Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Stop playing the VICTIM CARD


AirbusA320
12-01-2011, 05:05 AM
Stop playing the VICTIM CARD

90% of the posts on this form is constant whining!

10,000 pilots are looking at a substantial pay cut.
Some of you guys have law degrees, MBA and other Masters degrees so why donít find a few leaders in your group and come up with your own bankruptcy buyout plan where the pilots takeover the airline. Thereís plenty of capital in the world to do it.

Step up and take some positive action.


MayDaze
12-01-2011, 05:23 AM
How do you turn a group of people who have billions of dollars into a group that has millions of dollars?

syd111
12-01-2011, 05:59 AM
Stop playing the VICTIM CARD

90% of the posts on this form is constant whining!

10,000 pilots are looking at a substantial pay cut.
Some of you guys have law degrees, MBA and other Masters degrees so why donít find a few leaders in your group and come up with your own bankruptcy buyout plan where the pilots takeover the airline. Thereís plenty of capital in the world to do it.

Step up and take some positive action.

Before you do talk to a few ual guys on how their buyout went.


Old UCAL CA
12-01-2011, 06:15 AM
...find a few leaders in your group and come up with your own bankruptcy buyout plan where the pilots takeover the airline...

'Been there, seen that...don't do it under any circumstances.

Pilots are good at managing the procedure-driven operation of airplanes...period. Your suggestion is a Chapter 7 (liquidation) just waiting to happen.

cgull
12-01-2011, 09:27 AM
Stop playing the VICTIM CARD

90% of the posts on this form is constant whining!

10,000 pilots are looking at a substantial pay cut.
Some of you guys have law degrees, MBA and other Masters degrees so why donít find a few leaders in your group and come up with your own bankruptcy buyout plan where the pilots takeover the airline. Thereís plenty of capital in the world to do it.

Step up and take some positive action.

I think they looked into an ESOP a little while back. The web site was buyitfixit.org but, the website does not work.

As I understand it, the esop rules had changed and their plan was better than the UAL ESOP but they could not get any takers and it faded away. Maybe someone in the know could comment on it.

CAL pilots tried an ESOP When Frank Lorenzo tried to acquire CAL but the state of CA approved Franks plan after he PROMISED not to move the corporation out of the state of CA. I think it only lasted 6 weeks in CA before he moved it to the same state that used prison laborers to build the state capital instead of using stone masons.

Besides, Wall Street will never let the peasants own an airline. Capitalism is for the elite to privatize the gains and then socialize the losses. Corporate Welfare, only in Amerika (or maybe China and USSR too).

Craig

80ktsClamp
12-01-2011, 09:36 AM
'Been there, seen that...don't do it under any circumstances.

Pilots are good at managing the procedure-driven operation of airplanes...period. Your suggestion is a Chapter 7 (liquidation) just waiting to happen.

Yes, this is bad idea. Very bad idea.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/dvd/fox/officespace/Office1_L.jpg

cgull
12-01-2011, 10:30 AM
'Been there, seen that...don't do it under any circumstances.

Pilots are good at managing the procedure-driven operation of airplanes...period. Your suggestion is a Chapter 7 (liquidation) just waiting to happen.

I think SWA had a secretary that became CEO and the US Air Force, Naval Air Forces use pilots to run their air wings. I have never heard of the USAF, USN, USA or USMC bring in someone from the four criminal institutions of Harvard, Princeton, Yale or Wharton to manage their air wings. I say pilots could do a much better job as evidenced by management pukes that have been at the helm of all these airlines that have gone bankrupt since deregulation and there have been 150+ bankruptcies since then. All you need to do is get the pilots to run the operations side of the house and then outsource the menial management tasks of making copies and getting coffee to Kelly Girls.

Airlines are a Ponzi Scheme that uses shell game accounting practices to extract the wealth from its employees and common stock share holders to benefit the banks that loan the airline the money.

Craig

EvilMonkey
12-01-2011, 10:42 AM
Re-regulate.

Old UCAL CA
12-01-2011, 12:31 PM
...All you need to do is get the pilots to run the operations side of the house and then outsource the menial management tasks of making copies and getting coffee to Kelly Girls.

Airlines are a Ponzi Scheme that uses shell game accounting practices to extract the wealth from its employees and common stock share holders to benefit the banks that loan the airline the money.

Craig

Whatever.:rolleyes:

(United has a pilot running flight operations.....);)

cgull
12-01-2011, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE=Old UCAL CA;1094777]Whatever.:rolleyes:

Whatever my ***.

These airline management teams suck and have a horrible track record, 150+ bankruptcies.

FamilyATM
12-01-2011, 02:25 PM
When was the last time the Air Force made a profit? That tanker selection program was a well run program, only took 21 years. So please no generals running the front office at my airline. But I agree that people with no enthusiasm for aviation and view this business as a commodity have killed this industry. Since deregulation they come in for the quick dollar and then move on to the next target. They have no personal investment in the airline so the have no emotional attachment. For the legacy carriers; Juan Trippe, Howard Hughes, CR Smith and CE Woolman have all departed. There are only two US airlines left out there with people running them who have been there from day one and that's Southwest and FedEx. There will probably come a day in a generation or two after their founders have departed that they too will go through this same dance. It is sad, but it is the new business model. My heart goes out to you all at AA and wish nothing but the best for you all. Keep that passion you have for flying and providing great service. I hope you are able to put together a management team that has a passion for AA, fire in their bellies and know how to manage.

Cheers,
FamilyATM

cgull
12-01-2011, 02:49 PM
[QUOTE=FamilyATM;1094854]When was the last time the Air Force made a profit? That tanker selection program was a well run program, only took 21 years. So please no generals running the front office at my airline.

Hey, you are not speaking German or Japanese so quit whining. The Kelly Girls have managed to get 150+ bankruptcies under their belt so the generals have a better track record.

tsquare
12-01-2011, 03:17 PM
[QUOTE=FamilyATM;1094854]When was the last time the Air Force made a profit? That tanker selection program was a well run program, only took 21 years. So please no generals running the front office at my airline.

Hey, you are not speaking German or Japanese so quit whining. The Kelly Girls have managed to get 150+ bankruptcies under their belt so the generals have a better track record.


Are you for real?

Tomahawk58
12-01-2011, 04:24 PM
When was the last time the Air Force made a profit? That tanker selection program was a well run program, only took 21 years. So please no generals running the front office at my airline. But I agree that people with no enthusiasm for aviation and view this business as a commodity have killed this industry. Since deregulation they come in for the quick dollar and then move on to the next target. They have no personal investment in the airline so the have no emotional attachment. For the legacy carriers; Juan Trippe, Howard Hughes, CR Smith and CE Woolman have all departed. There are only two US airlines left out there with people running them who have been there from day one and that's Southwest and FedEx. There will probably come a day in a generation or two after their founders have departed that they too will go through this same dance. It is sad, but it is the new business model. My heart goes out to you all at AA and wish nothing but the best for you all. Keep that passion you have for flying and providing great service. I hope you are able to put together a management team that has a passion for AA, fire in their bellies and know how to manage.

Cheers,
FamilyATM

So I guess the fact that Gerard joined AA after college and spent his entire career (30 years) doesn't count as someone who's passionate about the airline business and wanting AA to succeed. Yep. we pilots are the only one's who really care and have it all figured out!

Carl Spackler
12-01-2011, 06:05 PM
So I guess the fact that Gerard joined AA after college and spent his entire career (30 years) doesn't count as someone who's passionate about the airline business and wanting AA to succeed. Yep. we pilots are the only one's who really care and have it all figured out!

What do you mean "we" there ace? Since you aren't one, you wouldn't know.

Carl

FamilyATM
12-01-2011, 06:22 PM
Tomahawk, didn't mean to p*** you off and I don't believe I said "we pilots" know all the answers. I know I don't. I was just giving my view of how the airline CEO's have changed and the business model has change. The examples of leaders I gave Trippe Pan Am, came from Wall St, Hughes TWA, was an engineer/movie producer before jumping into the airlines, CR Smith AA was an accountant, and Woolman at DAL was an agricultural engineer. Four very different men, none were "airline pilots", but they all shared a passion for aviation and vision of where they wanted to take their airlines. My opinion is AA's problems go back to Carty who to me typifies the modern era CEO. He put the screws to the employees while the executive suite protected themselves. It also didn't help that all the competition made a mad dash for BK and dumped all there liabilities. But again, that is today's new business model. Mr Aprey may very well have/had that passion of the early CEO's and that is why he stepped down vice being known as the man who took AA in to BK, who knows? My view is that SWA and FDX are run tighter and more focused due to the fact that they are still 1st generation businesses. But hey, these are just my opinions.

Seaslap8
12-01-2011, 06:31 PM
.

Hey, you are not speaking German or Japanese so quit whining. The Kelly Girls have managed to get 150+ bankruptcies under their belt so the generals have a better track record.

Huh?.........

Tomahawk58
12-02-2011, 02:21 AM
Tomahawk, didn't mean to p*** you off and I don't believe I said "we pilots" know all the answers. I know I don't. I was just giving my view of how the airline CEO's have changed and the business model has change. The examples of leaders I gave Trippe Pan Am, came from Wall St, Hughes TWA, was an engineer/movie producer before jumping into the airlines, CR Smith AA was an accountant, and Woolman at DAL was an agricultural engineer. Four very different men, none were "airline pilots", but they all shared a passion for aviation and vision of where they wanted to take their airlines. My opinion is AA's problems go back to Carty who to me typifies the modern era CEO. He put the screws to the employees while the executive suite protected themselves. It also didn't help that all the competition made a mad dash for BK and dumped all there liabilities. But again, that is today's new business model. Mr Aprey may very well have/had that passion of the early CEO's and that is why he stepped down vice being known as the man who took AA in to BK, who knows? My view is that SWA and FDX are run tighter and more focused due to the fact that they are still 1st generation businesses. But hey, these are just my opinions.

No offense taken. I do appreciate your thoughts as well. I totally agree with the need for passion at the very top and I believe Gerard Arpey typified that passion in the same spirit and vein as Bob Crandall, Al Casey and CR Smith. I do think that Gerard was indeed the gracious type and because he staked his tenure as CEO on keeping AA out of CH11, stepping aside for him was in the best interest of the new leader at the top and the company as a whole.

It's a given and everyone here what a complex business the airlines are. Some may think it simple to reduce the running of a solid airline as an easy undertaking but nothing could be further from the truth.

As I've said in a previous post, the time for finger pointing is past. If we are to exit CH11 as a stronger, vibrant and competitive air carrier, it will take every employee and leader working together!

Sliceback
12-02-2011, 04:25 AM
Huh?.........


Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!

cgull
12-02-2011, 05:34 AM
Huh?.........

The point that I was trying to make was that these management teams have bankrupted 150+ airlines and someone previously mentioned that pilots dont make good managers. So I pointed that even though there is not a profit motive in the military air wings, pilots run them and they do not run them into the ground. So another guy said he does not want a general running his airline and so I am insinuating that a military guy has done a good enough job that we did not lose the big wars and could do just as good a job operationally as the airline managers because they have run large air wings.

So, to sum it up, anybody co do a better job managing these airlines that have bankrupted these 150+ airlines.

AANoUntilRetro
12-12-2011, 01:02 PM
No offense taken. I do appreciate your thoughts as well. I totally agree with the need for passion at the very top and I believe Gerard Arpey typified that passion in the same spirit and vein as Bob Crandall, Al Casey and CR Smith. I do think that Gerard was indeed the gracious type and because he staked his tenure as CEO on keeping AA out of CH11, stepping aside for him was in the best interest of the new leader at the top and the company as a whole.

It's a given and everyone here what a complex business the airlines are. Some may think it simple to reduce the running of a solid airline as an easy undertaking but nothing could be further from the truth.

As I've said in a previous post, the time for finger pointing is past. If we are to exit CH11 as a stronger, vibrant and competitive air carrier, it will take every employee and leader working together!

Tramahawk,

I believe Gerard Arpey typified that passion in the same spirit and vein as Bob Crandall,

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING !

Gerard Arpey has not been and is not a leader. He was president when AA management force fed the last deal through. He was part and parcel to the Carty's proposed golden parachute. The recent articles applauding Arpey for his exit comments about not wanting bankruptcy are laughable.
How much in cash bonuses did he take over the past many years during the concessionary contract period?
Do you not believe that the last 5-6 years were not a well Orchestrated
manipulation of the books for bonus programs ? Do you not believe that important maintenance and customer services were shortchanged to improve the quarterly bonus schemes? Crandall was a leader who wanted to grow the airline. the same cannot be said of Arpey. He is nothing more than a crisis management hack.

As I've said in a previous post, the time for finger pointing is past. If we are to exit CH11 as a stronger, vibrant and competitive air carrier, it will take every employee and leader working together![/QUOTE]

Who are you really ? "The time for finger pointing is past" WHAT...???
Just how delusional do you have to be to realize that the finger pointing will continue until we are made whole.

We have been lied to and robbed. Even the most junior pilot on the property has to work a minimum 4 years to recover what has been lost in the A Plan. Captains with many years of service will never recover their losses. Do you really believe the PBGC (Peanut Butter and Gelly Corp) will be around to payout their modest commitments? If the PBGC does survive, how long will it take to get paid ? I suspect most of us will be dead before that happens.

I suspect the time for finger pointing will be done on judgement day.

JR

eaglefly
12-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Tramahawk,



YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING !

Gerard Arpey has not been and is not a leader. He was president when AA management force fed the last deal through. He was part and parcel to the Carty's proposed golden parachute. The recent articles applauding Arpey for his exit comments about not wanting bankruptcy are laughable.
How much in cash bonuses did he take over the past many years during the concessionary contract period?
Do you not believe that the last 5-6 years were not a well Orchestrated
manipulation of the books for bonus programs ? Do you not believe that important maintenance and customer services were shortchanged to improve the quarterly bonus schemes? Crandall was a leader who wanted to grow the airline. the same cannot be said of Arpey. He is nothing more than a crisis management hack.



Who are you really ? "The time for finger pointing is past" WHAT...???
Just how delusional do you have to be to realize that the finger pointing will continue until we are made whole.

We have been lied to and robbed. Even the most junior pilot on the property has to work a minimum 4 years to recover what has been lost in the A Plan. Captains with many years of service will never recover their losses. Do you really believe the PBGC (Peanut Butter and Gelly Corp) will be around to payout their modest commitments? If the PBGC does survive, how long will it take to get paid ? I suspect most of us will be dead before that happens.

I suspect the time for finger pointing will be done on judgement day.

JR[/QUOTE]

Just so you know, you're arguing with an AMR management lackey specifically here to blow their bugle on a pilots forum. Try not to get too worked up over it.......you'll never convince him of anything, because he's only here to convinve YOU of something.

AANoUntilRetro
12-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Who are you really ? "The time for finger pointing is past" WHAT...???
Just how delusional do you have to be to realize that the finger pointing will continue until we are made whole.

We have been lied to and robbed. Even the most junior pilot on the property has to work a minimum 4 years to recover what has been lost in the A Plan. Captains with many years of service will never recover their losses. Do you really believe the PBGC (Peanut Butter and Gelly Corp) will be around to payout their modest commitments? If the PBGC does survive, how long will it take to get paid ? I suspect most of us will be dead before that happens.

I suspect the time for finger pointing will be done on judgement day.

JR

Just so you know, you're arguing with an AMR management lackey specifically here to blow their bugle on a pilots forum. Try not to get too worked up over it.......you'll never convince him of anything, because he's only here to convinve YOU of something.[/QUOTE]

EagleFly,

I'm sure your right. I should expect the Kool-Aid from management.

JR