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View Full Version : Two questions


CTPILOT
12-03-2006, 05:54 PM
I rencently just started flight instructing and curious where to find syllabus for instr, and comm so I can follow an organized course outline. Also I am beginning to buy multi time with a friend anyone know the proper way to log flight time I heard mix things. Thanks


AVIVIII
12-03-2006, 06:22 PM
it would be easier if one of you had an MEI....

WhiteH2O
12-03-2006, 08:02 PM
Sporty's sent me a sample private syllabus a few months ago. It looked nice, better than the Jeppeson one that I use where I teach. Don't know about their instrument and commercial, but that is worth a try.

For logging multi, it is a lot better to get an MEI.


multipilot
12-03-2006, 09:34 PM
Jepp syllabus for instrument/commercial is okay. You won't be able to follow it exactly though. I can almost 100% guarantee that an instrument student will need more than three flight lessons on holding procedures.

Get your MEI. I would advise that you do not log multi-time unless you are in the front seat manipulating the flight controls. I've heard of some really stupid ways that people, even though they argue are legal, log multi-time.

I have also heard that airline companies do not count multi-PIC as a safety pilot. A friend of my has an interview with ExpressJet. He was right at 100 hours but they DQed nearly 2 hours of it because it was as a multi-engine safety pilot. He still gets the interview but has to buy more multi-time to meet mins.

CTPILOT
12-04-2006, 07:33 AM
thanks alot for the information ....yeah my friend and I that are both splitting the time are both MEI's.

rickair7777
12-04-2006, 08:37 AM
I have also heard that airline companies do not count multi-PIC as a safety pilot. A friend of my has an interview with ExpressJet. He was right at 100 hours but they DQed nearly 2 hours of it because it was as a multi-engine safety pilot. He still gets the interview but has to buy more multi-time to meet mins.

Most don't have a problem with SP time, I had plenty and nobody ever said anything. You might check with the airlines you are interested in to find out for sure what their policies are.

But I wouldn't go buy an extra 50 hour$ of twin time unless you really need to...

rickair7777
12-04-2006, 08:47 AM
thanks alot for the information ....yeah my friend and I that are both splitting the time are both MEI's.


How are you splitting it?

Safety Pilot time is 100% legal and commonly done.

But if you are taking turns giving each other dual on cross-country legs, that is NOT legal and could bite you in the butt. Even though the regs may not cleary state it, the FAA has consistently held that dual is only allowed for legitimate instructional purposes such as:
-Rating/Cert
-BFR
-IPC
-Aircraft Checkout
-Area/ Route familiarization

It would be impossible to make a case for dual-given if you were taking turns giving it to each other in the same airplane! If you are qualified to GIVE dual on a flight, you obviously have no need to receive dual on the return leg! :eek: If it's a one-time thing, sure go-ahead nobody would have an issue with that (call it a fam flight).

I'm not sure how the airlines feel about dual-given time building, but I would avoid it just based on the FAA issue. safety Pilot is the "accepted" loophole to share twin time!

LAfrequentflyer
12-04-2006, 09:46 AM
How exactly does safety pilot time work?

One pilot flies with the foggles and the other watches for traffic along the way? On the return leg pilots switch roles?

Also. The safety pilot would log a few minutes less time due to pilot flying the first leg would not be able to use foggles to taxi and takeoff. I assume at 300 feet or so the foggles go on...

-LAFF

rickair7777
12-04-2006, 10:15 AM
How exactly does safety pilot time work?

One pilot flies with the foggles and the other watches for traffic along the way? On the return leg pilots switch roles?

Also. The safety pilot would log a few minutes less time due to pilot flying the first leg would not be able to use foggles to taxi and takeoff. I assume at 300 feet or so the foggles go on...

-LAFF

You are correct. The industry standard is that the SP deducts 0.3 per leg to account for the hood being off for taxi, TO, and LDG. Example:

1.0 Hour Flight
Joe: Pilot (under the hood)
Jack: SP

Joe logs 1.0 TT, 0.7 simulated IFR, the approache(s) and the LDG.
Jack logs 0.7 TT.

To maximize shareable time, you normally fly all approaches to the missed except for the last one, which terminates in a LDG.

LAfrequentflyer
12-04-2006, 10:27 AM
You are correct. The industry standard is that the SP deducts 0.3 per leg to account for the hood being off for taxi, TO, and LDG. Example:

1.0 Hour Flight
Joe: Pilot (under the hood)
Jack: SP

Joe logs 1.0 TT, 0.7 simulated IFR, the approache(s) and the LDG.
Jack logs 0.7 TT.

To maximize shareable time, you normally fly all approaches to the missed except for the last one, which terminates in a LDG.


Good. Thanks...So to recap...SP is legit if done correctly - see above.

WhiteH2O
12-04-2006, 10:49 AM
Joe logs 1.0 TT, 0.7 simulated IFR, the approache(s) and the LDG.
Jack logs 0.7 TT.

As I understand, both log PIC as well assuming that both are rated in the airplane, right?

rickair7777
12-04-2006, 11:37 AM
As I understand, both log PIC as well assuming that both are rated in the airplane, right?


Correct. The SP must be rated in the airplane.

Pilotpip
12-05-2006, 09:44 PM
Shaun,

Get some clarification from your local FSDO. I'm in the rare minority that have a friendly POI that is more than happy to discuss and explain his interpretation of regs with me on a regular basis. This is the way it was explained to me when I asked:

Safety pilot is the only time when an aircraft that only requires one crew member is legally required to have two crew members. The pilot under the foggles is still PIC, since he is sole manipulator. As safety pilot, you are not manipulating controls, but a legally-required crew member so you can log the time but you are not the PIC. I don't safety pilot very often so I usually don't log it unless I'm in a twin. Even then I only add it to my total time, not PIC.

palgia841
12-05-2006, 10:26 PM
If you read the FARs it says you are allowed to log the time as safety pilot as SIC, since you become a ''required crewmember" for the type of operation conducted.

Having said that, I never log the time as SIC since you might go to an interview where a captain who does not fully understand the FARs (or interprets them HIS own way) will not like to see SIC time in a seminole, although it is legal.

avi8tor4life
12-06-2006, 09:00 PM
Ok here's another bit to throw into the mix.

Lifeguard flight in an aircraft requiring only one crew. The non profit company for what ever purpose requires two crew. So does the co-pilot log SIC time?

Pilotpip
12-07-2006, 10:47 AM
No. Insurance requirements and regulation are two totally different things that have nothing to do with each other.

rickair7777
12-07-2006, 12:41 PM
Ok here's another bit to throw into the mix.

Lifeguard flight in an aircraft requiring only one crew. The non profit company for what ever purpose requires two crew. So does the co-pilot log SIC time?


NO NO NO. Insurance requirements, company policies, local laws, etc that require an "SIC" do not create a valid FAA (or airline) justification to log it. Anyone who tells you othewise is either an idiot or trying to sell you some "SIC time".

The only exception is an aircraft that is certified for single-pilot but is operated under a 135/121 certificate that specifies two pilots for the operation conducted. OPSPECs are FAA documents, so it is legitimate in that case. A non-profit probably does not have a 135/121 certificate, but if they do, you can log it.

rickair7777
12-07-2006, 12:46 PM
Shaun,

Get some clarification from your local FSDO. I'm in the rare minority that have a friendly POI that is more than happy to discuss and explain his interpretation of regs with me on a regular basis. This is the way it was explained to me when I asked:

Safety pilot is the only time when an aircraft that only requires one crew member is legally required to have two crew members. The pilot under the foggles is still PIC, since he is sole manipulator. As safety pilot, you are not manipulating controls, but a legally-required crew member so you can log the time but you are not the PIC. I don't safety pilot very often so I usually don't log it unless I'm in a twin. Even then I only add it to my total time, not PIC.


I'll have to re-read the regs on that, I always logged it as PIC.