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View Full Version : Good plane under 1.5m?


Fourpaw
01-10-2013, 09:17 AM
Just looking for thoughts. Originally, the company had their mindset on the phenom 100 but after a quick 5 year cost break-down, it might not be the best, cost effective solution. Currently we operate the Sr22 Cirrus, so this first jump into the turbine world needs to be a smart decision.

Here's the specs:

1000nm typical service area. Doesn't mind a fuel stop.
3-5 people with pilot 9/10 times.
Must be turbo prop or jet
1.5m flexible budget
Preferable two engines

My thoughts were King air 200 or c90 with blackhawk conversion.

Thoughts?


jerm879
01-10-2013, 10:42 AM
Citation II

dapper993
01-10-2013, 10:45 AM
2000 or newer beechjet or 400xp


KiloAlpha
01-10-2013, 10:52 AM
King Air 200 (big cabin)

Conquest II w/ -10 engines (fast and efficient, but smallish cabin)

HeloDrvr
01-10-2013, 01:06 PM
What kind of airports do you frequent?

BoilerUP
01-10-2013, 04:09 PM
While cost of capital is very important, it is impossible to understate the difference in operating cost between a Cirrus SR22 and, say, a Phenom 100...and the operating cost delta between a Phenom 100 and a 25+ year old Citation II (or any flavor Beechjet) is almost as staggering.

Lots of people are lured into the turbine world by a cheap acquisition price thinking "that'll buy a lot of gas", then get sticker shock at the first month's fuel bills, ****ed off at the first unscheduled maintenance event, and sticker shock again after the first scheduled maintenance inspection.

Based on the stated mission and the aircraft you are currently operating, I think a TBM700C2 would be the best option. Yeah its only single engine, but it has long legs, good cruise speeds, **very economical to operate**, with the capability to carry 6 people a fair ways. A Meridian wouldn't be a bad upgrade option either, but they don't have good useful load, so anything more than 3 people in the plane and you're seriously cutting into range.

If you want a twin turboprop, I'd skip all the 90s and go straight to a B200 but take a look at a Turbo Commander with Dash 10 conversion.

If you're thinking of going from a Cirrus straight to a twinjet...you are going to have to do a LOT of legwork to make SURE the company knows what they are getting into financially. In that case, a CJ1 is probably the best most economical option...ESPECIALLY if you have any plans on flying it single pilot.

Ewfflyer
01-10-2013, 04:37 PM
Tbm 700 C2 is probably out of the price range, but would fit perfectly.

2nd the classic King Air 200.

Operating costs are going to be at least triple per NM over the cirrus, prepare to explain that!

FlyerJosh
01-10-2013, 06:25 PM
BoilerUp is spot on and a very valuable source of info. After reading through your other post about duty/rest, it's doubly important that you educate your principle about the realities of going from a piston single into the turbine world. If you don't know them yourself, find some knowledgable people who can help you walk that path. if you can't find them here, PPW members and NBAA might be valuable resources.

The MX costs to overhaul the engines on an older Citation or even a King Air could pay for a LOT of flying in a Cirrus.

IdahoFlyer
01-10-2013, 06:54 PM
Unfortunately, I think too many would be owners think that $1.5m will get them a long way. The reality is that a $1.5m turboprop or jet is most likely not very new and will probably cost a lot to maintain and operate. So just be sure that the potential owners understand the difference between acquisition cost and operating cost. Moving from a Cirrus to a turboprop or jet is a big move from an operating cost standpoint.
We just bought a very, very nice B200 with reasonably low hours and great avionics for $2.3m, and it is 17 years old.

JamesNoBrakes
01-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Figure a few thousand a day to operate, whether you fly it or not. I've run the numbers.

pokey9554
01-10-2013, 07:25 PM
A Citation II on 100% programs won't be too bad to operate. Make sure your boss/owner knows the sticker price is the cheap part. Using the thing is expensive. Also, not using the thing is expensive. A Citation will run you about $2,500/hour out the door. That is, if you get a good one.

The Conquest II with -10 engines is very impressive for the price. PM me if want more info on the Conquest. I can put you on a good one and put you in contact with a good source of info.

FlyJSH
01-10-2013, 08:41 PM
A Citation II on 100% programs won't be too bad to operate. Make sure your boss/owner knows the sticker price is the cheap part. Using the thing is expensive. Also, not using the thing is expensive. A Citation will run you about $2,500/hour out the door. That is, if you get a good one.

The Conquest II with -10 engines is very impressive for the price. PM me if want more info on the Conquest. I can put you on a good one and put you in contact with a good source of info.

+ 1

I first thought about a 414 or 421. Nice one can be had for about a third of what they are willing to spend, but if they insist on turbine I vote Conquest.

More about their mission; are they just wanting more seats or do they want more speed too?


Oh, if you do go for a 400 series, I strongly suggest getting vortex generators. They help a bit with payload, but make a big difference in safety... IIRC it dropped stall speeds about 10 kts.

JamesNoBrakes
01-11-2013, 03:51 AM
Make sure your boss/owner knows the sticker price is the cheap part. Using the thing is expensive. Also, not using the thing is expensive. A Citation will run you about $2,500/hour out the door.

Bingo.

Also, I'd consider a TBM or Malibu/Jetprop type as a significant "step up". 300+kts (TBM) is pretty fast. Only one engine to rebuild.

Systemized
01-11-2013, 05:06 PM
Here's the specs:

1000nm typical service area. Doesn't mind a fuel stop.
3-5 people with pilot 9/10 times.
Must be turbo prop or jet
1.5m flexible budget
Preferable two engines



Thoughts?

What about the Citation I with the FJ44 engines?

pitch mode
01-12-2013, 05:26 AM
Get a beat on when their next C checks or engine overhauls are due and get a ballpark $ for those as well.

RU4692
01-20-2013, 12:09 PM
For my money I'd get a Beechjet 400A or an XP if the initial acquisition costs are appropriate. if you looking in the turboprop, you really cant beat a BE-200.

Beechjets operate anywhere between 1800-2300 an hour depending on how fast you fly, and if your in a good location with access to shop parts/labor.

They are very versatitle aircraft, and crust much faster than citations (.72 vs.55) with comparable payloads. i.e Cessna 500/550 CJ1 etc.

My 2c.

atpcliff
01-20-2013, 04:41 PM
TBM 700....I think you still need to buy a used one to get it under 1.5mill?

DrangonStar45
01-23-2013, 03:58 PM
Just looking for thoughts. Originally, the company had their mindset on the phenom 100 but after a quick 5 year cost break-down, it might not be the best, cost effective solution. Currently we operate the Sr22 Cirrus, so this first jump into the turbine world needs to be a smart decision.

Here's the specs:

1000nm typical service area. Doesn't mind a fuel stop.
3-5 people with pilot 9/10 times.
Must be turbo prop or jet
1.5m flexible budget
Preferable two engines

My thoughts were King air 200 or c90 with blackhawk conversion.

Thoughts?

C90 might be a little tight for 5 adults. I'd go with a B200. If the company is flexible on the cost, get a 200 with -52 engines for some speed.

Ewfflyer
01-24-2013, 07:52 AM
TBM 700....I think you still need to buy a used one to get it under 1.5mill?

Most likely you will get a 700A or 700B. For the added gross weight you really need a 700C2 for that many pax, but it cold be close to the $1.5 mark. Brand new 850's are $3.4-ish right now

Fourpaw
01-25-2013, 09:32 AM
Well, talked to him this morning and he still seems pretty dead set on the Phenom 100. His thoughts are get one brand new ~3.5m and claim 50% depreciation on taxes so he feels as if he got it for 1/2.


I'm still skeptical. This is a new flight department, straight into a multi million dollar jet seems risky.

BoilerUP
01-25-2013, 09:45 AM
Capital cost is high on a Phenom 100 (relative to others), but as far as jets go the operating cost is fairly low and that tends to be what kills operators.

They think the acquisition cost delta on an older plane will buy their gas & pay their maintenance, but when those big bills start rolling in their eyes get VERY big.

Systemized
01-25-2013, 10:37 AM
Well, talked to him this morning and he still seems pretty dead set on the Phenom 100. His thoughts are get one brand new ~3.5m and claim 50% depreciation on taxes so he feels as if he got it for 1/2.


I'm still skeptical. This is a new flight department, straight into a multi million dollar jet seems risky.

For that price range I would spring for a CJ2/+. I fly a CJ and the plane never breaks. We launch on very short notice all the time and rarely have maintenance issues. From what I've heard support on the Embraers is not great. Passengers like the 100s because of the enclosed lav which is just a curtain on the CJs but from what I've heard the 100s are louder and less comfortable.

jbt1407
01-25-2013, 10:37 PM
How about an MU-2? Great bang for the buck

Bucking Bar
01-26-2013, 06:04 AM
Here is a tool that we use at the early stages of our corporate aircraft acquisition searches:

https://www.conklindd.com/CDALibrary/ACCostSummary.aspx

Good suggestions on this thread.

The original poster did not explain much about his needs. What is his usual trip length? Cargo ever important? Usually full, or empty? If the Cirrus is working for them, but they need more room, comfort and range, why not throw a executive configured Cessna Caravan into consideration? Without the cargo pod the short fuselage aircraft is a 175 to 190 knot machine and it will carry a Phenom inside (almost).

If I needed to go fast for that price, I'd grab one of the last Sabre 65's built and zip along at nearly 100 knots faster than the Phenom in worlds more comfort and capability. If speed were not an issue, I'd stretch out in a Caravan. Other than "sex appeal" I have not seen a "light jet" that impresses me, although they certainly are improving. Frankly, I'd rather have a Pilatus.

Can't go wrong with a King Air and easy to sell if you decide you want something else.

Fourpaw
03-05-2013, 07:55 AM
Looks like the company is leaning towards a c90GTX. New cost is 3.8 retail. Seems to fit the mission a little bit better.

yawdamp
03-05-2013, 08:51 AM
Shocked no one mentioned the PC12. Comfort of a 200, with the convenience of a lav, and built like a truck. It is only 15-20 kts slower (than 700B) with a ton more MGTW. I have 1500+ hrs on the TBM 300+ hrs on the PC. The PC is hands down a better all around people/cargo mover. Our MX guys disliked the TBM, especially the brakes. They love the PC - they compared it to the likes of a twin otter we had years ago.

UnderOveur
03-05-2013, 10:22 AM
Shocked no one mentioned the PC12.

Beloved by every single owner that has one. I even know one who is in the final stages of buying a King Air but absolutely will NOT part with his Pilatus, he loves it so much.

What it lacks in speed it more than makes up for in roominess, payload, and distance.

What kind of airports do you frequent?

The PC-12 is an especially good choice if planning on flying into unimproved/dirt strips (like the principal's ranch, for instance).


Preferable two engines

Thoughts?

Perhaps speed is the #1 concern here. Not enough info to go on.

VIIPILOT
03-05-2013, 01:41 PM
Ce-650-III.

JamesNoBrakes
03-05-2013, 06:34 PM
Shocked no one mentioned the PC12. Comfort of a 200, with the convenience of a lav, and built like a truck. It is only 15-20 kts slower (than 700B) with a ton more MGTW. I have 1500+ hrs on the TBM 300+ hrs on the PC. The PC is hands down a better all around people/cargo mover. Our MX guys disliked the TBM, especially the brakes. They love the PC - they compared it to the likes of a twin otter we had years ago.
Those tend to be a little pricier than the OPs price range.

jarretk
05-06-2013, 03:15 PM
Ill throw the Lear 31A into the conversation. You can find them for 1 million and up and IMHO its a much better choice than the Beech Jet. I have had 2 pilots, 7 passengers, bags for a 4 day trip, and full fuel and gone 930nm. The range and the baggage compartment (inside the aircraft behind the aft bench seat) are the only con's of the 31A that I have noticed. And I think it looks much better on a ramp than the Phenom

BoilerUP
05-06-2013, 04:31 PM
I have had 2 pilots, 7 passengers, bags for a 4 day trip, and full fuel and gone 930nm.

How much did you land with, and how much of a tailwind did you have? :D

mojo6911
05-06-2013, 04:49 PM
Ill throw the Lear 31A into the conversation. You can find them for 1 million and up and IMHO its a much better choice than the Beech Jet. I have had 2 pilots, 7 passengers, bags for a 4 day trip, and full fuel and gone 930nm. The range and the baggage compartment (inside the aircraft behind the aft bench seat) are the only con's of the 31A that I have noticed. And I think it looks much better on a ramp than the Phenom

What is the fuel burn rate on a 31 vs a Beechjet?

jarretk
05-06-2013, 07:04 PM
We went Dallas to Vegas and fought a 80-120 wind off the nose the entire time, 3:10 en route and landed with roughly 900lbs, so the fuel was getting low but still had a good :45-1 hour. 31A holds a total of 4132lbs with number of 1,500 1,200 800 800 for the 1-4th hour, but in my experience you don't get 4 hours out of her. When we are leveled in cruise at 41-43 we burn around 550 a side, but we keep the power up a bit to hold .78 or so instead of sacrificing speed to get 800lbs an hour. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but a beech jet cant hold but a few passengers and crew at full fuel.

dirtysidedown
05-07-2013, 09:54 AM
We went Dallas to Vegas and fought a 80-120 wind off the nose the entire time, 3:10 en route and landed with roughly 900lbs, so the fuel was getting low but still had a good :45-1 hour. 31A holds a total of 4132lbs with number of 1,500 1,200 800 800 for the 1-4th hour, but in my experience you don't get 4 hours out of her. When we are leveled in cruise at 41-43 we burn around 550 a side, but we keep the power up a bit to hold .78 or so instead of sacrificing speed to get 800lbs an hour. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but a beech jet cant hold but a few passengers and crew at full fuel.
I can fly the Beechjet for 3 hours with 4 pax and some bags, 3.5 with 2 pax.

jerm879
05-07-2013, 05:34 PM
I can fly the Beechjet for 3 hours with 4 pax and some bags, 3.5 with 2 pax.

The 31a is a far better aircraft than the beechjet. I've been flying the 31a only for 4 months now and the thing is awesome. We are at 410 in 20 minutes or less every time if ATC can keep up with us to keep our climb going. We took off a few weeks ago CVG to MIA 8 passengers full fuel straight to 450 no problems they were little dudes and not alot of baggage we were right at max takeoff. Funny thing is I've always thought of Lear pilots as over confident and full of themselves all because of a stupid Lear jet now I understand why the aircraft is a blast to fly.

jarretk
05-07-2013, 07:54 PM
It is a blast to fly, especially for my first jet job. My 2 favorite moments are when ATC lets us climb like we are made to, and when they ask for a good rate of climb ( I always giggle) a bit.

cactipilot
05-08-2013, 03:46 PM
Why don't you think about a step up in to a new cabin class single piston? It'll buy tons more aircraft, brand new even. Malibu Mirage?

mojo6911
05-08-2013, 05:12 PM
Why don't you think about a step up in to a new cabin class single piston? It'll buy tons more aircraft, brand new even. Malibu Mirage?

No way you fit 3 people + enough fuel to go anywhere in a Mirage.

The 31a is a far better aircraft than the beechjet. I've been flying the 31a only for 4 months now and the thing is awesome. We are at 410 in 20 minutes or less every time if ATC can keep up with us to keep our climb going. We took off a few weeks ago CVG to MIA 8 passengers full fuel straight to 450 no problems they were little dudes and not alot of baggage we were right at max takeoff. Funny thing is I've always thought of Lear pilots as over confident and full of themselves all because of a stupid Lear jet now I understand why the aircraft is a blast to fly.


Is the Lear 31 Stage 3?

jerm879
05-08-2013, 06:38 PM
No way you fit 3 people + enough fuel to go anywhere in a Mirage.




Is the Lear 31 Stage 3?

Yes the lear 31A is stage 3 if we are talking about noise compliance?

Fourpaw
05-10-2013, 04:37 AM
No way you fit 3 people + enough fuel to go anywhere in a Mirage.




Is the Lear 31 Stage 3?


Looked at a Miridian...it was pretty small and kind of cheap. I think it might just be the kinds of materials Piper uses but the interior did not feel like it would hold up for 5-10 yrs. plus for a list price of 2.2m with barely any wiggle room, it got taken off the list pretty quick.


Number one is still the new C90GTX.

Dufur2003
05-10-2013, 04:54 AM
Looked at a Miridian...it was pretty small and kind of cheap. I think it might just be the kinds of materials Piper uses but the interior did not feel like it would hold up for 5-10 yrs. plus for a list price of 2.2m with barely any wiggle room, it got taken off the list pretty quick.


Number one is still the new C90GTX.

We operate a E90 king air and on average every 200 hours it goes in the shop for a phase inspection at an average cost of 30k. We fly atleast 400 a year. So that is 60k a year in just standard maintenance/inspections. I'm sure the new KA90GTX will be pretty comparable to that. Its hard to beat a KA, but my bosses are all the time talking about wanting a jet.

STARFISH435
05-10-2013, 10:55 AM
Eclipse 500

FL450
05-12-2013, 08:36 PM
If the owner doesnt mind a 2.5 mil price tag Piaggio Avanti P-180. Goes high, goes fast, quiet, and best cabin out of all the planes mentioned thus far.

MiGBoy
06-13-2013, 06:30 PM
If the owner doesnt mind a 2.5 mil price tag Piaggio Avanti P-180. Goes high, goes fast, quiet, and best cabin out of all the planes mentioned thus far.

Impressive airplane, but the royal hanger queen of hanger queen's. :D

EYBusdriver
06-21-2013, 10:41 AM
About two or thee times a year I buy Lotto, over the week I dream about what I'll do when I win. Do I get GII and accept the high operating costs versus the initial purchase cost or something more expensive but cheaper to run. I'll only be flying off to Costa Rica every three months and the Bahamas on the odd weekend. Or maybe a Turbo Commander or MU2 might be better. Can only dream. :) My budget can afford a thirty year old plus light twin.

creativewebz
07-18-2013, 09:18 AM
Just looking for thoughts. Originally, the company had their mindset on the phenom 100 but after a quick 5 year cost break-down, it might not be the best, cost effective solution. Currently we operate the Sr22 Cirrus, so this first jump into the turbine world needs to be a smart decision.

Here's the specs:

1000nm typical service area. Doesn't mind a fuel stop.
3-5 people with pilot 9/10 times.
Must be turbo prop or jet
1.5m flexible budget
Preferable two engines

My thoughts were King air 200 or c90 with blackhawk conversion.

Thoughts?


You should take a look at an Eclipse.

Cubdriver
07-18-2013, 09:55 AM
Looked at a Miridian...it was pretty small and kind of cheap. I think it might just be the kinds of materials Piper uses but the interior did not feel like it would hold up for 5-10 yrs. plus for a list price of 2.2m with barely any wiggle room, it got taken off the list pretty quick.


Number one is still the new C90GTX.

The Cessna M2 is due out soon and is basically a CJ1 with a Garmin G3000 cockpit. I know a lot about the G3000 and can vouch for how much it improves on singe pilot ops. Check the site for costs, probably $4-5M acquisition, but it sounds right down your alley and would front load the investment rather than have it dollar-dime the owners to death for many years.

fisherpilot
07-18-2013, 10:27 AM
What are lear 35a's going for these days? You can fill the seats, full bags and full fuel and do 4.5 hrs. Great airplane. It is slow and doesn't climb that great ( compared to what I'm used to now in the 60) but it is a workhorse for sure.