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Aviator89
01-24-2014, 08:39 AM
So here is the situation, me and my coworkers are all CFI's, but work for a corporate flight department flying passengers. One of the local businessmen in the area just bought an airplane he is going to learn to train in. He wants us to do his primary training with him. Normally, this is no issue, he contacted us, we are not holding out to the public so if compensation is provided there is no legal issue. However, because making extra money on the side may create a conflict of interest with our primary job of flying for our employer. (who doesnt want to make extra cash, right?) My boss wants to find out if we can schedule flights and charge this guy through the company we work for. Basically if we charged him 25$ an hour, we would make an extra 25$ an hour. Our employer WOULD NOT BE MAKING A PROFIT AT ALL. That way if we have a trip for the company pop up, it takes priority no questions asked and no conflict of interest.
I personally dont feel any of us would neglect our primary jobs for an hour or two of Dual a week, but its an issue I am tasked with resolving. Unfortunately once a transaction between the new aircraft owner and our employer came into play, I am lost in terms of the laws involved. My gut feeling is, since instruction is being given, and a business is charging someone for it we need a operator certificate or flight school equivalent of one. Does this limit us to just cash on the side via "private carriage"? Any links or specific regs I can refer to would help. I need to show concrete evidence that what I found is actual law/regulation. Thanks!


rickair7777
01-24-2014, 09:03 AM
So here is the situation, me and my coworkers are all CFI's, but work for a corporate flight department flying passengers. One of the local businessmen in the area just bought an airplane he is going to learn to train in. He wants us to do his primary training with him. Normally, this is no issue, he contacted us, we are not holding out to the public so if compensation is provided there is no legal issue.

Sounds like flight instruction to me, should be legal.


However, because making extra money on the side may create a conflict of interest with our primary job of flying for our employer. (who doesnt want to make extra cash, right?) My boss wants to find out if we can schedule flights and charge this guy through the company we work for. Basically if we charged him 25$ an hour, we would make an extra 25$ an hour. Our employer WOULD NOT BE MAKING A PROFIT AT ALL. That way if we have a trip for the company pop up, it takes priority no questions asked and no conflict of interest.

If this is for CFI work, again no problem at all. You are allowed to hold out as a CFI.

Where this might become an issue is if the guy wanted to start doing regular trips. The first few times it could be legit instruction if the guy is working on ratings, or getting familiar with an airplane, route, or area.

But if it turns into frequent recurring trips where he's basically paying you to fly the airplane that might be questionable if you try to log it all as dual given. But even then he could legitimately hire you to fly his own airplane, and you can hold out all you want to fly an airplane provided by the customer. That's the key...if the customer provides the airplane, he can hire anyone to fly it, and pilots can hold out for the opportunity.

Holding out and common carriage only become an issue when the customer is paying someone else to provide the airplane...for point A to point B travel that requires a 135 cert (121 if you do it on a scheduled basis).


My gut feeling is, since instruction is being given, and a business is charging someone for it we need a operator certificate or flight school equivalent of one.

There is no "operator certificate" required for schools or instructors teaching under part 61. You just go do it, simple as that. 141 schools do require a certificate.

Look at FAR 119.1 (e). This lists all of the activities which are exempt from certification requirements and holding out restrictions. Flight instruction is one of the exempt activities...you can just go do it (under 61).

Aviator89
01-24-2014, 09:15 AM
Sounds like flight instruction to me, should be legal.



If this is for CFI work, again no problem at all. You are allowed to hold out as a CFI.

Where this might become an issue is if the guy wanted to start doing regular trips. The first few times it could be legit instruction if the guy is working on ratings, or getting familiar with an airplane, route, or area.

But if it turns into frequent recurring trips where he's basically paying you to fly the airplane that might be questionable if you try to log it all as dual given. But even then he could legitimately hire you to fly his own airplane, and you can hold out all you want to fly an airplane provided by the customer. That's the key...if the customer provides the airplane, he can hire anyone to fly it, and pilots can hold out for the opportunity.

Holding out and common carriage only become an issue when the customer is paying someone else to provide the airplane...for point A to point B travel that requires a 135 cert (121 if you do it on a scheduled basis).




There is no "operator certificate" required for schools or instructors teaching under part 61. You just go do it, simple as that. 141 schools do require a certificate.

Look at FAR 119.1 (e). This lists all of the activities which are exempt from certification requirements and holding out restrictions. Flight instruction is one of the exempt activities...you can just go do it (under 61).

Thanks! I guess in my CFI training I had never learned that CFI's are allowed to hold out. Makes sense though, plenty of cfi's advertise themselves. :)


germb74
01-30-2014, 09:07 PM
Yes, this is flight training conducted under Part 91--nobody cares about whether or not you're holding out if he's seeking flight training.

On the other hand, if he's seeking air transportation (no interest in training), then you have to look at things like Ops Specs, Operator Certificates, drug testing, who has operational control, and will have to talk to someone much more versed than I on such subjects.

Intent here is a big deal too. If the FAA feels like you're attempting to game the system by logging training flights when that's not the underlying intent, you may be setting yourself up for trouble (particularly if your employer becomes a party to the transaction).

germb74
01-30-2014, 09:10 PM
I missed the part about this being HIS airplane. Yes, you still fall under Part 91, so long as the guy isn't selling "tickets" to the public on flights you're operating.

Bumper
01-31-2014, 06:04 AM
Its part 91 instruction so you are okay. I am curious as to why your current boss wants to get in the middle of it all when you know your primary job is through him. If he is not making money why bother ? Does he have other reasons ? If it goes through his company then your boss is just increasing his liabliity with no compensation. What type of plane did the guy buy ? Is it something your boss would interested in in a lease back ?

Ewfflyer
02-19-2014, 04:27 PM
No reason to schedule it with your company. Sounds like someone wants control. Unless your employment agreement says you can't do it, they can' th old it against you as long as it's on your own time.

Simply put, is this worth the effort and risk to your primary job?

Aviator89
02-21-2014, 11:23 AM
No reason to schedule it with your company. Sounds like someone wants control. Unless your employment agreement says you can't do it, they can' th old it against you as long as it's on your own time.

Simply put, is this worth the effort and risk to your primary job?

I got it figured out. Its fine. And no its not worth it if it would hurt my primary job. But scheduling it with the company wasnt my idea...control . Sounds about right.



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