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View Full Version : Emirates Training Dept


EZBW
02-15-2012, 02:50 AM
For those in the know.... Any info regarding the Training Department at Emirates, would be greatly appreciated. Check rides from hell...or laid back learning environment? Initial...recurrent...upgrade...What to expect?

The million$ Q: If you knew then what you know now, would you have come?


sunnfun
02-15-2012, 09:04 AM
I knew then what I know now. It's no big secret and easily researched and hasn't really changed much over the years. And yes I would do it again.

If you plan to move you and your family half way around the world you owe yourself some decent research. If you come over for the interview bring the wife and maybe spend a few extra days.

The training department has greatly improved over the last few years and the checking is mostly fair. There's always "some", but I don't think they're any worse than other airlines I've experienced before.

Typhoonpilot
02-15-2012, 09:38 PM
Last question first. The training differences at EK over airlines in the USA were not even a factor in my decision to join the airline.

That said, training at EK is different than most airlines in the USA. Training is much more serious and the student's are held to very high standards.

The initial training progresses at a very reasonable pace. There is about 3 weeks of generic training when you start. Stuff like dangerous good, crm, human resources, etc. It gives someone a chance to get a head start on the systems and procedures study if they choose to make use of that extra time.

Key point there. I highly recommend guys come to EK alone for 3 months if possible. It's not always possible if there are children involved and it's the start of the school year. If it's the middle of the school year, leave the kids and wife at home and come to EK alone to start. That saves a lot of time and hassle of dealing with settling the family in Dubai while you should be concentrating on training. The other thing that can wait is shopping. Just live a bare bones lifestyle for 3 months. Don't go out shopping for Cars, TVs, stereos, . Just get the essentials done and then start studying.

The type rating training starts with CBT for systems. There is very little class room discussion on systems. Another key point, there is no type rating oral on systems. This is a big difference in training. All you'll get is a 100 question multiple choice test on systems at the end of the CBT/Fixed base training. Your type ride ( or skills test as we call it ) will only have a couple of questions that are more than likely operational rules or how to perform a specific manuever. So there is no need to memorize the exact function of every switch on the overhead panel like you might at a U.S. airline. You can if you want, but nobody is ever going to ask those type of questions.

A far larger emphasis is put on procedures and flows. So prior to fix base training ( IPT in the B777 ) one really should get in depth into the FCOM normal procedures to get the flows down pat. The verbiage also needs to be exact as that is the requirement.

A lot of the training is self study. You are expected to have the self-discipline to study on your own and come to each and every training session prepared. There is no spoon feeding of information ( which U.S. airlines tend to do ).

The flying part in the simulator is pretty easy. In fact, the skills test, is simple. Unlike a type rating ride in the USA, on a skills test, under the CARs you can repeat up to 3 items. For example. You screw up the V1 cut because you're pitch control is not good ( nerves maybe ). You can do it over. If it's good on the second try, it's still a pass. Procedures and management will be looked at more closely than on a U.S. type ride though.

When line training starts, it is very different. Line training covers a lot of areas for new hires. They need to see the different areas that we fly so they'll get trips to Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. There will be ETOPS, HF Radio, CPDLC, and lots of stuff that some guys have never seen before. Again, a lot of self study and preparation is required for each and every flight. A trainee is expected to study the route and all the alternate airports along it so that they have a good idea where to go in an emergency. There are tools provided in the LIDO charts and OM-C, as well as online for that study. A syllabus is provided for points to discuss in cruise.

Of course there is the flying the airplane part as well. A lot of technique gets shown in line training. Much of it comes straight out of the FCTM so that book becomes much more important for line training. It's a lot more work than line training in the USA.

The training culture is a blend of British, Australian, and other. There are instructors and examiners from all over the world. Each country and each individual brings with them a slightly different view on how to train. It's impossible to standardize the training as a result of these deep cultural differences. Fortunately some of the worst cultures of training tend to be kept out of the training department at Emirates. There are a few exceptions, but by and large it is a very good group of guys.

The one complaint that comes up a lot is checking versus training. Many trainees feel that they are being checked on each and every training event. To an extent ( maybe even a large extent ) this is true. Again, that is cultural. Culture meaning country background of the instructor and cultural meaning the way it's been done at Emirates for many years. There have been positive changes to that in the last few years, but there is still a long way to go.

All events are graded. That's just the way it is. That bugs a lot of people. myself included, but it's not going to change. Grading is from 1-5. 1 being unsafe and 5 being very good. 3 means "could be improved". A grade of a 2 is the only way we can get more training if someone requires it. So those grades can be quite common to see because the training program is set to the minimum required. If someone needs a little more help a grade of 2 has to be given or they won't get the extra help ( sim session, flight, etc ). That is demorilizing to a student who is working hard, but still struggling. Yet, it's the only way under the current system for the instructor to help the student get the extra training. Trainers can get a bad rap over that, but their intentions are often times good.

What can really get frustrating is standardization. In training you might get one guy who insists you do it "this" way and then the next day you get a new guy who criticzes you for doing it the way you were just told. This problem is known, but so difficult to tackle. We can resort to the book and what it says, but then we get "cultural" difference in how to interpret the written English word. Practicality sometimes get thrown out the window with certain cultures because they must follow the exact wording of the procedure ( or their interpretation of it ).



Typhoonpilot


FLowpayFO
02-15-2012, 09:57 PM
Typhoonpilot should be awarded the APC's "Contributor of the Year" award.

Always posting great insightful and aiding information in regards to Emirates.

Senior Skipper
02-15-2012, 10:31 PM
Thanks for the excellent post TP. It seriously is interesting that there is no systems oral. Obviously you guys are required to have the same systems knowledge as any other pilot. How does the EK training dept test your systems knowledge?

rotorhead1026
02-15-2012, 10:46 PM
LIn training you might get one guy who insists you do it "this" way and then the next day you get a new guy who criticizes you for doing it the way you were just told. This problem is known, but so difficult to tackle.

Quite common all over the world, I'm afraid.

Typhoonpilot
02-15-2012, 10:50 PM
The upgrade process at Emirates really starts with recurrent training events. To be eligible for upgrade pilots must perform well on their recurrent training.

The upgrade process starts when the qualifications have been met in terms or hours, time in company, etc. A letter is sent to the pilot asking them to schedule a time to take the technical quiz and psych assessment. Sunnfun can correct me on the current process if I get it out of order here. Once those are done an interview with the deputy chief pilot or his delegate is arranged ( this is going to change soon to other people, but the interview will still occur ). In this interview the candidate is expected to answer scenario based questions as if they were the captain. This means they must be very familiar with all the information in the company OM-A ( operations manual ) as well as fleet specific technical matters. This all occurs before the pilot even begins training. It is expected that they have been studying for the previous 3-5 years and are ready to perform in the role as captain.

Of important note, none of that has anything to do with the training department. The training department only sees the candidate once they have jumped through all the above hoops as set out by the specific fleet chief pilot's office. A number of pilots are held back from even starting the upgrade if they do not pass the above process. Most often they get help in the required area and within a year or so they get through the process and start the training. There are some who never do, but that is very rare.

Once the upgrade training starts is goes pretty fast. There is some ground school ( Sunnfun, help me out here ) and then simulator starts. You would be paired with another upgrade candidate in the sim. There are 4 full flight sim sessions then a left seat skills test. That is followed by zero flight time training; LVO; ILS-PRM; and Cat C airport qual.

Once those sims are finished the candidate will do three LOS training events followed by an LOE. LOS stands for Line Oriented Simulation, LOE for Line Oriented Examination. The LOS events are meant to be training events ( again, these can end up as "checking" events if not run properly ). The LOS events have guidelines, but it's really dealer's choice as to what events will happen in them. They are meant to train a new captain in management; decision making; CRM; and to consolidate procedures.

An example of an LOS training event might be a HKG-BKK flight. Thunderstorms and rain in HKG; possible windshear on departure; MEL at the gate; passenger or cargo issues while loading. Depart after dealing with all of that then have some event in the air that requires a diversion. Could be bomb threat; sick passenger; engine failure; hydraulic problem' electrical problem; etc.

The LOS should run in real time, but because it is training stopping and re-starting are encouraged to discuss ways to improve performance or to correctly deal with a situation.

LOS training is very subjective and because of those cultural differences mentioned above can be really intimidating at times. When I went through the process many years ago it was a little different ( much less emphasis on training ) and I really felt like there was a loaded gun pointed at my head every LOS session. I felt that if I made one little mistake the gun would go off and that would be the end of the upgrade. Thankfully it has changed for the better in the last few years and it isn't that bad anymore, although some might still feel like it is.

Upgrade line training is similar to new hire line training, just different topics discussed.

The most recent statistics for upgrade show a 9% failure rate on the Boeing and a 4% rate on the Airbus. That's over a 6 month period and it's very accurate information.



Typhoonpilot

Typhoonpilot
02-15-2012, 10:59 PM
Thanks for the excellent post TP. It seriously is interesting that there is no systems oral. Obviously you guys are required to have the same systems knowledge as any other pilot. How does the EK training dept test your systems knowledge?

Thanks SS.

Systems knowledge is checked with the systems multiple choice test at the end of initial training and by a systems quiz prior to upgrade training. It is also covered at times with oral questions during simulator training. But again, nothing like a 2-4 hour type ride oral in the States.



TP

marcal
02-16-2012, 02:18 AM
If anyone wants to know what the training at Cathay is like see typhoons posts above bc it is identical. Lots of people always ask about CX's training and from the sound of it, that's exactly how they do it.

Kenny
02-16-2012, 02:43 AM
TP,

That was an excellent summation of the way the Australians view checking and training. In fact, it's so close to my experience on moving to Virgin Oz, that I broke out in a sweat.

I found it a very intense experience that required a lot of lip-biting and hard work. However, the difference between EK and DJ is that there should be an increasing amount of common sense, with the ever growing amount of American pilots at EK.

I apologize for the thread hijack but having been through this the best thing I would advise, is to remember this saying......"Resistance is futile". Don't fight the differences and learn to play the game.

sunnfun
02-16-2012, 04:11 AM
The general outline presented here is correct. The time frame from your upgrade selection letter to your upgrade interview can be less than two months, so better start preparing early.

A number of pilots are held back from even starting the upgrade if they do not pass the above process. Most often they get help in the required area and within a year or so they get through the process and start the training. There are some who never do, but that is very rare.

In the immediate past there were anywhere between 1 week and six months delay after a failed interview. The reasons can be varied, some have to go back and talk to a CRM instructor or Psychologist, others have to study some more. Some have a combination of things. Totally depends on the Interviewers (The interview is conducted by a fleet representative and an HR representative and both have equal say, meaning both need to be happy).

Once the upgrade training starts is goes pretty fast. There is some ground school ( Sunnfun, help me out here ) and then simulator starts.

The ground school consists of CRM days, LOS/LOE workshop days, a day of Performance and VNAV as well as some Air Laws/Commanders responsibility, 8 days total.

The whole course consists of 26 training days. All in all a very tight program and additional training can and will be assigned where necessary.

If you fail the program you will be reassigned to the right seat and go back to the line and will be re-invited once fleet thinks you're ready again. This can be anywhere from a couple of months to a few years. If you go back to the line for more than 12 months you have to repeat the whole process, i.e. tech exam/psych evaluation and interview.

Fleet has the oversight to allow additional training and, if you fail, how soon you'll be able to try again.

Hope this helps?

ross9238
02-16-2012, 06:40 AM
I do apologize to the op of the thread but I have a question regarding medicals. Does EK accept applicants with a special issuance first class?

sunnfun
02-16-2012, 06:51 AM
I do apologize to the op of the thread but I have a question regarding medicals. Does EK accept applicants with a special issuance first class?

Why don't you post a new thread with your question? I'm sure you'll get an answer to your question faster (I don't know the answer...).

Short Final
02-16-2012, 12:27 PM
TP/Sunn et al.

Are the new hired pilots who successfully complete training type rated in the plane or is it an SIC type?

SF

oh4gto
02-16-2012, 01:32 PM
You get typed. No SIC.

Typhoonpilot
02-16-2012, 05:21 PM
It's called a P2 type rating, which is for first officers. P1 is for captains. The P1 and P2 can be transferred to an FAA certificate as an SIC rating. The only way to get a full type rating on the FAA certifcate is to go through an FAA approved course then take a type ride.


Typhoonpilot

Short Final
02-16-2012, 05:37 PM
Thanks again TP.

filejw
02-16-2012, 06:59 PM
Last question first. The training differences at EK over airlines in the USA were not even a factor in my decision to join the airline.

That said, training at EK is different than most airlines in the USA. Training is much more serious and the student's are held to very high standards.

The initial training progresses at a very reasonable pace. There is about 3 weeks of generic training when you start. Stuff like dangerous good, crm, human resources, etc. It gives someone a chance to get a head start on the systems and procedures study if they choose to make use of that extra time.

Key point there. I highly recommend guys come to EK alone for 3 months if possible. It's not always possible if there are children involved and it's the start of the school year. If it's the middle of the school year, leave the kids and wife at home and come to EK alone to start. That saves a lot of time and hassle of dealing with settling the family in Dubai while you should be concentrating on training. The other thing that can wait is shopping. Just live a bare bones lifestyle for 3 months. Don't go out shopping for Cars, TVs, stereos, . Just get the essentials done and then start studying.

The type rating training starts with CBT for systems. There is very little class room discussion on systems. Another key point, there is no type rating oral on systems. This is a big difference in training. All you'll get is a 100 question multiple choice test on systems at the end of the CBT/Fixed base training. Your type ride ( or skills test as we call it ) will only have a couple of questions that are more than likely operational rules or how to perform a specific manuever. So there is no need to memorize the exact function of every switch on the overhead panel like you might at a U.S. airline. You can if you want, but nobody is ever going to ask those type of questions.

A far larger emphasis is put on procedures and flows. So prior to fix base training ( IPT in the B777 ) one really should get in depth into the FCOM normal procedures to get the flows down pat. The verbiage also needs to be exact as that is the requirement.

A lot of the training is self study. You are expected to have the self-discipline to study on your own and come to each and every training session prepared. There is no spoon feeding of information ( which U.S. airlines tend to do ).

The flying part in the simulator is pretty easy. In fact, the skills test, is simple. Unlike a type rating ride in the USA, on a skills test, under the CARs you can repeat up to 3 items. For example. You screw up the V1 cut because you're pitch control is not good ( nerves maybe ). You can do it over. If it's good on the second try, it's still a pass. Procedures and management will be looked at more closely than on a U.S. type ride though.

When line training starts, it is very different. Line training covers a lot of areas for new hires. They need to see the different areas that we fly so they'll get trips to Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. There will be ETOPS, HF Radio, CPDLC, and lots of stuff that some guys have never seen before. Again, a lot of self study and preparation is required for each and every flight. A trainee is expected to study the route and all the alternate airports along it so that they have a good idea where to go in an emergency. There are tools provided in the LIDO charts and OM-C, as well as online for that study. A syllabus is provided for points to discuss in cruise.

Of course there is the flying the airplane part as well. A lot of technique gets shown in line training. Much of it comes straight out of the FCTM so that book becomes much more important for line training. It's a lot more work than line training in the USA.

The training culture is a blend of British, Australian, and other. There are instructors and examiners from all over the world. Each country and each individual brings with them a slightly different view on how to train. It's impossible to standardize the training as a result of these deep cultural differences. Fortunately some of the worst cultures of training tend to be kept out of the training department at Emirates. There are a few exceptions, but by and large it is a very good group of guys.

The one complaint that comes up a lot is checking versus training. Many trainees feel that they are being checked on each and every training event. To an extent ( maybe even a large extent ) this is true. Again, that is cultural. Culture meaning country background of the instructor and cultural meaning the way it's been done at Emirates for many years. There have been positive changes to that in the last few years, but there is still a long way to go.

All events are graded. That's just the way it is. That bugs a lot of people. myself included, but it's not going to change. Grading is from 1-5. 1 being unsafe and 5 being very good. 3 means "could be improved". A grade of a 2 is the only way we can get more training if someone requires it. So those grades can be quite common to see because the training program is set to the minimum required. If someone needs a little more help a grade of 2 has to be given or they won't get the extra help ( sim session, flight, etc ). That is demorilizing to a student who is working hard, but still struggling. Yet, it's the only way under the current system for the instructor to help the student get the extra training. Trainers can get a bad rap over that, but their intentions are often times good.

What can really get frustrating is standardization. In training you might get one guy who insists you do it "this" way and then the next day you get a new guy who criticzes you for doing it the way you were just told. This problem is known, but so difficult to tackle. We can resort to the book and what it says, but then we get "cultural" difference in how to interpret the written English word. Practicality sometimes get thrown out the window with certain cultures because they must follow the exact wording of the procedure ( or their interpretation of it ).



Typhoonpilot

TP ..If you ever come home you will find that most the US airlines training is pretty much as you described above and has been for a few years. Its called APQ.......Nice post

oh4gto
02-16-2012, 10:12 PM
It's called a P2 type rating, which is for first officers. P1 is for captains. The P1 and P2 can be transferred to an FAA certificate as an SIC rating. The only way to get a full type rating on the FAA certifcate is to go through an FAA approved course then take a type ride.


Typhoonpilot

Guess i heard wrong.

rotorhead1026
02-17-2012, 07:03 AM
TP ..If you ever come home you will find that most the US airlines training is pretty much as you described above and has been for a few years. Its called APQ.......Nice post

Errr,it was known as AQP back at brand US, although it may well be called APQ somewhere, for some reason ...

Yeah, things have changed a bit. A good AQP program is as well-balanced a setup as I've come across. You can still get one hell of an oral or type ride, but what used to be PC's are now more of a learning experience - at least if you come prepared.

Now, Typhoonpilot, blending British and Aussie anything might be really fun to watch. :)

BGD011
02-17-2012, 07:54 AM
Its called APQ.......Nice post

Advanced Qualification Program (AQP)

WHACKMASTER
02-17-2012, 11:32 AM
Sorry for the slight thread drift, but inquiring minds want to know. What is the cockpit culture like out on the line? At Cathay and Emirates for example, is reading strictly verboten and frowned upon (in other words it doesn't happen at all)?

What about hand-flying? I hear that it's practically always coupled above 1,000' both on decent and climb out?

767200
02-17-2012, 12:59 PM
Sorry for the slight thread drift, but inquiring minds want to know. What is the cockpit culture like out on the line? At Cathay and Emirates for example, is reading strictly verboten and frowned upon (in other words it doesn't happen at all)?

What about hand-flying? I hear that it's practically always coupled above 1,000' both on decent and climb out?


At EK, you can hand fly up to 10,000 feet but you must have A/THR and FD unless inoperative.

As far as the culture, I'd say is fairly relaxed. Reading is ok, never had a problem.

WHACKMASTER
02-17-2012, 01:46 PM
At EK, you can hand fly up to 10,000 feet but you must have A/THR and FD unless inoperative.

As far as the culture, I'd say is fairly relaxed. Reading is ok, never had a problem.


Hmm. Good to hear about the reading. I was under the impression that the long-haul flights were spent twidling your thumbs in between position reports. That's a little more relaxed than I would have expected at Emirates.

I see you're on the Bus. So even on the Boeing the policy is that you can hand-fly up to and down from 10,000', but ATs and FDs must be on at all times?

Senior Skipper
02-17-2012, 04:19 PM
At EK, you can hand fly up to 10,000 feet but you must have A/THR and FD unless inoperative.


That last part bothers me a bit. What happens when you're dispatched without the FD or A/T? Are you expected to be able to maintain the same level of proficiency?

Do most Captains realize the need for some raw data flying and allow it?

What about hand-flying in IMC at a not so busy airport?

Senior Skipper
02-17-2012, 04:21 PM
It's called a P2 type rating, which is for first officers. P1 is for captains. The P1 and P2 can be transferred to an FAA certificate as an SIC rating. The only way to get a full type rating on the FAA certifcate is to go through an FAA approved course then take a type ride.


Typhoonpilot

What's the difference between the P1 type and P2 type?

sunnfun
02-17-2012, 06:35 PM
That last part bothers me a bit. What happens when you're dispatched without the FD or A/T? Are you expected to be able to maintain the same level of proficiency?

I guess so... But that is recognized as somewhat of a problem and the company has introduced an annual "manual handling sim" to maintain handling skills.

This isn't only an Emirates problem, the whole industry has realized the need for improvement in manual handling skills.

Do most Captains realize the need for some raw data flying and allow it?

Not raw data, no.

What about hand-flying in IMC at a not so busy airport?

Sure why not. The only restriction is below 10,000ft and F/D and A/T on. I personally hand fly almost all my approaches when in VMC.

What's the difference between the P1 type and P2 type?

In the US you'd call a P2 type an SIC-only type rating.

Senior Skipper
02-17-2012, 06:55 PM
Thanks.

Surely a yearly hand-flying session won't substitute for actually doing it on the line. Assuming the wx isn't right down to mins, I'll sometimes go raw data on an approach. I suppose that would get me called into the CP's office?

You said that you hand fly visual approaches. Are you then allowed to turn off the FD?

Thanks for the P1/P2 clarification. Does the certificate say B777 P2 only? If so, how do you get around that problem when the CA is on break, and 2 FO's are up front?

sunnfun
02-17-2012, 07:07 PM
Surely a yearly hand-flying session won't substitute for actually doing it on the line.

Of course not. But the whole industry has recognized the need for more exposure to manual handling and this is Emirates first step. I'm sure others will follow but EK is a spreadsheet driven operation so they're collecting more data about it.

Assuming the wx isn't right down to mins, I'll sometimes go raw data on an approach. I suppose that would get me called into the CP's office?

What other SOP's do you regularly violate? ;)

You said that you hand fly visual approaches. Are you then allowed to turn off the FD?

No, I said I regularly handfly instrument approaches while in VMC. We hardly ever do visual approaches. And like I said before F/D and A/T must stay engaged.

Thanks for the P1/P2 clarification. Does the certificate say B777 P2 only? If so, how do you get around that problem when the CA is on break, and 2 FO's are up front?

It does say P2 on the certificate, like it says "SIC privileges only" on the FAA certificate.

For augmented operations almost all F/O's get left seat trained and authorized to operate from the left seat in cruise. Ex cadet-F/O's have to have a certain amount of hours before they get left seat authorized.

Senior Skipper
02-17-2012, 07:45 PM
Not violating any SOP's. My airline still allows me to do a raw data approach. Obviously, I don't do it at the end of a long day, going into ORD when the wx is 200-1/2, but at some quiet class D airport- why not?

Sorry for misrepresenting you on the visual approaches. I suppose I'd find that a bit annoying. Unless APP mode is active, I find the FD distracting on a visual.

Any idea why EK seems so hell bent on forcing you to use the automation? Is it that they don't trust their pilots, or do they just want to get their money's worth since they paid for all the fancy equipment?:D

Thanks for all your input.

sunnfun
02-17-2012, 07:51 PM
Not violating any SOP's. My airline still allows me to do a raw data approach. Obviously, I don't do it at the end of a long day, going into ORD when the wx is 200-1/2, but at some quiet class D airport- why not?

Absolutely, totally agree with you on that. I'm just saying that it is SOP here not to and you can't go against it.

Sorry for misrepresenting you on the visual approaches. I suppose I'd find that a bit annoying. Unless APP mode is active, I find the FD distracting on a visual.

On a visual approach it is SOP here to switch the F/D's off as well, just to be clear. It's just that we hardly ever do them, they're actually discouraged. I don't agree with that policy.

PILOTGUY
02-18-2012, 03:29 AM
TP ..If you ever come home you will find that most the US airlines training is pretty much as you described above and has been for a few years. Its called APQ.......Nice post

That is not entirely accurate. I worked in the training dept. part-time at my last airline. The self-study required at EK is nothing, absolutely nothing like the spoon feeding of information that you get in the States.