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View Full Version : 3 man crew over 60 rule


Tango 6
02-23-2014, 01:20 AM
Is it legal for a three man crew to operate in international operations when two of the crew are over 60


Twin Wasp
02-23-2014, 04:34 PM
The reg says junior would have to be on the flight deck the entire time which sort of defeats the idea of a heavy crew.

Tango 6
02-24-2014, 02:40 AM
The reg says junior would have to be on the flight deck the entire time which sort of defeats the idea of a heavy crew.

OK thanks do you have the reference


Twin Wasp
02-24-2014, 08:59 AM
121.383(d) says


(2) Use the services of any person as a pilot in command in operations under this part between the United States and another country, or in operations between other countries, if that person has reached his or her 60th birthday unless there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.


But to really nitpick, if the the PIC is younger than 60 but the two SICs are over 60 it would seem to be OK.

Tango 6
02-26-2014, 02:17 PM
121.383(d) says


(2) Use the services of any person as a pilot in command in operations under this part between the United States and another country, or in operations between other countries, if that person has reached his or her 60th birthday unless there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.


But to really nitpick, if the the PIC is younger than 60 but the two SICs are over 60 it would seem to be OK.

Thanks.

What I'm getting at is that there needs to be a person in the crew under 60 assigned to the flight deck crew which I understand but what does not seem so clear is if that the person needs only to occupy a seat for the critical phases of flight TO/LD under 10,000 ect. Otherwise not required to be upfront. The reg doesn't seem to be very specific

Twin Wasp
02-26-2014, 04:17 PM
You want the FAA to be clear about something, come on.

True, there is no definition of "flight deck crewmember." But you're already a "flight crewmember" if you're a pilot assigned duty during the flight. And there is a difference between "duty" and "flight deck duty" in some of the duty time regs. I think it would be safe to pull that distinction over to this reg and say there should always (not just T/O and landing) someone under 60 up front.

*I've done years and years of heavy crews and I understand there are times when someone says, "I'm doing OK, I'll let him sleep a bit longer" and you don't get the times broken down in perfect thirds or quarters. But I think you do need to able to show when the plane blocks out that you could rotate through the seats with a youngster up front all the time.

iceman49
02-27-2014, 07:06 AM
Just 1 pilot under 60 has to be in either the left or right seat when taking off or landing at an international port.

joepilot
03-01-2014, 01:30 PM
There are some exceptions to this rule. For instance, at "my house", an over age 60 check airman can give an IOE to an over 60 pilot being checked out. There still does have to be an under 60 pilot on the crew, but in this case the two over 60 guys can be in the seat for takeoff and landing.

Joe

FoxHunter
03-06-2014, 01:44 PM
I was an over 60 Captain awarded a around the world trip with a F/O also over age 60. The ICAO standard was that they recommend that only one pilot age 60 or above should be in the left or right seat during a critical phase of flight. It was optional not mandatory.

The FAA had a different take on the issue published on their web site. Their notice said the air carrier and PIC were required to make sure two pilots age 60 or above were not in the front seats below 10,000. This was stricter than ICAO. I emailed the F/O and told him I thought there may be a problem. I emailed the Chief Pilot plus anyone else I thought may have some concerns. I was told, No problem because the relief pilot was under age 60. I sent the Chief Pilot a copy of the FAA position plus a link to the FAA page on the FAA.GOV web site. Again the reply was that there was no problem flying the trip as scheduled with two age 60+ pilots in the front seats for take off and landing. It turns out the F/O was able to trade trips so the issue was resolved. FedEx a Flight Management had ruled, probably with the concurrence of FedEx Legal, and the FAA that it was legal.

I flew a number of domestic flights, including Honolulu, Anchorage, and San Juan with a age 60+ F/O with a two man crew. There never has been any age restriction for domestic flying.

iceman49
03-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Keep hearing this restriction is going away later in the year.

Thedude
03-12-2014, 08:55 PM
I was an over 60 Captain awarded a around the world trip with a F/O also over age 60.

Of course both of you should have retired by now.

Tango 6
03-13-2014, 03:49 AM
Iíve seen spry captains over 60 and also ones that arenít quite sure whatís going on. The later rely heavily on the FO and usually treat them badly to make up for their weakness. This causes a breakdown in CRM and a new or weak FO may or may not have the skills to compensate. Not sure what flying International v/s domestic should have to do with any of it, perhaps we care more about what other people think of us. My opinion only

maddogmax
03-13-2014, 10:03 AM
Thanks.

What I'm getting at is that there needs to be a person in the crew under 60 assigned to the flight deck crew which I understand but what does not seem so clear is if that the person needs only to occupy a seat for the critical phases of flight TO/LD under 10,000 ect. Otherwise not required to be upfront. The reg doesn't seem to be very specific

The requirement to have one under 60 pilot in a control seat for TO/LND only applies to international operations. Two over 60 guys can fly 6 legs a day domestically with no restrictions. Doesn't make sense.

FoxHunter
03-14-2014, 06:02 PM
Keep hearing this restriction is going away later in the year.

If ICAO drops the over/under rule it automatically changes for US carriers. That is part of the law passed by Congress.

FoxHunter
03-14-2014, 06:08 PM
The requirement to have one under 60 pilot in a control seat for TO/LND only applies to international operations. Two over 60 guys can fly 6 legs a day domestically with no restrictions. Doesn't make sense.
The over/under rule only applies to international because of the ICAO standard. ICAO took the position that the rule was not necessary but adopted it because a couple of countries wanted it.

aviatorhi
03-16-2014, 11:18 PM
(2) Use the services of any person as a pilot in command in operations under this part between the United States and another country, or in operations between other countries, if that person has reached his or her 60th birthday unless there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.

Since I want to be pedantic, it doesn't specify where anyone needs to sit...

So how' about two guys who are over 60 and an FE who's younger, but also qualified in the aircraft as an SIC. Where's that grey area fit in?

maddogmax
03-17-2014, 12:56 PM
Since I want to be pedantic, it doesn't specify where anyone needs to sit...

So how' about two guys who are over 60 and an FE who's younger, but also qualified in the aircraft as an SIC. Where's that grey area fit in?

No grey area. One of the pilots in a "control seat" has to be under 60. As mentioned earlier, this may change soon.

aviatorhi
03-17-2014, 01:14 PM
No grey area. One of the pilots in a "control seat" has to be under 60. As mentioned earlier, this may change soon.

Where in 121.383 does it say "control seat"?

Additionally, an FE is a part of the "flight deck crew".

And I'm not trying to say that's a reasonable work around to the reg. I'm saying that the regs are poorly written in the first place.

FoxHunter
03-19-2014, 06:29 PM
Where in 121.383 does it say "control seat"?

Additionally, an FE is a part of the "flight deck crew".

And I'm not trying to say that's a reasonable work around to the reg. I'm saying that the regs are poorly written in the first place.

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/age65_qa.pdf

aviatorhi
03-19-2014, 07:25 PM
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/age65_qa.pdf

In the very document you've quoted we have a REQUIREMENT:

...that assigned flight deck crew must include one pilot who is licensed, current, qualified, appropriately rated for all phases of flight, and younger than age 60.

And we have a SUGGESTION:

However, ICAO and the FAA suggest that a pilot under age 60 be at the controls...

In the regulation there is no requirement. As I said earlier, I wouldn't consider it a valid work around as it's not something worth fighting the FAA on in the event an inspector had issue with it. But it is interesting to note that there is no written requirement (a suggestion is not a requirement, if it was a requirement it would say required rather than suggest[s]) to be at the controls.