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ewr756drive
08-15-2012, 10:12 AM
APA Hotline, Aug 15

JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENTíS MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR managementís application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Laneís decision.

We regard AMRís intent to reject our contract as an admission of failureófailure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airlineís future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilotsí sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to todayís ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.


ewr756drive
08-15-2012, 10:13 AM
What now???

Puros
08-15-2012, 10:14 AM
Horton just stirred the hornet's nest- he's gonna get stung!


acl65pilot
08-15-2012, 10:15 AM
Did you guys actually get this in your e-mail in boxes? Seems like a template

Senior Skipper
08-15-2012, 10:17 AM
This is the same post from here

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/amr-bankruptcy/69392-aa-pilots-vote-reject-ta-61-no-31-yes-3.html#post1246016

There seems to be some doubt as to whether or not the judge has actually made his ruling.

acl65pilot
08-15-2012, 10:19 AM
There is NOTHING on the APA website. Last post was 0906 CDT this morning stated they expected a ruling this afternoon.

Pipic
08-15-2012, 10:28 AM
Strike Strike Strike........... Now is the time to show them that they cannot do this to your career. Let's do it team.

Flyby1206
08-15-2012, 11:14 AM
Strike Strike Strike........... Now is the time to show them that they cannot do this to your career. Let's do it team.

... if a strike is even allowed at this point. Uncharted territory my friends. Good luck.

7576FO
08-15-2012, 11:25 AM
3:25pm judge not ruled yet. Should be anytime now.

frmrdashtrash
08-15-2012, 11:35 AM
... if a strike is even allowed at this point. Uncharted territory my friends. Good luck.
I don't remember which airline's bankruptcy, but it was ruled that an 1113 abrogation was not grounds for a strike. Might be Mesaba's case. I imagine someone can enlighten.

Best of luck out there guys.

love2av8
08-15-2012, 11:57 AM
Not true. Just a canned press release that got leaked. He hasn't rules yet!

Flyby1206
08-15-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't remember which airline's bankruptcy, but it was ruled that an 1113 abrogation was not grounds for a strike. Might be Mesaba's case. I imagine someone can enlighten.

Best of luck out there guys.

I think the NWA FAs had an abrogation and tried to strike but it was deemed illegal.

ERJ135
08-15-2012, 12:18 PM
APA INFORMATION HOTLINE*****

************************************************** ***** This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with the APA Information Hotline for Wednesday, August 15.
JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENTíS MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR managementís application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

...Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Laneís decision.

We regard AMRís intent to reject our contract as an admission of failureófailure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airlineís future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilotsí sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to todayís ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.

sailingfun
08-15-2012, 12:46 PM
I don't remember which airline's bankruptcy, but it was ruled that an 1113 abrogation was not grounds for a strike. Might be Mesaba's case. I imagine someone can enlighten.

Best of luck out there guys.

The NW flight attendants were banned from striking after their 1113 motion. The lost all appeals to that ruling.

What
08-15-2012, 12:46 PM
APA INFORMATION HOTLINE*****

************************************************** ***** This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with the APA Information Hotline for Wednesday, August 15.
JUDGE SEAN LANE GRANTS AMR MANAGEMENTíS MOTION: United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling today that grants AMR managementís application for authority to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement.

...Your APA legal team is currently reviewing the document. Upon completion of our review, if appropriate we will file an appeal of Judge Laneís decision.

We regard AMRís intent to reject our contract as an admission of failureófailure to reach a mutually acceptable agreement with a vital employee group, and in a broader sense, failure to avoid bankruptcy and to present a credible vision for our airlineís future. Any future for this airline must include a consensual, industry-standard contract that properly recognizes our pilotsí sacrifices and our critical role in the operation of American Airlines.

Your APA leadership is exploring and pursuing all legal avenues in response to todayís ruling, including the pending appeal regarding the inapplicability of Section 1113 to the 2003 pilot collective bargaining agreement. Your APA leadership will issue a follow-up message later today.

Please review tye thread before posting, any questions refer to post #1. Have a great day!!!

Mesabah
08-15-2012, 12:54 PM
The NW flight attendants were banned from striking after their 1113 motion. The lost all appeals to that ruling.
Yep, and had they accepted the company's first offer, they would have wound up making more money than going through the rejection process. However, this case is different. Time will tell.

aeroergosum
08-15-2012, 12:57 PM
Judge Lane has not ruled on the 1113 rejection of APA CBA yet. The canned response was mistakenly transmitted this morning. NO RULING YET.

What
08-15-2012, 01:29 PM
Judge Lane has not ruled on the 1113 rejection of APA CBA yet. The canned response was mistakenly transmitted this morning. NO RULING YET.

This was posted on EL,

***Due to technical difficulties, a rough draft hotline was inadvertently transmitted to our membership in place of the hotline below. To be clear, the judge has not issued a ruling on AMR's request to reject our contract. If you received the draft hotline, please disregard and note that the correct hotline is shown below, and is also posted to alliedpilots.org.***

The hotline that was attached below is the one from 0906 ET!

The

DelDah Capt
08-15-2012, 01:44 PM
***Due to technical difficulties, a rough draft hotline was inadvertently transmitted to our membership in place of the hotline below. To be clear, the judge has not issued a ruling on AMR's request to reject our contract. If you received the draft hotline, please disregard and note that the correct hotline is shown below, and is also posted to alliedpilots.org.***


This is a major league gaffe on the part of the APA communications folks....something tells me they're in disarray over there.

LostInPA
08-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Right now on bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-15/amr-judge-refuses-to-let-airline-void-pilot-contract.html)

Judge refuses to reject AA pilot contract......

Hopefully that's for real

BSOuthisplace
08-15-2012, 02:10 PM
Or maybe APA is playing a little reverse psychology with the judge.

"They said I rejected the contracts? I'll show them!"

Seriously though, hope the above story turns out to be true though.

Outlaw2097
08-15-2012, 02:10 PM
Right now on bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-15/amr-judge-refuses-to-let-airline-void-pilot-contract.html)

Judge refuses to reject AA pilot contract......

Hopefully that's for real

Confirmed. Limited victory, but its better than getting nothing.

Judge Denies American Airlines Request to Reject Pilots Contract | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth (http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Judge-Denies-American-Airlines-Request-to-Reject-Pilots-Contract-166327766.html)

acl65pilot
08-15-2012, 02:14 PM
Congrats guys. One step at a time. I'm sure they will try again if they need to.

Flavio340
08-15-2012, 02:21 PM
Yes, thank you guys for making a stand!!!!

Flyby1206
08-15-2012, 02:35 PM
I think this is a HUGE win for APA! Keep pressing boys, got em on the run now

AmericanIdiot#1
08-15-2012, 02:36 PM
Awesome news!

DelDah Capt
08-15-2012, 02:39 PM
...A quick update on the Reuters Story (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/15/amr-labor-idUSL2E8JFHWN20120815?feedType=RSS&feedName=marketsNews&rpc=43) that details the Judge's thinking behind his ruling as well as AMRs plans to rewrite the motion request and have the Judge rule again:



In a written ruling in U.S. bankruptcy court in Manhattan, Judge Sean Lane, who is overseeing AMR's restructuring, turned down American's motion in part because it would give the carrier unfettered ability to furlough pilots and engage in codesharing.

AMR said it would alter its motion and resubmit the request to terminate its agreements with the Allied Pilots Association union by Friday.

"We will ask Judge Lane to consider our request expeditiously," American said in its statement

cactiboss
08-15-2012, 02:50 PM
Wow just wow. Congratulations American pilots this is unprecedented, and the rank and file deserves recognition. How Horton can continue this charade is beyond me.

sailingfun
08-15-2012, 02:51 PM
I think this is a HUGE win for APA! Keep pressing boys, got em on the run now

I am not sure I would call it a huge win. The judge is asking AMR to change two areas where the company requested unrestricted ability to do anything they want. He wants some limits on those two areas and then intends to impose the contract.

LittleBoyBlew
08-15-2012, 02:57 PM
Congratz AA pilots!! Truly a Victory for ALL pilots. Fight the good fight..:D

What
08-15-2012, 03:06 PM
Congratz AA pilots!! Truly a Victory for ALL pilots. Fight the good fight..:D

This is more than just a win for all pilots, the rest of the AMR work groups have a "me too" clause that is any other workgroup receives a better deal (less than 17% cuts) they will reek the benefits as well.

cactusmike
08-15-2012, 03:08 PM
It is a victory for labor because this is the first time a judge has actually held management accountable for their plan of reorganization. Horton's plan did not pass the smell test. Another blow to AMR management.

Flyby1206
08-15-2012, 03:12 PM
I am not sure I would call it a huge win. The judge is asking AMR to change two areas where the company requested unrestricted ability to do anything they want. He wants some limits on those two areas and then intends to impose the contract.

Here is a link to the filing if anyone wants to read through it:
http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/4044_15463.pdf

After reading through a good chunk of the 111 pages it seems the judge believes abrogation is necessary for AA, but not under the current term sheet plan. Like you said, if they fix the furlough and codesharing sections so they have some limits then it has a good chance of passing.

Still, like cactusmike said, this is a good win for the industry because management is being held accountable for their plan of reorganization and BK isnt a card to be used for whatever the company wants without and pushback.

Phuz
08-15-2012, 03:14 PM
Moderators seriously need to edit this post or lock it. They lock and move threads for so many petty reasons and when factually inaccurate headlines and misleading/fake press releases are allowed to remain the credibility of everything posted here declines. ****.

gloopy
08-15-2012, 03:17 PM
Here is a link to the filing if anyone wants to read through it:
http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/4044_15463.pdf

After reading through a good chunk of the 111 pages it seems the judge believes abrogation is necessary for AA, but not under the current term sheet plan. Like you said, if they fix the furlough and codesharing sections so they have some limits then it has a good chance of passing.

Still, like cactusmike said, this is a good win for the industry because management is being held accountable for their plan of reorganization and BK isnt a card to be used for whatever the company wants without and pushback.

WRT "furloughing and code sharing" that's really scope. Hopefully management's insane plans for massive E190 ULRJ "ultra large RJ" sized code share at the bottom feeders is squashed permanently, as is their idiotic JB/AS role as a massive American Connection.

What
08-15-2012, 03:17 PM
Moderators seriously need to edit this post or lock it. They lock and move threads for so many petty reasons and when factually inaccurate headlines and misleading/fake press releases are allowed to remain the credibility of everything posted here declines. ****.

APA owned up to their mistake, APA communications is who made the mistake. I agree that the title should be updated but this wasn't people making rumors.

Phuz
08-15-2012, 03:18 PM
APA owned up to their mistake, APA communications is who made the mistake. I agree that the title should be updated but this wasn't people making rumors.

Agreed. Did not state otherwise.

R57 relay
08-15-2012, 03:26 PM
Congrats AA pilots!

DelDah Capt
08-15-2012, 03:32 PM
From the Ruling:


The Court concludes that Americanís proposed changes to furlough and codesharing have not been justified by either reference to the Business Plan or the practices of Americanís competitors. Given the significance of these two provisions collectively to Americanís proposal, the Court finds that American has not shown that the proposal is necessary as required by Section 1113. For the reasons set forth above, therefore, Americanís Motion to reject the collective bargaining agreements of the APA is denied. This denial is without prejudice to remedying the two defects identified in this Opinion and submitting a new application under Section 1113. Debtorsí counsel shall settle an order on three daysí notice.

aa73
08-15-2012, 03:40 PM
Temporary victory.... battle's not even close to being won yet. They will re-submit by Friday and it will most likely pass. Still feels good though!

buddies8
08-15-2012, 03:45 PM
KUDOS APA pilots.

Crazy Canuck
08-15-2012, 03:47 PM
Fannnntastic!! Even if this thing does ultimately pass, hopefully this will at least protect some of the interests of AA pilots. Keep fighting friends!

DelDah Capt
08-15-2012, 03:49 PM
WRT "furloughing and code sharing" that's really scope. Hopefully management's insane plans for massive E190 ULRJ "ultra large RJ" sized code share at the bottom feeders is squashed permanently, as is their idiotic JB/AS role as a massive American Connection.

gloopy,

The Judges objections to AMR's motion were specific to Furloughs and Codeshare. He felt that while AMR's business plan required increased Codesharing, the Debtor's motion essentially had no limits on codeshare and needed to be tightened up.


On the other hand, the Judge was absolutely fine with AMR's proposals concerning increased use of Regional jets both in terms of numbers of airframes allowed and the number of seats (up to 88). His discussion of RJs begins on page 58 and concludes with this statement regarding the need for RJs up to 88 seats:


Consistent with the trend in the industry, however, the Court concludes that American needs to use such jets to both compete with its peers in terms of matching market size and to generate additional revenue. The Court finds, therefore, that American has shown that the request in the March 21 Proposal is reasonable and necessary

And this statement regarding the the proposed number of airframes in the 'greater than 51 to 88 seat range':



The Court finds that the information in the Business Plan on regional jets is in line with American’s regional jet “ask” in the March 21 Proposal, which caps the number of aircraft at the 51 to 88 seat range at the larger of 255 or 50% of the total number of mainline aircraft in use at the time. The request for 255 regional aircraft is very much in line with the projected need in the Business Plan

full of luv
08-15-2012, 03:51 PM
Congratz AA pilots!! Truly a Victory for ALL pilots. Fight the good fight..:D

This is more than just a win for all pilots, the rest of the AMR work groups have a "me too" clause that is any other workgroup receives a better deal (less than 17% cuts) they will reek the benefits as well.

Although their contracts probably stink I'm sure you meant reap. Anyway more impetus for mgmt to get back to court right away.

friendlyskies
08-15-2012, 03:55 PM
This is a huge victory for the scope issue alone! Unlimited domestic codesharing as proposed by AA would forever prevent any chance of growth at AA. These pilots voted very wisely and have won a huge victory even if the rest of the contract is abrogated, as I assume it will.

ewr756drive
08-15-2012, 04:13 PM
Sorry everyone.... I thought original post was legit. I am so happy for the AA guys!!

LeeFXDWG
08-15-2012, 04:27 PM
Temporary victory.... battle's not even close to being won yet. They will re-submit by Friday and it will most likely pass. Still feels good though!

And the APA legal team should counter with the fact that although the TA wasn't passed, the company should be required to only be able to enact its last/best offer to the union since it was economically sound in their mind. I have no idea of what the original term sheet said, but feel that the TA is where the judge should allow the abrogation of the contract to go to. Then the AA pilots get the offer they turned down and immediately enter section 6 the day AA exits.

The fact the 1113c motion was denied for cause is excellent precedent for the future. And, IMO, the required negotiating under the code should be enough ammunition for the APA legal team to get the judge to enact that as a court ordered limit to the abrogation.

My 2 legal cents. Good luck AMR guys/gals.

Lee

Mesabah
08-15-2012, 04:35 PM
Wow, I thought the judge would deny the small jet scope as well as the code sharing scope. He separated the two issues, which is improper considering they are both the same thing. This fight might get harder, however, the most important thing to note is that AMR can not operate 1 single new RJ until an agreement is inked. You may need to take it to an appellate judge who is familiar with labor law as this judge obviously is not.

DON'T STOP FIGHTING!

LittleBoyBlew
08-15-2012, 04:37 PM
And the APA legal team should counter with the fact that although the TA wasn't passed, the company should be required to only be able to enact its last/best offer to the union since it was economically sound in their mind. I have no idea of what the original term sheet said, but feel that the TA is where the judge should allow the abrogation of the contract to go to. Then the AA pilots get the offer they turned down and immediately enter section 6 the day AA exits.

The fact the 1113c motion was denied for cause is excellent precedent for the future. And, IMO, the required negotiating under the code should be enough ammunition for the APA legal team to get the judge to enact that as a court ordered limit to the abrogation.

My 2 legal cents. Good luck AMR guys/gals.

Lee
Agree completely!! The last TA should be the NEW baseline. AMR proves by admission, that the new agreement/failed TA would allow it to remain solvent. Anything less is an attempt to garner uncompetitive advantages over the industry.

Flyby1206
08-15-2012, 04:38 PM
Wow, I thought the judge would deny the small jet scope as well as the code sharing scope. He separated the two issues, which is improper considering they are both the same thing. This fight might get harder, however, the most important thing to note is that AMR can not operate 1 single new RJ until an agreement is inked. You may need to take it to an appellate judge who is familiar with labor law as this judge obviously is not.

DON'T STOP FIGHTING!

I agree, and was thinking the 88-seat provision would get shot down because nobody really operates 88-set RJs

tsquare
08-15-2012, 04:51 PM
I think this is a HUGE win for APA! Keep pressing boys, got em on the run now

Huge WIN? Really?

Mesabah
08-15-2012, 04:56 PM
Huge WIN? Really?
Yes it is; It's the start of a real union working together.

galaxy flyer
08-15-2012, 05:06 PM
Before it's a huge win, might wait for the final ruling after AMR makes the judge's requested changes. IF the judge allows his RJ comments to stand, it might be a huge loss.

GF

Mesabah
08-15-2012, 05:14 PM
Before it's a huge win, might wait for the final ruling after AMR makes the judge's requested changes. IF the judge allows his RJ comments to stand, it might be a huge loss.

GF
Not so, in the Mile Hi Steel corp bankruptcy case, the bankruptcy judge abrogated their entire scope contract, however that decision was overturned in the court of appeals. A bankruptcy judge does not have the power to allow management to deny union representation to a certain part of the labor force(outsourcing of RJs). That power lies only with the pilots of AA or Congress to change the law. Since bankruptcy is a very complicated area of law practice, bankruptcy judges are not fully aware of their power in respect to other areas of the law.

Another thing to consider is that if AMR is granted the power to fly 88 seats by judge Lane, they can only fly them during the bankruptcy and must park them after AMR emerges. So obviously, AMR will not operate any new RJ's until the APA pilots allow them to with a specific scope carve out.

sailingfun
08-15-2012, 05:56 PM
Yes it is; It's the start of a real union working together.

I am not sure if your mocking the American pilots or what. I would however suggest you at least read the judges ruling. Its a slam dunk win for management in almost every aspect. The ruling is available online. Its a very ugly day for the American pilots and all pilots and your mockery is not required or desired.

sailingfun
08-15-2012, 05:57 PM
Not so, in the Mile Hi Steel corp bankruptcy case, the bankruptcy judge abrogated their entire scope contract, however that decision was overturned in the court of appeals. A bankruptcy judge does not have the power to allow management to deny union representation to a certain part of the labor force(outsourcing of RJs). That power lies only with the pilots of AA or Congress to change the law. Since bankruptcy is a very complicated area of law practice, bankruptcy judges are not fully aware of their power in respect to other areas of the law.

Another thing to consider is that if AMR is granted the power to fly 88 seats by judge Lane, they can only fly them during the bankruptcy and must park them after AMR emerges. So obviously, AMR will not operate any new RJ's until the APA pilots allow them to with a specific scope carve out.

You should also read the ruling.

hockeypilot44
08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
Whatever happens, I respect the American pilots. They are picking a different route then everyone else took. I really hope it works out for them and our profession. It seems to me, they are doing everything they can to protect what they have.

Mesabah
08-15-2012, 06:43 PM
You should also read the ruling.I read it, and this line was particularly interesting:
Specifically, smaller regional jets of 50 seats or less are not fuel efficient and are no longer manufactured due to a lack of commercial viability. (Newgren Decl. ∂ 56–57; Glass Decl. ∂73; Trial Tr. 88:13–
89:14, May 21, 2012 (Kasper)). Additionally, these smaller regional jets have a much more
limited range and cannot be used for certain city-pairs that could be served by larger regional
jets. (Newgren Decl. ∂ 56). Smaller regional jets also cannot be configured to offer the type of
two-class service that generally attracts the “high value” customers that Delta seeks.

aa73
08-15-2012, 06:43 PM
In a nutshell: we have elected to stand up to management's (and previous managements) "carte blanche" to totally decimate every facet of pilot contracts using the BK trump card.

So far, we have won a couple of victories. We are under no illusions whatsoever that the court almost always favors management in BK cases. This will probably happen to us as well. But at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence.

At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.

As opposed to voting Yes on the industry's WORST most concessionary contract ever locked in for 10 years. Almost everyone saw how overreaching it was.

For those of you who thought we should have voted Yes, it begs the question: How bad does a TA have to be in order for you to vote No? For some of you, it's an irrelevant question: your answer would be, "It doesn't matter, you are in BK, you HAVE to take whatever deal they give you."

The above sentence, my friends, is why this profession is in the toilet.

We just took a stand against that.

Signed, a proud AA Pilot
73

alfaromeo
08-15-2012, 07:00 PM
You should also read the ruling.

Where did you find it?

uaav8r
08-15-2012, 07:10 PM
In a nutshell: we have elected to stand up to management's (and previous managements) "carte blanche" to totally decimate every facet of pilot contracts using the BK trump card.

So far, we have won a couple of victories. We are under no illusions whatsoever that the court almost always favors management in BK cases. This will probably happen to us as well. But at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence.

At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.

As opposed to voting Yes on the industry's WORST most concessionary contract ever locked in for 10 years. Almost everyone saw how overreaching it was.

For those of you who thought we should have voted Yes, it begs the question: How bad does a TA have to be in order for you to vote No? For some of you, it's an irrelevant question: your answer would be, "It doesn't matter, you are in BK, you HAVE to take whatever deal they give you."

The above sentence, my friends, is why this profession is in the toilet.

We just took a stand against that.

Signed, a proud AA Pilot
73

Very accurate assessment aa73. I am impressed with the stand your group took and wish you the best. I think you are correct, opening section 6 at bankruptcy exit is better than agreeing to an unacceptable TA for that many years. When our group (UAL) was faced with the 1113C process we agreed to some real P.O.S. terms and now here we are years later still suffering the consequences. Good luck.

buddies8
08-15-2012, 07:15 PM
Here is the judges ruling

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/4044_15463.pdf

tennesseeflyboy
08-15-2012, 07:27 PM
Show up to work and don't start the engines ........... You guys and gals can screw the system for good but you have to do this as one .......... When the PATCO air traffic controllers went on strike back in 1981 , they were defeated because fellow controllers crossed the picket lines ........... Unity is key , others will follow and support you ............God Bless all of you for what you bring to the table despite a company that uses and abuses it's own people ............. Good Luck and stay tight together ..............

Check Essential
08-15-2012, 07:33 PM
At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.



Excellent post aa73.
Except I would bet you'll be negotiating even before BK exit or merger.

There are significant benefits to having an open contract. It gives you much greater continued leverage in the remainder of the process. Whether it is AA emerging from bankruptcy as a stand alone company or merging while still under court protection, management will not want the uncertainty of an open pilot contract the day they walk out of court.

Lenders and investors do not like uncertainty and loose ends. They want to know what the company's costs are going to be before they commit their money. To be sure, the 1113 terms are harsh for now but the American pilots will retain a lot more control over their long term fate by having their contract rejected rather than agreeing to that 10 year deal.

I'm sure the usual ALPA suspects will be along momentarily to tell you why this is a disaster and you should have cooperated with management at all costs but I think you've done the right thing.

blackjack21
08-15-2012, 09:44 PM
The NW flight attendants were banned from striking after their 1113 motion. The lost all appeals to that ruling.

so what, wildcat it, the threat alone is enough to force the creditors to bypass horton

sailingfun
08-16-2012, 02:53 AM
so what, wildcat it, the threat alone is enough to force the creditors to bypass horton

You can wildcat it. The union more then likely ends at the point however. They will be shut down by the NMB. How you restructure and organize becomes difficult but perhaps not impossible. The fines and financial burden will be large but I don't know if it would carry over to individual pilots or stay with the defunct union.

Ball Breaker
08-16-2012, 04:22 AM
In a nutshell: we have elected to stand up to management's (and previous managements) "carte blanche" to totally decimate every facet of pilot contracts using the BK trump card.

So far, we have won a couple of victories. We are under no illusions whatsoever that the court almost always favors management in BK cases. This will probably happen to us as well. But at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence.

At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.

As opposed to voting Yes on the industry's WORST most concessionary contract ever locked in for 10 years. Almost everyone saw how overreaching it was.

For those of you who thought we should have voted Yes, it begs the question: How bad does a TA have to be in order for you to vote No? For some of you, it's an irrelevant question: your answer would be, "It doesn't matter, you are in BK, you HAVE to take whatever deal they give you."

The above sentence, my friends, is why this profession is in the toilet.

We just took a stand against that.

Signed, a proud AA Pilot
73

73-
Outstanding post! Sadly, with respect to the red section, there are many sackless folks who will vote yes for anything out of fear. You're right, this may bring on worse pain in the near term (not sure how much worse it can get for a mainline contract). At least you have leverage left to negotiate something you can live with over the next several years. Had you voted it in, options would be very limited and you'd have a very PO'd group for many years and all you'd hear is "a contract is a contract--live with it"

ForeverFO
08-16-2012, 04:30 AM
Here's what I'm taking away from all this...

It's like two boxers in round one. Boxer "A" is expected to whale the tar our of Boxer "B" and win by KO in round one. Round 1 just ended, and both fighters are a bit bloody, but Boxer B is doing fine, to everyone's surprise. We've survived, maybe even won a small victory, but it isn't over, not even close.

The Judge's ruling is a sort of indicator as to what will be acceptable or not to him, while AMR is BK. I wish he would have spanked management publicly, but that is not the case, nor could it be expected.

We may very well see a nasty set of work rules, some sort of modified term sheet, be imposed in the near future. If that is the case, then under the RLA, there is little we can do in terms of job actions as a union. But there is MUCH we can do as individuals. We all know what that is. Fly under the FAR's, have those rules as a support structure, so as to avoid individual sanction.

There isn't a walkaround at a remote Caribbean turn station without maintenance that an FO couldn't find something; a nicked compressor blade, a suspicious leak, a worn tire. He is doing his duty per the FAR's. "No fault go-arounds" anybody?

The nuclear option - dissolve the APA. Then, simply don't show up to work. There is no union to sanction, no union personnel to toss into jail as hostages. We'd be 8,000 individual contractors withholding services.

tbjav8r
08-16-2012, 04:33 AM
Intgeresting article as it relates to the scope arguement.
Hot Off the Runway - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2121069,00.html)

DeadHead
08-16-2012, 04:47 AM
In a nutshell: we have elected to stand up to management's (and previous managements) "carte blanche" to totally decimate every facet of pilot contracts using the BK trump card.

So far, we have won a couple of victories. We are under no illusions whatsoever that the court almost always favors management in BK cases. This will probably happen to us as well. But at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence.

At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.

As opposed to voting Yes on the industry's WORST most concessionary contract ever locked in for 10 years. Almost everyone saw how overreaching it was.

For those of you who thought we should have voted Yes, it begs the question: How bad does a TA have to be in order for you to vote No? For some of you, it's an irrelevant question: your answer would be, "It doesn't matter, you are in BK, you HAVE to take whatever deal they give you."

The above sentence, my friends, is why this profession is in the toilet.

We just took a stand against that.

Signed, a proud AA Pilot
73

Well said.....

dvhighdrive88
08-16-2012, 05:14 AM
Intgeresting article as it relates to the scope arguement.
Hot Off the Runway - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2121069,00.html)

Post whole article please. Not all of us are rich AA guys who can afford time! ;)

galaxy flyer
08-16-2012, 05:49 AM
No, but you must be a Time subscriber to read the article.

GF

gloopy
08-16-2012, 06:47 AM
Not so, in the Mile Hi Steel corp bankruptcy case, the bankruptcy judge abrogated their entire scope contract, however that decision was overturned in the court of appeals. A bankruptcy judge does not have the power to allow management to deny union representation to a certain part of the labor force(outsourcing of RJs). That power lies only with the pilots of AA or Congress to change the law. Since bankruptcy is a very complicated area of law practice, bankruptcy judges are not fully aware of their power in respect to other areas of the law.

Another thing to consider is that if AMR is granted the power to fly 88 seats by judge Lane, they can only fly them during the bankruptcy and must park them after AMR emerges. So obviously, AMR will not operate any new RJ's until the APA pilots allow them to with a specific scope carve out.

If this is true, but management signs 15 year deals with trillion dollar penalties for early withdrawl and then squeals about how they can't park them, what happens next?

BTW I'd make them do it anyway.

Mesabah
08-16-2012, 07:04 AM
If this is true, but management signs 15 year deals with trillion dollar penalties for early withdrawl and then squeals about how they can't park them, what happens next?

BTW I'd make them do it anyway.
Well, I guess I misspoke on that last post, they wouldn't be forced to park the jets, however, the pilots would be required by law to be APA pilots on the mainline seniority list under the mainline CBA.

The bankruptcy judge can't decide who is represented under a CBA, he can only decided how much someone should be paid under a rejected CBA. This judge has over stepped his own powers. An appellate judge will have to be brought in on this one to overturn the ruling. In fact this has a very strong possibility of reaching the Supreme Court if APA continues fighting.

hockeypilot44
08-16-2012, 07:33 AM
Well, I guess I misspoke on that last post, they wouldn't be forced to park the jets, however, the pilots would be required by law to be APA pilots on the mainline seniority list under the mainline CBA.

The bankruptcy judge can't decide who is represented under a CBA, he can only decided how much someone should be paid under a rejected CBA. This judge has over stepped his own powers. An appellate judge will have to be brought in on this one to overturn the ruling. In fact this has a very strong possibility of reaching the Supreme Court if APA continues fighting.

I don't know if you're right, but I hope you are.

Mesabah
08-16-2012, 07:41 AM
I don't know if you're right, but I hope you are.It's been tested somewhat, however, the company went under before it reached that level.

gloopy
08-16-2012, 08:36 AM
Well, I guess I misspoke on that last post, they wouldn't be forced to park the jets, however, the pilots would be required by law to be APA pilots on the mainline seniority list under the mainline CBA.

The bankruptcy judge can't decide who is represented under a CBA, he can only decided how much someone should be paid under a rejected CBA. This judge has over stepped his own powers. An appellate judge will have to be brought in on this one to overturn the ruling. In fact this has a very strong possibility of reaching the Supreme Court if APA continues fighting.

That's how I understand it as well. But my point is the second AMR can do it, they will sign long term iron clad agreements with third party fake labor busting "airlines" that they can't get out of and that includes who flies them, because those third party airlines will have contracts that specify their labor gets to do the flying. To throw that out would require complete abrogation of the entire third party contract including lessors and manufacturers if necessary unless the APA agreed with AMR to fly them in house.

Even then it would require the abrogation of the third party contracts because the lessor and manufacturer portions will all be predicated on the third party's original contract in the first place. It would be a multi-billion dollar contract cancellation that would give labor more leverage than almost anything. Borderling strike like without the strike. I'd love to see it, but will it happen?

Hopefully that happens though. Thankfully for them they are an independant union with no DFR nonsense as everyone sues to do another group's flying (and yes, it belongs to APA).

Mesabah
08-16-2012, 09:02 AM
That's how I understand it as well. But my point is the second AMR can do it, they will sign long term iron clad agreements with third party fake labor busting "airlines" that they can't get out of and that includes who flies them, because those third party airlines will have contracts that specify their labor gets to do the flying. To throw that out would require complete abrogation of the entire third party contract including lessors and manufacturers if necessary unless the APA agreed with AMR to fly them in house.

Even then it would require the abrogation of the third party contracts because the lessor and manufacturer portions will all be predicated on the third party's original contract in the first place. It would be a multi-billion dollar contract cancellation that would give labor more leverage than almost anything. Borderling strike like without the strike. I'd love to see it, but will it happen?

Hopefully that happens though. Thankfully for them they are an independant union with no DFR nonsense as everyone sues to do another group's flying (and yes, it belongs to APA).
That's very possible, but if I were a third party or a bank, there is no way I would finance or deal with AMR until a contract is inked. That's because if an appeals judge or the supreme court rules in favor of APA, those contracts are null and void.

hockeypilot44
08-16-2012, 10:44 AM
APA's job should be to make sure everyone knows these contracts can be thrown out before they are signed.

nwa757
08-17-2012, 09:33 PM
Huge WIN? Really?

This is strange... a DAL pilot (who just set the gold standard in pattern bargaining with 76 seat outsourcing) criticizing a standup American Pilot group....

Help me understand? They are standing up for scope while the leader (DAL) just agreed to allow a bunch more jumbo RJs?

Mink
08-17-2012, 10:00 PM
This is strange... a DAL pilot (who just set the gold standard in pattern bargaining with 76 seat outsourcing) criticizing a standup American Pilot group....

Help me understand? They are standing up for scope while the leader (DAL) just agreed to allow a bunch more jumbo RJs?

My thoughts exactly.

tsquare
08-18-2012, 04:06 AM
This is strange... a DAL pilot (who just set the gold standard in pattern bargaining with 76 seat outsourcing) criticizing a standup American Pilot group....

Help me understand? They are standing up for scope while the leader (DAL) just agreed to allow a bunch more jumbo RJs?

My thoughts exactly.

Have you guys actually read the ruling?

So let me ask you this: How do you think this is gonna turn out for them if they don't get AMR back to the table? IF they can get the company back to the table....

aa73
08-18-2012, 04:31 AM
Have you guys actually read the ruling?

So let me ask you this: How do you think this is gonna turn out for them if they don't get AMR back to the table? IF they can get the company back to the table....

Tsquare,

You seem to not be able to comprehend that AMR **needs** inked contracts to pull off whatever they want to pull off. Otherwise their ability to secure any kind of financing/outside investors will be severely limited, and expensive.

Yes, they can exit BK without contracts and some kind of 1113 in place. Then what? Back to the Negitiating table with THE MOST ****ed off pilot group in history. How's that new AA rebranding going?

Look, the UCC is getting ticked off at ToHo and his inability to close a deal with the employees. So is the judge. They WANT contracts prior to exiting.

Do you realize just what kind of leverage we have?

AMR testified IN COURT to "kicking the can down the road" for six years of negotiations. We're just playing their game now.

We get an 1113? Big deal. Right back into negotiations upon exit for an ILC. And I dont need to remind you how things will go if the 1113 is imposed. Nothing illegal, mind you.

Short term pain for long term gain. AA pilots are fed up and fighting back as strongly as we can.

The Chow
08-18-2012, 04:44 AM
aa73,

Any guess on retirements for September?

TC

aa73
08-18-2012, 04:54 AM
TC, my guess is a very small #... right now the guys close to punching out are waiting to see what happens with regards to freeze or termination.

What
08-18-2012, 05:55 AM
TC, my guess is a very small #... right now the guys close to punching out are waiting to see what happens with regards to freeze or termination.

Not to mention milking the cow for all it's worth, as they should!

tim123
08-18-2012, 07:51 AM
This is strange... a DAL pilot (who just set the gold standard in pattern bargaining with 76 seat outsourcing) criticizing a standup American Pilot group....

Help me understand? They are standing up for scope while the leader (DAL) just agreed to allow a bunch more jumbo RJs?
Not just tsquare....did you see alfaromeo is at it under the what's new thread?I agree with you nwa I just don't get it either.

nwa757
08-18-2012, 08:27 AM
Have you guys actually read the ruling?

So let me ask you this: How do you think this is gonna turn out for them if they don't get AMR back to the table? IF they can get the company back to the table....

I don't need to read the ruling to understand that DAL is the king of outsourcing. AMR pilots are trying to draw a line in the sand with large RJs, but this is difficult to do when the industry standard (just set by DAL pilots while turning a profit) is to outsource boatloads of 80,000lb jets for payraises.

How are UAL or AMR pilots able to get the NMB or BK judges on their side when "Deltas doing it too!?"

eaglefly
08-18-2012, 10:09 AM
I don't need to read the ruling to understand that DAL is the king of outsourcing. AMR pilots are trying to draw a line in the sand with large RJs, but this is difficult to do when the industry standard (just set by DAL pilots while turning a profit) is to outsource boatloads of 80,000lb jets for payraises.

How are UAL or AMR pilots able to get the NMB or BK judges on their side when "Deltas doing it too!?"

Believe me, Judge Lane is NOT on our side. Many large RJ's are coming to AA/One World.

tsquare
08-18-2012, 11:30 AM
I don't need to read the ruling

Speaks volumes. Ignorance truly must be bliss.

tsquare
08-18-2012, 11:34 AM
Believe me, Judge Lane is NOT on our side. Many large RJ's are coming to AA/One World.


You are absolutely right. It wasn't until practically the last page of the ruling that I thought APA had any chance. Every... single... argument that the APA made was rejected. Their witnesses were weak (according to the judge), and admitted key points that lead the judge to say that the merits of AMR's arguments lead him to conclude that termination of the contracts was warranted. They overreached on furlough and codeshare. Like someone else stated in another thread, the judge told AMR how to get an "A" paper, and gave them time to resubmit. I hope you can get them back to the table before he rules again.

alfaromeo
08-18-2012, 11:44 AM
I don't need to read the ruling

"I prefer to make all my decisions in life based on my dreams and fantasies about how the world will be if everyone does exactly what I say. Reality, I don't need no stinkin' reality, I can hurl insults on a webboard so I am invincible."

eaglefly
08-19-2012, 10:54 AM
You are absolutely right. It wasn't until practically the last page of the ruling that I thought APA had any chance. Every... single... argument that the APA made was rejected. Their witnesses were weak (according to the judge), and admitted key points that lead the judge to say that the merits of AMR's arguments lead him to conclude that termination of the contracts was warranted. They overreached on furlough and codeshare. Like someone else stated in another thread, the judge told AMR how to get an "A" paper, and gave them time to resubmit. I hope you can get them back to the table before he rules again.

I'd rather exist under an 1113 until we exit BK and THEN square off again vs. living on my knees for a decade under that TA. In fact, I'd prefer to do other things on furlough vs. a warmed over version of that TA. The question is if the debtor can even be awarded the winning POR without a pilots CBA ?

We shall see.

The judge is in the creditors pocket and "his" ruling comments aren't a sterile and accurate description of the arguments, only HIS justifications for siding with the debtor (which is a 100% given). According to many present during the hearings, the testimony of many witnesses for the debtor (one management crony especially) were nothing short of spectacularly embarrassing.

If it does turn out the debtor can exit BK with a stand alone POR without a pilots contract, at that point Judge Lane is irrelevant. Of course, IMO I don't think that's a good situation for creditors or financiers to be in.

No later then May 2013 and my, what an interesting summer that could be at AA, eh ?

ForeverFO
08-19-2012, 11:16 AM
I'm simply shocked at the number of "pilots" here who would see us cave to a horrendous TA for 6 to 10 years vs. fighting for the profession.

Every junk contract signed by a major pilot groups simply drags everyone else down. Delta Management in 2016: "Times are tough. Fuel is expensive. We need to compensate you like AMR does to their pilots if we want any chance of competing successfully."

Is that the sort of garbage people are looking for? Unbelievable.

Are people saying this is unwinnable by the pilots? We should roll over and let them disembowel us?

eaglefly
08-19-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm simply shockedA at the number of "pilots" here who would see us cave to a horrendous TA for 6 to 10 years vs. fighting for the profession.

Every junk contract signed by a major pilot groups simply drags everyone else down. Delta Management in 2016: "Times are tough. Fuel is expensive. We need to compensate you like AMR does to their pilots if we want any chance of competing successfully."

Is that the sort of garbage people are looking for? Unbelievable.

Are people saying this is unwinnable by the pilots? We should roll over and let them disembowel us?

Airlinii Pilotus can be an unpredictable creature indeed. Never before in history has any other species so consistently worked against its own interests. It's the primary reason its principle foe Executivus Parasitium has conquered it so consistently.

Even in this battle, Airlinii will not prevail and can only hope to mitigate the degree of loss, which is the best victory possible. Many of the tender young Airlinii's now blossoming actually hope for failure here in the hope of ravenously feeding on a fast meal of shiny RJ's oblivious to the ultimately fatal results of that meal to the quality of their longevity, yet ravenously feed on the carcasses of their brethren they will.

bcrosier
08-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Every junk contract signed by a major pilot groups simply drags everyone else down. Delta Management in 2016: "Times are tough. Fuel is expensive. We need to compensate you like AMR does to their pilots if we want any chance of competing successfully."

Is that the sort of garbage people are looking for? Unbelievable.

Are people saying this is unwinnable by the pilots? We should roll over and let them disembowel us?

I for one am proud of the AA pilots for drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cave in at the first opportunity. If another group had grown a set years ago, we might not all be in this mess - but we are where we are, at least the pilots of AA are trying to make a difference.

Unlike the poor fools at DelTaco - they gave up even more scope, and actually seem to believe that management won't be back in a few years with another sob story about how they need more 70 seat RJ's (and probably 90 seaters as well) to remain competitive.

Good luck to everyone at AA - and thank you for doing what should have been done years ago!

aa73
08-19-2012, 02:39 PM
Thanks guys.

As Eaglefly pointed out - in the midst of the battle there will always be those who don't deem the fight worthy enough, that the cards are stacked against us and that is it is better to take what is offered and concede defeat.

Holding the line,
73

aa73
08-19-2012, 02:41 PM
Copied from FI, by a compadre of mine:

Much going on here behind the scenes. The judge used 105 and 3/4 pages to say AMR made its case and APA did not, yet he still denied the motion! I find that to be extraordinary!

AMR made their case and the two points he denied on are minor in the eyes of the BK process. Why did he deny the motion? The UCC.

Did you see the press release the UCC sent out after the judge denied the motion? There are talking directly to the pilots "urging" us to make a deal and they will "reluctantly support" our 13.5% equity claim if we can reach a consensual deal. A UCC actually acknowledging pilots exist? When has that ever happened?

Now that is HUGE! Everyone in this process, including my union and their high dollar consultants told us repeatedly over the last few months that the 13.5% "goes away" if we vote NO.

Guess not. Fail.

Now the UCC come DIRECTLY to the pilots and wants us to make a deal. Why might that be?

They need a pilot contract to exit BK and get their money. They need pilots on board to make the operation run smoothly. Many of our Europe and Deep South flights are leaving 12 hours or more late! Hellva way to run an airline.

They need a pilot contract to get financing for new aircraft and other things. I don't think anyone will loan money to AMR with the operation running less than smoothly. Some say they don't need a contract to exit. They said we'd lose the 13.5 equity too. It's still on the table.

The threat of abrogation is "pain and uncertainty", words our VP of Flight the beloved John Hale used in a hotline to the pilots prior to the vote. I was stunned...my boss threatening me and those of us out on the line making this operation run. Seriously?

"Scope will be WORSE" was the cry! Here is what I think. In order to exploit the full "pain" of the 1113, AMR must make contracts with the lift providers out there so they can plan their schedules, buy airplanes, and make investments. Well, as long as we are in BK, any contracts AMR signs can be voided should LLC or someone else takes over in BK. Too much risk while in BK. So some of the percieved "hammers" are made of foam.

There are probably more problems that NOT having a consensual agreement with the pilots causes. I hope so. I think they need us. Going through us is not an option. Otherwise, the judge would have abrogated and been done with it.

A few more innings to go I think...

P.S. The FA's voted Yes on their deal today. Good, other than their "me too" clause. Less dead weight to drag along.

eaglefly
08-19-2012, 02:58 PM
Let's not forget that several of the influential members of the UCC are banks interested in short-term payout. This is NOT doing them any good and in fact, has the potential for serious risk and loss.

The UCC needs to talk to Horton more then the pilots because as long as he seeks total domination and capitulation, the status quo of the impending 1113 will remain. I think most pilots are willing to be reasonable, but AMR's model and methodology for virtual replacement of the majority of our jobs via outsourcing and representing the only way they can be successful is with compensation packages leaps and bounds below the competition is a recipe for continued failure of this "process".........and so far, a failure is all it has been.

As it stands now, any TA would have to involve pilot agreement as the BOD is loathe to send another crap proposal for vote only ensuring their demise and it's failure. As stated before, soon the BOD may swing back to the hard line of days past with potentially 5 new members and that coupled with enaction of the past threat of "pain" will only intensify division and force many to dig in like ticks making a bad situation worse and likely dragging that into the holidays.

Like I said, I give it a 50% chance the debtor screws it up. If that happens, perhaps then the UCC will end exclusivity and run into the arms of Parker with his 3 signed labor contracts.......that's if they haven't already begun that process.

labbats
08-19-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm simply shocked at the number of "pilots" here who would see us cave to a horrendous TA for 6 to 10 years vs. fighting for the profession.

Every junk contract signed by a major pilot groups simply drags everyone else down. Delta Management in 2016: "Times are tough. Fuel is expensive. We need to compensate you like AMR does to their pilots if we want any chance of competing successfully."

Is that the sort of garbage people are looking for? Unbelievable.

Are people saying this is unwinnable by the pilots? We should roll over and let them disembowel us?

Well said.

grasshopper
08-19-2012, 06:00 PM
Good luck guys.

Starscream
08-20-2012, 08:53 AM
Many of the tender young Airlinii's now blossoming actually hope for failure here in the hope of ravenously feeding on a fast meal of shiny RJ's oblivious to the ultimately fatal results of that meal to the quality of their longevity, yet ravenously feed on the carcasses of their brethren they will.

Ayy-yai-yai!! Are you going on again with your 'high-fiver' theories?!? Contrary to what you may think, the overwhelming majority of Eagle pilots support the APA in holding onto as many things from the current CBA as possible.

No one here is hoping to see your contract gutted -- while we jump
for joy at the prospects of flying a big shiny CRJ9 for cut-throat rates.

Could the goJets and Chautauquas being salivating at the possibility of your scope being anhilliated?? Perhaps -- you'd have to ask them.

I'd be more worried about jetBlue, Alaska, Cathay and Iberia doing 'your' flying for you.

What
08-20-2012, 09:09 AM
Copied from FI, by a compadre of mine:

Much going on here behind the scenes. The judge used 105 and 3/4 pages to say AMR made its case and APA did not, yet he still denied the motion! I find that to be extraordinary!

AMR made their case and the two points he denied on are minor in the eyes of the BK process. Why did he deny the motion? The UCC.

Did you see the press release the UCC sent out after the judge denied the motion? There are talking directly to the pilots "urging" us to make a deal and they will "reluctantly support" our 13.5% equity claim if we can reach a consensual deal. A UCC actually acknowledging pilots exist? When has that ever happened?

Now that is HUGE! Everyone in this process, including my union and their high dollar consultants told us repeatedly over the last few months that the 13.5% "goes away" if we vote NO.

Guess not. Fail.

Now the UCC come DIRECTLY to the pilots and wants us to make a deal. Why might that be?

They need a pilot contract to exit BK and get their money. They need pilots on board to make the operation run smoothly. Many of our Europe and Deep South flights are leaving 12 hours or more late! Hellva way to run an airline.

They need a pilot contract to get financing for new aircraft and other things. I don't think anyone will loan money to AMR with the operation running less than smoothly. Some say they don't need a contract to exit. They said we'd lose the 13.5 equity too. It's still on the table.

The threat of abrogation is "pain and uncertainty", words our VP of Flight the beloved John Hale used in a hotline to the pilots prior to the vote. I was stunned...my boss threatening me and those of us out on the line making this operation run. Seriously?

"Scope will be WORSE" was the cry! Here is what I think. In order to exploit the full "pain" of the 1113, AMR must make contracts with the lift providers out there so they can plan their schedules, buy airplanes, and make investments. Well, as long as we are in BK, any contracts AMR signs can be voided should LLC or someone else takes over in BK. Too much risk while in BK. So some of the percieved "hammers" are made of foam.

There are probably more problems that NOT having a consensual agreement with the pilots causes. I hope so. I think they need us. Going through us is not an option. Otherwise, the judge would have abrogated and been done with it.

A few more innings to go I think...

P.S. The FA's voted Yes on their deal today. Good, other than their "me too" clause. Less dead weight to drag along.

To further illustrate the point above this was published today addressing the AMR emoyees from the CEO!

Dear American Team:

We are now nearly nine months into our journey to restructure American for a successful future. We have made much progress and remain well positioned to move forward in building the new American.

Thanks to the hard work of our entire team, we have reduced debt, restructured aircraft leases, optimized the fleet and facilities, and renegotiated supplier contracts. All of this together will reduce non-labor costs by hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

As the restructuring has progressed, our revenue performance has been strong, topping the industry for many months in a row. This reflects the strength of our network and alliance strategy, as well as our operating and customer service performance which, thanks to you, is the best in many years. And all of this is beginning to show up in our financial results. In the second quarter, we posted a $95 million net profit, excluding reorganization and nonrecurring costs, which is a $381 million improvement from last year and our first second quarter profit in five years.

The process of achieving competitive labor costs has been challenging, as we knew it would be. Every part of our organization has had a part in this effort. Last week, we completed streamlining the management structure to be faster and better. At a time of our greatest challenge, we have seen tremendous leadership across the team.

In addition, we developed and began to implement restructuring plans for our independent employees, guided by their input, while working extensively with the unions to reach agreement on new contracts for represented employees. With hard work on all sides, we have achieved consensually agreed to new contracts with all TWU workgroups and with APFA, collectively representing more than 40,000 of our people.

We also appreciate the support we have received from the creditorsí committee, which cited the progress we have made so far in reaching new labor agreements, achieving our non-labor cost savings, and sharply improving revenue performance and operational results.

As you know, the company and the APA worked hard to reach a tentative agreement on a new labor contract, which was not ratified by the membership. While this was not the preferred course, we respect this democratic process and our fine pilot colleagues who serve American with great distinction. At this point, we must continue to take the next steps in the court process to secure the changes necessary to move forward with a successful restructuring. We will continue to work with the union to explore paths to a consensual deal which addresses our pilotsí priorities while working within the economic parameters of the tentative agreement.

For now, we will move forward one step at a time. We will seek the Courtís approval of the recently ratified TWU and APFA agreements, and will begin to implement the terms of those new contracts, alongside staffing and operational changes throughout the system. And, working with the board of directors and the creditorsí committee, we will continue to evaluate strategic alternatives as we seek the most value for our owners and the best outcome for our people.

We recognize the extent to which our restructuring has involved tradeoffs and differences of opinion among our people. As with other airlines that have been down this road, it will take time to turn the page on a challenging chapter. As we do, we will work towards better working relationships throughout the company and giving everyone a reason for renewed pride in our work and in the new American.

We share the same goal: To restore American to its rightful place of leadership in a global market. It is not an easy path, but we will succeed. As we press on, our most important mission is to keep doing a great job taking care of our customers every day.

eaglefly
08-20-2012, 09:25 AM
I enjoyed their specific statements of asking the court to approve their consensual deals with the TWU and APFA, yet murky reference to implimenting the pilots 1113.

If their "economic parameters" are equal to the LBFO, I forsee a long, long road ahead for this reorganization. Still expecting uncertainty and pain though and actually looking forward to my furlough for some welcome rest.

eaglefly
08-20-2012, 09:36 AM
Ayy-yai-yai!! Are you going on again with your 'high-fiver' theories?!? Contrary to what you may think, the overwhelming majority of Eagle pilots support the APA in holding onto as many things from the current CBA as possible.

No one here is hoping to see your contract gutted -- while we jump
for joy at the prospects of flying a big shiny CRJ9 for cut-throat rates.

Could the goJets and Chautauquas being salivating at the possibility of your scope being anhilliated?? Perhaps -- you'd have to ask them.

I'd be more worried about jetBlue, Alaska, Cathay and Iberia doing 'your' flying for you.

Gunga, gunga-la gunga !! Leave it to a hysterioparanoid Eagle pilot to assume that reference was to him or his high-fiver chums. It was a simple realistic statement of the reality of this profession and not aimed specifically toward those at Eagle.

But since YOU brought it up, my experience over the last 6 months shows that while many at Eagle are sympathetic to the AA pilots situation, just as many are also wrapped up in 79-seat fever.

aa73
08-20-2012, 10:24 AM
Eaglefly, Starscream is on our side... and a cool dude to boot. ;)

eaglefly
08-20-2012, 11:16 AM
Eaglefly, Starscream is on our side... and a cool dude to boot. ;)

Perhaps, but he took bait that wasn't there and swam with it. Tough to tell when that happens. The "high-five" situation at Eagle isn't of concern right now anyway. Eagle pilots are just pawns on the same chess board and their own union is their primary enemy.

Small narrow-body jets like the E175/190 ARE indeed a problem just as much if not more then the other outsource avenues he mentioned. It matters little who flies them with an "AA" on the tail if they're not pilots on the AA senioirty list.

Still have friends there and I don't consider the pilots there enemies (well, perhaps a few......but very few). We each have our own battle now and until that shakes out, no time for tit-for-tat fun. ;)

babs
08-20-2012, 11:20 AM
Gunga, gunga-la gunga !! Leave it to a hysterioparanoid Eagle pilot to assume that reference was to him or his high-fiver chums. It was a simple realistic statement of the reality of this profession and not aimed specifically toward those at Eagle.

But since YOU brought it up, my experience over the last 6 months shows that while many at Eagle are sympathetic to the AA pilots situation, just as many are also wrapped up in 79-seat fever.

Maybe a few loud mouths are being heard over the silent majority, but I find this statement to be a gross exaggeration. No intelligent Eagle pilot wants to see Eagle get bigger airplanes at the expense of American Pilots. After all, isn't the goal of most pilots to eventually fly for mainline?

WE are on your side and I am proud of you guys for finally drawing the line!

eaglefly
08-20-2012, 11:59 AM
Maybe a few loud mouths are being heard over the silent majority, but I find this statement to be a gross exaggeration. No intelligent Eagle pilot wants to see Eagle get bigger airplanes at the expense of American Pilots. After all, isn't the goal of most pilots to eventually fly for mainline?

WE are on your side and I am proud of you guys for finally drawing the line!

"Intelligent Eagle Pilot" ?

Agreed there that those who are the above and DO want a future beyond a whipsaw regional can see that the transformation of the U.S. domestic network away from major airline compensation is in their best interests, but there are plenty not of that character. Before you go off the deep end, most here including myself aren't on the offensive against Eagle PILOTS and understand that the MAJORITY aren't "high-fivers" or subscribe to that philosophy.

Last week alone, I listened to two seperate conversations among Eagle pilots (between 4-6 pilots) and believe me the idea of getting E175's was VERY appealing to them and the complaints were NOT about them arriving (and what that means), but about not getting paid more then smaller CRJ's to fly them. No matter, as like it or not, they WILL be arriving at Eagle's doorstep as well as others.

We ALL will lose because of it.

Starscream
08-21-2012, 06:33 AM
Perhaps, but he took bait that wasn't there and swam with it. Tough to tell when that happens. The "high-five" situation at Eagle isn't of concern right now anyway. Eagle pilots are just pawns on the same chess board and their own union is their primary enemy.

You've been outspoken in the past about suspecting Eagle pilots (or regional pilots in general) are salivating at the thought of scope relief and will be high-fiving when the new mega-RJs arrive. Not the case at all.

Most Eagle pilots (I say most -- because I know there are some haters that will gladly play along with anything as long as it's to the detriment of the APA -- but they ARE a small minority) support the APA in its negotiation with management.

I'm sorry, I just get a little annoyed when someone (especially someone who was obviously at Eagle for quite some time) just blindly thinks pilots at the regionals are in some great rush to prolong their time spent earning sub-janitor wages for their services. Not the case.

Eaglefly, Starscream is on our side... and a cool dude to boot. ;)

Thanks bro!! Greetings from Albania! :cool:

eaglefly
08-21-2012, 11:06 AM
You've been outspoken in the past about suspecting Eagle pilots (or regional pilots in general) are salivating at the thought of scope relief and will be high-fiving when the new mega-RJs arrive. Not the case at all.

Most Eagle pilots (I say most -- because I know there are some haters that will gladly play along with anything as long as it's to the detriment of the APA -- but they ARE a small minority) support the APA in its negotiation with management.

I'm sorry, I just get a little annoyed when someone (especially someone who was obviously at Eagle for quite some time) just blindly thinks pilots at the regionals are in some great rush to prolong their time spent earning sub-janitor wages for their services. Not the case.


Being at Eagle for quite some time would seem to take me out of the "blind" category when it comes to what regional pilots may think, yes ?

In reality, I came to the same conclusion while still at Eagle AS a regional pilot. The fact is, a substantial percentage of regional pilots are now older and see the legacies with their withering compensation as no longer a destination and feel their longevity and seniority will provide a better return for them in the long run. Thus, any mechanism that has a chance at providing better compensation and job security where they are is preferable. Many of mid seniority/age, myopically only see the quick upgrade and whatever can provide that ASAP.

Both those subgroups have more footing at the regional level and eagerly seek advancement there and how can you blame them. Many not in those psychological subgroups do indeed look beyond immediate gratification of SJS. Both exist and the former are not just a few strays. Try not to take that reality personally, if you are not one of them. It IS a reality though.