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jacjetlag
09-12-2012, 08:15 PM
Real and significant work rule changes enacted as of today, 9/12. A fund to be frozen or terminated, B fund to be terminated Nov.1st. The war has started. AA has engaged in "self help".


flybywire44
09-12-2012, 08:39 PM
AMR Risks Bankruptcy Delay on Pilot Rift as US Air Waits (http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-12/amr-risks-bankruptcy-delay-on-pilot-rift-as-us-air-waits.html?cmpid=yhoo)
By Mary Schlangenstein
September 12, 2012 4:28 PM EDT
Bloomberg

aa73
09-13-2012, 04:01 AM
B-fund is actually terminated Nov 30. Last contribution is Nov 1.


mvndc10
09-13-2012, 05:22 AM
Wheres the Log Book???

Oh the standby Altimiter Vibrator is intermittent better call maint..

Also we seem to have some missing pages from the MEL book...

beeker
09-13-2012, 05:26 AM
the b fund termination seems like a fairly extreme move to me!

jacjetlag
09-13-2012, 05:51 AM
The B fund termination is actually a good thing....It's currently run by JP Morgan and the performance/fees are rediculous. Supposed to be replaced by 13.5% 401k match...after a T/A passes.

For now, "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!"

eaglefly
09-13-2012, 05:55 AM
Going to have to stick it out till next May, but maybe sooner if the UCC backs AMR's stand alone plan and it's accepted by the court leading to chapter 11 exit. Few have any interest in further negotiations with this management, although the APA may posture that, the pilots aren't interested in anything not industry leading now. I think the UCC and AMR are on their own now and the remainder of the BK process should be about legal recourse to the 1113 abrogation.

No hurry now for the pilots as we are where we are. The claim is still valid, although likely greatly reduced, but I'll happily take a 1/3 or 1/2 claim to kick this can past chapter 11. I think AMR will need one more exclusivity extention to put in place their stand alone POR and ensure the UCC is on-board for the crap game of crap games next summer.

Jack was indeed wrong when he told the court a consensual agreement was necessary to exit BK, as that is now all but impossible, so that is now what it is.

eaglefly
09-13-2012, 05:58 AM
The B fund termination is actually a good thing....It's currently run by JP Morgan and the performance/fees are rediculous. Supposed to be replaced by 13.5% 401k match...after a T/A passes.

For now, "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!"

I think it is VERY important NOT to roll your B-fund into the JPM 401(k). You will be FAR better off rolling that into a regular or Roth IRA through one of the reputable brokerages like Fidelity or Schwab.

beeker
09-13-2012, 07:35 AM
The B fund termination is actually a good thing....It's currently run by JP Morgan and the performance/fees are rediculous. Supposed to be replaced by 13.5% 401k match...after a T/A passes.

For now, "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!"

oh i didn't know that, i read it as termination of b fund with nothing replacing it. That would have been extreme.

av8trup2late
09-13-2012, 10:26 AM
These guys are going to take everything fast. The only thing you have is to strike soon. And this time tell the President of the United States to screw himself. If he wants to put pilots in jail, let 'em.

Sliceback
09-13-2012, 05:14 PM
oh i didn't know that, i read it as termination of b fund with nothing replacing it. That would have been extreme.


You read it correctly. As of right now there is no other retirement plan. "TBD".

Rider850
09-13-2012, 07:02 PM
The B fund termination is actually a good thing....It's currently run by JP Morgan and the performance/fees are rediculous. Supposed to be replaced by 13.5% 401k match...after a T/A passes.

For now, "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!"


Plenty of Soup. Just no one is eating it. Not to sure how accurate your 13.5% is. It would be like 17-18% to even out loss of A/B fund.

swaayze
09-13-2012, 08:13 PM
I thought I saw a 401k with dollar for dollar to 5.5% would replace the B fund under the imposed terms?

B757200ER
09-13-2012, 08:52 PM
B-fund is actually terminated Nov 30. Last contribution is Nov 1.

True Dat. We'll see what, if any, retirement/pension options remain.

eaglefly
09-14-2012, 02:38 AM
I thought I saw a 401k with dollar for dollar to 5.5% would replace the B fund under the imposed terms?

Applies to non-pilot groups. Our pension replacement is TBD.

Wilbur Wright
09-14-2012, 07:38 AM
American Airlines Pilots Feel Painful Cuts

The airline started imposing new terms Wednesday night


| Friday, Sep 14, 2012 | Updated 5:11 AM CDT

American Airlines pilots knew the cuts were coming, but the union calls the new terms atomic. A company spokesperson tells NBC 5 that there s no joy in making the cuts, but claims it has to be done for the airline to survive.

American Airlines Pilots Feel Painful Cuts

American Airlines pilots knew the cuts were coming, but the union calls the new terms “atomic.” A company spokesperson tells NBC 5 that there’s no joy in making the cuts, but claims it has to be done for the airline to survive.
“What they’ve elected to do is really kick the hornet’s nest. They told us they were going to go slow, that they’d like to get back to the bargaining table, but they’ve chosen the nuclear option here,” said First Officer Tom Hoban with the Allied Pilots Association.
Hoban said the cuts coming from American Airlines are just fueling pilots frustrations. The company got the green light last week from a judge to start slashing $370 million in pilot costs. The airline isn’t wasting any time.

“We’re going to be working more days with less pay, under some pretty significant, onerous conditions,” said Hoban.

American plans to increase the pilots maximum work time to 90 hours per month. Hoban said that’s up from an average of 83 hours per month now and that 90 hours equates to about 20 days away from home every month.

The company is also planning to freeze pensions and immediately ease code-sharing restrictions. That allows American to use smaller, regional planes like SkyWest (http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/American-Airlines-to-Outsource-Some-Flying-169464096.html) and Express Jet. Pilots fear it will mean outsourcing their jobs and could impact passengers. “When you buy a ticket on American Airlines, you expect to get on American Airlines. With code-share, you could be on ‘XYZ’ and not know when you purchase a ticket,” said Hoban.
American said it tried to reach an agreement with the pilots, just like it did with the flight attendants and ground workers. Right now, talks are at a standstill, which could increase the odds of a US Airways takeover.

“If they don’t have a pilot contract in place, there’s a great deal of financial uncertainty and operational uncertainty,” Hoban said.

The pilots are now voting whether to strike. The outcome of that vote is expected by Oct. 3. The union said it will be up to a judge to decide if a strike is legal.

“This is more about federal law, which makes it really tough for a union to go on strike, and American and the APA haven’t reached the point where a job action (a strike) or other “self-help” would be allowed," according to an American Airlines spokesperson. "The APA’s own general counsel reminded the union in a memorandum to its national officers and board of directors that any job action would be unlawful."

Airline labor relations are governed by the Railway Labor Act, which lays out a process for handling contract negotiations and labor disputes. Key to the RLA is the National Mediation Board, which steps into contract talks if the union and management cannot reach an agreement.

Under the RLA, a union cannot strike until a) the NMB has concluded that talks have come to an impasse; b) the NMB has proffered binding arbitration to the two sides; c) one party has declined the proffer; d) the board calls for a 30-day, cooling-off period; and e) the 30 days expires without a deal.”

hockeypilot44
09-14-2012, 06:27 PM
I thought the American pilots did not have a contract to begin with. I thought the contract expired years ago, and under the RLA, they are required to maintain status quo. This changes status quo under the RLA. Does that mean the American pilots can strike? Does bankruptcy trump the RLA?

johnso29
09-14-2012, 06:35 PM
I thought the American pilots did not have a contract to begin with. I thought the contract expired years ago, and under the RLA, they are required to maintain status quo. This changes status quo under the RLA. Does that mean the American pilots can strike? Does bankruptcy trump the RLA?

The contract doesn't expire. It becomes amendable, right? That's what I thought.

galaxy flyer
09-14-2012, 06:36 PM
Under the RLA, contracts do NOT expire; they become amendable. They have been working under the contract, as amended. BK cannot overrule the RLA, only abrogate the contract. Virtually the ONLY way to strike under the RLA is thru a declared impasse, 30- day cooling off period and no deal. The AA pilots cannot strike until the NMB says they have reached an impasse. That is to say, a legal strike. And, even if striking the President can establish a PEB, order the strikers back to the table and work.

Gf

80ktsClamp
09-14-2012, 08:21 PM
The contract doesn't expire. It becomes amendable, right? That's what I thought.

Correct. It only becomes amendable... hence why it is called the "amendable date." There is no date where it expires.

I don't understand how abrogating the contract which was amendable doesn't change the status quo.

lolwut
09-14-2012, 09:09 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26761511.jpg

alfaromeo
09-15-2012, 05:23 AM
Correct. It only becomes amendable... hence why it is called the "amendable date." There is no date where it expires.

I don't understand how abrogating the contract which was amendable doesn't change the status quo.

It does change the status quo, that's why there is a set process involving a bankruptcy judge, this one lasting almost a year. Changing the status quo is not the trigger for a strike, it is release by the NMB.

Federal courts have weighed in on this issue three different times. In each case, they have said that the union's status following a rejection is covered under Section 2 of the RLA (employees with a union but not contract) and not Section 6 (with an amendable contract). That is a different process that is actually longer than Section 6. If I had a link to the ruling I would post it but I don't have one readily available.

The APA has a document on their website that lays out their lawyers views of these cases. We have seen that the webboard lawyers are all pretty much completely wrong and I would again urge any American pilot to listen to their lawyers and not pilots when trying to decide what is legal and not legal.

block30
09-15-2012, 05:28 AM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26761511.jpg

Keep those memes coming. Any chance you take requests? Maybe one with Michael Bolton, Roger Cohen, or a waterskiing squirrel?

johnso29
09-15-2012, 06:49 AM
What was imposed WRT scope? I know domestic codeshare was cracked wide open, but what about RJs? I heard AMR pushed it to only 79 seats, as opposed to the 88 in their initial term sheet.

RiddleEagle18
09-15-2012, 07:00 AM
Has there been any discussion of using an NFL style tactic. De certify the Union and walk off the job.

Check Essential
09-15-2012, 07:56 AM
2nd Circuit Court of Appeals:

This dispute between the Association of Flight Attendants (“AFA”) and Northwest Airlines (“Northwest”) is situated in a peculiar corner of our law more evocative of an Eero Saarinen interior of creative angularity than the classical constructions of Cardozo and Holmes.   Northwest, under the protection of Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code and with the bankruptcy court's imprimatur, has rejected the collective-bargaining agreement that until recently governed its relationship with the AFA and imposed new terms and conditions of employment upon its flight attendants.   The AFA does not wish to accede to these terms and conditions of employment and threatens a work stoppage unless Northwest agrees to terms and conditions that are more favorable to the flight attendants.
The District Court for the Southern District of New York (Victor Marrero, Judge ) issued a preliminary injunction precluding the AFA and its members from engaging in any form of work stoppage.   It held that any such work stoppage would cause irreparable harm and, at this juncture, violate the Railway Labor Act. On this basis, the district court concluded that the Norris-LaGuardia Act did not deprive it of jurisdiction to issue the injunction.
We agree, but for substantially different reasons than those advanced by the district court.   We hold that Section 2 (First) of the Railway Labor Act forbids an immediate strike when a bankruptcy court approves a debtor-carrier's rejection of a collective-bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act and permits it to impose new terms, and the propriety of that approval is not on appeal.

Full case:

IN RE: NORTHWEST AIRLINES CORPORATION, Docket Nos. (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1034838.html)

galaxy flyer
09-15-2012, 08:23 AM
Actually, the "NFL" tactic could work, if the pilots were willing to resign. How could the courts hold the APA responsible for that action, if decertified? Admittedly, a new union drive would have to held after BK.

GF

Sniper
09-15-2012, 10:12 AM
[AA] got the green light last week from a judge to start slashing $370 million in pilot costs. The airline isn’t wasting any time.

AA has roughly 8,400 active pilots. $370M/8.4K = $44K in givebacks per pilot.

MIT's labor data shows, in 2011 AA spent $58.5K/pilot in pensions and benefits (http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2011%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Pension%20and%20Benefit%20Package%20-%20PILOTS%20AND%20CO-PILOTS.htm). Of that $58.5K, roughly $15.4K is from the B plan (mean AA pilot salary (http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2011%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm) is $140K, B plan is 11%).

While the math to value the A plan is beyond my math skills, I'd imagine the A plan savings would be pretty substantial, given the implied costs of an A plan. For simplicities sake, let's very conservatively value the frozen A plan @ another $15.4K/pilot (same value as the B plan).

The international override averages $5/hr per pilot, or about 3% of the hourly rate ($5/777CA @ $205/hr + MD-80 FO @ $110/hr). So, there's another $2K/pilot in savings when the override goes away, since only 1/2 the pilots get the override.

So, just by freezing the A plan, eliminating the B plan, and eliminating the international override, AA saves around $33K/pilot, or 75% of the savings needed to get to the $44K/pilot needed.

AA pilots, just by losing those 3 items, are, using EXTREMELY conservative #'s, getting $27.7K in benefits per pilot, and only need to give back an additional $9K/pilot.

The sum of ALL rest of the cuts so far announced (including HUGE scope losses) are only going to yield $9K in savings per pilot, only 25% of the cost savings needed "to survive"? Call me a skeptic.

El Gwopo
09-15-2012, 04:07 PM
What happens if AA pilots simply don't show up for work for say...a week? What happens then? Jail?

LittleBoyBlew
09-15-2012, 05:11 PM
What happens if AA pilots simply don't show up for work for say...a week? What happens then? Jail?

Most likely a temp court injunction against the APA and every individual AA pilot.. However, any disruption would most likely spook the UCC, and subsequently result in TH being put out to pasture..

Aspilot
09-15-2012, 06:16 PM
What happens if AA pilots simply don't show up for work for say...a week? What happens then? Jail?

I would hope that all airline pilots regardless of union affiliation would take a day off with the AA pilots. Their fight is our fight.

unitedflyier
09-17-2012, 07:12 PM
Calling for work action could be illegal and cost the union millions. It got several pilots at other airlines into big trouble.

When I returned to United after my first furlough Glenn Tilton said if you don't like it quit. But has was laughing, because he knew he would win as no one would.

He was absolutely right. You may not be allowed to get others to call in sick, and you may not be allowed to strike. But there is nothing to stop pilots en-mass in quitting. Yes it would take enormous courage, and a leap of faith.

But if a significant number did at AMR or many other airlines. The government would stand up and take notice. Only then will they start to address the real problems. They cannot simply find that number of pilots to replace you all in a year.

20,000+ quitting on the same day would be awesome. I know it will never happen.

Bucking Bar
09-18-2012, 08:47 AM
Calling for work action could be illegal and cost the union millions. It got several pilots at other airlines into big trouble.

When I returned to United after my first furlough Glenn Tilton said if you don't like it quit. But has was laughing, because he knew he would win as no one would.

He was absolutely right. You may not be allowed to get others to call in sick, and you may not be allowed to strike. But there is nothing to stop pilots en-mass in quitting. Yes it would take enormous courage, and a leap of faith.

But if a significant number did at AMR or many other airlines. The government would stand up and take notice. Only then will they start to address the real problems. They cannot simply find that number of pilots to replace you all in a year.

20,000+ quitting on the same day would be awesome. I know it will never happen.Back when American pilots founded the pilots union, ALPA would collect resignation letters and use them in negotiations. Abrogation of scope is certainly a trigger in my book.

American pilots, our profesion is behind you.

Puros
09-18-2012, 09:43 AM
Back when American pilots founded the pilots union, ALPA would collect resignation letters and use them in negotiations. Abrogation of scope is certainly a trigger in my book.

American pilots, our profesion is behind you.

Well said! We (major airline pilots) are in this together and all of our managements are taking note of Hortons actions, refining their plan to use against us. The arrogance Horton displayed going into this fight with the APA is telling and now I understand it more. We all have to support the APA

flyallnite
09-18-2012, 10:21 AM
I'm sure there was a day when managements would back down from pilot demands and threats. As far as I can tell, that day hasn't been around for at least 20 years.

Collectively, we've lost scope, retirements, work rules, career progression, Captains Authority, privacy rights, the list goes on, and we've done NOTHING to stop it. When the chips were down, when we should have called a national SOS--we capitulated. Doesn't matter anymore why.

Regardless, nobody is going to do a damn thing to stop the ever downward spiral of this profession. I almost have to laugh when I use that word now. Profession. It's really not anymore. It's more of a vocation. The days of pilots holding political and operational power are long gone. That is the reality, and as the UAL guy basically said, if you don't like it, then quit. I know that I wouldn't even consider mentoring young people into this profession anymore. My advice to them is to get into a line of work where they can make enough money to buy their own plane, and enjoy their passion.

I wish the AA pilots well. I think a lot of them have had it and don't really care what happens. I know a bunch of USAir guys and they have the same viewpoint. Most of them have either quit, or depend on another source of income, flying is their second job. As we lose power and frankly, hope for recovery of this career, we'll be more and more willing to sign away what jobs are left to scope, and eventually cabotage. Foreign ownership of airline rules will go by the wayside eventually, and there will be few if any U.S. based airline pilots who are also American citizens. Why? Because nobody cares any more. Not enough to actually do anything about what's happening.

NERD
09-18-2012, 11:30 AM
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): Hey! What's all this laying around stuff? Why are you all still laying around here for?
Stork (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0448469/): What the hell are we supposed to do, ya moron? We're all expelled. There's nothing to fight for anymore.
D-Day (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569226/): [to Bluto] Let it go. War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001513/): [to Boon] Germans?
Boon (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0726200/): Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[Bluto runs out, alone; then returns]
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): What the **** happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001513/): Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0569226/): [stands up] Yeah, I agree. Let's go get 'em.
Boon (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0726200/): Let's do it.
Bluto (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): [shouting] "Let's do it"!





I'm sure there was a day when managements would back down from pilot demands and threats. As far as I can tell, that day hasn't been around for at least 20 years.

Collectively, we've lost scope, retirements, work rules, career progression, Captains Authority, privacy rights, the list goes on, and we've done NOTHING to stop it. When the chips were down, when we should have called a national SOS--we capitulated. Doesn't matter anymore why.

Regardless, nobody is going to do a damn thing to stop the ever downward spiral of this profession. I almost have to laugh when I use that word now. Profession. It's really not anymore. It's more of a vocation. The days of pilots holding political and operational power are long gone. That is the reality, and as the UAL guy basically said, if you don't like it, then quit. I know that I wouldn't even consider mentoring young people into this profession anymore. My advice to them is to get into a line of work where they can make enough money to buy their own plane, and enjoy their passion.

I wish the AA pilots well. I think a lot of them have had it and don't really care what happens. I know a bunch of USAir guys and they have the same viewpoint. Most of them have either quit, or depend on another source of income, flying is their second job. As we lose power and frankly, hope for recovery of this career, we'll be more and more willing to sign away what jobs are left to scope, and eventually cabotage. Foreign ownership of airline rules will go by the wayside eventually, and there will be few if any U.S. based airline pilots who are also American citizens. Why? Because nobody cares any more. Not enough to actually do anything about what's happening.

eaglefly
09-18-2012, 12:46 PM
I'm sure there was a day when managements would back down from pilot demands and threats. As far as I can tell, that day hasn't been around for at least 20 years.

Collectively, we've lost scope, retirements, work rules, career progression, Captains Authority, privacy rights, the list goes on, and we've done NOTHING to stop it. When the chips were down, when we should have called a national SOS--we capitulated. Doesn't matter anymore why.

Regardless, nobody is going to do a damn thing to stop the ever downward spiral of this profession. I almost have to laugh when I use that word now. Profession. It's really not anymore. It's more of a vocation. The days of pilots holding political and operational power are long gone. That is the reality, and as the UAL guy basically said, if you don't like it, then quit. I know that I wouldn't even consider mentoring young people into this profession anymore. My advice to them is to get into a line of work where they can make enough money to buy their own plane, and enjoy their passion.

I wish the AA pilots well. I think a lot of them have had it and don't really care what happens. I know a bunch of USAir guys and they have the same viewpoint. Most of them have either quit, or depend on another source of income, flying is their second job. As we lose power and frankly, hope for recovery of this career, we'll be more and more willing to sign away what jobs are left to scope, and eventually cabotage. Foreign ownership of airline rules will go by the wayside eventually, and there will be few if any U.S. based airline pilots who are also American citizens. Why? Because nobody cares any more. Not enough to actually do anything about what's happening.

Yet, still they aren't satisfied and want more. In fact, Lorenzo's old lawyer as well as his previous spokesman are on board and assisting in the tightening of the screws this time. This is really a desire to bust the unions once and for all at AA by rendering them moot forever.

If successful here, then DAL and UAL will have to somehow compete with AA future slave labor. If they can't get it in pay/benefits, they'll eventually just outsource more. Arsenic or strychnine, take your choice.

johnso29
09-18-2012, 04:57 PM
Yet, still they aren't satisfied and want more. In fact, Lorenzo's old lawyer as well as his previous spokesman are on board and assisting in the tightening of the screws this time. This is really a desire to bust the unions once and for all at AA by rendering them moot forever.

If successful here, then DAL and UAL will have to somehow compete with AA future slave labor. If they can't get it in pay/benefits, they'll eventually just outsource more. Arsenic or strychnine, take your choice.

DAL really already competes with it. Look at LCC & UAL pay rates.

eaglefly
09-18-2012, 05:19 PM
DAL really already competes with it. Look at LCC & UAL pay rates.

Your overall compensation is projected to be significantly above AA/U going forward, at least presently.