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nerd2009
12-11-2011, 04:44 AM
Are you interested in a petition to end the outdated railway labor act ?

With the Presidential election looming in the near future, just maybe it's possible to put an end to Managements negotiation tool,...the Railway Labor Act :p


EWRflyr
12-11-2011, 04:58 AM
Are you interested in a petition to end the outdated railway labor act ?

With the Presidential election looming in the near future, just maybe it's possible to put an end to Managements negotiation tool,...the Railway Labor Act :p


Won't really help much when the courts are so management-friendly, too.

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 05:04 AM
Are you interested in a petition to end the outdated railway labor act ?

With the Presidential election looming in the near future, just maybe it's possible to put an end to Managements negotiation tool,...the Railway Labor Act :p


I'd sign it in a heartbeat. Yet another thing we'd have to fight ALPA for though.

Carl


dragon
12-11-2011, 05:05 AM
I've always wondered why this isn't ALPA's number one agenda item. Seems to me, they would have more power without the RLA. It would give us more leverage.

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 05:08 AM
I've always wondered why this is ALPA's number one agenda item. Seems to me, they would have more power without the RLA. It would give us more leverage.

Did you mean: why ISN'T this ALPA's number one agenda item?

Carl

Pineapple Guy
12-11-2011, 05:33 AM
I'd sign it in a heartbeat. Yet another thing we'd have to fight ALPA for though.

Carl

Hey Carl. It's a bit cloudy today. Could you tell me why that is ALPA's fault too?

Also, my ankle hurts from jogging yesterday. I think that must be ALPA's fault as well. Please confirm.

DeadHead
12-11-2011, 05:44 AM
Hey Carl. It's a bit cloudy today. Could you tell me why that is ALPA's fault too?

Also, my ankle hurts from jogging yesterday. I think that must be ALPA's fault as well. Please confirm.

The major of dues paying ALPA pilots, who have been beaten down over the last few years, have begun releasing dangerous weather-altering chemtrails while enroute to their destinations throughout the United States. The toxic haze released from said chemtrails has the effect of both thickening and condensing cloud layers, thus giving the impression of a "cloudy" sky.

Furthermore, the chemicals themselves tend to be very heavy and difficult to carry. I can see many athletic-type injuries occurring while trying to carry said chemicals to work or by possibly loading said chemicals into the aircraft's chemtrail generator. If I was a betting man, I would say you sustained your ankle injury that way, as opposed to jogging.


What....you asked Carl, didn't you?

scambo1
12-11-2011, 06:27 AM
Hey Carl. It's a bit cloudy today. Could you tell me why that is ALPA's fault too?

Also, my ankle hurts from jogging yesterday. I think that must be ALPA's fault as well. Please confirm.


I think we'd have to fight ALPA to try to get rid of the RLA. Why hasn't ALPA made it an agenda item to get rid of their version of green kryptonite. I know, lasers are a bigger threat.

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 06:31 AM
Hey Carl. It's a bit cloudy today. Could you tell me why that is ALPA's fault too?

Also, my ankle hurts from jogging yesterday. I think that must be ALPA's fault as well. Please confirm.

CAPA was able to use their political clout to schedule meetings to amend the RLA and section 1113C of the bankruptcy code. ALPA used their political clout to kill this meeting. Not aid CAPA's efforts, but kill those efforts.

That's what my comments are based on. You'll notice they had nothing to do with weather, or jogging.

Carl

dragon
12-11-2011, 06:41 AM
Did you mean: why ISN'T this ALPA's number one agenda item?

Carl
You're right, too little checking on my part. Will fix. The ALPA crowd won't answer the question though.

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 07:08 AM
You're right, too little checking on my part. Will fix. The ALPA crowd won't answer the question though.

They won't answer because they can't. The sad fact is that the RLA actually works to foster ALPA's new agenda of never wanting to demand something that might cause a strike. Then they get to excuse that weakness by saying: "Hey guys, it's not our fault. We'd love to get you those raises, but the RLA just doesn't allow strikes anymore."

Carl

Pineapple Guy
12-11-2011, 09:29 AM
CAPA was able to use their political clout to schedule meetings to amend the RLA and section 1113C of the bankruptcy code. ALPA used their political clout to kill this meeting. Not aid CAPA's efforts, but kill those efforts.

That's what my comments are based on. You'll notice they had nothing to do with weather, or jogging.

Carl

Source, please.

Pineapple Guy
12-11-2011, 09:35 AM
They won't answer because they can't. The sad fact is that the RLA actually works to foster ALPA's new agenda of never wanting to demand something that might cause a strike. Then they get to excuse that weakness by saying: "Hey guys, it's not our fault. We'd love to get you those raises, but the RLA just doesn't allow strikes anymore."

Carl

Carl, higher pay = higher dues.

Please justify your constant allegations that everything ALPA does is designed to result in less pay --> lower dues for the machine. That seems illogical.

block30
12-11-2011, 09:35 AM
CAPA was able to use their political clout to schedule meetings to amend the RLA and section 1113C of the bankruptcy code. ALPA used their political clout to kill this meeting. Not aid CAPA's efforts, but kill those efforts.

That's what my comments are based on. You'll notice they had nothing to do with weather, or jogging.

Carl

....CAPA now!

SlickMachine
12-11-2011, 09:59 AM
Hey Carl. It's a bit cloudy today. Could you tell me why that is ALPA's fault too?

Also, my ankle hurts from jogging yesterday. I think that must be ALPA's fault as well. Please confirm.


I think we'd have to fight ALPA to try to get rid of the RLA. Why hasn't ALPA made it an agenda item to get rid of their version of green kryptonite. I know, lasers are a bigger threat.

Moon-based lasers are an even bigger threat. Why isn't ALPA in that one?

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 11:33 AM
Source, please.

Just read it from a CAPA source last week. I'll try to find it. Keep reminding me if I forget because it's important.

Carl

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 11:45 AM
Carl, higher pay = higher dues.

Please justify your constant allegations that everything ALPA does is designed to result in less pay --> lower dues for the machine. That seems illogical.

I've never said anything of the sort. What I've repeatedly said is that everything ALPA does is to ensure its own survival. The Moak reality is one of engaging management in a totally non-threatening manner. He believes that small cost of living style gains is better than fighting hard for restoration that might cause (in his mind) companies to go bankrupt again. The problem comes about with how you state that strategy to a group of pilots who would perceive that as weak and surrendering without a fight. So how is ALPA doing it? By not even mentioning the RLA and 1113C as a threat to pilots. By not joining CAPA in their recent attempt at amending the RLA and 1113C. Thus you get to hide behind the RLA and 1113C to your pilots who might want to fight.

They think this strategy will result in a steadier industry, which they think will lead to steadier pilot salaries. Again, it's not about how much extra dues they might be able to get, it's about ensuring a long-term steady and forecastable dues income stream for ALPA.

Carl

Molon Labe
12-11-2011, 12:34 PM
I've never said anything of the sort. What I've repeatedly said is that everything ALPA does is to ensure its own survival. The Moak reality is one of engaging management in a totally non-threatening manner. He believes that small cost of living style gains is better than fighting hard for restoration that might cause (in his mind) companies to go bankrupt again. The problem comes about with how you state that strategy to a group of pilots who would perceive that as weak and surrendering without a fight. So how is ALPA doing it? By not even mentioning the RLA and 1113C as a threat to pilots. By not joining CAPA in their recent attempt at amending the RLA and 1113C. Thus you get to hide behind the RLA and 1113C to your pilots who might want to fight.

They think this strategy will result in a steadier industry, which they think will lead to steadier pilot salaries. Again, it's not about how much extra dues they might be able to get, it's about ensuring a long-term steady and forecastable dues income stream for ALPA.

Carl

Carl,
Extremely good post, ALPA cares nothing about the direction of the pilot or the pilot profession, only its own continued existence, ALPA has willingly let the profession die a death of a thousand cuts... (Much like ths character Po Han in The Sand Pebbles) as long as a steady predictable flow of dues comes in.

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 01:25 PM
Carl,
Extremely good post, ALPA cares nothing about the direction of the pilot or the pilot profession, only its own continued existence, ALPA has willingly let the profession die a death of a thousand cuts... (Much like ths character Po Han in The Sand Pebbles) as long as a steady predictable flow of dues comes in.

Thanks man. It doesn't do my heart any good to talk about ALPA this way. I was an ALPA guy who did ALPA work for all 3 of my airlines and was proud to do it. What ALPA has devolved into now however, is a damn shame.

Carl

Pineapple Guy
12-11-2011, 01:37 PM
He [Moak] believes that small cost of living style gains is better than fighting hard for restoration that might cause (in his mind) companies to go bankrupt again....

They think this strategy will result in a steadier industry, which they think will lead to steadier pilot salaries...

I don't believe for a minute, Moak thinks cost of living style gains are better than fighting for more. It is about "reasonableness". You think APA was reasonable - I don't. You think USAPA is being reasonable - I don't. Having said that, I also don't think cost of living is reasonable; it's gonna take a lot more than that for me to vote yes.

Having said that, if the choice is "reasonable", or bankruptcy again; I'll take reasonable. I guess that makes me a Moak supporter. I'm OK with that.

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll continue to say it. As soon as you show me a pilot group that has taken a hard stance against their management and that resulted in above industry pay and working conditions for an extended period of time, I'll be on board. In the meantime, I'll stick with the only strategy that has delivered 20+% gains since exiting bankruptcy. Something no one else has come close to achieving.

Carl Spackler
12-11-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't believe for a minute, Moak thinks cost of living style gains are better than fighting for more. It is about "reasonableness".

I don't believe that for a minute because there is no evidence from Moak for anything else but:
1. Constructive Engagement resulting in small incremental gains
2. RJ's being "good for Delta" resulting in the worst outsourcing of any Major.

You think APA was reasonable - I don't.

No, I think that demanding restoration adjusted for inflation during a time where almost everyone else was either in bankruptcy or just exiting was a strategic error.

You think USAPA is being reasonable - I don't.

No, I believe USAPA is being understandable. The group is comprised of Allegheny, Mohawk, Piedmont, PSA and a few other pilot groups. You cannot make the case that only these groups of pilots were the crazed animals of the industry. What happened to them was horrible. There reaction to it was predictable.

Having said that, I also don't think cost of living is reasonable; it's gonna take a lot more than that for me to vote yes.

Excellent. The problem is that I know that we'll have to fight our union just as hard as management to achieve that.

Having said that, if the choice is "reasonable", or bankruptcy again; I'll take reasonable. I guess that makes me a Moak supporter. I'm OK with that.

I don't know how you could have lived through our history and still say that. I would NEVER again give one penny of concessions. EVER. The judge will do what he'll do, but I won't give a penny prior. That's because we now all know that entering bankruptcy has nothing to do with labor costs. If management is planning on going, they're going.

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll continue to say it. As soon as you show me a pilot group that has taken a hard stance against their management and that resulted in above industry pay and working conditions for an extended period of time, I'll be on board.

I'll give you four. Northwest, Southwest, FedEx and UPS. With NWA, we fought those SOB's hard for decades, but lost our gains with 9-11 and BK. The other 3 didn't lose, and had to fight their managements hard to get what they have. SWAPA in particular for them to keep their industry leading scope.

In the meantime, I'll stick with the only strategy that has delivered 20+% gains since exiting bankruptcy. Something no one else has come close to achieving.

Stick with whatever you wish, but it's simply not true.

Carl

Molon Labe
12-11-2011, 05:21 PM
P.G. You wouldn't happen to be Lee Moak's ghostwriter would you? The style resemblance rears it's head occasionally and I just wondered....

MachJ
12-11-2011, 10:46 PM
I have friends who work at Amtrak, which is also (obviously) governed by the provisions of the RLA. Their work rules are way better than any pilot contract that I'm familiar with. It took a strong union for them to get these work rules. I think the RLA becomes the scapegoat a lot of times when in reality it is our unions working towards their own agendas instead of in the interests of the pilots they represent.

Carl Spackler
12-12-2011, 05:54 AM
I have friends who work at Amtrak, which is also (obviously) governed by the provisions of the RLA. Their work rules are way better than any pilot contract that I'm familiar with. It took a strong union for them to get these work rules. I think the RLA becomes the scapegoat a lot of times when in reality it is our unions working towards their own agendas instead of in the interests of the pilots they represent.

There is a reason the railroads have better contracts in many cases than we do. Although they are covered under the RLA, if a railroad goes bankrupt, 1113C of the bankruptcy code CANNOT be used to destroy their contracts. Railroad employee contracts are exempt from that danger. So airlines have the worst of all worlds. We are governed by an act that has to do with railroads, but we don't receive the protection from a bankruptcy judge that railroads get...because we're not a railroad.

I think that's called, getting railroaded.

Carl

cgull
12-13-2011, 10:23 PM
There is a reason the railroads have better contracts in many cases than we do. Although they are covered under the RLA, if a railroad goes bankrupt, 1113C of the bankruptcy code CANNOT be used to destroy their contracts. Railroad employee contracts are exempt from that danger. So airlines have the worst of all worlds. We are governed by an act that has to do with railroads, but we don't receive the protection from a bankruptcy judge that railroads get...because we're not a railroad.

I think that's called, getting railroaded.

Carl

Carl,

Just to add to your post:
11 U.S.C. 1167 : US Code - Section 1167: Collective bargaining agreements

Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act except in accordance with section 6 of such Act.

It is an eye opener when you compare Section 1113 to 1167 and how we are getting
screwed.

Jeffrey Skiles (Sully's Co Pilot) Explains How Railway Labor Act Hamstrings Airline Workers - Democratic Underground (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=367x24782)

Craig

CaptFuzz
12-14-2011, 01:17 PM
I have friends who work at Amtrak, which is also (obviously) governed by the provisions of the RLA. Their work rules are way better than any pilot contract that I'm familiar with. It took a strong union for them to get these work rules. I think the RLA becomes the scapegoat a lot of times when in reality it is our unions working towards their own agendas instead of in the interests of the pilots they represent.

I currently work for a railroad, and wanted to note some differences between the industries. One thing, at least with the operations crafts (conductors and engineers), each union (one representing the conductors and one the engineers) has a single national contract with all the major railroads. The pay and work rules for a conductor at one railroad are the same as at all the other major railroads, so while it may cost the company more money, it dosen't put them at a competitive disadvantage to give concessions to the union.

Additionally, there is significantly less competition in the railroad industry. If you are a company looking to move mass quantaties of goods west of the Mississippi, you only have 2 railroads to choose from. Depending on where your company is located, you may only have one. There's also no chance of a startup coming in and undercutting the established companies, as the logistics and cost of laying new track makes that next to impossible.

AxialFlow
12-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I've never said anything of the sort. What I've repeatedly said is that everything ALPA does is to ensure its own survival. The Moak reality is one of engaging management in a totally non-threatening manner. He believes that small cost of living style gains is better than fighting hard for restoration that might cause (in his mind) companies to go bankrupt again. The problem comes about with how you state that strategy to a group of pilots who would perceive that as weak and surrendering without a fight. So how is ALPA doing it? By not even mentioning the RLA and 1113C as a threat to pilots. By not joining CAPA in their recent attempt at amending the RLA and 1113C. Thus you get to hide behind the RLA and 1113C to your pilots who might want to fight.

They think this strategy will result in a steadier industry, which they think will lead to steadier pilot salaries. Again, it's not about how much extra dues they might be able to get, it's about ensuring a long-term steady and forecastable dues income stream for ALPA.

Carl+1, This guy gets it!