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7576FO
10-15-2012, 06:45 AM
Just thought many might not know. A fund frozen. B fund sold for scrap, proceeds available in April or may 2013 to be put into a 401K. NO MORE B FUND CONTRIBUTIONS after Nov 1, 2012.
Zero match by company into your (our) 401K after Nov 1, 2012.

TOTAL RETIREMENT COMPENSATION FOR AA PILOTS ZERO AFTER NOV 1 2012

I voted NO to their LBFO and knew the term sheet would be bad. I prepared for this.

SUCK IT AMR


Just wanted the professional airline pilots of America to know that if they see me "Just doing my job and only my job" that AMR picked this fight!


chuck416
10-15-2012, 07:25 AM
.....speechless.....
Keep you chin up. Your pride is about all you have left. Very Sincere best wishes to all you APA guys.

7576FO
10-15-2012, 10:38 AM
Thank you! I knew it would be bad. And i'm ready for the storm. I just wasn't sure if many people knew that our B fund is gone too. It will be sold on a down market.
And we have never had any match on our 401K.

Beginning Nov 1, 2012 AA (AMR) contributes NOTHING, ZERO, NADA NIL to our retirement.

The media has not mentioned this.


satpak77
10-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Thank you! I knew it would be bad. And i'm ready for the storm. I just wasn't sure if many people knew that our B fund is gone too. It will be sold on a down market.
And we have never had any match on our 401K.

Beginning Nov 1, 2012 AA (AMR) contributes NOTHING, ZERO, NADA NIL to our retirement.

The media has not mentioned this.

Silly question but if and when AA resumes hiring, are the new hires faced with the "revised retirement program" at AA, as described above

Tomahawk58
10-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Silly question but if and when AA resumes hiring, are the new hires faced with the "revised retirement program" at AA, as described above

This is truly misleading information! While not weighing in on negotiations, the retirement is as follows:

1. The LFBO was 14 percent to the new DC plan (no pilot matching required). The A-Fund (DB Plan) is frozen with benefits earned through October 31, 2012

2. The term sheet has the DC plan at 13.5 percent and the A-fund frozen

3. The Company and the APA are in negotiations and the retirement will kick in effective November 1, 2012 once a consensual agreement is approved and ratified.

So what's the status of the A and B funds?

1. A Fund will be received as an annual annuity at retirement based on the accumulated benefit as of October 31, 2012

2. B Fund will be either rolled over into the pilot's 401k, another retirement account of the pilot's choosing or distributed personally to the pilot in May 2013 all based on the benefit accumulated through November 30, 2012. (Additionally, 5.5 perent will be added to the value of the Pilot's B fund prior to distribution).

While there a ways to go to get this thing done, posting misleading information serves no purpose except to be inflammatory.

7576FO
10-15-2012, 01:48 PM
I SAY AGAIN I AM A PILOT FOR AMERICAN AIRLINES EFFECTIVE THIS MINUTE AND FROM NOV 1 2012 THERE WILL BE ZERO MONEY FROM AMR TO ALL PILOTS RETIREMENT. ZERO
ZERO
ZERO
ZERO

NOVEMBER 1,2012

Tramahawk58 who claimed to be a pilot for American Airlines (yeah right)

Once more time, barring an immediate new contract or any contract for the pilots of AA. AMR will place Zero dollars in any account of the American Airlines aviators. APA and AA management have been in negotiations this week. Unlikely they will come to any contract proposal, vote on it and send it to the membership.

Tomahawk58
10-15-2012, 04:54 PM
I SAY AGAIN I AM A PILOT FOR AMERICAN AIRLINES EFFECTIVE THIS MINUTE AND FROM NOV 1 2012 THERE WILL BE ZERO MONEY FROM AMR TO ALL PILOTS RETIREMENT. ZERO
ZERO
ZERO
ZERO

NOVEMBER 1,2012

Tramahawk58 who claimed to be a pilot for American Airlines (yeah right)

Once more time, barring an immediate new contract or any contract for the pilots of AA. AMR will place Zero dollars in any account of the American Airlines aviators. APA and AA management have been in negotiations this week. Unlikely they will come to any contract proposal, vote on it and send it to the membership.

Here's a cut and paste of the official language. Make of it what you will:

Freeze the A Plan on November 1, 2012, no further accruals to the pilot Defined Benefit Plan. Pilots will retain all benefits accrued as of October 31, 2012 (assuming no Plan termination is needed and approval is obtained to eliminate the lump sum and installment payment options in the A Plan; if approval is not obtained, seek court approval to terminate the A Plan).
Freeze the B Plan on November 1, 2012. Final contributions for October pay will be made in November. The B Plan will terminate on November 30, 2012, and no further contributions will be made to the B Plan. Plan valuation will occur as of November 30, 2012 and assets will be distributed in May 2013. Pilots will have choice of rolling balance over to another tax deferred retirement account or taking an annuity or lump sum distribution.
The replacement plan details will be determined at a later date.


So as I mentioned in my earlier post, there IS a replacement plan with details to be worked out at the table. I'm in no way suggesting all is rosy, only that notion that AA pilots are without a retirement plan is blatantly false!

7576FO
10-15-2012, 05:17 PM
Here's a cut and paste of the official language. Make of it what you will:

Freeze the A Plan on November 1, 2012, no further accruals to the pilot Defined Benefit Plan. Pilots will retain all benefits accrued as of October 31, 2012 (assuming no Plan termination is needed and approval is obtained to eliminate the lump sum and installment payment options in the A Plan; if approval is not obtained, seek court approval to terminate the A Plan).
Freeze the B Plan on November 1, 2012. Final contributions for October pay will be made in November. The B Plan will terminate on November 30, 2012, and no further contributions will be made to the B Plan. Plan valuation will occur as of November 30, 2012 and assets will be distributed in May 2013. Pilots will have choice of rolling balance over to another tax deferred retirement account or taking an annuity or lump sum distribution.
The replacement plan details will be determined at a later date.


So as I mentioned in my earlier post, there IS a replacement plan with details to be worked out at the table. I'm in no way suggesting all is rosy, only that notion that AA pilots are without a retirement plan is blatantly false!


TramaHawk,

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/2566/mancard.jpg



Tramahawk writes (The replacement plan details will be determined at a later date.)

In the meantime as of Nov 1 2012 AA pilots recieve 0 (Zero) dollars contribution to any retirement plan.

How is that blatently false? Especially when Tramahawk lied about being a AA pilot.


ATTENTION: AA PILOTS ARE WITHOUT ANY RETIREMENT CONTRIBUTIONS FROM AA AS OF NOV 1 2012

I just felt the public and my peers should know.

Tramahwk is a liar! A proven liar! And if he's writing on this forum he is Lying.

There you have it.

cactusmike
10-15-2012, 05:31 PM
Well if you have zero money going into any type of retirement plan then you have no retirement plan right now. Anything to be negotiated later is meaningless. "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" doesn't cut it.

Tomahawk58
10-15-2012, 05:36 PM
Well if you have zero money going into any type of retirement plan then you have no retirement plan right now. Anything to be negotiated later is meaningless. "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" doesn't cut it.

Now, I remember why reasonable folks stop posting here. Feel free to return to your regular programming!

eaglefly
10-15-2012, 06:00 PM
7576 is correct. Future 401(k) contributions of any kind are "TBD" (To Be Determined). Despite the 1113 having a specific claimed 401(k) conversion, it would appear AA pilots are being "sent to bed without dinner" for misbehaving and not capitulating to a grotesquely sub-standard offer.

eaglefly
10-15-2012, 06:07 PM
Now, I remember why reasonable folks stop posting here. Feel free to return to your regular programming!

Feel free to slither back under your rock.

The first time you slithered out from under your rock, there was a contract offer imminent and subject to debate. Then when that was no longer an issue you disappeared. Now, once again within weeks (or perhaps even days) of that happening again.......guess who's back.

You have clearly been dispatched by your handlers for duty again Mr. M and your duplicity is more then obvious. :cool:

block30
10-15-2012, 06:34 PM
Now, I remember why reasonable folks stop posting here. Feel free to return to your regular programming!

Quit acting like a baby because we can easily tell you are a LIAR. And what's with the rash of your little lying cronies showing up here lately?

As if we couldn't tell. :rolleyes:

Go back to your desk job and keep blaming the real pilots because that's what you cling to.

Sliceback
10-15-2012, 06:40 PM
OK T58, tell us how much we'll be getting eff. Nov 1st????

The fact is the answer is "uh.., uh.., uh...", which is exactly the point of this thread.

Iowa Farm Boy
10-16-2012, 05:40 AM
I've worked for AMR for 13 yrs and learned long ago that anything not in black and white restrictive language is meaningless to them. The words "may," "best efforts;" and my personal favorites "at the companies discretion" are meaningless and a waste of trees, ink, and negotiating time.

In this case "TBD" are worth as much.

Waiting for and counting on AMR's benevolence is nothing but foolhardy.

justjack
10-16-2012, 08:23 AM
Now, I remember why reasonable folks stop posting here. Feel free to return to your regular programming!

If by "reasonable" you actually mean "yes men" who literally aid management in their shell game negotiation tactics- yes, there is no point in posting here. Too many people have lived through too many bankruptcies to fall for the SOS.

Mason32
10-20-2012, 03:30 PM
Now, I remember why reasonable folks stop posting here. Feel free to return to your regular programming!


Is it so hard for you to grasp the concept that it doesn't matter what is on the table... as of Nov 1st, we have no contributions into any retirement program for our pilots.

I don't expect you to realize this since you aren't even a pilot here; but we've had thousands of proposals on the table since 2003. They mean squat unless they're signed.

They are correct when they say we have no retirement contributions effective Nov 1st. You seem to be going out of your way to mislead and misinform. Why is that?

Sliceback
10-20-2012, 04:08 PM
A better question might be - do management pilots still get retirement contributions eff. Nov 1st? That might be where he's getting confused.

GW258
10-23-2012, 05:36 AM
A better question might be - do management pilots still get retirement contributions eff. Nov 1st? That might be where he's getting confused.

The BK lawyers will petition the court to pay "retention bonuses" to management who stays through the BK process. It will be a nice windfall.

Then you will see them rehired with nice "post BK new company stock options".

They knew a long time ago that you don't plan retirement on tradition retirement plans. They use those plans in BK court to get the books clear after they run the company in the ground.

AA is the last to do this Harvard Business School trick.

B757200ER
10-24-2012, 08:06 PM
What was it Glenn Tilton from UAL got? $40 million? I'm sure Horton & Co are just hanging on until then...

Night Hawk 6
11-04-2012, 05:46 AM
Only 19 retirees announced for 1 November. This is somewhat surprising considering what will happen to the B-fund, however it is also indicative of the mindset of so much of the AA pilot force, trusting their financial future to a promise rather than facing the facts of the current situation. There are plenty of reasons to keep working especially for those who have already lost much of their retirement to divorce, failed second businesses, live pay check to pay check, etc. There are many though who have north of 1.5 million in their b-fund and are willing to risk that to the variables of the stock market between now and next spring and must have no concern over the yet to be determined administrative costs, estimated to be as much as 5 percent, of dispersing the funds some time within the next 12 months. ( Yes I know that management said it would be done in May but that is AA management speaking.) Hopefully it will all work out to their advantage.

Tomahawk58
11-04-2012, 06:07 AM
Only 19 retirees announced for 1 November. This is somewhat surprising considering what will happen to the B-fund, however it is also indicative of the mindset of so much of the AA pilot force, trusting their financial future to a promise rather than facing the facts of the current situation. There are plenty of reasons to keep working especially for those who have already lost much of their retirement to divorce, failed second businesses, live pay check to pay check, etc. There are many though who have north of 1.5 million in their b-fund and are willing to risk that to the variables of the stock market between now and next spring and must have no concern over the yet to be determined administrative costs, estimated to be as much as 5 percent, of dispersing the funds some time within the next 12 months. ( Yes I know that management said it would be done in May but that is AA management speaking.) Hopefully it will all work out to their advantage.

Respectfully, I don't follow the logic here. Currently, the B Fund is 100 percent invested in equities so the same variability exist today as it will tomorrow. AMRIS has done a good job of managing the B Fund, but the option is there to have the funds activity managed within the 401k or another financial entity of the pilot's choosing. As to why so few choose to retire, clearly they weren't concerned that their retirement was going away, or no future contributions would be forthcoming.

Why is the argument always trotted out about failed marriages, businesses, etc. is it possible that senior pilots, in fact most pilots enjoy their chosen profession and the company they work for. That also means they want to see improvements, but the fact remains that most have chosen to stay for more than just the usual reasons thrown out. AA is and will continue to be a great company whether we merge with US, any other carrier or choose to go it alone.

Night Hawk 6
11-04-2012, 08:28 PM
Respectfully, I don't follow the logic here. Currently, the B Fund is 100 percent invested in equities so the same variability exist today as it will tomorrow. AMRIS has done a good job of managing the B Fund, but the option is there to have the funds activity managed within the 401k or another financial entity of the pilot's choosing. As to why so few choose to retire, clearly they weren't concerned that their retirement was going away, or no future contributions would be forthcoming.

Why is the argument always trotted out about failed marriages, businesses, etc. is it possible that senior pilots, in fact most pilots enjoy their chosen profession and the company they work for. That also means they want to see improvements, but the fact remains that most have chosen to stay for more than just the usual reasons thrown out. AA is and will continue to be a great company whether we merge with US, any other carrier or choose to go it alone.
Up until now the b-fund had a 90 day lock-in for those under 60, and a 60 day look-back for those retiring after age 60. This allowed some protection if the market took a nose dive as you were about to retire. As you say the fund is all in equities and very vulnerable to a dramatic market fluctuation. Pilots will no longer have any protection and should the market be in the dumps as the funds are being liqudated, well the pilots are now just along for the ride. You are correct in stating that pilots have a great job, one that indeed is tough to walk away from, but I dare say not very many will tell you they enjoy the company they work for. Assuming you are a commercial airline pilot, employed for someone other than SWA, can you say you enjoy working for the criminals running the other legacy carriers?

full of luv
11-05-2012, 12:42 AM
Up until now the b-fund had a 90 day lock-in for those under 60, and a 60 day look-back for those retiring after age 60. This allowed some protection if the market took a nose dive as you were about to retire. As you say the fund is all in equities and very vulnerable to a dramatic market fluctuation. Pilots will no longer have any protection and should the market be in the dumps as the funds are being liqudated, well the pilots are now just along for the ride. You are correct in stating that pilots have a great job, one that indeed is tough to walk away from, but I dare say not very many will tell you they enjoy the company they work for. Assuming you are a commercial airline pilot, employed for someone other than SWA, can you say you enjoy working for the criminals running the other legacy carriers?

Ask the recently acquired Airtran pilots how they feel about SWA.... Bottom line is every company has it's warts. All pilots think they will retire early (or others should) in their 30's and 40's, somewhere around their 50's, their lifestyle is set, kids are gone, etc and they settle in for the "best" years of their career. If a pilot hasn't left AA by now, they are in for the long haul. Best of luck to AA in getting back to an industry leading contract.

Kapitanleutnant
11-05-2012, 01:42 AM
Starting to sound like C&R around here.... LOL

K

Night Hawk 6
11-05-2012, 05:47 AM
Starting to sound like C&R around here.... LOL

K
How did you guess? As you probably know APA dislikes C&R for the diversity of opinions it airs and APA has seen to it that those with the most experience with the airline, retirees, are denied access, So much for open and honest debate.

Night Hawk 6
11-07-2012, 07:53 AM
B-fund alert: Post election, Obama wins, stock market dive. Yep hanging around may still pay off for those with north of 12,000 b-fund units but my bet is there are alot of uneasy senior AA pilots today. Good luck guys because you have lost what little control you had with your b-fund and are just along for the ride. At least there are 19 happy faces today. Oh yes the 19 retirees will get their funds based on the 90 day or 60 day values, regardless of how low the market goes, diluting the fund even further.

Gallifrey
11-07-2012, 10:34 AM
Don't forget though, the value of the dollar is up :)

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch)—The dollar rose to a two-month high against a basket of major currencies on Wednesday as U.S. equity markets tanked.

Worries about Greece also put pressure on the euro.