Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Us/aa sli


aafurloughee
04-20-2012, 05:55 AM
Looks like it,s gonna happen. So on that note, any care to chime in on how they believe the SLI is gonna look like? By my avatar, you can tell that I,m not holding my breath. Corporate flying it is till death do us part.


Wingtips
04-20-2012, 06:44 AM
Looks like it,s gonna happen. So on that note, any care to chime in on how they believe the SLI is gonna look like? By my avatar, you can tell that I,m not holding my breath. Corporate flying it is till death do us part.

Sounds like from I have read they wont touch anything for at least 5 years.

LittleBoyBlew
04-20-2012, 07:22 AM
DOH with fences. When the 7 year fence drops, any seniority issues will be moot.;)


B757200ER
04-20-2012, 07:22 AM
Noone really knows...and to speculate is completely useless.

VenetianFryCook
04-20-2012, 10:23 AM
Noone really knows...and to speculate is completely useless.

THIS. There are about 800 steps in a merger like this. The SLI is step 676. We are on step 8. Better that we not make wild statements that could divide AA and US pilots when unity is in our best interest.

shiznit
04-20-2012, 10:29 AM
THIS. There are about 800 steps in a merger like this. The SLI is step 676. We are on step 8. Better that we not make wild statements that could divide AA and US pilots when unity is in our best interest.

The US group has NO IDEA when it comes to that concept......and AA hasn't been too good at it either over the years......

Just be thankful that if it goes through that the USAPA nightmare will finally be over for ALL the pilots of the LCC.

RJtrashPilot
04-20-2012, 10:31 AM
THIS. There are about 800 steps in a merger like this. The SLI is step 676. We are on step 8. Better that we not make wild statements that could divide AA and US pilots when unity is in our best interest.


Yes. AA pilots don't want any division, especially now. Since the shoe is on the other foot and they are in bankruptcy, they surely wouldn't want the same screw job that they gave the TWA pilots a decade ago. What was one of the reasons they cited? Oh yes, that the TDub guys should accept the staple job because their company is in bankruptcy and they should feel lucky just to have a job. I guess they learned from their own mistake.

aa73
04-20-2012, 10:44 AM
Yes. AA pilots don't want any division, especially now. Since the shoe is on the other foot and they are in bankruptcy, they surely wouldn't want the same screw job that they gave the TWA pilots a decade ago. What was one of the reasons they cited? Oh yes, that the TDub guys should accept the staple job because their company is in bankruptcy and they should feel lucky just to have a job. I guess they learned from their own mistake.

No comparison between AA/TWA and AA/US whatsoever. Two totally different scenarios, dynamics, sizes, career expectations, etc. In fact, the ONLY similarity is that AA is in Ch 11, but in a vastly different financial picture than TWA was at the time of acquisition. USAir won't be "picking up the assets of AMR" like AMR did with TWA. This deal will be a full blown merger, much like DL/NW and UA/CO.

Not saying the staple job was fair: it wasn't. And also not saying I won't get screwed: I fully expect to lose a ton of seniority out of this if it goes through. More than anything, I hope we DID learn a ton from our past mistakes.

And there is not a day that goes by where I don't say a prayer of thanks for my job!

Regards,
73

Daniel Larusso
04-20-2012, 11:08 AM
Aa73,

Completely understand what you're saying, but most of the differences pilots talk about in such things belong/matter in a good bar not in front of an arbitrator. Not confornting, but generally true.

texaspilot76
04-20-2012, 11:22 AM
Can someone explain the "fence"? Does that mean that no US pilot could bid for a DFW opening until the fence is over? Does the fence prohibit the company from opening a base in DFW for US flown aircraft (i.e. airbus)? In addition, when the company is merged and the fence is in place, where do new hires go? Can they bid any base?

ftrflyboy
04-20-2012, 12:22 PM
where do new hires go?

hehe, good luck with any hiring.

Bill Lumberg
04-20-2012, 12:26 PM
Eventually there will unbelievable hiring at a newly combined US/AA. US East has all old pilots. Within 7 years, most will be gone. AA has very old Captains and very old FOs. When the B Scale was in effect back in the 80s at AA, the military guys wouldn't touch it, so AA hired a lot of younger civilian pilots. After the B-Scale went away, the older military pilots reapplied, and now they are just as old as the Captains. So, they will both retire together, leaving a huge gap for hiring. It may take 7 years, but eventually there will be huge numbers for hiring.

LittleBoyBlew
04-20-2012, 12:41 PM
In 7 years US retires aprox, 1865 pilots....

tailendcharlie
04-20-2012, 12:46 PM
A ratioed-by-equipment sli using the APA and Nic. Top half would be heavy AA with narrowbody AA & US pilots ratioed in after that. Or, Doug, APA, and USAPA agree to use DOH with fences and let the west pilots spend a decade in court trying to fight it. Either could happen imo...

Bill Lumberg
04-20-2012, 01:02 PM
Subject: Notes from APA Meeting

Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters. Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.
Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad.
Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)
US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.

embraer
04-20-2012, 01:19 PM
Subject: Notes from APA Meeting

Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters. Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.
Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad.
Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)
US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.

Maybe I have had too much coffee.... But doesn't all this sound extremely positive for us? Especially considering what AMR proposed last month. Am I alone in being half excited about a potential merger?

Only big question left is Eagle's role in all of this. Please avoid the temptation to inject your personal doom and gloom speculations regarding Eagle here. Truth be told nobody knows and anything is possible at this point.

I'm just excited to see an actual improvement in contracts and pay raises as opposed to a race for the bottom. This is a great precedent for the entire airline industry.

GQpilot
04-20-2012, 01:40 PM
DOH with fences. When the 7 year fence drops, any seniority issues will be moot.;)

Well, I'll agree with the 7 yr fence part, the rest I'll leave up to the courts and arbitration.;)

GQpilot
04-20-2012, 01:44 PM
No comparison between AA/TWA and AA/US whatsoever. Two totally different scenarios, dynamics, sizes, career expectations, etc. In fact, the ONLY similarity is that AA is in Ch 11, but in a vastly different financial picture than TWA was at the time of acquisition. USAir won't be "picking up the assets of AMR" like AMR did with TWA. This deal will be a full blown merger, much like DL/NW and UA/CO.

Not saying the staple job was fair: it wasn't. And also not saying I won't get screwed: I fully expect to lose a ton of seniority out of this if it goes through. More than anything, I hope we DID learn a ton from our past mistakes.

And there is not a day that goes by where I don't say a prayer of thanks for my job!

Regards,
73

If this happens, I don't think you'll be losing any seniority, at least you shouldn't. My guess is it will go to arbitration and the AA pilots will be given credit for the larger wide body fleet. The seven year fence should help you keep the attrition that your retirements will bring. Best of luck to us all.

Regards,
GQ

GQpilot
04-20-2012, 01:47 PM
Maybe I have had too much coffee.... But doesn't all this sound extremely positive for us? Especially considering what AMR proposed last month. Am I alone in being half excited about a potential merger?

Only big question left is Eagle's role in all of this. Please avoid the temptation to inject your personal doom and gloom speculations regarding Eagle here. Truth be told nobody knows and anything is possible at this point.

I'm just excited to see an actual improvement in contracts and pay raises as opposed to a race for the bottom. This is a great precedent for the entire airline industry.

I heard a pilot say in relation to all of this, "be optimistic, but plan for the worst." Guess that means I'm cautiously optimistic.

tsquare
04-20-2012, 02:12 PM
DOH with fences. When the 7 year fence drops, any seniority issues will be moot.;)

New to the airline industry are you?

flybywire44
04-20-2012, 04:45 PM
Subject: Notes from APA Meeting

Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters. Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.
Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad.
Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)
US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.


Thank you Bill Lumberg,

This is one of the most relevant APF posts I've ever seen. Do you have more specifics on scope? Is scope proposed to stay in the ~76 seat range? How many more 70+ seat regionals will AA want to operate?

I hope all three of our groups work together. Nic or not, there is plenty of opportunity for East & West in this transaction with APA. I would think the courts will settle all East/West SLI lawsuits soon. We need to keep in mind how well NW and DL pilot groups worked together. :cool:

Zoomie
04-20-2012, 08:19 PM
And what happens to the 1600+ furloughs at AA?

buddies8
04-20-2012, 08:54 PM
No comparison between AA/TWA and AA/US whatsoever. Two totally different scenarios, dynamics, sizes, career expectations, etc. In fact, the ONLY similarity is that AA is in Ch 11, but in a vastly different financial picture than TWA was at the time of acquisition. USAir won't be "picking up the assets of AMR" like AMR did with TWA. This deal will be a full blown merger, much like DL/NW and UA/CO.

Not saying the staple job was fair: it wasn't. And also not saying I won't get screwed: I fully expect to lose a ton of seniority out of this if it goes through. More than anything, I hope we DID learn a ton from our past mistakes.

And there is not a day that goes by where I don't say a prayer of thanks for my job!

Regards,
73

It would be a merge if AMR management goes with the integration of the two airlines. It is an acquisition when AMR does not want the deal and the creditors do. That is my understanding. Just because the unions are for it does not mean AMR wont go kicking and bitting.

B757200ER
04-20-2012, 09:28 PM
No comparison between AA/TWA and AA/US whatsoever. Two totally different scenarios, dynamics, sizes, career expectations, etc. In fact, the ONLY similarity is that AA is in Ch 11, but in a vastly different financial picture than TWA was at the time of acquisition. USAir won't be "picking up the assets of AMR" like AMR did with TWA. This deal will be a full blown merger, much like DL/NW and UA/CO.

Now wait just a minute. Are you seriously going to use that age-old, divisive and very controversial phrase again???

If so, my question to YOU is merely this:

"What are YOUR career expectations since you work for a BANKRUPT airline?"

See how it feels? Don't expect US pilots to have any sympathy for you or AA's financial position, either, if all this comes to pass.

Bill Lumberg
04-20-2012, 11:05 PM
It would be a merge if AMR management goes with the integration of the two airlines. It is an acquisition when AMR does not want the deal and the creditors do. That is my understanding. Just because the unions are for it does not mean AMR wont go kicking and bitting.

It's up to the creditors and the judge mainly. Boeing and Airbus are happy that the orders for 73's and 319s are still intact. And notice they keep the politicians happy by keeping HQ in DFW, saving up to 6000 jobs compared to the AMR plan, and keep the AA name.

Schwanker
04-21-2012, 04:08 AM
And what happens to the 1600+ furloughs at AA?

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/61b7_swingline_stapler.jpg

Best Guess, if AMR currently has 7000 active pilots (not sure actual number) they will ratio in 7000. The rest would have recall rights. This could result in active AMR pilots being stapled with those on furlough bypass being ratio'd in above them in the final list.

Hetman
04-21-2012, 04:37 AM
2 Gal Ogre's Blood
1 Tbsp Eye of Newt
1 Tbsp Lizards Gizzard
2 Tsp Wing of Bat

Mix ingredients in large iron pot over open fire...

Good Lord. This is going to be noisy. We are going to have to get another internet. This one won't be big enough for all the "discourse" (and I use that term loosely) we are going to see both here and on the other message boards.

Quint
04-21-2012, 04:42 AM
And what happens to the 1600+ furloughs at AA?

I think that the 1600 number includes those that have bypassed, which is a pretty big number. The Bypassers would be treated as if they were on property at their current seniority. Those that haven't been offered recall, probably staple.

Quint
04-21-2012, 04:46 AM
It would be a merge if AMR management goes with the integration of the two airlines. It is an acquisition when AMR does not want the deal and the creditors do. That is my understanding. Just because the unions are for it does not mean AMR wont go kicking and bitting.

I think he's more referring to "full blown merger" as in the whole airlines merge. Rather than one picking and choosing the others assets that they want. i.e. a fragmentation scenario.

RJtrashPilot
04-21-2012, 05:19 AM
2 Gal Ogre's Blood
1 Tbsp Eye of Newt
1 Tbsp Lizards Gizzard
2 Tsp Wing of Bat

Mix ingredients in large iron pot over open fire...

Good Lord. This is going to be noisy. We are going to have to get another internet. This one won't be big enough for all the "discourse" (and I use that term loosely) we are going to see both here and on the other message boards.

Let's ask Al Gore to invent another one, then. If it weren't for him we wouldn't have this one nor global warming. He's got more money that he knows what to do with.

(Ending that previous sentence with a preposition was unintentional and purely coincidental. It's nothing to be alarmed by.)

aa73
04-21-2012, 05:27 AM
Now wait just a minute. Are you seriously going to use that age-old, divisive and very controversial phrase again???

If so, my question to YOU is merely this:

"What are YOUR career expectations since you work for a BANKRUPT airline?"


Arbitrators have always, and will always, use that dreaded word you hate when they craft an integration. It's just the nature of the beast. He takes a snapshot of the date and bases a lot of his decision on the career expectations of both airline pilot groups.

What are my career expectations? No clue at this point - but given the difference in size, routes, financials, pilot demographics - very, very different from the TWA pilot group at the time.

There is simply no comparison. TWA in its last days was in no way, shape or form comparable to AA today, BK or not. I'm not justifying the crappy and unfair treatment you guys got, but USAir merging with AA is in no way comparable to AA's picking and choosing TWA's assets, which were far less than what AA has today.

aa73
04-21-2012, 05:29 AM
I think he's more referring to "full blown merger" as in the whole airlines merge. Rather than one picking and choosing the others assets that they want. i.e. a fragmentation scenario.

Bingo, thanks.

justfun
04-21-2012, 05:58 AM
Lumberg,
I am surprised that you posted all of this on this open forum. We were asked not to post anything at all on C&R, so it would be logical that forum would fall into that request also. What are u a management hack?

TXav8r13
04-21-2012, 06:10 AM
Lumberg,
I am surprised that you posted all of this on this open forum. We were asked not to post anything at all on C&R, so it would be logical that forum would fall into that request also. What are u a management hack?

That info is already all over the Internet on several pilot related sites along with many aviation forums sites. He could have just got it from somewhere else and reposted it.

eaglefly
04-21-2012, 06:36 AM
Arbitrators have always, and will always, use that dreaded word you hate when they craft an integration. It's just the nature of the beast. He takes a snapshot of the date and bases a lot of his decision on the career expectations of both airline pilot groups.

What are my career expectations? No clue at this point - but given the difference in size, routes, financials, pilot demographics - very, very different from the TWA pilot group at the time.

There is simply no comparison. TWA in its last days was in no way, shape or form comparable to AA today, BK or not. I'm not justifying the crappy and unfair treatment you guys got, but USAir merging with AA is in no way comparable to AA's picking and choosing TWA's assets, which were far less than what AA has today.

Every merger brings different ingredients to the stew. No single past merger (or asset acquisition) will be used as a "model" should this one come to fruition. Agreed that AA's situation of market, assets, debts and future stand-alone have ZERO resemblance to where TWA was when their assets were acquired and the resultant job offers to their employees.

Justdoinmyjob
04-21-2012, 06:45 AM
Lumberg,
I am surprised that you posted all of this on this open forum. We were asked not to post anything at all on C&R, so it would be logical that forum would fall into that request also. What are u a management hack?


I may be wrong, but I don't think Lumberg is an AA employee. Maybe Inatech, but definitely not AA.

RJtrashPilot
04-21-2012, 06:55 AM
Lumberg,
I am surprised that you posted all of this on this open forum. We were asked not to post anything at all on C&R, so it would be logical that forum would fall into that request also. What are u a management hack?

If he is a management hack, then he should be bringing in "the Bobs" to help with AA's bankruptcy.


Don't forget, with everything you do, you must ask yourself:

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/889/screenshot319au8.jpg&sa=X&ei=uNOST8-OAcvoggf9hbjEAw&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHO6unpHiIWgfNkO-P5kpuPPdXghQ

Enterprise
04-21-2012, 07:02 AM
they surely wouldn't want the same screw job that they gave the TWA pilots a decade ago.

And what a screw job it was.

TWA pilots currently with seniority numbers around 8000 flying as CAPTAINS. Reserved and guaranteed CAPTAINS positions for their group. Super-seniority bidding ahead of nAAtives in STL.

Oh the humanity.

The nAAtives with 8000 seniority are 12 year narrow body FOs commuting to reserve somewhere across the country and looking at another 10-15 years to upgrade.

Please give us more details on the "screw job" the TWA pilots got and some other gut wrenching tales of victimhood worthy of a Dr. Phil sob fest.

B757200ER
04-21-2012, 07:36 AM
Arbitrators have always, and will always, use that dreaded word you hate when they craft an integration. It's just the nature of the beast. He takes a snapshot of the date and bases a lot of his decision on the career expectations of both airline pilot groups.

What are my career expectations? No clue at this point - but given the difference in size, routes, financials, pilot demographics - very, very different from the TWA pilot group at the time.

There is simply no comparison. TWA in its last days was in no way, shape or form comparable to AA today, BK or not. I'm not justifying the crappy and unfair treatment you guys got, but USAir merging with AA is in no way comparable to AA's picking and choosing TWA's assets, which were far less than what AA has today.

Wrong. Not all arbitrators use that word----APA used it liberally when AA bought TWA, to seemingly justify stapling 60% of TWA's 2400 pilots---including myself. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, are you sure you want an arbitrator (which AA & their 'unions' ensured TWA employees wouldn't have access to) to objectively (or subjectively) decide yours?

You say your career expectations are 'very, very different' from the TWA pilot group at the time AA bought TWA (all of it, not just pieces); well answer me this: How many numbers are you away from the most junior CA at AA? I'm guessing if you're a '99 hire about 4000+. I was 250 numbers away from M80/717 CA at TWA, and with annual attition at 200+, do the math. Don't even think for a second your career expectations are superior, higher or more valuable than mine were. Instead of upgrading to CA at a major airline, I was stapled, furloughed and then had to suffer the insult of the likes of YOU coming to STL to fly in MY seat while I got furloughed.

'No comparison', you say? I disagree.

RJtrashPilot
04-21-2012, 07:37 AM
And what a screw job it was.

TWA pilots currently with seniority numbers around 8000 flying as CAPTAINS. Reserved and guaranteed CAPTAINS positions for their group. Super-seniority bidding ahead of nAAtives in STL.

Oh the humanity.

The nAAtives with 8000 seniority are 12 year narrow body FOs commuting to reserve somewhere across the country and looking at another 10-15 years to upgrade.

Please give us more details on the "screw job" the TWA pilots got and some other gut wrenching tales of victimhood worthy of a Dr. Phil sob fest.

That is certainly not the case for the vast majority of them, and I think you know it. That's some nice spin, though.

If nothing else, I'm glad that my post got you wound up enough to join APC...or at least create an alter ego profile on APC.

AceOnTheRiver
04-21-2012, 09:06 AM
Wrong. Not all arbitrators use that word----APA used it liberally when AA bought TWA, to seemingly justify stapling 60% of TWA's 2400 pilots---including myself. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, are you sure you want an arbitrator (which AA & their 'unions' ensured TWA employees wouldn't have access to) to objectively (or subjectively) decide yours?

You say your career expectations are 'very, very different' from the TWA pilot group at the time AA bought TWA (all of it, not just pieces); well answer me this: How many numbers are you away from the most junior CA at AA? I'm guessing if you're a '99 hire about 4000+. I was 250 numbers away from M80/717 CA at TWA, and with annual attition at 200+, do the math. Don't even think for a second your career expectations are superior, higher or more valuable than mine were. Instead of upgrading to CA at a major airline, I was stapled, furloughed and then had to suffer the insult of the likes of YOU coming to STL to fly in MY seat while I got furloughed.

'No comparison', you say? I disagree.

I would have to say that the career expectations of AA pilots are very good considering they have the largest aircraft order in history and massive retirements coming soon.

buddies8
04-21-2012, 10:43 AM
if you say so

Scut Farkus
04-21-2012, 01:35 PM
Enterprise,
Could you provide the Date of Hires of the TWA pilots flying Captain way out of Seniority Please?
Are they 1988 hires and senior to that flying Way Junior on the list, or are you saying that all the TWA pilots were stapled with a April 2001 hire date and they are out of Seniority flying Captain???
Never seen a seniority list that Supplement CC was modified off of, if you could get one I would love to see it.
Skut

Bucking Bar
04-21-2012, 01:48 PM
Lumberg,
I am surprised that you posted all of this on this open forum. We were asked not to post anything at all on C&R, so it would be logical that forum would fall into that request also. What are u a management hack?Just because I knew you would enjoy ... Notes from APA Meeting :


Name stays AA
HQ in DFW US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding Starting point is current green book. 5.5% raise on date of signing 3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband Vac goes to 3+40/day.
Better accrual Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS...US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's. Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters.
Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.


Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad. Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA) US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.

eaglefly
04-21-2012, 01:58 PM
Enterprise,
Could you provide the Date of Hires of the TWA pilots flying Captain way out of Seniority Please?
Are they 1988 hires and senior to that flying Way Junior on the list, or are you saying that all the TWA pilots were stapled with a April 2001 hire date and they are out of Seniority flying Captain???
Never seen a seniority list that Supplement CC was modified off of, if you could get one I would love to see it.
Skut

Actually, the AA greenbook stipulates all pilots seniority is based on "length of service", thus when TWA pilots were offered employement, they should have been straight-stapled as per the contract (I beleive the TWA F/A's were). Instead, during the transition phase the parties agreed to a better methodolgy that protected most TWA captains in STL and stapled the bottom half, including those on furlough. In other words, they got a better deal then APA's own contract provided for and a better deal then the F/A's.

This new seniority list that resulted was the "modified seniority list" and is the ONLY seniority list at AA. Of course, most former TWA pilots last words on their death beds will be "the APA screwed me" and this will NEVER change. It is what it is and that's the way it is. Pointless to continue to beat this horse as not only is it dead, but is rotted to skeleton status, whose bones are scattered about.

Bill Lumberg
04-21-2012, 02:36 PM
Lumberg,
I am surprised that you posted all of this on this open forum. We were asked not to post anything at all on C&R, so it would be logical that forum would fall into that request also. What are u a management hack?

I found this on a different website. I think we are all interested in what occurs, because we want our own negotiators to know what the others are asking for. Sounds like Parker is willing to do whatever it takes to get his merger, and I want the same deal at my airline. It is the cost of doing business. Some of our guys have used AA's declining health as an excuse not to go for more, or what we actually deserve. Now, since AA is unlikely to plummet to the bottom of the ocean, it is a different story, and a different MANDATE for our negotiating committee. NO EXCUSES.

aa73
04-21-2012, 03:38 PM
Wrong. Not all arbitrators use that word----APA used it liberally when AA bought TWA, to seemingly justify stapling 60% of TWA's 2400 pilots---including myself. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, are you sure you want an arbitrator (which AA & their 'unions' ensured TWA employees wouldn't have access to) to objectively (or subjectively) decide yours?

EVERY arbitrator figures in career expectations when deciding an integration. Maybe they don't use that specific word: fine - they use some other word or formula. Who cares. Bottom line, they have always used it and will continue to use it. How else can an arbitrator justify feathering in thousands of pilots from two different groups from two different airlines with different growth/fleet/retirements/etc? APA did exactly what an arbitrator would have done - figured it from the snapshot date based on the future of both carriers from that date on. The difference - and YOU KNOW I ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!! - is that APA called all the shots. UNFAIRLY! But they did it with much advice from arbitrators with the premise of protecting as many APA jobs as they could, while designing it to withstand any lawsuit.

You say your career expectations are 'very, very different' from the TWA pilot group at the time AA bought TWA (all of it, not just pieces); well answer me this: How many numbers are you away from the most junior CA at AA? I'm guessing if you're a '99 hire about 4000+. I was 250 numbers away from M80/717 CA at TWA, and with annual attition at 200+, do the math. Don't even think for a second your career expectations are superior, higher or more valuable than mine were. Instead of upgrading to CA at a major airline, I was stapled, furloughed and then had to suffer the insult of the likes of YOU coming to STL to fly in MY seat while I got furloughed.

First of all, you didn't own any seat. Neither did I. AMR owned it. So lose your holier than thou attitude about what you "owned" and what you didn't. You didn't own squat, and neither did I.

Second of all, I am exactly 2000 #s from CA upgrade. Who gives a crap? Estimated CA upgrade shouldn't figure into career expectations at all: it changes on a whim and you know it. You could have been a 25 year CA at TWA... what if your airline was downsizing and furloughing while AA was growing and hiring? What should be done then - give you a CA seat at AA and furlough a native? You see, that's career expectations for you. Here is the bottom FACTUAL line, ER: AA today bears no resemblance whatsoever to TWA in 2001. Way ahead on size, financials, routes, fleet expansion, retirements... I could go on and on.

'No comparison', you say? I disagree.

Nope - not one comparison at all. TWA was practically a domestic airline at time of asset acquisition with a few Carib and Europe routes. South America? NONE. Asia? NONE. Far East? NONE. Widebodies? a few 762s and 763s. 777s? NONE. If AMR were that size today as well, I would gladly hand you this argument and say you are 100% right. But that ain't the case and you know it. AA/US is a complete merger of one large airline and one extremely large airline - in fact it is USAir who needs AA more than AA needs USAir. And the arbitrator will most likely decide the integration in the fairest way possible - and yes one of his factors will be CAREER EXPECTATIONS. AA/USAIR is NOT an asset acquisition with AA declaring BK as a condition of purchase.

Apples and oranges, my friend.

I'll close by saying the the entire process of the AA/TWA deal crafted by APA and AMR was unfair. No doubt about it. The ONLY fair way is through a binding neutral. But I'll also claim that a binding neutral would have given you guys something very similar, with at least one of his factors based on - you guessed it - career expectations.

KillingMeSmalls
04-21-2012, 03:40 PM
I assume most of you guys know this, but the SLI legislation, known as the McCaskill-Bond statute, was signed into law in December 2007 and is codified at 49 U.S.C. § 42112.

If this does happen it will be seen as a merger and will most likely be slotted by equipment. Not to sound condescending, but it was just killing me to read some of these posts.

aa73
04-21-2012, 03:50 PM
Enterprise,
Could you provide the Date of Hires of the TWA pilots flying Captain way out of Seniority Please?
Are they 1988 hires and senior to that flying Way Junior on the list, or are you saying that all the TWA pilots were stapled with a April 2001 hire date and they are out of Seniority flying Captain???
Never seen a seniority list that Supplement CC was modified off of, if you could get one I would love to see it.
Skut

It depends by what you mean by "out of seniority."

IMO, they are not flying CA out of seniority. Here's why: TWA CA jobs are protected under the terms of Supplement CC, which guarantees a certain number of CA jobs in STL based on a ratio of DFW and ORD CA jobs. If DFW/ORD CA jobs go up, so do STL CA jobs. If they shrink, so does STL.

So, in essence, TWA pilots have their own seniority list in STL. A pilot hired at TWA in 1988 carries around a 7500 AA seniority number, and has the seniority to fly as CA but only based out of STL, the protected cell. Otherwise, a 7500 seniority at AA is approx. 2000 numbers away from holding an AA CA position anywhere else in the system.

That's why you'll hear some natives whining about them flying out of seniority. They aren't. They are simply upgrading based on their protected seniority list.

Approximately 1100 TWA pilots got slotted in at 1:8 (1 TWA pilot per 8 AA pilots) and approx. 1300 TWA pilots got stapled representing about 46% integrated, 54% stapled. The TWA Date of Hire cutoff between integrated vs stapled is 1989.

sailingfun
04-21-2012, 03:53 PM
I found this on a different website. I think we are all interested in what occurs, because we want our own negotiators to know what the others are asking for. Sounds like Parker is willing to do whatever it takes to get his merger, and I want the same deal at my airline. It is the cost of doing business. Some of our guys have used AA's declining health as an excuse not to go for more, or what we actually deserve. Now, since AA is unlikely to plummet to the bottom of the ocean, it is a different story, and a different MANDATE for our negotiating committee. NO EXCUSES.


You have got to be kidding me! You want this deal at Delta? Managment will sign it tomorrow. My goals are way more then a couple of percent more then our current rates and I think you should set your sights a lot higher also. 3 percent is not going to cut it. Not even close.

eaglefly
04-21-2012, 04:15 PM
I assume most of you guys know this, but the SLI legislation, known as the McCaskill-Bond statute, was signed into law in December 2007 and is codified at 49 U.S.C. § 42112.

If this does happen it will be seen as a merger and will most likely be slotted by equipment. Not to sound condescending, but it was just killing me to read some of these posts.

Well, how many SLI's have occured in the last 5 years.......or are still being worked out ?

Do the UAL/CAL, DAL/NWA, U/AWA or SWA/Air Tran SLI's for example, all mimick each other or do they have variables based on the specifics of the individual situation ?

"Fair and equitable" is a loose and subjective concept. Ask 20 pilots and you'd get 20 different answers. Get an opinion from 5 different arbitrators and you'd get 5 results not identical. We're post M-B with all thse situations and none are identical.

Personally, on AA/U we're getting worked up a bit prematurely here on this issue, if you ask me.

cactiboss
04-21-2012, 08:28 PM
This is far from done but it is fun to speculate. The west would like to see a relative position integration with protection on the widebody's for the Aa guys long enough to give most Aa an oppurtunity to fly the birds they brought. The east pilots want DOH and your 777 manuals ASAP

flybywire44
04-21-2012, 09:37 PM
You have got to be kidding me! You want this deal at Delta? Managment will sign it tomorrow. My goals are way more then a couple of percent more then our current rates and I think you should set your sights a lot higher also. 3 percent is not going to cut it. Not even close.

The increase of scope is a bigger problem than pay.

texaspilot76
04-21-2012, 11:08 PM
In my opinion, anyone furloughed, including those choosing not to accept recall, need to be stapled below all active pilots. Layoff is layoff. All active pilots need to be integrated on a relative seniority basis. If you chose not to accept recall, then that was a gamble that you took. if you were not on property at time of merger, then you should start out below all active pilots.

ripster36
04-22-2012, 12:13 AM
It's up to the creditors and the judge mainly. Boeing and Airbus are happy that the orders for 73's and 319s are still intact. And notice they keep the politicians happy by keeping HQ in DFW, saving up to 6000 jobs compared to the AMR plan, and keep the AA name.

Evidently they aren't keeping all the politicians happy, particularly the ones in DFW.... These guys must stand something to lose in all of this


Fort Worth Chamber, Dallas Regional Chamber Issue Joint Statement on American Airlines Takeover Bid - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fort-worth-chamber-dallas-regional-220800764.html)

FORT WORTH, Texas, April 20, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- The Fort Worth Chamber and Dallas Regional Chamber – the two largest Chambers in the region – held full board meetings Thursday and Friday mornings, and the subject of American Airlines was discussed.*
Following those meetings, Fort Worth Chamber President and CEO Bill Thornton and Dallas Regional Chamber President and CEO Amb. James C. Oberwetter wish to speak as a single voice on the subject:
We are greatly concerned by the potential impact that American's union employees' support of U.S. Airways' intentions could have on both the bankruptcy proceedings and the local economy, and are opposed to any mergers prior to American exiting bankruptcy.* While it may seem to some that this is an option, it's actually a damaging distraction that will disrupt American's thoughtful process already in place to preserve the most jobs in Dallas/Fort Worth, and the state of Texas, both now and once American has exited bankruptcy.
American Airlines' brand equity stands alone. Aviation is a legacy industry in our region, and American's headquarters in Fort Worth and presence at DFW Airport brings international recognition to North Texas. The company has provided jobs for generations of residents who live in communities all across the region.* In addition, American Airlines has benefited dozens of communities with charitable contributions.* A merger risks losing all that, and more.
The best outlook for all American employees is for the airline to remain independent and headquartered in North Texas. We urge the creditors and unions working with American to not be distracted by the efforts of other carriers to disrupt the proceedings.* Allow the bankruptcy process to run its course.* American's management has the exclusive right to submit a plan of reorganization until late September.* Completing this essential step is in the best interests of American's employees, creditors, Fort Worth, Dallas and all the communities served by American Airlines.*

Jack Bauer
04-22-2012, 12:15 AM
It depends by what you mean by "out of seniority."

IMO, they are not flying CA out of seniority. Here's why: TWA CA jobs are protected under the terms of Supplement CC, which guarantees a certain number of CA jobs in STL based on a ratio of DFW and ORD CA jobs. If DFW/ORD CA jobs go up, so do STL CA jobs. If they shrink, so does STL.

So, in essence, TWA pilots have their own seniority list in STL. A pilot hired at TWA in 1988 carries around a 7500 AA seniority number, and has the seniority to fly as CA but only based out of STL, the protected cell. Otherwise, a 7500 seniority at AA is approx. 2000 numbers away from holding an AA CA position anywhere else in the system.

That's why you'll hear some natives whining about them flying out of seniority. They aren't. They are simply upgrading based on their protected seniority list.

Approximately 1100 TWA pilots got slotted in at 1:8 (1 TWA pilot per 8 AA pilots) and approx. 1300 TWA pilots got stapled representing about 46% integrated, 54% stapled. The TWA Date of Hire cutoff between integrated vs stapled is 1989.

The TWA guys got railroaded plain and simple. Trying to rewrite history with lame justifications when AA is now in BK is in extremely bad form. The AA guys took advantage of the TWA guys. The same thing just happened to Airtran guys. Some in this industry always will given the chance to strongarm their brothers.:(

CVG767A
04-22-2012, 02:18 AM
This is far from done but it is fun to speculate. The west would like to see a relative position integration with protection on the widebody's for the Aa guys long enough to give most Aa an oppurtunity to fly the birds they brought. The east pilots want DOH and your 777 manuals ASAP

That's funny! I don't care who you are. Funny, and probably accurate.

Quint
04-22-2012, 02:47 AM
In my opinion, anyone furloughed, including those choosing not to accept recall, need to be stapled below all active pilots. Layoff is layoff. All active pilots need to be integrated on a relative seniority basis. If you chose not to accept recall, then that was a gamble that you took. if you were not on property at time of merger, then you should start out below all active pilots.

Well thankfully it doesn't and will never work that way. What your talking about would be changing the seniority of pilots within their own group. Not only is that wrong, it would be lawsuit city.

756driver
04-22-2012, 04:01 AM
Well thankfully it doesn't and will never work that way. What your talking about would be changing the seniority of pilots within their own group. Not only is that wrong, it would be lawsuit city.
So let's take a guy at Ual ( 747 captain) that took the voluntary furlough and staple him because his airline merged while he was out. Makes no sense.

756driver
04-22-2012, 04:47 AM
Good luck nobody's going to buy it. AA is no where close to the carrier it was. It not to late for Usair to shore up the funding to make an out right buy out for AA. TWA pilots supported Usair East. They hated to hear that " we bought you" argument to screw pilots out of seniority they even got a bill passed to protect this from happening again. Come to terms with the irony in this. AA is not much different then where TWA was look at what it been like for career exp compared to the guys at Cal and Swa. APA referred to the TWA pilots as kmart and AA was Saks . A disgrace to every airline pilot. I think USair will hammer APA on this.


need to hammer APA on this. Good luck to you both !

aa73
04-22-2012, 04:58 AM
The TWA guys got railroaded plain and simple. Trying to rewrite history with lame justifications when AA is now in BK is in extremely bad form. The AA guys took advantage of the TWA guys. The same thing just happened to Airtran guys. Some in this industry always will given the chance to strongarm their brothers.:(

It's obvious that you didn't bother reading and comprehending the point of my post.

I am NOT justifying APA's treatment of TWA. It was one sided and the process was nowhere near fair. Was the outcome fair? Depends on who you ask.

What I DO disagree with is that AA is nowhere near the same shape TWA was. Not by a long shot. And no this is not justification for their treatment. But please stick to the facts: You cannot compare TWA's BK in 2001 to AA's BK today. Not even close.

When you guys post out of emotion instead of facts, this is exactly what happens.

Schwanker
04-22-2012, 04:59 AM
In my opinion, anyone furloughed, including those choosing not to accept recall, need to be stapled below all active pilots. Layoff is layoff. All active pilots need to be integrated on a relative seniority basis. If you chose not to accept recall, then that was a gamble that you took. if you were not on property at time of merger, then you should start out below all active pilots.

I hear what you're saying, but not going to happen. A seniority list is a seniority list. When one bypasses recall, someone junior benefits by having the opportunity to return to the line if one so chooses.

Those who bypassed recall did so with certain protections in place. Those include seniority protections.

Not sure of the timeline, but there may be time limits associated with recall. If there is, and these limits are not extended as part of this deal, then not returning could potentially bite them.

TP76, if you're with AA, I do wish you and your entire group the best of luck through this BK. Horton seems like a giant Juliet Alpha and could use a Texas sized Cactus shoved up his back side.

aa73
04-22-2012, 05:01 AM
AA is not much different then where TWA was

Riiight... AA is basically a domestic airline today with just a few Carib and Europe routes, a few 767s bust mostly 757s and narrowbodies.

Don't ever let facts get in the way of emotions!

sailingfun
04-22-2012, 05:14 AM
Good luck nobody's going to buy it. AA is no where close to the carrier it was. It not to late for Usair to shore up the funding to make an out right buy out for AA. TWA pilots supported Usair East. They hated to hear that " we bought you" argument to screw pilots out of seniority they even got a bill passed to protect this from happening again. Come to terms with the irony in this. AA is not much different then where TWA was look at what it been like for career exp compared to the guys at Cal and Swa. APA referred to the TWA pilots as kmart and AA was Saks . A disgrace to every airline pilot. I think USair will hammer APA on this.


need to hammer APA on this. Good luck to you both !


I don't believe the bill that was passed on mergers would have had any effect on the TWA merger. TWA pilots accepted the AMR list as a prenuptial agreement and I believe even had member ratification on the list. At a minimum I know their MEC's voted on it. There is nothing in the new law to prevent a prenuptial in any future merger. If you agree and accept a list its done and the law does not apply.

Enterprise
04-22-2012, 05:16 AM
That's some nice spin, though.

Sorry, but nothing I posted was factually incorrect. TWA pilots with seniority numbers equivalent to junior FOs ARE flying as captains. There ARE protected captain positions for TWA pilots, and TWA pilots DO get super seniority bidding ahead of nAAtives in STL.

The only "spin" on this board is people trying to claim that getting to fly captain at 8000 seniority, GUARANTEED captain positions (something the nAAtives don't get) and super-seniority bidding is a "screw job".

APA designed the SLI so that nAAtives wouldn't pay the price for AMR management ultimately dismantling the newly acquired airline as they had done to most other acquired airlines in the past. Considering all that is left of the TWA empire is around 50 DC-9s and a STL base on the verge of closure, Supp CC was more than fair.

aa73
04-22-2012, 05:21 AM
I don't believe the bill that was passed on mergers would have had any effect on the TWA merger. TWA pilots accepted the AMR list as a prenuptial agreement and I believe even had member ratification on the list. At a minimum I know their MEC's voted on it. There is nothing in the new law to prevent a prenuptial in any future merger. If you agree and accept a list its done and the law does not apply.

Actually Sailing, not entirely true: APA/AMR crafted the agreement and forced it onto TWA as a condition of purchase, i.e. take it or leave it. The TWA MEC did NOT sign it - it was forced onto them.

B757200ER
04-22-2012, 09:07 AM
EVERY arbitrator figures in career expectations when deciding an integration.

First of all, you didn't own any seat. Neither did I. AMR owned it. So lose your holier than thou attitude about what you "owned" and what you didn't. You didn't own squat, and neither did I.

Second of all, I am exactly 2000 #s from CA upgrade. Who gives a crap? Estimated CA upgrade shouldn't figure into career expectations at all: it changes on a whim and you know it. You could have been a 25 year CA at TWA... what if your airline was downsizing and furloughing while AA was growing and hiring? What should be done then - give you a CA seat at AA and furlough a native? You see, that's career expectations for you. Here is the bottom FACTUAL line, ER: AA today bears no resemblance whatsoever to TWA in 2001. Way ahead on size, financials, routes, fleet expansion, retirements... I could go on and on.

Nope - not one comparison at all. TWA was practically a domestic airline at time of asset acquisition with a few Carib and Europe routes. South America? NONE. Asia? NONE. Far East? NONE. Widebodies? a few 762s and 763s. 777s? NONE. If AMR were that size today as well, I would gladly hand you this argument and say you are 100% right. But that ain't the case and you know it. AA/US is a complete merger of one large airline and one extremely large airline - in fact it is USAir who needs AA more than AA needs USAir.

The relative SLIs at DL/NW and UA/CO weren't crafted with 'career expectations', just fair & equitable integration of pilots flying like-sized equipment---and neutral, binding 3rd-party arbitration. US/HP was quite different, but there is no doubting the TWA/AA integration was completely one-sided, inequitable and void of any arbitrated decision (which APA fought long and hard to deny TWA pilots) and resulted in the wholesale destruction of most of TWA's 2400 pilots and their future careers. Only 495 were left at AA after furloughs, FERBs and attrition.

I didn't own any seat? So it's okay for you to replace me on TWA jets, flying TWA routes out of TWA hubs with TWA Captains? Remember your sentence above if US staples you and you get furloughed/displaced. You'll feel exactly the same, my friend.

As far as upgrading, it is very hard to predict the future. If AA down-sizes, comes out of Chapter 11 and either merges or is bought-out, your future upgrade potential will change as well. I take your "AA today bears no resemblance whatsoever to TWA in 2001. Way ahead on size, financials, routes, fleet expansion, retirements... " to mean that AA is better, AA pilots are more entitled and AA pilots deserve more than TWA, TWA pilots or TWA employees did in 2001. Do I have that right? It doesn't change one very important thing:

AA IS BANKRUPT.

Someone else will be deciding your collective futures---either the bankruptcy court, the judge or another airline or even another pilot union. You may think AA is in a better position than TWA was in '01, and BTW your retirements comment was incorrect (TWA had greater % of retirements), but AA is still not in control of its future.

One last retort: your description of TWA being a domestic airline?

"TWA was practically a domestic airline at time of asset acquisition with a few Carib and Europe routes. South America? NONE. Asia? NONE. Far East? NONE. Widebodies? a few 762s and 763s. 777s? NONE."

Do you realize you just described USAirways perfectly (substitute A330s for 763s)? Look at the questions above. One very important distinction, however; this time the 'domestic' airline will be buying AA, not the other way around. We'll see how any future integration goes after AA and their 'unions' so dispicably treated employees from most airlines they acquired in the past. Turnabout is fair play.

B757200ER
04-22-2012, 09:11 AM
TWA pilots accepted the AMR list as a prenuptial agreement and I believe even had member ratification on the list. At a minimum I know their MEC's voted on it. There is nothing in the new law to prevent a prenuptial in any future merger. If you agree and accept a list its done and the law does not apply.

Wrong. TWA pilots never accepted, approved or ratified the combined TWA/AA seniority list, with Supplement CC provisions. It was an APA/ALPA crafted integration that TWA ALPA MEC reps were almost completely against and refused to approve. APA (with ALPA national assistance) crafted Supp CC then shoved it down the throat of TWA's pilot group. There also was no 'prenup', whatever that is.

eaglefly
04-22-2012, 10:02 AM
Total waste of time arguing about this. Opposing views will never agree. It is what it is and 11 years later. If AA and U merge, it will be on it's own aspects.

aa73
04-22-2012, 10:27 AM
The relative SLIs at DL/NW and UA/CO weren't crafted with 'career expectations', just fair & equitable integration of pilots flying like-sized equipment---and neutral, binding 3rd-party arbitration.

The SLI in the DL/NW merger was absolutely figured in with career expectations: why do you think there are equipment fences? Why was there a 7 year fence around TWA widebody flying for OZ pilots? BECAUSE OF CAREER EXPECTATIONS. Wake up dude! It is ALWAYS figured in EVERY merger - binding arbitration or not. The UA/CO deal has not been arbitrated yet, but they will no doubt figure in CAREER EXPECTATIONS from both airlines when they arbitrate it.

US/HP was quite different, but there is no doubting the TWA/AA integration was completely one-sided, inequitable and void of any arbitrated decision (which APA fought long and hard to deny TWA pilots) and resulted in the wholesale destruction of most of TWA's 2400 pilots and their future careers. Only 495 were left at AA after furloughs, FERBs and attrition.

I am BLUE IN THE FACE from agreeing with you that APA's PROCESS was unfair! How many times do you want me to agree with that premise! And yet you continue to re-quote it.

I didn't own any seat? So it's okay for you to replace me on TWA jets, flying TWA routes out of TWA hubs with TWA Captains? Remember your sentence above if US staples you and you get furloughed/displaced. You'll feel exactly the same, my friend.

No, you didn't own any seat. I sure as heck don't own any seat at AA. The company owns the seat. And yes, it absolutely was OK to "replace" you (your words, not mine) in STL flying AA jets on AA routes out of an AA hub with AA Captains - because the company needed to fill those positions. Good luck trying to convince anyone that you "OWNED" that flying. You didn't "OWN" that flying any more that I "OWN" my JFK/767 F/O seat.

As far as upgrading, it is very hard to predict the future. If AA down-sizes, comes out of Chapter 11 and either merges or is bought-out, your future upgrade potential will change as well. I take your "AA today bears no resemblance whatsoever to TWA in 2001. Way ahead on size, financials, routes, fleet expansion, retirements... " to mean that AA is better, AA pilots are more entitled and AA pilots deserve more than TWA, TWA pilots or TWA employees did in 2001. Do I have that right?

No, you don't have that right. You are interpreting what I am saying in your own emotional way. I'm not trying to say I'm better or superior to a TWA pilot during that BK in 2001. I'm simply pointing out that our integration with USAir will probably bear no resemblance to the integration with TWA, simply because of the enormous dynamic difference between today's US/AA pilot groups and the AA/TWA pilot groups, financials, and yes- career expectations. AA bought TWA's assets at what amounted to a fire sale. USAir will be MERGING with a much bigger company that it needs. Two totally different deals.

It doesn't change one very important thing:

AA IS BANKRUPT.

Duh.

Someone else will be deciding your collective futures---either the bankruptcy court, the judge or another airline or even another pilot union. You may think AA is in a better position than TWA was in '01, and BTW your retirements comment was incorrect (TWA had greater % of retirements), but AA is still not in control of its future.

I agree with you on everything there except for the "other union" part. That won't happen: both unions will try and come to an agreement, and if they don't McCaskill/Bond legislation will apply.

One last retort: your description of TWA being a domestic airline?

"TWA was practically a domestic airline at time of asset acquisition with a few Carib and Europe routes. South America? NONE. Asia? NONE. Far East? NONE. Widebodies? a few 762s and 763s. 777s? NONE."

Do you realize you just described USAirways perfectly (substitute A330s for 763s)? Look at the questions above. One very important distinction, however; this time the 'domestic' airline will be buying AA, not the other way around. We'll see how any future integration goes after AA and their 'unions' so dispicably treated employees from most airlines they acquired in the past. Turnabout is fair play.

So what? I was describing TWA's size at time of acquisition simply because you have convinced yourself that AA and TWA are in the same boat just because AA is in BK. They're not. Due to US/AA's size, routes, financials, and career expectations, I fully expect an arbitrator to craft an integration similar to DL/NW and UA/CO. AA/TW was more along the lines of bigger airline buying assets of much smaller airline out of BK. It's not that hard to see. That will NOT be the case here unless AA shrinks itself down to the size of an airline similar to TWA and is broken up into assets for sale.

sailingfun
04-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Actually Sailing, not entirely true: APA/AMR crafted the agreement and forced it onto TWA as a condition of purchase, i.e. take it or leave it. The TWA MEC did NOT sign it - it was forced onto them.

The TWA MEC and pilots had to waive their scope provisions in their contract in order for the merger to proceed. They did exactly that. They could have stopped the process cold and TWA would have remained a independent airline. They did not have to except the APA list. You can argue it was a gun to the head ultimatum however that cuts both ways. If TWA was a viable airline then they should have refused to waive their scope provisions. If they were not a viable airline then they made the best choice to preserve jobs for their pilots.

eaglefly
04-22-2012, 12:28 PM
The TWA MEC and pilots had to waive their scope provisions in their contract in order for the merger to proceed. They did exactly that. They could have stopped the process cold and TWA would have remained a independent airline. They did not have to except the APA list. You can argue it was a gun to the head ultimatum however that cuts both ways. If TWA was a viable airline then they should have refused to waive their scope provisions. If they were not a viable airline then they made the best choice to preserve jobs for their pilots.

Legally, it was an "asset acquisition" with an OFFER of employment. I suppose they didn't have to offer employment, but they did. Based on TWA's situation (3 months operating cash), it was felt that the career expectations weren't there and thus as per Section 13 of the green book a straight staple was contractually required. They met and negotiated a better deal for TWA pilots and provided protections in STL and feathered in the top half of the pilots and stapled the remainder. I believe a large number of the staplee's were already on furlough (some on at least their second furlough).

Most agree doing this deal was stupid and TWA should have been left to its own resources to flourish or flounder. Although many there claim TWA was ready to rise and conquer the industry, most on the other side don't believe that and the demand for DOH and full consideration based on their hideous state is preposterous. Of course, the sides won't agree on this and that will remain in perpituity. It's decade old news.

aa73
04-22-2012, 02:37 PM
The TWA MEC and pilots had to waive their scope provisions in their contract in order for the merger to proceed. They did exactly that. They could have stopped the process cold and TWA would have remained a independent airline. They did not have to except the APA list. You can argue it was a gun to the head ultimatum however that cuts both ways. If TWA was a viable airline then they should have refused to waive their scope provisions. If they were not a viable airline then they made the best choice to preserve jobs for their pilots.

Well now, that's a valuable point... but TWA Pilots absolutely HATE talking about this point! That's because you are 100% correct, Sailing - they had no other options at the time. So, in essence, yes it was forced onto them, but they absolutely could have refused. But they didn't refuse, because refusing meant they would be on their own.

757200ER... your view on this? Could TWA have refused to waive their rights? What would have happened?

aa73
04-22-2012, 02:42 PM
Legally, it was an "asset acquisition" with an OFFER of employment. I suppose they didn't have to offer employment, but they did. Based on TWA's situation (3 months operating cash), it was felt that the career expectations weren't there and thus as per Section 13 of the green book a straight staple was contractually required. They met and negotiated a better deal for TWA pilots and provided protections in STL and feathered in the top half of the pilots and stapled the remainder.

This is EXACTLY what happened. The top 46% got feathered in at 1:8 and the remaining 54% got stapled.

I believe a large number of the staplee's were already on furlough (some on at least their second furlough).

No, this is inaccurate, eaglefly. TWA had no pilots on furlough at the time of acquisition.

Most agree doing this deal was stupid and TWA should have been left to its own resources to flourish or flounder. Although many there claim TWA was ready to rise and conquer the industry, most on the other side don't believe that and the demand for DOH and full consideration based on their hideous state is preposterous. Of course, the sides won't agree on this and that will remain in perpituity. It's decade old news.

Without a doubt. Crandall himself has acknowledged several times that he would have dumped TWA on 9/12/01. Unfortunately, Con Carty had major size envy.

aa73
04-22-2012, 04:40 PM
OK folks, I've come to a decision: This will be my last post on the subject of AA/TWA. I realize I'm coming on here trying to reason with folks whose minds will never change, and will most likely always be bitter. So be it. You may all have the last word regarding what happened over 11 years ago. I'll resume posting on any other subject except this one.

To 757200ER, I do appreciate the fact that we've had good and professional discussions before, and I will always reciprocate. Good day sir... ;)

73

B757200ER
04-22-2012, 08:45 PM
Why was there a 7 year fence around TWA widebody flying for OZ pilots? BECAUSE OF CAREER EXPECTATIONS. Wake up dude! It is ALWAYS figured in EVERY merger - binding arbitration or not.

757200ER... your view on this? Could TWA have refused to waive their rights to arbitration? What would have happened?

aa73---there was no '7 year fence around TWA wide-body flying for OZ pilots'; more inaccurate, false, misleading APA/PDP propaganda. There was immediate access to TWA 747/767/L1011 WB CA/FO seats for OZ pilots, in a percentage allowed (16% of JFK/LAX/STL WB seats). Notice AA/APA fenced TWA pilots off all 777/MD11/A300 seats, and forced our pilots from (3) domiciles into 1---STL---which APA and AA now want to close.

Your second point is interesting; yes, TWA's ALPA MEC (while being manipulated and subverted by ALPA national) could have declined to waive scope & rights to LPPs requiring neutral, binding 3rd party arbitration. AA's CEO Carty stated if that was done---AA would walk away from the deal. Many of our MEC's hard-liners wanted to refuse to give this up---but were outvoted. I would have refused---and taken my chances as a stand-alone airline. Let the chips fall where they may, knowing what I know now.

I ask you all: If US and USAPA stated they'd agree to buy AA and all assets, then merge the two seniority lists, but to proceed APA/APFA & TWU had to give up all LPPs and scope, what would you all do? Hang your hat on Horton's 1113 term sheet? Your leaders seem to think US & Parker is the better bet.

Eaglefly is incorrect stating "Based on TWA's situation (3 months operating cash), it was felt that the career expectations weren't there..." . That wasn't true, and (3) offers were on the table for our MEC Chairman to consider at that time. #1 was AMR's purchase of all of TWA's assets after TWA declared chapter 11; #2 was a large code-share and equity swap with AmericaWest, which was given a thumbs-up by most on Wall Street; #3 was a cash infusion by Boeing, management replaced by J Alix (turnaround specialists). There were other options, and TWA had more than '3 months of cash' left with which to operate.

AceOnTheRiver
04-22-2012, 09:10 PM
aa73---there was no '7 year fence around TWA wide-body flying for OZ pilots'; more inaccurate, false, misleading APA/PDP propaganda. There was immediate access to TWA 747/767/L1011 WB CA/FO seats for OZ pilots, in a percentage allowed (16% of JFK/LAX/STL WB seats). Notice AA/APA fenced TWA pilots off all 777/MD11/A300 seats, and forced our pilots from (3) domiciles into 1---STL---which APA and AA now want to close.

Your second point is interesting; yes, TWA's ALPA MEC (while being manipulated and subverted by ALPA national) could have declined to waive scope & rights to LPPs requiring neutral, binding 3rd party arbitration. AA's CEO Carty stated if that was done---AA would walk away from the deal. Many of our MEC's hard-liners wanted to refuse to give this up---but were outvoted. I would have refused---and taken my chances as a stand-alone airline. Let the chips fall where they may, knowing what I know now.

I ask you all: If US and USAPA stated they'd agree to buy AA and all assets, then merge the two seniority lists, but to proceed APA/APFA & TWU had to give up all LPPs and scope, what would you all do? Hang your hat on Horton's 1113 term sheet? Your leaders seem to think US & Parker is the better bet.

Eaglefly is incorrect stating "Based on TWA's situation (3 months operating cash), it was felt that the career expectations weren't there..." . That wasn't true, and (3) offers were on the table for our MEC Chairman to consider at that time. #1 was AMR's purchase of all of TWA's assets after TWA declared chapter 11; #2 was a large code-share and equity swap with AmericaWest, which was given a thumbs-up by most on Wall Street; #3 was a cash infusion by Boeing, management replaced by J Alix (turnaround specialists). There were other options, and TWA had more than '3 months of cash' left with which to operate.


Absolutely no way TWA would have survived without filing Chapter 11 to get rid of Carl's cheap ticket deal. TWA also wouldn't have survived after 9/11 and the recession. Where AMR made their mistake was not dropping TWA after 9/11.

cactusmike
04-22-2012, 09:20 PM
I love how some people still believe the Nicolau Award screwed the East. They got the top 517 slots when they had 197 wide body captains. I lost seniority on the Nic list and it was a lot more than 1 or even 5 percent, try 18. But you know what, it does not matter. It does not matter if you think it's fair or I think it's fair. What matters is that that award was the product of the process. It was negotiated, mediated and arbitrated. It is the result of the agreed to process and that is what should have been used for the past 5 years and that is why it will be the list used in the SLI. Parker does not want a legal battle to hold up the deal. APA does not, either, evidently because the negotiator notes clearly refer to some kind of ratioed list in accordance with legislation

We are waiting for a federal judge to rule on whether US Airways management would be liable for damages should they not use the Nicolau award. In addition, the West has an immediate DFR win against USAPA should they put forward any list other than the Nic. We lost on the timing in the last suit, we did not lose on the facts of the case. On the contrary, we won easily. And if you think a federal judge is going to come out and rule that binding arbitration is not really binding, throwing out 150 years of legal precedent, then you still believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa. Or you are USAPA.

cactusmike
04-22-2012, 09:35 PM
I believe the SLI will go the way of Delta/NWA and UCAL and our Nicolau Award. It will be ratioed by Group. AA will get most of the Group 1 and 2 slots. Group 3 and 4 will probably go on a ratio of active pilots from both airlines. Furloughees will be placed below any active pilot. December 2012 and beyond should get them back on property quite soon.

Think about this. With you guys going to the America West vacation policy that will require a bunch of more active pilots immediately. Bumping up your line average and using PBS will not lose as many pilot lines as you may think. There will be a net gain of pilots on that one item alone. Now, if your negotiators are smart, they will get the West's 5 +15 credit minimum per day. We get that per duty day and for any layover 24 hours or more. That is why our PHX/HNL trips pay 15+45 for a two and a half day trip and your LAX guys only get 12 hours or so. No 4 day trip pays less than 21 hours, 3 days at 15 +45, two days at 10+30. It's pretty sweet. On the 757 I would fly a 90 hour credit line and only fly 55 hours hard time.

eaglefly
04-23-2012, 12:42 AM
Eaglefly is incorrect stating "Based on TWA's situation (3 months operating cash), it was felt that the career expectations weren't there..." . That wasn't true, and (3) offers were on the table for our MEC Chairman to consider at that time. #1 was AMR's purchase of all of TWA's assets after TWA declared chapter 11; #2 was a large code-share and equity swap with AmericaWest, which was given a thumbs-up by most on Wall Street; #3 was a cash infusion by Boeing, management replaced by J Alix (turnaround specialists). There were other options, and TWA had more than '3 months of cash' left with which to operate.

Your MEC chairman had 3 offers on the table and he chose the AA deal, especially considering the seniority issue ?

That's not the fault of the APA. I stand behind my operating cash statements as TWA may or may not have had promises, but they didn't have the cash.

I'm going to join AA73 and let you argue your assertions undisputed as it's pointless now.

756driver
04-23-2012, 02:25 AM
You dont know that. TWA was not in its darkest days it like AA had a large Airbus/boeing order and after Sept 11 prob would have been able to get a goverment loan like many of the other US airlines. How can you justify a staple job for the TWA guys when AA still has more of there TWA airplanes than pilots. Usair be careful you are looking to merge with a airline with very parkable airplanes dispite ther aircraft orders, they not on the property now. I hope Usair guys slam the AA guys .

756driver
04-23-2012, 02:38 AM
Your MEC chairman had 3 offers on the table and he chose the AA deal, especially considering the seniority issue ?

That's not the fault of the APA. I stand behind my operating cash statements as TWA may or may not have had promises, but they didn't have the cash.

I'm going to join AA73 and let you argue your assertions undisputed as it's pointless now.
It s not pointless Alpa is being sued by TWA and up until recently AA is trying to screw the TWA guys out of STL by urging the company to close STL so AA can take their left seats. AA and APA should close STL throw out sup cc and sit down and hammer out a new integration. If not AA should stand trial for the atrocities that were committed before Usair. Karma I love it!

756driver
04-23-2012, 02:51 AM
I love how some people still believe the Nicolau Award screwed the East. They got the top 517 slots when they had 197 wide body captains. I lost seniority on the Nic list and it was a lot more than 1 or even 5 percent, try 18. But you know what, it does not matter. It does not matter if you think it's fair or I think it's fair. What matters is that that award was the product of the process. It was negotiated, mediated and arbitrated. It is the result of the agreed to process and that is what should have been used for the past 5 years and that is why it will be the list used in the SLI. Parker does not want a legal battle to hold up the deal. APA does not, either, evidently because the negotiator notes clearly refer to some kind of ratioed list in accordance with legislation

We are waiting for a federal judge to rule on whether US Airways management would be liable for damages should they not use the Nicolau award. In addition, the West has an immediate DFR win against USAPA should they put forward any list other than the Nic. We lost on the timing in the last suit, we did not lose on the facts of the case. On the contrary, we won easily. And if you think a federal judge is going to come out and rule that binding arbitration is not really binding, throwing out 150 years of legal precedent, then you still believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa. Or you are USAPA.
I would be more concerned about merging and integrating with an airline with 300 old gas guzzling airplanes. Think worst case, those airplanes are very park able. American would love to share some job losses with you. The same guys that would not acknowledge you in the terminal a few years ago. Especially the West guys. Be wise good luck.

formerdal
04-23-2012, 03:43 AM
I love how some people still believe the Nicolau Award screwed the East. They got the top 517 slots when they had 197 wide body captains. I lost seniority on the Nic list and it was a lot more than 1 or even 5 percent, try 18. But you know what, it does not matter. It does not matter if you think it's fair or I think it's fair. What matters is that that award was the product of the process. It was negotiated, mediated and arbitrated. It is the result of the agreed to process and that is what should have been used for the past 5 years and that is why it will be the list used in the SLI. Parker does not want a legal battle to hold up the deal. APA does not, either, evidently because the negotiator notes clearly refer to some kind of ratioed list in accordance with legislation

We are waiting for a federal judge to rule on whether US Airways management would be liable for damages should they not use the Nicolau award. In addition, the West has an immediate DFR win against USAPA should they put forward any list other than the Nic. We lost on the timing in the last suit, we did not lose on the facts of the case. On the contrary, we won easily. And if you think a federal judge is going to come out and rule that binding arbitration is not really binding, throwing out 150 years of legal precedent, then you still believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa. Or you are USAPA.

First, let me say i am not East or West. The NIC was the arbitrated list but it was never implemented. There is no way an arbitrator can use a list that was created over 5 years ago and never used. Too much has changed since then and if there is no JCBA between east and west and you guys just essentially get assimilated into AA's new contract the NIC was never ratified...

We all know you hate the east but this is an opportunity for both the east and west to put things behind them and move on with a better situation...Good luck.

buddies8
04-23-2012, 03:59 AM
Your MEC chairman had 3 offers on the table and he chose the AA deal, especially considering the seniority issue ?

That's not the fault of the APA. I stand behind my operating cash statements as TWA may or may not have had promises, but they didn't have the cash.

I'm going to join AA73 and let you argue your assertions undisputed as it's pointless now.

Lets not forget that ALPA had started a process for regaining representation of the AA pilots during this period. ALPA national was looking at dues, 2500 pilots from TWA or 10,000 pilots from AA. ALPA,s belief was screw TWA and gain support and traction on AA property for a vote for ALPA. ALPA did the same thing to Eagle, sold them for 16 years while trying to gain favor with AA pilots for representation. Dont anyone ever mention union representation from ALPA, they look out for ALPA first and last, pilots are collateral damage.
Just a point of view with the facts.

Enterprise
04-23-2012, 03:59 AM
I believe the SLI will go the way of Delta/NWA and UCAL and our Nicolau Award. It will be ratioed by Group. AA will get most of the Group 1 and 2 slots. Group 3 and 4 will probably go on a ratio of active pilots from both airlines. Furloughees will be placed below any active pilot. December 2012 and beyond should get them back on property quite soon.

Agreed. This is what we have been hearing as well.

Just curious - what is the general mood of the pilots on the West side? There is pretty much wide spread support among the AA pilots.

I think everyone just wants to move on with their lives.

formerdal
04-23-2012, 04:41 AM
I believe the SLI will go the way of Delta/NWA and UCAL and our Nicolau Award. It will be ratioed by Group. AA will get most of the Group 1 and 2 slots. Group 3 and 4 will probably go on a ratio of active pilots from both airlines. Furloughees will be placed below any active pilot. December 2012 and beyond should get them back on property quite soon.

Think about this. With you guys going to the America West vacation policy that will require a bunch of more active pilots immediately. Bumping up your line average and using PBS will not lose as many pilot lines as you may think. There will be a net gain of pilots on that one item alone. Now, if your negotiators are smart, they will get the West's 5 +15 credit minimum per day. We get that per duty day and for any layover 24 hours or more. That is why our PHX/HNL trips pay 15+45 for a two and a half day trip and your LAX guys only get 12 hours or so. No 4 day trip pays less than 21 hours, 3 days at 15 +45, two days at 10+30. It's pretty sweet. On the 757 I would fly a 90 hour credit line and only fly 55 hours hard time.

What UCAL sli are you referring to, to my knowledge there isn't one....

eaglefly
04-23-2012, 05:24 AM
It s not pointless Alpa is being sued by TWA and up until recently AA is trying to screw the TWA guys out of STL by urging the company to close STL so AA can take their left seats. AA and APA should close STL throw out sup cc and sit down and hammer out a new integration. If not AA should stand trial for the atrocities that were committed before Usair. Karma I love it!

APA isn't urging the closing of STL, AMR wants too. The APA has proposed 3 neutrals to decide CC issues and most believe current captains there will stay captains elsewhere.

The APA should stand trial for "atrocities" ?

Jesus.......LOL !!!

I assume you'd like this to be a death penalty case, yes ?

LOL again.

eaglefly
04-23-2012, 05:30 AM
Lets not forget that ALPA had started a process for regaining representation of the AA pilots during this period. ALPA national was looking at dues, 2500 pilots from TWA or 10,000 pilots from AA. ALPA,s belief was screw TWA and gain support and traction on AA property for a vote for ALPA. ALPA did the same thing to Eagle, sold them for 16 years while trying to gain favor with AA pilots for representation. Dont anyone ever mention union representation from ALPA, they look out for ALPA first and last, pilots are collateral damage.
Just a point of view with the facts.

Yep, that's why they won their suit against ALPA. Agreed on the worthlessness of ALPA. It's a virtual certainty they'll soon declare bankruptcy. Then, they'll really have no choice but to clean out their members. It's going to be a financial bloodbath for every ALPA pilot. When that happens, seeing as how pilots like to blame each other, I'll be curious to see if the anger and rage is directed at ALPA or the TWA pilots.

If you're an ALPA pilot, you'll be coughing up thousands over this.

NERD
04-23-2012, 05:48 AM
That won't happen. Alpa is at a fork in the road at both DAL and UAL just on contract restoration alone. If, and I do mean if a financial judgement is rendered that will cause membership to pony up 1 penny, Alpa will be voted off the island asap. The Twa guys may get some insurance money but my guess is a bankruptcy by Alpa and they get little or nothing other than vengeance.



Yep, that's why they won their suit against ALPA. Agreed on the worthlessness of ALPA. It's a virtual certainty they'll soon declare bankruptcy. Then, they'll really have no choice but to clean out their members. It's going to be a financial bloodbath for every ALPA pilot. When that happens, seeing as how pilots like to blame each other, I'll be curious to see if the anger and rage is directed at ALPA or the TWA pilots.

If you're an ALPA pilot, you'll be coughing up thousands over this.

Lcamp2100
04-23-2012, 06:10 AM
Probably will go to Bond/Mckaskill arbitrator, and he or she will use relative seniority - but it's his or her ruling and it's binding. Not sure how the arbitrator will deal with Nicholi or Supp CC agreements, but one thing is certain - no group will be happy with a merged seniority roster!

LittleBoyBlew
04-23-2012, 06:13 AM
Probably will go to Bond/Mckaskill arbitrator, and he or she will use relative seniority - but it's his or her ruling and it's binding. Not sure how the arbitrator will deal with Nicholi or Supp CC agreements, but one thing is certain - no group will be happy with a merged seniority roster!

Then we'll have a favorable SLI.:D

B757200ER
04-23-2012, 07:43 AM
Your MEC chairman had 3 offers on the table and he chose the AA deal, especially considering the seniority issue ?

That's not the fault of the APA. I stand behind my operating cash statements as TWA may or may not have had promises, but they didn't have the cash.

I'm going to join AA73 and let you argue your assertions undisputed as it's pointless now.

EF, he was outvoted, and besides, the TWA BOD (and CEO Bill Compton) had already decided AMR would be the winning bidder for TWA. And don't forget---ALPA was pressuring our MEC because they had already cut a secret deal with APA & AA to integrate.

One thing is certain: No pilots had any say or vote in this; and none of the pilots at US or AA will, either. The AMR BOD and US BOD will.

Buddies8 had it positively correct when he stated:

"Lets not forget that ALPA had started a process for regaining representation of the AA pilots during this period. ALPA national was looking at dues, 2500 pilots from TWA or 10,000 pilots from AA. ALPA,s belief was screw TWA and gain support and traction on AA property for a vote for ALPA. ALPA did the same thing to Eagle, sold them for 16 years while trying to gain favor with AA pilots for representation. Dont anyone ever mention union representation from ALPA, they look out for ALPA first and last, pilots are collateral damage.
Just a point of view with the facts. "

Can anyone say 'Conflict of interest'? TWA's pilots had their fate sealed not by APA & AA, but by their own 'union', prior to the integration!

aa73
04-23-2012, 07:48 AM
^^^^^^^ Your best, most accurate post to date! ^^^^^^^^

B757200ER
04-23-2012, 07:48 AM
APA isn't urging the closing of STL, AMR wants too. The APA has proposed 3 neutrals to decide CC issues and most believe current captains there will stay captains elsewhere.

The APA should stand trial for "atrocities" ?Jesus.......

APA most certainly IS urging AMR to close STL and throw out Supp CC. I read the new proposal and it is flawed unless a neutral 3rd-party arbitrator decides what to do with STL-based ex-TWA pilots. Don't you read C&R? Are there any NAAtives urging to keep STL open and allow protected CAs there to remain in their seats? LOL to you, too...

And for CactusMike...what if Nicolau was thrown out since it was never implimented and a new agreement between HP-AA-US was reached? Isn't that a possibility?

B757200ER
04-23-2012, 07:52 AM
Then we'll have a favorable SLI.:D

100% correct!:)

B757200ER
04-23-2012, 07:56 AM
^^^^^^^ Your best, most accurate post to date! ^^^^^^^^

And that's why you deserve your TWA DOH in this next integration

Thank you, and I humbly concur!:D:D;)

aa73
04-23-2012, 10:26 AM
Nice adding of the second line, you jokester. ;)

cactiboss
04-23-2012, 10:27 AM
First, let me say i am not East or West. The NIC was the arbitrated list but it was never implemented. There is no way an arbitrator can use a list that was created over 5 years ago and never used. Too much has changed since then and if there is no JCBA between east and west and you guys just essentially get assimilated into AA's new contract the NIC was never ratified...

We all know you hate the east but this is an opportunity for both the east and west to put things behind them and move on with a better situation...Good luck.
Well you don't have a clue about the situation. So you are saying that usapa actively avoiding the arbitration should be rewarded by a do over 5 years later, where the west has been shrunk and the east grown 7 years after we are a single company? Besides the moral implications, there are legal implications that you obviously don't understand. The Nic. does not and cannot be "ratified" neither east or west get's a vote. The Nic, is the accepted SLI at usairways at this time and was inherited by usapa as a successor union. Usapa want's to remove the EXISTING sli and replace it with one that favors the east pilot's. These are the fact's, the only question has only ever been if replacing an existing seniority list with one that favors the majority is illegal. A jury in phx said yes it was, the 9th circuit said that we had to wait until the list was actually replaced to sue.

eaglefly
04-23-2012, 11:43 AM
APA most certainly IS urging AMR to close STL and throw out Supp CC. I read the new proposal and it is flawed unless a neutral 3rd-party arbitrator decides what to do with STL-based ex-TWA pilots. Don't you read C&R? Are there any NAAtives urging to keep STL open and allow protected CAs there to remain in their seats? LOL to you, too...


Hysteria. I stand by my comments.

texaspilot76
04-23-2012, 12:04 PM
What I see happening is USAPA accepting the Nic award prior to merger, but delaying implementation by having a fence. Meanwhile, in the background, they will be devising a DOH list with APA, so when the merger occurs, the Nic is essentially meaningless. No failure to represent, since they accepted the Nic prior to merger.

cactiboss
04-23-2012, 12:52 PM
What I see happening is USAPA accepting the Nic award prior to merger, but delaying implementation by having a fence. Meanwhile, in the background, they will be devising a DOH list with APA, so when the merger occurs, the Nic is essentially meaningless. No failure to represent, since they accepted the Nic prior to merger.
OK, sounds like an even better case for the west to me.

crzipilot
04-23-2012, 02:41 PM
The west will never rest until they have their NIC. Will they be willing to pass up a 30% pay raise to continue their law suits in the courts? Or would they be able to look at a 3 way list and say OK, we'll take that with the new contract?

texaspilot76
04-23-2012, 03:18 PM
OK, sounds like an even better case for the west to me.

Let's pretend that there is a joint contract and the nic award is the seniority list and all disputes are settled. There is nothing stopping the union from negotiating a new list based on DOH with a merger partner. The two new companies will need a new list, and I'm sure they ate both going for DOH. See my point? This may really suck for the west and give the old farts what they've been wanting.

Quint
04-23-2012, 04:21 PM
OK, sounds like an even better case for the west to me.

Let's pretend that there is a joint contract and the nic award is the seniority list and all disputes are settled. There is nothing stopping the union from negotiating a new list based on DOH with a merger partner. The two new companies will need a new list, and I'm sure they ate both going for DOH. See my point? This may really suck for the west and give the old farts what they've been wanting.

But now you'd be re-arranging the seniority of pilots within their own list. IOW, Nic goes into effect / I'm senior to Joe / we merge with AA / I'm now junior to Joe?

Ain't gonna happen, lawsuit liability out the wazzoo.

wareagle83
04-23-2012, 07:06 PM
But now you'd be re-arranging the seniority of pilots within their own list. IOW, Nic goes into effect / I'm senior to Joe / we merge with AA / I'm now junior to Joe?

Ain't gonna happen, lawsuit liability out the wazzoo.
It already did happen....there were guys furloughed from U that went to work for AW. They were not required to give up their U seniority number(by the company or ALPO). Now comes the NIC....they are shown TWICE on the list!!!! They jumped themselves along with the rest of the guys they were hired with at U. Likewise , If NIC had used a DOH list they would have once again jumped themselves and their AW class mates. So yes it can and has happened. Back to lurking..out.

cactusmike
04-23-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't think Mr CRJ FO has much of a handle on how these things work.

WarEagle.... It gets even better. We have TWA/AA guys here in PHX. If there is another arbitration using whatever list comes up these guys have the chance to pick their spot. I see no issues. We have furloughed UCAL guys bypassing for years, we have AA guys bypassing and one or two just went back. I think it is great to have options, I wish I had one other than going overseas if this does not pan out

Quint
04-23-2012, 08:56 PM
It already did happen....there were guys furloughed from U that went to work for AW. They were not required to give up their U seniority number(by the company or ALPO). Now comes the NIC....they are shown TWICE on the list!!!! They jumped themselves along with the rest of the guys they were hired with at U. Likewise , If NIC had used a DOH list they would have once again jumped themselves and their AW class mates. So yes it can and has happened. Back to lurking..out.


No War, it didn't happen. We are talking about two different things. The situation you described has happened and probably will again, but that's not what Texaspilot described. The situation he described would change the seniority within your own list before any merger took place.

Think of it like this. You work at airline "A". Your seniority is based on when you were hired. Now at your airline, you've got a lot of old guys. They are not all senior, but age wise, they are old.

A merger is announced with airline "B", also chock full of older guys. The two unions get together and decide that the method of integration will be based on Date of Birth. You have now re-arranged the seniority of (in this case both groups) pre-merger.

In Texaspilot's example he suggested that the USAir pilots accept the Nic award, then merge with AA based on DOH. That you can't do because it would re-arrange the US pilot's seniority within their own list prior to the merger, see the difference?

wareagle83
04-24-2012, 06:07 AM
Quint, First off, all I was pointing out is that we recieved a list that had a handfull of people that are listed TWICE- on the same Freeking list!!!. That to me means that it IS a flawed list and should have been thrown out because these folks jumped themselves. Second , I AM one of those OLD FARTS!!! :) Mike, I agree, I hope this works out for us all.

eaglefly
04-24-2012, 01:15 PM
OK, sounds like an even better case for the west to me.

Boss, is there any time frame for forced resolution of the E/W SLI conflict outside of an AA merger scenario or could it continue in perpetuity ?

cactiboss
04-24-2012, 01:59 PM
Boss, is there any time frame for forced resolution of the E/W SLI conflict outside of an AA merger scenario or could it continue in perpetuity ?
There is a lot of misinformation about what is going on here. The short answer is yes, technically it can go on forever. Here are the facts most guys don't know: The transition agreement that brought us the Nic. was a contract between the west pilots, east pilots and the company(alpa not involved). The company is bound to the contract just like the east and west, and the TA and all it's provisions are active (that means nic. as the list) the company is liable if it helps the east commit a dfr by breaking the existing contract. The RLA forces the company to negotiate with usapa, but usapa is proposing a term that has already been found illegal, if the company agrees and usapa is convicted of dfr then the company is also liable and will have to pay the west damages and re-order the list back to the Nic. So usapa has already been convicted of dfr once for trying to change the list, the 9th circuit of appeals overturned that conviction on "ripeness" grounds, they said the new usapa list would have to be ratified for the west to sue. As you can see this is a chicken and the egg situation. To get to a dfr the company has to allow a doh list, by doing so there is a high probability the company will break the law, usapa is constitutionally mandated to accept only doh so there is a stalemate. The NMB recognized this fact and parked usapa indefinitely. The west and the company both agree that usapa inherited all contracts and agreements from alpa, usapa's position is that they inherited all contract's except for the Nic. They claim the Nic. no longer exists even though it was accepted and codified by the company in writing as the list to be used. Clear as mud?
The east pilot's got very lucky, in 2 ways, one if the list had been released after the contract it would have been over and two the west was half the size, so they were able to use the rla to kick alpa out and place their own union in charge while taking away all west representation. There were 2 ways out of this mess, a BK or a merger. A merger will remove the east majority and therefore their union, problem solved.

eaglefly
04-24-2012, 02:30 PM
There is a lot of misinformation about what is going on here. The short answer is yes, technically it can go on forever. Here are the facts most guys don't know: The transition agreement that brought us the Nic. was a contract between the west pilots, east pilots and the company(alpa not involved). The company is bound to the contract just like the east and west, and the TA and all it's provisions are active (that means nic. as the list) the company is liable if it helps the east commit a dfr by breaking the existing contract. The RLA forces the company to negotiate with usapa, but usapa is proposing a term that has already been found illegal, if the company agrees and usapa is convicted of dfr then the company is also liable and will have to pay the west damages and re-order the list back to the Nic. So usapa has already been convicted of dfr once for trying to change the list, the 9th circuit of appeals overturned that conviction on "ripeness" grounds, they said the new usapa list would have to be ratified for the west to sue. As you can see this is a chicken and the egg situation. To get to a dfr the company has to allow a doh list, by doing so there is a high probability the company will break the law, usapa is constitutionally mandated to accept only doh so there is a stalemate. The NMB recognized this fact and parked usapa indefinitely. The west and the company both agree that usapa inherited all contracts and agreements from alpa, usapa's position is that they inherited all contract's except for the Nic. They claim the Nic. no longer exists even though it was accepted and codified by the company in writing as the list to be used. Clear as mud?
The east pilot's got very lucky, in 2 ways, one if the list had been released after the contract it would have been over and two the west was half the size, so they were able to use the rla to kick alpa out and place their own union in charge while taking away all west representation. There were 2 ways out of this mess, a BK or a merger. A merger will remove the east majority and therefore their union, problem solved.

OK. I was just wondering if our merger occurs later (outside C11) as opposed to sooner, if your conflict would have a forced resolution by then. Doesn't sound like it. Unless it's AMR real intent to merge with Jet Blue and weaken or force U into BK and become the aggressor opposite of what is happening now, I think we'll merge, it's just a question of when.

cactiboss
04-24-2012, 05:36 PM
OK. I was just wondering if our merger occurs later (outside C11) as opposed to sooner, if your conflict would have a forced resolution by then. Doesn't sound like it. Unless it's AMR real intent to merge with Jet Blue and weaken or force U into BK and become the aggressor opposite of what is happening now, I think we'll merge, it's just a question of when.
Well the company is in court right now in phx asking the court if they will be liable to the west. If the court says yes or no nothing changes because usapa will still refuse anything but doh, as a matter of fact the east reps claim they will fight for doh "to the death" and the current officers vow to fight for doh all the way to the supreme court. So no I don't see a resolution until the east is no longer the majority.

Tomahawk58
04-24-2012, 06:18 PM
Well the company is in court right now in phx asking the court if they will be liable to the west. If the court says yes or no nothing changes because usapa will still refuse anything but doh, as a matter of fact the east reps claim they will fight for doh "to the death" and the current officers vow to fight for doh all the way to the supreme court. So no I don't see a resolution until the east is no longer the majority.

And the reason we'd want to voluntarily join this maelstrom is......?

Yep, we'll all be singing and swinging in the breeze in no time flat.

R57 relay
04-24-2012, 06:34 PM
And the reason we'd want to voluntarily join this maelstrom is......?

Yep, we'll all be singing and swinging in the breeze in no time flat.

I understand your trepidation. What cacti fails to "educate" you about is that the west intends to fight to the death for the Nic. Yeah, come join our one big happy family.

FORTL
04-24-2012, 06:42 PM
I understand your trepidation. What cacti fails to "educate" you about is that the west intends to fight to the death for the Nic. Yeah, come join our one big happy family.

Interesting concept. Having to "fight to the death" in what was a binding arbitration agreement.

qball
04-24-2012, 06:57 PM
Hopefully an innocent question.

Are all of the arguments pertaining to an AA and US contract/sli/merger (agreed to by US/AA unions) according to AA mgt a moot point? According to AA mgt...they are intent on trashing (I guess the politically correct term would be abrogating due to BK) the AA contracts and charting their future based on BK decisions (which I can only assume they feel will go in their favor?) and emerging as a single carrier. Not trying to stir the pot...just wondering.

R57 relay
04-24-2012, 06:59 PM
Interesting concept. Having to "fight to the death" in what was a binding arbitration agreement.

"When in the course of human events............"

crzipilot
04-24-2012, 06:59 PM
USAPA's problem, is they didn't put people on pay roll to troll the Internet boards and propagate their theories as gospel. On that end LOA and AOL have definitely out maneuvered USAPA....

See you must believe all pilots are high end RLA lawyers...

cactiboss
04-24-2012, 07:02 PM
I understand your trepidation. What cacti fails to "educate" you about is that the west intends to fight to the death for the Nic. Yeah, come join our one big happy family.

Right, because an existing relative posistion seniority list derived from a binding arbitration conducted by a neutral third party is exactly the same as using larger numbers to unilaterally staple another pilot group

R57 relay
04-24-2012, 07:12 PM
Right, because an existing relative posistion seniority list derived from a binding arbitration conducted by a neutral third party is exactly the same as using larger numbers to unilaterally staple another pilot group

I never said that. It was not relative position BTW.

Had we been smart we would have found a solution years ago.

eaglefly
04-24-2012, 07:17 PM
And the reason we'd want to voluntarily join this maelstrom is......?

Yep, we'll all be singing and swinging in the breeze in no time flat.

Well, your idol Tom is likely going dispatch you to U anyway, so you may as well get used to it.

When we exit chapter 11 working under an imposed work order instead of a contract, perhaps you could explain how we'll be better off ?

It appears the overwhelming majority of pilots think we'll be better off merging with Parker's offer, then empty handed post BK.

Tomahawk58
04-25-2012, 01:25 AM
Well, your idol Tom is likely going dispatch you to U anyway, so you may as well get used to it.

When we exit chapter 11 working under an imposed work order instead of a contract, perhaps you could explain how we'll be better off ?

It appears the overwhelming majority of pilots think we'll be better off merging with Parker's offer, then empty handed post BK.

So why not quit AA and apply at US? This would certainly open the door to those who really want to be AA. During US's hiring spree, where was the mass exodus of AA pilots heading to Phoenix if they really wanted to work under Doug's leadership?

So, this is really about a few dollars more without much regard for future consequences. I think US is still hiring....any takers?

aafurloughee
04-25-2012, 04:08 AM
Hawk your a smart enuf guy, the company has dug themselves a hole, and the pilots are fed up. They have gone from let,s work together, then line their pockets. To stall tactics. What six years of good faith bargaining, then a term sheet that is basically giving you far reg limits, with meager wages, which btw is being forced down your throats. Common bully tactics. Quite frankly people are fed up. But more importantly, they don,t trust them. We know this devil, have given him a chance only to put the stick in you, then break it off. As for Parker, it,s not the best, but at least they were willing to bargain reasonably and give decent wages , we shall see about scope. AA management messed up! Live by the sword, die by the sword. The only way management can save this one is by coming up with a better plan, apparently they haven,t been able to do that. We shall see.

GQpilot
04-25-2012, 09:26 AM
So why not quit AA and apply at US? This would certainly open the door to those who really want to be AA. During US's hiring spree, where was the mass exodus of AA pilots heading to Phoenix if they really wanted to work under Doug's leadership?

So, this is really about a few dollars more without much regard for future consequences. I think US is still hiring....any takers?

Ummmmm, are you kidding? If you leave AA for a new hire position at US ,you start over at the bottom of the list, not only seniority wise, but pay wise. Are you management? With a merger the AA pilots will most likely be placed toward the top of a combined list. As for furloughs, we have quite a few ex TWA/AA pilots here. Although one ex TWA guy I know bailed from AWA when the US merger was announced and went to fly for Boeing.

eaglefly
04-25-2012, 09:54 AM
Ummmmm, are you kidding? If you leave AA for a new hire position at US ,you start over at the bottom of the list, not only seniority wise, but pay wise.

No, he's not kidding. His solution to those pilots (the majority) that disagree with AMR's plan is to do just that. That's because.......

Are you management?

.......well, perhaps you're starting to get it. ;)


With a merger the AA pilots will most likely be placed toward the top of a combined list. As for furloughs, we have quite a few ex TWA/AA pilots here. Although one ex TWA guy I know bailed from AWA when the US merger was announced and went to fly for Boeing.

Don't agree with the placement statement you make, but many here believe the worst case scenario for ALL AA pilots is being part of the US Airways merger (which will almost certainly happen) under the control of this management vs. themselves. One only needs to look at the last decade and especially the last 5 months to see that. It would seem AMR simply wants to gut the employees, THEN do the merge with U under THEIR terms (once again, BAD for AA employees). A MAJOR payday for them, if they do. It's a given that the 1113c term sheet as is, has no chance of being ratified by the pilots and won't even be presented for vote. Thus, unless AMR decides to actually negotiate during the next 6 weeks or so, they will in all probability get their term sheet imposed.

At that point, I think the pilots have even less incentive to negotiate and it will be highly likely AMR will have to plan to somehow exit chapter 11 with at least no pilot CBA and very likely at least one of the other 3 labor groups. They don't want to do that, so at that point to pressure the pilots further and now with a blank check on leverage, I think AMR will then tighten the screws I guess until pilots start breaking. A nightmare scenario for everyone, for sure. Not sure how investors or creditors will feel about investing in a powderkeg like that, so we'll have to see. It would seem that at this point AMR simply doesn't care what employee atmosphere exits at the future AA and inexplicably believes they can make a premium product with enraged, disgruntled, decimated and disillusioned workers or instead perhaps to toss the wreckage to someone else who will have to try. Again, I don't understand the investment value of that nor why a creditor would let themelves be put in that position, but what do I know ?

Aside from that, most agree that AMR's business plan is exceptionally weak and presumptuous. I've yet to read a single analysts article that was positive in that reagrd, but perhaps I missed one. Most believe the only real chance for AA long-term IS a merger and ASAP with someone who has at least a fighting chance to reverse a decade long graveyard spiral.

eaglefly
04-25-2012, 10:06 AM
Hawk your a smart enuf guy, the company has dug themselves a hole, and the pilots are fed up. They have gone from let,s work together, then line their pockets. To stall tactics. What six years of good faith bargaining, then a term sheet that is basically giving you far reg limits, with meager wages, which btw is being forced down your throats. Common bully tactics. Quite frankly people are fed up. But more importantly, they don,t trust them. We know this devil, have given him a chance only to put the stick in you, then break it off. As for Parker, it,s not the best, but at least they were willing to bargain reasonably and give decent wages , we shall see about scope. AA management messed up! Live by the sword, die by the sword. The only way management can save this one is by coming up with a better plan, apparently they haven,t been able to do that. We shall see.

Tomahawk will instruct you to apply to US Airways if you don't like the future here..........or eaglefly says you could just wait for the merger. :rolleyes:

slinger
04-25-2012, 10:32 AM
Noone really knows...and to speculate is completely useless.

THIS. There are about 800 steps in a merger like this. The SLI is step 676. We are on step 8. Better that we not make wild statements that could divide AA and US pilots when unity is in our best interest.

Nice, Tom Hanks......

7576FO
04-25-2012, 05:29 PM
So why not quit AA and apply at US? This would certainly open the door to those who really want to be AA. During US's hiring spree, where was the mass exodus of AA pilots heading to Phoenix if they really wanted to work under Doug's leadership?

So, this is really about a few dollars more without much regard for future consequences. I think US is still hiring....any takers?


Dear Trama-managment personel or Aircon Employee,

You are so Management, and US Air is not hiring. You're so stupid!!!

7576FO

Tomahawk58 lies about being a pilot for American Airlines. He is not a pilot for American Airlines.

proletariatav8r
04-26-2012, 09:58 AM
To step back and summarize just some of the SLI issues that may have already been covered; US Air East is hiring while the West has 49 pilots on furlough and still stand as a separate list respectfully. AA has 1,685 on furlough, 650 have yet to be offered a recall and most of which are former TWA. All Eagle pilots hired prior to Oct 2011 have contractual flow up rights. US East’s most junior CA has a 1999 DOH and west has a 1998 DOH, while AA’s most junior CA has a 1992 DOH.


Then there’s the APA, (who used to be ALPA until the schism in 1963 when they broke off from ALPA), USAPA which doesn’t talk to US management and remains a group whose credibility is suspect by many, and the former loyal ALPA camp from AWA.


How on God’s green earth are all these groups, with valid, time fought positions, combine to produce a united pilot group working together in harmony ensuring an efficient operation? There will be more fences than a Chicago stockyard.

eaglefly
04-26-2012, 10:50 AM
To step back and summarize just some of the SLI issues that may have already been covered; US Air East is hiring while the West has 49 pilots on furlough and still stand as a separate list respectfully. AA has 1,685 on furlough, 650 have yet to be offered a recall and most of which are former TWA. All Eagle pilots hired prior to Oct 2011 have contractual flow up rights. US East’s most junior CA has a 1999 DOH and west has a 1998 DOH, while AA’s most junior CA has a 1992 DOH.


Then there’s the APA, (who used to be ALPA until the schism in 1963 when they broke off from ALPA), USAPA which doesn’t talk to US management and remains a group whose credibility is suspect by many, and the former loyal ALPA camp from AWA.


How on God’s green earth are all these groups, with valid, time fought positions, combine to produce a united pilot group working together in harmony ensuring an efficient operation? There will be more fences than a Chicago stockyard.


First one correction; There is no agreement that gives Eagle pilots hired prior to 10/11 "flow-up" rights to AA. 253 do and another 850 or so MIGHT and the bottom 2000 have nothing.

Yes, it sounds like a mess. Considering AA and U will almost certainly merge, this stockyard airline will have to somehow figure a way to compete in the future with hopelessly damaged service providers.

Whoever inherits that job will have to be a flawless magician and I don't think he will be. Of the 3 future "mega-carriers", my bet says as AA/U is the last to exit BK, it will be the first to re-enter it within 5 years.

proletariatav8r
04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
My own edit, since the edit function wasn't available;

How on God’s green earth will all these groups, with valid, time fought positions, combine to produce a united pilot group working together in harmony ensuring an efficient operation? There will be more fences than a Chicago stockyard.

Continue...

lolwut
04-26-2012, 11:08 AM
To step back and summarize just some of the SLI issues that may have already been covered; US Air East is hiring while the West has 49 pilots on furlough and still stand as a separate list respectfully. AA has 1,685 on furlough, 650 have yet to be offered a recall and most of which are former TWA. All Eagle pilots hired prior to Oct 2011 have contractual flow up rights. US East’s most junior CA has a 1999 DOH and west has a 1998 DOH, while AA’s most junior CA has a 1992 DOH.


Then there’s the APA, (who used to be ALPA until the schism in 1963 when they broke off from ALPA), USAPA which doesn’t talk to US management and remains a group whose credibility is suspect by many, and the former loyal ALPA camp from AWA.


How on God’s green earth are all these groups, with valid, time fought positions, combine to produce a united pilot group working together in harmony ensuring an efficient operation? There will be more fences than a Chicago stockyard.


So where do these Eagle Flow-Ups fit into the grand scheme of things? Do they already have seniority numbers?

If so, where will they (most likely) be in an SLI? Ahead of all the furloughs? Ahead of active pilots at US?

eaglefly
04-26-2012, 12:06 PM
So where do these Eagle Flow-Ups fit into the grand scheme of things? Do they already have seniority numbers?

If so, where will they (most likely) be in an SLI? Ahead of all the furloughs? Ahead of active pilots at US?

253 already have AA numbers and would need new-hire classes to move. The top hundred or so are mixed among the junior 3-400 and the rest at at the very bottom. The 846 would be offered new-hire positions if their grievance award survives the chapter 11 process. Many of the 253 might pass and stay at AE depending on age and financials.

As I said before, even AMR is open to merger and most believe this U marriage will happen. Most likely, Horton will be the One World messiah and the other bandits will have likely collected their booty and moved on, so it would be Parker presiding over the marriage of Jack the Ripper and Lizzy Bordon. The combination of the two will have the least motivated workforce in the history if the airline industry, but perhaps to some that isn't important. Stand alone or hooked up to U, either way I have difficulty seeing AA surviving this BK with any optimism.

I'd love to hear a believable explanation myself of how this will all work, but so far that hasn't materialized.

malibularry
04-26-2012, 02:45 PM
First post ever...

As a retired commercial pilot with 38 plus years in the cockpit I have a few observations concerning the AA/TWA thread regarding seniority integration and AA's plight now. I read all the preceding threads and had a big chuckle.

The day you decided to fly for a commercial carrier how did you chose "your" airline? Did you chose the one with the best routes, or the best equipment, or the best chance for advancement, or the best looking uniforms, or the best looking flight attendants (oops...dating myself!), or the one that was hiring at the time, or had the best balance sheet, or the one that accepted you?

The point is no matter how you ended up with "your" airline, you personally had virtually nothing to do with its success or failure, now or in the future. Management and Government play the major parts. Sure you can give up wages and benefits but you are only temporarily "fixing" management's decisions.

So, with the fact that we commercial pilots are all the same, interchangeable, numbers that do a great job of getting us all safely from A to B, why would one group feel so superior over another? If you are a pilot for a carrier that is doing well or at least doing better that another, does that make you, a better pilot or person, than the less fortunate one? It's the luck of the draw! It could happen to any of us.

And now it has...Never mind about who's the "biggest... has the most routes"...blah, blah, blah! What did any of us have to do with that?! The fact is the "biggest" back in 2001 is not so "big" anymore. And aren't those AA pilots blaming it all on management? How ironic is that?

My point is that which goes around comes around or Karma or whatever. Treat your peers as you would want to be treated, because you could be the next one with the short end of the stick, through no fault of your own.

By the way, I personally attended the bankruptcy hearings in Delaware in 2001 and I could go on for days about what really happened, but no matter what I said about that, there would be nothing but sniping and arguing about those facts.

I hope that all the AA pilots, as well as the flight attendants and ground personnel, get a fair and equitable outcome in their quest to survive in their chosen profession. Wouldn't that be something?

Fraternally yours,

Just along for the ride!

Sliceback
04-26-2012, 05:25 PM
Latest upgrades had a couple of 1998 DOH Captains at AA.

756driver
04-27-2012, 03:14 AM
Thanks for sharing. The AA/TWA merger set a bad presedent. APA was so busy stapling TWA they allowed AMR to give all TWA NYC/ San Juan flying to Jetblue. They allowed NY to Tele viv the best airline (profit) route today to be thrown out. If only AA could have based intergration on pilot to airplane ratio they would have worked toward something equitable. I have no dog in this fight but it amazes me how CAL Bought NY air, Peoples Express and Frontier and they made out pretty good little to no fighting today. Your weaker, bankrupt and we saved you. We need to kill this ME ME ME mentality. I hope this is a opportunity to fix that list at AA.

Enterprise
04-27-2012, 04:31 AM
APA was so busy stapling TWA they allowed AMR to give all TWA NYC/ San Juan flying to Jetblue. They allowed NY to Tele viv the best airline (profit) route today to be thrown out. If only AA could have based intergration on pilot to airplane ratio they would have worked toward something equitable.

So if APA had given TWA DOH AA wouldn't have shrunk?

Fascinating.

Here everyone else thought it was part of a failed business plan by Gerard Arpey.

R57 relay
04-27-2012, 04:38 AM
First post ever...



What a great first post! One of the best I've read on here.

B757200ER
04-27-2012, 09:12 PM
First post ever...

As a retired commercial pilot with 38 plus years in the cockpit I have a few observations concerning the AA/TWA thread regarding seniority integration and AA's plight now. I read all the preceding threads and had a big chuckle.


What Cap'n Larry is saying is this: Noone has a crystal ball.

Noone on this board (or any other MB) can say with any degree of certainty what their airline/job will look like in 1 year/5 years/10 years or at retirement. Anyone who says otherwise is a complete fool...or just a damn liar.

cactiboss
04-27-2012, 11:56 PM
What Cap'n Larry is saying is this: Noone has a crystal ball.

Noone on this board (or any other MB) can say with any degree of certainty what their airline/job will look like in 1 year/5 years/10 years or at retirement. Anyone who says otherwise is a complete fool...or just a damn liar.
Man to have this kind of insight is right down scary. Nostradamus has nothing on this.

Riddler
04-28-2012, 12:00 AM
This merger would be management's wet dream. You guys will be flying a bankruptcy contract for the next decade while East versus West versus TWA versus Eagle versus American ensues.

756driver
04-28-2012, 02:57 AM
I think there is some truth to that. As a AA pilot I would have questioned some things?? (Did you ever wonder) Why or where is all the (TWA) Middle East Flying going? TWA was the only US airline doing it for so long. Now CAL/DAL/US. Unions have forced companies to think long term before. I think the baby was thrown out with the bath water. The way the TWA guys were pushed out of JFK not even given a notice ,moving expenses, moving days or even time to find a crash pad in STL was criminal. I am sure it was a violation of APA and ALPA contracts. If I was an AA pilot I would have cried foul for the TWA guys at a minimum to protect the flying or delay its lost. Now Jet Blue has what AA had and needs to buy again The old (NY) TWA flying Terminal 3/4 or 5/6.

Tomahawk58
04-28-2012, 05:40 AM
Being aloft this week at the controls of a 757 reminds me why most of us are in this profession. Partly, it is the sense of independence and control we feel, that for a while, most of the troubles we encounter remain earthbound at least for a few hours or more.

The completion of a successful flight and a good landing gives us immediate gratification. We sometimes believe this immediacy extends to how our companies are or should be run, and most of us come up disappointed when it doesn't. We tend to see our careers on a upward linear progression. The vagaries of the marketplace we operate in leaves us befuddled and wondering how we came to the place we are.

Here we have the US guys and gals chomping at the bit to be at AA's or DAL wages so it's no wonder they've taken over the AA forum. My fellow AAer's in their desire to have anybody but the current AA leadership at the helm are willing to sell themselves to the unknown for a chance to be in "control" of their destiny all the while knowing that it's mostly a pipe dream. We have a CEO like Doug who longs to be ranked with the Titans of the airline industry so he'll go to any means and make any offer to massage his ego.

Life has a way of bringing us all back to earth. There are very few pipe dreams, if any in this world. It's about doing the hard work, and building something that will endure. Unfortunately, there are so few great leaders in this business and I include all of us as well. The amount of dissent on this forum especially among the US group, not to mention the friction between some of the AA and ex-TWA folks tells me we'll find ourselves as the most dysfunctional airline were we to merge with US. I'd love to be proven wrong! The fact that Doug showed none of the outpouring of blessing upon his own team tells me this is really about stroking his ego more than it is about bringing teams together.

I don't know the future with Tom Horton and his new team seeing as how he's only has the top job for 5 months.

But I am an AAer through and through, so this is my team through thick and thin.

I do wish everyone who post here the best for the remainder of your careers. If you're in this profession to chase the last marginal dollar, you'll never be satisfied no matter who's at the controls.

Vortexxx
04-28-2012, 06:29 AM
Tom,
First, how well do you know Mr.Parker? Very well to address him as "Doug" so often in your posts? I guess all Managers do know each other.

Lastly, I personally am sick of hearing about your man crash on Mr. Horton. Do a all a favor and dry up and blow away.

B757200ER
04-28-2012, 07:27 AM
Man to have this kind of insight is right down scary. Nostradamus has nothing on this.

Is that that new thing called sarcasm? Glad I entertain you...;)

eaglefly
04-28-2012, 08:10 AM
Being aloft this week at the controls of a 757 reminds me why most of us are in this profession. Partly, it is the sense of independence and control we feel, that for a while, most of the troubles we encounter remain earthbound at least for a few hours or more.

The completion of a successful flight and a good landing gives us immediate gratification. We sometimes believe this immediacy extends to how our companies are or should be run, and most of us come up disappointed when it doesn't. We tend to see our careers on a upward linear progression. The vagaries of the marketplace we operate in leaves us befuddled and wondering how we came to the place we are.

A heartwarming statement. Unfortunately, from my POV anyway, the remainder of this post is more indicative of somebody who spent the last week in Manhattan, some of it on the witness stand.

Here we have the US guys and gals chomping at the bit to be at AA's or DAL wages so it's no wonder they've taken over the AA forum. My fellow AAer's in their desire to have anybody but the current AA leadership at the helm are willing to sell themselves to the unknown for a chance to be in "control" of their destiny all the while knowing that it's mostly a pipe dream. We have a CEO like Doug who longs to be ranked with the Titans of the airline industry so he'll go to any means and make any offer to massage his ego.

AA's wages under Horton are likely to eventually be LESS than U's current wages, but that matters little. You keep focusing on pay rate only (something that management wants dopey little pilots to do), instead of the whole package. As it stands now, even WITH the APA/U agreement, U west has other aspects of their CBA that equalize the packages or even make the final combined package concessionary. The statements from both East and West reps, aren't endorsements and are filled with caution and concern.

Pipe dreams and Titans ?

Well, let's examine that a bit closer in light of the last decade and this last week in New York. For the past 5 years at least, the pilots have been simply "bricks in the backpack" according to AMR management and this week, Mr. Brundage seemed to all but admit that AMR's business strategy over the last 9 years was to simply "kick the can down the road" and hope that OUTSIDE forces turned in their favor.

Do I need to repeat the significance of that ?

It says to me, there WAS no real business plan and the "leadership" of AMR was hoping things OUTSIDE their contol would "help them out". That's not very comforting considering this is essentially the same management team that claims to have the right answer for AA's future. The other term used was that AA was simply "limping along" all these years under this same team who now claims to be AA's long-distance champ. An entity that limped along for 9 years (mostly in circles), now claiming to be the long-distance victor for AA seems more of a "pipe dream", then the assertions of another management who has actually DONE something OTHER then limp along or kick the can down the road, don't you think, Tom ?

Additionally, I don't see any "Titans" among the limping can kickers. An industry titan would seem to be one who performs and/or produces. In fact, one could say they GOT that limp from repeatedly kicking their employees for too long a period of time. I'm still deciding whether I want to be a can that is kicked or a brick to be shrugged off, but either way, I'm sore and dented enough as is. For thos who want more insight on the weeks events in New York, I'd recommend Holly Hegeman's "plane Banter" piece on 4/25 of her perceptions. Normally not a cozy friend of labor, it sounds as even she is beginning to see a clearer picture of what has and is happening at AA.


Life has a way of bringing us all back to earth. There are very few pipe dreams, if any in this world. It's about doing the hard work, and building something that will endure. Unfortunately, there are so few great leaders in this business and I include all of us as well. The amount of dissent on this forum especially among the US group, not to mention the friction between some of the AA and ex-TWA folks tells me we'll find ourselves as the most dysfunctional airline were we to merge with US. I'd love to be proven wrong! The fact that Doug showed none of the outpouring of blessing upon his own team tells me this is really about stroking his ego more than it is about bringing teams together.

All of us at AA want the best for AA, in that there is no question. But, considering the past and present, the continued game of the past played in perpituity has not only not moved AA forward, it's dragging it further down. I'd be willing to go with Horton and their supposed plan, but I literally have nothing to work with. The frayed rope dangled down to me is bad enough, but for them to grease it repeatedly over the last 5 months only ensures I look for any other life raft available, as unappealing as it is.

I don't know the future with Tom Horton and his new team seeing as how he's only has the top job for 5 months.

But I am an AAer through and through, so this is my team through thick and thin.

I do wish everyone who post here the best for the remainder of your careers. If you're in this profession to chase the last marginal dollar, you'll never be satisfied no matter who's at the controls.

I don't know what the future is either, but considering what I've seen in the last 5 months both from the lack of value and disregard expressed toward the employees and a smoky, murky business plan that has convinced no one inside or outside AA, I'm not optimistic. In fact, aside from all the above, you know what the cherry on the Christmas tree of pessimism is for me, Tom ?

It's the fact AMR has hired attorney Harvey Miller to assist during the restructuring. You know who he is, don't you Tom ?

For those that don't, he's FRANK LORENZO'S former attorney and we all know what Frank thought of and did to unions. IMO, that's what this is all about. It's not about any "business plan", it's not about getting "competitive" labor costs and it's not even about getting the cheapest labor costs in the industry. It's about once and for all BUSTING the unions at AA, at least to such a point they become irrelevent, that's what. I think they think this is their one and only opportunity and then the cherry for them will be to hand it over to someone else to "make it work" and make a nice buck in the process.

......and you seem perplexed that 55,000 of 70,000 AA employees are fleeing anywhere they can at this point ?

Come on Tom, I mean really. :rolleyes:

Vortexxx
04-28-2012, 08:11 AM
Tom,
First, how well do you know Mr.Parker? Very well to address him as "Doug" so often in your posts? I guess all Managers do know each other.

Lastly, I personally am sick of hearing about your man crush on Mr. Horton. Do a all a favor and dry up and blow away.

Now get back to your video game.

Tomahawk58
04-28-2012, 11:14 AM
Now get back to your video game.

Fair enough, so here's a challenge. If as it seem, most here believe this to be a marriage made in pilot haven, I challenge the entire forum to go one month without a single negative post about the pilots at AA, and US East and West!

How many are up for that? The combined AA/US(E/W)/EX-TWA pilot group will not engage in a single negative post about one another.

Game on.

Rudder1
04-28-2012, 11:24 AM
easy way to do this Tom:

DON"T LOG ON

Thank you

Tomahawk58
04-28-2012, 11:32 AM
easy way to do this Tom:

DON"T LOG ON

Thank you

I've said nothing negative about ANY pilot!

But this is a public space open for discourse and if you choose not to participate, so be it.

I for one am not going anyplace.

Cheers.

Sliceback
04-28-2012, 05:06 PM
Tomahawk - this is your team?? Since when does the changing the CEO change the team??? You've been here through Crandall, Carty, Arpey and now Horton. Those changes were acceptable, along with the mgt and flight department people that they installed, but a guy named Doug Parker isn't acceptable?

What if the AMR BOD fired Horton and hired Doug Parker? Would that, suddenly, be acceptable to have him lead your "team"?

My choices -

1. AA's survival along with the AA name
2. AA's survival, even with another name on the fuselage

Do I really care if Arpey, Horton, Parker, or Kirby is running the show? No, I'd just like to see effective management. I couldn't care less if they're short, tall, fat, skinny, or are named Tom or Doug.

Tomahawk58
04-28-2012, 05:35 PM
Tomahawk - this is your team?? Since when does the changing the CEO change the team??? You've been here through Crandall, Carty, Arpey and now Horton. Those changes were acceptable, along with the mgt and flight department people that they installed, but a guy named Doug Parker isn't acceptable?

What if the AMR BOD fired Horton and hired Doug Parker? Would that, suddenly, be acceptable to have him lead your "team"?

My choices -

1. AA's survival along with the AA name
2. AA's survival, even with another name on the fuselage

Do I really care if Arpey, Horton, Parker, or Kirby is running the show? No, I'd just like to see effective management. I couldn't care less if they're short, tall, fat, skinny, or are named Tom or Doug.

But character and strength does matter. Tough choices are never an easy sell, in fact it's quite difficult. Someone comes along and offers what appears to be the easy way out. He says trust me to make things work. I look at his past and current actions. So far, what I see in Doug doesn't inspire me based on the team his currently leads.

I'd certainly have a different view of Doug if his own house was sterling, but alas it isn't. I'll stick with the AA team until they're relieved of duty.

If the board chooses Doug and gives up on Tom, I'll give him and AA every once of loyalty and professionalism I possess. You see, I don't believe in the temporal, but in things that endure!

GQpilot
04-28-2012, 07:30 PM
But character and strength does matter. Tough choices are never an easy sell, in fact it's quite difficult. Someone comes along and offers what appears to be the easy way out. He says trust me to make things work. I look at his past and current actions. So far, what I see in Doug doesn't inspire me based on the team his currently leads.

I'd certainly have a different view of Doug if his own house was sterling, but alas it isn't. I'll stick with the AA team until they're relieved of duty.

If the board chooses Doug and gives up on Tom, I'll give him and AA every once of loyalty and professionalism I possess. You see, I don't believe in the temporal, but in things that endure!

You're joking right?

Parker was handed AWA on the verge of bankruptcy and possibly liquidation. Look what he's accomplished.

Your guy is part of the team that took the greatest airline on the face of the friggin' earth and put it where it is now, in bankruptcy.

You've got to be one of the management dopes, just wanting to hang on long enough to screw the employees, exit bankruptcy and build your golden parachute.

80ktsClamp
04-28-2012, 08:19 PM
But character and strength does matter. Tough choices are never an easy sell, in fact it's quite difficult. Someone comes along and offers what appears to be the easy way out. He says trust me to make things work. I look at his past and current actions. So far, what I see in Doug doesn't inspire me based on the team his currently leads.

I'd certainly have a different view of Doug if his own house was sterling, but alas it isn't. I'll stick with the AA team until they're relieved of duty.

If the board chooses Doug and gives up on Tom, I'll give him and AA every once of loyalty and professionalism I possess. You see, I don't believe in the temporal, but in things that endure!

The AA team is one of the worst management teams in many years- and A has had a lot of crappy ones. Your allegiance to them is quite odd.

RI830
04-28-2012, 09:15 PM
He says trust me to make things work!

Did he follow this with "Turn around.....it'll only pinch for just a minute"?

Tomahawk58
04-29-2012, 03:32 AM
You're joking right?

Parker was handed AWA on the verge of bankruptcy and possibly liquidation. Look what he's accomplished.

Your guy is part of the team that took the greatest airline on the face of the friggin' earth and put it where it is now, in bankruptcy.

You've got to be one of the management dopes, just wanting to hang on long enough to screw the employees, exit bankruptcy and build your golden parachute.

So, I'm sure that's the reason Doug met with all the US folks first prior to meeting with the APA, APFA and TWU. I'm sure that's the reason he wanted to make you all whole, pay and contract-wise, before he made any promises to the AA groups.

You're right, I don't know what the heck I was thinking. If you could just post a copy of the meeting notes that occurred with the US team that took place prior to the meeting with the AA team.

Yes, who really needs loyalty and character! There's no need to do any hard work here; all will work out according to plan.

Opus
04-29-2012, 03:46 AM
Tomahawk,
When you type do you honestly believe that anyone here accepts that you are actually a pilot for American? If you are, please pm any one of the many AA guys on here (I'm not one) and identify yourself and have them validate your credentials. You defend AA management as if they are a collective group of geniuses that have only been hampered by unions and forces they could not control. Please, most of the pilots on here are college educated. The reality is since Crandall AA management team has been dreadful! In the early '90s Crandall could have bought both America West and USAir with cash without making a dent on their books. Now, AA (a great airline) has been brought to the point where USAir is buying them. Yet, you defend this management team and encourage AA pilots to work for RJ wages/work rules (not to mention the untold number of furloughs.) If you truly are a pilot then your words reflect the image of the worst pilot of all, a Scab!

Tomahawk58
04-29-2012, 03:54 AM
Tomahawk,
When you type do you honestly believe that anyone here accepts that you are actually a pilot for American? If you are, please pm any one of the many AA guys on here (I'm not one) and identify yourself and have them validate your credentials. You defend AA management as if they are a collective group of geniuses that have only been hampered by unions and forces they could not control. Please, most of the pilots on here are college educated. The reality is since Crandall AA management team has been dreadful! In the early '90s Crandall could have bought both America West and USAir with cash without making a dent on their books. Now, AA (a great airline) has been brought to the point where USAir is buying them. Yet, you defend this management team and encourage AA pilots to work for RJ wages/work rules (not to mention the untold number of furloughs.) If you truly are a pilot then your words reflect the image of the worst pilot of all, a Scab!

Any many here defend Doug if he's the messiah. Sorry, I don't have to prove my credentials to anyone here. Believe what you choose to believe; that's the freedom all here have.

As to golden parachute, I have what every one of my fellow AA pilots have, an A and B fund plus a 401k. And for all the put downs of the AA leadership teams over the years, we certainly have faired well retirement-wise.

Mink
04-29-2012, 05:34 AM
I have what every one of my fellow AA pilots have, an A and B fund plus a 401k.

:eek::confused::rolleyes:

Every bit as solid as the furlough protection I was given 10 years ago.

Just before my furlough...

Tomahawk58
04-29-2012, 05:43 AM
:eek::confused::rolleyes:

Every bit as solid as the furlough protection I was given 10 years ago.

Just before my furlough...

So are you saying there's one pilot at AA that has retired without getting an A and B fund plus whatever they've saved in their 401k?

Have the DC and the the yet to be determined A-fund benn taken off the table since yesterday?

Mink
04-29-2012, 06:24 AM
So are you saying there's one pilot at AA that has retired without getting an A and B fund plus whatever they've saved in their 401k?

Have the DC and the the yet to be determined A-fund benn taken off the table since yesterday?

You know exactly what I'm saying: going forward, nothing is guaranteed and if you think you have a secure retirement coming from this joke of an airline, you're an imbecile.

Wishing you'd taken that lump sum back in Sep or Oct of 2011, are you?

lsl80
04-29-2012, 06:28 AM
T-hawk,
Horton is not a leader with strength and character, imo. He has frozen the A plan or maybe given the A plan to the taxpayers. He is ending the B plan. He is unable to touch the 401k or it might be stolen as well. Yes, he is allowing another plan to replace the A and B with between a 13-14% company contribution. I do approve of that!

Horton is in the process of terminating the contracts of all unions!!!!!! Have you read his proposal on sick?? Have you read is proposal on duty rigs? Have you read his proposal on 319 pay? Have you read his proposal on SCOPE? Have you read and agree with any of the 1113 proposals???

Tomahawk58
04-29-2012, 06:30 AM
You know exactly what I'm saying: going forward, nothing is guaranteed and if you think you have a secure retirement coming from this joke of an airline, you're an imbecile.

Wishing you'd taken that lump sum back in Sep or Oct of 2011, are you?

Mink,

Thanks, but nothing could be further from the truth. I do love both my company and the flying and plan to be here till I'm 65.

While I'll fight to the very last to keep AA independent, once a final determination is made, no matter who's at the helm, I'll fight and work just as hard for the future success of our company.

Mink
04-29-2012, 06:41 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot. You're the one guy in this industry that is "100% safe".

Tomahawk58
04-29-2012, 06:42 AM
T-hawk,
Horton is not a leader with strength and character, imo. He has frozen the A plan or maybe given the A plan to the taxpayers. He is ending the B plan. He is unable to touch the 401k or it might be stolen as well. Yes, he is allowing another plan to replace the A and B with between a 13-14% company contribution. I do approve of that!

Horton is in the process of terminating the contracts of all unions!!!!!! Have you read his proposal on sick?? Have you read is proposal on duty rigs? Have you read his proposal on 319 pay? Have you read his proposal on SCOPE? Have you read and agree with any of the 1113 proposals???

Isl80,

I have read the term sheets.

Let's review the differences between AA and US:

1. A-fund AA - proposed freeze, US - none
2. B-fund AA - convert to 13.5 percent, US - 10 percent
3. 401k same both carriers
4. Sick AA - managed plan, US - unknown but the US guys can fill us in.
5. Scope AA -1/2 the number of m/l jets, US - 1/2 the number of m/l jets(in Parker's proposal to APA)
5. Pay AA - the guys do the bottom take a slight hit, US - so far only a proposal to APA and none to US pilots yet.

Clearly, I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. Let's see what Parker and Kisrby are willing to put in "final contract language" for the combined operation on all of these areas, then we can argue on the merits. Right now they are promises written in sand.

Tomahawk58
04-29-2012, 06:43 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot. You're the one guy in this industry that is "100% safe".

What I said was "I'm 100 percent safe in a merged operation seniority wise". But of course you choose to take my statement out of context. So be it.

GQpilot
04-29-2012, 03:56 PM
So, I'm sure that's the reason Doug met with all the US folks first prior to meeting with the APA, APFA and TWU. I'm sure that's the reason he wanted to make you all whole, pay and contract-wise, before he made any promises to the AA groups.

You're right, I don't know what the heck I was thinking. If you could just post a copy of the meeting notes that occurred with the US team that took place prior to the meeting with the AA team.

Yes, who really needs loyalty and character! There's no need to do any hard work here; all will work out according to plan.

Why on the earth would Parker meet with our unions prior? Because the majority rules, our unions are run by the east/ex-US Air. To fill you in a little, our previous pilot-union head used to sit in the corner and glare at our management team when at company functions. He was about as mature as a 4 year old who hadn't taken a nap. Just in the last couple weeks he was finally replaced.

When Parker simply said he would like to see a fair seniority integration between the flight attendants their union responded by sending the sheep out to protest at headquarters and told him to mind his own business.

Mechanics? On the east they used to Park aircraft. Numerous times an aircraft would be pulling in and a shift change would occur. Mechanic would lay down the wands with a/c just feet from the gate and walk away. Then aircraft would sit there unparked for 30 minutes loaded with passengers.

Ground? After the merger Parker wanted a publicity shot in, I believe Philly, of him throwing some bags. There was no security issue. Union rampers said that was a union job and he better put them down. They proceeded to curse out their new CEO.

You think your unions are enjoying dealing with a professional, I'm willing to bet the feeling from Parker is mutual.

As a footnote, I'm pro-union, just have little use for US Airways' current unions that are anti-business.

AceOnTheRiver
04-29-2012, 06:54 PM
Why on the earth would Parker meet with our unions prior? Because the majority rules, our unions are run by the east/ex-US Air. To fill you in a little, our previous pilot-union head used to sit in the corner and glare at our management team when at company functions. He was about as mature as a 4 year old who hadn't taken a nap. Just in the last couple weeks he was finally replaced.

When Parker simply said he would like to see a fair seniority integration between the flight attendants their union responded by sending the sheep out to protest at headquarters and told him to mind his own business.

Mechanics? On the east they used to Park aircraft. Numerous times an aircraft would be pulling in and a shift change would occur. Mechanic would lay down the wands with a/c just feet from the gate and walk away. Then aircraft would sit there unparked for 30 minutes loaded with passengers.

Ground? After the merger Parker wanted a publicity shot in, I believe Philly, of him throwing some bags. There was no security issue. Union rampers said that was a union job and he better put them down. They proceeded to curse out their new CEO.

You think your unions are enjoying dealing with a professional, I'm willing to bet the feeling from Parker is mutual.

As a footnote, I'm pro-union, just have little use for US Airways' current unions that are anti-business.


Mechanic to park the aircraft?? You mean y'all don't use auto parking?

Tomahawk58
04-30-2012, 02:56 AM
Why on the earth would Parker meet with our unions prior? Because the majority rules, our unions are run by the east/ex-US Air. To fill you in a little, our previous pilot-union head used to sit in the corner and glare at our management team when at company functions. He was about as mature as a 4 year old who hadn't taken a nap. Just in the last couple weeks he was finally replaced.

When Parker simply said he would like to see a fair seniority integration between the flight attendants their union responded by sending the sheep out to protest at headquarters and told him to mind his own business.

Mechanics? On the east they used to Park aircraft. Numerous times an aircraft would be pulling in and a shift change would occur. Mechanic would lay down the wands with a/c just feet from the gate and walk away. Then aircraft would sit there unparked for 30 minutes loaded with passengers.

Ground? After the merger Parker wanted a publicity shot in, I believe Philly, of him throwing some bags. There was no security issue. Union rampers said that was a union job and he better put them down. They proceeded to curse out their new CEO.

You think your unions are enjoying dealing with a professional, I'm willing to bet the feeling from Parker is mutual.

As a footnote, I'm pro-union, just have little use for US Airways' current unions that are anti-business.

And folks to me to task for not wanting AA to be any part of this maelstrom.

But I guess the thinking is that the APA along with the US-West folks will just show those guys in US-East how things are really done. I can hardly wait to get the show on the road.

R57 relay
04-30-2012, 05:48 AM
Why on the earth would Parker meet with our unions prior? Because the majority rules, our unions are run by the east/ex-US Air. To fill you in a little, our previous pilot-union head used to sit in the corner and glare at our management team when at company functions. He was about as mature as a 4 year old who hadn't taken a nap. Just in the last couple weeks he was finally replaced.

When Parker simply said he would like to see a fair seniority integration between the flight attendants their union responded by sending the sheep out to protest at headquarters and told him to mind his own business.

Mechanics? On the east they used to Park aircraft. Numerous times an aircraft would be pulling in and a shift change would occur. Mechanic would lay down the wands with a/c just feet from the gate and walk away. Then aircraft would sit there unparked for 30 minutes loaded with passengers.

Ground? After the merger Parker wanted a publicity shot in, I believe Philly, of him throwing some bags. There was no security issue. Union rampers said that was a union job and he better put them down. They proceeded to curse out their new CEO.

You think your unions are enjoying dealing with a professional, I'm willing to bet the feeling from Parker is mutual.

As a footnote, I'm pro-union, just have little use for US Airways' current unions that are anti-business.

Give it a break. Mechanics haven't parked A/C for almost 10 years here. Two trips to bankruptcy court have effectively neutered all the unions on the property.

GQpilot
04-30-2012, 07:02 AM
And folks to me to task for not wanting AA to be any part of this maelstrom.

But I guess the thinking is that the APA along with the US-West folks will just show those guys in US-East how things are really done. I can hardly wait to get the show on the road.

The west only numbers about 1500. The American unions will have the majority regardless of the west. It's a great deal for the American unions, the US unions are so immature and clueless they're not a threat.

You've already said your seniority can't be effected and that you have knowledge that management didn't meet with USAPA. So either you're lying or are management. Gotcha.

GQpilot
04-30-2012, 07:04 AM
Give it a break. Mechanics haven't parked A/C for almost 10 years here. Two trips to bankruptcy court have effectively neutered all the unions on the property.

Yes and the merger was 6 years ago.

The mentality is still there and in some cases it's the same people running the show.

cactusmike
04-30-2012, 07:44 AM
Parker is going to meet with USAPA tomorrow. It will be interesting conversation, don'tcha think?

R57 relay
04-30-2012, 08:04 AM
Parker is going to meet with USAPA tomorrow. It will be interesting conversation, don'tcha think?

I don't know. If he just talks in circles like he does on crew news there won't be much there.

cactusmike
04-30-2012, 08:07 AM
I don't know. If he just talks in circles like he does on crew news there won't be much there.

Yes, indeed. That is always a possibility and one that I would not be surprised to see happen. The man can dance, can't he?

R57 relay
04-30-2012, 08:14 AM
Yes, indeed. That is always a possibility and one that I would not be surprised to see happen. The man can dance, can't he?

That he can. I think it was just a few crew news sessions ago that he was still claiming that he didn't know what his lawyer was saying about the DJ. Sure looks like he is just going to walk around us, if he can.

Tomahawk58
04-30-2012, 08:23 AM
The west only numbers about 1500. The American unions will have the majority regardless of the west. It's a great deal for the American unions, the US unions are so immature and clueless they're not a threat.

You've already said your seniority can't be effected and that you have knowledge that management didn't meet with USAPA. So either you're lying or are management. Gotcha.

There you go believing I'm in this for myself.

I'm an AAer through and through, and think it would be courtroom drama for years to come for all the AA and US folks if this tie-up were to take place. By your own admission, you all are at odds with the East pilots. Now you're suggesting that together with the APA, the East guys would be marginalized or neutered. Given that you're willing to throw your own folks under the bus, what's to say this won't the the collective strategy for the foreseeable future?

Remind me again why this is a good deal for the AA folks?

cactusmike
05-01-2012, 12:11 PM
Remind me again why this is a good deal for the AA folks?


Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code.

Tomahawk58
05-01-2012, 03:30 PM
Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code.

So what exactly happen during your 2 trips through the BK process?

R57 relay
05-01-2012, 05:51 PM
So what exactly happen during your 2 trips through the BK process?

Not to speak for CM, but I'm pretty sure he is a west guy, so he went through one BK max, and AWA was pretty much the lowest paid then, so I doubt they were lowered too much. Those of us at the original US took a total gutting of our contract because we(collectively) were so scared of the 1113 process.

cactusmike
05-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Thanks, Relay.

Yep, I'm a Westie. We had our pay lowered by 10% and frozen for 4 years, no step increases. That led to ALPA finally coming on property in 92 or 93. We did have a pilot on the creditors committee to monitor the CH 11 process. To its credit, the company did not gut all of our benefits and work rules. It was not as draconian as what the APA is facing. The east definitely got hammered in CH11. That is why I never understood why they have dragged this out. I do think that doing this merger will cure a lot of the ills suffered over the last 6 years for us and the last 10 for the East.

FliFast
05-01-2012, 08:38 PM
Yes. AA pilots don't want any division, especially now. Since the shoe is on the other foot and they are in bankruptcy, they surely wouldn't want the same screw job that they gave the TWA pilots a decade ago. What was one of the reasons they cited? Oh yes, that the TDub guys should accept the staple job because their company is in bankruptcy and they should feel lucky just to have a job. I guess they learned from their own mistake.

Well, just remember, we TWA pilots in BK were just KMART pilots and we got what we deserved. When the AA/APA merger committee meets with the USAir East/West counterparts they will tell them they are Walmart and Dollar Store pilots and they should be stapled after the TWA pilots. Hey when you're an elite Saks 5th Ave pilot, no one comes before you. WHAT GOES AROUND - COMES AROUND. Glad to see it is coming around.

Oh and to ask the APA to protect what little seniority crumbs we got would like asking a fat person for a bite of their twinkie.

9th year on furlough from AA

LittleBoyBlew
05-02-2012, 08:06 AM
Well, just remember, we TWA pilots in BK were just KMART pilots and we got what we deserved. When the AA/APA merger committee meets with the USAir East/West counterparts they will tell them they are Walmart and Dollar Store pilots and they should be stapled after the TWA pilots. Hey when you're an elite Saks 5th Ave pilot, no one comes before you. WHAT GOES AROUND - COMES AROUND. Glad to see it is coming around.

Oh and to ask the APA to protect what little seniority crumbs we got would like asking a fat person for a bite of their twinkie.

9th year on furlough from AA
Sorry to hear that Fli. I've heard rumors of possibly bringing AA/TWA furloughs back on to the US side during the 7 year fence. Considering that US has 1865 pilots retiring during the 7 year span, I would hope to see you guys back on the saddle. Keep the faith brother, that's all we've got.

7576FO
05-02-2012, 06:20 PM
Well, just remember, we TWA pilots in BK were just KMART pilots and we got what we deserved. When the AA/APA merger committee meets with the USAir East/West counterparts they will tell them they are Walmart and Dollar Store pilots and they should be stapled after the TWA pilots. Hey when you're an elite Saks 5th Ave pilot, no one comes before you. WHAT GOES AROUND - COMES AROUND. Glad to see it is coming around.

Oh and to ask the APA to protect what little seniority crumbs we got would like asking a fat person for a bite of their twinkie.

9th year on furlough from AA


You bypassed recall. 9 years is your choice, you could have recalled 3 years ago I think.
1 more time, 900 TWA CA's came in senior to me at AA. All kept their CA seats until retired or are still in them. There are still many TWA CA's junior to me. I'm an FO at AA. Never furloughed.

Of the 2,400 TWA pilots Over 900 have/had seniority at AA from 2,000 to 8,000 and were never furloughed.

All TWA pilots were ratio'd in at 8:1 until they ran out of pilots. The rest would then be called a staple.

Good luck with your continued message of hate.

7576FO

BamaSkier
05-02-2012, 07:22 PM
American began furloughs around January 2002 and did not begin recalls until January 2011. The very first TWA guys to be offered recall were on furlough nine years until they got the call. There was NO agreement over seniority between TWA and American. Supplement CC was the SHAAAAT sandwich that TWA pilot had forced down their throats. Why any furloughed pilot from American would want to return to such a dysfunctional and rotting from within company is the sixty million dollar question. The old golden rule states treat others as you would have others treat you. What goes around indeed comes back around to haunt you.

eaglefly
05-02-2012, 07:39 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzz..............

B757200ER
05-02-2012, 08:46 PM
1 more time, 900 TWA CA's came in senior to me at AA. All kept their CA seats until retired or are still in them. There are still many TWA CA's junior to me. I'm an FO at AA. Never furloughed.

Of the 2,400 TWA pilots Over 900 have/had seniority at AA from 2,000 to 8,000 and were never furloughed.

All TWA pilots were ratio'd in at 8:1 until they ran out of pilots. The rest would then be called a staple.

Just to make some corrections to your post---and I know we've been over this, and I know your position on the seniority list: 900 TWA CAs were ratioed in at 8.14-to-1 above you, but 400 of the 900 took the FERB (early retirement w/full yr's pay & benefits), leaving only 500 TWA CAs above you----but since they were all forced/fenced into STL, this really had no effect on you. And second, your statement "All TWA pilots were ratio'd in at 8:1 until they ran out of pilots" is sort of mis-leading; 1100 TWA pilots (out of 2400) were ratioed, then 1300 (including me) were stapled to the bottom of the list.

And for BamaSkier, your post claiming "American began furloughs around January 2002 and did not begin recalls until January 2011" isn't completely accurate. AA began furloughs on October 1st,2001...right after 9-11 occured, and did offer recalls in '07, but to a small number of pilots; some of these pilots were furloughed AGAIN in early '09 (TWA pilots only), but recalled by 2010. Then recalls continued throughtout 2011 until AA declared Chapter 11.

cactusmike
05-04-2012, 12:12 PM
Didn't the ratios start at the bottom of the AA list and not the top?

The TWA deal sucked but I do not know how the AA list could be reordered now unless there was a lawsuit. Provisions would have to be made for the STL base where the TWA guys get to have some seniority, how that base would fare after a merger is very unknown.

B757200ER
05-04-2012, 09:23 PM
Yes. When I said "above you", I was referring to the poster above, who was a senior F/O, and had TWA CAs ratioed in above him. The ratio you refer to correctly, was started at AA seniority #2500, then 8.14 AA-to-1 TW to the staple point/bottom.

As far as STL, who knows? But I guarantee the TWA pilots fenced into there involuntarily aren't going to be flushed into the system with no protections, after what APA & Supp CC assured them in STL. That would be grounds for a mighty DFR suit.

flyfast15
05-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Out of the AA furloughs how many bypass the recall and how many will eventually come back. Ten years is a long time to be on furlough, I'm sure most of them have descent jobs by now.

eaglefly
05-05-2012, 03:26 PM
Out of the AA furloughs how many bypass the recall and how many will eventually come back. Ten years is a long time to be on furlough, I'm sure most of them have descent jobs by now.

Considering the almost certainty of the future merger and the wildcard of the SLI, I'd expect anyone on furlough with even a marginally decent gig wouldn't shoot craps coming back at the bottom of the combined list. If I had 5 years at Jet Blue, Air Tran or something similar, I'd stick it out there.

IF we merge with the U agreement and furlough protection, it might be awhile before and movement occurs. If Horton controls the merger, I agree with the APA that 1-2000 AA pilots could ultimately get furloughed as there would be no protections at the whim of someone who has already brought in Harvey Miller to call the shots as it is and that should tell every AA pilot (flying and furloughed) EVERYTHING they need to know about how they'd be treated in an AMR controlled merger that would be set up to benefit AMR management and not pilots.

MayDaze
01-06-2013, 05:48 AM
Here is a thread about SLI. East/west (and whoever is interested) can argue freely here. Please leave the other threads alone.

KillingMeSmalls
01-06-2013, 07:05 AM
If the Nic was so fair, then why does the west love it and the east hate it? That doesn't sound fair to me.

What year did the McCaskill-Bond Amendment go into effect? If the Nic was before it, doesn't it make it non-binding outside of ALPA?

If APA decides to forgo the Nic could a east new hire (or AA recall) be put above a 10 year west guy?

What if the merger doesn't happen? Will it be a stalemate forever or will you guys meet in the middle?

R57 relay
01-06-2013, 08:38 AM
What if the merger doesn't happen? Will it be a stalemate forever or will you guys meet in the middle?

I think that absent a merger meeting in the middle is impossible. This will not end and we will not have a joint contract until the gavel falls at the SCOTUS. Separate operations with stagnation.

LittleBoyBlew
01-06-2013, 08:47 AM
SCOTUS will not touch our dispute...Eventually the east, with higher attrition, will replenish its ranks with new blood, new ideas, and a new approach. Absent a merger/ middle ground, DP will milk this dispute till most of us retire...

Rudder1
01-06-2013, 09:05 AM
DP will milk this dispute till most of us retire...


And when will this be for you Blew?

LittleBoyBlew
01-06-2013, 09:06 AM
And when will this be for you Blew?
Not soon enough.....

cactiboss
01-06-2013, 11:32 AM
If the Nic was so fair, then why does the west love it and the east hate it? That doesn't sound fair to me. what makes you think the west loves it? #1 west pilot goes to 517 and every west pilot loses relative position under the Nicolau award. Does it sound fair that the east pilots are trying to staple the west?

What year did the McCaskill-Bond Amendment go into effect? If the Nic was before it, doesn't it make it non-binding outside of ALPA? the nic. Was before MB. The courts in our case say the union can negotiate any and all terms of a contract as long as the parties agree. This is why the east took alpa away so the west would lose representation and not have a voice.

If APA decides to forgo the Nic could a east new hire (or AA recall) be put above a 10 year west guy? sure he could, an east new hire has a better career outlook than a 14 year west pilot currently.

What if the merger doesn't happen? Will it be a stalemate forever or will you guys meet in the middle?stalemate forever.

cactiboss
01-06-2013, 11:36 AM
I think that absent a merger meeting in the middle is impossible. This will not end and we will not have a joint contract until the gavel falls at the SCOTUS. Separate operations with stagnation.

Important to note stagnation on west side but no contract improvements eas either.

aa73
01-06-2013, 12:38 PM
I'm sure most of them have descent jobs by now.

Freudian slip? ;)

R57 relay
01-06-2013, 01:18 PM
every west pilot loses relative position under the Nicolau award.

Why do you lie? Over and over I have told you this, its a fact but you keep spreading B.S.!

If we flipped the switch on Nic today your beloved leader E.F. would jump from around 88% relative position on the entire west list, furloughed included, to about 76% on the combined list. The windfall gets bigger every year. He's a junior F/O that could jump to 737, A320, E190 captain or 767, A330 F/O. Windfall.

There will not be stalemate forever. Eventually we will get a legal answer and move on.

R57 relay
01-06-2013, 01:19 PM
Important to note stagnation on west side but no contract improvements eas either.

Yep. That is the price for the decisions we've made.

cactiboss
01-06-2013, 01:25 PM
Why do you lie? Over and over I have told you this, its a fact but you keep spreading B.S.!

If we flipped the switch on Nic today your beloved leader E.F. would jump from around 88% relative position on the entire west list, furloughed included, to about 76% on the combined list. The windfall gets bigger every year. He's a junior F/O that could jump to 737, A320, E190 captain or 767, A330 F/O. Windfall.

There will not be stalemate forever. Eventually we will get a legal answer and move on.you are the liar. Lets see, you use Eric's position after we shrunk from 1800 to 1300 pilots. You east guys are simply amazing, the merger happen in 2005 and those are the positions Nicolau used. The east forced the west to downgrade and furlough in 2008 and you use this as proof nic. Got it wrong and the west got a windfall. Just ridiculous. Lets see, I was a 757 captain when we merged and got downgraded in 2008, you think that your stealing my job should count against me? I hope you walk into arbitration and use that.

R57 relay
01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
you are the liar. Lets see, you use Eric's position after we shrunk from 1800 to 1300 pilots. You east guys are simply amazing, the merger happen in 2005 and those are the positions Nicolau used. The east forced the west to downgrade and furlough in 2008 and you use this as proof nic. Got it wrong and the west got a windfall. Just ridiculous. Lets see, I was a 757 captain when we merged and got downgraded in 2008, you think that your stealing my job should count against me? I hope you walk into arbitration and use that.

Liar or stupid? I can't figure you out.

First of all, Nicolau didn't use the 2005 list. He used the 2007 list that, in his words, more reflected the realities of the merged airline. But he held several hundred pilots that had already returned from furlough to THEIR 2005 position-furloughed. At the most EF had about 250 west pilots junior to him, but he got about 600 active east pilots put below him, and the entire furloughed list that either returned or resigned shortly thereafter. What did that do to his relative position? The undeniable fact is that west pilots junior to about the 35% point on the west list would get a bump in relative position on the Nic and it keeps getting bigger as the years go on. Have you actually read the Nicolau award? From your posts it appears that you haven't. It's available on cactuspilot.com if you would like to really educate yourself.

Nobody stole your job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are no east pilots flying west equipment. Separate ops, again! You've been told why you lost your seat. You decided that you wouldn't give an inch on the Nic, we decided we wouldn't either.

cactiboss
01-06-2013, 02:27 PM
Liar or stupid? I can't figure you out.

First of all, Nicolau didn't use the 2005 list. He used the 2007 list that, in his words, more reflected the realities of the merged airline. But he held several hundred pilots that had already returned from furlough to THEIR 2005 position-furloughed. At the most EF had about 250 west pilots junior to him, but he got about 600 active east pilots put below him, and the entire furloughed list that either returned or resigned shortly thereafter. What did that do to his relative position? The undeniable fact is that west pilots junior to about the 35% point on the west list would get a bump in relative position on the Nic and it keeps getting bigger as the years go on. Have you actually read the Nicolau award? From your posts it appears that you haven't. It's available on cactuspilot.com if you would like to really educate yourself.


Nobody stole your job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are no east pilots flying west equipment. Separate ops, again! You've been told why you lost your seat. You decided that you wouldn't give an inch on the Nic, we decided we wouldn't either.
You are amazing. How many pilots did you have on furlough when we merged in 2005? How many did the west have?. You did steal my job, you made sure there would be no contract under alpa and then stole my representation. Those are facts my friend.

PS. Usapa s union drive layed out the plan for everyone to see. Prevent an alpa contract, kick out alpa to take away west representation and voila, an industry standard doh contract in 90 days.

PSS nice video of you founder laying it out

awapilot x usapa part3 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/5CiiQYqT72s)

R57 relay
01-06-2013, 03:21 PM
You are amazing. How many pilots did you have on furlough when we merged in 2005? How many did the west have?. You did steal my job, you made sure there would be no contract under alpa and then stole my representation. Those are facts my friend.

PS. Usapa s union drive layed out the plan for everyone to see. Prevent an alpa contract, kick out alpa to take away west representation and voila, an industry standard doh contract in 90 days.

PSS nice video of you founder laying it out

awapilot x usapa part3 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/5CiiQYqT72s)

We'll go with stupid.

Go back and read the Stephan transcript that you pulled one sentence out of. He says there was no timeline to complete a joint contract. It's us the way it is. Everybody told you the risks about not budging, but you guys held your line. Fine, that was your right. But now you whine about the east doing the same. USAPA or no USAPA we did not have to agree to a joint contract and that action alone keeps us apart.

Seaslap8
01-06-2013, 03:30 PM
Subject: Notes from APA Meeting

Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters. Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.
Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad.
Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)
US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.

I wonder if this would include "BINDING ARBITRATION"....and what would happen when someone doesn't like the outcome.

cactiboss
01-06-2013, 03:48 PM
I wonder if this would include "BINDING ARBITRATION"....and what would happen when someone doesn't like the outcome.

I assume binding arbitration is the only way apa can protect itself from any litigation.

hockeypilot44
01-06-2013, 03:55 PM
I assume binding arbitration is the only way apa can protect itself from any litigation.

You're a scab. Go away.

cactusmike
01-06-2013, 03:57 PM
I wonder if this would include "BINDING ARBITRATION"....and what would happen when someone doesn't like the outcome.

I think the answer to that is yes, it is truly binding because it will be done with the force of federal law - McCaskille Bond and not contract law - ALPA merger policy. The argument that USAPA has made is that the Nicolau was done under a union contract and not a federally mandated arbitration.

Further to that is everyone from investors to management is well aware of how this has played out at US Airways. You can see some of the vocal elements here, and you can see the vitriol. No one wants a repeat of this again. Management will insist that whatever list is produced in the SLI will be the list. Parker could have done that years ago, he chose not to do it to save ion labor costs by whipsawing the two groups. He will not make that mistake again, the stakes are much larger this time and getting the contract done first will prevent the pay/workrules imbalance that has resulted in the stalemate we have here.

I would not expect long fences, either. If the ratio is done right there is little need for fences because everyone is slotted in by aircraft type and the seat they hold going into the merger. Management wants few restrictions on their ability to shift crews around the system, moving aircraft and people to more productive routes. We will see how this goes. I am awaiting the end of the NDA and our ability to see the MOU. That will give us some indication of how management wants this process to go through and it will show us the mechanism to get one contract and the path to industry standard wages and conditions. That's the real goal here.

R57 relay
01-06-2013, 04:05 PM
I wonder if this would include "BINDING ARBITRATION"....and what would happen when someone doesn't like the outcome.

I'd say that according to several federal court rulings that if a majority of pilots vote in a new union AND they can get the company to negotiate a new seniority list AND the new SL can survive a DFR, then yeah, they can change it. Unless as CM says, MB has more weight since it is a federal arbitration instead of an intra-union one.

Bunch of ANDs, huh. We've been at it for 5 years now and are only through the first. I doubt we will see it repeated.

cactiboss
01-06-2013, 04:59 PM
I'd say that according to several federal court rulings that if a majority of pilots vote in a new union AND they can get the company to negotiate a new seniority list AND the new SL can survive a DFR, then yeah, they can change it. Unless as CM says, MB has more weight since it is a federal arbitration instead of an intra-union one.


Therein lies the problem in our case. The 9th says we can't even ask the question wether it is "binding" until after a contract is signed. MB says its "final and binding" but if you follow the 9ths ruling the union can do whatever it wants. Now if what the union did ends up being illegal both the union and company can be liable to the injured parties. Really a chicken/egg thing and why Silver said the 9th made a bad decision

Bringupthebird
01-07-2013, 01:44 AM
I'd say that according to several federal court rulings that if a majority of pilots vote in a new union AND they can get the company to negotiate a new seniority list AND the new SL can survive a DFR, then yeah, they can change it.

Can you list the examples of when this has successfully been accomplished? Didn't think so.

CaptainBigWood
01-07-2013, 03:38 AM
This is far from done but it is fun to speculate. The west would like to see a relative position integration with protection on the widebody's for the Aa guys long enough to give most Aa an oppurtunity to fly the birds they brought. The east pilots want DOH and your 777 manuals ASAP
Flame Bait, not true. East pilots want their own attrition, nothing more. Cacti wants East attrition and AA widebody.

R57 relay
01-07-2013, 05:05 AM
Can you list the examples of when this has successfully been accomplished? Didn't think so.

No, I can't and to be honest I never thought USAPA would get this far. But they have and we are still in the middle of a very expensive experiment.

LittleBoyBlew
01-07-2013, 05:41 AM
Can you list the examples of when this has successfully been accomplished? Didn't think so.
In past mergers, the arbitrated SLI award produced an acceptable final product, that BOTH pilot groups were willing to live with. A joint CBA was then voted on, and the SLI was then CEMENTED and FINALISED. Hence the final product of a full integration.
In our case, the Nic was so lopsided, that the ENTIRE east pilot group felt betrayed and DAMAGED!! Hence our current situation. I believe our spat will be studied by generations to come. This truly is precedent setting. This is why a final ruling is so illusive.

tsquare
01-07-2013, 10:32 AM
You're a scab. Go away.

That is a pretty hefty charge. You got proof that he went against his union's strike?

R57 relay
01-07-2013, 12:59 PM
That is a pretty hefty charge. You got proof that he went against his union's strike?

Tis that. Unfortunately it's one west pilots use every day against the east, with cacti being one of the most guilty. Have you admonished him? If so thanks from one of the most scab free pilots in the nation. US EAST.

cactiboss
01-07-2013, 07:02 PM
Found this on another board and thought it was dead on.




US Airways and its pilots

In the conversations that take place regarding the US Airways / American Airlines merger opportunity, naysayers within both companies frequently end up being the pilots. The minority groups of these pilots like to ask for (demand) firm agreements on seniority integration and point to Doug Parker and his team being unable to achieve seniority integration for US Airways pilots since the America West / US Airways merger of 2005.

That’s really not true. The history there is bloody but it really is the fault and responsibility of the pilots involved that combination. Here is what has happened:

America West and US Airways pilots were both represented by ALPA. As such, when the merger occurred there was a mechanism in place at ALPA to arbitrate such a seniority integration. There were many issues but the overriding viewpoints on each side were centered around a couple of things. America West pilots felt they deserved to have their seniority (and job opportunities) guarded to some fair degree because it was their airline that was consuming US Airways which had been in bankruptcy not once but twice in the same decade. That was a reasonable viewpoint and it could have been handled by using “fences” to protect some percentage of jobs for those pilots.

US Airways pilots wanted a date of hire seniority integration because their pilot group had some very old, very senior pilots who didn’t want to be knocked down from the premium pilot opportunities. Since these pilots had agreed to major wage concessions in two bankruptcies, they felt they had given enough at that point. This wasn’t entirely reasonable but it wasn’t entirely unreasonable either.

In the arbitration discussions, US Airways representation basically went “hardline” and drilled in on a date of hire seniority integration and avoided discussing any ways to come to a compromise using mechanisms that would give each side some protection and some opportunity. Fencing routes and/or aircraft was one way this could have been handled and the most senior of each pilot group could have had their retirement protected reasonably well.

But the hardline negotiations on the part of the US Airways group led to the arbitrator having to make a tough ruling that blended each group with a relative date of hire integration. This solution had some fairly junior America West captains sitting in front of some fairly senior US Airways captains (as an example.)

US Airways pilots went livid and used the nuclear option. They held a new union representation election and formed a new independent union called USAPA. They were able to do this because they actually outnumbered America West pilots. Essentially, US Airways pilots didn’t like the binding arbitration and had a rare opportunity to stick it to everyone and did so.

This breakaway and the lack of seniority integration has been litigated in court ever since between the two pilot groups. Doug Parker and his executive team have very wisely stayed far, far away from this problem the whole time. They’re not even sure who they should legally engage in negotiations with and have (rightly) offered the opinion that the pilots had to get their act together first. The pilots have been unable to do so for more than 5 years.

Frankly, my own opinion is that a court should have made a decision that looked like this:
•The pilots may organize in any way they wish including creating an independent union. However,
•The pilots must integrate according to the ALPA/Nicolau seniority integration arbitration decision before anything else occurs. Binding arbitration that results in a decision should be enforced otherwise binding arbitration isn’t binding.
•After the seniority integration is implemented, the pilots may work out their contracts and future seniority issues among themselves and with the company leadership.

Under that scenario, no one gets their cake and the chance to eat it too.

Now, there is a reason why most pilots actually view the US Airways / AA merger as a good thing. There is now federal law which governs a seniority integration which didn’t exist when America West bought US Airways. This law works fairly well. Not perfectly but it does get the job done and that’s important.

American Airlines pilots are very senior and know that under that federal law they’ll do pretty well. If they do pretty well and the new airline is successful, their future is pretty secure and that’s what a pilot wants.

America West pilots know that they’ll do pretty well because the merger framework pretty much raises their incomes to levels never thought of before because the baseline for those wages will be AA pilot wages. Even if they lose some positions in seniority, everyone makes a lot more money. Best of all, USAPA almost certainly goes away as a union and that is an emotional win for America West pilots. (I would argue that while USAPA is pretty awful as a union, they aren’t exactly upgrading big with AA’s Allied Pilots Association.)

US Airways (Old) pilots are very senior and know that they’ll do pretty well under the federal law as seniority integration goes and they, too, get a big raise.

All three parties in this know that they don’t have to deal with a multi-year mess of seniority integration if this deal is made because the McCaskill Bond statute provides adequate framework for a fairly timely seniority integration. No union leadership in this battle has to “fight” because there is only so much that can be fought for under the law now. Notice that in the United / Continental merger there really wasn’t much “fight” between the unions as there were few areas where any “fight” could occur.

So despite the naysayers predicting a mess of seniority integration, that’s not really true. It will happen and the worse case scenario is that everyone gets a pay raise and gets a fairly secure future with an airline that can compete globally. More so, Doug Parker and his team also know this and also know that if they present a deal that gets everyone a bit of what they want in a worst case scenario, they’ll be integrated in fairly short time. They can do this deal and succeed in the labor area without much fear and most creditors know this by now.

PurpleTurtle
01-09-2013, 04:21 PM
Found this on another board and thought it was dead on.


It was written by an AOL member and isn't too concerned with being objective..

"I would argue that while USAPA is pretty awful as a union"

but over all its a great opinion, as far as biased opinions go. :D

flyfast15
01-09-2013, 06:42 PM
Great article, it is the fastest way to improve our wages and be competitive. Lets put the pass behind us and think about our future. Can we all just get along.

FreighterGuyNow
01-13-2013, 06:43 AM
IYou can see some of the vocal elements here, and you can see the vitriol.

With the worst of the bunch being you.

saabslime
01-13-2013, 07:17 AM
The only way the SLI goes smoothly and in a timely manner is if the Nic list is used. Absent that, the integration will be bogged down in the courts until Parker and Co. are told what they HAVE to do with the list.

cactusmike
01-13-2013, 01:05 PM
With the worst of the bunch being you.

Okayyyyy! Not sure where you are coming from with that. I have tried to stick to the facts. But if that's your opinion then fine, be happy.

ncpilot624
01-13-2013, 04:45 PM
With the worst of the bunch being you.

I completely disagree. I'd say Mike is one of the more neutral East/West pilots on here.

R57 relay
01-15-2013, 02:26 PM
I completely disagree. I'd say Mike is one of the more neutral East/West pilots on here.

Well, I wouldn't say neutral. It's very easy to see where his loyalty and fairness beliefs are. But, I will say that he is one of the most even keeled, and respectful west posters on this board. No, the most even keeled, respectful west poster.

SilverandSore
01-15-2013, 03:04 PM
Ok, so the MOU mentions McCaskill-Bond will be used; "A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible after the Effective Date." I'm assuming this mean the Nic is out?

cactusmike
01-15-2013, 03:40 PM
Ok, so the MOU mentions McCaskill-Bond will be used; "A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible after the Effective Date." I'm assuming this mean the Nic is out?

Ha, great question. We will let you know in about a year!

As usual we received no clarity on this issue with today's release of the MOU. There are a lot of ambiguities in some of the wording. We do know that MB will be the mechanism for resolving the AA/LCC seniority. The question is still out there which list or lists will be submitted by USAPA. Will there be one list or two lists? Logic would suggest to you that USAPA will submit separate lists for east and west and take their chances with a three way. I don't really have anything more to offer until I go to a roadshow on the MOU and we ask the lawyers.

The NIC may or may not still be in play. It certainly was not mentioned, although only a few would really believe that such a controversial topic would have been part of the MOU. We will have to wait a while until the merger is announced and the JCBA process starts. Remember, the SLI will be done after the JCBA is done. And if you look at the timeline for things to happen I believe the APA will be the sole bargaining agent for everyone at the SLI point.

MD10PLT
01-16-2013, 12:32 PM
OK as an outsider; question, if APA is the lead on the SLI, do they use the standard they have set; the TWA SLI?

buddies8
01-16-2013, 12:43 PM
you dont fly much do you. you may have missed the law that passed on integration due to the apa integration of twa.

brakechatter
01-16-2013, 03:31 PM
Ha, great question. We will let you know in about a year!

As usual we received no clarity on this issue with today's release of the MOU. There are a lot of ambiguities in some of the wording. We do know that MB will be the mechanism for resolving the AA/LCC seniority. The question is still out there which list or lists will be submitted by USAPA. Will there be one list or two lists? Logic would suggest to you that USAPA will submit separate lists for east and west and take their chances with a three way. I don't really have anything more to offer until I go to a roadshow on the MOU and we ask the lawyers.

The NIC may or may not still be in play. It certainly was not mentioned, although only a few would really believe that such a controversial topic would have been part of the MOU. We will have to wait a while until the merger is announced and the JCBA process starts. Remember, the SLI will be done after the JCBA is done. And if you look at the timeline for things to happen I believe the APA will be the sole bargaining agent for everyone at the SLI point.

How do you read this part of the agreement:

US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

You seem fairly rational, so I bring it up merely for discussion, as I am sure that the question will be answered definitively in the road shows.

Does this imply a three way or not? Notice the s on the word lists.

Furthermore, I think it is a very smart play to include this in an MOU. If Nic is used and the vote is yes from USAirways, it is going to be very hard to sue. Majority rule kind of thing.

If a three way is used, and the vote is yes from USAirways, it is going to be very hard to successfully sue--Majority rules kind of thing AND likely no union left to sue with USAPA gone and APA not a party to the agreement.

Then again, I may be way off base, as i haven't been as involved as some on here.

cactusmike
01-16-2013, 07:10 PM
How do you read this part of the agreement:

US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

You seem fairly rational, so I bring it up merely for discussion, as I am sure that the question will be answered definitively in the road shows.

Does this imply a three way or not? Notice the s on the word lists.

Furthermore, I think it is a very smart play to include this in an MOU. If Nic is used and the vote is yes from USAirways, it is going to be very hard to sue. Majority rule kind of thing.

If a three way is used, and the vote is yes from USAirways, it is going to be very hard to successfully sue--Majority rules kind of thing AND likely no union left to sue with USAPA gone and APA not a party to the agreement.

Then again, I may be way off base, as i haven't been as involved as some on here.

We are not sure yet. The most you can say about that line is that there will be no list reordering until the AA/LCC SLI is done. Which kind of restates that the Bond McCaskill will be the integration method used. What it does mean is that the question of the Nicolau is postponed until the SLI negotiations begin. The thinking out here is that the company lawyers carefully crafted this to tiptoe around the Nicolau minefield and buy the East vote. No Nic- vote yes on the east side.

As I said before we will have to see how this goes down. I don't have any bold projections and anyone on the west side that does is talking out his ***. I am anxiously waiting the roadshow, I think we will have a little more clarity after they are done.

lckck84
01-16-2013, 07:21 PM
Does the MOU include Eagle Aircraft? All of the ERJs and CRJs are now owned by American Airlines..is there a carve out for those aircraft? I haven't read the MOU in whole but from what I've heard it states that APA fly all aircraft owned by American Airlines. where do the eagle pilots come into play?

cactusmike
01-16-2013, 07:50 PM
Does the MOU include Eagle Aircraft? All of the ERJs and CRJs are now owned by American Airlines..is there a carve out for those aircraft? I haven't read the MOU in whole but from what I've heard it states that APA fly all aircraft owned by American Airlines. where do the eagle pilots come into play?

You will have to wait and see the fleet lists that will be part of Appendix A. My guess is that Eagle will be part of the allowed regional flying but beyond that we will have to see. The trend seems be going to a mix of wholly owned and contract flying.

80drvr
01-18-2013, 04:00 AM
you dont fly much do you. you may have missed the law that passed on integration due to the apa integration of twa.

The impetus for the law was the APFA integration (or non integration) of the TWA FAs.