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View Full Version : Student Pic Time...


BEWELCH
11-07-2006, 07:54 AM
When Dual Instruction Is Given, Can And Should The Student Log Pic?


mike734
11-07-2006, 08:29 AM
If you maintain the rule that there can only be one PIC at any one time you can never go wrong. I can't say I followed that advice however. When I was trying to build time I logged PIC in a twin when I was "sole manipulator" even though I was sitting next to the real PIC. Hey, I was the one flying! It helped my argument that I had a MEI.

FlyerJosh
11-07-2006, 08:36 AM
A STUDENT pilot can not log PIC unless flying solo.

A private pilot (or higher rated), student may log PIC for flights that he/she is appropriately rated.


mike734
11-07-2006, 08:51 AM
When Dual Instruction Is Given, Can And Should The Student Log Pic?
Oh yeah, did you mean student pilot like someone who is not yet rated? I tend to think of a student as someone getting instruction regardless of ratings. An instrument student, for example.

I really should stay away from these CFI type questions. It has been WAY too long since I actually knew the answers.

undflyboy06
11-07-2006, 10:28 AM
Yep, FlyerJosh is right. The only way you are able to log PIC as a student pilot (actual student pilot without private pilot certificate or higher) is to be the sole occupant in the aircraft.

The only other person that would be allowed in the aircraft would be the flight instructor, since student pilots are not authorized to carry passengers. When a flight instructor is with you can only log it as dual received.

FlyerJosh
11-07-2006, 10:56 AM
The only other person that would be allowed in the aircraft would be the flight instructor, since student pilots are not authorized to carry passengers. When a flight instructor is with you can only log it as dual received.

The only person allowed on board when at student pilot logs PIC is the student pilot. When a CFI is onboard, the CFI is acting as the PIC, so passengers may be carried legally during training flight. The best example of this is bringing another student along as an observer, which can significantly reduce flight training costs if conducted in an appropriate manner.

undflyboy06
11-07-2006, 11:04 AM
OOps, I forgot about that. :o

sigep_nm
11-07-2006, 01:32 PM
How does bringing an observer along reduce the cost of flight training? You cant charge them to come along.

FlyerJosh
11-07-2006, 01:45 PM
It reduces the cost of training for the observer. I highly encourged my students to both observe other students as well as allow their flights to be observed.

I found through personal experience, that students that spent time observing (both on flights with me and with other CFIs), picked up concepts much quicker. Likewise, I found that by observing, I could generally cut off a few hours of training prior to solo, and roughly 10 hours over the entire course of training.

sigep_nm
11-08-2006, 12:00 AM
I doubt it buddy. Do you actually think the guys in the back are paying attention at all? They arent there because they want to be, but because they are forced to be. When was the last time you learned anything when you were forced to be there? Nice pipe dream/

mistarose
11-08-2006, 04:59 PM
I doubt it buddy. Do you actually think the guys in the back are paying attention at all? They arent there because they want to be, but because they are forced to be. When was the last time you learned anything when you were forced to be there? Nice pipe dream/

I tend to disagree, if the student and CFI do not mind the extra weight in the back, its a tremendous oppurtunity for the observer to learn for free. I agree that for it to be benificial, the observer/student has to pay attention...

When I was working on my PVT, I wasn't able to watch others since it was done in a 2-place trainer. However when I started instrument training in a 4 place trainer - I sat in on a couple flights.

I was able to pick up on checklist usage in the new aircraft and its performance, but most importantly I was able to visually see what "I" would be doing in the near future. This enabled me to save money and have a experience to relate to as I studied.

While working on my Commercial SEL, I sat in on a couple Arrow flights which was my first experience in a complex airplane. It was awesome and motivating to see how much fun I would be having, but most importantly once again - I was able to see flow checks, checklist usage, and how the airplane performed and is flown for free. This was a tremendous help.

Just my opinion. :cool:

Illini
11-08-2006, 05:16 PM
I doubt it buddy. Do you actually think the guys in the back are paying attention at all? They arent there because they want to be, but because they are forced to be. When was the last time you learned anything when you were forced to be there? Nice pipe dream/

So true. During my initial training, my CFI "suggested" I ride in the back. So I brought the Daily Illini newspaper and jammed out to my iPod. I learn more through the conversation during ground instruction. But, hey, thats just me...

mistarose
11-08-2006, 07:04 PM
It basically all depends on the student, as the FAA tells CFIs, don't treat every student the same - cause they aren't.

btwissel
11-13-2006, 08:50 AM
Oh yeah, did you mean student pilot like someone who is not yet rated? I tend to think of a student as someone getting instruction regardless of ratings. An instrument student, for example.

an instrument student can log PIC as long as they are rated for the category and type of AC, and you're not in IMC (since they don't have a IA, they can't legally be PIC in IMC)

ToiletDuck
11-13-2006, 09:28 PM
If you maintain the rule that there can only be one PIC at any one time you can never go wrong. I can't say I followed that advice however. When I was trying to build time I logged PIC in a twin when I was "sole manipulator" even though I was sitting next to the real PIC. Hey, I was the one flying! It helped my argument that I had a MEI.

Not true. There is PIC instruction given and PIC instruction received. It comes down to what the student has. If he is a pre private then no. However once he can legally fly the plane with passengers then he can be PIC and you can be PIC instruction given.

A loophole is if you need multi time but don't have your MEI you just go up with another guy and put him under the hood and act as a CFI giving instrument instrcution then you both get to log it so long as you are rated for the aircraft as well. Some say you have to have your CFII and some say you don't. A regular CFI can give up to 20hrs of instrument instruction before you have to hand him off to a CFII so he can finish up... Let me rephrase that. He needs 20hrs from a CFII so if he wants the most bang for his buck he'd only get 20 from you.

However with commercial students ect. if they already are rated to fly the aircraft and you are giving instruction to them one logs it as PIC and Dual received and you log it as PIC and instruction given. Same for BFR's ect.

mike734
11-13-2006, 10:29 PM
Not true. There is PIC instruction given and PIC instruction received. It comes down to what the student has. If he is a pre private then no. However once he can legally fly the plane with passengers then he can be PIC and you can be PIC instruction given.

A loophole is if you need multi time but don't have your MEI you just go up with another guy and put him under the hood and act as a CFI giving instrument instrcution then you both get to log it so long as you are rated for the aircraft as well. Some say you have to have your CFII and some say you don't. A regular CFI can give up to 20hrs of instrument instruction before you have to hand him off to a CFII so he can finish up... Let me rephrase that. He needs 20hrs from a CFII so if he wants the most bang for his buck he'd only get 20 from you.

However with commercial students ect. if they already are rated to fly the aircraft and you are giving instruction to them one logs it as PIC and Dual received and you log it as PIC and instruction given. Same for BFR's ect.
See? Simple!

ToiletDuck
11-14-2006, 05:16 AM
I just realized I sounded like fed..... and I don't like it.