Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Citation Type Ratings


MoZak18
06-26-2012, 01:45 PM
I am curious as to how the Citation type ratings work. What I mean by that is, what Citation types count for what aircraft? For example with Lears, an LR-JET type gives you all 20s, 30s, and 50s, with exception of the Lear 31 (I may have missed a few but you get the idea). I am aware of the following Citations: Citation Bravo, Citation Excel, Citation I/SI, Citation II/SII, Citation III, Citation Ultra, Citation VlI, Citation Vl, Citation V, and Citation X. Do each of these aircraft require their own unique type and training or is there a mix and match like with the Lears? Thanks for any and all responses.


DirectTo
06-26-2012, 02:06 PM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's:

CE-500: I, II, V, Ultra, Bravo
CE-560: XLS
CE-650: III, VI, VII
CE-750: X
CE-680: Sovereign

I'm sure I'm missing some in there.

When I did my 650 at CAE, it was a course about the III with VII differences thrown in.

ekuflyer
06-26-2012, 02:10 PM
CE-500 covers 500/501, 550/551, 560 (I/ISP, II/IISP/SII, Bravo, V, Ultra, Encore/+)
CE-510 covers Mustang
CE-525(s) Covers CJ, CJ1, CJ1+,M2, CJ2, CJ2+, CJ3, CJ4 (CE-525s is the single pilot type)
CE-560XL covers Excel, XLS/+
CE-650 covers III, VI, VII
CE-680 covers Sovereign
CE-750 covers X, Ten

And the LR31 is covered on the LR-JET type.

Cheers


MoZak18
06-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Thanks a lot for the quick responses guys. And ekuflyer, that's right, I forgot the 31 is covered in that. Another question if I can get an opinion...if you had the option to choose one of those types (assuming you had no types), which would it be? The selection being based on the commonality of the aircraft it covers, the number of jobs out there/demand, and the overall likelihood of a relatively low time pilot (about 1500 hrs with a little turbine time) getting an FO position at the moment?

ekuflyer
06-26-2012, 03:11 PM
Thanks a lot for the quick responses guys. And ekuflyer, that's right, I forgot the 31 is covered in that. Another question if I can get an opinion...if you had the option to choose one of those types (assuming you had no types), which would it be? The selection being based on the commonality of the aircraft it covers, the number of jobs out there/demand, and the overall likelihood of a relatively low time pilot (about 1500 hrs with a little turbine time) getting an FO position at the moment?

Based on numbers I would go with the 525 type. We are approaching the 1500 total 525's in service and 4 of them are still being built. However a lot of them are flown single pilot. The 500 type covers a lot of airplanes as well, but none are in production anymore, so their numbers will continue to shrink.
Just my .02 cents

BoilerUP
06-26-2012, 04:17 PM
Based on numbers I would go with the 525 type. We are approaching the 1500 total 525's in service and 4 of them are still being built. However a lot of them are flown single pilot. The 500 type covers a lot of airplanes as well, but none are in production anymore, so their numbers will continue to shrink.

+1 to the CE525 type, preferably CE525s.

EKU, you driving that CJ2 I've seen sitting in LEX?

MoZak18
06-29-2012, 03:45 PM
The fact that it is the single pilot type sounds discouraging in a way for a new pilot, seeing as if it is flown single pilot for an individual or company, only experience high-time pilots will be considered. Amidst this would you still recommend the 525? What would you say about the 560XL and 650 in comparison?

The Plainsman
06-29-2012, 03:50 PM
560xl and 650 would certainly give you more marketability, however a type rating with no time in type is a difficult position to put yourself in. just as a side, the LRJET type rating covers all 20's 30's (including the 31) and the 55.... the 45 is a different type as is the 60.

BoilerUP
06-29-2012, 04:15 PM
The fact that it is the single pilot type sounds discouraging in a way for a new pilot, seeing as if it is flown single pilot for an individual or company, only experience high-time pilots will be considered. Amidst this would you still recommend the 525? What would you say about the 560XL and 650 in comparison?

If I were a "new pilot", I wouldn't be worrying about type ratings and certainly wouldn't be thinking about buying one on my own nickel...ESPECIALLY in the current job market.

If you hold a CE525S rating, you can operate the airplane single pilot or two crew. If you hold a CE525 rating, you can only operate it crewed.

Both the CE560XL and CE650 type ratings cover a fairly limited number of airframes. The Excel will almost certainly be replaced by the Latitude and the CE650 has been out of production for many years. On the other hand the CJ2+/CJ3/CJ4 and the newly announced M2 will continue to be produced for many years and utilize the CE525 type rating.

MoZak18
06-29-2012, 05:16 PM
I've managed to get some turbine time over the past several months in a Lear 35, less than 100, but still something to show for. I actually won't be spending my own money on this type, and yes I agree, no one should do that (unless you're loaded and doing this for fun!). Since you say the M2 will also utilize the 525 type that does sound encouraging. Does the M2 relate to the Citation Mustang at all? In other words, is it like Cessna's sequel/upgrade to the Mustang and are there any similarities?

LOCO GRINGO
07-19-2012, 07:36 AM
i am curious as to how the citation type ratings work. What i mean by that is, what citation types count for what aircraft? For example with lears, an lr-jet type gives you all 20s, 30s, and 50s, with exception of the lear 31 (i may have missed a few but you get the idea). I am aware of the following citations: Citation bravo, citation excel, citation i/si, citation ii/sii, citation iii, citation ultra, citation vli, citation vl, citation v, and citation x. Do each of these aircraft require their own unique type and training or is there a mix and match like with the lears? Thanks for any and all responses.

try ac61-89e

IdahoFlyer
08-20-2012, 12:56 PM
The M2 is the Mustang 2. It looks as though the Cj1 program was just renamed the M2 as the M2 more closely resembles a CJ than it does the Mustang. I'd assume that's why the M2 will be covered by the 525 type, but that's just speculation.

BoilerUP
08-20-2012, 01:52 PM
The M2 is the Mustang 2. It looks as though the Cj1 program was just renamed the M2 as the M2 more closely resembles a CJ than it does the Mustang. I'd assume that's why the M2 will be covered by the 525 type, but that's just speculation.

M2 looks like a CJ because that's exactly what it is - basically a CJ1++.

G3000 cockpit vs. ProLine21, slightly uprated engines, and stubby little winglets.

Climbto450
08-20-2012, 03:05 PM
If I were a "new pilot", I wouldn't be worrying about type ratings and certainly wouldn't be thinking about buying one on my own nickel...ESPECIALLY in the current job market.

If you hold a CE525S rating, you can operate the airplane single pilot or two crew. If you hold a CE525 rating, you can only operate it crewed.

Both the CE560XL and CE650 type ratings cover a fairly limited number of airframes. The Excel will almost certainly be replaced by the Latitude and the CE650 has been out of production for many years. On the other hand the CJ2+/CJ3/CJ4 and the newly announced M2 will continue to be produced for many years and utilize the CE525 type rating.
Great advice, I never recommend someone buying a type. Most CPs I know frown upon it. Just my opinion!!

HuggyU2
03-27-2014, 07:32 PM
Just to confirm something...
The CE-525 rating will not include a rating in the CE-510/Mustang,... correct?

I ask because this AOPA article says it DOES. See the third paragraph:
What's your type? - AOPA (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2012/June/1/Whats-your-type.aspx)

Lucky8888
03-28-2014, 12:13 AM
Just to confirm something...
The CE-525 rating will not include a rating in the CE-510/Mustang,... correct?

I ask because this AOPA article says it DOES. See the third paragraph:
What's your type? - AOPA (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2012/June/1/Whats-your-type.aspx)

It does not. They are two separate ratings. You can see the newest FAA list here...http://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/?YouCantCacheThis=0.5

Convair5800
03-28-2014, 02:56 AM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's:

CE-500: I, II, V, Ultra, Bravo
CE-560: XLS
CE-650: III, VI, VII
CE-750: X
CE-680: Sovereign

I'm sure I'm missing some in there.

When I did my 650 at CAE, it was a course about the III with VII differences thrown in.

DirectTo,
Did you fly the 650 a lot? How did you like it? Our company owner is currently looking at a III & VII.
Thanks!
CV

Yabadaba
03-31-2014, 09:33 AM
Not directed at me, but I would encourage them to stay away from a 650. Cruise speed is great but that everything else would be a con. Legacy airplane so parts are a headache, usually has old avionics, poor TO performance and so-so range with thirsty engines.

People get sucked in by low initial cost but they become expensive. Guess if they know all of this and willing to deal with the flaws...

Oh, yeah... never buy a type. If they can afford a plane they can afford to pay for your training. If I see a type and no time in it the resume goes in the trash (unless its a 737!).

DirectTo
03-31-2014, 01:55 PM
Sorry Convair, just saw your post.

Yabadaba nailed it though. Great airplane 10-15 years ago but it's getting long in the tooth. You need a good sized runway to base it out of and some cheap fuel. Range is okay if you're based in the center of the country (we are). From the pilot perspective, performance is good and it's a nice flying bird. Avionics can vary of course.

I enjoyed flying it and the pax seemed to really enjoy it. I've no idea what they budgeted it for an hour, but I can likely find out if you're interested.

Convair5800
03-31-2014, 03:14 PM
Yabadaba & DirectTo,

Thanks for the info!

Our owner seems to be pretty set on putting in an offer on one and upgrading the avionics. We're based in SJU and would use it mostly for Medevacs, only organs, flights out to the mainland. Of course, try to market and sell it to the occasional pax charter.

Convair5800
03-31-2014, 03:17 PM
FSI is offering $15,800 per pilot & CAE $16,100, but will throw in the DO for free...so turns out cheaper.

Do either of you remember training cost from 10-15 years ago?

BoilerUP
03-31-2014, 03:18 PM
FSI cheaper than CAE?

That is surprising.

ClarenceOver
03-31-2014, 03:34 PM
FSI cheaper than CAE?

That is surprising.

Not really. I have seen both. CAE has a bit more quality and thoroughness put into their training. Not saying they are better but from a perspective of seeing the instructors, the classrooms, and the sims themselves CAE is slightly better. Not like it matters though. A type rating is a type rating is a type rating.

ClarenceOver
03-31-2014, 03:37 PM
Not directed at me, but I would encourage them to stay away from a 650. Cruise speed is great but that everything else would be a con. Legacy airplane so parts are a headache, usually has old avionics, poor TO performance and so-so range with thirsty engines.

People get sucked in by low initial cost but they become expensive. Guess if they know all of this and willing to deal with the flaws...

Oh, yeah... never buy a type. If they can afford a plane they can afford to pay for your training. If I see a type and no time in it the resume goes in the trash (unless its a 737!).

No go ahead and buy a type. If you are stupid enough to pay for one you deserve to lose that money anyway.

DirectTo
03-31-2014, 05:25 PM
FSI is offering $15,800 per pilot & CAE $16,100, but will throw in the DO for free...so turns out cheaper.

Do either of you remember training cost from 10-15 years ago?
Sorry, I never saw the bill for mine. The guy I was paired with (I went alone) had paid for his own for a job in SoCal and I think I remember him saying he paid 14,500. This was 6 years ago though. What CAE is offering seems like a good deal to me (I've always been partial to CAE over FSI).

Are you actually based at SJU or that smaller GA airport close by? Things to think about in the summer in a 650. :rolleyes:

I still have my digital CAE material - if you want any of it, just let me know.

Convair5800
03-31-2014, 06:23 PM
FSI cheaper than CAE?

That is surprising.

Yes, but we if the owner proceeds, we'd be sending 4 guys. CAE gives us the DO slot for free, so we'd only pay for 3.

Convair5800
03-31-2014, 06:29 PM
Not directed at me, but I would encourage them to stay away from a 650. Cruise speed is great but that everything else would be a con. Legacy airplane so parts are a headache, usually has old avionics, poor TO performance and so-so range with thirsty engines.

People get sucked in by low initial cost but they become expensive. Guess if they know all of this and willing to deal with the flaws...

Oh, yeah... never buy a type. If they can afford a plane they can afford to pay for your training. If I see a type and no time in it the resume goes in the trash (unless its a 737!).

No go ahead and buy a type. If you are stupid enough to pay for one you deserve to lose that money anyway.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I'm not buying or paying for anything ... Our company would pay for all the training...

Convair5800
03-31-2014, 06:34 PM
FSI is offering $15,800 per pilot & CAE $16,100, but will throw in the DO for free...so turns out cheaper.

Do either of you remember training cost from 10-15 years ago?
Sorry, I never saw the bill for mine. The guy I was paired with (I went alone) had paid for his own for a job in SoCal and I think I remember him saying he paid 14,500. This was 6 years ago though. What CAE is offering seems like a good deal to me (I've always been partial to CAE over FSI).

Are you actually based at SJU or that smaller GA airport close by? Things to think about in the summer in a 650. :rolleyes:

I still have my digital CAE material - if you want any of it, just let me know.

$14,500...not bad...better than 16k.

We're based in SJU / TJSJ, not Isla Grande.

Thanks for the offer! I may take you up on it...if anything moves forward with the deal.

ClarenceOver
03-31-2014, 06:58 PM
Not sure if this was directed at me, but I'm not buying or paying for anything ... Our company would pay for all the training...

It wasn't. I just dont understand people that will pay for a piece of plastic without having time in the airframe.

Convair5800
03-31-2014, 07:21 PM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Convair5800


Not sure if this was directed at me, but I'm not buying or paying for anything ... Our company would pay for all the training...




It wasn't. I just dont understand people that will pay for a piece of plastic without having time in the airframe.

You're preaching to the choir!

Duksrule
07-11-2014, 06:44 PM
Oh, yeah... never buy a type. If they can afford a plane they can afford to pay for your training. If I see a type and no time in it the resume goes in the trash (unless its a 737!).

With that said I am planning on knocking out my ATP and 737 type for free in September using the GI bill. Would it be a good idea to add a few words on my resume saying that it was paid for by GI bill or something so that they don't think South West is the only reason I got it? Truth is I wanted to get my ATP and since it is free using the GI bill why us a light twin when I can get a type and go through an airline style training for not much more.

Duksrule
07-11-2014, 06:45 PM
Added to get email notification

Aviator89
07-11-2014, 07:08 PM
M2 looks like a CJ because that's exactly what it is - basically a CJ1++.

G3000 cockpit vs. ProLine21, slightly uprated engines, and stubby little winglets.

It also cruises much, much faster. Over 400. Holds way more, and longer range. Mustang 1 was 340 i think. With full fuel it could only take about 400lbs of payload. M2 might be the same with full fuel, but can go much further. So with fuel for a 600nm or less trip it can carry a good 2 or more adults than the M1. (Weight depending of course)

Spud121
07-11-2014, 07:48 PM
With that said I am planning on knocking out my ATP and 737 type for free in September using the GI bill. Would it be a good idea to add a few words on my resume saying that it was paid for by GI bill or something so that they don't think South West is the only reason I got it? Truth is I wanted to get my ATP and since it is free using the GI bill why us a light twin when I can get a type and go through an airline style training for not much more.

I got my type in a CJ 525s in Carlsbad using the GI Bill. It was a very professional 10 day course. All I really wanted was to get my ATP but I'm glad I got the experience using a Flight Director and Auto Pilot. The timing was perfect as my son was born 2 days after my check ride. I did not want to leave town and wanted to get it done prior to leaving the military. That being said I have not yet flown the airplane. If I paid for the type out of my own pocket I would have been disappointed but I am glad I received some good training instead of just getting my ATP in a twin.

BoilerUP
07-12-2014, 02:58 AM
It also cruises much, much faster. Over 400. Holds way more, and longer range. Mustang 1 was 340 i think. With full fuel it could only take about 400lbs of payload. M2 might be the same with full fuel, but can go much further. So with fuel for a 600nm or less trip it can carry a good 2 or more adults than the M1. (Weight depending of course)

To be clear, the M2 is simply a warmed-over upgraded CJ1+, and a completely different airframe than the Mustang.

I'm really uncertain why Cessna went with the M2 moniker, considering it has nothing in common with the CE510.

Mink
07-12-2014, 08:53 AM
I got my type in a CJ 525s in Carlsbad using the GI Bill. It was a very professional 10 day course. All I really wanted was to get my ATP but I'm glad I got the experience using a Flight Director and Auto Pilot. The timing was perfect as my son was born 2 days after my check ride. I did not want to leave town and wanted to get it done prior to leaving the military. That being said I have not yet flown the airplane. If I paid for the type out of my own pocket I would have been disappointed but I am glad I received some good training instead of just getting my ATP in a twin.

I've done two 525 recurrents at ProFlite in Carlsbad. I'm a fan. (And for comparison, have done FSI and CAE courses as well - mixed reviews, depending on the course/aircraft.)

Duksrule
08-03-2014, 09:52 AM
It's no different than someone paying for a piece of plastic that says CFI on it so that they can work for crappy wages being a CFI building time. If someone wants to pay for a Type that will enable them to get a job somewhere then more power to them. No different than paying for a MBA to advance yourself or a 737 Type to get a job at SW. If you have the money to buy a type and that is what gets you the job then who is anyone to say that is a bad idea. Or you could be someone that has the GI bill or WIA money that will get you the type for free. My guess is that no one with a brain would tell someone flying for SW that they are an idiot for buying their own type.

Everyone has their own set of circumstances so to sit behind your computer screen and judge them is pretty sad.

Yabadaba
08-05-2014, 10:56 AM
In my opinion there is a big difference between post secondary education and airplane specific training. Nobody should question college but paying for training out of pocket creates a race to the bottom. If a company pays for an airplane they should pay for all crew costs and training.

I have worked to create a department where pilots are treated and paid well. They last thing I want to bring in is someone who is willing to undercut myself or anyone else by planting a seed in my CEO's ear it is OK for pilots to pay for their own training. I will do everything I can to avoid training contracts because we should be able to create an environment where people want to stay... and if they find something that betters their life or career I'm happy for them.

It doesn't take a genius to understand if someone probably got GI Bill assistance getting a type by looking at their resume or asking a few questions. I've met several people that just stopped by to drop off a resume and said they would buy their own type if needed to be hired. This is what needs to stop to better this profession for all pilots. These departments will never become a good place to work because owners will never stop thinking it is the pilots responsibility.

HuggyU2
09-03-2014, 10:55 PM
I just completed my CJ3 type rating today with ProFlight LLC in Carlsbad, CA.
I really enjoyed it.
Their online prep/study is an industry benchmark.
The instructors were outstanding. Lots of depth in their experience. Some older than me, some younger than me... all brought something different to the course, while maintaining standardization.
Two thumbs up.

Apparently, they are expanding into the Tampa area this year.

Bombinha
12-07-2017, 08:35 AM
In my opinion there is a big difference between post secondary education and airplane specific training. Nobody should question college but paying for training out of pocket creates a race to the bottom. If a company pays for an airplane they should pay for all crew costs and training.

I have worked to create a department where pilots are treated and paid well. They last thing I want to bring in is someone who is willing to undercut myself or anyone else by planting a seed in my CEO's ear it is OK for pilots to pay for their own training. I will do everything I can to avoid training contracts because we should be able to create an environment where people want to stay... and if they find something that betters their life or career I'm happy for them.

It doesn't take a genius to understand if someone probably got GI Bill assistance getting a type by looking at their resume or asking a few questions. I've met several people that just stopped by to drop off a resume and said they would buy their own type if needed to be hired. This is what needs to stop to better this profession for all pilots. These departments will never become a good place to work because owners will never stop thinking it is the pilots responsibility.


Who do you work for? are you guys hiring?