Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Kapitanleutnant
10-26-2012, 08:07 AM
Just wondering aloud how this might affect the likes of Qatar, Emirates and Etihad with some of the US pilots flying at those airlines.....

American Airlines: We expect to hire or recall about 2,500 pilots over the next five years | Airline Biz Blog (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/10/american-airlines-we-expect-to-hire-or-recall-about-2500-pilots-over-the-next-five-years.html/)

K


gcpilot
10-26-2012, 11:53 AM
Prior to working for airlines like Emirates, Qatar; I thought the airlines needed some kind of "clearance" stating the pilots give up their seniority and rights to be recalled.

The Dominican
10-26-2012, 12:57 PM
There is a good argument to be made for jumping ship to DAL, even a better argument to go to UPS or FDX, but AA??? I have a feeling that maybe a couple dozen of the younger pilots (40 and bellow) might take leap of faith, but I seriously doubt that you will see a large exodus, for pilots mid 40's and over I would be very surprised if you see more than a handful do it.


EYBusdriver
10-26-2012, 01:38 PM
Once in the expat game and you've received your command it's hard to move. Maybe some of the first officers may think about it, but if you are a wide body captain making between 14K and 18K per month it would be a bit difficult to go back to the right seat at AA. We have some ex DL, AA and UACAL guys here and none that I've spoken to are going back.

captjns
10-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Once in the expat game and you've received your command it's hard to move. Maybe some of the first officers may think about it, but if you are a wide body captain making between 14K and 18K per month it would be a bit difficult to go back to the right seat at AA. We have some ex DL, AA and UACAL guys here and none that I've spoken to are going back.

I’ve been an expat for the better part of 22 years with a short stint back in the US 14 years ago. My only regret is that I returned to a startup carrier in the US which eventually went bust. In the early years of my travels around the world, I passed on my recall rights to stay abroad. No regrets on that note as we all know what has happened to pay and benefits with many US carriers. However I was single at the time and the choice was easier. Many foreign carriers offer decent housing with good medical and education tuition benefits too. However it’s still an awful lot to uproot a family, move them half way round the world, and immerse them in a whole new culture with restrictions on one’s life style. It works for some… and well not for others.

Captains and F/Os overseas may think long hard about returning to the US to a minimum wage job without benefits with plenty of uncertainties. First Officers at many airlines abroad earn more than captains at some US carriers... with benefits housing and other perks. Some positions are non-commuting positions and thus may be hard on family life. Many may consider the potential for saving money, rapid upgrades, and the experience of living abroad outweigh taking a job in the US... even either DAL or UACAL.

I would think it pretty hard for a first officer at, let’s say EK, who is within a year or two of the left seat, earning good money to return to home at a good airline with the prospects of earning pay less than what cabin crew earn abroad, with the prospects of delaying the upgrade for another 10 plus years… and with the risk of furlough. Perhaps not the best career move.

A pilot is far more marketable globally with a couple of years of command under their belt. Command can lead to other opportunities in the BBJ arena too.

Other than living in the US, I don’t see the advantage of returning to a job with an entry level pay check with little or no job security.

Typhoonpilot
10-26-2012, 09:57 PM
I actively encourage any American pilot under age 40 to make the move to DAL when they start hiring. DAL made $1 billion last quarter; they have a very good contract now; and they will be hiring 500 pilots per year minimum for the next decade or more. I'd put a realistic upgrade time on narrow body equipment at DAL at around 7-10 years for an early 2013 hire. In that time one could easily fly widebody F.O. for many years. Not a bad living with their current pay scales.

If I was age 40 or under that is what I would do and for many of the reasons that JNS spells out. Even with only 25 years left one could have a very good career at DAL.

There are very few expat gigs that are good for the long term. When the growth stops at these places they will likely become miserable places to work. For now, with the explosive growth, they are exciting places to be.

We have over 300 Americans at Emirates. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 50-100 leave to go back to the States when the hiring starts.



Typhoonpilot

Kapitanleutnant
10-28-2012, 12:10 AM
Couldn't agree more TP. I've flown with several young US F/o's in their early 30's and they both said essentially this: 35 more years is MUCH more do-able in the US (home country) vs at EK/Dubai.

I too think the US airline hiring is poised to take off hiring-wise as each airline will need to hire at least several hundred a year just to maintain zero growth... And again that is for each major airline.

Time to the left seat in the US industry could be around 7 years for new hires in this initial wave.

So let's see..... Left seat on a nice 777 at EK flying 92 hours plus a month, and residing in Dubai (not all that bad mind you!).... Or being an FO in your home country in your early 30's with the prospect of left seat in 7-ish years at a major with arguably better contracts (sans AA at present) and probably having 20 plus years in the left seat... All in your native land!

For those younger gents, it seems a no brainier to me... But that's just me!

Certainly there are many things to consider with this possibility and what is good for one is not so for another.

Kap

The Dominican
10-28-2012, 05:29 AM
Agreed, the interesting question would be how many would go for AA?

captjns
10-28-2012, 06:52 AM
Given the fact the airlines were on many hiring sprees which also lead to many a furlough spree too.

I agree given the choice a young FO may be better off in the US. It would be a hard choice for a $15,000 a month skipper to return home for a $40,000 per year position. One may never recover the lost income by returning to the US to the majors.

Tough decision either way.... especially when there are families involved in the equation.

Typhoonpilot
10-28-2012, 09:02 AM
Given the fact the airlines were on many hiring sprees which also lead to many a furlough spree too.

I agree given the choice a young FO may be better off in the US. It would be a hard choice for a $15,000 a month skipper to return home for a $40,000 per year position. One may never recover the lost income by returning to the US to the majors.

Tough decision either way.... especially when there are families involved in the equation.


DAL year one pay is $62,000 with the new contract. Not great, but at least liveable. Second year on a narrowbody is in the 80s. Someone hired early in the wave should be widebdoy F.O. by 3rd year and then it's easily over 100K. That's if the world doesn't implode of course.

At least this time the hiring isn't for growth, it's just pure attrition. If there is any growth then it's a bonus. If there is any downsizing it would have to be pretty significant to result in furloughs.

If I was under 40 I'd very likely take the risk.



TP

RemoveB4flght
10-28-2012, 09:10 AM
I have been tossing around the idea over the last year, as the FO you are describing in the hypotheticals is me. The question is does one go at the first available opportunity, or wait for the upgrade here first, which is probably less than a year out. Having been through two furloughs, the prospect of scrambling for a job is not very attractive, and having the minimums for an expat narrow body command (say one of those juicy asian contracts) to fall back on is a great ace in the hole.

Also, how does my widebody, international, etops, etc. experience stack up against the guys with the RJ PIC time when it comes to interviewing at the big D... I have several of the big iron type ratings, but maybe they want the guys who have been in the trenches and may seem more grateful for a shot at the big leagues?

Anyways the new few years should be pretty interesting...

pilotrob23
10-29-2012, 02:07 AM
Same boat, early thirties, been in Dubai almost a year, and wife and I have had the conversation whether or not we want to go back. The kids love it here, learning multiple languages, and have already vacationed to Europe. The flying is great (experience, plane, destinations) and everything is paid for, all the way up to the dry cleaning. To go back and start at the bottom, with the track record of the U.S. industry the past couple decades can make you nervous. Is it worth it just to be home? I guess we are still in the honeymoon aspect of the job, because thirty years here is not really want we want either. I would say SW, UPS, or I hear FedEx is losing the mail contract, so no more 5 year wait?! But, it will be a waiting game, and we are taking it slow. An upgrade on the 777 is a nice carrot down the road, and I cringe thinking about commuting and being back on the bottom of a list again.

pokey9554
10-29-2012, 04:10 AM
Same boat, early thirties, been in Dubai almost a year, and wife and I have had the conversation whether or not we want to go back. The kids love it here, learning multiple languages, and have already vacationed to Europe. The flying is great (experience, plane, destinations) and everything is paid for, all the way up to the dry cleaning. To go back and start at the bottom, with the track record of the U.S. industry the past couple decades can make you nervous. Is it worth it just to be home? I guess we are still in the honeymoon aspect of the job, because thirty years here is not really want we want either. I would say SW, UPS, or I hear FedEx is losing the mail contract, so no more 5 year wait?! But, it will be a waiting game, and we are taking it slow. An upgrade on the 777 is a nice carrot down the road, and I cringe thinking about commuting and being back on the bottom of a list again.

At the very least, come back for me. XOXO

I wouldn't be able to mentally justify working for the wages and conditions of some of the US legacies. I don't fit the DL profile, and back side of the clock cargo can send you to an early grave. That leaves WN. I think PilotRob and I are tired of reading rejection letters. I'm hoping my company needs a PilotRob when you come back.

Typhoonpilot
10-29-2012, 04:15 AM
All this is purely my opinion. I wouldn't leave for United, SWA, USAirways, or AA right now for various reasons of pay and uncertainty. I probably wouldn't leave for UPS with their abysmal first year pay. I'm really only saying DAL and maybe Fedex right now. Fedex being a non-starter with the residence requirement until that changes. DAL's new contract and attrition are what make it stand out from the others.

Clearly it would be best to be at the beginning of the wave for seniority purposes, but within one or two years should still be okay over the long run. Yes, it would be best to leave after getting 500-1000 PIC just in case you need that time down the road.

It's an individual choice, but I can tell you that there is no way most people can make it much past 10-15 years in the desert. It just becomes too stressful with ageing parents back home; adolescent kids who deserve a taste of American culture in their high school years; plus thoughts of how you are going to get retiree health care; etc.



TP

Kapitanleutnant
10-29-2012, 04:23 AM
PilotRob....

All valid points and one which will take a lot of heartfelt thought before making the jump either way. I can certainly see the dilemma of all considering this.

Re the Fedex contract, they may indeed lose it and I hear UPS is now also in the running for it. If Fedex loses it outright, I wouldn't be surprised to see some furloughs there. But, rumor has it that the US Gov't may give half the USPS to each carrier. I've also heard that Fedex will try to repeal the 5 year clause regarding expat pilots flying the US Mail due to lack of qualified pilots to fill their 75-some odd 767's, 757's and 777's. Not sure how many of those are for growth vs replacement but I'm sure some are for increasing the fleet count... eg, hiring!

I suppose it really boils down the old bucket theory... whichever one is filled first!

Kap

pilotrob23
10-29-2012, 04:42 AM
Thank you for the info! I still have a few years out here at least, and depending on which day of the week, I could go either way of staying or going home. I know it is a tough industry and has been tough for many people, so I will certainly not complain on having this kind of dilemma. I grew up a SW kid, and wouldn't mind being there at the end of the day, but I am interested to see how the hiring progresses back home in the coming years, especially after this election. And thanks Pokey, miss ya buddy! Hope all is well out there! Wife and I are waiting for you to come out, especially in July! Dubai is wonderful that time of year! Safe flying all!

Probe
10-30-2012, 03:06 AM
I can go back to UCAL now if I want, but after 4 years of contract work I much prefer the job overseas. I know contract flying varies a lot, but the narrowbody stuff in Asia is so easy I can't imagine sitting on ground stop for 8 hours going to EWR or La Garbage ever again. I almost bust a gut every time a Chinese FO complains about a 25 minute ATC delay.

I guess if going back to a legacy carrier is ever a step up, I will go back. Until then I will bang out my 1 days trips, enjoy being home most nights, working with young enthusiastic co-workers.

All that being said, it is nice to have an ace in the whole back home if something bad happens.

UPDRAFT
10-30-2012, 11:50 PM
All the positive aspects of living in your home country aside and thinking about the day to day professional life.............

-Leave the brand new WBs to fly a 10 yr old 717 at DL. 4/5 legs per day, running from gate to gate with your rollerboard. Get some seniority and start flying the guppy, 3/4 legs per day. Get more seniority and get the 30 yr. old 75/76 with round dials. 777, forget about it! they have 18, you won't see one til your walking with a cain.

- 4 days on/ 3 days off.

-FedEx/UPS - they pay well... for shortening your life span.

- Drive to work.

It doesn't sound very appealing but its just one aspect of the overall consideration.

PILOTGUY
11-12-2012, 05:51 AM
I am with UPDRAFT. The thought of being home in the States is a decent thought, but I miss it less and less each day with the BS I see or read in the news.
-old planes, multi-day legs, NOT flying international, crappy food, crappy service on the plane, FA..umm.. issues, and a HUGE % in taxes.

Stay here, upgrade in less than 2 more years, everything paid for or taken care of for you, a VERY large contribution from EK for retirement, and a 400k (currently) in the Marina that the company will pay for entirely in less than 10 years which then turns into a nice additional nest egg.

I will stick with one Karachi turn, one Nice, and 3 Hong Kong as opposed to going back and having most of my layovers be in some crap hole town in a crap hole hotel.

Almost $600 profit 1st half......add on a nice bonus next year too.

CriticalMach
11-12-2012, 06:24 AM
I am with UPDRAFT. The thought of being home in the States is a decent thought, but I miss it less and less each day with the BS I see or read in the news.
-old planes, multi-day legs, NOT flying international, crappy food, crappy service on the plane, FA..umm.. issues, and a HUGE % in taxes.

Stay here, upgrade in less than 2 more years, everything paid for or taken care of for you, a VERY large contribution from EK for retirement, and a 400k (currently) in the Marina that the company will pay for entirely in less than 10 years which then turns into a nice additional nest egg.

I will stick with one Karachi turn, one Nice, and 3 Hong Kong as opposed to going back and having most of my layovers be in some crap hole town in a crap hole hotel.

Almost $600 profit 1st half......add on a nice bonus next year too.


Tell this to pilots here In America and there only excuse is "I have kids and I would never go to sand box and yet they want to live in PHx and LAS."

SUX4U
11-12-2012, 08:38 AM
Tell this to pilots here In America and there only excuse is "I have kids and I would never go to sand box and yet they want to live in PHx and LAS."

Errrr, PHX/LAS and The Middle East, while both are hot and desert climates are worlds apart as for as calling it home. I live in the desert South West, and have been to the Middle East a hand full of times as well as visiting friends at EK. Yes I can tolerate the heat and climate... but I think what those pilots are telling you is the fact that we dont want to live in such cities for reasons other then just the climate.

Joachim
11-12-2012, 09:04 AM
Tell this to pilots here In America and there only excuse is "I have kids and I would never go to sand box and yet they want to live in PHx and LAS."

...where their wives and daughters are treated like normal people.

UPTme
11-12-2012, 02:14 PM
Until then I will bang out my 1 days trips, enjoy being home most nights, working with young enthusiastic co-workers.


I see what you did there.

CriticalMach
11-12-2012, 05:04 PM
Errrr, PHX/LAS and The Middle East, while both are hot and desert climates are worlds apart as for as calling it home. I live in the desert South West, and have been to the Middle East a hand full of times as well as visiting friends at EK. Yes I can tolerate the heat and climate... but I think what those pilots are telling you is the fact that we dont want to live in such cities for reasons other then just the climate.


They are the same pilots that have never left the states to begins with.

captjns
11-12-2012, 09:25 PM
Living overseas is like staying at someone else’s home. One needs to adapt, not assimilate to their cultures and practices. Without a doubt a period of adjustment is required, whether the pilot is fancy free and foot loose and perhaps more so is a family is involved.

Let’s face it… greater opportunities, with greater security, terms and conditions and career progression exist beyond the borders of the US.

Sure... DAL looks great on paper... but how many that apply will be hired. Of those hired is there furlough protection? At the end of te day, how enforceable will the furlough protection clause be??? outside the classroom so to say.

After being treated as a professional and with respect for an overseas carrier, repatriating to a US carrier may be difficult and disappointing. Many will reflect… “Gee this is not how I was treated with “X Airlines” Overseas… not to mention respectable salary with provident funds, housing, travel allowances for immediate family members, usually in business class, descent per-diem.

aa73
11-13-2012, 05:21 AM
Please remember that it's AMR, not AA, advertising 2500 new hires. These may not be AA Pilots flying AA airplanes: they COULD be new hire pilots flying AA Passengers. Big difference, and central to our battle today.

Senior Skipper
11-13-2012, 08:30 AM
Please remember that it's AMR, not AA, advertising 2500 new hires. These may not be AA Pilots flying AA airplanes: they COULD be new hire pilots flying AA Passengers. Big difference, and central to our battle today.

Are you guys thinking 2000 of those new hires will be at Eagle?

CriticalMach
11-13-2012, 12:30 PM
Living overseas is like staying at someone else’s home. One needs to adapt, not assimilate to their cultures and practices. Without a doubt a period of adjustment is required, whether the pilot is fancy free and foot loose and perhaps more so is a family is involved.

Let’s face it… greater opportunities, with greater security, terms and conditions and career progression exist beyond the borders of the US.

Sure... DAL looks great on paper... but how many that apply will be hired. Of those hired is there furlough protection? At the end of te day, how enforceable will the furlough protection clause be??? outside the classroom so to say.

After being treated as a professional and with respect for an overseas carrier, repatriating to a US carrier may be difficult and disappointing. Many will reflect… “Gee this is not how I was treated with “X Airlines” Overseas… not to mention respectable salary with provident funds, housing, travel allowances for immediate family members, usually in business class, descent per-diem.

Well said.

dckozak
11-18-2012, 12:17 PM
PilotRob....


Re the Fedex contract, they may indeed lose it and I hear UPS is now also in the running for it. If Fedex loses it outright, I wouldn't be surprised to see some furloughs there. But, rumor has it that the US Gov't may give half the USPS to each carrier. I've also heard that Fedex will try to repeal the 5 year clause regarding expat pilots flying the US Mail due to lack of qualified pilots to fill their 75-some odd 767's, 757's and 777's. Not sure how many of those are for growth vs replacement but I'm sure some are for increasing the fleet count... eg, hiring! ...............
Kap

I'll add a bit about Fedex. We haven't heard enough about the postal contract to suggest, either way, that we might loose it completely. Rumor suggests we will not have it all when its said and done. That said, there is no communication to suggest that we would furlough even if we lost the whole enchilada. In the same vein, I have not heard (not to say its not out there, but I haven't heard) about Fedex trying to have the 5 year expat clause repealed. I hope its true, I too think its unfair, But I'v heard nada about it. We are currently hiring mainly for attrition and its assumed it will pick up at the 5 year December anniversary of age 65.

As far as QOL issues at Fedex (or UPS for that matter), night flying is definitely a part of the program and there is no sugar coating the reality of it. That said, it is less and less of our total flying and can be avoided after some seniority is obtained. Also our contract provides some protection from the back side of the clock affects. Most, but not all, night hub turns involve one in and one out on a 4 or 5 night schedule. Not all schedules are good, but as in any airline, your seniority will allow you (eventually) avoid the worst. Our international flying would seem very similar to an Expat flying in the Middle East. This is becoming a greater part of our "normal" relative to domestic nights.

The real gem of Fedex is the ability to live where you want and commute easily to your trips. For you living overseas, if getting back to the US is only part of the equation, consider this. At Fedex you could return to were you want to live, MSP, LAS, BOS, MIA where ever. With some understanding of our fleet and its schedules, you could bid equipment that lays over near your place of residence. At the very least, start a trip without having to go to your domicile that may be nearer to you than the deadhead commute you would have done if you lived in domicile. Many trips have a deadhead at one or both ends.

Last point. I don't think Fedex is desperate for qualified pilots to fly the 75, 76, 77. Until the greater industry starts to hire, we have no problems getting qualed pilots to apply. Be warned, if you haven't read the minimum quails at Fedex, not withstanding the 5 years postal requirement, you must have 1000 TPIC to be considered. Lots of intl time at EK or others as FO may make you a great candidate, but (without the 1000 TPIC) you don't meet Fedex mins, be warned. :(

Kapitanleutnant
12-23-2012, 09:01 PM
Great post, DCK! Thanks for the info.

What exactly is "T" PIC? Not heard that one before....

Kap

Beech90
12-23-2012, 09:12 PM
TPIC=Turbine Pilot In Command Time.