal offense RPC, but I don't see this as a "joke" any more than the way the RPC was presented as a voting option way back.

As a rank and file RAH pilot willing to listen with open ears to any unifying group, seeing the way the RPC option was floated, at the very last minute, and with zero visible support from the RAH side, it shouldn't be a surprise that many of us were at least a little suspect of the whole venture. Had you found even one or two of our pilots to support the idea vocally prior to the vote, and alongside you, perhaps what you offered wouldn't seem like a veiled attempt to forestall any sort of integration process. But you had to know that, as you seem reasonably intelligent.

So, that being said, the RPC in its offered form was simply a non-starter, as evidenced by the vote. No point in revisiting it ad nauseum.

Given the strides we all have to make to improve contracts (yes, yours also) it would seem like a heck of a waste of time to keep digging this up. Let's move on to more important things.

BusSkyflyer
11-02-2011, 05:10 PM
So what needs to be improved in our contract?

Chuck D
11-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Nothing. Disregard. It's perfect.

G-Dog
11-03-2011, 05:24 AM
So what needs to be improved in our contract?

Better yet, what do think needs improving to the Frontier contract? Or are you willing to give up all bargaining rights because your contract is good? I would never compare a RAH contact(sucky) to a F9 contract(less sucky), but there is always room for improvement, right?

ATCsaidDoWhat
11-03-2011, 05:43 AM
There is absolutely nothing in your scope language that prevents a Joint Council. Nothing.

At the beginning, it was going to be an all IBT umbrella anyway, but even THAT wasn't good enough for the IBT.

Be honest, it would have worked better than the fiasco we have today, but you guys knew you had the numbers in the election so you blew us off.

Now the shoe is on the other foot and the IBT is doing exactly what they told FAPA could never be done.

It's a joke, really it is.

Yeah, it IS a joke. AFA went to the IBT, sat down and ACTED LIKE ADULTS and said, "Let's work together and make this work for everyone." FAPA went in and said, "here's our list of DEMANDS."

You know...FAPA...Failed Airline Pilots Association...representing a group of pilots at a bankrupt airline that was headed down the Chapter 7 chute...who made the same DEMANDS with Southwest. We saw how good you did there too.

You whined about the election, yet could have joined the IBT and put your own slate together. But you didn't because you, "wouldn't have a chance of getting one of your own elected." Yet a Midwest guy won.

To keep hearing your sad sob story reminds me of the preacher who was made at the Lord. Seems a flood was coming. When the water was rising, a sherriff came and the preacher said "nope, the Lord will save me." When the water was at the church steps, a boat and a boat came, he said "nope, the Lord will save me." When the preacher was on the roof with the water still rising, a helicopter came and he said, "no, the Lord will save me."

When he was swept away and died, he got to the Pearly Gates and was PO'd. Blew past St. Peter and demanded the Lord explain why he didn't save him; a man of the cloth.

The Lord looked down and said, "damn brother...I sent you a sherriff, a boat and a helicopter...what more did you want?"

You guys are like the preacher. Every time a hand of friendship has been offered to you, it gets slapped back and then you complain it wasn't good enough. Then you sold out every pilot in this industry by giving away the store with concessions and you still want to cry "victim."

slumav505
11-03-2011, 06:23 AM
Orange slices at half time? What's that mean?

Whenever you get a new contract, I seriously doubt that it will be a contract that is "a much better contract for all pilots."

I don't see it as the basis of setting a new bar for pattern bargaining in the industry. It is a good "goal" and I guess that's all you committed to....


generally orange slices are given away at halftime of kids soccer games. Since you guys act like children more often than not figured it might be a good break.

And yes, the RAH CBA does require one list, which also requires one contract and one bargaining agent. You lost, IBT won. Pay your dues, vote on the issues and get involved. The FAPA lanyards are cute and all but it's time to face the facts. Something you seem willing to do on your terms when it benefits you.

sizzlechest
11-03-2011, 07:56 AM
Keep in mind that IBT and AFA was only looking to add lynx F/As to the single carrier. NMB came back and added F9 to the single carrier. They pretty much got the same status that the pilots did. Now AFA and IBT were surprised at that result and they decided to try and figure out what it all meant. they didn't want to do too much while the threat of a pilot strike looms. i would say that the co-effort is more a response to an event as opposed to a planned event. Reactive rather than pro-active.

Off topic: take a minute and look at that abortion of an AFA contract.... they got jacked by BB for sure...he|| they only got 50% DH when IBT7357 has 75% DH!!!

FAULTPUSH
11-03-2011, 08:34 AM
I would never compare a RAH contact(sucky) to a F9 contract(less sucky), but there is always room for improvement, right?

That's funny. You're implying that our contract is sucky? Based on IBT's record at other airlines, I don't see them improving ours.

...he|| they only got 50% DH when IBT7357 has 75% DH!!!

Let me try the same thing:
Frontier flight attendants make more per hour than yours. Therefore AFA is better than IBT.

And yes, the RAH CBA does require one list, which also requires one contract and one bargaining agent. .

Can you quote the contract language that says that? I'm thinking that you're misinformed, but please correct me if you're not.

Then you sold out every pilot in this industry by giving away the store with concessions and you still want to cry "victim."

That's the pot calling the kettle black, given the $37 limit on your FO pay, and that (to the best of my knowledge) our pilots currently make more than EVERY IBT represented airline flying similar equipment, and more than some ALPA-represented legacy carriers.

Once again, you arrogance is nauseating. First, you (or one of you RAH cohorts) implied that airplane size is somehow correlated to a pilot's worth, and now you're saying that all pilots of bankrupt airlines are morally reprehensible, as if you are somehow superior to them because you've had the luck (and lack of time in the industry?) to not have experienced that. I've seen Ch 7 and 11 in my time.

F9 Driver
11-03-2011, 08:34 AM
Yeah, it IS a joke... Every time a hand of friendship has been offered to you, it gets slapped back and then you complain it wasn't good enough. Then you sold out every pilot in this industry by giving away the store with concessions and you still want to cry "victim."With friends like you who needs enemies?

"Luke, The revisionist history is strong in this one!"

ridered
11-04-2011, 05:21 AM
Pretty simple $$$$$$$$$$$$ IBT will lose this election and national will lose it's funding so a joint council suddenly makes sense.........

F9 A319
11-05-2011, 02:18 PM
From IBT Washington DC

Message to Republic Airlines (isn’t it “Airways?”) Flight Attendants

Urgent


Single Carrier Ruling: On October 12, 2011, the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) issued a decision finding that Frontier and Lynx are now part of a single transportation system with Chautauqua, Shuttle America, Republic Airlines and Midwest for the Flight Attendant craft or class. Neither the IBT nor the AFA Teamsters (?) agrees with this decision. However, in order to preserve the existing representation rights of the Frontier, Republic, Midwest and Lynx Flight Attendants without a difficult and divisive election, the AFA and the Teamsters are discussing the formation of a joint organization that would be certified by the NMB and would allow each organization to continue to represent the members it presently represents for grievance and contract bargaining purposes. The IBT and AFA are in the preliminary stages of negotiating the creation of such an organization, and plan to ask the NMB to postpone any further action on a runoff election until late November 2011, by which time we hope to have an agreement creating such an entity. We will continue to keep you posted.

Captain David Bourne ♦ Director Airline Division

ATCsaidDoWhat
11-05-2011, 06:08 PM
That's funny. You're implying that our contract is sucky? Based on IBT's record at other airlines, I don't see them improving ours.

Apparently you haven't looked at the Atlas contract. Before rigs, a 12 year 767 Captain (of which I know a few...) is on par with a DAL 20 year 767 Captain. Yeah, bad news. Just like their rigs and profit sharing. And they didn't sell the farm in bankruptcy either...like you did.


That's the pot calling the kettle black, given the $37 limit on your FO pay, and that (to the best of my knowledge) our pilots currently make more than EVERY IBT represented airline flying similar equipment, and more than some ALPA-represented legacy carriers.

Once again, you arrogance is nauseating. First, you (or one of you RAH cohorts) implied that airplane size is somehow correlated to a pilot's worth, and now you're saying that all pilots of bankrupt airlines are morally reprehensible, as if you are somehow superior to them because you've had the luck (and lack of time in the industry?) to not have experienced that. I've seen Ch 7 and 11 in my time.

There is a monumental difference between the Republic pilots who got a substandard FIRST contract foisted on them by LU747 leadership that was sacked by the International and the Airline Division...and FAPA, who voluntarily SOLD OUT to BB while trying to cut a side deal.

Face it...you are no different than the first group of pilots at American who sold out the future AA pilots by agreeing to the first "B" scale.

Republic pilots got a lousy contract that can and will be improved.

YOU sold out the profession and those who will come after us.

ATCsaidDoWhat
11-05-2011, 06:11 PM
From IBT Washington DC


Message to Republic Airlines (isn’t it “Airways?”) Flight Attendants

Urgent


Single Carrier Ruling: On October 12, 2011, the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) issued a decision finding that Frontier and Lynx are now part of a single transportation system with Chautauqua, Shuttle America, Republic Airlines and Midwest for the Flight Attendant craft or class. Neither the IBT nor the AFA Teamsters (?) agrees with this decision. However, in order to preserve the existing representation rights of the Frontier, Republic, Midwest and Lynx Flight Attendants without a difficult and divisive election, the AFA and the Teamsters are discussing the formation of a joint organization that would be certified by the NMB and would allow each organization to continue to represent the members it presently represents for grievance and contract bargaining purposes. The IBT and AFA are in the preliminary stages of negotiating the creation of such an organization, and plan to ask the NMB to postpone any further action on a runoff election until late November 2011, by which time we hope to have an agreement creating such an entity. We will continue to keep you posted.


Captain David Bourne ♦ Director Airline Division


Huge difference between two groups working together and FAPA coming in with a list of DEMANDS...by the way...you STILL lost the election.

FAULTPUSH
11-05-2011, 09:38 PM
Republic pilots got a lousy contract that can and will be improved.

That's not likely, based on every other IBT contract. Except Atlas. Which is halfway between Delta's scale and United's bankruptcy scale. Kudos to them for being a bright spot in a sea of mediocrity.

F9 A319
11-05-2011, 10:11 PM
There is a monumental difference between the Republic pilots who got a substandard FIRST contract foisted on them by LU747 leadership that was sacked by the International and the Airline Division...and FAPA, who voluntarily SOLD OUT to BB while trying to cut a side deal.

Face it...you are no different than the first group of pilots at American who sold out the future AA pilots by agreeing to the first "B" scale.


You seem to struggle with quoting and bolding.....


There is no "B" scale, have you read LOA 67? The LOA affected ALL pilots, not just New Hires or FO's. Do you know what the "B" scale was at AA, how it came about and how it was finally abolished? Do you know what we "gave up?" Do you know what we gained? I'll help you out here - you don't know what we gained.

I doubt that you know what we gave either, read the LOA.

WE have work rules, benefits and payrates that are just fine for now, thank you.

Huge difference between two groups working together and FAPA coming in with a list of DEMANDS...by the way...you STILL lost the election.

List of Demands:

Allow Frontier pilots a voice in our own future.

Don't behave in a way that harms our jobs.

We prefer to work with Management rather than wake up every single day and think of ways to fight with them.

Don't steal our money.

Engage as opposed to demanding our participation.

Communicate with the Frontier pilot group.

Pretty unreasonable list, I guess. And the IBT and 357 has yet to meet a single "demand."

Republic pilots got a lousy contract that can and will be improved.

They certainly NEED a new contract. Unfortunately, that does not equate to "can" or "will" be improved.

and FAPA, who voluntarily SOLD OUT to BB while trying to cut a side deal.

That statement demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the situation.

YOU sold out the profession and those who will come after us.

And YOU have got to be *^%*&#^ joking!

"We sold out the profession" from an RAH pilot?!? You voted in your contract, which is the worst I've ever seen. You have the same guy negotiating for changes to 4 sections of your CBA.

How's that going? Strike by Christmas? Trying to sell a "lack of safety" campaign? You guys remember Colgan 3407 in BUF and the subsequent safety concerns about "Commuters", right? Having a 23 year old tell the traveling public on TV that he's going to take lunch breaks, not because it's a safety issue, but that he just doesn't care and wants a raise? Brilliant!


From IBT Washington DC

Message to Republic Airlines (isn’t it “Airways?”) Flight Attendants


Urgent



Single Carrier Ruling: On October 12, 2011, the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) issued a decision finding that Frontier and Lynx are now part of a single transportation system with Chautauqua, Shuttle America, Republic Airlines and Midwest for the Flight Attendant craft or class. Neither the IBT nor the AFA Teamsters (?) agrees with this decision. However, in order to preserve the existing representation rights of the Frontier, Republic, Midwest and Lynx Flight Attendants without a difficult and divisive election, the AFA and the Teamsters are discussing the formation of a joint organization that would be certified by the NMB and would allow each organization to continue to represent the members it presently represents for grievance and contract bargaining purposes. The IBT and AFA are in the preliminary stages of negotiating the creation of such an organization, and plan to ask the NMB to postpone any further action on a runoff election until late November 2011, by which time we hope to have an agreement creating such an entity. We will continue to keep you posted.

Captain David Bourne ♦ Director Airline Division


The fact that you can not or will not recognize the hypocrisy in David Bourne and IBT National coming down on one side of the representation issues in one case and 180 degrees different in our case renders your opinions moot.

EvilMonkey
11-06-2011, 05:38 AM
How's that going? Strike by Christmas? Trying to sell a "lack of safety" campaign? You guys remember Colgan 3407 in BUF and the subsequent safety concerns about "Commuters", right? Having a 23 year old tell the traveling public on TV that he's going to take lunch breaks, not because it's a safety issue, but that he just doesn't care and wants a raise?

You don't know what kind of lead in question that was in response to (unless you were there, which I doubt.). The media take a statement out of context? A big stretch, I know...:rolleyes:

ATCsaidDoWhat
11-06-2011, 05:51 AM
No troubles at all F9...you sold out the profession when you went begging to give concessions to a modern day Frank Lorenzo. Your airline was in the can and you were headed for the unemployment line when BB bought you for pennies on the dollar. Everyone saw your idea of how the SLI should occur; you wanted to shaft everyone else. You lost on that one. Then, facing the representation election, you created the farce called RPC Unity, that failed too.

And as your final act of desperation, you went to BB and sold your soul and the profession out by giving away concessions that others in this industry will use at the bargaining table to demand concessions or threaten bankruptcy.

Those of us who have been here much longer than you have seen it before. You can put all the lipstick on the pig you want; it doesn't change the fact that you did it.

Did the Republic pilots get a lousy first contract? Yep. Your assumptions and pronouncements on what they will achieve in the days ahead are baseless because you have no clue what will happen. Just as you have no clue about the background of who will be doing the negotiating. Just assumptions.

Nor do you likely understand that many carriers out there; meaning the legacies and long established regionals who have been around 30 years or more, didn't start out with stellar first contracts.

There is a word for what you continue to espouse as an excuse for your sellout.

Quisling.

FAULTPUSH
11-06-2011, 06:54 AM
Everyone saw your idea of how the SLI should occur; you wanted to shaft everyone else.
....
Did the Republic pilots get a lousy first contract? Yep.


Lynx, MEA, and Frontier had similar ideas on the SLI. IBT was the one that was waaaaaay out there. What was your proposal for the Midwest pilots? You wanted to shaft everyone else, so we'll call it even.

What's IBT's excuse for the crappy contracts everywhere else but Atlas? Are they all first contracts? It seems like your argument is "our contracts suck compared to yours, but at least we haven't given concessions".

F9 A319
11-06-2011, 10:15 AM
No troubles at all F9...you sold out the profession when you went begging to give concessions to a modern day Frank Lorenzo.

And as your final act of desperation, you went to BB and sold your soul and the profession out by giving away concessions that others in this industry will use at the bargaining table to demand concessions or threaten bankruptcy.

We didn't go "begging" to give concessions, we met with the Company, listened to their proposal, reviewed the financials and agreed to concessions. The concessions we agreed to won't affect anyone else's ability to negotiate a contract in the future.

At this time, we have to worry about our future, not the industry's. If you're a student of the industry, you'll remember all the promises UAL ALPA made to the old Frontier pilots, only to betray them in the end. There are tons of examples of every size of pilot group looking out for their best interests as opposed to trading their jobs for the faceless "industry pilots."

Again, have you read LOA 67? There's nothing in there even remotely close to "selling our soul."

Those of us who have been here much longer than you have seen it before.

Been where longer than I have? At RAH?

The IBT created such an adversarial, confrontational relationship with RAH management that they have been essentially useless in dealing with RAH Management on any issue that could benefit their membership and/or the Company. Line hour reduction LOA excluded, but then that didn't go exactly as planned, did it?

Or are you talking about the industry? I have been flying professionally for 31 years and have studied the industry as much as anyone I know. I have held every position a pilot can hold. Management, Line pilot, Sim and Line CAM and 5 different union positions over 11 years.

Just as you have no clue about the background of who will be doing the negotiating. Just assumptions.

Would you like the Bio on Sneddon, Eve, Craig or Wilder?

There is a word for what you continue to espouse as an excuse for your sellout.

Quisling.

Excellent word dude! I had to look it up. I think you might be putting more emotion, more emphasis and far too much hyperbole into this entire situation.....

skygrl67
11-06-2011, 12:31 PM
Us RAH FAs are calling the attorney representing IBT as we are opposing two councils. It is ridiculous. We have more FAs than F9 and we aren't worried about losing IBT. We need one union representing us all. I could care less which one. I have had both in the past. As for this non sense, looking back, I wish Southwest would have won. Listening to a bunch of crews whine about how Republic ruined their airline gets really old. Remember where you could of been. Get happy, be productive and make it work or get out! Life is way too short.

FAULTPUSH
11-06-2011, 02:27 PM
We We need one union representing us all. I could care less which one.

The catch is that IBT could care (couldn't care?) They don't want to lose what they have, so they don't want to risk an election.

skygrl67
11-06-2011, 03:25 PM
See, I heard AFA knows they would be outnumbered and couldn't afford to have another vote especially to lose. Like I said, Rah Fas aren't going to stand for 2 unions and are asking for a vote. We shall see what happens soon hopefully!

ATCsaidDoWhat
11-06-2011, 04:51 PM
We didn't go "begging" to give concessions, we met with the Company, listened to their proposal, reviewed the financials and agreed to concessions. The concessions we agreed to won't affect anyone else's ability to negotiate a contract in the future.

At this time, we have to worry about our future, not the industry's. If you're a student of the industry, you'll remember all the promises UAL ALPA made to the old Frontier pilots, only to betray them in the end. There are tons of examples of every size of pilot group looking out for their best interests as opposed to trading their jobs for the faceless "industry pilots."

Again, have you read LOA 67? There's nothing in there even remotely close to "selling our soul."



Been where longer than I have? At RAH?

The IBT created such an adversarial, confrontational with RAH management that they have been essentially useless in dealing with RAH Management on any issue that could benefit their membership and/or the Company. Line hour reduction LOA excluded, but then that didn't go exactly as planned, did it?

Or are you talking about the industry? I have been flying professionally for 31 years and have studied the industry as much as anyone I know. I have held every position a pilot can hold. Management, Line pilot, Sim and Line CAM and 5 different union positions over 11 years.



Would you like the Bio on Sneddon, Eve, Craig or Wilder?



Excellent word dude! I had to look it up. I think you might be putting more emotion, more emphasis and far too much hyperbole into this entire situation.....

Would those be the financials that the IBT's Economic folks looked at and said that there was no need for the concessions as BB already had what he needed? And I believe the company agreed with also?

Those of us who do have 30 plus years of industry experience remember too well how our pilot groups were hit with the concessions of others that were used as a basis for management to demand even more out of us. We also remember well the groups who voluntarily started the race to the bottom. You speak of IBT contracts as bad news; yet you stonewall and refuse to admit that contracts negotiated since 2009 are radically different than the past...which is what you hold on to in desperation to make your feeble case.

Skygrl is right. You COULD have gone to SWA, but you blew that too. BB bought you from the bankruptcy heap and IBT won the election. You had opportunities to join and run candidates; you chose to sit, cry and blame everyone else.

The F/A's will work it out. You guys will still be standing there and threatening to hold your breath until everyone else turns blue...help yourself.

F9 A319
11-06-2011, 07:44 PM
Would those be the financials that the IBT's Economic folks looked at and said that there was no need for the concessions as BB already had what he needed?

No, we saw the real financials, not the ones cooked up for the IBT. I kid, I kid....


Those of us who do have 30 plus years of industry experience remember too well how our pilot groups were hit with the concessions of others that were used as a basis for management to demand even more out of us. We also remember well the groups who voluntarily started the race to the bottom. You speak of IBT contracts as bad news; yet you stonewall and refuse to admit that contracts negotiated since 2009 are radically different than the past...which is what you hold on to in desperation to make your feeble case.

You're confusing me and my posts with someone else. Try to keep up.


Skygrl is right. You COULD have gone to SWA, but you blew that too.

This is the singular most uneducated, uninformed and just downright stupid reoccurring statement on F9's options on message boards and among pilots at F9, SWA, RAH or any other airline there is. SWA was NEVER an option. It's an ignorant statement in the truest sense of the word.


BB bought you from the bankruptcy heap and IBT won the election. You had opportunities to join and run candidates; you chose to sit, cry and blame everyone else.

What part of this is so difficult to understand? We don't want anything that the IBT, Local 357 or native RAH has to offer. There are also some mitigating factors that have been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere. You guys simply aren't listening or are unable to grasp the concept.

I hate to be repetitive, but have you read LOA 67? I wouldn't keep asking if you would simply answer.


Keep working on the quoting thingy, it would make your posts much more understandable and perhaps even allow you to make a point, ask a specific question or answer a specific question. You can do it!

FAULTPUSH
11-06-2011, 09:10 PM
Would those be the financials that the IBT's Economic folks looked at and said that there was no need for the concessions as BB already had what he needed?

Yeah...that's an unbiased source of information.

RPC Unity
11-07-2011, 06:34 PM
I have no idea who this ATC guy is, but I know the RAH IBT folks and they know me.

ATC has gone off the deep end because he knows his beloved Union is a bunch of hypocrites.

ATC, I realize that LOA 67 was two pages long so I will provide a Cliffs Notes version.

No hourly pay rates were changed.
No work rules were changed (our work rules and 6.2% DC contribution have not been touched, even during BK)

Frontier pilots gave up a percentage of sick accrual, vacation accrual, 401k match and some pilots gave up one year of longevity. Some of our pilots did not participate in the longevity freeze, while other previously furloughed pilots had their original longevity reestablished. We represented our entire seniority list, furloughed thru number one, and agreed upon an LOA that works.

So, we "sold out the profession" by giving up a fraction of sick accrual?

ATC, you should probably check your narrow body rates, and your DC/DB accruals, and your work rules, before claiming that anyone has sold out.

On a related topic, I had the benefit of sharing a jumpseat with one of your Omni crew members. (UAL 75 with two JS)

Keep in mind, I am a nobody and this gent had no clue about my personal feelings about the ibt. Guess what....

The Omni TA that you (as a non-Omni pilot) claim is great, is actually a gigantic POS.

ATC, you are not Frontier, or Republic, or Omni, but you claim that the IBt is great and all other alternatives are failures.....

"How easy it is to judge rightly after one sees what evil comes from judging wrongly!"

FAULTPUSH
11-07-2011, 08:17 PM
Regarding LOA 67, the vacation accrual reduction seems close to meaningless to me because 5 days of vacation covers a 4 day trip or a 5 day reserve block just as well as 7 days of vacation.

F9 A319
11-08-2011, 03:19 PM
Regarding LOA 67, the vacation accrual reduction seems close to meaningless to me because 5 days of vacation covers a 4 day trip or a 5 day reserve block just as well as 7 days of vacation.

6 days.

I can't believe you guys told him all the secrets about LOA 67. I so wanted him to have to go to IBT Nation's archive and read it for himself.

And RPC, you're right, ATC doesn't work for F9, RAH, Omni or any other airline. So, where do you suppose he gets all his IBT info, my guess is from his employer.

TillerEnvy
12-15-2011, 04:50 PM
F9 pilots...quickly becoming to be known as a bunch of "whiners and spoiled brats" when they don't get their way.....as told to me by a UAL crew while deadheading home. They laughed out loud when I told them F9 has CA's (seat only, not stature) that are also into denying jumpseats due to lanyard wearing. Keep up the good work kids. PLEASE SEPARATE US SOON BEDFORD!!! Let these kids fail on their own!

FAULTPUSH
12-15-2011, 05:34 PM
F9 pilots...quickly becoming to be known as a bunch of "whiners and spoiled brats" when they don't get their way

It makes you wonder what they really think.

T Dawg
12-16-2011, 08:47 AM
As a UAL pilot flying out of Denver, this has been nothing short of ridiculous. Myself, along with most UAL guys I know view the Frontier guys as Anti-Union Slime. I understand that ISL’s don’t make anyone happy. Our guys and the CAL guys are scared $#!tless about what those results might be for us. That being said….Frontier Pilots……you had your shot with an Arbitrator and now it’s OVER!

Now you guys accepted concessions. Any level of concessions…..Really?!! All of us in the industry are trying to regain some ground here in our CBA’s and you guys get into bed with Bedford, in hopes of overturning a battle you lost in your arbitration?!!

And on top of that, you’re now making a concerted effort to be Non-Members in the Union and you’re messing with the Union Members for wearing their Union Lanyards?!!!

Remember Frontier pilots, YOU are writing your own chapter in history right now. You’re not fooling any of us. We will always know who you are.

FAULTPUSH
12-16-2011, 12:14 PM
As a UAL pilot flying out of Denver, this has been nothing short of ridiculous. Myself, along with most UAL guys I know view the Frontier guys as Anti-Union Slime. I understand that ISL’s don’t make anyone happy. Our guys and the CAL guys are scared $#!tless about what those results might be for us. That being said….Frontier Pilots……you had your shot with an Arbitrator and now it’s OVER!

Imagine that in your situation, the arbitrator ratioed your wide body captains with the narrow body captains at Continental, and the narrow body captains at UA with the wide body FOs at CO. As a result, when when the fence came down, the next decade would consist of nothing but Continental FO's upgrading ahead of United FOs, and Continental narrow body captains coming over ahead of your wide body captains (who would just move backwards in seniority). For 10-15 years. Would you take an offer to go back to being on your own?

I don't know why you'd be scared $#!tless - the most you'll lose in your situation is a few percentage points. My retirement position lost 1500%, and my bidding seniority position will decline for a decade or two after the fence comes down. Admittedly, there's a lot leaving on the RAH side, so perhaps it will only be a 500-1000% loss when all is said and done. Thank God for the fence and no bump / no flush, or I'd be 15 years just to get back to the seat I'm in now, with a 45% pay cut in the meantime. What kind of integration with Continental would it take for you to have that scenario?


Now you guys accepted concessions. Any level of concessions…..Really?!! All of us in the industry are trying to regain some ground here in our CBA’s and you guys get into bed with Bedford, in hopes of overturning a battle you lost in your arbitration?!!

That's the pot calling the kettle black. If I could hold captain at United with my longevity (NOT!), I'd be making $5 an hour less than what I'm making now at the concessionary rates. How long since YOU have been in bankruptcy? Why the heck didn't your union negotiate snap-backs like ours did? You also have to fight to get back your work rules too, which we don't.

And on top of that, you’re now making a concerted effort to be Non-Members in the Union and you’re messing with the Union Members for wearing their Union Lanyards?!!!

The majority of pilots here ARE union members, just not the union that you want us to join. The IBT made a concerted effort to make sure that we couldn't be fairly represented, in spite of our efforts to avoid that. I know you guys at UAL are very pro-union, but would you feel the same if your pilots' interests were outvoted by the Continental guys by 3 to 1, and you had everything they wanted, and they had NOTHING that you wanted? Luckily for you, your management furloughed and right-sized to make it a marriage of equals, which avoided that whole scenario. Count yourselves lucky for that.

Regarding the lanyards, there are very few pilots doing that. I'm not sure if you understand the full reasons behind the few that do that, with regards to the IBT stripping us of any chance at fair representation. I'm trying to think of an equivalent in your integration, but I can't come up with one.

ATCsaidDoWhat
12-16-2011, 02:01 PM
TDawg, as you can no doubt read for yourself, FP can't seem to figure out that you are not IBT. He also conveniently forgets how they proosed to hose the other pilots in THEIR proposed integration.

He also forgets that the arbitrators ruling clearly stated that IBT is the representative for all RAH Holdings pilots. Including F9.

He closes with the assertion that IBT "stripped" them of any chance of fair representation. While conveniently not mentioning that they refused to join the IBT, ergo as non members they could not run for office. Had they put up candidates; who knows? It's just easier to do nothing, sit back and blame someone else for one's own actions. Or lack thereof.

Did he mention that they (the RAH pilots) elected a Midwest Express guy?

Thought not.

You seem to have hit him where it hurts. With the truth.

FAULTPUSH
12-16-2011, 02:17 PM
TDawg, as you can no doubt read for yourself, FP can't seem to figure out that you are not IBT. .

I fully believe he's with UA. What makes you think otherwise?

He also conveniently forgets how they proosed to hose the other pilots in THEIR proposed integration. .

As did RAH pilots to everyone else.


He closes with the assertion that IBT "stripped" them of any chance of fair representation. While conveniently not mentioning that they refused to join the IBT, ergo as non members they could not run for office. Had they put up candidates; who knows? It's just easier to do nothing, sit back and blame someone else for one's own actions. Or lack thereof..

It was IBT's actions at the outset that made it clear they had no interest in representing us (i.e. their unwillingness to provide a representation structure that would adequately represent us). Something close to 100% of your pilots voted IBT, so only a fool would think that a Frontier pilots would have a chance in getting fair representation.

TillerEnvy
12-16-2011, 11:12 PM
Faultpush....there is one and only one reason why the RPC had no shot at being voted in...timing. I didn't even hear about this until a few weeks before the election opened...nor did any of our pilots. If you were serious about this and us all working together, this would have been brought to our attention months before the election opened. A little education would've gone a long way. The path this took seemed nothing short of shady.

We knew our one seniority list verbiage was rock solid; apparently your leadership felt otherwise as no talk of the RPC from F9 was even mentioned until the mediator forced the joint list. A few months prior and we're probably looking at a different situation today....though it won't matter here shortly as we will all get our wish and be separate...we will keep our profits on our FFD side and have to support F9's DEN losses.

ATCsaidDoWhat
12-17-2011, 05:50 AM
Faultpush....there is one and only one reason why the RPC had no shot at being voted in...timing. I didn't even hear about this until a few weeks before the election opened...nor did any of our pilots. If you were serious about this and us all working together, this would have been brought to our attention months before the election opened. A little education would've gone a long way. The path this took seemed nothing short of shady.

We knew our one seniority list verbiage was rock solid; apparently your leadership felt otherwise as no talk of the RPC from F9 was even mentioned until the mediator forced the joint list. A few months prior and we're probably looking at a different situation today....though it won't matter here shortly as we will all get our wish and be separate...we will keep our profits on our FFD side and have to support F9's DEN losses.

Ka-CHING!!! We have a winner!

FAULTPUSH
12-19-2011, 12:24 PM
Faultpush....there is one and only one reason why the RPC had no shot at being voted in...timing. I didn't even hear about this until a few weeks before the election opened...nor did any of our pilots. If you were serious about this and us all working together, this would have been brought to our attention months before the election opened.

The idea was brought to the EXCO's attention a long time before the election. It was only brought to the pilots' attention when a deal couldn't be reached.

FAULTPUSH
12-23-2011, 07:47 AM
And on top of that, you’re now making a concerted effort to be Non-Members in the Union...

I should have mentioned that IBT won't let us join IBT and remain members of FAPA. Given all that FAPA's done for us and how little IBT has, I'm not inclined to trade the greater for the lesser.

FlyGirl007
12-23-2011, 07:55 AM
I should have mentioned that IBT won't let us join IBT and remain members of FAPA. Given all that FAPA's done for us and how little IBT has, I'm not inclined to trade the greater for the lesser.

The last time I checked, you can only be a member of one union. :rolleyes:

G-Dog
12-23-2011, 04:48 PM
I should have mentioned that IBT won't let us join IBT and remain members of FAPA. Given all that FAPA's done for us and how little IBT has, I'm not inclined to trade the greater for the lesser.

Funny how IBT is administering your contract on the IBT's dime. Time to start paying the piper.

ridered
12-25-2011, 10:15 AM
Funny how IBT is administering your contract on the IBT's dime. Time to start paying the piper.

what a JOKE the "brothahood" has provided absolutly NO verifiable documentation to support your "administration" claims......

in VIOLATION of our CBA refusing to allow our scheduling committee to drop trips to work on schedules?????? nice administration....

sizzlechest
12-26-2011, 03:13 PM
Wasn't there some sort of grievance win over health benefits or something a while back? Who is accompanying the F9 captains that have refused jumpseats over lanyards to HQ meetings?

ridered
12-26-2011, 04:59 PM
Wasn't there some sort of grievance win over health benefits or something a while back? Who is accompanying the F9 captains that have refused jumpseats over lanyards to HQ meetings?

99.9999999% of the loss of coverage for ortho benefits grievance was completed by FAPA loooooong before the forced representation.........try again

sizzlechest
12-28-2011, 02:49 PM
99.9999999% of the loss of coverage for ortho benefits grievance was completed by FAPA loooooong before the forced representation.........try again

you only partially answered the question..... try again

ridered
12-29-2011, 01:47 PM
you only partially answered the question..... try again

Don't know, just a lowly FO........... It's the capts jump seat



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