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View Full Version : Alaska Air Hiring


Reactivity
02-12-2018, 11:30 AM
Anybody hear anything yet from the January Meet and Greet at the Museum of Flight?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2517393-post2972.html

Apparently, somebody has.


sinsilvia666
02-12-2018, 11:50 AM
Just the thanks email as well here.

IndyAir Guy
02-12-2018, 03:20 PM
Anybody hear anything yet from the January Meet and Greet at the Museum of Flight?

Interviews are February 14 & 15 in Seattle for Boeings, they will provide travel and a hotel room.


Down2Wire
02-12-2018, 06:00 PM
Folks have been called from the meet & greet in SEA last month.

As previously posted interviews scheduled for 14 Feb and 15 Feb.

Rumor is AS will interview March, April and May. :D

waterboy
02-12-2018, 09:02 PM
Interviews are February 14 & 15 in Seattle for Boeings, they will provide travel and a hotel room.

They are providing travel and hotel room for the interview??

sparrowhawk
02-13-2018, 05:10 AM
There were 6 people invited for interviews from the meet and greet. The others will be sent invites for the April interview dates.

Steven1
02-13-2018, 06:01 PM
There were 6 people invited for interviews from the meet and greet. The others will be sent invites for the April interview dates.

Thanks for the info. Any idea how many invites will be sent out?

Reactivity
02-13-2018, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the info. Any idea how many invites will be sent out?

Four-and-a-half.

Steven1
02-14-2018, 05:11 AM
Four-and-a-half.

Thanks. That helps so much. I really enjoy the solid info you provided. It helps everyone in the industry.

If you are ever around my house you are invited for dinner.

757office
02-14-2018, 08:36 AM
Actually itís down to 1 and a half now.. they realized they wonít need the other 3 since skywest does all of our flying Thanks. That helps so much. I really enjoy the solid info you provided. It helps everyone in the industry.

If you are ever around my house you are invited for dinner.

Reactivity
02-14-2018, 10:33 AM
Thanks. That helps so much. I really enjoy the solid info you provided. It helps everyone in the industry.

If I had answered six, or eight, or twelve, would that have been better? Because it would have been just as accurate and authoritative as any other answer you're going to get here. Unless somebody can tell you when YOU can expect a call, what good is any of it? Until your phone rings, all you know is you haven't been called yet, but you're expecting a call in the next few months.

It's highly unlikely you're going to find anybody here with direct knowledge of the plan. And the one thing I keep hearing about the hiring process from the Alaska crews I've jumpseated with is, "It's a mystery to us." So other than reports after the fact, which may or may not be accurate (just look at the reports from the meet and greet - from people who were actually there - to find out how much variation there can be in the information you'll get), all you're likely to get here is conjecture, which is just as good as what I gave you.

Down2Wire
02-15-2018, 05:24 AM
15 of the 22 that interviewed yesterday were offered CJO's

More interviewing today

:)

Outfield
02-15-2018, 08:55 AM
15 of the 22 that interviewed yesterday were offered CJO's

More interviewing today

:)

Sorry for my ignorance, whatís a CJO.?

Reactivity
02-15-2018, 09:00 AM
Sorry for my ignorance, whatís a CJO.?

Itís an acronym, like so many others, used by airline pilots to show that theyíre part of the club.

More to your point, it stands for ďconditional job offerĒ.

RVator6
02-15-2018, 09:03 AM
Sorry for my ignorance, whatís a CJO.?

Conditional Job Offer

fssks17
02-16-2018, 01:27 PM
If one were to attend the NW Aviation career forum, what should they expect? What would be the best way to prepare? What type of suit, etc.? Given the changes in hiring processes, Iím just wondering what I can anticipate for this event, and how to make the best impression.

pete2800
02-16-2018, 02:23 PM
If one were to attend the NW Aviation career forum, what should they expect? What would be the best way to prepare? What type of suit, etc.? Given the changes in hiring processes, Iím just wondering what I can anticipate for this event, and how to make the best impression.

Dark suit, that's about it. There's no specific formula for attire, if you look professional that's all you need.

Based on the questions I was asked previously, have a good answer for "Why do you want to work at Alaska?" They're trying to hire people who actually want to work here. If you give off the vibe that this is just another stop on the job fair circuit for you, you'll have sunk your own battleship. Know a little bit about the company.

SoCalAirlifter
02-17-2018, 08:06 PM
Dark suit, that's about it. There's no specific formula for attire, if you look professional that's all you need.

Based on the questions I was asked previously, have a good answer for "Why do you want to work at Alaska?" They're trying to hire people who actually want to work here. If you give off the vibe that this is just another stop on the job fair circuit for you, you'll have sunk your own battleship. Know a little bit about the company.

ďSo I can used this Super Regional Airline as a building block to get my Delta Legacy Airline interview, they have a Seattle base too and fly wide-bodies out of here for green slip double time pay!Ē

VanDriver208
02-22-2018, 03:04 PM
Has anyone who spoke with the recruiters at the NGPA fair heard anything? Any feedback?

lukeh99
02-24-2018, 06:22 PM
Has anyone who spoke with the recruiters at the NGPA fair heard anything? Any feedback?

Nothing here.

Riverside
02-24-2018, 06:33 PM
Nothing here.

Took 2 months last year to hear back.

4andCounting
02-25-2018, 09:35 AM
For those interested in coming to Alaska. Do your homework and understand what you are getting yourselves into. I'm not going to bash the employee/labor relationship. As a current Alaska Bus Capt. I'm becoming concerned with the business path this company has taken. It over paid for the VX operation. It's immigration plan is not going well. Costs for the merger are way over budget and revenue is declining. There is a good chance we will post a loss in the first quarter. And although merger costs are at a peak in this quarter, challenges remain on the horizon. We are losing California passengers to competitors because of Alaska's downgrading the product. Revenue is down for ticket sales due rapidly expanding UAL capacity and fare wars with SW. Southwest is entering the hawaiian market soon which will again affect revenues and margins. Fuel costs are up 21% YOY. The list goes on.

At this time I would caution anyone looking at AAG. The viability of the plan in my mind is in serious question right now. And there are way less risky options out there right now.

Plus the schedules suck. ��

Good luck to those interested.

TripleCrank
02-25-2018, 10:50 AM
For those interested in coming to Alaska. Do your homework and understand what you are getting yourselves into. I'm not going to bash the employee/labor relationship. As a current Alaska Bus Capt. I'm becoming concerned with the business path this company has taken. It over paid for the VX operation. It's immigration plan is not going well. Costs for the merger are way over budget and revenue is declining. There is a good chance we will post a loss in the first quarter. And although merger costs are at a peak in this quarter, challenges remain on the horizon. We are losing California passengers to competitors because of Alaska's downgrading the product. Revenue is down for ticket sales due rapidly expanding UAL capacity and fare wars with SW. Southwest is entering the hawaiian market soon which will again affect revenues and margins. Fuel costs are up 21% YOY. The list goes on.

At this time I would caution anyone looking at AAG. The viability of the plan in my mind is in serious question right now. And there are way less risky options out there right now.

Plus the schedules suck. ��

Good luck to those interested.

Not writing this to directly discredit your post, instead to give a different perspective.

Over the last decade the airline industry in general has faced the worst of times followed by the best of times and we are now starting to even out. Fuel is returning to a sustainable price per barrel and casual/business travel is also returning to its normal, per-economic crash, levels (in general, not quoting any direct studies here).

Did the Air Group overpay for VX? Honestly, we will never know because we cannot see what the long term affect would have been if Jetblue had gained a West Coast foothold. On paper, yes it looks like AAG overpaid, in reality, only time (more than a few years) will tell.

If we are losing passengers to competitors then we are gaining new ones to replace them as our load capacity numbers are in line with previous years, quarters and months.

Look at any of the major airline mergers in the past decade, they are EXPENSIVE, tough on labor moral and often take longer than anticipated to complete. Before we judge the success or failure of the AS/VX merger we have to give it time to complete. How can you judge a cake if all you have done is mix the ingredients but have not let it bake?

The main point of the original post is 100% correct, do your research before going anywhere (do not let that research come 100% from APC). It is great to see a healthy pilot job market again, go to the flight operation that will make you the happiest.

For my own personal reasons that operation for me was Alaska Airlines and I am very happy to hang my hat here (though I hope that hat becomes optional in the near future). My reasons are not your reasons so again, do your due diligence, pick your companies, take the first class date you get and enjoy your time off.

airb320
02-25-2018, 11:41 AM
Not writing this to directly discredit your post, instead to give a different perspective.

Over the last decade the airline industry in general has faced the worst of times followed by the best of times and we are now starting to even out. Fuel is returning to a sustainable price per barrel and casual/business travel is also returning to its normal, per-economic crash, levels (in general, not quoting any direct studies here).

Did the Air Group overpay for VX? Honestly, we will never know because we cannot see what the long term affect would have been if Jetblue had gained a West Coast foothold. On paper, yes it looks like AAG overpaid, in reality, only time (more than a few years) will tell.

If we are losing passengers to competitors then we are gaining new ones to replace them as our load capacity numbers are in line with previous years, quarters and months.

Look at any of the major airline mergers in the past decade, they are EXPENSIVE, tough on labor moral and often take longer than anticipated to complete. Before we judge the success or failure of the AS/VX merger we have to give it time to complete. How can you judge a cake if all you have done is mix the ingredients but have not let it bake?

The main point of the original post is 100% correct, do your research before going anywhere (do not let that research come 100% from APC). It is great to see a healthy pilot job market again, go to the flight operation that will make you the happiest.

For my own personal reasons that operation for me was Alaska Airlines and I am very happy to hang my hat here (though I hope that hat becomes optional in the near future). My reasons are not your reasons so again, do your due diligence, pick your companies, take the first class date you get and enjoy your time off.

Very well put...👍

barondrvr
02-25-2018, 02:02 PM
...., go to the flight operation that will make you the happiest.

For my own personal reasons that operation for me was Alaska Airlines and I am very happy to hang my hat here (though I hope that hat becomes optional in the near future). My reasons are not your reasons so again, do your due diligence, pick your companies, take the first class date you get and enjoy your time off.

Who talks like that? Go to the "flight operation"? I'm excited to fly with people eager to work here but know what you're getting into guys and girls

TripleCrank
02-25-2018, 02:18 PM
Who talks like that? Go to the "flight operation"? I'm excited to fly with people eager to work here but know what you're getting into guys and girls

Using ďFlight OperationĒ in the context of both 121 Airline and 135 Corporate jobs; just a way to encompass both together. I feel some unhappy airline pilots would find what they are looking for in the corporate world.

Reactivity
02-25-2018, 07:13 PM
Who talks like that? Go to the "flight operation"?

Yeah, seriously. Noob. Anybody who has been around knows the proper airline pilot phraseology is, ďget on property at the flight operation...Ē.

OCCP
02-26-2018, 06:44 PM
We keep cutting routes and will probably post a loss. No one else is shrinking and losing money. Think about that while youíre waiting for the phone to ring. Prospective pilots should view this as an opportunity to interview Alaska because you have more to offer them than they have to offer you.

airb320
02-27-2018, 06:23 AM
No Airline, or business for that matter, has ever survived by shrinking to profitability!
Itís business 101...

Work2much
02-27-2018, 09:45 AM
We keep cutting routes and will probably post a loss. No one else is shrinking and losing money. Think about that while youíre waiting for the phone to ring. Prospective pilots should view this as an opportunity to interview Alaska because you have more to offer them than they have to offer you.

So far as I know we aren't losing planes so we're not shrinking. Cutting routes and then redeploying those planes on different routes is what's happening. Now, we have no scope so that's REALLY messed up and that's a serious threat. However, we're not shrinking...still hiring actually. Sooo there's that.
Also, no other major is in the middle of a merger so maybe that's why we have a different financial situation that anyone else. Remember that after the 1st quarter and going into the 3rd-4th we will be very profitable. Soooo there's that too.
I know you think the sky is falling ALL the time and I"m not sure how you sleep with all of that stress. I guess I don't care. Anyway...it's an interesting time to be at Alaska...lots of new changes and it's uneasy for sure. But it's not doom and gloom like some would have you believe.

flysnoopy76
02-27-2018, 06:49 PM
So far as I know we aren't losing planes so we're not shrinking. Cutting routes and then redeploying those planes on different routes is what's happening. Now, we have no scope so that's REALLY messed up and that's a serious threat. However, we're not shrinking...still hiring actually. Sooo there's that.
Also, no other major is in the middle of a merger so maybe that's why we have a different financial situation that anyone else. Remember that after the 1st quarter and going into the 3rd-4th we will be very profitable. Soooo there's that too.
I know you think the sky is falling ALL the time and I"m not sure how you sleep with all of that stress. I guess I don't care. Anyway...it's an interesting time to be at Alaska...lots of new changes and it's uneasy for sure. But it's not doom and gloom like some would have you believe.

Agreed no announcement of a loss of airplanes...yet. A glance at flights later this year on the virgin side reflect that routes currently served by the 319 are all 320. Looking further I couldnít find any 319 flights on the schedule beyond the summer, being fair I didnít look at every day but still. Could be they are being painted then but I think a higher likelyhood is that they will be gone. So a 10 airplane reduction there, could contribute to the recent cancellation of airbus classes.

ArcticDog
02-27-2018, 09:59 PM
Agreed no announcement of a loss of airplanes...yet. A glance at flights later this year on the virgin side reflect that routes currently served by the 319 are all 320. Looking further I couldn’t find any 319 flights on the schedule beyond the summer, being fair I didn’t look at every day but still. Could be they are being painted then but I think a higher likelyhood is that they will be gone. So a 10 airplane reduction there, could contribute to the recent cancellation of airbus classes.

From the recently published SEC 10-K filing, page 53, under fleet count, "The expected fleet counts at December 31, 2018 and 2019 are subject to change. We intend to reduce the capital investment spend driven by fleet counts above, specifically in 2018, 2019 and 2020, which may require deferral of certain aircraft deliveries." Also, they have quietly dropped LAX-MCO, SFO-FLL, SFO-MEX as well as some CPA flying in the coming months. Watch their actions, not their words.

450knotOffice
02-27-2018, 10:29 PM
We keep cutting routes and will probably post a loss. No one else is shrinking and losing money. Think about that while youíre waiting for the phone to ring. Prospective pilots should view this as an opportunity to interview Alaska because you have more to offer them than they have to offer you.


So far as I know we aren't losing planes so we're not shrinking. Cutting routes and then redeploying those planes on different routes is what's happening. Now, we have no scope so that's REALLY messed up and that's a serious threat. However, we're not shrinking...still hiring actually. Sooo there's that.
Also, no other major is in the middle of a merger so maybe that's why we have a different financial situation that anyone else. Remember that after the 1st quarter and going into the 3rd-4th we will be very profitable. Soooo there's that too.
I know you think the sky is falling ALL the time and I"m not sure how you sleep with all of that stress. I guess I don't care. Anyway...it's an interesting time to be at Alaska...lots of new changes and it's uneasy for sure. But it's not doom and gloom like some would have you believe.

Yep. I have friends on both sides of the AS house, and while they all admit things could be better, none project the continual doom and gloom of this OCCP character. Looking back at his post history, itís ALL heís about. Complain complain complain. The sky is falling. This dude would not be happy at Delta. Heís just one of those perpetually angry people (ďno Iím not, Iím just a realistĒ).

The truth is somewhere in the middle of ďthe sky is fallingĒ and ďthis place is all unicorns and rainbowsĒ.

OCCP is firmly in the ďSky is fallingĒ camp.

cesnacaptn
02-28-2018, 12:45 AM
Agreed no announcement of a loss of airplanes...yet. A glance at flights later this year on the virgin side reflect that routes currently served by the 319 are all 320. Looking further I couldnít find any 319 flights on the schedule beyond the summer, being fair I didnít look at every day but still. Could be they are being painted then but I think a higher likelyhood is that they will be gone. So a 10 airplane reduction there, could contribute to the recent cancellation of airbus classes.

How far out are you looking where you donít see any 319s? Alaska uses a generic place holder for routes where a specific configuration isnít already known.

For example, this fall, West coast to Hawaii, with the exception of SFO and LAX, show -800s. SFO and LAX to HNL show 8F and 141Y, which I believe to be a generic Airbus placeholder. LAX and SFO to JFK show 8/141 for all flights even though some of those will likely be the 321neo.

Another example is if you look at SEA-ANC this fall. Most flights show 12F and 156Y, which is a configuration that doesnít even exist.

As a date moves closer and the airline can judge how strong or weak bookings are, they will assign a -700, -800, or 900er on a route.

One last thought, my hunch is that what we see in employee travel after April is far from reality. After we are single PSS, I bet they swap a bunch of Airbus and Boeing routes.

cesnacaptn
02-28-2018, 12:55 AM
From the recently published SEC 10-K filing, page 53, under fleet count, "The expected fleet counts at December 31, 2018 and 2019 are subject to change. We intend to reduce the capital investment spend driven by fleet counts above, specifically in 2018, 2019 and 2020, which may require deferral of certain aircraft deliveries." Also, they have quietly dropped LAX-MCO, SFO-FLL, SFO-MEX as well as some CPA flying in the coming months. Watch their actions, not their words.

They may have dropped SFO-MEX, but they swapped that landing slot with an additional LAX-MEX. Althought they dropped LAX-MCO and SFO-FLL, they added frequency on SEA-ORD/BUR/BNA over the summer. LAX-LIR goes from 4x per week to daily.

Not sure where that puts us net block hours, but it wasnít a total loss of flying.

It sounds like the company is pumping the brakes on growth for the moment, cutting weakness and adding where they are strong to show some better numbers to Wall Street.

flysnoopy76
02-28-2018, 10:46 AM
How far out are you looking where you donít see any 319s? Alaska uses a generic place holder for routes where a specific configuration isnít already known.

For example, this fall, West coast to Hawaii, with the exception of SFO and LAX, show -800s. SFO and LAX to HNL show 8F and 141Y, which I believe to be a generic Airbus placeholder. LAX and SFO to JFK show 8/141 for all flights even though some of those will likely be the 321neo.

Another example is if you look at SEA-ANC this fall. Most flights show 12F and 156Y, which is a configuration that doesnít even exist.

As a date moves closer and the airline can judge how strong or weak bookings are, they will assign a -700, -800, or 900er on a route.

One last thought, my hunch is that what we see in employee travel after April is far from reality. After we are single PSS, I bet they swap a bunch of Airbus and Boeing routes.

Could be, just looking fall winter time frame on the Alaska website, I couldnít find any routes for the 319.

Stinger6
02-28-2018, 07:07 PM
They may have dropped SFO-MEX, but they swapped that landing slot with an additional LAX-MEX. Althought they dropped LAX-MCO and SFO-FLL, they added frequency on SEA-ORD/BUR/BNA over the summer. LAX-LIR goes from 4x per week to daily.

Not sure where that puts us net block hours, but it wasnít a total loss of flying.

It sounds like the company is pumping the brakes on growth for the moment, cutting weakness and adding where they are strong to show some better numbers to Wall Street.

I mean who am I...?
But I got an unsolicited text from the broker just today about the stock being a terrific investment. "Critically undervalued due to over-exaggerated and extremely short sighted fears... ...with a track record of high growth (it) is currently experiencing growing pains, but will emerge stronger...The current valuation leaves a lot of room for profit, with very little downside risk."

I'm in Corporate America returning to Part 121 flying after a long absence...the broker is successfully guiding Fortune 100 companies. Alaska will be fine.

Let the anonymous internet flaming begin.

rickair7777
03-01-2018, 07:43 AM
I mean who am I...?
But I got an unsolicited text from the broker just today about the stock being a terrific investment. "Critically undervalued due to over-exaggerated and extremely short sighted fears... ...with a track record of high growth (it) is currently experiencing growing pains, but will emerge stronger...The current valuation leaves a lot of room for profit, with very little downside risk."

I'm in Corporate America returning to Part 121 flying after a long absence...the broker is successfully guiding Fortune 100 companies. Alaska will be fine.

Let the anonymous internet flaming begin.

Pilots may have different interests than managers. We are in it for the long haul, due to the seniority system.

Managers need to at least pay lip service to the long haul, but at heart they may have a shorter focal length.

At AS in the short/mid term, hypothetically, managers might be able to hunker down, not grow much, stay in the black, keep their jobs and bonuses. They might get crushed by vastly larger competitors in the long run (senior managers tend to be older, probably not planning on working for another 20-30 years). Bird in the hand.

Or they could go out on a leveraged limb, try to grow rapidly, acquire, merge, etc. Might be successful, or it might cost them their jobs sooner rather than later. Bird in the bush.

Reality? Probably in between.

AKpilotdude
03-03-2018, 11:51 AM
I heard (second hand) from one of the section chiefs that interviews were over for this year. Can anyone confirm? At the NW conference in Puyallup the HR folks were saying maybe there would be some in August, the CPís said they didnít know. At the meet and greet at BFI in January they said there would be 400 hired this year. Are there already that many in the pool?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

TripleCrank
03-03-2018, 12:36 PM
I heard (second hand) from one of the section chiefs that interviews were over for this year. Can anyone confirm? At the NW conference in Puyallup the HR folks were saying maybe there would be some in August, the CPís said they didnít know. At the meet and greet at BFI in January they said there would be 400 hired this year. Are there already that many in the pool?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Talking to a Horizon friend of mine and he has a class date in June so they are already projected out at least that far.

Also they are trying to lower the time in the pool for off the street hires so late summer interviews for Fall/Winter dates makes sense.

IamAlaska
03-03-2018, 12:56 PM
I mean who am I...?
But I got an unsolicited text from the broker just today about the stock being a terrific investment. "Critically undervalued due to over-exaggerated and extremely short sighted fears... ...with a track record of high growth (it) is currently experiencing growing pains, but will emerge stronger...The current valuation leaves a lot of room for profit, with very little downside risk."

I'm in Corporate America returning to Part 121 flying after a long absence...the broker is successfully guiding Fortune 100 companies. Alaska will be fine.

Let the anonymous internet flaming begin.

Yesterday B.M. mentioned in a company e-mail that Q1 they are anticipating the first quarterly loss since 2009...and SW hasn't started competing with us to Hawaii yet.

FogHorn
03-03-2018, 01:23 PM
Last update I read said interviews will resume in May. Planning on 250 this year.

ThePlaneSaidSo
03-03-2018, 07:23 PM
Last update I read said interviews will resume in May. Planning on 250 this year.



Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ForeverJunior
03-06-2018, 09:23 AM
The ANC BCP sent out a message yesterday about hiring.

Basically, he stated that ALK is going to show its first Q1 loss in 7 years. Management has decided to push certain costs down the road and slow growth by 4% for the year. This means that the aggressive hiring at the start of this year has already put us at the new goal. So, the decision has been made to suspend recruiting events and interviews until further notice... potentially for the rest of 2018. He said that he is going to hold off on meet & greets. He finished his E-Mail by saying that 9 pilots have resigned so far this year.

It would be nice for all the pilot group to get a memo on the pilot web page about the state of hiring.

Anyway, I've seen this movie before. They slow down / stop hiring and then it comes back to bite them in the a$$ later. Just watch. It will happen.

Slim6890
03-06-2018, 09:44 AM
The ANC BCP sent out a message yesterday about hiring.

Basically, he stated that ALK is going to show its first Q1 loss in 7 years. Management has decided to push certain costs down the road and slow growth by 4% for the year. This means that the aggressive hiring at the start of this year has already put us at the new goal. So, the decision has been made to suspend recruiting events and interviews until further notice... potentially for the rest of 2018. He said that he is going to hold off on meet & greets. He finished his E-Mail by saying that 9 pilots have resigned so far this year.

It would be nice for all the pilot group to get a memo on the pilot web page about the state of hiring.

Anyway, I've seen this movie before. They slow down / stop hiring and then it comes back to bite them in the a$$ later. Just watch. It will happen.

United pull back on their hiring as well. Not a good sign.

full of luv
03-06-2018, 09:50 AM
The ANC BCP sent out a message yesterday about hiring.

Basically, he stated that ALK is going to show its first Q1 loss in 7 years. Management has decided to push certain costs down the road and slow growth by 4% for the year. This means that the aggressive hiring at the start of this year has already put us at the new goal. So, the decision has been made to suspend recruiting events and interviews until further notice... potentially for the rest of 2018. He said that he is going to hold off on meet & greets. He finished his E-Mail by saying that 9 pilots have resigned so far this year.

It would be nice for all the pilot group to get a memo on the pilot web page about the state of hiring.

Anyway, I've seen this movie before. They slow down / stop hiring and then it comes back to bite them in the a$$ later. Just watch. It will happen.

Don't worry, that's next quarters problem....

Work2much
03-06-2018, 10:41 AM
Seems like a repeat of last year. Got hired in February and was told to expect a class 4 weeks later. After a couple more rounds of interviews they stopped classes and suspended recruiting and hiring. Then in July they freaked out and said "GO!" and things picked back up. Not saying this will happen again this year but it sounds familiar. I'm thinking 2018 will be a very slow hiring year vs last year.

ELAC321
03-06-2018, 11:11 AM
The ANC BCP sent out a message yesterday about hiring.

Basically, he stated that ALK is going to show its first Q1 loss in 7 years. Management has decided to push certain costs down the road and slow growth by 4% for the year. This means that the aggressive hiring at the start of this year has already put us at the new goal. So, the decision has been made to suspend recruiting events and interviews until further notice... potentially for the rest of 2018. He said that he is going to hold off on meet & greets. He finished his E-Mail by saying that 9 pilots have resigned so far this year.

It would be nice for all the pilot group to get a memo on the pilot web page about the state of hiring.

Anyway, I've seen this movie before. They slow down / stop hiring and then it comes back to bite them in the a$$ later. Just watch. It will happen.

Wonder about those sitting in the pool for a June /July class date

flysnoopy76
03-06-2018, 11:20 AM
Any guesses on how long it takes them to start discussing furloughs, you know so we can ďwin togetherĒ.

Pogey Bait
03-06-2018, 11:47 AM
Any guesses on how long it takes them to start discussing furloughs, you know so we can ďwin togetherĒ.

Wouldnít that be a nice little treat? Two separate lists, what could go wrong there?

BiloxiJack
03-06-2018, 01:19 PM
This is my worst fear. How real of a possibility are furloughs?

What an absolute embarrassment would be if we furloughed while everyone else is hiring as many as possible. I wonder how deep the furlough percentage would cut?
Any guesses on how long it takes them to start discussing furloughs, you know so we can ďwin togetherĒ.

echelon
03-06-2018, 01:34 PM
This is my worst fear. How real of a possibility are furloughs?

What an absolute embarrassment would be if we furloughed while everyone else is hiring as many as possible. I wonder how deep the furlough percentage would cut?

Well we're only a month or two past when they were offering and encouraging us to take "voluntary LOA's (with no benefits, of course)." Since those were such a ###tty deal that may as well have been considered a voluntary furlough.

TripleCrank
03-06-2018, 01:52 PM
Well we're only a month or two past when they were offering and encouraging us to take "voluntary LOA's (with no benefits, of course)." Since those were such a ###tty deal that may as well have been considered a voluntary furlough.

I have not heard of any pilot volunteer LOAs being offered.

Mea25000
03-06-2018, 02:04 PM
Relax no one is getting furloughed... obviously if the economy tanks or there is a terrorist attack all bets are off but right now everyoneís job is safe.

echelon
03-06-2018, 02:11 PM
I have not heard of any pilot volunteer LOAs being offered.

VX side, to compensate for overstaffing (proper staffing?) due to planes getting painted and heavy checks

Ray Red
03-06-2018, 02:34 PM
Curious as to why the announcement of a pending quarterly loss hasn't made it into any news that I've seen. Stock price has even gone up.

Fixnem2Flyinem
03-06-2018, 02:53 PM
Forgive my ignorance on the matter, but if you overpay about a billion or so for a dying LCC wouldnít you expect a rough quarter or two after the merger? Itís not like VA was booming prior to the purchase.

Arctichicken
03-06-2018, 03:35 PM
Relax, no furloughs are in the near future unless there's a massive terrorist attack, in which case everyone is SOL. When the company furloughed in '06, it was a big mistake as they cut too deep. A few years later, Angle Lake actually admitted their mistake.
The first quarter loss will be another form of creative accounting. These guys are masters at it. They tell investors one thing and tell its employees another. These sort of games have been played for decades so everyone chill and focus. Angle Lake is prepping early for 2020.
This third string management team can't seem to follow through with the "smoothest merger" promise. I guess that's what happens when a company is suckered into grossly overpaying for a mediocre company. No offense/disrespect to ex-Virgin employees. VX had a great product but did not generate much revenue. At the end of the day, it's always about the $.
No one to blame but management, once again. Successful business model=taking care of 1) Employees 2) Customers, then 3) Share Holders/BOD. It is obvious that Angle Lake's model is upside down and outdated. BT and BM chose status quo while recklessly cracking the whip on their work horse. As the saying goes, "change or die". They love catchy phrases like "we are all pulling together" but are we really? I vote for a new logo aircraft with a dog sled, where the dogs are labeled "employees" with BT & BM sitting in the sled holding a big sack of $$$. It will be our "The suckers are pulling us to the bank" logo eskimo jet!
As for Angle Lake, either they will come out of this stronger than ever before or fail miserably and cash out. Either way, they win. Once again, the rest of us will helplessly watch this show from the sidelines and hope for the best. Sadly, most of us have seen this movie before more than once.

airb320
03-06-2018, 04:08 PM
Relax, no furloughs are in the near future unless there's a massive terrorist attack, in which case everyone is SOL. When the company furloughed in '06, it was a big mistake as they cut too deep. A few years later, Angle Lake actually admitted their mistake.
The first quarter loss will be another form of creative accounting. These guys are masters at it. They tell investors one thing and tell its employees another. These sort of games have been played for decades so everyone chill and focus. Angle Lake is prepping early for 2020.
This third string management team can't seem to follow through with the "smoothest merger" promise. I guess that's what happens when a company is suckered into grossly overpaying for a mediocre company. No offense/disrespect to ex-Virgin employees. VX had a great product but did not generate much revenue. At the end of the day, it's always about the $.
No one to blame but management, once again. Successful business model=taking care of 1) Employees 2) Customers, then 3) Share Holders/BOD. It is obvious that Angle Lake's model is upside down and outdated. BT and BM chose status quo while recklessly cracking the whip on their work horse. As the saying goes, "change or die". They love catchy phrases like "we are all pulling together" but are we really? I vote for a new logo aircraft with a dog sled, where the dogs are labeled "employees" with BT & BM sitting in the sled holding a big sack of $$$. It will be our "The suckers are pulling us to the bank" logo eskimo jet!
As for Angle Lake, either they will come out of this stronger than ever before or fail miserably and cash out. Either way, they win. Once again, the rest of us will helplessly watch this show from the sidelines and hope for the best. Sadly, most of us have seen this movie before more than once.

Just a heads up Arctichicken we have had the same ****** over here at VX, constantly saying Ďwe want your inputí, Ďthank you for all you doí, but in reality VX did NOT want to hear from us nor did they listen!
Same ****** here, different day...

ShyGuy
03-06-2018, 05:52 PM
Furloughs? If only there was a document that would stipulate what can happen to us during the merger process............



TPA
Section 7

A. Furlough. Alaska and Virgin America, and their successor or survivor, and AAG will provide the following furlough protection:

1) No Pilot will be placed on furlough, if at all, until the sooner of July 31, 2019 or one (1) year after the Operational Merger Date. This protection will also be included as a required term in the JCBA.

2) AAG, the Airline Parties, and ALPA agree to the Letters of Agreement attached to this TPA as Attachments C and D, to take effect on the Corporate Merger Closing Date.

3) An Airline Party shall be excused from compliance with Section 7.A.1 for the period of time that either a Circumstance Beyond an Airline Partyís Control causes it to reduce or cancel service, or a governmental agency requirement causes it to reduce or cancel service as a condition of approval of the transactions contemplated by the Corporate Merger Agreement, so long as the listed event is the cause of such non-compliance. ďCircumstance Beyond an Airline Partyís ControlĒ includes but is not limited to: an act of nature; an ongoing labor dispute; grounding or repossession of a substantial number of aircraft operated by the Airline Party by a government agency or court order; loss or destruction of the Airline Partyís aircraft; involuntary reduction in flight operations due either to a governmental action(s)/requirement(s) or to a decrease in available fuel supply or other critical materials for the Airline Partyís operations; revocation of an Airline Partyís operating certificate; war emergency; a terrorist act; or a substantial delay in the delivery of aircraft scheduled for delivery, provided that as to any of the above circumstances the applicable occurrence has a material and substantial impact on the Airline Party.

The phrase ďCircumstance Beyond an Air line Partyís ControlĒ does not include any economic or financial considerations including, but not limited to, the price of fuel, aircraft or other supplies, the cost of labor, the level of revenues, the state of the economy, the financial state of the Airline Party, or the relative profitability or unprofitability of the Airline Partyís then-current operations in the absence of the circumstances described in the preceding sentence.

Airbuzzer
03-08-2018, 05:12 PM
Hi everyone, i am looking to attens OBAP career fair in Vegas
To be able to speak to recruiters. However reading into this thread
I feel like it might be a long shot for me. Does any know what can i
Expect at OBAP? Do we get a chance to speak to an Alaska air recruiter? Is it a meet n greet? Is it an interview?

3200TT
2500 a320 (foreign air carrier experience)
A320 type
No degree

Thanks in advance!

flysnoopy76
03-08-2018, 05:55 PM
Iím not sure they will even be there. According to the company hiring is done for the year.

rickair7777
03-08-2018, 06:14 PM
Hi everyone, i am looking to attens OBAP career fair in Vegas
To be able to speak to recruiters. However reading into this thread
I feel like it might be a long shot for me. Does any know what can i
Expect at OBAP? Do we get a chance to speak to an Alaska air recruiter? Is it a meet n greet? Is it an interview?

3200TT
2500 a320 (foreign air carrier experience)
A320 type
No degree

Thanks in advance!

Long shot. You probably need 6K, a degree, and some TPIC. The bus type might help a bit.

clb2vnav
03-08-2018, 07:45 PM
Hi everyone, i am looking to attens OBAP career fair in Vegas
To be able to speak to recruiters. However reading into this thread
I feel like it might be a long shot for me. Does any know what can i
Expect at OBAP? Do we get a chance to speak to an Alaska air recruiter? Is it a meet n greet? Is it an interview?

3200TT
2500 a320 (foreign air carrier experience)
A320 type
No degree

Thanks in advance!

Hi there,
I have hours similar to you (3000TT, 1500 121, B-757/767 and CL-65 types, working on my degree) and was told I needed 1000 TPIC at the NW Aviation Career Forum.
Wouldn't hurt to go speak to them anyway. At least, you can network and ask questions and stuff.

iHateAMR
03-09-2018, 02:23 AM
Long shot. You probably need 6K, a degree, and some TPIC. The bus type might help a bit.

And 500 hours of volunteer work at a soup kitchen.

rickair7777
03-09-2018, 04:58 AM
And 500 hours of volunteer work at a soup kitchen.

For DAL? or AS?

Packrat
03-09-2018, 07:10 AM
For DAL? or AS?

AS is psycho about public service.

thwhite2000
03-09-2018, 07:31 AM
Hi everyone, i am looking to attens OBAP career fair in Vegas
To be able to speak to recruiters. However reading into this thread
I feel like it might be a long shot for me. Does any know what can i
Expect at OBAP? Do we get a chance to speak to an Alaska air recruiter? Is it a meet n greet? Is it an interview?

3200TT
2500 a320 (foreign air carrier experience)
A320 type
No degree

Thanks in advance!

I was told similar to what others here were told at the NW Aviation conference last month - 4500TT and +1000 TPIC are competitive. Hiring events are definitely tracked though. Iíve also heard that when you go to events that are Alaska only, such as the NW Conference or Oshkosh, itís valued even more. So go meet them and network when you can, while you continue to build more experience. It will only help. Unfortunately, no one knows where or when theyíre going to show up next.

JetDoc
03-09-2018, 09:45 AM
From the recruiting page this morning,

"Last November, we were excited to receive so many applications from pilots who want to fly for us at Alaska Airlines. As a result of those applications, we were able to successfully fill our classes through the first half of this year. If you applied last November and havenít heard back from us, we hope to bring you good news later this year when we begin interviews again. Thank you for your patience and continued interest in Alaska Airlines."

OCCP
03-09-2018, 06:19 PM
People with 1000+ tpic are over qualified for this place.

Alaska offers:
A crap contract
Little attrition
No scope
No growth
Horrible mgmt/labor relationship
A historically weak pilot group
No direction
No brand identity,
We are posting a loss(the only legacy to do so)

And southwest hasnít even started flying to Hawaii yet. Then weíre really screwed!

But...we have a fresh west coast vibe according to our dictators

Pogey Bait
03-10-2018, 05:07 AM
AS is psycho about public service.

What year were you hired by Alaska?

Packrat
03-10-2018, 06:49 AM
What year were you hired by Alaska?

1990. No public service requirement back then.

Work2much
03-10-2018, 08:12 AM
Firm job fair dates form the CP office:

Recruiting Events

∑ International Women in Aviation Conference, Mar. 22-24

∑ Great Alaska Aviation Gathering, May 5-6

∑ Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals, Aug. 15 Ė 17

ThePlaneSaidSo
03-10-2018, 09:09 AM
Firm job fair dates form the CP office:



Recruiting Events



∑ International Women in Aviation Conference, Mar. 22-24



∑ Great Alaska Aviation Gathering, May 5-6



∑ Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals, Aug. 15 Ė 17



What happened to the ďno recruiting events/interviews until further notice e-mailĒ that went out last week?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CassinAK
03-10-2018, 12:13 PM
Scott Day put out hiring numbers of 170-200 this year in his latest email. 68 have already started class.

OCCP
03-10-2018, 02:35 PM
Far cry from the 400 they said before.

CassinAK
03-10-2018, 04:33 PM
Far cry from the 400 they said before.



Yep. And if we donít demand Scope in 2020 or before the numbers will continue to shrink.

Packrat
03-10-2018, 05:07 PM
"2000 pilots by the year 2000." Anyone here remember that?

CassinAK
03-10-2018, 05:10 PM
When I was hired it was 2500 in the next 7 years.

iHateAMR
03-11-2018, 04:44 AM
What year were you hired by Alaska?

2013 - 2015 was when Alaska was turning pilots away without volunteer experience. Several McChord reservists were told they needed more community service (even more than signing a check up to and including their lives to Uncle Sam) to be even looked at. When most of those guys went to Delta, and the number of applications fell significantly, the requirement was eased.

OCCP
03-11-2018, 10:25 AM
Those guys who wound up at Delta probably thankful now. Alaskaís arrogance is whatís going to sink this ship

Work2much
03-12-2018, 06:06 AM
Those guys who wound up at Delta probably thankful now. Alaskaís arrogance is whatís going to sink this ship

https://images-production.global.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/photos/file/46428/gif-7.gif?auto=compress&crop=top&fit=max&q=55&w=750

OCCP
03-12-2018, 07:07 AM
Show me one thing Alaska is doing right.

FogHorn
03-12-2018, 10:32 AM
https://images-production.global.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/photos/file/46428/gif-7.gif?auto=compress&crop=top&fit=max&q=55&w=750

Well played.

SoCalAirlifter
03-12-2018, 07:15 PM
Show me one thing Alaska is doing right.

Protecting the shareholders???

Milking the JCBA all the way to arbitration?

Or how about giving kudos and attaboys to employees? (Lip service over monetary compensation).....

or paying off our union....?!?!

Beans
03-13-2018, 12:33 PM
What happened to the ďno recruiting events/interviews until further notice e-mailĒ that went out last week?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im assuming resignations have started to build up this past 2 months and they know they will get a bunch more in the next 6 months.

echelon
03-13-2018, 05:26 PM
Im assuming resignations have started to build up this past 2 months and they know they will get a bunch more in the next 6 months.

How on earth is that a safe assumption? Why not attribute it to simple incompetence on the part of the people projecting hiring numbers, that seems a lot more likely

airb320
03-13-2018, 06:03 PM
What worries me the most is by reading all these comments that the incompetence here at AS is very similar to what it was at VX. Not what I expected from a ďLegacyĒ carrier. Hmmm...

ForeverJunior
03-13-2018, 06:41 PM
What worries me the most is by reading all these comments that the incompetence here at AS is very similar to what it was at VX. Not what I expected from a ďLegacyĒ carrier. Hmmm...

Categorized as a legacy, run like a regional...

This management team has a regional airline mentality. They are just a bunch of CPAs pinching pennies.

No vision, no leadership, and no wide-bodies... This is no legacy airline.

SoCalAirlifter
03-13-2018, 06:46 PM
What worries me the most is by reading all these comments that the incompetence here at AS is very similar to what it was at VX. Not what I expected from a ďLegacyĒ carrier. Hmmm...

Ha! Donít be fooled, ďLegacyĒ by age......super regional by character and actions.....I am disappointed too. I interned here at Alaska back around the time of 9-11. It was a different company then and it has morphed big time into what is now, so sad.

ZINTKAZ
03-13-2018, 08:36 PM
Categorized as a legacy, run like a regional...

This management team has a regional airline mentality. They are just a bunch of CPAs pinching pennies.

No vision, no leadership, and no wide-bodies... This is no legacy airline.


Couldnít have said it better myself.......

Going2Baja
03-19-2018, 10:51 AM
Categorized as a legacy, run like a regional...

This management team has a regional airline mentality. They are just a bunch of CPAs pinching pennies.

No vision, no leadership, and no wide-bodies... This is no legacy airline.

201% Correct. Hang in there FJ. I'll put in a LoR for ya.....

Baja.

ForeverJunior
03-19-2018, 12:18 PM
201% Correct. Hang in there FJ. I'll put in a LoR for ya.....

Baja.

Thanks Baja, but I'm too old to go anywhere and start over.

FogHorn
03-19-2018, 12:45 PM
Thanks Baja, but I'm too old to go anywhere and start over.


But age 67 is just around the corner! *ducks*

Going2Baja
03-19-2018, 01:00 PM
Thanks Baja, but I'm too old to go anywhere and start over.

My FO last week was a 49 y/o new hire. Just got bid for SEA 75/76. 2nd year pay is $136. Think about it. :cool:

Baja.

Work2much
03-20-2018, 07:39 AM
My FO last week was a 49 y/o new hire. Just got bid for SEA 75/76. 2nd year pay is $136. Think about it. :cool:

Baja.

Here's last week's class drop at Delta:
2 nyc er
4 nyc 73n
5 slc 73n
8 atl 717
10 atl m88

This weeks class drop:
ATL
4 x ER
3 x 73N
11 x M88
5 x 717

LAX
3 x 73N

NYC
10 x 320
4 x 717


There's a seat lock on the aircraft you are awarded for 2 years. If you get an MD88, Airbus or 717 you're not going to get seattle for a few years.

The last new hired to get SEA was the first week of February and there were only 2 openings.

palooza
03-20-2018, 09:13 AM
Here's last week's class drop at Delta:
2 nyc er
4 nyc 73n
5 slc 73n
8 atl 717
10 atl m88

This weeks class drop:
ATL
4 x ER
3 x 73N
11 x M88
5 x 717

LAX
3 x 73N

NYC
10 x 320
4 x 717


There's a seat lock on the aircraft you are awarded for 2 years. If you get an MD88, Airbus or 717 you're not going to get seattle for a few years.

The last new hired to get SEA was the first week of February and there were only 2 openings.

Only a 1-yr seat lock if the only way to get to your desired base (SEA) is to switch airplanes (new hires only).

Generally speaking itís about 2-12 months to get to Seattle depending on published bids and what airplane you got in the drop.

DelTacoBowl
03-20-2018, 11:18 AM
Which airframe gets you there quickest? 73?

Only a 1-yr seat lock if the only way to get to your desired base (SEA) is to switch airplanes (new hires only).

Generally speaking itís about 2-12 months to get to Seattle depending on published bids and what airplane you got in the drop.

FogHorn
03-20-2018, 03:00 PM
This thread has taken an interesting turn.

full of luv
03-20-2018, 06:59 PM
Which airframe gets you there quickest? 73?

Yes, most junior in Seattle is the 737, but barely, the 7ER is very close and a much bigger category size wise at this time. So either should get you to SEA in short order if not offered in initial.

Baradium
03-21-2018, 02:17 PM
Yes, most junior in Seattle is the 737, but barely, the 7ER is very close and a much bigger category size wise at this time. So either should get you to SEA in short order if not offered in initial.

There have been 7ER in class drops for SEA so they are basically the same.

450knotOffice
03-21-2018, 04:09 PM
This thread has taken an interesting turn.

Haha!! Right?!

Delta Class drops and answering Delta questions in an Alaska forum.:D

busbusbaby
03-21-2018, 05:53 PM
Haha!! Right?!

Delta Class drops and answering Delta questions in an Alaska forum.:D

Writing on the wall for the next merger 🤪

ForeverJunior
03-21-2018, 07:00 PM
Writing on the wall for the next merger 🤪

One can only hope.

OCCP
03-21-2018, 07:47 PM
At this point Iím hoping for merger with any one of the top 4. We need some direction, and we need it bad.

airb320
03-22-2018, 08:41 AM
Merger, sooner rather than later... the incompetence here is unreal😟

Thermthomas1984
03-27-2018, 05:21 AM
I have a question, and please forgive my ignorance but I am curious how the pathway program with Horizon actually works. I am a USAF reserve pilot and have about 800 military time and 900 total time. My goal is to fly for Alaska and I am looking at the pathway program with Horizon. I am in the military so I know it canít be as good as the recruitment page makes it out to be, I am jus trying to figure out how exactly the program works and how long it would take. Is it a flow program or just a guaranteed interview? How long is Horizon taking to upgrade people? And can I still apply directly to Alaska when I hit the military mins (not that the mins would get me hired)? Any info would be great!

OCCP
03-27-2018, 05:32 AM
Your goal is to work for a bottom barrel major that lost the ability to turn a profit and gives some line holders only 10 days off? Man, you need to set higher goals.

FogHorn
03-27-2018, 08:59 AM
Your goal is to work for a bottom barrel major that lost the ability to turn a profit and gives some line holders only 10 days off? Man, you need to set higher goals.

Oh look, another positive and constructive post from OCCP.

Thermthomas1984
03-27-2018, 10:25 AM
Your goal is to work for a bottom barrel major that lost the ability to turn a profit and gives some line holders only 10 days off? Man, you need to set higher goals.

You know, I read my post over and over and I canít for the life of me find the part where I was requesting your opinion or your approval of my life goals.

flywest
03-27-2018, 12:41 PM
Your goal is to work for a bottom barrel major that lost the ability to turn a profit and gives some line holders only 10 days off? Man, you need to set higher goals.

To quote the great Ray Charles: Hit the road jack and don't ya come back no more, no more. One of the big 4 are waiting..... or maybe they don't want your negative a--. Good luck. OCCP

Going2Baja
03-27-2018, 01:45 PM
One can only hope.


You guys would Roll in on top of me...HAHAHA.

Baja.

ForeverJunior
03-27-2018, 01:51 PM
You guys would Roll in on top of me...HAHAHA.

Baja.

Maybe, maybe not...

It's probably not going to happen anyway. Some of us will just be stuck here in Angle Lake's s---show until we retire.

Flitestar
03-27-2018, 02:38 PM
You know, I read my post over and over and I canít for the life of me find the part where I was requesting your opinion or your approval of my life goals.

OCCP
(Filler)

GUFN
03-27-2018, 04:11 PM
I have a question, and please forgive my ignorance but I am curious how the pathway program with Horizon actually works. I am a USAF reserve pilot and have about 800 military time and 900 total time. My goal is to fly for Alaska and I am looking at the pathway program with Horizon. I am in the military so I know it canít be as good as the recruitment page makes it out to be, I am jus trying to figure out how exactly the program works and how long it would take. Is it a flow program or just a guaranteed interview? How long is Horizon taking to upgrade people? And can I still apply directly to Alaska when I hit the military mins (not that the mins would get me hired)? Any info would be great!

There is a dialogue on the Alaska Pathway program going on the Horizon APC channel. It is seniority based, wait for your number to come up.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2558095-post12.html

rickair7777
03-27-2018, 07:00 PM
There is a dialogue on the Alaska Pathway program going on the Horizon APC channel. It is seniority based, wait for your number to come up.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2558095-post12.html

Anybody know if it's comparable in timeline to the AA flow program?

flysnoopy76
03-27-2018, 07:17 PM
Anybody know if it's comparable in timeline to the AA flow program?

I think AA is faster, they are hiring, Alaska isnít (beyond what is currently in the pool for the Boeing).

OCCP
03-27-2018, 08:07 PM
You know, I read my post over and over and I canít for the life of me find the part where I was requesting your opinion or your approval of my life goals.


I was just trying to help an inexperienced aviator avoid making a mistake!

OCCP
03-27-2018, 08:09 PM
To quote the great Ray Charles: Hit the road jack and don't ya come back no more, no more. One of the big 4 are waiting..... or maybe they don't want your negative a--. Good luck. OCCP

Iíll tell you what. Iíll apply for a job at the big 4 if your wet dream of DOH integration comes true! Deal?

Pogey Bait
03-28-2018, 05:10 AM
I have a question, and please forgive my ignorance but I am curious how the pathway program with Horizon actually works. I am a USAF reserve pilot and have about 800 military time and 900 total time. My goal is to fly for Alaska and I am looking at the pathway program with Horizon. I am in the military so I know it canít be as good as the recruitment page makes it out to be, I am jus trying to figure out how exactly the program works and how long it would take. Is it a flow program or just a guaranteed interview? How long is Horizon taking to upgrade people? And can I still apply directly to Alaska when I hit the military mins (not that the mins would get me hired)? Any info would be great!

Dear Dude,

The reason these ďflowĒ programs are set up is to maintain a pipeline of cheap labor supplied by a very long stick, and shiny carrot. If I was a betting man I would go to anywhere besides Horizon if you truly want to end up at Alaska. Right now the economy is on the up tick and when the party stops you are going to get caught with your pants down and stuck at Horizon. AAG will not been pulling from their cheap labor when this happens due to an economic situation or due to the dreaded ďpilot shortageĒ.

I would not sell your self short by only having Alaska in your sights. You gotta barf everywhere and see how it shakes out. If you truly want to be on the upper left half of the country, bedsides Alaska there is a new player in town call Delta Air Lines. Delta Air Lines appreciates their fellow airplane drivers and likes to pay them lots of money to do so. Delta Air Lines has the most diverse make up of sky bound people movers in the industry as well. However if you really got a hard on to fly a Boeing 737 in both the small version and the extended version for the rest of your days, then Alaska might be the place to be. Also offered at Alaska is subpar wages and a management team that likes you to know that you are ďnumber 5Ē. I donít know about your math but mine tells me 1 is better than 5.

Maybe you can tell through the lack of response to your questions that you are climbing up the wrong tree. Get some more hours at Skywest and the rest of your military hours are truly appreciated by any of the larger jet driver companies out there.

Good luck Dude!

Work2much
03-28-2018, 06:20 AM
Iíll tell you what. Iíll apply for a job at the big 4 if your wet dream of DOH integration comes true! Deal?

Are you saying you haven't applied to the big 4 yet? I'm so confused. You hate this place so much it's very obvious because you spew barf all over this place on a constant basis. If you aren't trying to leave then do us all a favor and apply today!

flywest
03-28-2018, 06:40 AM
Iíll tell you what. Iíll apply for a job at the big 4 if your wet dream of DOH integration comes true! Deal?

Well I guess DOH is what basically what the rest of the Virgin groups are
getting. What makes you any more special. In my opinion DOH is fair. We all started our seniority with DOH. Except Pilots at Virgin you have 2007 hires senior to 2006 hires? Good Luck. Arbitrator will figure it out I guess.

Thermthomas1984
03-28-2018, 07:27 AM
Dear Dude,

The reason these ďflowĒ programs are set up is to maintain a pipeline of cheap labor supplied by a very long stick, and shiny carrot. If I was a betting man I would go to anywhere besides Horizon if you truly want to end up at Alaska. Right now the economy is on the up tick and when the party stops you are going to get caught with your pants down and stuck at Horizon. AAG will not been pulling from their cheap labor when this happens due to an economic situation or due to the dreaded ďpilot shortageĒ.

I would not sell your self short by only having Alaska in your sights. You gotta barf everywhere and see how it shakes out. If you truly want to be on the upper left half of the country, bedsides Alaska there is a new player in town call Delta Air Lines. Delta Air Lines appreciates their fellow airplane drivers and likes to pay them lots of money to do so. Delta Air Lines has the most diverse make up of sky bound people movers in the industry as well. However if you really got a hard on to fly a Boeing 737 in both the small version and the extended version for the rest of your days, then Alaska might be the place to be. Also offered at Alaska is subpar wages and a management team that likes you to know that you are ďnumber 5Ē. I donít know about your math but mine tells me 1 is better than 5.

Maybe you can tell through the lack of response to your questions that you are climbing up the wrong tree. Get some more hours at Skywest and the rest of your military hours are truly appreciated by any of the larger jet driver companies out there.

Good luck Dude!

Thanks for the info! I have actually spent the last day pilfering info from guys in my unit that fly Delta and am hearing exactly what you are saying. I think Iím going to pass on the Horizon deal and try and get on at SkyWest and then cast a wide net at the majors. Again, thanks for the honest feedback.

Outdoors
03-28-2018, 09:23 AM
Dear Dude,

The reason these ďflowĒ programs are set up is to maintain a pipeline of cheap labor supplied by a very long stick, and shiny carrot. If I was a betting man I would go to anywhere besides Horizon if you truly want to end up at Alaska. Right now the economy is on the up tick and when the party stops you are going to get caught with your pants down and stuck at Horizon. AAG will not been pulling from their cheap labor when this happens due to an economic situation or due to the dreaded ďpilot shortageĒ.

I would not sell your self short by only having Alaska in your sights. You gotta barf everywhere and see how it shakes out. If you truly want to be on the upper left half of the country, bedsides Alaska there is a new player in town call Delta Air Lines. Delta Air Lines appreciates their fellow airplane drivers and likes to pay them lots of money to do so. Delta Air Lines has the most diverse make up of sky bound people movers in the industry as well. However if you really got a hard on to fly a Boeing 737 in both the small version and the extended version for the rest of your days, then Alaska might be the place to be. Also offered at Alaska is subpar wages and a management team that likes you to know that you are ďnumber 5Ē. I donít know about your math but mine tells me 1 is better than 5.

Maybe you can tell through the lack of response to your questions that you are climbing up the wrong tree. Get some more hours at Skywest and the rest of your military hours are truly appreciated by any of the larger jet driver companies out there.

Good luck Dude!

This is correct, donít forget about the non-existent schedule flexibility that is offered via adequate reserve coverage!

KnockKnock
03-28-2018, 10:53 AM
I know why many of the old timers here at AS complain, Kasher, unnecessary furloughs, reneged bonusí etc. Iím genuinely curious why guys like OCCP and a few others are so upset? If your QOL has stayed the same under our current management with your PBS as was stated in the PBS thread, whatís the complaint? If VX had no contract and no scope for the 10 years prior to the acquisition, itís just status quo for you right? If your fleet and all future fleet plans at VX weíre narrow bodies, canít be too upset that itís still narrow bodies now right? If the company fails to turn a profit during a merger and VX failed to turn profits for most of itís existence, while in favorable environments, same same right? If your retirement went up by 3% and your pay by 30%+ but most things are exactly as they were before the acquisition, whatís the major complaint? Weíre your career expectations to get hired on at a start up in hopes the #1 carrier at any given time would acquire the company? Iím genuinely curious because it just seems like wounded pride to me.

OCCP
03-28-2018, 10:53 AM
Are you saying you haven't applied to the big 4 yet? I'm so confused. You hate this place so much it's very obvious because you spew barf all over this place on a constant basis. If you aren't trying to leave then do us all a favor and apply today!



Iím just being real. You must be satisfied with this garbage contract, junk schedules, and lack of direction.

I want this place to succeed because all us depend on it. I just donít see a light at the end of the tunnel

Packrat
03-28-2018, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the info! I have actually spent the last day pilfering info from guys in my unit that fly Delta and am hearing exactly what you are saying. I think Iím going to pass on the Horizon deal and try and get on at SkyWest and then cast a wide net at the majors. Again, thanks for the honest feedback.

They're right. The "Pathways program" appears to be an answer to the flow programs at other regionals. Historically though, AS is not inclined to rob QX of pilots as long as there are other candidates out there.

As said before, you're best bet would be SkyWest if you really want to work for AS.

P.S. There's a lot of disappointment on this site due to the last contract at AS. Granted some junior guys are jumping ship. Your goals are the only thing that's important and if AS is your "dream job" then best of luck making your dream come true.

Ispeakjive
03-28-2018, 09:34 PM
Your goal is to work for a bottom barrel major that lost the ability to turn a profit and gives some line holders only 10 days off? Man, you need to set higher goals.

You know, I read my post over and over and I canít for the life of me find the part where I was requesting your opinion or your approval of my life goals.

Am I the only one enjoying the irony here...?

full of luv
03-29-2018, 03:35 AM
Am I the only one enjoying the irony here...?

Ok, it's early, but I don't see any "irony" in those posts, but I'm probably missing something obvious.....

One guy asks to join Alaska because that's his life's goal and the other poster said your life's goal is misguided and you should reconsider....

AltoCumulus
03-30-2018, 03:10 AM
Ok, it's early, but I don't see any "irony" in those posts, but I'm probably missing something obvious.....

One guy asks to join Alaska because that's his life's goal and the other poster said your life's goal is misguided and you should reconsider....

Perhaps because they are posting on an Internet forum (forum - a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.) and then complaining when someone gives them an opinion

Ronin47
04-04-2018, 10:47 AM
What ever happened to the 2ND round of interviews that never happened from this past January Meet and Greet? One bad quarter and No hiring now? Anyone have the info?

Reactivity
04-04-2018, 12:49 PM
What ever happened to the 2ND round of interviews that never happened from this past January Meet and Greet? One bad quarter and No hiring now? Anyone have the info?

You seem to have a pretty good understanding of the situation.

Ronin47
04-06-2018, 11:45 AM
You seem to have a pretty good understanding of the situation.

LOL! That's what I thought. Thanks in advance.

Outdoors
05-05-2018, 07:20 PM
What ever happened to the 2ND round of interviews that never happened from this past January Meet and Greet? One bad quarter and No hiring now? Anyone have the info?

No hiring until late 2018/early 2019 on both sides per cp. I think that means the ďunprecedented hiringĒ is over.

Reactivity
05-05-2018, 07:22 PM
No hiring until late 2018/early 2019 on both sides per cp. I think that means the ďunprecedented hiringĒ is over.

The email I received from Alaska recruiting about two weeks ago said classes are filled through summer and they expect to resume interviews in the fall.

ShyGuy
05-05-2018, 07:54 PM
That may have been 2 weeks ago. The CP update is dated today May 5th and what the guy said above is true. No more newhire classes until late 2018/early 2019.

Ispeakjive
05-05-2018, 08:21 PM
That may have been 2 weeks ago. The CP update is dated today May 5th and what the guy said above is true. No more newhire classes until late 2018/early 2019.

It also said... "The reduction in growth is helping reduce costs to provide a stronger balance sheet that will fund future growth and hopefully more airplane orders in the not so distant future". I'm guessing that really means it'll make us a juicier target for another buyout.

How does a company shrink their way to success?

Ala5ka
05-05-2018, 08:53 PM
Lets hope thats what it meansIt also said... "The reduction in growth is helping reduce costs to provide a stronger balance sheet that will fund future growth and hopefully more airplane orders in the not so distant future". I'm guessing that really means it'll make us a juicier target for another buyout.

How does a company shrink their way to success?

ShyGuy
05-05-2018, 08:58 PM
Looks like merger pains. 2018 and 19 growth numbers have been drastically cut down from what they were suppose to be previously. This isn't good news for anyone at the bottom of the list. Or in the middle.


And of course there was a 1st quarter dividend for share holders. :rolleyes:

OCCP
05-05-2018, 09:26 PM
A buyout is the only way to save this craphole of a company.

Mea25000
05-05-2018, 09:41 PM
Mea25000 , 03-10-2018 01:40 AM
7 years I imagine is correct for Alaska going forward. There are 4 year upgrades right now but that is because there was a three year gap in hiring. So those hired at the beginning of the last hiring boom benefited from this situation. The new numbers that I have seen have very little growth over the next 24 months which will slow hiring and upgrades... it looks like hiring for attrition, plus 50 to 100 a year for growth

This is not big news. I posted this a couple months ago. Big news is coming though. NDA police are watching me though so I better behave. Everyone is going to be fine RELAX. Man though... some of these posts in the last week. Grow up guys, yeah we can fight like brothers but after next week itís over... grow up move on and we really are a family now. Letís not be that dysfunctional of a family. Itís almost summer everyone, I live in the PNW and that means time to get out and enjoy.

Yetifan
05-06-2018, 01:44 PM
Mea25000 , 03-10-2018 01:40 AM
7 years I imagine is correct for Alaska going forward. There are 4 year upgrades right now but that is because there was a three year gap in hiring. So those hired at the beginning of the last hiring boom benefited from this situation. The new numbers that I have seen have very little growth over the next 24 months which will slow hiring and upgrades... it looks like hiring for attrition, plus 50 to 100 a year for growth

This is not big news. I posted this a couple months ago. Big news is coming though. NDA police are watching me though so I better behave. Everyone is going to be fine RELAX. Man though... some of these posts in the last week. Grow up guys, yeah we can fight like brothers but after next week itís over... grow up move on and we really are a family now. Letís not be that dysfunctional of a family. Itís almost summer everyone, I live in the PNW and that means time to get out and enjoy.

Care to elaborate on the big news a little?

Jetlife
05-06-2018, 01:47 PM
Mea25000 , 03-10-2018 01:40 AM
7 years I imagine is correct for Alaska going forward. There are 4 year upgrades right now but that is because there was a three year gap in hiring. So those hired at the beginning of the last hiring boom benefited from this situation. The new numbers that I have seen have very little growth over the next 24 months which will slow hiring and upgrades... it looks like hiring for attrition, plus 50 to 100 a year for growth

This is not big news. I posted this a couple months ago. Big news is coming though. NDA police are watching me though so I better behave. Everyone is going to be fine RELAX. Man though... some of these posts in the last week. Grow up guys, yeah we can fight like brothers but after next week itís over... grow up move on and we really are a family now. Letís not be that dysfunctional of a family. Itís almost summer everyone, I live in the PNW and that means time to get out and enjoy.

Come on man you can post BIG NEWS IS COMING and leave us hanging like that... You are saying everyone will be fine, what do you mean?

ForeverJunior
05-06-2018, 01:59 PM
Come on man you can post BIG NEWS IS COMING and leave us hanging like that... You are saying everyone will be fine, what do you mean?

Management has been in talks with Boeing and Airbus. They are weighing their options between the 787 and A350. We're also looking at the C Series, which will be flown by Alaska Airlines pilots. AAG is going to dissolve QX and staple their pilots to the bottom of our list after the ISL. We're also going to get the C Series. SkyWest contract will be terminated.

And if you believe all of that, I have some ocean-front property to sell you in Phoenix.

Sorry, I just had to have some fun here. I'm a pathetic loser who doesn't have anything better to do with his time on a nice Sunday afternoon. :D

Jetlife
05-06-2018, 02:01 PM
Management has been in talks with Boeing and Airbus. They are weighing their options between the 787 and A350. We're also looking at the C Series, which will be flown by Alaska Airlines pilots. AAG is going to dissolve QX and staple their pilots to the bottom of our list after the ISL. We're also going to get the C Series. SkyWest contract will be terminated.

And if you believe all of that, I have some ocean-front property to sell you in Phoenix.

Sorry, I just had to have some fun here. I'm a pathetic loser who doesn't have anything better to do with his time on a nice Sunday afternoon. :D

Haha! Nice.

If the big news is that the training department will move to Phoenix to house both the Airbus and 737 sims, I have heard that is true.

ShyGuy
05-06-2018, 09:04 PM
Just 6 months ago we were suppposed to hire 400 for 2018, 120 on Bus and 280 Boeing side. Now we stop at just ~106 for the year? What really happened? Yes gas is above 70/barrel for the 1st time since 2014, but what else? You don’t stop hiring to save money for an aircraft order. That doesn’t really make any sense.

ForeverJunior
05-06-2018, 09:14 PM
Just 6 months ago we were suppposed to hire 400 for 2018, 120 on Bus and 280 Boeing side. Now we stop at just ~106 for the year? What really happened? Yes gas is above 70/barrel for the 1st time since 2014, but what else? You donít stop hiring to save money for an aircraft order. That doesnít really make any sense.

Or it's just typical Alaska Airlines BS. They always come up with HUGE hiring numbers for the next year and then they fizzle.

They tried to feed us some real horse manure in my new-hire class in 2006. We were all going to upgrade in 3 years. None of us believed it. Their numbers didn't make sense. They would have had to hire 30+ a month. They could barely handle 12 new-hires a month.

Just a load of BS from flight ops & Angle Lake as usual. Things are going to be great... until they aren't.

What a bunch of clowns.

Packrat
05-07-2018, 06:33 AM
2000 pilots by the year 2000. Its all you have to know.

Mudhen200
05-07-2018, 06:46 AM
Just 6 months ago we were suppposed to hire 400 for 2018, 120 on Bus and 280 Boeing side. Now we stop at just ~106 for the year? What really happened? Yes gas is above 70/barrel for the 1st time since 2014, but what else? You donít stop hiring to save money for an aircraft order. That doesnít really make any sense.

They looked at the bus side of the company and found a bunch more efficiency that could be had. Hiring stops because they simply do not need any more pilots. They found that they could work the bus and it's pilots a lot more than had previously been done by VX. That's it.

All bus pilots will soon fly at least 1, many 2, and some even 3 days more per month. All bus pilots will fly a 75 hr min month. Most will work themselves well into the 90's. This alone fixes all their staffing problems for the rest of the year.

Next year the pig will be through the python. They will start to plan for a little more than 4% growth. Then retirements and attrition start to become a factor and - poof - the school house open up.

echelon
05-07-2018, 08:33 AM
Next year the pig will be through the python.

Does that mean that the company is about to sit down and take a huge ****?

Ispeakjive
05-07-2018, 10:46 AM
They looked at the bus side of the company and found a bunch more efficiency that could be had. Hiring stops because they simply do not need any more pilots. They found that they could work the bus and it's pilots a lot more than had previously been done by VX. That's it.

All bus pilots will soon fly at least 1, many 2, and some even 3 days more per month. All bus pilots will fly a 75 hr min month. Most will work themselves well into the 90's. This alone fixes all their staffing problems for the rest of the year.

Next year the pig will be through the python. They will start to plan for a little more than 4% growth. Then retirements and attrition start to become a factor and - poof - the school house open up.

Mudhen is trying to be subtle, but he sounds like a VX hater.

Packrat
05-07-2018, 11:29 AM
Mudhen is trying to be subtle, but he sounds like a VX hater.

I don't think so. AS has routinely publicized "growth". But the "growth" is in exchanging 737-200s for -400s. Or exchanging -700s for -900s. That's certainly growth in seat miles but doesn't do a thing for the growth of pilot numbers, Captain seats or better flying lines.

By increasing VX frequency on the West Coast they can crow about "growth" and not need additional pilots.

Again, AS pilots have seen this movie before while VXers are just getting their first showing.

2loud
05-07-2018, 11:34 AM
Mudhen is trying to be subtle, but he sounds like a VX hater.

There's a prime example of what an undesirable would say. No one here is a VX hater. Get over your inferiority complex bubba. Welcome to scheduling according to the optimizer.

Kitchen25
05-07-2018, 11:38 AM
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/alaska-swaps-737-max-8-orders-for-larger-max-9-448357/

I thought this was old news but hereís another example of growth without more pilots.

AltoCumulus
05-07-2018, 12:53 PM
Yep, swapping litttle airplanes for big airplanes. That is how we have been able to more than double ASMís since I got here while only increasing airframes by about 20%. (Boeing side).

800ís for 200ís, 800ís for MDís, 800 & 900s for 400s, MAX9s for 320/319s...and the beat goes on.

One thing I have found with ops management is that they will try to paint as rosy a picture as possible. I would bet that now that they are saying new hire class maybe in DEC/JAN...what they really mean is DEC/JAN at the EARLIEST. DEC/JAN is 6 months out which seems to be an ďevent horizonĒ here. If it were me I definitely would not be waiting around because I think this could easily slip by several months and their would be little warning.

Ispeakjive
05-07-2018, 12:53 PM
There's a prime example of what an undesirable would say. No one here is a VX hater. Get over your inferiority complex bubba. Welcome to scheduling according to the optimizer.

Then there is you who is not so subtle. You say: "No one here dislikes you," while doling out an insult. Pick a lane dumb a$$.

Reggie Dunlop
05-07-2018, 04:10 PM
All bus pilots will soon fly at least 1, many 2, and some even 3 days more per month. All bus pilots will fly a 75 hr min month. Most will work themselves well into the 90's. This alone fixes all their staffing problems for the rest of the year.



This must be the windfall for the Bus guys that weird little guy who disguises his identity by typing "y'all" every sixth word and a couple of his acolytes or alter egos keep talking about.

Fixing AS by flying more for the same money and less days off.

I need to go back to Momentum to get some more medicine.

All Bizniz
05-07-2018, 04:47 PM
This must be the windfall for the Bus guys that weird little guy who disguises his identity by typing "y'all" every sixth word and a couple of his acolytes or alter egos keep talking about.

Fixing AS by flying more for the same money and less days off.

I need to go back to Momentum to get some more medicine.

Hahaha.. That's hilarious....... For some reason Napoleon Bonaparte came to mind..

I think "that weird little guy" is an outlier at AS....... or a troll....

I've had the pleasure of chatting with a few AS pilots and they all seem pretty cool. No pompous airs about them...

Reggie Dunlop
05-07-2018, 06:10 PM
Hahaha.. That's hilarious....... For some reason Napoleon Bonaparte came to mind..

I think "that weird little guy" is an outlier at AS....... or a troll....

I've had the pleasure of chatting with a few AS pilots and they all seem pretty cool. No pompous airs about them...

I am a west coast bubba with family in the SEA and a lot of friends at the Eskimo and I have yet to meet anyone like a couple of the D-Canoes on this ridiculous thread. Outliers and trolls for sure. Not worth a moment of time to pay them any mind. Just background noise.

Mudhen200
05-08-2018, 07:58 AM
Mudhen is trying to be subtle, but he sounds like a VX hater.

I donít hate anyone and I donít do subtle.

What I wrote is simply my opinion based on my experiences in AAG.
I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Efficiency is all B&B care about. What is efficient for them is not in a pilotís best interest. We must work 75 hrs a month. I hate it but those are the rules. We are always understaffed which is efficient for them but means very little trading and virtually no drops. All of it sucks but thatís reality.

Meanwhile, the average native AK pilots flys over 90 hrs credit a month, while bitcchin about it. We do it to ourselves.

Line bidding and Alaska crew scheduling is going to be very difficult on the Bus side of the house. I feel for you. Your QOL is going to go way down. I wish it wasnít so. I expect an increase in attrition on the Bus side as men find other airlines that offer a better life.

Iím to long in the tooth to start over. Iíve been beat by them for so many years that it doesnít even hurt anymore. But make no mistake, I give them nothing and take from them everything. I am one of the most inefficient pilots they have.

Wynncore
05-08-2018, 08:34 AM
Any truth to a rumor about AS stopping hiring until 2019?

Virgalask330
05-08-2018, 08:37 AM
Any truth to a rumor about AS stopping hiring until 2019?

Yeah C.P confirmed it in company email.

Ispeakjive
05-08-2018, 08:38 AM
I donít hate anyone and I donít do subtle.

What I wrote is simply my opinion based on my experiences in AAG.
I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Efficiency is all B&B care about. What is efficient for them is not in a pilotís best interest. We must work 75 hrs a month. I hate it but those are the rules. We are always understaffed which is efficient for them but means very little trading and virtually no drops. All of it sucks but thatís reality.

Meanwhile, the average native AK pilots flys over 90 hrs credit a month, while bitcchin about it. We do it to ourselves.

Line bidding and Alaska crew scheduling is going to be very difficult on the Bus side of the house. I feel for you. Your QOL is going to go way down. I wish it wasnít so. I expect an increase in attrition on the Bus side as men find other airlines that offer a better life.

Iím to long in the tooth to start over. Iíve been beat by them for so many years that it doesnít even hurt anymore. But make no mistake, I give them nothing and take from them everything. I am one of the most inefficient pilots they have.

Thanks for the input. I'm hoping that scheduling turns a corner in the not to distant future. It can be done.

All Bizniz
05-08-2018, 10:23 AM
Line bidding and Alaska crew scheduling is going to be very difficult on the Bus side of the house. I feel for you. Your QOL is going to go way down. I wish it wasnít so. I expect an increase in attrition on the Bus side as men find other airlines that offer a better life.

Iím to long in the tooth to start over. Iíve been beat by them for so many years that it doesnít even hurt anymore. But make no mistake, I give them nothing and take from them everything. I am one of the most inefficient pilots they have.
I appreciate your candor about the current situation at AS and the "shock and awe" that's in store for us on the Bus side. It's a sad reality that many have become numbed to the degradation of the Scheduling and QOL provisions here...

Given that most airlines - from Legacies, to Mainlines, to even Regionals - now tend to have pretty decent Scheduling provisions, can someone on the AS side give me some insights on how/why it has gotten so bad? What is it about AS that makes things slide backwards, when the industry as a whole is moving forwards?

As pilots, we are away from home, on average, at least half of the month and so along with pay rate, good QOL is as important if not more so, if we ever want to play any meaningful part in the lives of our families.

We must be united on that front with regards to the upcoming contract negotiations..

DBCooper1968
05-09-2018, 12:00 AM
Quote:

Given that most airlines - from Legacies, to Mainlines, to even Regionals - now tend to have pretty decent Scheduling provisions, can someone on the AS side give me some insights on how/why it has gotten so bad? What is it about AS that makes things slide backwards, when the industry as a whole is moving forwards?



I was pretty shocked by the lines when I first came here. The strange thing is, not many people I fly with (Captains who have been here much longer than I) complain about it. Most guys seem more into pay so accept less days off I suppose. Those that do go for QOL find ways to adjust their schedule during the step trading process, dropping, or advertising a trip or a portion of a trip for another guy who wants the $$ to pick up. It seems to work for most guys.

So to answer the question (my opinion/observation): I believe since historically at Alaska most pilots live in base (been here 5 years and only flew with a commuter once) the days off aren't as valuable as the pay to most since one who lives in base will benefit from more time at home than one who commutes.

This dynamic is changing within our group though. The younger pilots seem to value their time more and many of our recent hires commute. Also, because Seattle like SFO, is so expensive, I imagine we will see more commuters because you can't live in Seattle on a pilot's wage.

I hope we can really work together to demand some significant scheduling flexibility in 2020 and perhaps lose our jack ass line bidding and step trading nonsense. We don't have to do everything here like they did in the DC-6 back in 1963. Perhaps its high time to consider some changes.

OCCP
05-09-2018, 10:09 AM
That is so sad, but at least weíre a legacy and I should be glad Alaska saved me!

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 10:48 AM
Most here are failing to realize that the definition of a good schedule is fluid. My SKD, I think is good. I fly two days, time away from base is very low. I live in base, and this skd is way better then I have had anywhere else. My skd is way better then my DAL friend who lives in Sea based in Sea flying 5 day trips. I donít want PBS, I donít want 4 day trips. VX pilots need to realize we are the majority. I donít care what happens in SFO make those lines commuter friendly, but donít change my skd to benefit only your group.

All Bizniz
05-09-2018, 11:04 AM
Most here are failing to realize that the definition of a good schedule is fluid. My SKD, I think is good. I fly two days, time away from base is very low. I live in base, and this skd is way better then I have had anywhere else. My skd is way better then my DAL friend who lives in Sea based in Sea flying 5 day trips. I donít want PBS, I donít want 4 day trips. VX pilots need to realize we are the majority. I donít care what happens in SFO make those lines commuter friendly, but donít change my skd to benefit only your group.

I don't think it's lost on anyone that the definition of a good schedule is fluid. One size does not fit all.

I can't recall anyone advocating for the schedule to change to benefit only ONE group at the expense of another. Why can't it be a mix so that there is a little bit of everything to suit the different preferences? If you want to bid commutable lines, go for it.. If you like local flying, have at it...

With the computing power available today, the Scheduling Optimizer could produce these variations without breaking a sweat, while still covering all the company's flying..

As for PBS vs.Line Bidding, all things being equal (i.e having solid scheduling language in the contract), Line Bidding is to the Horse and Carriage what Pref Bid is to the Motor Car. That is a fact.....

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 12:20 PM
With all do respect sir, this may be to honest for most of you to handle.

The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome. Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not. I hope those 80% go to Dal, Amr, Uua, and are quickly widebody captains and you all have great careers. I hope our negotiations drag into 2023. I wish for very very few computable lines. I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation. So here is to Allbiz being a 787 CA very soon at Uua!

KnockKnock
05-09-2018, 12:25 PM
Iím bidding in the low 70% at AS and have been getting 95% of what I want out of a schedule for at least the last year. I average 16 days off, crediting 80-85 hrs, start times when I want them and type of flying I prefer to do. All while easily avoiding the stuff I donít want, like all-nighters and S.E. I also havenít worked a single Christmas and only 1 Thanksgiving since Iíve been here. Iím able to spread my vacay out to get extra days off from April-August. While there is plenty of room for improvement to our section 25, it certainly hasnít been the Bataan death march some have painted it to be. Iíve worked under both systems and have seen the good and bad each has to offer. I have friends at most of the other major airlines, many with PBS. None of them seem to promote their PBS systems anywhere near the level ExVX guys do. They all say pretty much the same things I experienced while using it. Good for the senior folks while hanging the Jr. guys out to dry. You have to know the system inside and out so as not to screw yourself and you typically have to sacrifice one thing you might want in order to gain another. What is it about the VX system that makes, at least those on here, overwhelmingly in favor of PBS? Now that AAG has taken the reigns, many are complaining about QOL going down the toilet but youíre still using PBS. Youíre being optimized and losing days off. Now that youíre getting to sample what will become of PBS under a management that loves them some productivity, what makes you think it would be better if we adopted it system wide? Iíll look at any system but wouldnít vote in favor for something that would just lead me to the same optimized outcome while not gaining anything in return......Wasnít this a thread on hiring....Ha!

Ispeakjive
05-09-2018, 01:13 PM
With all do respect sir, this may be to honest for most of you to handle.

The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome. Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not. I hope those 80% go to Dal, Amr, Uua, and are quickly widebody captains and you all have great careers. I hope our negotiations drag into 2023. I wish for very very few computable lines. I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation. So here is to Allbiz being a 787 CA very soon at Uua!

The sour taste is your black heart. Your post count is climbing nicely, do you feel relevant yet?

echelon
05-09-2018, 01:15 PM
The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth

What did you expect them to ask for? To be stapled to the bottom? They're just doing their job by advocating on behalf of their dues paying constituency, just like AS's union is.

... that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome.

Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not.
Pick one, a&&h0le.

I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation.

But no thanks to you though, right? :rolleyes:

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 01:40 PM
Not trying to be relevant. Just trying to be honest. You hate the company I work for, you pretend unity, be honest you guys really only care about yourselves. I hope Ispeak is soon a DAL 777 CA, ECH a Amr 777 CA. You can call me an outlier, I can tell you, I have talked with many of my contemporaries on my side. Almost all feel the same way. Some might not voice it, but that does not make it anymore or less true. I wish you all the best, just not at Alaska. Most of you, judging by your posts would be happier elsewhere anyways.

All Bizniz
05-09-2018, 01:42 PM
With all do respect sir, this may be to honest for most of you to handle.

The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome. Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not. I hope those 80% go to Dal, Amr, Uua, and are quickly widebody captains and you all have great careers. I hope our negotiations drag into 2023. I wish for very very few computable lines. I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation. So here is to Allbiz being a 787 CA very soon at Uua!
Hahahaha
I'm a bit long in the tooth myself so I plan to make the best of it. When life gives you lemons...... :)

I totally understand why you feel how you do but it's a negotiating tactic that all sides use. Have a look at all the other SLI proposals by the competing MECs in previous mergers.. . Always diametrically opposed.

I just ask that you don't cut off your nose to spite your face tho... There's a reason why most airlines are/have transitioned to PBS.. The airlines get improved labor efficiency but it is great for pilots too (the caveat being solid scheduling language of course). Win - Win if you ask me... You like winning, right?

Ispeakjive
05-09-2018, 01:45 PM
Not trying to be relevant. Just trying to be honest. You hate the company I work for, you pretend unity, be honest you guys really only care about yourselves. I hope Ispeak is soon a DAL 777 CA, ECH a Amr 777 CA. You can call me an outlier, I can tell you, I have talked with many of my contemporaries on my side. Almost all feel the same way. Some might not voice it, but that does not make it anymore true. I wish you all the best, just not at Alaska. Most of you, judging by your posts would be happier elsewhere anyways.

You are correct, you are not relevant.

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 01:50 PM
You are correct, you are not relevant.

My sincere best sir

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 01:53 PM
You write something honest on this website and everyone freaks out, and calls you names. The beauty of this forum is we all really can be honest, we donít have to lie or pretend.

All Bizniz
05-09-2018, 02:30 PM
I’m bidding in the low 70% at AS and have been getting 95% of what I want out of a schedule for at least the last year. I average 16 days off, crediting 80-85 hrs, start times when I want them and type of flying I prefer to do. All while easily avoiding the stuff I don’t want, like all-nighters and S.E. I also haven’t worked a single Christmas and only 1 Thanksgiving since I’ve been here. I’m able to spread my vacay out to get extra days off from April-August. While there is plenty of room for improvement to our section 25, it certainly hasn’t been the Bataan death march some have painted it to be. I’ve worked under both systems and have seen the good and bad each has to offer. I have friends at most of the other major airlines, many with PBS. None of them seem to promote their PBS systems anywhere near the level ExVX guys do. They all say pretty much the same things I experienced while using it. Good for the senior folks while hanging the Jr. guys out to dry. You have to know the system inside and out so as not to screw yourself and you typically have to sacrifice one thing you might want in order to gain another. What is it about the VX system that makes, at least those on here, overwhelmingly in favor of PBS? Now that AAG has taken the reigns, many are complaining about QOL going down the toilet but you’re still using PBS. You’re being optimized and losing days off. Now that you’re getting to sample what will become of PBS under a management that loves them some productivity, what makes you think it would be better if we adopted it system wide? I’ll look at any system but wouldn’t vote in favor for something that would just lead me to the same optimized outcome while not gaining anything in return......Wasn’t this a thread on hiring....Ha!
Knock Knock, be honest.. We have seen AS bid package as a whole. The Lines are generally bad! Lol

There is a lot more flexibility in PBS. It's not unheard of for Very Junior guys to get 16-20 Days Off coupled with the EXACT range of Days Off they want for EACH week of the month in one shot.

One and Done!

Someone dictating my Trips AND my Days Off by building Lines for me is not my idea of having control over my schedule. Then I gotta spend the rest of the month begging, buying or borrowing to get it to my liking almost every month..

It's an archaic system....

KnockKnock
05-09-2018, 02:52 PM
Knock Knock, be honest.. We have seen AS bid package as a whole. The Lines are generally bad! Lol

There is a lot more flexibility in PBS. It's not unheard of for Very Junior guys to get 16-20 Days Off coupled with the EXACT range of Days Off they want for EACH week of the month in one shot.

One and Done!

Someone dictating my Trips AND my Days Off by building Lines for me is not my idea of having control over my schedule. Then I gotta spend the rest of the month begging, buying or borrowing to get it to my liking almost every month..

It's an archaic system....
What kind of credit are you looking at with 20 days off? Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to stay home all month and get paid for it but I need min 80 hrs, (kids n sh!t). That typically comes in the form of around 16 days off for me. I haven’t had to trade a trip in 6 months. Also, how does PBS see/affect your vacation? Are you able to drop flying? The way AS does vacation drops isn't ideal (thanks Kasher) but being able to split my vacation days up and shotgun them out has been a huge gain. I get vacation weeks all spring and summer long. Last question, have you noticed your QOL change/decline since AS took charge and if so, do you see that no matter the system, management will squeeze every drop out of you? So fancy updated version, meet old antiquated version, you’ve been optimized. Either way you gotta find the loopholes and make it work for you. I contend that even if you want PBS, tell management hell no until the pot gets much, much, bigger.

WutFace
05-09-2018, 03:45 PM
With all do respect sir, this may be to honest for most of you to handle.

The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome. Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not. I hope those 80% go to Dal, Amr, Uua, and are quickly widebody captains and you all have great careers. I hope our negotiations drag into 2023. I wish for very very few computable lines. I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation. So here is to Allbiz being a 787 CA very soon at Uua!

Don't worry buddy. We'll all be shopping our resumes soon enough. Including you.

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 04:09 PM
With a net worth north of 7 mil, I assure you, I will not be participating in ďthe shoppingĒ. In another life we would all be friends, I am sure. The disparity in longevity is to great in this one though. With reguard to SLI, this ďdifferentĒ definitely doesnít work. You can have immediate seniority at any startup, you benefit from it significantly but you take tremendous risk with that move. You can never take that windfall and shove it down the throat of a legacy, it will never work. Even if you have think that legacy is a ďSuper RegionalĒ, in your words.

full of luv
05-09-2018, 04:14 PM
With all do respect sir, this may be to honest for most of you to handle.

The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome. Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not. I hope those 80% go to Dal, Amr, Uua, and are quickly widebody captains and you all have great careers. I hope our negotiations drag into 2023. I wish for very very few computable lines. I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation. So here is to Allbiz being a 787 CA very soon at Uua!

Again, this is why SLI union v union arbitrations should be done baseball style. OTZ is all b#tt hurt over VX's proposal and will be disgusted with anything that is less than what AK's MEC has proposed.

If it were baseball style, AK would have crafted a reasonable SLI (along with VX's MEC) and both sides would have been much closer to each other rather than torn apart in the process.

WutFace
05-09-2018, 04:20 PM
-------------

ELAC321
05-09-2018, 04:26 PM
In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome.



....


...

Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not.


Is this guy being serious? It's honestly hard to tell with the amount of irony in his post.

Jetlife
05-09-2018, 04:37 PM
Is this guy being serious? It's honestly hard to tell with the amount of irony in his post.

He went full retard

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 05:08 PM
I am curious as to what I have written which is hard to understand, or what part makes me a retard? I have been perfectly honest and transparent. I think if any of you are honest with yourselves you would have to admit you feel the same way. I know I canít think of one of my fellow Alaska pilots which have not voiced the exact same sentiments that I have written here. This is not radical thought or feelings by any stretch. The truth is, most people can not handle the truth.

Jetlife
05-09-2018, 05:14 PM
I am curious as to what I have written which is hard to understand, or what part makes me a retard? I have been perfectly honest and transparent. I think if any of you are honest with yourselves you would have to admit you feel the same way. I know I canít think of one of my fellow Alaska pilots which have not voiced the exact same sentiments that I have written here. This is not radical thought or feelings by any stretch. The truth is, most people can not handle the truth.

Honesty doesnít mean you are correct. It just means you believe the BS that you type.

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 05:35 PM
Honesty doesnít mean you are correct. It just means you believe the BS that you type.

I agree. Itís how I, and many Alaska pilots feel, itís how we perceive. I am sure through your glasses you see a totally different scene and almost the opposite color.

Jetlife
05-09-2018, 05:45 PM
I agree. Itís how I, and many Alaska pilots feel, itís how we perceive. I am sure through your glasses you see a totally different scene and almost the opposite color.

Nah we just don't drink the kool-aid.

All Bizniz
05-09-2018, 05:58 PM
What kind of credit are you looking at with 20 days off? Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to stay home all month and get paid for it but I need min 80 hrs, (kids n sh!t). That typically comes in the form of around 16 days off for me. I haven’t had to trade a trip in 6 months. Also, how does PBS see/affect your vacation? Are you able to drop flying? The way AS does vacation drops isn't ideal (thanks Kasher) but being able to split my vacation days up and shotgun them out has been a huge gain. I get vacation weeks all spring and summer long. Last question, have you noticed your QOL change/decline since AS took charge and if so, do you see that no matter the system, management will squeeze every drop out of you? So fancy updated version, meet old antiquated version, you’ve been optimized. Either way you gotta find the loopholes and make it work for you. I contend that even if you want PBS, tell management hell no until the pot gets much, much, bigger.

With 20 days OFF? 70 hours-ish.. But get this... On the other end of the spectrum...... I'll see your 80 hours and raise you 15.5 hrs (95.5 hrs) for your same 16 days off!! (that's my schedule for this month,May)

If you're doing it for the kids n sh!t, Pref Bid is the way to go! :)

That's the beauty of Pref Bid.. Whatever you desire, you can customize to your hearts content! On any given month I can bid for a stretch of days OFF that effectively is like.. you guessed it! VACATION!! I can do that 12 times a year! :)

Put a 8 or 10 days OFF stretch at the end of of one month together with another stretch of 8 or 10 days OFF at the beginning of the next month and you can get 16 to 20 Days OFF while still crediting high 80s in both months... I could do that 5 or 6 times a year.... And I still haven't even touched my real Vacation days....

Here's the take away.... Applied evenly to both, whether the Scheduling Rules are great or terrible, you will still have better overall flexibility and control of the schedule you will be awarded each month using Pref Bid as opposed to Line Bidding.

2loud
05-09-2018, 06:05 PM
I canít speak for the rest of exVX pilot group but most of yíall on this forum get butt hurt too easily. Instead of engaging in constructive discussion, VXers on here are quick to turn the tables and resort to name calling, a true sign of weakness and lack of intellect. Take for example OTZeagleís comments which results in juvenile name calling by exVXers while ganging up on him/her. I donít know this guy and obviously heís very vocal on here but at least he/she has the balls to state his/her mind.

2loud
05-09-2018, 06:13 PM
With 20 days OFF? 70 hours-ish.. But get this... On the other end of the spectrum...... I'll see your 80 hours and raise you 15.5 hrs (95.5 hrs) for your same 16 days off!! (that's my schedule for this month,May)

If you're doing it for the kids n sh!t, Pref Bid is the way to go! :)

That's the beauty of Pref Bid.. Whatever you desire, you can customize to your hearts content! On any given month I can bid for a stretch of days OFF that effectively is like.. you guessed it! VACATION!! I can do that 12 times a year! :)

Put a 8 or 10 days OFF stretch at the end of of one month together with another stretch of 8 or 10 days OFF at the beginning of the next month and you can get 16 to 20 Days OFF while still crediting high 80s in both months... And you still haven't even touched your real Vacation days....

Here's the take away.... Applied evenly to both, whether the Scheduling Rules are great or terrible, you will still have better overall flexibility and control of the schedule you will be awarded each month using Pref Bid as opposed to Line Bidding.
This horse has been beaten, butchered, processed and served to pets all throughout the world!
Hey bubba, until our pairings are fixed and scheduling language is gutted no PBS program will give you what yíall had under Branson. Welcome to 12-15 days off with mostly non commutable pairings, especially with more west coast flying on the bus side. Tough pill to swallow but this is reality for now and whatís to come. PBS is 💀.

All Bizniz
05-09-2018, 06:27 PM
This horse has been beaten, butchered, processed and served to pets all throughout the world!
Hey bubba, until our pairings are fixed and scheduling language is gutted no PBS program will give you what yíall had under Branson. Welcome to 12-15 days off with mostly non commutable pairings, especially with more west coast flying on the bus side. Tough pill to swallow but this is reality for now and whatís to come. PBS is 💀.

I think if you took the time to read my posts on that issue, you'd realize that you're preaching to the choir. Lol

The airlines get improved labor efficiency but it is great for pilots too (the caveat being solid scheduling language of course). Win - Win if you ask me... You like winning, right?

NotTellin
05-09-2018, 06:49 PM
With all do respect sir, this may be to honest for most of you to handle.

The SLI reach by the VX side has put such a sour taste in my mouth that I will vote for nothing that any of you want. In fact, if I knew terrible schedules would cause 80 percent of you to leave and seek employment elsewhere, I would gladly do all I could to secure this outcome. Do I wish any of you ill, absolutely not. I hope those 80% go to Dal, Amr, Uua, and are quickly widebody captains and you all have great careers. I hope our negotiations drag into 2023. I wish for very very few computable lines. I donít think you even begin to understand the divide that is quickly growing at this company. It will get very very bad in my estimation. So here is to Allbiz being a 787 CA very soon at Uua!

Why do you guys feed this troll that created his account less than 15 days ago with the specific plan to create decent amongst the ALA5KA pilot group. If you ignore him he has no power. Don't engage the trolls. Come on we are better than this.

OTZeagle1
05-09-2018, 07:08 PM
Why do you guys feed this troll that created his account less than 15 days ago with the specific plan to create decent amongst the ALA5KA pilot group. If you ignore him he has no power. Don't engage the trolls. Come on we are better than this.

I have been at Alaska more then 15 years. I write how I honestly feel, how almost ever Alaska pilot I know feels right now and that makes me a **** or a troll. If I wrote realative seniority or bust, you would all say how brilliant and handsome I am. Go figure, this is really hard to figure out.

Ispeakjive
05-09-2018, 08:00 PM
I canít speak for the rest of exVX pilot group but most of yíall on this forum get butt hurt too easily. Instead of engaging in constructive discussion, VXers on here are quick to turn the tables and resort to name calling, a true sign of weakness and lack of intellect. Take for example OTZeagleís comments which results in juvenile name calling by exVXers while ganging up on him/her. I donít know this guy and obviously heís very vocal on here but at least he/she has the balls to state his/her mind.

Its not butt hurt. Its that you are smiling with a colloquially kind tone "y'all" while telling us we are f**cked, calling us weak-minded and undesirables. You are full of sh*t and you like to stir things up where its not needed. "I'd swingline y'all", then "why u mad, bro?" F*ck you and eagle both.

Most VX'ers have accepted the fate of this brand and the merger and we'd like to think that it is all of us pilots against management, and not against each-other. Yet you "weak-minded undesirables" prove your merit with your un-needed/intentionally adversarial tone.

Klsytakesit
05-09-2018, 08:01 PM
I have been at Alaska more then 15 years. I write how I honestly feel, how almost ever Alaska pilot I know feels right now and that makes me a **** or a troll. If I wrote realative seniority or bust, you would all say how brilliant and handsome I am. Go figure, this is really hard to figure out.
You dont begin to represent how Alaska Pilots feel.....You championed the cause in the JCBA....Like all your kind...And after we got our tails handed to us you turn around and act like Alaska is on par with the major legacy airlines.....cant have it both ways

Caveman
05-09-2018, 09:00 PM
Yeah C.P confirmed it in company email.Hopeless attempt to redirect thread to thread topic title :)

Is this for real? No hiring until 2019?

2loud
05-09-2018, 09:10 PM
Its not butt hurt. Its that you are smiling with a colloquially kind tone "y'all" while telling us we are f**cked, calling us weak-minded and undesirables. You are full of sh*t and you like to stir things up where its not needed. "I'd swingline y'all", then "why u mad, bro?" F*ck you and eagle both.

Most VX'ers have accepted the fate of this brand and the merger and we'd like to think that it is all of us pilots against management, and not against each-other. Yet you "weak-minded undesirables" prove your merit with your un-needed/intentionally adversarial tone.
Butt hurt indeed. I canít help how you feel with what appears to be a myriad of personal complexes. Just because you feel offended because youíre not getting fed what you want to hear does not make me adversarial.
Letís be objective. Most of yíall fit into one of these categories: No college, second career ďlet me just fly a jetĒ hobbyist, canít get hired at the big three/SWA/FedEx or UPS for one reason or another, lack qualifications, too many skeletons, was madly in love VX, or just plain lazy. VX was a dead end stepping stone. The writing was on the wall. No one left Alaskan voluntarily to work at VX but some of yíall came here. True, Alaskan is a mega regional but definitely in a different and bigger league than where VX ever was. You are offended by Swingline? Would you be happier on a street corner? Iím not at all happy with our SLI proposal as it is a overly generous proposal for yíall. VXís proposal is way overreaching. I suppose everyone has to look out for number one.
Remember, Iím not the one here telling others to f-off. Set your PMS emotions aside and make your case or remain an undesirable.

Ispeakjive
05-09-2018, 11:56 PM
Butt hurt indeed. I canít help how you feel with what appears to be a myriad of personal complexes. Just because you feel offended because youíre not getting fed what you want to hear does not make me adversarial.
Letís be objective. Most of yíall fit into one of these categories: No college, second career ďlet me just fly a jetĒ hobbyist, canít get hired at the big three/SWA/FedEx or UPS for one reason or another, lack qualifications, too many skeletons, was madly in love VX, or just plain lazy. VX was a dead end stepping stone. The writing was on the wall. No one left Alaskan voluntarily to work at VX but some of yíall came here. True, Alaskan is a mega regional but definitely in a different and bigger league than where VX ever was. You are offended by Swingline? Would you be happier on a street corner? Iím not at all happy with our SLI proposal as it is a overly generous proposal for yíall. VXís proposal is way overreaching. I suppose everyone has to look out for number one.
Remember, Iím not the one here telling others to f-off. Set your PMS emotions aside and make your case or remain an undesirable.

That's 3 "y'alls" in one response. Nice work. My objection to you and your circle jerk eagle buddy is that the tone from most people has been:
1) Neither pilot group orchestrated the deal. Let's work together.
2) Neither pilot group undermined the other. Let's work together.
3) Management sucks. Let's work together.

See the theme? Now look back at the history of your posts. Your tone is divisive. It's not an occasional post from you. Divisiveness is the over-arching theme/intent behind all you write. So, yeah f*ck off.

Packrat
05-10-2018, 07:45 AM
No one left Alaskan voluntarily to work at VX but some of yíall came here. .

Actually, that's not true. I know of one who left. Ex-Skywest. Didn't care for the Union. Was unhappy with the length of the projected upgrade. Then, when an AS Captain started hitting on his AS F/A wife, he pulled chocks and went to VX for the quick upgrade.

I heard he ended up as a Check Airman over there as well. Looks like he's right back where he started from only WAY more senior after the SLI than he would have been if the VX plan is adopted.

Mea25000
05-10-2018, 07:53 AM
Hopeless attempt to redirect thread to thread topic title :)

Is this for real? No hiring until 2019?

This is all true unless a large group retires or a bunch of FOís leave.

2019 hiring 100-150
2020 hiring 340ish

Swingline78
05-10-2018, 08:46 AM
I have been at Alaska more then 15 years. I write how I honestly feel, how almost ever Alaska pilot I know feels right now and that makes me a **** or a troll. If I wrote realative seniority or bust, you would all say how brilliant and handsome I am. Go figure, this is really hard to figure out.

I'm not an Alaska guy, but my friend sent me here to read this guys posts.
This dude is a Russian troll. Read his posts out loud with a Russian accent and laugh your face off.

Jetlife
05-10-2018, 08:53 AM
No one left Alaskan voluntarily to work at VX but some of yíall came here.

That's cute. How many DAL/AAL/UAL/UPS/FDX/SWA pilots left to go to AS? Stay in your lane.

KnockKnock
05-10-2018, 09:11 AM
With 20 days OFF? 70 hours-ish.. But get this... On the other end of the spectrum...... I'll see your 80 hours and raise you 15.5 hrs (95.5 hrs) for your same 16 days off!! (that's my schedule for this month,May)

If you're doing it for the kids n sh!t, Pref Bid is the way to go! :)

That's the beauty of Pref Bid.. Whatever you desire, you can customize to your hearts content! On any given month I can bid for a stretch of days OFF that effectively is like.. you guessed it! VACATION!! I can do that 12 times a year! :)

Put a 8 or 10 days OFF stretch at the end of of one month together with another stretch of 8 or 10 days OFF at the beginning of the next month and you can get 16 to 20 Days OFF while still crediting high 80s in both months... I could do that 5 or 6 times a year.... And I still haven't even touched my real Vacation days....

Here's the take away.... Applied evenly to both, whether the Scheduling Rules are great or terrible, you will still have better overall flexibility and control of the schedule you will be awarded each month using Pref Bid as opposed to Line Bidding.
That may be the way it used to be but I want to know how it is now? Are you still getting the lines built the way you want them and everyone whoís complaining about QOL going down is just being dramatic or are you actually noticing a downward trend in pairing construction?

KnockKnock
05-10-2018, 09:21 AM
That's cute. How many DAL/AAL/UAL/UPS/FDX/SWA pilots left to go to AS? Stay in your lane.
Not to split hairs here but during the downturn, quite a few came from UAL, USA, TWA, AA, AWA etc. Some stayed, some went back. Probably the same scenario at VX. I even know a few guys that have turned down class dates at FDX and DAL to stay at AS. Not sure why but everyone has their own life goals.

OTZeagle1
05-10-2018, 09:46 AM
Ups guy a class or two ago. A SWA CA came here 10-13 years ago? Off hand I can think of 20-30 AMR and UAL pilots over the past decade. All for different reasons I am sure.

2loud
05-10-2018, 10:06 AM
That's 3 "y'alls" in one response. Nice work. My objection to you and your circle jerk eagle buddy is that the tone from most people has been:
1) Neither pilot group orchestrated the deal. Let's work together.
2) Neither pilot group undermined the other. Let's work together.
3) Management sucks. Let's work together.

See the theme? Now look back at the history of your posts. Your tone is divisive. It's not an occasional post from you. Divisiveness is the over-arching theme/intent behind all you write. So, yeah f*ck off.
Factual but not divisive. Weíre all entitled to our opinions but your views seem skewed due to your emotions blinding facts. Complexes, I get it.
You seem like quite the angry Napoleon so Iíll knock it off with you. I suggest an anger management course or two.

All Bizniz
05-10-2018, 10:24 AM
That may be the way it used to be but I want to know how it is now? Are you still getting the lines built the way you want them and everyone whoís complaining about QOL going down is just being dramatic or are you actually noticing a downward trend in pairing construction?
Yes, there is a bit of a downward trend in the quality of the trips in the sense that we're doing more multi-leg days up and down the west coast, but for the most part there is still a good mix of efficient commutable and non-commutable trips.

With that being said, going back to the flexibility point of Pref Bid, you can still mix and match even the "bad" pairings to get your Day's Off or Fly Thru cities or whatever other customization you wanna put in your bid...

Ispeakjive
05-10-2018, 10:43 AM
Factual but not divisive. Weíre all entitled to our opinions but your views seem skewed due to your emotions blinding facts. Complexes, I get it.
You seem like quite the angry Napoleon so Iíll knock it off with you. I suggest an anger management course or two.


Fact? So, you are doubling down on your previous posts that all VXer's are undesirable...? Thats your fact? You paint the entire VX group as undesirable with racist like efficiency.

People providing for their families with diverse backgrounds somehow hurts you. I hope people here go back through the history of your posts and see your systematic smear campaign.

We are entitled to opinions. But you are a Piece of ******. Thats not an opinion, its a Universal Fact. Don't try to divide my airline.

OTZeagle1
05-10-2018, 10:53 AM
I am sure most, probably 98% or more of the VX pilots are not only good pilots they are pretty cool people even though you all dog me. I just donít think it is fair if even one comes across senior to me, just my opinion.

Max Thrust
05-10-2018, 12:44 PM
I am sure most, probably 98% or more of the VX pilots are not only good pilots they are pretty cool people even though you all dog me. I just donít think it is fair if even one comes across senior to me, just my opinion.

Letís say youíre #640...2/3 of the way down the CA list. Youíre saying that it is fair that youíll be able to bid SFO the day after the SLI comes out and be the #1 CA there? Got it.

noodle
05-10-2018, 12:46 PM
That may be the way it used to be but I want to know how it is now? Are you still getting the lines built the way you want them and everyone whoís complaining about QOL going down is just being dramatic or are you actually noticing a downward trend in pairing construction?

I have a few more legs, but still have 79+ credit with 19 days off bidding a little worse than 75%. Not all commutable though. I know the horse is dead. It would be nice to work together to achieve some scheduling improvement. Hopefully this scheduling mou they are working on does that. I have only had one less than great interaction with a Boeing guy so far. I believe the jerks are very few and far between on both sides.

OTZeagle1
05-10-2018, 01:09 PM
Letís say youíre #640...2/3 of the way down the CA list. Youíre saying that it is fair that youíll be able to bid SFO the day after the SLI comes out and be the #1 CA there? Got it.

Yes, but I know I will never bid Sfo, Jfk, or Lax. My seniority will not affect a single Virgin pilot. I am confident less then 10 Alaska pilots will go to Sfo. No matter the outcome of this SLI very few Virgin pilots base position will be affected at all. With both proposals almost every Alaska pilot will feel significant pain.
I have nothing to win, you have nothing to lose.

ShyGuy
05-10-2018, 01:13 PM
Yes, but I know I will never bid Sfo, Jfk, or Lax. My seniority will not affect a single Virgin pilot. I am confident less then 10 Alaska pilots will go to Sfo. No matter the outcome of this SLI very few Virgin pilots base position will be affected at all. With both proposals almost every Alaska pilot will feel significant pain.

Why?

Just as you say not many AS pilots will go to SFO, I don't think there are any VX guys commuting out of ANC. Maybe 1 or 2 guys originally from Alaska who may want to bid back home. PDX maybe 25ish guys and SEA about 50ish? At best?

And as for us NY based folks who face a very likely base closure and either 2,000nm+ commutes or uprooting of families and moving them west coast, it's not a rosy situation. And they'll probably displace us to SFO/LAX.

OTZeagle1
05-10-2018, 02:08 PM
Why?

Just as you say not many AS pilots will go to SFO, I don't think there are any VX guys commuting out of ANC. Maybe 1 or 2 guys originally from Alaska who may want to bid back home. PDX maybe 25ish guys and SEA about 50ish? At best?

And as for us NY based folks who face a very likely base closure and either 2,000nm+ commutes or uprooting of families and moving them west coast, it's not a rosy situation. And they'll probably displace us to SFO/LAX.


Sir where are you based right now? How do you know your base will close? How do we not know this current slowdown in hiring is not the direct result of having to retrain the entire jfk base on the 737? By your own admittance the most affected will most certainly be Alaska pilots in Pdx and Sea.

2loud
05-10-2018, 04:12 PM
Fact? So, you are doubling down on your previous posts that all VXer's are undesirable...? Thats your fact? You paint the entire VX group as undesirable with racist like efficiency.

People providing for their families with diverse backgrounds somehow hurts you. I hope people here go back through the history of your posts and see your systematic smear campaign.

We are entitled to opinions. But you are a Piece of ******. Thats not an opinion, its a Universal Fact. Don't try to divide my airline.
Not all yíall are undesirables but many are, you included. Learn to read and comprehend. Undesirables=unwanted pilot candidates by desirable airlines. There are two exceptions: older pilots who just want to ride it out until retirement and die hard VX fans, probably second careeer late starters.
I state facts with a sprinkle of sarcasm. I donít feed you what you want to hear and you choose to throw a fit like a 12 year old girl while using vulgarity. I pity you, fool. Okay, Iíll knock it off now.

airb320
05-10-2018, 05:12 PM
Hahaha.. That's hilarious....... For some reason Napoleon Bonaparte came to mind..

I think "that weird little guy" is an outlier at AS....... or a troll....

I've had the pleasure of chatting with a few AS pilots and they all seem pretty cool. No pompous airs about them...

lol... we had some little Napoleons at VX also, one now works at Horizon🤣

AKpilot
05-10-2018, 05:14 PM
From JL just now.
Fellow Alaska Pilots,

Over the past few months, there has been a lot of speculation and many questions on the future of our NYC pilot base, and I want to thank you for your patience as we worked behind the scenes to ensure a thorough, comprehensive analysis was conducted.

This afternoon I reached out to our NYC based pilots to inform them that after an extensive financial analysis, the business decision has been made to close the pilot base on September 1, 2018.

Yadda yadda yadda.......

OCCP
05-10-2018, 07:17 PM
I think we all knew this was coming but it still sucks to see. Iím sure Alaska has a plan[emoji849]. Theyíve managed to remain hidden for 85 years so Iím sure retreating back to obscurity is the long term plan.

Packrat
05-11-2018, 06:12 AM
Letís say youíre #640...2/3 of the way down the CA list. Youíre saying that it is fair that youíll be able to bid SFO the day after the SLI comes out and be the #1 CA there? Got it.

That is exactly why there should be "No bump, no flush" language in every SLI agreement.

ShyGuy
05-11-2018, 07:55 AM
Sir where are you based right now?
New York

How do you know your base will close?
Because of the August decision to put Boeings on EWR and JFK routes and take the Airbus out. The official decision email came out yesterday.

How do we not know this current slowdown in hiring is not the direct result of having to retrain the entire jfk base on the 737?
A New York 737 base? They don't have the intestinal fortitude to do that. Oh and 'save' 2 million/yr.

By your own admittance the most affected will most certainly be Alaska pilots in Pdx and Sea.

Nope. Genius move on their part. Force VX pilots to bid SFO/LAX before the SLI comes out. Once the SLI is out, all VX pilots are SFO or LAX based. That is one common base overlap with Alaska (LAX), and one new base (SFO). Hardly any affect for PDX or SEA.

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 08:22 AM
My apologies. You are correct, you just got screwed. Sorry!

cmrflyer
05-12-2018, 01:48 AM
Just got screwed? We have been getting screwed since April of 2016.
Why havenít you fixed what kasher did to your contract????
Pathetic.
Just keep blaming others for your own weakness.

OTZeagle1
05-12-2018, 06:40 AM
Just got screwed? We have been getting screwed since April of 2016.
Why havenít you fixed what kasher did to your contract????
Pathetic.
Just keep blaming others for your own weakness.

Huh,
I keep trying, itís not for lack of effort though my friend. I think the only thing missing is banked days and trips touching though. Maybe we can fix it together, maybe not, still a pretty good job from where I sit. Sorry your east coast base closed!

NewGuy01
05-12-2018, 12:34 PM
This thread makes me sad. Big thanks to the VX guys who let me sit on the 2nd jumpseat to get home to see my 2 year old son. You both made a really special weekend with my son during training possible. He was so happy. Cool guys who were kind to an wide eyed AS pilot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KnockKnock
05-12-2018, 12:45 PM
This thread makes me sad. Big thanks to the VX guys who let me sit on the 2nd jumpseat to get home to see my 2 year old son. You both made a really special weekend with my son during training possible. He was so happy. Cool guys who were kind to an wide eyed AS pilot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don’t let these threads shape your outlook on AS. This is mostly a minority of very vocal, polar opposites, venting their frustrations. (over and over and over.....) 99.9% of both groups are moving on and accepting this is just another day in the life of an airline pilot. I’ve had some great conversations and interactions with VX guys and look forward to working with them to take AS to the next level. Welcome to the company and rest assured, the dust will settle and there will be unity in the coming days, months, years.

OCCP
05-12-2018, 07:38 PM
I understand youíre trying to be positive, but letís get real: this company is going nowhere fast

KnockKnock
05-12-2018, 09:14 PM
I understand youíre trying to be positive, but letís get real: this company is going nowhere fast
It’s not so much about being positive as I’m just not being purposefully negative. I don’t see things as dire as you do. Slowing growth to 4%, not what I want to hear but I get why. We’re still in the middle of an acquisition and it takes longer then a year to capitalize on the deal. Lowering the projected hiring numbers, not what I want to hear but I guess when only a small percentage of people who threatened to leave actually do, they don’t need as many new pilots. Closing bases, well, even you guys have admitted that the writing was on the wall for a long time on that one. I look beyond what’s happening here to other mergers and acquisitions and see it will take some time to realize the potential. I don’t know how long you were at VX but did you show up to work every day angry when they were losing money or did you keep a level head until things started to turn the corner? Why get spun up over things we have absolutely no control over? The only lever you can pull right now is to leave and if you’re not willing to do that, then you have to accept what’s happening and ride the ride.

WutFace
05-12-2018, 09:19 PM
Itís not so much about being positive as Iím just not being purposefully negative. I donít see things as dire as you do. Slowing growth to 4%, not what I want to hear but I get why. Weíre still in the middle of an acquisition and it takes longer then a year to capitalize on the deal. Lowering the projected hiring numbers, not what I want to hear but I guess when only a small percentage of people who threatened to leave actually do, they donít need as many new pilots. Closing bases, well, even you guys have admitted that the writing was on the wall for a long time on that one. I look beyond whatís happening here to other mergers and acquisitions and see it will take some time to realize the potential. I donít know how long you were at VX but did you show up to work every day angry when they were losing money or did you keep a level head until things started to turn the corner? Why get spun up over things we have absolutely no control over? The only lever you can pull right now is to leave and if youíre not willing to do that, then you have to accept whatís happening and ride the ride.

I love how expectations have slid from "Smoothest Merger Everô" to "Hey, at least you're not TWA!"

I appreciate trying to remain positive, but I feel that AS pilots have a conditioned higher tolerance to career struggles than most. And it's not healthy. That sort of condition is how contracts get passed without scope clauses.

2loud
05-12-2018, 10:50 PM
I love how expectations have slid from "Smoothest Merger Ever™" to "Hey, at least you're not TWA!"

I appreciate trying to remain positive, but I feel that AS pilots have a conditioned higher tolerance to career struggles than most. And it's not healthy. That sort of condition is how contracts get passed without scope clauses.

When management's lips are moving, they are lying.
I really don't think you have a leg to stand on criticizing this pilot group. Think pot calling kettle black. Y'all went to work for a start up non-unionized LCC willing to work for lower than average total compensation package without a contract for your entire existence.

WutFace
05-12-2018, 11:25 PM
When management's lips are moving, they are lying.
I really don't think you have a leg to stand on criticizing this pilot group. Think pot calling kettle black. Y'all went to work for a start up non-unionized LCC willing to work for lower than average total compensation package without a contract for your entire existence.

Well aren't we just two peas in a pod then!

KnockKnock
05-13-2018, 01:24 AM
I love how expectations have slid from "Smoothest Merger Everô" to "Hey, at least you're not TWA!"

I appreciate trying to remain positive, but I feel that AS pilots have a conditioned higher tolerance to career struggles than most. And it's not healthy. That sort of condition is how contracts get passed without scope clauses.
I donít think anyone at AS fell for the ďsmoothest merger everĒ shtick. Iím pretty sure everyone knew the day it was announced it was going to be a long exhausting experience for all involved. Did you buy into their b.s.? Is that why youíre so cynical? Because if youíre expecting immediate results after a $2.5 billion acquisition and merger of two totally different companies it seems like maybe you did buy into BnBís propaganda and are now disappointed it hasnít played out like they promised. We can go back and forth all day and night about the future of AS. You saying weíre doomed and me saying weíll be fine. The true lies somewhere in the middle. AS will continue to experience highs and lows, just like every airline, that ever was, has experienced them. Things are changing and from where you sit, it seems like for the worse because what was familiar to you is now gone. However, from where I sit, I see company working to break out of the small niche market that weíve succeeded in for 85 years, and bring that success to a larger audience. Short term pain for long term gain right? We have one job at this company and thatís to fly the jet safely. Iím not in marketing, Iím not in sales, Iím not in RnD, Iím not in HR, Iím not in management, Iím in the font of the plane with my feet up, drinking my coffee, thinking about how to improve the contract in a yr and a half. All this other stuff is just noise. I canít speak for any contract passed here and the dynamics of how things used to get done are from a long bygone era. I donít know about this precondition to career tolerance. However, please quote VXís section 1 scope clause so I can compare it to ASí.......Iíll wait.

Saltlife85
05-13-2018, 02:49 PM
I donít think anyone at AS fell for the ďsmoothest merger everĒ shtick. Iím pretty sure everyone knew the day it was announced it was going to be a long exhausting experience for all involved. Did you buy into their b.s.? Is that why youíre so cynical? Because if youíre expecting immediate results after a $2.5 billion acquisition and merger of two totally different companies it seems like maybe you did buy into BnBís propaganda and are now disappointed it hasnít played out like they promised. We can go back and forth all day and night about the future of AS. You saying weíre doomed and me saying weíll be fine. The true lies somewhere in the middle. AS will continue to experience highs and lows, just like every airline, that ever was, has experienced them. Things are changing and from where you sit, it seems like for the worse because what was familiar to you is now gone. However, from where I sit, I see company working to break out of the small niche market that weíve succeeded in for 85 years, and bring that success to a larger audience. Short term pain for long term gain right? We have one job at this company and thatís to fly the jet safely. Iím not in marketing, Iím not in sales, Iím not in RnD, Iím not in HR, Iím not in management, Iím in the font of the plane with my feet up, drinking my coffee, thinking about how to improve the contract in a yr and a half. All this other stuff is just noise. I canít speak for any contract passed here and the dynamics of how things used to get done are from a long bygone era. I donít know about this precondition to career tolerance. However, please quote VXís section 1 scope clause so I can compare it to ASí.......Iíll wait.

Are you saying that alaskan actually has scope language?

KnockKnock
05-13-2018, 04:40 PM
Are you saying that alaskan actually has scope language?
Nope, just pointing out how ludicrous it is for one pilot group with no scope to try and call out another pilot group with no scope. The hypocrisy is amusing. I’ve said it before. Neither group has the high ground on this so why beat that drum? Instead, let’s funnel that energy into fixing it for both groups coming up.

Saltlife85
05-13-2018, 05:23 PM
I agree.. focus on 2020 and getting solid scope and pay bumps, among other things. If were not acquired or merged before then.

All Bizniz
05-13-2018, 05:59 PM
Nope, just pointing out how ludicrous it is for one pilot group with no scope to try and call out another pilot group with no scope. The hypocrisy is amusing. I’ve said it before. Neither group has the high ground on this so why beat that drum? Instead, let’s funnel that energy into fixing it for both groups coming up.
I accept your conclusion about where we need to funnel our energies, but having used a straw man argument to get there, I gotta take some points off for that :)

It's quite legitimate for anybody to ask "Why haven't you guys not gotten a Scope Clause in your Contract, having been around for over 80 years while EVERY other Legacy and many Majors have it? It is not legitimate however to say its hypocrisy for VXers to question that fact because we too never had Scope. We never had the time nor opportunity to get one put in place. That is the all important difference.

Apples and Oranges...

Saltlife85
05-13-2018, 06:54 PM
Valid point. They've certainly had plenty of chances over the last 8 decades to negotiate scope into their contract.

Wynncore
05-13-2018, 07:08 PM
Valid point. They've certainly had plenty of chances over the last 8 decades to negotiate scope into their contract.

Yes, you're right. However, remember that Alaska was this small and unique company that mostly operated in a small and unique area of the country for the majority of its existence. Really only in the last ten years (really six) has Alaska blossomed into the airline it is today. While I wholeheartedly agree with your point re: the lack of scope, I don't think that a lot of people envisioned that Alaska Airlines would become what it is today (at least this rapidly). I'm not giving ALPA a pass on this one, but historically it is true, AS never really "needed scope" as their "gentleman's agreement" with management always worked out in the favor of both the company and the pilot group.

I'm glad to see that the majority of the pilot group is coming around and seeing the light at the impact that the lack of scope can and will have. I truly believe that a C Series platform (et al) will be introduced at AS in the next 3-5 years and the aircraft will go to QX unless the AS pilot group accepts less and/or throws in the towel in Contract 2020 negotiations. There is nothing to stop them from doing this and for a company obsessed with costs and watching its earnings and profit margins go from extremely healthy to extremely shaky in 12 months we all know this is a card they'll play.

KnockKnock
05-13-2018, 07:38 PM
I accept your conclusion about where we need to funnel our energies, but having used a straw man argument to get there, I gotta take some points off for that :)

It's quite legitimate for anybody to ask "Why haven't you guys not gotten a Scope Clause in your Contract, having been around for over 80 years while EVERY other Legacy and many Majors have it? It is not legitimate however to say its hypocrisy for VXers to question that fact because we too never had Scope. We never had the time nor opportunity to get one put in place. That is the all important difference.

Apples and Oranges...
Nope, I stand firmly by my argument that it’s total hypocrisy. You knew before you interviewed that VX did not have scope, yet, you still went. You did not know when or how long VX would be a non union shop without a contract and therefore you had no idea when, if ever, you’d get the chance to vote in scope. Yet, you still went. You can’t use time as your crutch. As it stands, you went to an airline with no scope and had no idea if or when you’d get any. You guys claim to be vets of the industry knowing how important scope is to an airline and yet you still went to one without any. If scope was on the back burner for you then, why do you now have the gumption to chastise AS pilots who have no scope. To this I say, neither of our groups can hold the moral high ground on this issue and therefore the hypocritical argument should be dead in the water. Let’s move on to things that are actually important like....getting scope

MusicPilot
05-14-2018, 04:57 AM
Nope, I stand firmly by my argument that itís total hypocrisy. You knew before you interviewed that VX did not have scope, yet, you still went. You did not know when or how long VX would be a non union shop without a contract and therefore you had no idea when, if ever, youíd get the chance to vote in scope. Yet, you still went. You canít use time as your crutch. As it stands, you went to an airline with no scope and had no idea if or when youíd get any. You guys claim to be vets of the industry knowing how important scope is to an airline and yet you still went to one without any. If scope was on the back burner for you then, why do you now have the gumption to chastise AS pilots who have no scope. To this I say, neither of our groups can hold the moral high ground on this issue and therefore the hypocritical argument should be dead in the water. Letís move on to things that are actually important like....getting scope

What makes you think AS management will ever give up Scope? What makes you think they care about your career and to write language to protect it? They showed their true colors during arbitration, which Iím not sure why arbitration would ever be written in a contract. Yes, a lot of people chose to go to VX, but many really didnít have a choice at the time. VX management was also a different breed than AS management.

Albeit only work rules, they were really good on following what was written and when there was a discrepancy they actually came to the table to try to come up with an agreement to fix it. Two totally different animals. Becoming AS wasnít a choice for the VX pilots, but thatís how this industry works sometimes.

Now, we have to find a way to fix the holes in the current AS contract and itís going to take all of us. Letís just see how management tries to manipulate that.

Saltlife85
05-14-2018, 05:53 AM
What makes you think AS management will ever give up Scope? What makes you think they care about your career and to write language to protect it? They showed their true colors during arbitration, which Iím not sure why arbitration would ever be written in a contract. Yes, a lot of people chose to go to VX, but many really didnít have a choice at the time. VX management was also a different breed than AS management.

Albeit only work rules, they were really good on following what was written and when there was a discrepancy they actually came to the table to try to come up with an agreement to fix it. Two totally different animals. Becoming AS wasnít a choice for the VX pilots, but thatís how this industry works sometimes.

Now, we have to find a way to fix the holes in the current AS contract and itís going to take all of us. Letís just see how management tries to manipulate that.

As a VXír I gotta call you out on that one. Different animals? I think not. Make no mistake this management team and AS are very similar, they all are. DC and the rest screwed this pilot group over several times during my 6 years here. IPO comes to mind. And I disagree they came to the table willing to fix things and followed the ďrule bookĒ. Reserve rules come to mind, among many others. CSS/management was always interpreting things so that it benefited them. I agree with everything else you said .

All Bizniz
05-14-2018, 06:14 AM
Nope, I stand firmly by my argument that it’s total hypocrisy. You knew before you interviewed that VX did not have scope, yet, you still went. You did not know when or how long VX would be a non union shop without a contract and therefore you had no idea when, if ever, you’d get the chance to vote in scope. Yet, you still went. You can’t use time as your crutch. As it stands, you went to an airline with no scope and had no idea if or when you’d get any. You guys claim to be vets of the industry knowing how important scope is to an airline and yet you still went to one without any. If scope was on the back burner for you then, why do you now have the gumption to chastise AS pilots who have no scope. To this I say, neither of our groups can hold the moral high ground on this issue and therefore the hypocritical argument should be dead in the water. Let’s move on to things that are actually important like....getting scope
You're "Wrong n Strong".

I understand your reflexive need to be defensive but that's OK.. We can agree to disagree...

From the start, apart from the payrate, VX offered pretty decent Scheduling and QOL provisions. Issues popped up pretty quickly however and that's why within a year of operations, I remember the discussions and eventual efforts to get a Union on property so that we could move towards getting an industry standard compensation and benefits package.

May I also remind you of the fact that no Start-up has ever started out the gate with industry standard provisions, scope included. Not FedEx, not SW, not JB, not Spirit; I could go on and on..

So it was not an anomaly nor is it a "head scratcher" that guys made the decision to go to VX without some of those provisions in place at the outset..

It is an anomaly though and certainly a "head scratcher" that after over 80 years and having a Union on property, Scope did not make its way into AS's contract.

KnockKnock
05-14-2018, 07:33 AM
You're "Wrong n Strong".

I understand your reflexive need to be defensive but that's OK.. We can agree to disagree...

From the start, apart from the payrate, VX offered pretty decent Scheduling and QOL provisions. Issues popped up pretty quickly however and that's why within a year of operations, I remember the discussions and eventual efforts to get a Union on property so that we could move towards getting an industry standard compensation and benefits package.

May I also remind you of the fact that no Start-up has ever started out the gate with industry standard provisions, scope included. Not FedEx, not SW, not JB, not Spirit; I could go on and on..

So it was not an anomaly nor is it a "head scratcher" that guys made the decision to go to VX without some of those provisions in place at the outset..

It is an anomaly though and certainly a "head scratcher" that after over 80 years and having a Union on property, Scope did not make its way into AS's contract.
I wouldn’t say my calling out hypocrisy is a “reflexive need to be defensive”. You have 44 posts, all in “defense” of your views. Hmmmm, is this irony or more hypocrisy??? Either way, it is absolutely ridiculous for one group of pilots that volunteered to work for a company without scope, to stand on a soap box and chastise another pilot group that works for a company without any measurable scope. The shoulda, woulda, coulda argument holds no water. The facts remain, VX had no scope when it started and it had no scope 10 years later when it ceased to exist. You say, “but yeah, we were going to get some, I was sure of it!” You didn’t, end of story. Enough of the holier then thou sh!t. The only head scratcher is why you insist to continue an argument that is based on opinions only? The facts as they stand are neither group had/has scope. I could go into the laundry list of reasons why AS pilots of past decades didn’t think they needed scope and why guys like me came here confident, after talking with friends at the company, the revolution was at hand and scope, among other things, would be voted in, but that might be construed as making excuses. Biz, I think you’re an intelligent guy, you think things through before you write and you have valid points. On this though, you’re dead wrong and I’m basing this on the FACTS. Let’s leave this bloody pulp of a horse carcass to rest and move on so we can both look back and say, “remember when we didn’t have scope? That was dumb!”

MusicPilot
05-14-2018, 07:34 AM
As a VXír I gotta call you out on that one. Different animals? I think not. Make no mistake this management team and AS are very similar, they all are. DC and the rest screwed this pilot group over several times during my 6 years here. IPO comes to mind. And I disagree they came to the table willing to fix things and followed the ďrule bookĒ. Reserve rules come to mind, among many others. CSS/management was always interpreting things so that it benefited them. I agree with everything else you said .

Reserve was the only issue. Even then, there were a lot of pilots that even reserve was good to them. Once you held a line you were pretty much golden. CSS had a different play book. Once that was realized it was fixed. The big screw over didnít really start until IPO. If they did us with the IPO right Iím not so sure the union drive wouldíve been as successful.

Weíre now dealing with a ďregionalĒ mentality. Like a said, 2 different animals. Yes, management will always look out for themselves first. In the end, DC was predictable. At least you knew what pile of dung you were gonna step in.

KnockKnock
05-14-2018, 08:12 AM
What makes you think AS management will ever give up Scope? What makes you think they care about your career and to write language to protect it? They showed their true colors during arbitration, which Iím not sure why arbitration would ever be written in a contract. Yes, a lot of people chose to go to VX, but many really didnít have a choice at the time. VX management was also a different breed than AS management.

Albeit only work rules, they were really good on following what was written and when there was a discrepancy they actually came to the table to try to come up with an agreement to fix it. Two totally different animals. Becoming AS wasnít a choice for the VX pilots, but thatís how this industry works sometimes.

Now, we have to find a way to fix the holes in the current AS contract and itís going to take all of us. Letís just see how management tries to manipulate that.
How can you be certain, without a doubt, you would have gained an airtight scope clause in your first contract? You can’t. Not only don’t I THINK, AS doesn’t want to give up scope, I KNOW they don’t want to give up scope. We all know that. It really is going to come down to standing our ground. There will be people from both camps that will wear down as contract negotiations grind on. It won’t be a fun time. Look no further than JB. It’s been an exhausting couple of years for them and we’ll see what they were able to attain since they finally have an AIP. The whole, “I can’t believe you guys don’t have scope” speech, coming from guys that didn’t have scope, is total nonsense. We can both sit here and make up a million excuses as to who, what, where, why and when but at the end of the day, neither group had/has scope so neither group gets any soap box time. So, now what, I guess we both suck. Let’s not go down in history as the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked and work together towards something better.......TOGETHER

Beta82
05-14-2018, 09:13 AM
I agree.. focus on 2020 and getting solid scope and pay bumps, among other things. If were not acquired or merged before then.

2020 needs to be all QOL improvements no need to get sidetracked by small pay increases. Keep your eyes on the ball, a few bucks here or there would be a distraction. Scope, scheduling rewrite, work rules, etc.

airb320
05-14-2018, 09:32 AM
2020 needs to be all QOL improvements no need to get sidetracked by small pay increases. Keep your eyes on the ball, a few bucks here or there would be a distraction. Scope, scheduling rewrite, work rules, etc.

No 1 item in 2020 is to get rid of the retirement plan for ďsomeĒ of our Pilots!
401k for all to level the playing field.
Itís expensive and benefits very few and should give us a great starting point😉
That alone should Ďfundí several improvements the majority is looking for.

DangleDunlops
05-14-2018, 09:39 AM
This is a hiring thread. Stop forcing people to wade through your excrement to mine what little information there is on hiring.

MusicPilot
05-14-2018, 09:53 AM
This is a hiring thread. Stop forcing people to wade through your excrement to mine what little information there is on hiring.

Weíre not hiring. Is that better? Check back in 2019 😏