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flapshalfspeed
01-12-2014, 03:11 PM
Just thought I'd point out that Skywest just negotiated a pay raise, and there are no signs they'll be losing out on any of their 76-seat feed or EJet orders as a consequence.

Contrast that with Endeavor/Pinnacle, PSA, and add to that list Eagle--all ALPA represented regionals--all of which have taken huge paycuts just to maintain their existing flying (or marginally increase it).

Statistically speaking, if you are a regional airline pilot, it's becoming very difficult to argue that ALPA representation provides a substantive benefit to regional members. While correlation is not causation, I would argue that ALPA representation negatively affects regional airline pilots by placing them under the same umbrella as mainline MECs/national leadership, whose interests often run counter to the career interests of regional pilots.

Just two cents I figured I'd throw out there for discussion/consideration.


astec
01-12-2014, 03:17 PM
great, just another thing to make skywest pilots heads and ego's that much bigger.

They can barely fit through the cockpit doors now.

BoilerUP
01-12-2014, 03:20 PM
Its also worth throwing out there for discussion/consideration that Skywest Inc. hasn't been in bankruptcy like Pinnacle and Eagle were when they took concessions.

PSA and the current Eagle TA, even the ASA/XJT TA? That's a different story altogether and fits your narrative much better.


CaptKrunch
01-12-2014, 03:24 PM
Psa didn't take a HUGE pay cut. They took a pay cap 12capt/4Fo with a $1 a hour raise when the 30 CRJ's are delivered. 30 CRJ's which isn't a "marginal" increase. It's a 60% increase in fleet size. This was a **** deal but if your going to call us out for voting in this crap please at least have your facts strait.

Captain Tony
01-12-2014, 03:29 PM
1 year duration. I expect Chip won't be so "generous" next year after the dust settles at ExpressJet. I wouldn't put that pool in just yet.

Utah
01-12-2014, 03:44 PM
Just for clarification, only about 4-500 out of 3260 pilots are getting a raise. For the other 2800 pilots, were getting around $300-400 for uniforms, medicals, and per diem. It won't even cover the increased cost of health insurance this year.

johnso29
01-12-2014, 04:06 PM
It's called WHIPSAW. Skywest gets a raise just as ExpressJet is asked to take concessions. Skywest pilots are pawns just as much as XE pilots.

Jet87
01-12-2014, 04:08 PM
great, just another thing to make skywest pilots heads and ego's that much bigger.

They can barely fit through the cockpit doors now.

I know my head has gotten so big I'm now having a hard time pulling my commando sweater on

#skywestpilotproblems

CaptainNameless
01-12-2014, 05:27 PM
There is nothing to envy in the Skywest deal.

The crap XJT TA that is going back to the drawing board in 2 days is better than it (and like I said, it's crap). We were offered uniform increase too. They have to because they know if they take away pay no pilot is going to spend a nickle of his own money on uniforms and they can't have us looking like homeless people if they want to keep up the charade.

rcfd13
01-12-2014, 05:48 PM
It's called WHIPSAW. Skywest gets a raise just as ExpressJet is asked to take concessions. Skywest pilots are pawns just as much as XE pilots.

We get a minimal raise which doesn't even keep up with inflation while XJT takes concessions. The timing of it was probably planned in a way to keep the pilot groups fighting. Management loves it when the pilots hate each other. It diverts attention away from them.

By the looks of some of the posts on this forum they got exactly what they wanted. Everyone is jumping aboard the Skywest pilot hate train.

Redbird611
01-12-2014, 06:41 PM
It's called WHIPSAW. Skywest gets a raise just as ExpressJet is asked to take concessions. Skywest pilots are pawns just as much as XE pilots.

I don't think you know how whipsaw really works. In a true whipsaw scenario SkyWest would face pay CUTS following our concessionary TA. SkyWest pay raises don't exactly fit the traditional whipsaw pattern. However, theoretically the aircraft freeze changes represent a cost advantage that equals or exceeds the value of the pay raises, according to ALPA evaluation anyway.

johnso29
01-12-2014, 07:02 PM
I don't think you know how whipsaw really works. In a true whipsaw scenario SkyWest would face pay CUTS following our concessionary TA. SkyWest pay raises don't exactly fit the traditional whipsaw pattern. However, theoretically the aircraft freeze changes represent a cost advantage that equals or exceeds the value of the pay raises, according to ALPA evaluation anyway.

I understand what whipsaw is. I lived it.

Is the Skywest pilots agreement cheaper than the current ExpressJet contract? And if an aircraft freeze change savings equal or exceeds the pay raises, then wouldn't Skywest still be cheaper? And doesn't that provide management an ability to threaten transferring flying?

You don't want two unhappy groups when it comes to whipsaw. So you get ExpressJet to take cuts, then you can cut Skywest pay. You can't cut Skywest pay before you cut ExpressJet pay.

Redbird611
01-12-2014, 07:18 PM
Is the Skywest pilots agreement cheaper than the current ExpressJet contract?

Yes

And if an aircraft freeze change savings equal or exceeds the pay raises, then wouldn't Skywest still be cheaper? And doesn't that provide management an ability to threaten transferring flying?

Yes, but neither the XJT TA nor the SKYW offer change that.

You don't want two unhappy groups when it comes to whipsaw. So you get ExpressJet to take cuts, then you can cut Skywest pay. You can't cut Skywest pay before you cut ExpressJet pay.

Okay, but the cuts to ExpressJet don't take us below SkyWest costs. We would still be significantly more expensive under the TA than SkyWest, so how exactly would Inc be able to credibly whipsaw SkyWest into lower pay? They'd know that there is no threat of aircraft transfer to ExpressJet. If they intend to further turn the screws on ExpressJet why is the current TA offer above SkyWest compensation?

TheTransporter
01-12-2014, 07:23 PM
Just thought I'd point out that Skywest just negotiated a pay raise, and there are no signs they'll be losing out on any of their 76-seat feed or EJet orders as a consequence.

Contrast that with Endeavor/Pinnacle, PSA, and add to that list Eagle--all ALPA represented regionals--all of which have taken huge paycuts just to maintain their existing flying (or marginally increase it).

Statistically speaking, if you are a regional airline pilot, it's becoming very difficult to argue that ALPA representation provides a substantive benefit to regional members. While correlation is not causation, I would argue that ALPA representation negatively affects regional airline pilots by placing them under the same umbrella as mainline MECs/national leadership, whose interests often run counter to the career interests of regional pilots.

Just two cents I figured I'd throw out there for discussion/consideration.

Horizon pilots received a pay raise without ALPA, they did it with a union though. QX pay rates are still higher then Skywest, and that is with better insurance, flight benefits, profit sharing (PBP), and retirement benefits. It is easy to ignore the facts to believe in your own version of reality. At the end of the day your "contract" that is to be voted on is as much of a legal document as toilet paper is. It can and will be flushed down the toilet at the will of skywest holdings. I dont agree with ALPA's or the IBT's actions over the last 10 years, but skywest holdings is the largest regional in the world, and their pilots should be united in their effort to further the profession. The revenue generated by your flying is much greater then the CPA agreements pay, and some day the Legacies will have to share more of the revenue, or bring the flying back in house. Unless you want to be paid B scale wages for the rest of your career.

Redbird611
01-12-2014, 07:31 PM
Psa didn't take a HUGE pay cut. They took a pay cap 12capt/4Fo with a $1 a hour raise when the 30 CRJ's are delivered. 30 CRJ's which isn't a "marginal" increase. It's a 60% increase in fleet size. This was a **** deal but if your going to call us out for voting in this crap please at least have your facts strait.

Are you kidding me? The 12/4 cap with pay freezes if declined a position with AA is a massive, massive concession. That is an industry shattering change that might have been resisted if it was just 9E in bankruptcy, but PSA validated that as a new industry norm voluntarily. PSA was not in imminent financial distress. Those CRJ's don't represent a 60% fleet increase because the 50-seaters are going to go away. PSA pilots sold out their peers for a chance at career advancement, pure and simple.

CaptKrunch
01-13-2014, 06:49 AM
Psa didn't take a HUGE pay cut. They took a pay cap 12capt/4Fo with a $1 a hour raise when the 30 CRJ's are delivered. 30 CRJ's which isn't a "marginal" increase. It's a 60% increase in fleet size. This was a **** deal but if your going to call us out for voting in this crap please at least have your facts strait.

Are you kidding me? The 12/4 cap with pay freezes if declined a position with AA is a massive, massive concession. That is an industry shattering change that might have been resisted if it was just 9E in bankruptcy, but PSA validated that as a new industry norm voluntarily. PSA was not in imminent financial distress. Those CRJ's don't represent a 60% fleet increase because the 50-seaters are going to go away. PSA pilots sold out their peers for a chance at career advancement, pure and simple.
Funny how I never said we didn't give concessions. I said it wasn't a HUGE pay cut. Second we haven't had any indication from the company that the 200's are going away before the leases run up in 2019. In fact we have been told they are staying. Even if they DO go away our fleet size will remain relatively the same but due to our pay being a blend between 200 and 700/900 everyone's pay would go up. Lastly you don't know PSA's financial status because Us Air keeps it hidden. We are nothing but a line item. We are told one year we are a huge money maker and the next that we are a huge drain. It all depends on what Doug wants the creditors to see. I have no problem being called out for voting in a bad deal. But again use facts not opinion or emotional arguments.

Nevets
01-13-2014, 07:01 AM
Psa didn't take a HUGE pay cut. They took a pay cap 12capt/4Fo with a $1 a hour raise when the 30 CRJ's are delivered. 30 CRJ's which isn't a "marginal" increase. It's a 60% increase in fleet size. This was a **** deal but if your going to call us out for voting in this crap please at least have your facts strait.

Doesn't your share of premiums also go up? That's a huge concession!


Quote:





Originally Posted by johnso29


Is the Skywest pilots agreement cheaper than the current ExpressJet contract?




Yes


Quote:





Originally Posted by johnso29


And if an aircraft freeze change savings equal or exceeds the pay raises, then wouldn't Skywest still be cheaper? And doesn't that provide management an ability to threaten transferring flying?




Yes, but neither the XJT TA nor the SKYW offer change that.


Quote:





Originally Posted by johnso29


You don't want two unhappy groups when it comes to whipsaw. So you get ExpressJet to take cuts, then you can cut Skywest pay. You can't cut Skywest pay before you cut ExpressJet pay.




Okay, but the cuts to ExpressJet don't take us below SkyWest costs. We would still be significantly more expensive under the TA than SkyWest, so how exactly would Inc be able to credibly whipsaw SkyWest into lower pay? They'd know that there is no threat of aircraft transfer to ExpressJet. If they intend to further turn the screws on ExpressJet why is the current TA offer above SkyWest compensation?

They fact that the Skywest pay proposal is still below the XJT TA keeps the whipsaw going. As long as one of the airlines is more expensive than the other (doesn't matter which one), they will always play one against the other. The ONLY what to eliminate this whipsaw is with one list. Unfortunately certain people don't want that.

bonesbrigade
01-13-2014, 07:15 AM
All things considered I find most SKW pilots to be good people and friendly. I've ridden their jumpseat many times going home and they are always talkative.... better yet, they don't give me any flack for our BK TA like prick Eagle pilots.

Redbird611
01-13-2014, 10:44 AM
Funny how I never said we didn't give concessions. I said it wasn't a HUGE pay cut. Second we haven't had any indication from the company that the 200's are going away before the leases run up in 2019. In fact we have been told they are staying.

Oh, so this wasn't about ensuring replacements for 50-seaters, but was rather pilots paying for growth airplanes? That makes the voluntary concessions even worse.

atrdriver
01-13-2014, 11:22 AM
Just for clarification, only about 4-500 out of 3260 pilots are getting a raise. For the other 2800 pilots, were getting around $300-400 for uniforms, medicals, and per diem. It won't even cover the increased cost of health insurance this year.

And the soon-to-be E70/E75 pilots will get all their soft pay at the higher rate. That's a pretty significant gain, especially with so many frames on order, don't you think?

Cruz5350
01-13-2014, 11:34 AM
Horizon pilots received a pay raise without ALPA, they did it with a union though. QX pay rates are still higher then Skywest, and that is with better insurance, flight benefits, profit sharing (PBP), and retirement benefits. It is easy to ignore the facts to believe in your own version of reality. At the end of the day your "contract" that is to be voted on is as much of a legal document as toilet paper is. It can and will be flushed down the toilet at the will of skywest holdings. I dont agree with ALPA's or the IBT's actions over the last 10 years, but skywest holdings is the largest regional in the world, and their pilots should be united in their effort to further the profession. The revenue generated by your flying is much greater then the CPA agreements pay, and some day the Legacies will have to share more of the revenue, or bring the flying back in house. Unless you want to be paid B scale wages for the rest of your career..............

8ballfreight
01-13-2014, 11:46 AM
Does anybody know why apc shows $36/hr 2nd year jet, but people are saying second year jet is $37.15 now. Where did this bump come from? Always been there or did a previous agreement dictate it? Or is none of this factual?

AZFlyn1
01-13-2014, 12:03 PM
Does anybody know why apc shows $36/hr 2nd year jet, but people are saying second year jet is $37.15 now. Where did this bump come from? Always been there or did a previous agreement dictate it? Or is none of this factual?

Not sure why it doesn't show but 2nd yr CRJ is $37.15...

Utah
01-13-2014, 12:36 PM
Does anybody know why apc shows $36/hr 2nd year jet, but people are saying second year jet is $37.15 now. Where did this bump come from? Always been there or did a previous agreement dictate it? Or is none of this factual?

The rates for SkyWest on this website are wrong. Search my post from yesterday for RJ rates for 2013/2014. They're in one of SkyWest threads.

Utah
01-13-2014, 12:40 PM
And the soon-to-be E70/E75 pilots will get all their soft pay at the higher rate. That's a pretty significant gain, especially with so many frames on order, don't you think?

That is one of the good things about the agreement. However, it will basically pay the same as what we currently have for the 900. Going beyond 2014, it should really help out. This year, the number of pilots that this will help is a very small number. And frankly most of them we're willing to bid an aircraft that didn't have an established pay rate -- so I'm not too concerned with them.

johnso29
01-13-2014, 01:08 PM
They fact that the Skywest pay proposal is still below the XJT TA keeps the whipsaw going. As long as one of the airlines is more expensive than the other (doesn't matter which one), they will always play one against the other. The ONLY what to eliminate this whipsaw is with one list. Unfortunately certain people don't want that.

Winner winner!! Chicken dinner!!!!!