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View Full Version : AWA/US/APA contract morsels


757HI
12-10-2013, 09:16 AM
One thing that always drove me nuts as a line pilot during CBA negotiations is that we did not have access to industry contracts at OAL's like union leaders do.

I'd like to offer the AWA CBA to anyone that may wish a copy.

We should all have a copy of the current APA contract, if you don't get one ASAP. For any fUS's, west or east, that don't have a copy, you can download it on Wings.

All pilots of US and AA should have all three contracts. Education, knowledge, and collaboration is what will make us successful in the coming JCBA.

Sticking to fiefdom mentality, jealousy, and misdirected emotions like anger will divide our new group, weaken our resolve to focus on core issues, and dissolve sour solidarity handing the other side the leverage they need to out-negotiate us. Remember, the most powerful tool Parker's team has used against AWA/US pilots is the division of the group. Don't fall into that trap!

Now that we have that out of the way:

The thrust of this thread is for us to share our favorite morsels of our contracts and discuss our contracts features.

We are all adults so let's be sure to post with care.
-no personal attacks.
-stick to the topic, no thread creep.
-be civil and respectful with each other.


757HI
12-10-2013, 09:25 AM
AWA short term disability.

If a pilot has a short term illness or injury, the beauty of short term disability is that in the case of a relapse, or new unrelated short term disability occurs before the pilots sick bank is replenished, the pilot will still have income.

Without a significant savings in a readily liquid account, after a short term disability with sick bank only, the pilot is exposed to severe financial hardship until the sick bank is replenished.

Keeping such a savings account is expensive, and in some cases not possible.

NEXT!:)

bassslayer
12-10-2013, 11:28 AM
How about we make the JCBA process real quick easy and argument free.

Step 1. Gab a copy of Deltas contract
Step 2. Slide it across the table to Mgmt
Step 3. Inform them we want full implementation of this as soon as there is a list. (More than likely 2years) with a parity clause when Delta gets a new contract.
Step 4. Walk out door

If this doesn't work hire a high priced team of lawyers/ professional neogiators to negotiate a new contract similar to those the APA used to get there bankruptcy settlement.


The Drizzle
12-10-2013, 11:32 AM
What he said.

ForeverFO
12-10-2013, 12:36 PM
Not knowing if "Section III, paragraph 2b" of the APA contract is superior to the others in the same operational area, it's hard to make a comparison... which is why, yes, we need to educate ourselves. It's worth doing.

One example - AA has 100% DH pay, and Jan 1 it's business or better for INT'l at least. That's worth retaining.

CanoePilot
12-10-2013, 01:37 PM
How about we make the JCBA process real quick easy and argument free.

Step 1. Gab a copy of Deltas contract
Step 2. Slide it across the table to Mgmt
Step 3. Inform them we want full implementation of this as soon as there is a list. (More than likely 2years) with a parity clause when Delta gets a new contract.
Step 4. Walk out door

If this doesn't work hire a high priced team of lawyers/ professional neogiators to negotiate a new contract similar to those the APA used to get there bankruptcy settlement.

Delta plus 5%.

justjack
12-10-2013, 07:04 PM
Start by hiring "a high priced team of lawyers/ professional negotiators to negotiate a new contract similar to those the APA used to get there bankruptcy settlement."
I assure you that the company will.

757HI
12-10-2013, 08:19 PM
AWA has full pay no credit for DH. First is automatic, but only space available.

If a DH is on your pairing, you can check in early online to secure your FC seat. If you wait until you show up for the flight :45 prior, the agent says 'sorry Charlie'.

Pilot X
12-11-2013, 04:45 AM
AWA has full pay no credit for DH. First is automatic, but only space available.

If a DH is on your pairing, you can check in early online to secure your FC seat. If you wait until you show up for the flight :45 prior, the agent says 'sorry Charlie'.

What if your name isn't Charlie? :D

757HI
12-11-2013, 07:44 AM
Pilot X,
LOL

AWA morsel of the day:

Duty rig. 5:15 pay/credit average per duty period.

I do mostly HI trips. The block hovers around 12 hours give or take, and the trip touches three days (32hour RON).

The pay is 15:45.

An Airbus guy does one short leg to a +24 hr layover, then flies 4hrs on day two and ends up back to base. Trip pays 10:30

A Four day pairing will pay 21:00

Rig or block whichever is higher.

R57 relay
12-11-2013, 08:02 AM
Pilot X,
LOL

AWA morsel of the day:

Duty rig. 5:15 pay/credit average per duty period.

I do mostly HI trips. The block hovers around 12 hours give or take, and the trip touches three days (32hour RON).

The pay is 15:45.

An Airbus guy does one short leg to a +24 hr layover, then flies 4hrs on day two and ends up back to base. Trip pays 10:30

A Four day pairing will pay 21:00

Rig or block whichever is higher.

I wish we'd kept the long rate. USAPA had TAed that. Oh well.

crzipilot
12-11-2013, 08:43 AM
Wasn't that in the MOU or MTA, and APA traded it for some other changes? think i remember that update, but think it's going to bit us in the backside if the trips keep looking like they do in Jan.

R57 relay
12-11-2013, 08:51 AM
Wasn't that in the MOU or MTA, and APA traded it for some other changes? think i remember that update, but think it's going to bit us in the backside if the trips keep looking like they do in Jan.

That was the 1:3.25 rig. It wasn't quite as good as the long rate, but would have helped with the 30+ RONs that we have.

I was kind of frustrated with the APA giving that up, but they had to decide on multiple issues and I figured that with their larger international operation the 1:3.25 rig didn't help as many pilots as the per diem did.

757HI
12-11-2013, 09:25 AM
That rig was traded for increased international per diem.

ForeverFO
12-11-2013, 12:15 PM
We need a 5:00 minimum day, not average.

Years ago, when we gave that up, it was the dumbest thing we ever did. Worse than scope, IMO. I was holding 12 day 78 hour genteel trips as a freaking new hire.

Now, 20 years later, the average domestic line has ballooned (days worked) for everybody. In the end, ultimately, it is $$ / number of work days, that makes a line a good one. I used to bid sort on the MD-80 using the TAFB pay (per diem, time away from base) on the bid sheet, whereby less TAFB money equates to less time working, for a given 78 hour month.

I know, wishful thinking, but it sure was sweet. :(

Andrew_VT
12-11-2013, 01:32 PM
We need a 5:00 minimum day, not average.


The only downside to a high minimum day is it alters the way the company builds trips. i.e. it makes them less commutable. Commuters like trips that start late on the first day and end early the last day. This gives them all day to commute and lets them avoid buying a hotel room in base (or needing a crashpad). If there is a 5 hour minimum day the company won't allow a trip to be built starting or ending with a single 2 hour leg to/from an overnight.

757HI
12-11-2013, 02:33 PM
We need a 5:00 minimum day, not average.

Years ago, when we gave that up, it was the dumbest thing we ever did. Worse than scope, IMO. I was holding 12 day 78 hour genteel trips as a freaking new hire.

Now, 20 years later, the average domestic line has ballooned (days worked) for everybody. In the end, ultimately, it is $$ / number of work days, that makes a line a good one. I used to bid sort on the MD-80 using the TAFB pay (per diem, time away from base) on the bid sheet, whereby less TAFB money equates to less time working, for a given 78 hour month.

I know, wishful thinking, but it sure was sweet. :(

I started the thread about what the good things are in our three respective CBA's.

Everything can be improved on.
Regards, HI

R57 relay
12-11-2013, 05:03 PM
I started the thread about what the good things are in our three respective CBA's.

Everything can be improved on.
Regards, HI

Not really. Your former boss is the commander here. We agreed to certain things and we have a dollar cap on them. Parker courted us because he needed certain things. When he doesn't, he will revert to the Gerry Glass school of labor practices. It's just the way it is and we need to make sure we get our $87 mill worth. Other than that, wait until 2018 and get our crap together.

AA pilots made a deal with the Devils. Parker, Kirby, Hemingway and Glass. That's Okay if you know what you did, but I think some don't know what they did. It is what it is.

ForeverFO
12-12-2013, 09:49 AM
AA pilots made a deal with the Devils. Parker, Kirby, Hemingway and Glass. That's Okay if you know what you did, but I think some don't know what they did. It is what it is.

You're probably right, but here's the rub... right now, airlines are making money. Financially, things are looking up. This merger is going to be chaotic; there's no way around that. We can take advantage of the chaotic nature to negotiate contractural improvements. IOW, there's going to be so much on management's plate to deal with, my guess would be we can gain improvements now during the merger that we'll never be able to do in 6 years.

It is

CRITICAL

that we present a reasonably united front. If we are squabbling over SLI stuff, we will be easy meat. Divide and conquer was AA's labor mantra since I was hired.

WE CAN DO THIS!

R57 relay
12-13-2013, 01:16 PM
It's not that I don't think we can make gains in our JCBA, but as I understand it most of it is already done. That really all we have left is the clean up of our two contracts, and that is to be done on a tight timeline, with us going to arbitration if we can't reach and agreement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if not then we won't be able to cherry pick the best of both contracts. We had $87 million for improvements and the APA has already decided on most of this, right? If so, then any other changes will have to be "paid for."

I have heard that the company wanted somethings, so we need to price their wants correctly. We need to let our negotiating committees what is important to us. I'd like to see reserve improvements and some kind of rig for the long overnights we are going to have with FAR 117.

US's mantra has been "FU, grieve it!"

Some SLI arguments are inevitable. Looks at UA/CO and I don't see the east/west thing going away with Judge Silver's ruling. I wish we could learn to not hate each other over it.

bassslayer
12-13-2013, 07:39 PM
It's not that I don't think we can make gains in our JCBA, but as I understand it most of it is already done. That really all we have left is the clean up of our two contracts, and that is to be done on a tight timeline, with us going to arbitration if we can't reach and agreement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if not then we won't be able to cherry pick the best of both contracts. We had $87 million for improvements and the APA has already decided on most of this, right? If so, then any other changes will have to be "paid for."

I have heard that the company wanted somethings, so we need to price their wants correctly. We need to let our negotiating committees what is important to us. I'd like to see reserve improvements and some kind of rig for the long overnights we are going to have with FAR 117.

US's mantra has been "FU, grieve it!"

Some SLI arguments are inevitable. Looks at UA/CO and I don't see the east/west thing going away with Judge Silver's ruling. I wish we could learn to not hate each other over it.

Sadly i don't see the hatred going away. I was on an all all nighter the other night and there was a West guy and his wife/girlfriend riding the van with us to the hotel. They were Nonrev or something, he was in street clothes. My CA was talking to one of our FA's about the merger and possible new non-rev policies. This dude butted into the conversation and made it known that he was AWA and how bad the NIC was gonna hurt everyone and how Karma was a ***** etc. etc. ect. In front of passengers of course. We just sat that kind of stunned. His wife had her head down on his shoulder and wouldn't lift it. It was obvious how embarrassed she was. He actually got a little upset with her because she wouldn't pick her head up. I'm totally neutral as a third lister but as far as I'm concerned, this douche and people like him can sit and rot at the bottom of the list along side me.

DCA A321 FO
12-13-2013, 10:34 PM
Sadly i don't see the hatred going away. I was on an all all nighter the other night and there was a West guy and his wife/girlfriend riding the van with us to the hotel. They were Nonrev or something, he was in street clothes. My CA was talking to one of our FA's about the merger and possible new non-rev policies. This dude butted into the conversation and made it known that he was AWA and how bad the NIC was gonna hurt everyone and how Karma was a ***** etc. etc. ect. In front of passengers of course. We just sat that kind of stunned. His wife had her head down on his shoulder and wouldn't lift it. It was obvious how embarrassed she was. He actually got a little upset with her because she wouldn't pick her head up. I'm totally neutral as a third lister but as far as I'm concerned, this douche and people like him can sit and rot at the bottom of the list along side me.

The good news for you bassslayer, some of these guys are gonna stroke out, so just like the old USSR, you move up any way you can.

R57 relay
12-14-2013, 07:08 AM
Sadly i don't see the hatred going away. I was on an all all nighter the other night and there was a West guy and his wife/girlfriend riding the van with us to the hotel. They were Nonrev or something, he was in street clothes. My CA was talking to one of our FA's about the merger and possible new non-rev policies. This dude butted into the conversation and made it known that he was AWA and how bad the NIC was gonna hurt everyone and how Karma was a ***** etc. etc. ect. In front of passengers of course. We just sat that kind of stunned. His wife had her head down on his shoulder and wouldn't lift it. It was obvious how embarrassed she was. He actually got a little upset with her because she wouldn't pick her head up. I'm totally neutral as a third lister but as far as I'm concerned, this douche and people like him can sit and rot at the bottom of the list along side me.

For some it will never go away. They will one day wake and wonder why the whole world no longer wanted to be around them.

Rabid Seagull
12-14-2013, 07:44 AM
Pilot X,
LOL

AWA morsel of the day:

Duty rig. 5:15 pay/credit average per duty period.

I do mostly HI trips. The block hovers around 12 hours give or take, and the trip touches three days (32hour RON).

The pay is 15:45.

An Airbus guy does one short leg to a +24 hr layover, then flies 4hrs on day two and ends up back to base. Trip pays 10:30

A Four day pairing will pay 21:00

Rig or block whichever is higher.

Use caution with your wish list ( If I'm reading your post correctly).

Your 5:15 duty rig, as listed, is per Duty Period. You want per Duty Day. Your HI trips would still be 12 hours because you're only going to work two times and with the rig only 10:30...or block.

For your second trip example, that is correct to get paid 10:30

A four day pairing may be 21:00, unless it ends on a red-eye from the west coast and that was your third time of going to work (third duty).

You can ask any JetBlue guy how a 3- day ABQ or LAS trip ends up being 10:00 pay (ABQ about 10:20 because of block). Officially a three day ( ending with a red-eye) but only going to work 2 times and the rig is 5 hours per duty period.

eaglefly
12-14-2013, 09:32 AM
Sadly i don't see the hatred going away. I was on an all all nighter the other night and there was a West guy and his wife/girlfriend riding the van with us to the hotel. They were Nonrev or something, he was in street clothes. My CA was talking to one of our FA's about the merger and possible new non-rev policies. This dude butted into the conversation and made it known that he was AWA and how bad the NIC was gonna hurt everyone and how Karma was a ***** etc. etc. ect. In front of passengers of course. We just sat that kind of stunned. His wife had her head down on his shoulder and wouldn't lift it. It was obvious how embarrassed she was. He actually got a little upset with her because she wouldn't pick her head up. I'm totally neutral as a third lister but as far as I'm concerned, this douche and people like him can sit and rot at the bottom of the list along side me.

I'm sure all sides have their stories, so relating this is just as helpful to the group as another relating their anti-eagle flow 3rd lister stories which some swear by their sainted grandmothers isn't true. The beasties, westicles and AAnuses are all going to be one happy family, aren't we ? :cool:

Saabs
12-14-2013, 10:44 AM
I'm sure all sides have their stories, so relating this is just as helpful to the group as another relating their anti-eagle flow 3rd lister stories which some swear by their sainted grandmothers isn't true. The beasties, westicles and AAnuses are all going to be one happy family, aren't we ? :cool:

I still don't get what eagle flows and third listers have to do with one another.

YourFnout
12-14-2013, 10:52 AM
Quote:





Originally Posted by eaglefly


I'm sure all sides have their stories, so relating this is just as helpful to the group as another relating their anti-eagle flow 3rd lister stories which some swear by their sainted grandmothers isn't true. The beasties, westicles and AAnuses are all going to be one happy family, aren't we ?




I still don't get what eagle flows and third listers have to do with one another.

Me neither, I honestly hadn't given the SLI much thought b/c I knew where I fit into this puzzle.

Eaglefly, how many guys are below you on the AA seniority list at the POR? Not the one for bidding different things, but the master list.

If the Arbitrators uses relative seniority you are probably assured to have the bottom 100 pilots be from US Airways 190 fleet.

flyinawa
12-14-2013, 01:30 PM
For some it will never go away. They will one day wake and wonder why the whole world no longer wanted to be around them.

There's a fair amount of this occurring on both sides. I am always cordial regardless of what side of the Mississippi you're based on but happily join the debate when somebody else initiates it....with the exception of when I'm around the general public. Shamelessly arguing in front of a bunch of people who could give a crap is embarrassing and frankly makes us look like children.

PurpleTurtle
12-14-2013, 01:45 PM
There's a fair amount of this occurring on both sides. I am always cordial regardless of what side of the Mississippi you're based on but happily join the debate when somebody else initiates it....with the exception of when I'm around the general public. Shamelessly arguing in front of a bunch of people who could give a crap is embarrassing and frankly makes us look like children.

Thankfully there is no public here. :D

Monkeyfly
12-15-2013, 08:21 PM
I want to say thanks again to the Usairways crew who let me on their flight after the door was closed and the jetway pulled after seeing me in the window. The agent had closed the door right before I got there, 15 minutes before departure time!:eek:

I was able to get home much earlier and save my son from sitting though my daughter's ballet lesson.

The best part of the story is that they were an "east" crew and they assumed I was a "west" pilot (wearing a UAL uniform, looks similar from a distance, going to PHX), but they opened the door anyway!

A Christmas Miracle!:D

flybywire44
12-16-2013, 04:30 AM
I want to say thanks again to the Usairways crew who let me on their flight after the door was closed and the jetway pulled after seeing me in the window. The agent had closed the door right before I got there, 15 minutes before departure time!:eek:

I was able to get home much earlier and save my son from sitting though my daughter's ballet lesson.

The best part of the story is that they were an "east" crew and they assumed I was a "west" pilot (wearing a UAL uniform, looks similar from a distance, going to PHX), but they opened the door anyway!

A Christmas Miracle!:D

Awesome!!!

R57 relay
12-16-2013, 05:21 AM
There's a fair amount of this occurring on both sides. I am always cordial regardless of what side of the Mississippi you're based on but happily join the debate when somebody else initiates it....with the exception of when I'm around the general public. Shamelessly arguing in front of a bunch of people who could give a crap is embarrassing and frankly makes us look like children.

Thanks for being that way. There is plenty of bad behavior on both sides, but I really think it's from the 5% all airlines have. 9 out of 10 interactions I've had with west guys have been good and I know some great guys out there.

You hit the nail on the head. Outside of our cockpits and these boards most people don't give a crap about this stuff.

I am encouraged by this merger. Way before the UA/US merger was decided in 2000, I had several bad personal interactions with UA guys and the ALPA board was pretty nasty(possibly precipitated by our jug head pilot comment of "Where can I get my 747 manual?"). I've had no bad personal interactions with AA guys and few on the boards. Had a AA jumpseater that other day that said "Thanks for the ride, really glad we put this together."

I know there will be trash talking on the boards about the SLI. I will just try even harder to not take it personally. As an old guy told me once, when you go through something like this both sides throw around a lot of BS. You have to be careful to not start believing your own BS.

R57 relay
12-16-2013, 05:25 AM
I want to say thanks again to the Usairways crew who let me on their flight after the door was closed and the jetway pulled after seeing me in the window. The agent had closed the door right before I got there, 15 minutes before departure time!:eek:

I was able to get home much earlier and save my son from sitting though my daughter's ballet lesson.

The best part of the story is that they were an "east" crew and they assumed I was a "west" pilot (wearing a UAL uniform, looks similar from a distance, going to PHX), but they opened the door anyway!

A Christmas Miracle!:D

Glad that worked out. Thanks for sharing the good news.

VenetianFryCook
12-16-2013, 05:33 PM
I want to say thanks again to the Usairways crew who let me on their flight after the door was closed and the jetway pulled after seeing me in the window. The agent had closed the door right before I got there, 15 minutes before departure time!:eek:

I was able to get home much earlier and save my son from sitting though my daughter's ballet lesson.

The best part of the story is that they were an "east" crew and they assumed I was a "west" pilot (wearing a UAL uniform, looks similar from a distance, going to PHX), but they opened the door anyway!

A Christmas Miracle!:D

I'm glad we got you where you needed to be. Contrary to the conclusions you might draw from this forum, for the vast majority of us, the East/West stuff stops at the jumpseat. I've never personally witnessed a jumpseat denial over it, and when the topic comes up the conversation generally stays respectful. We're just trying to get everybody to and from work.

The handful of guys I know who really are fully consumed with HATRED over the matter self-police. For example, a couple years ago I flew with a militant DOH guy who HATES the West and everything about them. When the West started flying one of the flights in his commuter market, he just wouldn't take that flight ... he'd ride another carrier or wait for an East flight. Probably better for all concerned! Of course, people who are that angry and unable to control their emotions enough to get a ride home are few and far between on both sides of the divide - though they are probably over-represented on the message boards!!

flybywire44
12-17-2013, 07:56 AM
I'm glad we got you where you needed to be. Contrary to the conclusions you might draw from this forum, for the vast majority of us, the East/West stuff stops at the jumpseat. I've never personally witnessed a jumpseat denial over it, and when the topic comes up the conversation generally stays respectful. We're just trying to get everybody to and from work.

The handful of guys I know who really are fully consumed with HATRED over the matter self-police. For example, a couple years ago I flew with a militant DOH guy who HATES the West and everything about them. When the West started flying one of the flights in his commuter market, he just wouldn't take that flight ... he'd ride another carrier or wait for an East flight. Probably better for all concerned! Of course, people who are that angry and unable to control their emotions enough to get a ride home are few and far between on both sides of the divide - though they are probably over-represented on the message boards!!

I'd try everything to help a jumpseat get on if I ever saw a East or West pilot deny each other... ie. "We can make this work for just one leg can't we?"

757HI
12-24-2013, 11:18 AM
You are correct. However, that old duty rig was better than we currently have.

We need to get that long rate rig back, and make it calendar day as you so rightly point out. That would stop the 23:59 hour layovers we suffered through as they avoid triggering the rig.

Thanks for bringing that up.

Use caution with your wish list ( If I'm reading your post correctly).

Your 5:15 duty rig, as listed, is per Duty Period. You want per Duty Day. Your HI trips would still be 12 hours because you're only going to work two times and with the rig only 10:30...or block.

For your second trip example, that is correct to get paid 10:30

A four day pairing may be 21:00, unless it ends on a red-eye from the west coast and that was your third time of going to work (third duty).

You can ask any JetBlue guy how a 3- day ABQ or LAS trip ends up being 10:00 pay (ABQ about 10:20 because of block). Officially a three day ( ending with a red-eye) but only going to work 2 times and the rig is 5 hours per duty period.

texaspilot76
12-25-2013, 06:03 PM
What does the East contract say about jury duty? If you miss a work day, will they dock your pay?

R57 relay
12-25-2013, 06:11 PM
What does the East contract say about jury duty? If you miss a work day, will they dock your pay?

No, you get paid.

texaspilot76
12-25-2013, 06:18 PM
Thanks R57.

N43898
01-10-2014, 08:03 AM
Is there a min pay for day with the MOU? As far as I read it, the only min is 3:00. Right now it is 5:00 at airways.

The Drizzle
01-10-2014, 08:23 AM
Is there a min pay for day with the MOU? As far as I read it, the only min is 3:00. Right now it is 5:00 at airways.

It's 5:00 per duty period, not day. Big difference.

Vortexxx
01-10-2014, 08:46 AM
AA Contact
Let's see?
Reserve System, nope!
Trip Trade System, sorry!
Time line for monthly Bids, not!
Monthly Vacancy Bids that bump Junior crews, horrible!
401K, costly
OK the best of the worst:
Missed Trip for Commuting, good

El Guapo
01-10-2014, 10:06 AM
So when are we going to 12 in a 30 and 13 in a 31 off a month for reserves? Still only 11 for Feb.