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View Full Version : PHX Usapa rep's update re: Merger


cactiboss
05-12-2012, 02:43 PM
May 12, 2012 UPDATE

Phoenix Pilots: This PHX final update that we have been batting around for the past 3 days. This update was sent to USAPA’s James Ray @ 1545 CT with the statement that if it was not published verbatim, I would personally publish it by other electronic means after 1700 CT. The previous versions were edited by James Ray. In a previous version we requested that President Hummel simply place asterisks in place of the material HE deemed untrue so that we could address those areas of concern, yet at the close of business this week, we have only now received THEIR version of our update, we find this unacceptable. BTW: this update is essentially the same update.


We understand our predecessors regularly dealt with this sort of censorship and we were hopeful that USAPA's new president would ensure the greater transparency which he promised. So far, we are not finding this to be the case as we continue to experience difficulty in having our updates published as written.


Our Phoenix-based pilots are entitled to hear from their representatives in a timely fashion, especially in these fast-moving times. Efforts by the association to once again MANAGE our expectations in accordance with its USAPA worldview will not be tolerated by your PHX reps. To reiterate, the message which follows solely reflects the opinions of your Phoenix representatives, amounts to an “unofficial update,” HAS NOT “been approved by USAPA,” and may not reflect the official position of the union.

Thank you for your patience while your representatives deal with the obstacles USAPA has placed in our path.

Brothers and Sisters of the Phoenix Domicile,

We appreciate the attention that the Negotiating ADVISORY Committee (NAC) has garnered as a result of their travels to DFW. Phoenix-based pilots have been ready, willing, and able to participate in the negotiating process for the last few years, but have been unable to do so on terms acceptable to the West. Now, the prospective AA merger, when combined with a new USAPA President has suddenly created a new opportunity for the pilots of PHX.

Our newly appointed Phoenix-based (NAC) members were present in the negotiating session between the APA and US Airways management for only a short time on Tuesday (about an hour), yet were completely left out on Wednesday. They did speak with several APA leaders while waiting to be admitted to the meeting (which they were not) but did manage to make some important connections.

The ongoing negotiation process is not what you may be thinking; no party is engaged in “Section 6 Negotiations” (per the RLA), nor is any party currently negotiating a “joint contract” like we were when previously engaged with the old US Airways pilots and management. Those negotiation have been “parked” by the NMB.

US Airways is apparently in the process of negotiating only with APA (the Allied Pilots Association) for a collective bargaining agreement that only includes the present-day AA pilots. US Airways management IS NOT NEGOTIATING with USAPA, or the pilots presently employed by US Airways – PERIOD.

If a merger between US Airways and American Airlines in consummated, then AFTER AA emerges from bankruptcy, the company plans to combine the “New AA” with the ”New” US Airways. Keep in mind that “combine” has two different meanings for labor and for management.

Presently, the company sees no reason to negotiate with the US Airways pilots, and judging from the statements from our counterparts in Texas, the APA apparently feels that it is THEIR CONTRACT to negotiate, and is of little concern to either the East, or the West pilots of US Airways. This is also made clear from the language in the APA/US Airways term sheet.

After the companies merge, the new airline's management will enter into negotiations for a Transition Agreement, but only with the APA. Subsequent to the transition agreement negotiations, there will be a filing by the APA to the National Mediation Board no later than 60 days after the merger which will seek to certify the APA as the single collective bargaining agent for all pilots of the New AA. According to the plain language of the Term Sheet, only after the APA (or whatever association prevails) is certified as the sole collective bargaining agent will East/West pilots enter into the equation. Presumably the APA will begin negotiating a contract that covers all pilots at the New AA and, although we are speculating here, it seems likely that US Airways pilots will have two choices: 1) accept the APA’s contract over which they are currently negotiating with Parker; or, 2) enter into an additional round of negotiations for a combined contract that covers East, West and present-day AA pilots. In other words, there may be a few more years of C2004 and LOA93 while the APA pilots work under the new contract with its superior wages to either East or West contract.

So where does that leave us? It is our intention and hope that we can get the APA leadership to see the wisdom in soliciting assistance from our many West “Subject Matter Experts” (SMEs) to help educate them on the important facets of our contract which clearly is the basis for several important sections of AA's Conditional Labor Agreement, specifically PBS. We feel that all pilots under the combined airline will benefit from former AWA pilot input as the new AA contract (particularly work rules) will reportedly be based on many of the progressive/flexible work rules that the West pilots now have. CONSIDER ALSO that there is one more obstacle to getting West SME’s to Dallas – the three PHX representatives have zero control over who gets removed from the flight schedule in order to conduct union work.

Ladies and Gentlemen, please remember that your three PHX Representatives have a small voice, and only THREE VOTES out of Eleven on the BPR. It is only our known unity which amplifies the importance of our three votes and our limited influence within the Association. Usually, we don’t have the influence to even decide for USAPA what's for lunch at a BPR meeting. Our recommendations for the NAC positions were not made carelessly, nor in a vacuum, but your support of these individuals is critical at this time. Please maintain your status as a MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING in order to vote and allow PHX to keep our three BPR slots. Though it doesn't seem like much, it’s all we have now.


Thank you for your time and support.


John Scherff-PHX Chairman
Robert Velez – PHX V/C
David Simmons – PHX V/C


Tomahawk58
05-12-2012, 04:19 PM
May 12, 2012 UPDATE

Phoenix Pilots: This PHX final update that we have been batting around for the past 3 days. This update was sent to USAPA’s James Ray @ 1545 CT with the statement that if it was not published verbatim, I would personally publish it by other electronic means after 1700 CT. The previous versions were edited by James Ray. In a previous version we requested that President Hummel simply place asterisks in place of the material HE deemed untrue so that we could address those areas of concern, yet at the close of business this week, we have only now received THEIR version of our update, we find this unacceptable. BTW: this update is essentially the same update.


We understand our predecessors regularly dealt with this sort of censorship and we were hopeful that USAPA's new president would ensure the greater transparency which he promised. So far, we are not finding this to be the case as we continue to experience difficulty in having our updates published as written.


Our Phoenix-based pilots are entitled to hear from their representatives in a timely fashion, especially in these fast-moving times. Efforts by the association to once again MANAGE our expectations in accordance with its USAPA worldview will not be tolerated by your PHX reps. To reiterate, the message which follows solely reflects the opinions of your Phoenix representatives, amounts to an “unofficial update,” HAS NOT “been approved by USAPA,” and may not reflect the official position of the union.

Thank you for your patience while your representatives deal with the obstacles USAPA has placed in our path.

Brothers and Sisters of the Phoenix Domicile,

We appreciate the attention that the Negotiating ADVISORY Committee (NAC) has garnered as a result of their travels to DFW. Phoenix-based pilots have been ready, willing, and able to participate in the negotiating process for the last few years, but have been unable to do so on terms acceptable to the West. Now, the prospective AA merger, when combined with a new USAPA President has suddenly created a new opportunity for the pilots of PHX.

Our newly appointed Phoenix-based (NAC) members were present in the negotiating session between the APA and US Airways management for only a short time on Tuesday (about an hour), yet were completely left out on Wednesday. They did speak with several APA leaders while waiting to be admitted to the meeting (which they were not) but did manage to make some important connections.

The ongoing negotiation process is not what you may be thinking; no party is engaged in “Section 6 Negotiations” (per the RLA), nor is any party currently negotiating a “joint contract” like we were when previously engaged with the old US Airways pilots and management. Those negotiation have been “parked” by the NMB.

US Airways is apparently in the process of negotiating only with APA (the Allied Pilots Association) for a collective bargaining agreement that only includes the present-day AA pilots. US Airways management IS NOT NEGOTIATING with USAPA, or the pilots presently employed by US Airways – PERIOD.

If a merger between US Airways and American Airlines in consummated, then AFTER AA emerges from bankruptcy, the company plans to combine the “New AA” with the ”New” US Airways. Keep in mind that “combine” has two different meanings for labor and for management.

Presently, the company sees no reason to negotiate with the US Airways pilots, and judging from the statements from our counterparts in Texas, the APA apparently feels that it is THEIR CONTRACT to negotiate, and is of little concern to either the East, or the West pilots of US Airways. This is also made clear from the language in the APA/US Airways term sheet.

After the companies merge, the new airline's management will enter into negotiations for a Transition Agreement, but only with the APA. Subsequent to the transition agreement negotiations, there will be a filing by the APA to the National Mediation Board no later than 60 days after the merger which will seek to certify the APA as the single collective bargaining agent for all pilots of the New AA. According to the plain language of the Term Sheet, only after the APA (or whatever association prevails) is certified as the sole collective bargaining agent will East/West pilots enter into the equation. Presumably the APA will begin negotiating a contract that covers all pilots at the New AA and, although we are speculating here, it seems likely that US Airways pilots will have two choices: 1) accept the APA’s contract over which they are currently negotiating with Parker; or, 2) enter into an additional round of negotiations for a combined contract that covers East, West and present-day AA pilots. In other words, there may be a few more years of C2004 and LOA93 while the APA pilots work under the new contract with its superior wages to either East or West contract.

So where does that leave us? It is our intention and hope that we can get the APA leadership to see the wisdom in soliciting assistance from our many West “Subject Matter Experts” (SMEs) to help educate them on the important facets of our contract which clearly is the basis for several important sections of AA's Conditional Labor Agreement, specifically PBS. We feel that all pilots under the combined airline will benefit from former AWA pilot input as the new AA contract (particularly work rules) will reportedly be based on many of the progressive/flexible work rules that the West pilots now have. CONSIDER ALSO that there is one more obstacle to getting West SME’s to Dallas – the three PHX representatives have zero control over who gets removed from the flight schedule in order to conduct union work.

Ladies and Gentlemen, please remember that your three PHX Representatives have a small voice, and only THREE VOTES out of Eleven on the BPR. It is only our known unity which amplifies the importance of our three votes and our limited influence within the Association. Usually, we don’t have the influence to even decide for USAPA what's for lunch at a BPR meeting. Our recommendations for the NAC positions were not made carelessly, nor in a vacuum, but your support of these individuals is critical at this time. Please maintain your status as a MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING in order to vote and allow PHX to keep our three BPR slots. Though it doesn't seem like much, it’s all we have now.


Thank you for your time and support.


John Scherff-PHX Chairman
Robert Velez – PHX V/C
David Simmons – PHX V/C

You guys should have figured out by now that the APA is in this for themselves first and foremost. I've said this from the beginning but some vocal and disloyal AAers attempted to drown out those messages.

The arrogance alone of the APA leadership thinking they know what's best for all pilots including the US group without a seat at the table is beyond lunacy.

This is an APA and Mr Parker plus Kirby power play pure and simple!

Jack Bauer
05-12-2012, 05:07 PM
You guys should have figured out by now that the APA is in this for themselves first and foremost. I've said this from the beginning but some vocal and disloyal AAers attempted to drown out those messages.

The arrogance alone of the APA leadership thinking they know what's best for all pilots including the US group without a seat at the table is beyond lunacy.

This is an APA and Mr Parker plus Kirby power play pure and simple!

The arrogance of you, management, thinking you know what's best....coming on here speaking for line pilots is beyond lunacy.:mad:


FreighterGuyNow
05-12-2012, 05:15 PM
A week into it and the West pilot group starts vilifying the APA.

At least you have an insight into what the East has been dealing with.

That West contingent needs to be dumped for the poisonous desert scorpions they are.

Tomahawk58
05-12-2012, 05:29 PM
A week into it and the West pilot group starts vilifying the APA.

At least you have an insight into what the East has been dealing with.

That West contingent needs to be dumped for the poisonous desert scorpions they are.

It's gonna be the making of a beautiful combined relationship all led by the APA.

Resistance is futile!

Thirty pieces of silver buys a lot these days.

flybywire44
05-13-2012, 10:40 AM
APA coming in and running the show is a good thing; more experienced union, new and fair SLI solution and more powerful legal presence then USAPA and AOL can muster.

PBS is not a mysterious system, I'm sure one or two USAPA reps understand it. APA may ask US Airways' PBS manager to introduce them to the program directly.

APAs interests may not be aligned with AOL. :eek:

The status quo of AOL/USAPA is about to end.

Lcamp2100
05-13-2012, 04:07 PM
Bond/Mckaskill will drive seniority integration and the APA memebers have ephatically stated they will only accept a contract with Parker if all pilots of the new AA wiork under that agreement..

A lot of water to go under the bridge here - not even sure if this deal wil actually go through..

cactiboss
05-13-2012, 07:26 PM
A week into it and the West pilot group starts vilifying the APA.

At least you have an insight into what the East has been dealing with.

That West contingent needs to be dumped for the poisonous desert scorpions they are.

You want to tell them why southwest almost left capa because of usapa? How about how the teamsters want nothing to do with you guys? Maybe your illegal job action? Your Rico lawsuit against the west? Your dfr conviction in record time?

GW258
05-14-2012, 11:35 AM
cactiboss,

I think you really need to start giving some thought to what you post regarding issues on your property here or at least maybe you should start a US Airways west website so you can focus on what appears to be another you vs them problem where your group can become part of a solution vs this same old crap you folks constantly go on about. I know these issues are important to you folks but I'm not sure you will ever be happy with any outcome in any situation.

cactiboss
05-14-2012, 12:58 PM
cactiboss,

I think you really need to start giving some thought to what you post regarding issues on your property here or at least maybe you should start a US Airways west website so you can focus on what appears to be another you vs them problem where your group can become part of a solution vs this same old crap you folks constantly go on about. I know these issues are important to you folks but I'm not sure you will ever be happy with any outcome in any situation.

All those boards already exist. I will not allow a post disparaging the west with east lies go unanswered. Get used to it.

Sliceback
05-14-2012, 01:39 PM
i will not allow a post disparaging the west with east lies go unanswered. Get used to it.



thor has spoken!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sliceback
05-14-2012, 04:30 PM
time check.

LittleBoyBlew
05-14-2012, 04:43 PM
All those boards already exist. I will not allow a post disparaging the west with east lies go unanswered. Get used to it.

SPARTANS ATTACK!!...You boyz sure sound comical. Tell me, if this merger happens, will you please continue with the east/west thing. If you don't I will have nothing else to read and all these forums will return to the normal BORING humm....

eaglefly
05-14-2012, 05:41 PM
Yes, this "Isreali/Palestinian" conflict has a tendency to fester. I'd caution that the merger scenario is still in its infancy and not to jump too far ahead.

The most important thing for true "red, white and blue" AA'ers (with the exception of a misguided few ;)), is having a future. I read some interesting comments by a fellow pilot who had Robert Crandall on two of his flights recently and it sounded like Crandall wasn't thrilled with the current (and planned) stand-alone game plan for AA. Apparently, the thought there is a merger is needed and the fallacy of giving up market share to others is a blunder.

This from the guy who arguably built AA into what it was (a powerhouse), before that house became so rundown and stripped of all its worth. That carries MAJOR weight with me, anyway. On every flight now, I look southwestward toward Phoenix to see if a bit of sun is there.

Nothing but ugly, bumpy clouds in DFW. :rolleyes:

cactiboss
05-14-2012, 07:45 PM
thor has spoken!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The name is Boss, Cacti Boss. ;)

cactiboss
05-14-2012, 07:48 PM
SPARTANS ATTACK!!...You boyz sure sound comical. Tell me, if this merger happens, will you please continue with the east/west thing. If you don't I will have nothing else to read and all these forums will return to the normal BORING humm....

We are hoping the merger dilutes the east infection we have been living with, though they will still be here they will be impotent and easily crushed. Btw you still hanging on to your coc?

cactiboss
05-14-2012, 07:51 PM
Yes, this "Isreali/Palestinian" conflict has a tendency to fester. I'd caution that the merger scenario is still in its infancy and not to jump too far ahead.

The most important thing for true "red, white and blue" AA'ers (with the exception of a misguided few ;)), is having a future. I read some interesting comments by a fellow pilot who had Robert Crandall on two of his flights recently and it sounded like Crandall wasn't thrilled with the current (and planned) stand-alone game plan for AA. Apparently, the thought there is a merger is needed and the fallacy of giving up market share to others is a blunder.

This from the guy who arguably built AA into what it was (a powerhouse), before that house became so rundown and stripped of all its worth. That carries MAJOR weight with me, anyway. On every flight now, I look southwestward toward Phoenix to see if a bit of sun is there.

Nothing but ugly, bumpy clouds in DFW. :rolleyes:
Well said, this deal is a long way from done and Horton is actively opposing it. When you look at both plans there is no question Doug's is the winner by a long mile, the whole industry and majority of analysts support it for the stability and profit potential it creates.

Iowa Farm Boy
05-15-2012, 04:45 AM
Just don't forget that both Parker and Horton are Crandall's progeny. They both "grew up" in the AMR school of employee relations.

Why can't we get someone who "grew up" in the Herb K's. school?

LittleBoyBlew
05-15-2012, 06:20 AM
We are hoping the merger dilutes the east infection we have been living with, though they will still be here they will be impotent and easily crushed. Btw you still hanging on to your coc?

Although its rather BULKY, I still consider it a CARRY ON!!:D

Bad-Andy
05-15-2012, 08:37 AM
Just don't forget that both Parker and Horton are Crandall's progeny. They both "grew up" in the AMR school of employee relations.

Why can't we get someone who "grew up" in the Herb K's. school?

Because EVERYONE that grew up in the Herb K. school of employee relations is smart enough to stay away from this festering mess. The good leaders aren't interested in coming here and being beaten down by both sides -- management and labor. Why would anyone (that doesn't have a serious personality disorder, that is) want to get involved in this mess? All the good leaders are smart enough to either 1) stay at SWA, 2) go to Alaska, or 3) get the heck out of this industry...

Either way, I just came back from a layover in PHX, and I can't believe some of the joy I saw at USAPA getting booted from the meetings last week. Sure they are reaping what they have sown. (Yep, sucks to be excluded from the process and just be along for the ride). But, hello, USAPA may not be very good (relatively speaking), but for now they're all we have. It seems a little short-sighted to rejoice.

But what do I know... I just a want a 3 year leave and come back when the retirements are in full-swing and the merger is done (one way or the other...).

LittleBoyBlew
05-15-2012, 09:06 AM
The WEST boyz are rowing faster on their side of the canoe. What they perceive to be the shore, may just be the edge of a waterfall... Either way, I hope this thing takes a turn for the better. Most of us are tired of the infighting and childishness.

GW258
05-15-2012, 10:10 AM
All those boards already exist. I will not allow a post disparaging the west with east lies go unanswered. Get used to it.


I've been around awhile and one thing I've learned in multiple mergers is you will allways have a group you can't make happy. They in turn don't want anyone else to ever be happy, even many years later.

With a potential combination of another pilot group with the west that has been around the block and paid thier dues to the company to survive, you may want to reconsider your present tatics.

Regarding "get used to it", I hope you are that exception to the overall pilot group that is full of venom vs the rest. No one will ever get use to what you represent, right or wrong.

Best to you anyway and if you are a captain, don't take it out on your partner.

cactiboss
05-15-2012, 10:30 AM
I've been around awhile and one thing I've learned in multiple mergers is you will allways have a group you can't make happy. They in turn don't want anyone else to ever be happy, even many years later. This is what you think is going on here? Well then you are completely ignorant and I won't waste my time replying to stupid uninformed posts.

With a potential combination of another pilot group with the west that has been around the block and paid thier dues to the company to survive, you may want to reconsider your present tatics. Nope our tactics will remain the exact same, try using your majority to impose what you think is fair and we will see you in court. Live up to your agreements and we will have no problems.

Regarding "get used to it", I hope you are that exception to the overall pilot group that is full of venom vs the rest. No one will ever get use to what you represent, right or wrong.

Best to you anyway and if you are a captain, don't take it out on your partner.
No one will get used to what I represent? You mean when a larger pilot group stole my union, refuses to represent my interests. is convicted of dfr, sues me under racketeering laws and has actively tried to staple 80% of my pilot group below their furloughs, we shouldn't fight back? I got news for you. I represent 90% of the west pilot's who refuse to be bullied and have consistently beat the snot out of the east. Management publicly says usapa is the worst thing to ever happen to any pilot group, continues lies and fairy tails keep the east ignorant following false prophets, You think LCC working around usapa and setting up a term sheet with the apa that kills usapa asap is a coincidence?

cactiboss
05-15-2012, 10:33 AM
The WEST boyz are rowing faster on their side of the canoe. What they perceive to be the shore, may just be the edge of a waterfall... Either way, I hope this thing takes a turn for the better. Most of us are tired of the infighting and childishness.
Anything that kills usapa and dilutes the worst pilot group this industry has ever seen. Sometimes you have to cut your arm off to get rid of a cancer, we are ready willing and able to do it.

cactiboss
05-15-2012, 12:35 PM
Either way, I just came back from a layover in PHX, and I can't believe some of the joy I saw at USAPA getting booted from the meetings last week. Sure they are reaping what they have sown. (Yep, sucks to be excluded from the process and just be along for the ride). But, hello, USAPA may not be very good (relatively speaking), but for now they're all we have. It seems a little short-sighted to rejoice.




It's only short sighted because usapa is not yet dead. Usapa does not represent the west in any case, you should know the wests careers greatest enemy is the east pilots and their union period

cactiboss
05-15-2012, 01:43 PM
It's only short sighted because usapa is not yet dead. Usapa does not represent the west in any case, you should know the wests careers greatest enemy is the east pilots and their union period
BTW we fully expect to be suing usapa again in the near future, we have no doubt they will continue in their attempts to harm us on their way out.

Sliceback
05-15-2012, 02:29 PM
But what do I know... I just a want a 3 year leave and come back when the retirements are in full-swing and the merger is done (one way or the other...).


Buddy went through a merger - "I'm outta here." Took a military leave of absence.

Smart move.

Bad-Andy
05-16-2012, 01:48 PM
Buddy went through a merger - "I'm outta here." Took a military leave of absence.

Smart move.

I tried. Request denied this morning by the powers that be. Now for some tough decisions.....

amcflyboy
05-16-2012, 01:57 PM
I tried. Request denied this morning by the powers that be. Now for some tough decisions.....

Whoa whoa, wait a minute! You submitted a request for military leave from your company and they denied you? You do know that you are covered under USERRA if they pull that crap with you. It's time to start rattling some cages!
That is just flat out illegal.

Bad-Andy
05-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Whoa whoa, wait a minute! You submitted a request for military leave from your company and they denied you? You do know that you are covered under USERRA if they pull that crap with you. It's time to start rattling some cages!
That is just flat out illegal.

No, a request for a personal leave, not mil leave.