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mprinceton26
12-01-2006, 07:29 PM
Hi everybody,



I thought I'd see if anyone was familiar with this school ATP Airline Transport Professionals. LAFrequent flier you actually posted the site and I checked it out and the place looks pretty cool with an awesome price. If the UPT thing doesn't work out for me I'm thinking to go this route.

It seems not to be as pricey as Comair and Mesa. Wonder if these guys are getting hired? Look forward to the feedback.


www.allatps.com (http://www.allatps.com)


Regards,


Michael


pilot_man
12-01-2006, 08:12 PM
Hey man,

Good luck with your choice! I chose ATP myself and I start my training at the DFW location in Jan for the ACPP. If you have any questions let me know I will try and help you answer them as best as possible.



It seems not to be as pricey as Comair and Mesa.

Im not sure what you mean by this...maybe you can explain? As far as I know comair and mesa are only regional airlines and they dont have training programs like this to get your ratings. Like I said thats just as far as I know, if im wrong please forgive me. So far ATP has had 127 of there graduates in the past 12 mos. get hired on with various regional carriers like ExpressJet, Colgan, TSA, Comair, Eagle, and many others.
ATP is an awesome program and I cant wait to start. Hope this helps!

pilot_man

cubanfiredawg
12-01-2006, 08:25 PM
Hey Michael,
I'm currently a student @ ATP. I love it! I started in late Aug. and am about to start my X-countrys before my commercial training. I know of @ least three instructors, (one of which trained me) who have been hired in the last month. I think something like 170+ instructors have been hired this year.
The great thing is that the airlines lower their mins. for ATP, because of the level of training. I too looked @ DCA and others. In the last week @ least four instructors from other schools have looked to get hired @ my location. Most had something like 800TT and only 15 hrs multi. I already have twice as many mulit hours and will have almost 140 + Multi by the time I finish the program in Jan. Most instructors are hired with 500-600 TT to airlines like, American Eagle, Continetial Express, PSA, Sky West, Colgan, and a few others. ATP has been by far the best choice. If you have any questions feel free to email me @ [email protected]

Good luck!


spciii
12-02-2006, 05:29 AM
One thing to keep in mind. . . as with most outfits like All ATPs, the instructors are only there to build enough hours to get hired at somewhere like American Eagle, CoEx, etc. I'm a military guy, but got my ATP through AllATPs and wasn't too impressed by the quality of instruction. The day I did my written was a 20-year-old instructor's first day and my instructor's last week of training before leaving for AE. The guys were nice enough, but didn't seem too interested in teaching me how to pass the checkride. (Thankfully, I passed).
For your sake, I hope the mil route works. I can't speak for all civilian schools, but I thought my mil training was awesome. . . and I operated the kind of equipment at age 24 that I wouldn't have been close to at age 30 on the outside.
Good luck to all,
spciii

AVIVIII
12-03-2006, 01:13 PM
I had an experience that was 180 degrees from ATP that was explained above. Yes, my instructor was there building time but how many career flight instructors do you know? She was 32 and still remains to be one of the best instructors that I have ever had, and I, as an instructor, try to model myself after her.

One thing to remember is that as much as ATP seems to train you for the airlines, they are training you to be a very strong, structured and safe pilot. If you finish their course of study, maybe instruct with them for a while, there will be a Regional waiting to interview you. The more successful candidates that come from ATP, the more anxious the airlines are to get their students.

There are other options though. After I finished at ATP, I went and got a commercial Seaplane rating and instructed in those for a while. I went back home and Instructed at a small airport, where I got the chance to fly everything from a few 1946 taildraggers to a Russian Jet-fighter trainer. From there I walked into a job flying a Twin-Otter for a skydiving operation and now I am doing some charter in a Twin Otter, flying boxes in a Beech 99 and flight instructing on the side. And every once and a while I pull gear for a friend in his Citation. I had enough time to go to the regionals 2 years ago, but decided to see what else is out there. And I'm only 23.

I'm not down-playing either path, just reminding you to keep your options open. As far as ATP is concerned, work hard, pay attention and stay one step ahead of everything, and you won't have a problem.

I looked at many other companies when I was making the decision and ATP was the best, hands down. If you are looking for more info, check out some of the other posts on this board, or feel free to PM me.

Good Luck

LAfrequentflyer
12-03-2006, 03:46 PM
I'm glad more people are posting about ATP and their product. Good / bad - people can't make a decision without information...


Like you - someone told me about them. I've done a lot of research and getting into aviation is expensive.

I'm curious about DFW location. How is it? There is a lot of aviation in / around Dallas.

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
12-03-2006, 03:50 PM
One thing to keep in mind. . . as with most outfits like All ATPs, the instructors are only there to build enough hours to get hired at somewhere like American Eagle, CoEx, etc. I'm a military guy, but got my ATP through AllATPs and wasn't too impressed by the quality of instruction. The day I did my written was a 20-year-old instructor's first day and my instructor's last week of training before leaving for AE. The guys were nice enough, but didn't seem too interested in teaching me how to pass the checkride. (Thankfully, I passed).
For your sake, I hope the mil route works. I can't speak for all civilian schools, but I thought my mil training was awesome. . . and I operated the kind of equipment at age 24 that I wouldn't have been close to at age 30 on the outside.
Good luck to all,
spciii


Are you sure you didn't walk into the FBO next to the ATP office?

-LAFF

AVIVIII
12-03-2006, 05:27 PM
I'm curious about DFW location. How is it? There is a lot of aviation in / around Dallas.

-LAFF


I was only at the Dallas location a little. But from what I remember they have a pretty nice set-up. It is just outside Dallas at Arlington Field (if I remember right) and it is un-towered, unless we were there after the tower closed... There is a lot of corporate stuff going in and out (read: good contacts!). Housing there is awesome and we always ate at this place called Cheddars down the street where the food and beer for two guys was always around $25.

Unfortunately, that is the best I have to offer. I can tell you that it is standardized enough that you can't have bad training, the atmosphere just differs a little place to place.

CTPILOT
12-03-2006, 05:56 PM
I did the 2 week CFI program in JAX great program but be prepared to STUDY due to the short time, but great people and you really do learn alot in the short time, ATP is great thats why I am likely going back for the Regional Jet standards program

LAfrequentflyer
12-03-2006, 06:16 PM
Don't waste your money on the RJ standards course. Everyone will tell you the same - listen to the majority. I normally try to go against the grain but in this case the point is valid - the airlines will train you. Save your money - better yet, invest it and use it later for a interview suit / nice clothes to wear on those exotic regional overnights...<grin>

-LAFF

jsfBoat
12-04-2006, 06:36 PM
Wow!Do I feel old. I'm 24 and just started working on my SE commercial. My 141 college program makes us take the instrument/commercial ride at the same time, so when I finish the commercial, I start the instrument. Wierd?! I know.

..." I had enough time to go to the regionals 2 years ago, but decided to see what else is out there. And I'm only 23."

AVIVIII
12-04-2006, 07:04 PM
Well, I made the decision to change career paths after my second year of college and have been flying almost non-stop ever since.

Good luck on your checkrides. The best piece of advice that I have for you is to take full advantage of and explore any and all opportunities that are presented to you

cubanfiredawg
12-04-2006, 07:30 PM
Well, I made the decision to change career paths after my second year of college and have been flying almost non-stop ever since.

Good luck on your checkrides. The best piece of advice that I have for you is to take full advantage of and explore any and all opportunities that are presented to you

Same Here AVIVIII. I left the fire dept. and haven't looked back. Lovein the fast pace of ATP. From what I've heard it's a lot like the airlines. "Here's all of the info. You have a test in a week. Good luck." No busted checkrides yet! (knock on wood)

Murr907
02-02-2007, 09:19 PM
hey pilot man, i am gonna start ATP at DFW in Dec. 07 after i finish my degree, and was wondering how it is going? Mainly just wondering about the Arlington location and how you are liking it? I lived in Dallas for 14 years or so before moving to TN for school. I think its going to be nice going back there just cause i know the area pretty well. Any info that you can give me will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Murr

pilot_man
02-03-2007, 09:28 AM
Murr,

So far so good, Ive been here about 2 weeks now and just passed my private-multi checkride today. The airport can get really busy, but when we need to do pattern work we always go to spinx or another close by airport. Other than that its a fun place to be, Ive enjoyed it so far with the exception on the wx screwing with things. Let me know if you have any questions, I would be glad to help.

POPA
02-03-2007, 09:45 AM
Hey Michael,
Most instructors are hired with 500-600 TT to airlines like, American Eagle, Continetial Express, PSA, Sky West, Colgan, and a few others.

SKW will not let anybody sit in class with less than 1000/100 - no exceptions.
I believe XJT is the same way.
As far as PSA and Colgan go...whoopee?:rolleyes:

pilot_man
02-03-2007, 09:57 AM
SKW will not let anybody sit in class with less than 1000/100 - no exceptions.
I believe XJT is the same way.
As far as PSA and Colgan go...whoopee?:rolleyes:


Thats not entirely true, at least from what I have heard. According to ATP's Letters of Agreement with the airlines, if you have the regional jet standards course completed, you can get hired on at lower minimums. That goes for SKW, XJT, AE, etc.
If you go http://www.atpflightschool.com/airlines/index.html you can view the letters and see the requirements for the lower minimums.
(http://www.atpflightschool.com/airlines/index.html)

POPA
02-03-2007, 11:53 AM
Thats not entirely true, at least from what I have heard. According to ATP's Letters of Agreement with the airlines, if you have the regional jet standards course completed, you can get hired on at lower minimums. That goes for SKW, XJT, AE, etc.

It's 100% true. The only guaranteed at reduced minimums is an INTERVIEW. There's nothing in there that says SkyWest can't say, "Call us for your class date when you hit 1000/100," and this is exactly what they do.

Murr907
02-03-2007, 12:03 PM
Pilot Man,

Thanks for the info. I just want to get my degree out of the way so I can start. I just got my PPL about a month ago and working on those 85 hours. Where do they have you guys living at?

Murr

pilot_man
02-03-2007, 12:17 PM
It's 100% true. The only guaranteed at reduced minimums is an INTERVIEW. There's nothing in there that says SkyWest can't say, "Call us for your class date when you hit 1000/100," and this is exactly what they do.

Yes they could do that. Like I said im just going off of the information at hand. I do not work for anyone yet nor have the req time. I am working on my certificates now and plan to be at an airline within the next year. So I am just a noob trying to share info that was given to me.

Pilot Man,

Thanks for the info. I just want to get my degree out of the way so I can start. I just got my PPL about a month ago and working on those 85 hours. Where do they have you guys living at?

Murr

Congrats on the license man! Keep the hard work coming. They have us staying at the Grand Courtyards Apartments in Grand Prarie. Its about a 6mi drive which takes 10-20 minutes depending on traffic and such.

FlywithStyle
06-14-2007, 12:18 PM
I am a student at ATP right now. Before I came to this school I went to a 141 and before that I went to my local FBO. There are good and bad about everything here are some. ATP- young instructors that don't really know how to teach, they don't understand the learning process of other people other than themselves. So if they had no problems they really don't understand when a student is having his own problems let alone know what to do to fix it. Just becuase you can pass a test dose not make you a good instructor. I suppose you can say that they are all qualified becuase the pass the same FAA written and practical as everyone else but that does not mean they can give quality instruction to other people. Absorbing infomation to pass a CFI test in 3 weeks does not really mean you can teach it. If you just want the ratings and don't care about being educated in avaition theroy then this is the way to go. The 141 school a great way to go if you like structure. I found alot more "teachers" at a school like this. Things at schools like this are laid out to you from the begining. what you will learn, when you will learn it ect.. The theroy of avaition is covered alot more here than at a "ratings mill". The instuctors there seem to be much more educated and enjoy being able to pass that knowledege on to others. the draw back is the expence and the time it takes to get this education. for example- you can get a degree on line but go to an established college and you will most likey have a better learning experience in the end. The FBO. finding an instructor at a place like this is something not to look down at either. I have found if you find an instructor who only instructs for a living then you have hit the jackpot. Someone that has been doing for quite sometime and not looking to find a better job to go to. Someone like this will have a lot of knowledge to pass on to his student. They understand what it is like to be unfamiliar in a plane. Someone that personally care about thier students and has taken a vested interest. Not someone that is just looking to keep his pass rate above 80 %. The draw back is that it may take a while to find that one instructor that you really click with.
In the end you are going to get out of it what you put into it. You are paying for the service of a company or person to teach you how to fly. Not the other way around. So you need to enjoy your lessons, find someone to teach you that makes you WANT to fly everyday.

de727ups
06-14-2007, 02:55 PM
Yeah, this is why I'm not a fan of the 90 day program and grads of that program hoping right into teaching. It's just too fast.

keiundraj
06-14-2007, 04:14 PM
Again if you don't or haven't went there There's no way Possible you can understand yet alone speak on it. I'm currently a student at ATP, My private instructor was an ex college Professor with a PHd. He went through the 90day program and was the best teacher there I've seen. I think it boils down to the personality of the instructor, I'm sure there's guys that it took them 4years to get their CFIs and are Worst instructor than the 90day guys. I think what you're trying to suggest is 90days isn't enough time to learn everything you need to learn in order to properly instruct. Unfortunately you're wrong, There are quality instructors here, but I must admit 90days is short that's why After spending 8hrs at school 2hrs of Flying I come back here and Study. It's impossible to get through the program unless you're really dedicated. You have No clue of the People who don't make it through because they don't have the work ethic. There's going to be bad experiences with EVERY flight school but I can Bet with ATP the Good one outweigh the bad ones.

de727ups
06-14-2007, 04:46 PM
Ya know, I don't really care that you disagree with me. But what qualifies me to speak on it is being a CFI since 1980, once owning a flying club with 5 airplanes, including a seaplane and a taildragger, and singing off about 30 guys for checkrides.

What qualifies you? That you go there? Give me a break...

FlywithStyle
06-14-2007, 05:06 PM
ok so I do understand that you had a good instructor and that is really the only thing that I was encouraging. But like I said before a student needs and instructor, a teacher, an educator not someone that sits there collecting hours in his book for free. By the way I do go to ATP currently. there is not a single instructor at this campus over the age of 26. most are early 20's CFI less than a year. There is only one person there that has had more than 2 yrs of flight instructing experience and that is only for the fact that it is a requirement that a 2yr CFI sign off on the initial. Otherwise most of the instructors are there solely to get alot of multi instruction time and this is the only school that will offer that. So I am just saying to find what fits for you.
By the way ask any D.E. what they think

Slice
06-14-2007, 05:14 PM
Ya know, I don't really care that you disagree with me. But what qualifies me to speak on it is being a CFI since 1980, once owning a flying club with 5 airplanes, including a seaplane and a taildragger, and singing off about 30 guys for checkrides.

What qualifies you? That you go there? Give me a break...

I think he's up to 111 hours now...isn't that qualified enough? :D

keiundraj
06-14-2007, 06:23 PM
I think he's up to 111 hours now...isn't that qualified enough? :D

Actually 124 after today.:D.... Are U people MAD or something????....... Facts are Facts the Program WORKS and the airlines LOVE it....And Age has nothing to do with it, It's all about the Instructor so are you suggesting that someone who's 44 and been instructing for 10years AUTOMATICALLY cares about what you learn more than someone who's 20 and been instructing for 2months???? Again it's all about the instructor Personality!

Pilotpip
06-14-2007, 06:59 PM
The airlines like anybody with 500 hours and a pulse right now. There are 30 in my class and they come from various schools including a couple from ATP. Go with what fits your schedule and budget best. Don't worry about getting hired with reduced mins because there really are few places that aren't doing that without the ATP price tag attached.

keiundraj
06-14-2007, 07:36 PM
I agree... with Pilotpip... but if you wanna get there fast and get that seniority number then ATP is where you wanna Be.

the King
06-14-2007, 07:53 PM
I'm 21 and have had my CFI for almost a year now. Do you think I really feel comfortable instructing. Absolutely not. Every day, I have to learn something on the fly to get my students through it. What they are saying is that having 200 hours of experience and a CFI barely qualifies you to teach. That is an absolutely true statement. 250 hours means you're ready to learn to fly. That first 200 hours of dual given teaches you more about flying than any amount of training.

keiundraj
06-14-2007, 07:56 PM
What you're saying is your Personal exprience... You can't speak for All CFIs, 200hrs CFIs or 1000CFIs. There may be someone with 1500hrs and get a student that they just can't get to get it..... And there may be a 200hr CFI that knows the way he just learned it and that student learns it Right off the bat...

All I'm saying guys is that there's no PROF to what you're saying?

de727ups
06-14-2007, 09:00 PM
"Actually 124"

I was a CFI before you were born. And I know how to spell proof, too....

You're lack of experience shows in your posts. At 124 hours, you don't have the background to even understand what the problem is.

Ignorance is bliss....and you seem quite content with it.

keiundraj
06-14-2007, 09:06 PM
Thanks.... and you're right Ignorance is Bliss...... Me being Content with it that's another thing.... That's your assessment, I do admire you abilities to judge! I guess you can tell my age by how many hours I have also.... LOL...

Also I guess with ALL your hours you know what Every problem is???

keiundraj
06-14-2007, 09:15 PM
I've always been a questioner I just don't take what people tell me and believe it. All you're doing is telling me why I'm wrong but you're not telling me Why what you're suggesting is right.... What you're suggesting is because I have more hours than me then I should listen and just shut up????

There's no *PROOF* in your statements sir. Sorry to be the Devils advocate here but I still don't get your point..... Accidents happen 1000hrs 200hrs 10,000hrs accidents happen..... Maybe if you were talking about Vehicles you might have substance, but one can argue that points also, ELDERS have as many accidents as youngsters? You're trying to Use an Insult of my intelligence as a way of proving that you're right and it's not happening.

I'm not Defending ATP I'm defending people abilities. I was up at AMR's flight training Center the other week, I personally heard a Check Airman say that he's seen some guys come in training with 300hrs and out preform someone with 1000hrs.... It all have to do with the maturity, ability as a pilot, decision making skills, of that particular pilot!

LAfrequentflyer
06-15-2007, 11:49 AM
There is no proof ATPs program is bad / flawed.

De727 is a bitter old man who has failed to get on the train as it left the platform and now regrets his decision.

The future for aviation is in accelerated training programs and airline specific training. The days of wasting years as a CFI at an FBO taking advantage of students has ended.

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
06-15-2007, 11:54 AM
I'm 21 and have had my CFI for almost a year now. Do you think I really feel comfortable instructing. Absolutely not. Every day, I have to learn something on the fly to get my students through it. What they are saying is that having 200 hours of experience and a CFI barely qualifies you to teach. That is an absolutely true statement. 250 hours means you're ready to learn to fly. That first 200 hours of dual given teaches you more about flying than any amount of training.

You'll feel the same way as an FO. Then you'll feel that way as a Captain.

You can CFI if you want. It will only hold you back from the airline job.

For the record I plan to CFI - but only at a academy that teaches overseas students. I like that type of environment and european / japanese airlines do a very good job at screening candidates. It will be a more rewarding experience than teaching 'stupid' americans than can't add/substract without a calculator.

-LAFF

usmc-sgt
06-15-2007, 12:23 PM
This is going to get ugly....

some of the advice you give is beyond me..where it comes from I have no idea.

de727ups
06-15-2007, 12:41 PM
"De727 is a bitter old man who has failed to get on the train as it left the platform and now regrets his decision."

Whatever....

And it's DE727UPS. You left the UPS part out. Now, where did that train go again???

usmc-sgt
06-15-2007, 12:53 PM
This thread is nearing being closed......get it back on topic.

Get it back on topic with first hand useful information if you know what I mean

kdoner
06-15-2007, 01:14 PM
umm... just my 2 cents as a youngster who is "ignorant"...

i've had 5 instructors, my instrument checkride is next week and i have 115 hours...from my "little" experience...i've had 2 instructors that are 40-50yrs old, ex airline pilot, with 25000000000 hours... and i've had 3 instructors 20-23 yrs old.. 250-400TT...

from MY experience.. i've benefitted... oops.. i mean.. benefited (since we're counting spelling i wouldnt want my 2 cents VOID from spelling) i have benfited more from the young instructors, because there is no intimidation factor, and there is more of a friend/instructor relationship. I can let them know when i have a problem, or if i'm clueless about what he's talking about..

with the experienced guys, i felt intimidated, never questioned their reasoning, nothing... i used to look for every excuse not to fly because i didnt know what i was supposed to know before the flight, and felt like i couldnt voice myself.

So i do believe that it is about personality, and how well you click, maybe its the other way around, where most the old guys have that personality, and the young guys are intimidating, and i just got the few that werent. But with these young guys, i'm not afraid to tell them they are wrong, or let them tell me i'm an idiot sometimes, opposed to the older guys, who wouldnt tell me i'm wrong because they were worried about discouraging me,

Each case is different, and we all have our opinions... theres mine...

keiundraj
06-15-2007, 01:28 PM
umm... just my 2 cents as a youngster who is "ignorant"...

i've had 5 instructors, my instrument checkride is next week and i have 115 hours...from my "little" experience...i've had 2 instructors that are 40-50yrs old, ex airline pilot, with 25000000000 hours... and i've had 3 instructors 20-23 yrs old.. 250-400TT...

from MY experience.. i've benefitted... oops.. i mean.. benefited (since we're counting spelling i wouldnt want my 2 cents VOID from spelling) i have benfited more from the young instructors, because there is no intimidation factor, and there is more of a friend/instructor relationship. I can let them know when i have a problem, or if i'm clueless about what he's talking about..

with the experienced guys, i felt intimidated, never questioned their reasoning, nothing... i used to look for every excuse not to fly because i didnt know what i was supposed to know before the flight, and felt like i couldnt voice myself.

So i do believe that it is about personality, and how well you click, maybe its the other way around, where most the old guys have that personality, and the young guys are intimidating, and i just got the few that werent. But with these young guys, i'm not afraid to tell them they are wrong, or let them tell me i'm an idiot sometimes, opposed to the older guys, who wouldnt tell me i'm wrong because they were worried about discouraging me,

Each case is different, and we all have our opinions... theres mine...


This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about!! Thanks for helping me Plead my case

de727ups
06-15-2007, 01:34 PM
My problem with ATP is the 90 day program and lack of experience those CFI's have to be teaching. Not really old vs young CFI, or one personality vs another.

It's important to click with who you are working with, regardless of their age or experience level. That you feel intimidated by older, higher time, CFI's is unfortunate, since they have a vast knowledge base a low time CFI won't have.

Slice
06-15-2007, 01:39 PM
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about!! Thanks for helping me Plead my case

You do realize that every time you seem to say that you are in agreement it's with a guy who has little to no experience and has yet to fly for a living?

keiundraj
06-15-2007, 01:47 PM
The problem is this isn't a post about people who's flying for a living.... This post is about people Learning to Fly???

keiundraj
06-15-2007, 01:56 PM
You do realize that every time you seem to say that you are in agreement it's with a guy who has little to no experience and has yet to fly for a living?

This guy Agreed with me

I do see both sides. eg, my example about the military use of newly winged aviators as IP's. All of your 'detractors' here also see both sides. Different ways to express it though. We haven't even touched on complacency ;)
But that is the challenge for experienced or familiar folks. Even as you mentioned that some of your ATP CFI's wanted to blow off parts of a checklist (overly familiar thus complacent) which you declined (wisely) to do.
Maturity and professionalism is that antidote.
Antidote for inexperience is exposure in various operating environments. Read hours.

It's good to see that somebody can look at a situation and evaluate it and be able to REASON, I'm reasoning here I've said several times more experienced CFIs are most likely better. Just not in all instances. The posts above was a Great example of that.... It all has to do with the student and that instructor??

Spartan07
06-15-2007, 06:14 PM
Ya know, in my experience (Not just learning how to fly mind you) it really comes down to YOUR personality. Myself, I like flying with somebody that has a lot of experience and is older, more mature, more relaxed and has a firmer grasp on the concept of teaching.

I will never say that you aren't qualified to be a CFI because of your hours, lord knows that soon -I- will be an instructor with wet ink on my certificate. I -WILL- say that teaching someone how to fly isn't just knowing how to fly yourself. You really need to understand the learning process. I spent quite a bit of time instructing various subjects in the Marine Corps before I embarked on this career. Needless to say I learned quite a bit about how I learn and also that everybody has a different style of learning... and teaching for that matter.

And my personal opinion? It's best to fly with a mix of the new school/old school. My first instructor was a 60+ year old Vietnam vet that made instructing a post retirement career. He owns his own school/pilot association and unlike some "dinosaurs" has a very firm grasp on the new technology in the field today (GPS, glass panels etc.). I absorbed an amazing amount of information from that guy and he was truly an outstanding teacher that was very knowledgeable in his chosen field. Now I am embarking on a flight academy where most of my instructors are going to be younger than me. I think over the course of my learning, being exposed to both types of instructing will only serve to help me.

So honestly what I'm trying to say is everybody is right here. It depends on your own personal learning preference.

de727ups
06-15-2007, 06:49 PM
"The problem is this isn't a post about people who's flying for a living...."

So, now everybody who isn't learning how to fly needs to shut up and let those that are tell us how it is. Works for me....

the King
06-15-2007, 09:13 PM
90 days still seems to be a really short amount of time to absorb enough information to effectively teach another student. Aviation seems to be the only field we do this in. Teachers have at least 4 years of learning and then at least a semester of student teaching. Military DIs aren't recently minted officers. As a student, I was slightly unnerved by the fact that my instructor was relatively new. He won me over by being very thorough and professional. But imagine the shock of hearing that the guy/gal you're learning from started flying 6 months ago.

HSLD
06-15-2007, 09:35 PM
"The problem is this isn't a post about people who's flying for a living...."

So, now everybody who isn't learning how to fly needs to shut up and let those that are tell us how it is. Works for me....

If only there was a web site with a forum for working airline pilots :rolleyes:

kdoner
06-15-2007, 09:39 PM
i've just come to learn that i will forever be learning...

HSLD
06-15-2007, 09:49 PM
i've just come to learn that i will forever be learning...

And that's the thing about experience. If you want to fly like a 10,000 pilot, you have to fly 10,000 hours. The saying "you don't know what you don't know" comes to mind in this thread.

I don't doubt that you can train a guy to the minimum FAA CFI standards in 90 days. To say that you can train a guy to effectively function in a 121 environment in that time is a joke.

Experience is what makes a cockpit crew member an asset. You can't rely on rote memorization of manuals to deal with a highly dynamic environment that the commercial flying offers.

keiundraj
06-16-2007, 12:59 AM
The FAA understand the risks/liabilities associated with 90days schools. That's why they're so Tough on schools like ATP. I've seen someone from The FSDO at ATP at least Once a week since I've been here. To say that one can't learn everything he/she needs to learn in 90 days is saying that the 1,000s of ATP graduates have so how been shown favoritism by the FAA...... Here's the Truth, ATP send each one of their students to CFI "School" Taught by an Ex. FAA employee who had a hand in writing almost Every Reg you probably know of. After they're done they're sent to Random locations. Wherever the FAA sees fit, and tested by a random examiner. I've heard of "Horror stories" of Orals being 8hrs long. The examiners also understand that 90days is a short amount of time, but you'll be amazed at what 90days of being emerged in aviation can do. Here at ATP your life revolves around, everyone around you is in it, all you talk about is Aviation. You study it ALL day, you do it All day. So it IS possible saying it's not maybe a testament to your learning capabilities?

Spartan07
06-16-2007, 01:15 AM
I'm not trying to start anything, Hell I'm not even being fascicous but you are starting to sound like some of the stereotypical ERAU students. "My school's the best", "We're held to a higher standard.", "You just couldn't hack it at our school.". Again, not talking down to you guys and I'm not even throwing a backhand at ERAU but you're sounding like -that- guy that nobody wants to be.

FlywithStyle
06-16-2007, 05:07 AM
Keniundraji- who are you talking about that teaches the CFI 'school'? because the campus I go to the CFI course is taught by a couple of the instructors that barley have 700 hours? The standardization ride for the company is the most intense thing you will face at the school. "the feared 'Rich Ride' "The FAA does not send you to locations around the country, you are put in 'the pit' answersing phone for the company until your choice location is available or you just go where they need you. Nobody is doubting that ATP puts thier fair share of CFI. but when I started posting here all I was stating that getting a quality "Teacher/Educator" may be a tough thing to find at school like ATP due to the speed at which youare put through the program. and 8 hour orals only last that long when you don't know the things you really should know. Next time you are sitting in the room with a D.E. ask for his honset opinion of the education level of the school.

keiundraj
06-16-2007, 07:36 AM
Not sure which ATP location you're at. Walt is the instructor at the CFI school in Jax, again he had a hand in Probably most of the Regs you know. I'm not saying my school is the best.... I'm just not saying my school is the WORST, as people are suggesting. I'm here now and I do know the problems. To suggest that one can't learn from a 90CFI is just incorrect. That's what I'm saying. Having a 8hr Oral is possible, my ex roommate who's an instructor now, had one and he said he answered EVERYTHING correctly. You'll see when you get there FlywithStyle, ATP will send you to an Airport and say "you're having your CFI initial with.........??? As for the Pit answering phones that's when you want to go to a specific location and there's no positions there yet. They will send you to a location at any of their locations but if you want a specific one, you'll be there answering phones. Speed at which you're put through the program mainly depends on you!!! Example. When I began the instrument portion of the program there were guys 3weeks into the instrument and I knew more than them. Why? I read the book, asked questions when i didn't understand, did whatever it took to ensure I understood what was going on. The CFIs here are not here to teach you 1st off. They don't have time, they're here to answer questions if you're not understanding something. Hell it's 90days the guy/girl have 2students, then addon ATPs and other stuff. It's on you to get the books they'll teach you in to fly the airplane, and ensure you don't kill yourself. The program that they actually have ground school and teach is in the Private 60days. You actually have ground school and class. The 90day ACPP program you're on your own!!! ATP isn't the best school for everyone but It most definitely work for some...... The standardization "Rich Ride," is probably the worst student they'll ever go through. He puts them through everything he can think of. They get through that welcome to the company.

POPA
06-16-2007, 07:51 AM
blah blah blah

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/FlyBoilermaker/forums/00042298.jpg

the King
06-16-2007, 10:54 AM
The CFIs here are not here to teach you 1st off.

...and ensure you don't kill yourself.

Those statements are why many people are not as impressed with ATP. I'll go out on a limb and say that most of us believe we should teach a student how to be a better pilot than we are, not just how to avoid death. Yeah you need to be prepared, but there are some things in aviation that you need to see to understand. And some of those things might not come up in your 90 day window.

de727ups
06-16-2007, 11:41 AM
"The CFIs here are not here to teach you 1st off. They don't have time, they're here to answer questions if you're not understanding something"

Sounds great to me...

Pilotpip
06-16-2007, 12:11 PM
Passing a checkride means you are capable of the minimum acceptable standard. With all the stuff that you need to know and demonstrate I find it hard to find that anybody is capable of more than the minimum after going non-stop for 90 days.

But hey, the FAA says it's ok so I guess the minimum is all I should strive for.

What exactly does the "I" in Certified Flight Instructor stand for if they aren't there to teach you?

keiundraj
06-16-2007, 12:51 PM
Passing a checkride means you are capable of the minimum acceptable standard. With all the stuff that you need to know and demonstrate I find it hard to find that anybody is capable of more than the minimum after going non-stop for 90 days.

But hey, the FAA says it's ok so I guess the minimum is all I should strive for.

What exactly does the "I" in Certified Flight Instructor stand for if they aren't there to teach you?

You may find it hard, but maybe? that's based on your capabilities, you can't speak for anyone else. It's ok that you're not impressed with ATP, but it's obvious that airlines are, no School in American can say they've placed more grads in pilot positions than ATP. Although I don't think you're arguing that point, I do think you're missing my point. If you feel that It should take you more time, that's fine you're entitled to that. To tell someone that they should go somewhere because you don't like it is another. What you get out of Any school is what you put into it. Go to a 4year school and learn NOTHING, come to a 90day school and learn everything you should have learn.

Because you don't like a school, having never been there and understand nothing about it, it's unfair to tell someone they shouldn't go there?

de727ups
06-16-2007, 01:04 PM
"having never been there and understand nothing about it"

That's the part you're not getting. As people involved with pilot training since God knows when, there are quite a few here telling you (as a 124 hour pilot) that going from PPL to CFI in 90 days is a bad idea.

WE DON'T NEED TO HAVE GONE TO ATP TO GET THAT.

Now, you can disagree, but telling us we aren't qualified to comment cause we didn't go there (which is your overriding theme), is nuts.

ATP uses light aircraft, simulators, and CFI's under part 61 of the FAR's. It's not magic, it's not some special ATP syllabus, it's just a CFI, an airplane, and a bunch of guys trying to get it done as quick as possible at all cost.

Please, tell me, what magic does ATP use to create a competent CFI out of a PPL in 90 days?

I think the folks, like me, that are arguing with you in this thread, have FAR more strength in forming an argument based on their experience as pilots and CFI's than any 124 hour pilot from ANY flight school. And they don't need to have gone to ATP to be credible.

keiundraj
06-16-2007, 01:16 PM
You sure like to throw that 124hrs thing around don't you LOL. To further enhance my argument you don't go from PPL to CFI in 90days. Again you don't know what goes on. The 90day program you have to ALREADY have your PPL and 85hrs.

The difference is when a student at the local FBO leaves training he/she goes home and do nothing else until you get back to the FBO the next time they fly. At ATP you eat, sleep, breath, drink, Aviation because if you don't you won't make it through the program. Is that's the Magic you're asking about??

As for it being a bad idea that's clearly your opinion. You may never like an ATP grad but you can rest assure those grads don't think it was a bad idea!

de727ups
06-16-2007, 01:25 PM
"To further enhance my argument you don't go from PPL to CFI in 90days."

Yeah ya do. 85 hour PPL to CFIMEI in 90 days. That's the same as PPL to CFI, as I stated.

"You may never like an ATP grad"

A good buddy of mine is an ATP grad. And he's not a supporter, nor did he do, the 90 day program. This isn't about who I like or even being anti-ATP, as you assume. I'm anti-90 day program. Not anti-ATP.

Some FBO's, by the way, you could fly twice a day and live and breathe aviation. That's more a matter of finding the right FBO and YOUR personal effort. It's not something ATP has exclusive rights to.

"You sure like to throw that 124hrs thing around don't you"

It proves a very important point....

keiundraj
06-16-2007, 01:33 PM
I guess your buddy did the Self Paced Program? Even if he did he had the same 300-500TT instructors that the 90day students have. I guess doing it slower makes it ok?

It proves a very important point....LOL you're funny!!

Pilotpip
06-16-2007, 03:10 PM
You may find it hard, but maybe? that's based on your capabilities, you can't speak for anyone else. It's ok that you're not impressed with ATP, but it's obvious that airlines are, no School in American can say they've placed more grads in pilot positions than ATP. Although I don't think you're arguing that point, I do think you're missing my point. If you feel that It should take you more time, that's fine you're entitled to that. To tell someone that they should go somewhere because you don't like it is another. What you get out of Any school is what you put into it. Go to a 4year school and learn NOTHING, come to a 90day school and learn everything you should have learn.

Because you don't like a school, having never been there and understand nothing about it, it's unfair to tell someone they shouldn't go there?

Yeah, my experience. Instructing for nearly two years I found as I instructed longer it was amazing how little I knew early on. I don't like the fact that people in my class have NEVER been in IMC. It's not the same as the foggles, but since you know all, you probably knew that.

Here's a great word of advice. Shut your mouth and open your ears. You won't learn anything or for that matter make any friends while thumping your chest. When it comes time to make the jump to an airline guess what? Everybody has the same things you do. They're all qualified to get there and it doesn't matter where they came from. The ones that come in running their mouths and thinking they know more than the instructor becuase they've been in a CRJ sim are the ones that are struggling right now mainly because nobody wants to study with them. So good for you, you're at ATP. I've never said there's anything wrong with that but you seem to want to make that case. Buyer's remorse?

keiundraj
06-16-2007, 03:20 PM
Yeah, my experience. Instructing for nearly two years I found as I instructed longer it was amazing how little I knew early on. I don't like the fact that people in my class have NEVER been in IMC. It's not the same as the foggles, but since you know all, you probably knew that.

Here's a great word of advice. Shut your mouth and open your ears. You won't learn anything or for that matter make any friends while thumping your chest. When it comes time to make the jump to an airline guess what? Everybody has the same things you do. They're all qualified to get there and it doesn't matter where they came from. The ones that come in running their mouths and thinking they know more than the instructor becuase they've been in a CRJ sim are the ones that are struggling right now mainly because nobody wants to study with them. So good for you, you're at ATP. I've never said there's anything wrong with that but you seem to want to make that case. Buyer's remorse?

I did know being in Actual is different than simulated. I guess I do know it all. No buyer's remorse though!! I'm very happy with ATP. Think everyone who wants to get into the industry and get there fast should consider it. I'm not thumping my chest, or trying to make friends. I'm just giving my opinion which I'm entitled to? What does having been in a CRJ sim have to do with our discussion here>?:rolleyes:

usmc-sgt
06-16-2007, 03:34 PM
reading this thread is like watching a one legged man in a butt kicking contest...pointless

at 300+dual given now I still feel like I am shorting my students because of how absolutely little I know...although it is 300 more than I knew when I started

the King
06-17-2007, 08:37 PM
reading this thread is like watching a one legged man in a butt kicking contest...pointless

at 300+dual given now I still feel like I am shorting my students because of how absolutely little I know...although it is 300 more than I knew when I started

Exactly. I'd say you've been flying at least 3-4 years. I'm in the same boat. Less dual given, but I still remember that first day that it was my butt on the line. Can't imagine trying to do this with only 90 days after getting a Instrument, Commercial, and CFII-MEI.

By the way, someone brought up an interesting point. I know I don't have enough actual to be really comfortable. I got more in one charter trip than I did my entire 2 years of training. Imagine hitting actual your first time...with a student at the controls next to you.

Puckhead
06-19-2007, 05:53 PM
I normally wouldnt get into a discussion like this but I feel it is absolutely pointless to argue with someone who works for an airline like de727ups or some of the others including instructors since they pretty much know what their talking about. Im not saying anything in regards to ATP I think it works for some doesnt work for others thats fine its your choice do what you want. The last thing I would do is get on here not even being an instructor which im not and argue with the guys who do this for a living. My two cents do what you want with it. Opinions are great but everyone has one.

determined2fly
06-25-2007, 07:02 PM
I know that the course materials are included in the price for training at ATP for those doing the 90 day airline career program. Does anyone know the titles of the books they send to you before training begins at the center?

Thankyou!!:)

Lbell911
06-27-2007, 11:06 AM
I'm going to start at ATP in (Jax) to finish up my ratings around Sept 2007, as the snow/ice begins to hit in the Chicago area the flying days are limited. Also my family lives in Fla. I know there are lots of pros and con-ATP, but I just want to fly, and they work out the best for me.

I too am curious as to what "supplies" are included in your training cost.

I do like the fact they have letters of agreement with several regionals, which you won't find at your local FBO. I did my 1st 160 hours at the local FBO and don't regret any of it. I did find it difficult sometimes to schedule an airplane as they didn't have that many. Also they didn't have an ME airplane or I'd probably just finish there.

Pilotpip
06-27-2007, 03:37 PM
Lbell,

The letters of agreement basically mean nothing right now. The hiring minimums at most regionals are so low that nobody needs it. Everybody has a guaranteed interview right now. An FBO without a multi trainer will certainly be a good reason to go somewhere else but don't buy the "our students get hired with lower times" myth right now. There isn't a single person in my class with over 1000 hours. Most new hires are around 500/100.

It says you're an F/A. If you want to have a better in make some friends with jumpseating and non-reving regional pilots on your flights and get one to walk your resume in.

Lbell911
06-27-2007, 04:31 PM
Yeah I've been working that in the past, but I've been outta work the last year with 3 knee surgeries ref broken leg while flying. So needless to say I've been outta touch the last year. (Hence why I'm starting in Sept 07 back up flying).......

Also ref why ATP for me, is financially......I ran out of the savings after 165 hrs (got my pvt and inst though)....and have to finance the rest, well the bank will only approve it if i got an approved flight school (in their system)....so that bounded my hands, so I picked them as they are in FLA by my family and based on many other reason.....(most all training in the multi-engine plane).....

LeoSV
06-27-2007, 05:55 PM
I know that the course materials are included in the price for training at ATP for those doing the 90 day airline career program. Does anyone know the titles of the books they send to you before training begins at the center?

Thankyou!!:)

you get..
PTS= PPL, INST, COMM, CFI, MEI
Oral exam= Same as above. Except no MEI, just ME
Airplane flying handbook
Gleim's= PPL, COMM, Fundamental of Instructin, flight/ground instruction
Pilot's handbook of aeronautical knowledge
aviation instructors handbook
Seminole information manual
Seminole training supplement
C172 safety guide
1975 C172P owner's manual
Jepp Comm/Inst book
ASA FAR/AIM
And a hat

de727ups
06-27-2007, 05:59 PM
"1975 C172P owner's manual"

I kinda doubt that, the 1975 Cessna 172 was an M model. Perhaps you meant 1985? Or perhaps ATP is hoping no one will notice.....

LeoSV
06-28-2007, 07:49 AM
"1975 C172P owner's manual"

I kinda doubt that, the 1975 Cessna 172 was an M model. Perhaps you meant 1985? Or perhaps ATP is hoping no one will notice.....

It is an M model. I remember doing my cross country in an M model when I was at ATP. I put P model on accident. I Can't get anything by you!! :D

Bernoulli Fan
07-03-2007, 05:29 PM
the place looks pretty cool with an awesome price.

I spent quite a bit of time today evaluating the monetary value of the product ATP provides, since I have been seriously considering enrolling. What I found is...you should heed Slice and others who have noted that ATP overcharges.

Receiving the exact same hours, ratings, books, housing allowance, and everything from an FBO would cost you $15,000 less than from ATP, depending on where you live, etc.

It might be worth it to you to finish 5 months sooner (this number assumes you work and fly only ~6 hrs/week at an FBO), but $15,000 is a lot of money. Especially if you have to finance and pay interest.

The response has been mixed as to quality of instruction and validity of getting your CFII/MEI in three weeks, so I just wanted to post the numbers.

Numbers based on Los Angeles-area expenses.

de727ups
07-06-2007, 09:20 PM
I don't believe the quality of instruction at ATP, on average, exceeds your average FBO.

ATP CFI's often were PPL's 90 days ago and came up with no experience outside the academy enviornment. They meet min standards to teach at ATP, that's about it.

At an FBO you could get someone on par with an ATP guy, or you could get a retired airline pilot doing it for fun. You just never know. Shop around....

stinsonjr
07-07-2007, 02:46 PM
I don't believe the quality of instruction at ATP, on average, exceeds your average FBO.

ATP CFI's often were PPL's 90 days ago and came up with no experience outside the academy enviornment. They meet min standards to teach at ATP, that's about it.

At an FBO you could get someone on par with an ATP guy, or you could get a retired airline pilot doing it for fun. You just never know. Shop around....

And herein lies the great question. At pilot factories, with instructors that were starting their first lesson 90 days ago, what is the quality of the instruction? I am not saying it is good, or bad, just asking.

The total number of hours do not neccesarily make a good pilot or instructor, and the total immersion thing can work well (the Army Air Corp had people like my Grandpa in the left seat of a B-25 at 19 years old with a couple hundred or so hours doing low level cross countries, in formation, in preparation for being shipped overseas. I just wonder if the same principles apply at places like ATP, etc.

Also - when you are in a homogenized group - like ATP for instance (all you talk to, see, or experiece is aviation as ATP intends you to see it) I think you miss great learning from the diversity of experience and people at the local FBO.

de727ups
07-07-2007, 06:44 PM
You can train a guy to land on an F18 on an aircraft carrier at 300 hours. However, they screen the best of the best (lot's of competition), you are an officer in the military first (maturity and a degree), and they spend a heck of a lot of money to make it happen (I've heard a million). This training is far in excess of the FAA min standards.

Not knockin' your Grandpa, but back in those days we were at war and the survival of the country was a stake. The accident rate that occured, and was accepted, in those days, well....a fraction of that accident rate wouldn't be tolerated today. If a plane crashed on landing, they just got a bulldozer out there to scrape it off, and went about their business.

I have no problem with total immersion. It's just that I believe 90 days, with no seasoning time or "outside the bubble" time after getting all those ratings, is a less than ideal way to train the next generation of airline pilots.

the King
07-07-2007, 09:30 PM
I ask this question. Who remembers when they got their PPL? Now, who remembers when they got their CFI? Can you remember the difference in experience (for those trained old-school)? Now think how much you know now that you can't learn from a manual.

The saying that comes to mind is: You don't know what you don't know. You can get a quality instructor in 90 days, but that is the exceptional, applied student. Statistically, most are not that guy.

determined2fly
07-07-2007, 10:18 PM
You can train a guy to land on an F18 on an aircraft carrier at 300 hours. However, they screen the best of the best (lot's of competition), you are an officer in the military first (maturity and a degree), and they spend a heck of a lot of money to make it happen (I've heard a million). This training is far in excess of the FAA min standards.

Not knockin' your Grandpa, but back in those days we were at war and the survival of the country was a stake. The accident rate that occured, and was accepted, in those days, well....a fraction of that accident rate wouldn't be tolerated today. If a plane crashed on landing, they just got a bulldozer out there to scrape it off, and went about their business.

I have no problem with total immersion. It's just that I believe 90 days, with no seasoning time or "outside the bubble" time after getting all those ratings, is a less than ideal way to train the next generation of airline pilots.

the regional airline companies in this country seem to think otherwise...:o

de727ups
07-07-2007, 10:39 PM
Think otherwise about what?

Guys are getting hired with low hours, not because ACPP training is superior, but because they need to fill the seats. I remember when ATP was around years ago and you needed 1500/300 to get hired. What has changed is the supply/demand curve and the lowering of the bar in new hire experience levels.

Personally, I hate to see that bar lowered, even if airline management could care less.

stinsonjr
07-08-2007, 10:16 AM
You can train a guy to land on an F18 on an aircraft carrier at 300 hours. However, they screen the best of the best (lot's of competition), you are an officer in the military first (maturity and a degree), and they spend a heck of a lot of money to make it happen (I've heard a million). This training is far in excess of the FAA min standards.

Not knockin' your Grandpa, but back in those days we were at war and the survival of the country was a stake. The accident rate that occured, and was accepted, in those days, well....a fraction of that accident rate wouldn't be tolerated today. If a plane crashed on landing, they just got a bulldozer out there to scrape it off, and went about their business.

I have no problem with total immersion. It's just that I believe 90 days, with no seasoning time or "outside the bubble" time after getting all those ratings, is a less than ideal way to train the next generation of airline pilots.

Thanks for the reply. Absolutely agree with your assesment about my Grandpa's day -you either did it sucessfully, or crashed. Airplanes were cheap, manufacturing capability high, and with the carnage taking place, no one cared about the training accidents (particularly the B-26 - interesting history).

I think 90 days is too quick too - and I am not basing it on anything other than a hunch. And now, here is the gasoline that will ignite a flame:

A professional pilot seat - even the left seat of FedEx/UPS, is probably not worth the cost based upon a financial analysis of the benefits vs. what it took to get there. There are simply too many ways to make 12 year FedEx Captain pay, sooner, without the ups and downs of a flying career. This is simply fact. I get the idea that many of the people that are going to the accelerated programs actually think this is a great job (which it can be, but probably isn't for most). What makes professional flying intoxicating, to me, is a passion for all things aviation; the history, the people involved, the idea of flying large machines in all kinds of situations, etc. My passion has nothing to do with "it can be a really financially rewarding career". Maybe it can be, maybe not, but income and security are actually things in the airline career that are not positives (in my view). I wonder how many of the people going to the accelerated flight schools actually have a passion for aviation, or have they deluded themselves into the idea that flying is a great, secure, and financially rewarding way to raise a family?

Again, I am not saying that Aviation and Airline flying is not rewarding financially - for some it is. All I am wondering about is how many of the students out there today are chasing a profession as to chasing a dream? My hpypothesis is that for those that are consumed with aviation, the rigors and uncertainty are offset by the pride and accomplishment of the job. Those that are chasing a profession may not like the reality of the job.

the King
07-08-2007, 07:58 PM
It's financially rewarding when you get your seniority up there. I agree that you need to have some passion for flying if you want to make it through in one piece. I try to impress on my students that life in the "real world" is rough as a new-hire. If they are having trouble with college life, airlines usually aren't the place I'd recommend.

ShamH85
07-10-2007, 10:15 AM
Not to hijack the thread; but did anyone go to ATP Riverside? If so feel free to pm me, I'm a student prospect but would like a little bit more details on the location.

HercDriver130
07-15-2007, 04:12 AM
Heck i just want to knock out my ATP Cert there ......good Idea or not..?

Slice
07-15-2007, 07:13 AM
Heck i just want to knock out my ATP Cert there ......good Idea or not..?

Do you have VA bennies left? Squadron mate of mine wants an ATP for a little over $1K more(after being reimbursed) he'll have a 737 type along with an ATP. Something to think about if you qualify.

HercDriver130
07-15-2007, 09:50 AM
Been out to long to qualify I think ..... plus im non-current Instrument .... but Id rather take my ATP in the 737 just for the type....hum.,

Slice
07-15-2007, 09:54 AM
Been out to long to qualify I think ..... plus im non-current Instrument .... but Id rather take my ATP in the 737 just for the type....hum.,

Maybe call Higher Power and see what they have to say. I'm sure you're not the first person to be in that boat.

C-17 Driver
07-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Been out to long to qualify I think ..... plus im non-current Instrument .... but Id rather take my ATP in the 737 just for the type....hum.,


I'm in the middle of my 737 type/ATP with Crew Pilot training. I posted here before about them. The course has been outstanding. There are 3 people in my class. The ground eval (oral) was yesterday and my check ride is on tuesday. What I really enjoy about it is that the small class size allows them to be more flexible. The examiner is more "in-house" if you know what I mean. If you have questions, just PM me and I can give you more details. Big picture is that I started on the 9th and will be done on the 17th. Just make sure you get your ATP written completed before you show up.

AV8ER2
07-22-2007, 04:38 AM
Experience , endurance, and attitude is what its all about in achieving success in a 90 program. I myself wouldn't feel comfortable flying for an airline at 500TT unlesss I had the knowledge but the mins have changed. I agree with many on here when experience is needed out of students/instructors to fully develop a knowledge base that will keep people safe in the air. I will be starting at ATP and know that it will be an intense experience with a lot of hard work. All I have to say is that Veteran Pilots and "common sense" have told me that we're all always learning.

Now as a prospective student at ATP, I feel it is an advantage towards people who really are serious about learning in a fast paced environment to crank out what they need to know and still continue to learn thereafter as a CFI in ME aircraft. I intend to develop my knowledge to a point where I feel comfortable with teaching students as I would expect to be taught, confidently, prior to interviewing with any regional. I just feel that it would be a less aggravating transition into the regionals and gaining the respect of the CAs out there. Now I admit I am a newbie to this industry, but I agree that ATP is known for preparing students for checkrides, but it's up to the students to develop and continue the learning process. The instructors/students I've talked to are all there for one common goal, and that is where the opportunity to learn lies with great favor for all students. It all depends on the students ability and attidude.:) Peace!

AV8ER2
07-22-2007, 04:39 AM
Does anyone have any feedback on ATP's Sacramento location? Believe me I've heard good and bad so lemme hear what others think?

Spartan07
07-22-2007, 07:44 AM
Mmm... Double-Double Animal Style with whole grilled and an order of animal style fries.... <<drool>> ...

Sorry to de-rail the topic but your avatar made me hungry. In and Out is one of the only things I miss about Cali

ShamH85
07-22-2007, 02:12 PM
Mmm... Double-Double Animal Style with whole grilled and an order of animal style fries.... <<drool>> ...

Damn I just might go get some today "Animal style" .. I usually get the double double with grilled onions, but have heard good things of the animal style from buddies... I gained weight in my highschool days eating there often... but beats any fast food chains burger in freshness and taste... mmm IN&OUT:o

Spartan07
07-22-2007, 04:14 PM
Yep yep. Animal style isn't for everybody but maaaaan it's goooood ;)

AV8ER2
07-22-2007, 05:02 PM
Damn I just might go get some today "Animal style" .. I usually get the double double with grilled onions, but have heard good things of the animal style from buddies... I gained weight in my highschool days eating there often... but beats any fast food chains burger in freshness and taste... mmm IN&OUT:o

maybe I should change the AVATAR, but its a student pilots best friend!:) Sorry for the off-track-ness

RxPilot
07-24-2007, 03:09 PM
How many hours are flown as a safety pilot? Are you ever alone in the plane while flying XC?

Seems pretty pricey if multi hours are flown in a PIC/Safety Pilot scenario.

keiundraj
07-25-2007, 04:39 AM
How many hours are flown as a safety pilot? Are you ever alone in the plane while flying XC?

Seems pretty pricey if multi hours are flown in a PIC/Safety Pilot scenario.

There's no more valuable time you can get IMO. You and another student going cross country. You make the decisions you practice CRM you plan your route, You get better exprience. Now you can do your cross contries with an instructor who's most likely going to be making all the decisions for you. I exprienced so much doing my cross contries, from flying in the storms, to learing how to deal with type A personalities. It was a good exprience and everyone I've talked to says it's a good exprience. Even the DE I did my Commercial ME couldn't believe they let 2 students fresh out of their Instrument Checkride take $.5million aircraft across contries.


Now to answer your question you get appox 75hrs during your X/C phase.

Rocket Man
07-25-2007, 07:34 AM
... exprience.... contries... exprienced ... contries .... learing .... exprience .... exprience .... contries.
Do yourself a favor. Use a spell checker when you submit your apps to the airlines (or anyone else). Seriously!

Slice
07-25-2007, 10:36 AM
There's no more valuable time you can get IMO. You and another student going cross country. You make the decisions you practice CRM you plan your route, You get better exprience. Now you can do your cross contries with an instructor who's most likely going to be making all the decisions for you. I exprienced so much doing my cross contries, from flying in the storms, to learing how to deal with type A personalities. It was a good exprience and everyone I've talked to says it's a good exprience. Even the DE I did my Commercial ME couldn't believe they let 2 students fresh out of their Instrument Checkride take $.5million aircraft across contries.


Now to answer your question you get appox 75hrs during your X/C phase.

There's a lot more valuable time out there besides safety pilot. Not to say that there's nothing that can't be learned but two low time guys practicing 'CRM' in a single pilot a/c, well there's only so much that can be done. Also, in the future, you may wish to fly around storms rather than through them...it will do wonders for your longevity on this planet.:D

keiundraj
07-25-2007, 10:43 AM
Also, in the future, you may wish to fly around storms rather than through them...it will do wonders for your longevity on this planet.:D

See that's one of the Lessons I learned, Not to fly through Level 4 Thunderstorms. I've done it once and see what it can do especially to Piper Seminole, when we got down all the paint was gone from the leading edges. Talking about Scared!!!! I've learned my lesson though, if my instructor was in there with me he probally would've told me better. Me and the other pilot were experimenting and we found out the results!:D

tobaknight
07-27-2007, 10:58 AM
Are there any current or recent ATP instructors here that could tell me which locations you can start instructing at fairly quickly, and which ones will require a wait in the Pit?

keiundraj
07-27-2007, 05:09 PM
You probably won't have to sit in the PIT they are really hurting for CFIs right now. Last I heard they were 14 CFIs Short!

da_flyn_hawyn
07-29-2007, 04:21 PM
I'm doing the CFI now and should be done by this week, or that's what they told me... they also told me that it only took two weeks to finish off all the instructor ratings, I think it's week four and no ratings. But I did get an email about if you decide to instruct you get a 500 dollar bonus, free rent during your stans class, free jet transition class(that's about $2,000 or $6,000 outside of ATP), and you can go to any location with out working in the Pit. Sounds pretty good to me.

Stereo2030
05-15-2009, 01:28 PM
I start ATP in Mesa, AZ in September (hopefully), I also checked out Delta Connection Academy---a no go.

Spoilers
05-15-2009, 03:27 PM
You probably won't have to sit in the PIT they are really hurting for CFIs right now. Last I heard they were 14 CFIs Short!

Last I heard there is a CFI Hiring Waiting List. It's around 70 people right now. And that's just to get to JAX. Some furloughed guys are going back. Don't expect to get a CFI gig with ATP as soon as you are done with the program!

Edit: I just realized this thread was from about 2 years ago!

250 or point 65
05-15-2009, 04:24 PM
nevermind.......