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Flybywine
01-20-2012, 06:35 PM
If you are a faithful union member, line pilot who flies the contract for 30+ years, and pay your union dues all the while, this is what loyalty looks like from the "Allied Pilots Association" when the storms come:


ATTENTION RETIREES
In bankruptcy, retired employees are governed under a separate part of the bankruptcy code (Section 1114) from active employees (Section 1113). Due to the potential for conflicting priorities and interests, APA has elected not to represent retired pilots during the AMR bankruptcy proceedings. As an administrative result of the decision, retirees are restricted from accessing the membersí side of alliedpilots.org. As a convenience to retired pilots, retiree benefit information has been moved to the public side of alliedpilots.org and may be accessed by clicking here.

About APA (http://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/default.aspx)


B757200ER
01-21-2012, 06:36 AM
Anyone suprised? What active union represents retirees over active employees?

sailingfun
01-21-2012, 06:41 AM
Anyone suprised? What active union represents retirees over active employees?

Its actually a portion of the law and process. Under the RLA retires are not considered union members and don't pay dues. The union would face a DFR lawsuit if they choose to support retires from active members.
Retires in this situation have to put together their own group to represent their interests. Its simply how the law and the RLA function. The group representing the retires at Delta were able to effect many changes beneficial to retires and still have some things that are working. Most retires at Delta came out better then active pilots.
Chapter 11 sucks for everyone. Everyone has to be alert to represent their own interests.


labbats
01-21-2012, 07:05 AM
Everyone respects and thanks the retirees for their work over the years. This isn't a choice for the APA to make. It's a law.

tsquare
01-21-2012, 07:24 AM
Nothing to see here...

sailingfun
01-21-2012, 11:09 AM
Everyone respects and thanks the retirees for their work over the years. This isn't a choice for the APA to make. It's a law.

Not only is it the law but the vast majority of retired pilots at AMR have nothing to fear from the filing. Their retirement could be taken in a 100 percent lump sum. Even if they choose a annuity in the A plan if they are over 60 its likely that the PBGC will cover very close to 100 percent of the expected benefit.

DAL73n
01-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Not only is it the law but the vast majority of retired pilots at AMR have nothing to fear from the filing. Their retirement could be taken in a 100 percent lump sum. Even if they choose a annuity in the A plan if they are over 60 its likely that the PBGC will cover very close to 100 percent of the expected benefit.

Sailing - not sure where you got your numbers but PBGC is NOWHERE CLOSE to covering the A-Plan.

Maximum Monthly Guarantee Tables (http://www.pbgc.gov/wr/benefits/guaranteed-benefits/maximum-guarantee.html)

PBGC Maximum Monthly Guarantees for 2012*
Age2012 Straight-Life Annuity2012 Joint and 50% Survivor Annuity** 65 $4,653.41 $4,188.07 64 $4,327.67 $3,894.90 63 $4,001.93 $3,601.74 62 $3,676.19 $3,308.57 61 $3,350.46 $3,015.41 60 $3,024.72 $2,722.25 59 $2,838.58 $2,554.72 58 $2,652.44 $2,387.20 57 $2,466.31 $2,219.68 56 $2,280.17 $2,052.15 55 $2,094.03 $1,884.63 54 $2,000.97 $1,800.87 53 $1,907.90 $1,717.11 52 $1,814.83 $1,633.35 51 $1,721.76 $1,549.58 50 $1,628.69 $1,465.82 49 $1,535.63 $1,382.07 48 $1,442.56 $1,298.30 47 $1,349.49 $1,214.54 46 $1,256.42 $1,130.78 45 $1,163.35 $1,047.02

There are the numbers and the link to the actual data. I sincerely doubt that 60-65 y.o. pilots are only getting that small of a pension (which I presume most have 25-30 years). PBGC guarantees were not made for white collar professionals and don't come anywhere near what their pensions should have paid. Find anyone who had substantial benefits (even most NB CA have 20+ years and lost a lot of money with Pension termination.

satpak77
01-22-2012, 05:15 PM
are these the age 65 retires who stayed in their seat just because they could. Now they are whining ?

gotta love the animal called "A Pilot"

Scut Farkus
01-22-2012, 06:22 PM
No those are the ones who brought us all the B-scale. Good luck to them.
Not!!

sailingfun
02-01-2012, 02:11 PM
Sailing - not sure where you got your numbers but PBGC is NOWHERE CLOSE to covering the A-Plan.

Maximum Monthly Guarantee Tables (http://www.pbgc.gov/wr/benefits/guaranteed-benefits/maximum-guarantee.html)

PBGC Maximum Monthly Guarantees for 2012*
Age2012 Straight-Life Annuity2012 Joint and 50% Survivor Annuity** 65 $4,653.41 $4,188.07 64 $4,327.67 $3,894.90 63 $4,001.93 $3,601.74 62 $3,676.19 $3,308.57 61 $3,350.46 $3,015.41 60 $3,024.72 $2,722.25 59 $2,838.58 $2,554.72 58 $2,652.44 $2,387.20 57 $2,466.31 $2,219.68 56 $2,280.17 $2,052.15 55 $2,094.03 $1,884.63 54 $2,000.97 $1,800.87 53 $1,907.90 $1,717.11 52 $1,814.83 $1,633.35 51 $1,721.76 $1,549.58 50 $1,628.69 $1,465.82 49 $1,535.63 $1,382.07 48 $1,442.56 $1,298.30 47 $1,349.49 $1,214.54 46 $1,256.42 $1,130.78 45 $1,163.35 $1,047.02

There are the numbers and the link to the actual data. I sincerely doubt that 60-65 y.o. pilots are only getting that small of a pension (which I presume most have 25-30 years). PBGC guarantees were not made for white collar professionals and don't come anywhere near what their pensions should have paid. Find anyone who had substantial benefits (even most NB CA have 20+ years and lost a lot of money with Pension termination.

I am surprised as a Delta pilot you don't have a better understanding of how the PBGC works. The maximums you quote are from the insurance component of the PBGC only. There is also a recovery component that varies with each handover to the PBGC. Many senior Delta pilots will receive more then 7000 a month if they start to draw at 65. Even taking the money at age 60 many will be over 5000. I am well over the quoted PBGC maximums on my benefit.
In the case of a retired AMR pilot a friend said that almost 100 percent took the lump sum option. They could get 100 percent in a lump. They have nothing to lose. If they did not take the lump on the A plan most get about 30 percent of final average earnings. If a pilot had a 200,000 a year FAE his benefit would be 60,000 a year. Add in the 11 percent B fund lump for his career even if he only got the PBGC numbers you listed he will not starve.
In addition to the above the calculations are different for employees already retired. I know a Delta pilot who retired with a 80,000 a year benefit from the Delta retirement fund. His PBGC payment covers all but about 300 a month. He retired in 2000 at age 60.

Readback
02-02-2012, 05:05 AM
Its actually a portion of the law and process. Under the RLA retires are not considered union members and don't pay dues. The union would face a DFR lawsuit if they choose to support retires from active members.
Retires in this situation have to put together their own group to represent their interests. Its simply how the law and the RLA function. The group representing the retires at Delta were able to effect many changes beneficial to retires and still have some things that are working. Most retires at Delta came out better then active pilots.
Chapter 11 sucks for everyone. Everyone has to be alert to represent their own interests.

The active pilots at DAL certainly looked out for THEIR interests.

Query, If a retired pilot elected to pay dues, would ALPA/APA be obligated to represent them?

So, if "retires" at DAL came out "better" than active pilots, that justifies the receipt of the "blood money" and the subsequent inactivity by the active pilot group regarding pension termination.

Then again, if retirees made out better than actives, wouldn't that be a reason for active pilots to fight the pension plan termination?

Or, did you just buy the "VooDoo economics" put out by R&I and think you were going to make out better than the retirees?:eek:

sailingfun
02-02-2012, 05:37 AM
The active pilots at DAL certainly looked out for THEIR interests.

Query, If a retired pilot elected to pay dues, would ALPA/APA be obligated to represent them?

So, if "retires" at DAL came out "better" than active pilots, that justifies the receipt of the "blood money" and the subsequent inactivity by the active pilot group regarding pension termination.

Then again, if retirees made out better than actives, wouldn't that be a reason for active pilots to fight the pension plan termination?

Or, did you just buy the "VooDoo economics" put out by R&I and think you were going to make put better than the retirees?:eek:



Retirees made out better then active pilots because Delta had a option where a pilot could take somewhere between 50 and 70 percent of his retirement in a lump sum. Virtually every retired pilot did that. The annuity portion was covered under PBGC rules. PBGC rules favor being old and already retired. Most retires did just fine overall.
It was never a us against them issue as you seem to try and make it out to be. Several former ALPA reps got together and put together a organization to represent the retired pilots. They did a good job and were able to use some ALPA resources to help them.
I have no idea about your blood money comment. What blood money? In the end when all is said and done and the various retirement contributions are accounted for most active pilots preserved a major portion of their retirement. Using very modest growth numbers 70 cents on the dollar is easy to obtain. Each pilot new retirement will have mulitple components. Note money, Claim money, MPP distribution, PBGC payment and the 14 percent DC going forward. The stock from the merger fund was also put into retirement funds but that really was a different time. Still it helps overall.

Readback
02-02-2012, 07:35 AM
Retirees made out better then active pilots because Delta had a option where a pilot could take somewhere between 50 and 70 percent of his retirement in a lump sum. Virtually every retired pilot did that. The annuity portion was covered under PBGC rules. PBGC rules favor being old and already retired. Most retires did just fine overall.
It was never a us against them issue as you seem to try and make it out to be. Several former ALPA reps got together and put together a organization to represent the retired pilots. They did a good job and were able to use some ALPA resources to help them.
I have no idea about your blood money comment. What blood money? In the end when all is said and done and the various retirement contributions are accounted for most active pilots preserved a major portion of their retirement. Using very modest growth numbers 70 cents on the dollar is easy to obtain. Each pilot new retirement will have mulitple components. Note money, Claim money, MPP distribution, PBGC payment and the 14 percent DC going forward. The stock from the merger fund was also put into retirement funds but that really was a different time. Still it helps overall.


The PWA allowed for 50% distribution as a lump sum. When you add distribution of MPP, 401K, and other plans already slated for distribution the total value bumps higher.

You are correct about the annuity and the PBGC.

It wasn't "us v. them" since the active pilots did nothing but feather their own nest. The justification, as you so eloquently stated, was to preserve a major portion of YOUR retirement.

The most important statement you made, and I think it needs repeating, was in your previous post, "Everyone has to be alert to protect their own interests."

This should be the official mantra of every pilot union going forward. As a result, EVERY pilot, active and retired, needs to watch their back.

sailingfun
02-02-2012, 10:08 AM
The PWA allowed for 50% distribution as a lump sum. When you add distribution of MPP, 401K, and other plans already slated for distribution the total value bumps higher.

You are correct about the annuity and the PBGC.

It wasn't "us v. them" since the active pilots did nothing but feather their own nest. The justification, as you so eloquently stated, was to preserve a major portion of YOUR retirement.

The most important statement you made, and I think it needs repeating, was in your previous post, "Everyone has to be alert to protect their own interests."

This should be the official mantra of every pilot union going forward. As a result, EVERY pilot, active and retired, needs to watch their back.



The lump sum could be anywhere between 50 and 70 percent since the MPP plan was inside the A plan. Any distribution from the MPP plan reduced the A plan annuity. The MPP was not a different plan and did not increase your total retirement. Its only advantage was that as a vehicle it increased your lump sum in the A plan dollar for dollar. Had the retirement plan remained in effect eventually Delta pilots would have been able to take a 100 percent lump sum.
As far as the retires verses active pilots overall the retirees maintained a more substantial portion of their retirement then the active pilots. They also received stock from the company to help offset any losses.

badflaps
02-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Retired at 50 and 25 years, pbgc is 2334.00 a month I just don't know where to spend it all.

cgull
02-06-2012, 06:09 AM
[QUOTE=Flybywine;1120185]If you are a faithful union member, line pilot who flies the contract for 30+ years, and pay your union dues all the while, this is what loyalty looks like from the "Allied Pilots Association" when the storms come:

Are you talking about the same Loyalty that the senior AMR pilots showed when they voted in a B scale wage structure in 1984ish for new hire pilots without ever reaching parity wages with A scale so that Crandal could buy a bunch of MD-80s that would enable many to upgrade to Capt on the backs of B scale new hires?

Craig

YAKflyer
02-07-2012, 09:06 PM
Retired at 50 and 25 years, pbgc is 2334.00 a month I just don't know where to spend it all.

Hey that's about $2100 a month more than I'm getting after the PBGC got finished with me. If you're not sure what to do with it send it this way.

727574drvr
02-11-2012, 01:11 PM
I am surprised as a Delta pilot you don't have a better understanding of how the PBGC works. The maximums you quote are from the insurance component of the PBGC only. There is also a recovery component that varies with each handover to the PBGC. Many senior Delta pilots will receive more then 7000 a month if they start to draw at 65. Even taking the money at age 60 many will be over 5000. I am well over the quoted PBGC maximums on my benefit.
In the case of a retired AMR pilot a friend said that almost 100 percent took the lump sum option. They could get 100 percent in a lump. They have nothing to lose. If they did not take the lump on the A plan most get about 30 percent of final average earnings. If a pilot had a 200,000 a year FAE his benefit would be 60,000 a year. Add in the 11 percent B fund lump for his career even if he only got the PBGC numbers you listed he will not starve.
In addition to the above the calculations are different for employees already retired. I know a Delta pilot who retired with a 80,000 a year benefit from the Delta retirement fund. His PBGC payment covers all but about 300 a month. He retired in 2000 at age 60. Actually, he is deadnuts on and like myself, is probably old enough to know some BNF, EAL, PAA, and TWA pilots. None of them even get close to $800 a month. I hope you do not have to learn this the hard way. Incidentally, where are you buying your weed from...;)

sailingfun
02-22-2012, 02:57 PM
Actually, he is deadnuts on and like myself, is probably old enough to know some BNF, EAL, PAA, and TWA pilots. None of them even get close to $800 a month. I hope you do not have to learn this the hard way. Incidentally, where are you buying your weed from...;)


I am getting them from being a PBGC pilot myself and knowing what the average Delta pilot received for various ages and years of service. Most pilots who were already retired and over age 60 saw very small reductions in their overall retirement. The pilot who got 2334 a month fails to mention that he took the 50 percent lump sum option plus his MPP which meant he was over 50 percent in the lump. In addition he retired 10 years early taking a big hit even if the retirement plan was intact. The 2334 he received was for the remainder of his retirement.
The PBGC punishes early retirements. Those already retired at normal ages did just fine. MY annuity from the PBGC came out much higher then I expected if I don't draw it until age 60. If I retire early and draw the money early then it goes down quite a bit.

More Bacon
02-22-2012, 05:17 PM
They also received stock from the company to help offset any losses.

Airline stock to "offset any losses." You can't miss with that strategy.
Another ALPA success story.

DAL73n
02-22-2012, 06:10 PM
I am surprised as a Delta pilot you don't have a better understanding of how the PBGC works. The maximums you quote are from the insurance component of the PBGC only. There is also a recovery component that varies with each handover to the PBGC. Many senior Delta pilots will receive more then 7000 a month if they start to draw at 65. Even taking the money at age 60 many will be over 5000. I am well over the quoted PBGC maximums on my benefit.
In the case of a retired AMR pilot a friend said that almost 100 percent took the lump sum option. They could get 100 percent in a lump. They have nothing to lose. If they did not take the lump on the A plan most get about 30 percent of final average earnings. If a pilot had a 200,000 a year FAE his benefit would be 60,000 a year. Add in the 11 percent B fund lump for his career even if he only got the PBGC numbers you listed he will not starve.
In addition to the above the calculations are different for employees already retired. I know a Delta pilot who retired with a 80,000 a year benefit from the Delta retirement fund. His PBGC payment covers all but about 300 a month. He retired in 2000 at age 60.

Well, since I was furloughed when it was frozen and my only earnings were first year pay (with 3 mos. of second year pay) I'll try not to get too excited about my $300/month PBGC pension @ Age 65. Also, if everyone made out so well with the PBGC why is everyone so hurting that they will need to fly until age 65. Also, also know a few United retirees that got killed in the BK - 30+ retired WB CA getting Pension cut from $100K+ to about $30K. Also, there were no provisions in PBGC for "early" retirement at age 60 (PBGC assumes normal retirement of age 65) so every pilot gets a hit for early retirement. I'd love to see some PBGC estimates of these larger pensions that you're claiming everyone has. I was originally planning on a 17 year career at DAL, finishing as a NB CA with a 3 year FAE of about $200K to have an $80K pension. Now I'll be lucky if I can finish at age 65 with $1 Million in my 401K which will probably be able to generate $40K or so in retirement. I don't have any career expectations of making even NB CA before age 65 and certainly don't expect to ever make $200K even if we hit a home run with this next contract. I'm glad you did great with PBGC - would love to hear some more "winner's" post their PBGC success stories.

finis72
02-23-2012, 05:43 AM
Well, since I was furloughed when it was frozen and my only earnings were first year pay (with 3 mos. of second year pay) I'll try not to get too excited about my $300/month PBGC pension @ Age 65. Also, if everyone made out so well with the PBGC why is everyone so hurting that they will need to fly until age 65. Also, also know a few United retirees that got killed in the BK - 30+ retired WB CA getting Pension cut from $100K+ to about $30K. Also, there were no provisions in PBGC for "early" retirement at age 60 (PBGC assumes normal retirement of age 65) so every pilot gets a hit for early retirement. I'd love to see some PBGC estimates of these larger pensions that you're claiming everyone has. I was originally planning on a 17 year career at DAL, finishing as a NB CA with a 3 year FAE of about $200K to have an $80K pension. Now I'll be lucky if I can finish at age 65 with $1 Million in my 401K which will probably be able to generate $40K or so in retirement. I don't have any career expectations of making even NB CA before age 65 and certainly don't expect to ever make $200K even if we hit a home run with this next contract. I'm glad you did great with PBGC - would love to hear some more "winner's" post their PBGC success stories.

You need to talk to Karen Brown at DALPA, she is an expert on the PBGC as you obviously have a lot of "bad gouge" on the subject. I will also get over $7000/mo from the PBGC.

badflaps
02-23-2012, 06:10 AM
Finis72 The operative word is WILL. Be sure to confirm your first $7000 check.

crzbone3
02-23-2012, 06:11 AM
Actualy your retierment pay will be more like $86,000/yr with a 4%return on your 1 milion. You forgot your going to die around 80 years of age and the million will be down to zero when you die. Your planning on leaving 1 million in your estate since you never plan on spending any of your 401k and just live of the interest. My pension goes to zero when I die thats how you have to figure yours. The real question is a 401k better or a pension and the answer is not known unless you know when your going to die.

finis72
02-23-2012, 07:03 AM
Airline stock to "offset any losses." You can't miss with that strategy.
Another ALPA success story.

Bacon, you are such a tool and so predictable. My DL stock just about doubled, I wish my other investments did as well.

sailingfun
02-23-2012, 07:58 AM
Well, since I was furloughed when it was frozen and my only earnings were first year pay (with 3 mos. of second year pay) I'll try not to get too excited about my $300/month PBGC pension @ Age 65. Also, if everyone made out so well with the PBGC why is everyone so hurting that they will need to fly until age 65. Also, also know a few United retirees that got killed in the BK - 30+ retired WB CA getting Pension cut from $100K+ to about $30K. Also, there were no provisions in PBGC for "early" retirement at age 60 (PBGC assumes normal retirement of age 65) so every pilot gets a hit for early retirement. I'd love to see some PBGC estimates of these larger pensions that you're claiming everyone has. I was originally planning on a 17 year career at DAL, finishing as a NB CA with a 3 year FAE of about $200K to have an $80K pension. Now I'll be lucky if I can finish at age 65 with $1 Million in my 401K which will probably be able to generate $40K or so in retirement. I don't have any career expectations of making even NB CA before age 65 and certainly don't expect to ever make $200K even if we hit a home run with this next contract. I'm glad you did great with PBGC - would love to hear some more "winner's" post their PBGC success stories.


What many Delta pilots want to forgot about or simply don't want to mention is how the retirement plan was restructured and what they really got.
The first thing to keep in mind is the PBGC only pays against earned retirement not future expectations. If you were a new hire you had little or no earned retirement.
A former Delta pilot now has a retirement based on many different pots of money so to speak.
1. PBGC annuity
2. MPP money
3. Note money
4. DC plan going forward
5. Merger Stock
6. Claim money

Numbers 5 and 6 could be argued to not be retirement money however even just using the first 4 pots of money former Delta pilots should see about 70% of what they old plan would have provided. That was based on paying taxes on the lumps awarded. Now that tax relief has been approved the 70% number will be higher. In my case my investments with those pots of money have done OK and I am looking at about 80% at age 60. Considering what happened at many companies in the last 20 years filing chapter 11 our union was able to salvage quite a bit for the pilot group. In addition as a former Delta pilot I am 100 percent divorced from Delta airlines for all my retirement. That to me is worth the 20 percent hit I am taking. I have had several pilots tell me that they were getting pennies on the dollar. I take out a pencil and ask what their PBGC amount is, what their MPP and note lump sums were and then figure out a DC total amount. No one is getting pennies on the dollar. It always comes out pretty decent using modest assumptions.

More Bacon
02-24-2012, 10:27 AM
Bacon, you are such a tool and so predictable. My DL stock just about doubled, I wish my other investments did as well.

Good work! Keep holding it. I'm sure it will make you a very wealthy man.