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View Full Version : Taking a break. Re-evaluating.


CaptainCarl
12-05-2011, 06:47 PM
Note to SkyHigh: I am not admitting defeat ;)

Well, 21DEC is the official day of Furlough #2. I can't complain one bit, as I volunteered for furlough. A myriad of reasons drove this decision -

1. The holidays are a nice time of year when you're home. They're absolutely depressing when you're sitting in a hotel in some city far from home. So, the company deciding to furlough four days before Christmas was a big middle finger to some, but for me, it was more of a holiday miracle.

2. Since nothing is really happening at my company and attrition has come to a stand still, there's a fairly decent chance I was going back on reserve. "Forget that noise," I said. Reserve sucks. It's like being a prison b!tch for scheduling. They call all the shots and you don't have any choice but to take it.

3. Trans States is a dying airline. Hulas Kanodia is a business man through and through - we are just pawns in his game of chess. And who can blame the man? He's trying to make money any way he can. Did he spit in our face with the GoJet thing? Hell yeah, he did. But all that matters now is that he got away with it. And now with this BS "preferential hiring" thing in our contract, some Waterskiers are actually considering going over to GoJet with half their longevity and none of their seniority. :mad: WHY? If you were gonna do that, two to five years ago was a good time. Hell, October was a good time, on the front end of the most recent hiring wave. But now? After we get effed? That's just letting airline management all over know that they can get away with any kind of scheme they want, regardless of what legal, binding contract they've signed. Anyway, with the loss of more aircraft, it's time to cut our losses and run. Of course, if something crazy happens and we double our fleet size or some such nonsense, then I'll probably be back. But then I'll be holding a line with some semblance of control over my schedule.

4. I'm so damn close to finishing my A&P I can almost taste the newly minted plastic card :) And no reason to let a semester go by when I'd probably end up mandatory furloughed in late Winter, early Spring time. Two classes left, reciprocating theory and reciprocating overhaul. Then it's the O&P's and I'm good to wrench on aircraft for life. So awesome.

5. I'd like to enjoy a little bit of my youth. Chase women. Go do stupid stuff, like jump out of airplanes, off cliffs, etc. I'll enslave myself to the airlines again when things get moving in the right direction.

6. I want to fly something other than jets for the rest of my life. Gonna bob around the DFW area and see what there is for 135-operators, night freight, traffic watch, stuff like that. Once I have my A&P, maybe I can find something a little more interesting in AK or west of the Mississippi.

I gotta admit, ever since I found out there was a finite amount of time left in the regional world (at least, this time around), I have been pretty damn happy. My outlook has improved quite a bit. This turned more into a "Hopes and Dreams" speech than the "Re-evaluating" one I intended. Oh well, there's no rules here... and even if there were, I'd probably bend them.


HercDriver130
12-05-2011, 07:35 PM
Good Luck Carl.

CaptainCarl
12-06-2011, 03:04 AM
Good Luck Carl.

Thanks, Herc.


vagabond
12-06-2011, 07:05 AM
I am a glass-half-full person so I tend to see change as a good thing, an opportunity to do something I probably would never do. And what better time to do this than when you're still young. I did a lot of what you call "stupid things" when I was young, and I don't regret any of it one bit. You have the added advantage of having thought out this whole process in a rational manner.

Just remember what I've always posted on these forums: what happens to you (live well, live in poverty, finding a job, buying a home, meeting someone else, etc) depends on luck/opportunity and the choices you make. You have been presented an opportunity and you made some choices. We are all rooting for you that these are the correct choices.

Some advice from someone who's eaten more salt than you have eaten rice: don't go into debt, don't do anything on impulse, keep a positive attitude and sense of humor, maintain your health, ask for help if you need it, sustain your relationships with family and friends.

Last bit of legal advice from an old legal aid lawyer: apply for unemployment. The first hurdle is how the company reports your separation to the unemployment office. If a layoff, you are automatically eligible for unemployment, but if the company deems your voluntary furlough as a voluntary quit, then you need to appeal that and go to a hearing. My offer is still standing to you (and any others similarly situated at Trans States), to answer questions and represent you, pro bono, at a hearing.

Cubdriver
12-06-2011, 08:17 AM
Good luck Carl. I support your decision. I doubt you will miss the regionals if it was just a grind.

DYNASTY HVY
12-06-2011, 06:44 PM
A position just opened up at the FAA if your interested ?:)
Best of luck to you .


Ally

captain152
12-06-2011, 07:06 PM
Best of luck Carl!!

Fair winds and blue skies :)

block30
12-06-2011, 08:13 PM
Best wishes...I hope you stay on the forum. I have been reading your posts for awhile. I feel badly for you Waterskiers and not so happy with what I feel Go Jet has in many ways done to you all. I know a guy personally who flies for Trans States so another reason I keep an eye on you. Again, best wishes. Keep us informed.

johnso29
12-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Good Luck Carl! Way to have a positive outlook! Do it while you're young.

CaptainCarl
12-07-2011, 06:00 PM
I am a glass-half-full person so I tend to see change as a good thing, an opportunity to do something I probably would never do. And what better time to do this than when you're still young. I did a lot of what you call "stupid things" when I was young, and I don't regret any of it one bit. You have the added advantage of having thought out this whole process in a rational manner.

Just remember what I've always posted on these forums: what happens to you (live well, live in poverty, finding a job, buying a home, meeting someone else, etc) depends on luck/opportunity and the choices you make. You have been presented an opportunity and you made some choices. We are all rooting for you that these are the correct choices.

Some advice from someone who's eaten more salt than you have eaten rice: don't go into debt, don't do anything on impulse, keep a positive attitude and sense of humor, maintain your health, ask for help if you need it, sustain your relationships with family and friends.

Last bit of legal advice from an old legal aid lawyer: apply for unemployment. The first hurdle is how the company reports your separation to the unemployment office. If a layoff, you are automatically eligible for unemployment, but if the company deems your voluntary furlough as a voluntary quit, then you need to appeal that and go to a hearing. My offer is still standing to you (and any others similarly situated at Trans States), to answer questions and represent you, pro bono, at a hearing.

Thanks for the words of wisdom, I will keep them in mind at all times. And thanks for the pro bono offer of legal aid. It shouldn't come down to that but if it does, I'll definitely get in contact with you.

CaptainCarl
12-07-2011, 06:01 PM
Good luck Carl. I support your decision. I doubt you will miss the regionals if it was just a grind.

Thanks Cub! I won't miss the regionals, not one bit.

CaptainCarl
12-07-2011, 06:02 PM
A position just opened up at the FAA if your interested ?:)
Best of luck to you .


Ally

Maybe in six months or so. Why, did someone retire?

CaptainCarl
12-07-2011, 06:04 PM
Best of luck Carl!!

Fair winds and blue skies :)

Thanks Capt.152! See ya out there, man.

CaptainCarl
12-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Best wishes...I hope you stay on the forum. I have been reading your posts for awhile. I feel badly for you Waterskiers and not so happy with what I feel Go Jet has in many ways done to you all. I know a guy personally who flies for Trans States so another reason I keep an eye on you. Again, best wishes. Keep us informed.

Oh, I'll be around for sure, I've met a lot of cool people through this Forum and wouldn't think of leaving any time soon. I'll post an update as the future unfolds.

CaptainCarl
12-07-2011, 06:08 PM
Good Luck Carl! Way to have a positive outlook! Do it while you're young.

Thanks johnso! I gotta say man, you (even though you never worked for HK, right?) and all the other ex-Waterskiers who made it out alive and moved on to bigger and better things are my inspiration to keep on trucking.

SkyHigh
12-08-2011, 06:46 AM
Best of luck to you.

Skyhigh

johnso29
12-08-2011, 08:00 AM
Thanks johnso! I gotta say man, you (even though you never worked for HK, right?) and all the other ex-Waterskiers who made it out alive and moved on to bigger and better things are my inspiration to keep on trucking.

Nope. Never worked for HK. I refused to apply to any company he was involved with. I also live within 40 minutes of STL, so QOL wise it would have been great. But I heard too many horror stories, plus I chucked bags out at STL for TSA when I was in college. This was when they still had J32's, J41's, and ATR 42/72's. It only took 3 months of witnessing the dysfunction of TSA before I quit. :D

CaptainCarl
12-08-2011, 10:08 AM
Nope. Never worked for HK. I refused to apply to any company he was involved with. I also live within 40 minutes of STL, so QOL wise it would have been great. But I heard too many horror stories, plus I chucked bags out at STL for TSA when I was in college. This was when they still had J32's, J41's, and ATR 42/72's. It only took 3 months if witnessing the dysfunction of TSA before I quit. :D

:D A smarter man than some of us, for sure. Unless something extraordinary happens at TSA, I doubt I'll ever come back. Keep on keep'n on, johnso, I might someday be buying the first round on an overnight for ya.

johnso29
12-08-2011, 10:11 AM
:D A smarter man than some of us, for sure. Unless something extraordinary happens at TSA, I doubt I'll ever come back. Keep on keep'n on, johnso, I might someday be buying the first round on an overnight for ya.

With any luck, we will be swapping seats at break time as we are crossing the Atlantic or Pacific. :)

CaptainCarl
04-28-2012, 01:37 PM
The Businessman and The Fisherman

An American businessman took a vacation to a small coastal Mexican village on doctor’s orders. Unable to sleep after an urgent phone call from the office the first morning, he walked out to the pier to clear his head. A small boat with just one fisherman had docked, and inside the boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

“How long did it take you to catch them?” the American asked.

“Only a little while,” the Mexican replied in surprisingly good English.

“Why don’t you stay out longer and catch more fish?” the American then asked.

“I have enough to support my family and give a few to friends,” the Mexican said as he unloaded them into a basket.

“But… What do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican looked up and smiled. “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, Julia, and stroll into the village each evening, where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, senor.”

The American laughed and stood tall. “Sir, I’m a Harvard M.B.A. and can help you. You should spend more time fishing, and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. In no time, you could buy several boats with the increased haul. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats.”

He continued, “Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you would sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village, of course, and move to Mexico City, then to Los Angeles, and eventually to New York City, where you could run your expanded enterprise with proper management.

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, senor, how long will all this take?”

To which the American replied, “15-20 years, 25 tops.”

“But what then, senor?”

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right, you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions.”

“Millions senor? Then what?”

“Then you would retire and move to a small coastal fishing village, where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, and stroll in to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

From the book “The 4-hour Work Week” by Tim Ferriss.

I think about this story often, especially as the time for my return to the airlines draws nearer. I'm enjoying my life as it is now. The only thing missing is money. I don't make enough to support myself completely. I've been living these past months on what I saved in my last year working for the airlines plus my part time job. The money I earn on guarantee would be enough to pay for my bachelor's degree... and that's one of the very few reasons I will go back to what I consider modern day indentured service.

Javok
04-28-2012, 05:18 PM
A&P huh? That's pretty sweet. How long have you been working towards it? I've often played with the idea of doing such things since I enjoy turning wrenches but one thing at a time I guess.

CaptainCarl
04-29-2012, 01:46 AM
A&P huh? That's pretty sweet. How long have you been working towards it? I've often played with the idea of doing such things since I enjoy turning wrenches but one thing at a time I guess.

Two and half years. The practical exams won't be until the Fall semester as they are not offering the General exam this summer (there's three exams: General, Airframe, and Powerplant). I'm looking forward to getting my certificate and the associated associate's degree :) And then it's a couple more years to tack on a bachelor's degree in a completely unrelated field. The fun never stops.

Toasty
04-29-2012, 03:02 AM
The Businessman and The Fisherman

An American businessman took a vacation to a small coastal Mexican village on doctor’s orders. Unable to sleep after an urgent phone call from the office the first morning, he walked out to the pier to clear his head. A small boat with just one fisherman had docked, and inside the boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

I like that story. I have friends who work in investment banking - they earn lots of money but work massively long hours and are permanently miserable. Money is only compensation to a certain extent.
I'm never going to be rich as a pilot, but I have enough to live off, to afford a car and go on several vacations a year. With the way the aviation industry is going, it's unlikely I will see this all the way through as a career, but for now I will enjoy it.

SkyHigh
04-30-2012, 06:42 AM
I like that story. I have friends who work in investment banking - they earn lots of money but work massively long hours and are permanently miserable. Money is only compensation to a certain extent.
I'm never going to be rich as a pilot, but I have enough to live off, to afford a car and go on several vacations a year. With the way the aviation industry is going, it's unlikely I will see this all the way through as a career, but for now I will enjoy it.

As a pilot you get the opportunity to be broke and miserable.

Personally I never expected to have fun as an airline pilot. In college they told us that getting there is not half the fun but all the fun. I did however expect to be well paid for my miseries. I don't know where working for the airlines fits in this story. I am sure that the Mexican fisherman did not have tens of thousands in school loans to pay for an under preforming career. Nor did he have a crew scheduler telling him when he had to fish and for how long.

In addition, what is going to happen if a commercial trawler comes by and takes all the fish in the bay? If the fisherman gets caner and wants to be healed but has no money to pay for it, what then? I really like the story but I do not think it addresses the whole issue. Money and income to support yourself is important. We all could just drop everything and live like hobos but there are definite downsides.

The real issue here is that I wonder what the Mexican fisherman would think about life as an airline pilot. You get to be poor and abused but also do not have control over ones life in trade. It really is an unusual situation that does not fit into the two scenarios of the story. The banker gives up all to gain much in wealth. The fisherman sacrifices nothing to live a simple live of his own choosing. The airline pilot gives up all to get nothing. :confused: We give up control over our lives and sell our best days to a heartless company to live like poor fishermen. Does not make much sense.


Skyhigh,

The evils of money.

SkyHigh
04-30-2012, 08:28 AM
I think it really takes both. In order to life a full life in the modern world one needs the freedom and independence of the fisherman and the financial security of the executive. Self reliance and control over ones life is one of my core interests. The story of the fisherman and executive is an interesting one because it touches upon many concepts on the path to true independence. Much of what I rail against here is that in aviation we get neither.

50 years of consumerism has created a population of well trained pones. We lower our heads to have the noose placed over our necks. The illusion of a satisfying career creates college debt to be followed by crushingly low wages that keep us poor and inflexible. Consumerism stokes the fires by creating unattainable wants and a lifestyle that is self destructive. The cycle insures legions of lifelong servants to the system.

Aviation takes the pain to a whole new level. In the pursuit we give up all our control through the debt that it takes to become educated and trained then through the prison of the seniority system. A few will sneak through, most however will be grist for the mill. Pilots live where the company dictates at a wage that is well below a level that insures a fair return on our investment and at the whimsy of crew scheduling. We give up nearly everything for the privilege of putting on a clean white shirt in the morning and sitting in the right seat.

There is a better life out there.

Skyhigh

jungle
04-30-2012, 09:48 AM
I think it really takes both. In order to life a full life in the modern world one needs the freedom and independence of the fisherman and the financial security of the executive. Self reliance and control over ones life is one of my core interests. The story of the fisherman and executive is an interesting one because it touches upon many concepts on the path to true independence. Much of what I rail against here is that in aviation we get neither.

50 years of consumerism has created a population of well trained pones. We lower our heads to have the noose placed over our necks. The illusion of a satisfying career creates college debt to be followed by crushingly low wages that keep us poor and inflexible. Consumerism stokes the fires by creating unattainable wants and a lifestyle that is self destructive. The cycle insures legions of lifelong servants to the system.

There is a better life out there.

Skyhigh

So, when are you going to tell us about the better life?

The problems with aviation are also problems in many other fields.

I enjoy working a few days a month, don't want for anything and very much enjoy all of my time off.

I wonder how many of you have had the pleasure of working on a commercial fishing vessel, it is some of the toughest work in the world.

CrakPipeOvrheat
04-30-2012, 10:02 AM
Once you bid for a voluntary furlough and are awarded it, are you locked in or is it alright to change your mind?

CaptainCarl
04-30-2012, 11:49 AM
As a pilot you get the opportunity to be broke and miserable.

Personally I never expected to have fun as an airline pilot. In college they told us that getting there is not half the fun but all the fun. I did however expect to be well paid for my miseries. I don't know where working for the airlines fits in this story. I am sure that the Mexican fisherman did not have tens of thousands in school loans to pay for an under preforming career. Nor did he have a crew scheduler telling him when he had to fish and for how long.

In addition, what is going to happen if a commercial trawler comes by and takes all the fish in the bay? If the fisherman gets caner and wants to be healed but has no money to pay for it, what then? I really like the story but I do not think it addresses the whole issue. Money and income to support yourself is important. We all could just drop everything and live like hobos but there are definite downsides.

The real issue here is that I wonder what the Mexican fisherman would think about life as an airline pilot. You get to be poor and abused but also do not have control over ones life in trade. It really is an unusual situation that does not fit into the two scenarios of the story. The banker gives up all to gain much in wealth. The fisherman sacrifices nothing to live a simple live of his own choosing. The airline pilot gives up all to get nothing. :confused: We give up control over our lives and sell our best days to a heartless company to live like poor fishermen. Does not make much sense.


Skyhigh,

The evils of money.

I'm not sure if you grasped the point of my post (I think you did, sort of); I'm correlating the fisherman's life with my own as a voluntarily unemployed pilot who is enjoying life outside of the rat race that is the regional airlines. Going back to the airlines would be akin to the fisherman doing all the things the businessman suggests.

CaptainCarl
04-30-2012, 11:52 AM
So, when are you going to tell us about the better life?

The problems with aviation are also problems in many other fields.

I enjoy working a few days a month, don't want for anything and very much enjoy all of my time off.

I wonder how many of you have had the pleasure of working on a commercial fishing vessel, it is some of the toughest work in the world.

I know these things are attainable. The question is, how long will it take for me to get there? And then, is that an amount of time I am willing to sacrifice?

CaptainCarl
04-30-2012, 11:55 AM
Once you bid for a voluntary furlough and are awarded it, are you locked in or is it alright to change your mind?

I think once it's awarded, you're locked in. But you'd be better served by asking your CP for clarity.

jungle
04-30-2012, 02:46 PM
I know these things are attainable. The question is, how long will it take for me to get there? And then, is that an amount of time I am willing to sacrifice?

These things are attainable in many ways, how long have you got and do you have anything better to do?

How much time does it take to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer or businessman?

What would you do differently if you knew you were only going to live 5 more years, ten more?

What percentage of the population is going to make more than 200k a year, how many are going to get there without some real effort?

Don't be miserable in your work, whatever it may be, but there are few things worth having that don't require some real effort.

CaptainCarl
04-30-2012, 03:24 PM
These things are attainable in many ways, how long have you got and do you have anything better to do?

41 years to mandatory retirement, preferably 31, assuming I live that long. Not really, nothing I couldn't do on the road. Except for maybe starting a family and being actively involved in the raising of my children...

How much time does it take to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer or businessman?

8 years, 12+ years, 4-8 years, and depends on the business (probably 2-4 years to get it off the ground). I suppose your point is that I'm already a pilot who's most of the way to my final destination airline.

What would you do differently if you knew you were only going to live 5 more years, ten more?

I sure as hell wouldn't go back to work for the airlines. I'd skydive, base jump, sail (both air and water verisons), street luge, long board, ride my bike everyday, get my helicopter license, go hot-air ballooning, learn to fly a zeppelin, basically all the things I am waiting to do once I have some money to fund these endeavors.

What percentage of the population is going to make more than 200k a year, how many are going to get there without some real effort?

Are you saying I'm going to make 200k a year if I continue doing what I know how to do best? And it's true, there's not much effort required, just time. Precious time.

Don't be miserable in your work, whatever it may be, but there are few things worth having that don't require some real effort.

Duly noted. I'm a pretty positive guy IRL. Just want to enjoy the sunlight as much as possible.

jungle
04-30-2012, 06:26 PM
41




I sure as hell wouldn't go back to work for the airlines. I'd skydive, base jump, sail (both air and water verisons), street luge, long board, ride my bike everyday, get my helicopter license, go hot-air ballooning, learn to fly a zeppelin, basically all the things I am waiting to do once I have some money to fund these endeavors.






Duly noted. I'm a pretty positive guy IRL. Just want to enjoy the sunlight as much as possible.

Why not get paid to play? Certain units in the military can give you lots of jumps, at night too, while carrying loads of fun toys. Helicopter rides for free, or your helicopter license.
You get to blow stuff up or break it too. Boat rides, plane rides, hiking, but not any balloons or Zeppelins-those are boring anyway.
Lots of camping, mountain climbing, and many other outdoor games are available and waiting.

CaptainCarl
04-30-2012, 07:44 PM
Why not get paid to play? Certain units in the military can give you lots of jumps, at night too, while carrying loads of fun toys. Helicopter rides for free, or your helicopter license.
You get to blow stuff up or break it too. Boat rides, plane rides, hiking, but not any balloons or Zeppelins-those are boring anyway.
Lots of camping, mountain climbing, and many other outdoor games are available and waiting.

The thought has crossed my mind more than once. Still does on occasion.

SkyHigh
05-02-2012, 06:32 AM
So, when are you going to tell us about the better life?

The problems with aviation are also problems in many other fields.

I enjoy working a few days a month, don't want for anything and very much enjoy all of my time off.

I wonder how many of you have had the pleasure of working on a commercial fishing vessel, it is some of the toughest work in the world.

You are one of the lucky ones who have attained the better life as an airline pilot. The majority of the rest are stuck in miserable situations where they do not enjoy an abundance of surplus income or the time off to enjoy it.

There are only a few spots at the top.

Skyhigh

FailOperational
05-02-2012, 06:44 AM
good luck Carl... I've been in your shoes a couple of times, TWO two year breaks in 12 years so far at this career.... Knocking on all the doors and for one reason one or another hearing nothing... Still waiting on this shortage.

jungle
05-02-2012, 06:44 AM
You are one of the lucky ones who have attained the better life as an airline pilot. The majority of the rest are stuck in miserable situations where they do not enjoy an abundance of surplus income or the time off to enjoy it.

There are only a few spots at the top.

Skyhigh

Luck, fate, whatever you want to call it plays a part but fortune favors the prepared. If you decide to limit yourself to one airline, demand to be home every night, or must work in only one city or country-then you are going to find it ever more difficult.

There are only a few top spots-and this applies to any field of employment.
There are a lot of miserable people out there, in every job and all walks of life. That isn't the fault of the employment.

So, tell us about the better life.

SkyHigh
05-02-2012, 06:51 AM
Luck, fate, whatever you want to call it plays a part but fortune favors the prepared. If you decide to limit yourself to one airline, demand to be home every night, or must work in only one city or country-then you are going to find it ever more difficult.

There are only a few top spots-and this applies to any field of employment.
There are a lot of miserable people out there, in every job and all walks of life. That isn't the fault of the employment.

So, tell us about the better life.

The better life is one of more control, abundance and time. I am sure that you have accomplished that at XYZ. Good for you. Most of the rest however are stuck living a life that is not of their own choosing. Hoping in vein that one day they will break into their dreams.

Skyhigh

jungle
05-02-2012, 07:19 AM
The better life is one of more control, abundance and time. I am sure that you have accomplished that at XYZ. Good for you. Most of the rest however are stuck living a life that is not of their own choosing. Hoping in vein that one day they will break into their dreams.

Skyhigh

So, let us hear your suggestions for a better life, it is clear that people hope for a lot of things, some in vain and some not.

People do get stuck in a life not of their own choosing, but if you look at their history it is clear they made a series of choices along the way that brought them to their present condition.

For you aviation was a dead end and you chose another life-others will do this also in many fields. Nothing really new here, but if you are not happy it is time to move on.

Some might find your life a true nightmare, but it suits you and that is all that really matters. You often comment on the lives of others as being a nightmare, but they clearly don't see it the way you do. You have called both Military and Airline pilots sociopaths in the past, and you are welcome to your own point of view, but in reality control over the outcome of life is largely an illusion.

Most of us do what we can to make the puzzle fit, most of that fitting is internal.

SkyHigh
05-02-2012, 08:07 AM
So, let us hear your suggestions for a better life, it is clear that people hope for a lot of things, some in vain and some not.

People do get stuck in a life not of their own choosing, but if you look at their history it is clear they made a series of choices along the way that brought them to their present condition.

For you aviation was a dead end and you chose another life-others will do this also in many fields. Nothing really new here, but if you are not happy it is time to move on.

Some might find your life a true nightmare, but it suits you and that is all that really matters. You often comment on the lives of others as being a nightmare, but they clearly don't see it the way you do. You have called both Military and Airline pilots sociopaths in the past, and you are welcome to your own point of view, but in reality control over the outcome of life is largely an illusion.

Most of us do what we can to make the puzzle fit, most of that fitting is internal.



Jungle,

Plan B:

We are all here trying to find our own form of nirvana. Its true. The issue is that most who come to this profession hold expectations and dreams that are not commonly attainable anymore.

I believe that most who make the attempt at aviation are from middle class suburban households. They have hobbies, friends, relationships and a lifestyle comfort zone that is not easily reached as an airline pilot. The bottom rungs of aviation forces one to sell off big portions of their overall quality of life to keep the dream going. We move to armpit cities at busboy wages for undisclosed periods of time. Devoid of hope. At the whimsy of heartless companies.

In my opinion the worst that is asked of us from our careers is to become an ex-patriot aviator. To have to sell your home nation and culture to reach the next rung on the ladder is too much. Most pilots I believe have or want a family. They want their kids to play baseball and to know their grandparents. Moving to china or to the middle east to remain employed is the ultimate sacrifice for the profession.

An adventurous life is great for some however most I believe grow into an innate desire to live a life that is familiar and full of the things that make them happy outside of work. The lust for aviation is an illusion for most that take them far from the life they dreamed of and need to find a way out. This section of the forum is intended for the lost soles to try and find options.

Of course the best thing would be for all of us to be able to work for the companies of our dreams at a fair wage in the base of our choosing. If you can figure out how the rest of us can do that we will be all ears.

Skyhigh

GoPats
05-02-2012, 01:06 PM
"People do get stuck in a life not of their own choosing, but if you look at their history it is clear they made a series of choices along the way that brought them to their present condition."

And perhaps, with the power of hindsight, you can put the blame on them but everyone makes decisions with the best information available at that time. How does hindsight apply to the airline biz? Perhaps I shouldn't have chosen airline 'X' since 'Y' is now booming and 'X' is "asking for sacrifices"?
'X' looked great 5 years ago...

How many people are happy or confident right now at AA? Would you really have guessed that 15 years ago?

USMCFLYR
05-02-2012, 01:33 PM
"People do get stuck in a life not of their own choosing, but if you look at their history it is clear they made a series of choices along the way that brought them to their present condition."

And perhaps, with the power of hindsight, you can put the blame on them but everyone makes decisions with the best information available at that time. How does hindsight apply to the airline biz? Perhaps I shouldn't have chosen airline 'X' since 'Y' is now booming and 'X' is "asking for sacrifices"?
'X' looked great 5 years ago...

How many people are happy or confident right now at AA? Would you really have guessed that 15 years ago?
Nope!
It seems that 15 years ago American and United were the number one places for my peers to be getting jobs at when they moved on from the military. Hindsight is a terrible/wonderful thing.
That holds true in the hindsight required in the housing meltdown too. Real Estate seemed to be a very popular market for spouses to dive into because it seemed to be a portable job; but I know many who are now out of it or struggling over the last few years.

USMCFLYR

HercDriver130
05-02-2012, 04:10 PM
You are one of the lucky ones who have attained the better life as an airline pilot. The majority of the rest are stuck in miserable situations where they do not enjoy an abundance of surplus income or the time off to enjoy it.

There are only a few spots at the top.

Skyhigh

And the fact is... it HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY. For every "Nirvana" remembrance of airline pilots from your youth there are stories that are polar opposites. I 100% believe you when you talk of the CAs you knew in your youth, I knew some to. I also knew FEs and FOs who because of bad timing spent YEARS in the 70s and 80s on furlough.. our had airlines crash around them. Of CA's retiring at TWA with only their last 5 in the left seat....10 in the right... and 15 or more sitting sideways.

I for one am happy you are happy where you are in your life, I have read most of what you have written on this subject and seriously SKY I doubt what the situation would be you would not be Happy in this business... Oh you might tolerate for the money, but you would never truly be happy in aviation as a career.

Keep up the good work Sky... everyone you turn, opens a slot for perhaps someone who really wants in this crazy business. Like I have said before, I agree with your message, but, at least in the past, I have disagreed with your delivery.

Cheers.

jungle
05-02-2012, 07:50 PM
"People do get stuck in a life not of their own choosing, but if you look at their history it is clear they made a series of choices along the way that brought them to their present condition."

And perhaps, with the power of hindsight, you can put the blame on them but everyone makes decisions with the best information available at that time. How does hindsight apply to the airline biz? Perhaps I shouldn't have chosen airline 'X' since 'Y' is now booming and 'X' is "asking for sacrifices"?
'X' looked great 5 years ago...

How many people are happy or confident right now at AA? Would you really have guessed that 15 years ago?

You took my quote out of context, I don't blame anyone for their choices, but if you had watched Eastern go under taking friends with it, Pan Am, etc., you might have a different vision of the future.

Perhaps you get a little insight, much like early pioneers seeing their family gutted like fish, scalped or roasted over an open fire.

It isn't hindsight, it is happening now, and your choice is to react or not.

I never blame anyone for their choices, but it is best to keep recent and current history in mind. Pax airlines have had a very rough ride for a very long time.

I did not guess that 15 years ago, it was based entirely on history.

Fluglehrer
05-03-2012, 11:38 AM
Sky,
You bring up excellent points about the drawbacks to pursuing a career as an airline pilot. There are too many pilots and not enough good jobs, and a number of HR hoops to jump through, and it all requires excellent timing and luck to end up in the cockpit of a legacy airline. As you pointed out, once you get there, sitting for ten hours in the seat to the right of Mr. Personality at the front of an aluminum tube pushing through the thin air seven miles up may not be your idea of having "arrived".

But as Jungle pointed out, you made the decisions. We all do. If it doesn't work out and we don't reach the destination, or it looks like too great of a sacrifice to reach it, we assess the facts and alter course for what appears to be a fruitful path towards a new goal.

What bothers me about your posts is a sense of powerlessness and passivity. We don't live at the whims of others unless we choose to. We choose to move to an armpit city and live on poverty wages because we hope flying for that regional airline will lead to greater rewards later. We walk willingly into that noose. No small number break free of the noose and reach the majors.

Many take the military route, and there are drawbacks there too: The guy I took my formation checkride with in USAF pilot training has been pushing up daisies for over two decades now. Another guy, the best pilot and without doubt the smartest person I've had the pleasure of knowing (he flew in my T-38 fini-flight) died during a routine touch-and-go landing. There are year-long deployments to Middle East garden spots now, and the deployment cycle doesn't look like it will let up (hey, it's "The Long War").

Very few follow a path that does not pose major obstacles, and for many the path they have chosen will prove, in the end, impassable as a means to reach that goal of a right seat at a legacy airline.

As Jungle said, the pioneers faced a very risky path to a great reward. They were told wonderful stories of the Oregon Territory. Many died enroute. Many settled somewhere short of their destination and carved out a life there as best they could. A lucky few reached your neck of the woods, and built a new life in paradise (sort of). It required something other than passivity even to attempt the journey. It took gumption.

I'm not a huge fan of the way Robert Pirsig led his life, but his novel Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance was truly profound. He had some good words on gumption:

“A person filled with gumption doesn’t sit around dissipating and stewing about things. He’s at the front of the train of his own awareness, watching to see what’s up the track and meeting it when it comes. That’s gumption.

If you’re going to repair a motorcycle, an adequate supply of gumption is the first and most important tool. If you haven’t got that you might as well gather up all the other tools and put them away, because they won’t do you any good.”

I was disappointed that if Alaska called, you said you would have no choice but to go. Just tell them "no". It's not worth the "5%". You've made your decision, and I think it was correct. Don't doubt yourself. Press on full speed on the alternate (and hopefully fruitful) route.

Best of luck.

Fluglehrer
05-03-2012, 11:58 AM
... in reality control over the outcome of life is largely an illusion.

Most of us do what we can to make the puzzle fit, most of that fitting is internal.

Jungle,
Excellent words. I don't think you are speaking of compromising personal values here, but of adapting to reality as you face the daily decisions of life. I believe the name for that "internal fitting" and adaptation is the process leading to maturity.

We have some control over the circumstances of our lives, and how events play out. But we have total control over our minds, and how we choose to thnk about how our life plays out - how we react to those events.


Sometimes that reaction to events will be to change course, because we've learned something about ourselves and/or reality in the process. Or the reaction might be a steeled mind and renewed effort because we still perceive the goal as worthy of our best efforts. Depending on the individual, either path could be a proper course...whether Real Estate or Right Seat.

Since I have Pirsig open, here's a few more "Zen and the Art" quotes. I think he paraphrases your posts well:

“The real cycle you're working on is a cycle called yourself...
...The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there...
...“Is it hard?'"
"Not if you have the right attitudes. Its having the right attitudes that's hard".”
― Robert M. Pirsig (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/401.Robert_M_Pirsig), Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values (http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/175720)

Cheers,
Fluglehrer

jungle
05-03-2012, 04:13 PM
“The real cycle you're working on is a cycle called yourself...
...The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there...
...“Is it hard?'"
"Not if you have the right attitudes. Its having the right attitudes that's hard".”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values
------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of my favorite books, must have read it ten times or more over the last thirty years. It really doesn't have much to do with zen or motorcycles, but it is very valuable information.

SkyHigh
05-05-2012, 07:50 AM
I choose to be a pilot for Alaska Airlines not to be an abused regional airline pilot or humiliated corporate/135 guy. The reality is that most of us are destined for those ends. There is just not enough good jobs to go around.

It is one thing to fill out an application to be a fire fighter and get turned down. All that is lost is the hour it took to put together the application. Just getting to the point where one can fill out an application for a major airline involves most of a decade, or more, and hundreds of thousands in education, training and lost wages. Few lay out the facts to young pilots. Like lambs to the slaughter they are fed lies about pilot shortages and false dreams of a fast trip to the left seat at SWA.

Why else would rational people invest so much unless they expected an equitable return? In the end the choices are bleak. Quit what you have so much invested in and start over in a new path while still carrying the debt load of their dead aviation dream or stay with the sinking ship. The setback of a failed aviation career is hugely painful and effects ones life for decades.

Had someone honestly laid out the facts to me as a young person I swiftly would have chosen a different path. I believe that most others would do the same, however there is no profit in selling the reality. The system is designed to create false hopes to keep the flight school busy.

SKyhigh

jungle
05-05-2012, 01:05 PM
I choose to be a pilot for Alaska Airlines even though there were many other viable alternatives. I limited myself even though I knew there were few good jobs to go around. By placing so many limits on my employment I screwed the pooch.

It is one thing to fill out an application to be a fire fighter and get turned down. All that is lost is the hour it took to put together the application, and a lifetime of dreams and preparation. Just getting to the point where one can fill out an application for a major airline involves most of a decade, or more, and hundreds of thousands in education, training and lost wages. Few lay out the facts to young pilots. Like lambs to the slaughter they are fed lies about pilot shortages and false dreams of a fast trip to the left seat at SWA. This applies to many other college grads, just look at the employment rate and level.

Why else would rational people invest so much unless they expected an equitable return? In the end the choices are bleak. Quit what you have so much invested in and start over in a new path while still carrying the debt load of their dead employment dream or stay with the sinking ship. The setback of a failed career in any field is hugely painful and effects ones life for decades.

Had someone honestly laid out the facts to me, other than a Captain or two, as a young person I swiftly would have chosen a different path. I believe that most others would do the same, however there is no profit in selling the reality. The system is designed to create false hopes to keep the education bubble busy.SKyhigh

Fixed it for you, hope that helps. Just trying to give you a more balanced outlook.:)

MD11
05-05-2012, 07:49 PM
Hey Jungle, I have respect for you through your posts... so don't take this in the wrong way..
Robert Persigs book on Zen etc. etc. is crap. It is a self indulgent musing of self love and narcissism. I kinda started to get the idea when he continually hammered his mechanically inept motorcycle partner. More so, his emotional abandonment of his son on the trip. Drivel,,, nothing but drivel.
Now, may I suggest a very good book that actually has value and a few motorcylces?
"Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work " by Mathew B. Crawford.

Herb Flemmming
05-05-2012, 07:55 PM
Good luck man, when i was a A&P working on 1900's i made more money than i did as a 1900 contract capt overseas, and I was home, worked 40 hours a week. Look into Boeing for a career in aviation mx.

jungle
05-05-2012, 09:16 PM
Hey Jungle, I have respect for you through your posts... so don't take this in the wrong way..
Robert Persigs book on Zen etc. etc. is crap. It is a self indulgent musing of self love and narcissism. I kinda started to get the idea when he continually hammered his mechanically inept motorcycle partner. More so, his emotional abandonment of his son on the trip. Drivel,,, nothing but drivel.
Now, may I suggest a very good book that actually has value and a few motorcylces?
"Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work " by Mathew B. Crawford.

The story and Pirsigs life may well be crap, but there is a lot more to the book than his story, in fact the story and his life are really minor components.

Having spent a lot of time actually working on motorcycles and other vehicles I will look at your suggested title. Thanks for the tip.

SkyHigh
05-06-2012, 06:37 AM
Hey Jungle, I have respect for you through your posts... so don't take this in the wrong way..
Robert Persigs book on Zen etc. etc. is crap. It is a self indulgent musing of self love and narcissism. I kinda started to get the idea when he continually hammered his mechanically inept motorcycle partner. More so, his emotional abandonment of his son on the trip. Drivel,,, nothing but drivel.
Now, may I suggest a very good book that actually has value and a few motorcylces?
"Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work " by Mathew B. Crawford.


I have quoted that book a time or two here as well.

Skyhigh

Fluglehrer
05-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Robert Persigs book on Zen etc. etc. is crap. It is a self indulgent musing of self love and narcissism.
...Drivel,,, nothing but drivel.
Now, may I suggest a very good book that actually has value and a few motorcylces?
"Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work " by Mathew B. Crawford.

Crawford's book is excellent. Oddly enough, its most valuable insights are nearly exactly the same as Pirsig's book. Sorry Pirsig's narcissism (which I don't deny he has, and which ruined his following book) repulsed you so strongly. Despite that narcissism his analysis was excellent, and very close to what Crawford was saying.

Anything by Kevin Cameron at Cycle World is also very good.

Away from motorcycles, the work of George Braly, John Deakin, and Walter Atkinson in understanding and operating GA piston engines has been very insightful. John Deakin has some good stuff online at avweb: John Deakin's Engine-Related Columns (http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182544-1.html)

CaptainCarl
05-29-2012, 07:01 AM
Well, I'm recalled and requalled.

Can't say I'm excited about being back.

Maybe I should be...

I know one thing for sure though - they aren't paying me enough to be gone 20 days a month. I'm very quickly learning how much I believe my time is worth, and $36.36/hour x 72 hour guarantee isn't even close to the number that I have in mind.

Finished the last of my A&P courses. Starting summer school today. Checkrides in the Fall semester. Starting the four-year degree online in the Fall, as well. Once I have that damn bachelor degree, maybe my outlook will improve.