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View Full Version : APA support of Eagle/Envoy


Maverick
03-01-2014, 05:21 AM
At Eagle we are in the middle of a grievance for Eagle/Enovy restricting the flow of our guys to new hire positions at AA. One of the possible solutions proposed and agreeable to 3 out of the 4 parties is just to give AA seniority numbers to the group of 824 pilots part of the last grievance. However it is APA that is the only group unwilling to move forward with this. Other than you guys wanting to get your squadron buddies hired, what is the problem with granting seniority numbers to the bottom of the list for the 824 guys that will be at AA no matter what eventually. It protects fellow AAG pilots from taking even more of a hit with career progression instead of some GO-Jet mesa Skywest PSA ... pilot getting hired as part of the 50/50 ratio which is not happening for us currently so we are losing even more seniority than we already have. Just to give you guys an idea that the bottom of that 824 if they continue to restrict it to 20/month instead of 50% and AA increase class size up to 60 and US airways continues to hire that pilot could end up over 800 numbers junior than where he should have been had the company honored the 50% ratio. That has a huge impact on QOL and career earning. All the 824 guys will have been part of AMR for over 15 years by the time they flow, every single one of them. So why is APA against this?


Enterprise
03-01-2014, 05:48 AM
Can't you call your LEC chair and get the answers you are seeking?

Maverick
03-01-2014, 05:58 AM
I'm putting this out there because the APA pilots I talk to say they are all for it and say they thought their MEC was as well. So this is a case of rank and file not knowing the position of their MEC. If the Amerucan pilots are truly supportive if the Eagle guys then contacting APA's MEC and asking for answers may go along way. I believe the real background is APA is willing but they are wanting the EMB-175 brought back to the mainline.


bassslayer
03-01-2014, 06:01 AM
Something similar should be in effect at PSA. Those guys are interviewing, being offered actual class dates, but are now being held by PSA due to staffing. Airways is running 2 classes a month, plus with AA hiring, those guys/gals are losing tons of seniority.

Two-percent
03-01-2014, 06:34 AM
Wow, 50 percent of AA classes are supposed to consist of Eagle-flos?
Not good with public math: By what year would the last Eagle flow? Do some of the 824 apply to other carriers? Can an 824 apply outside of the original agreement to say, Airways and AA?

drinksonme
03-01-2014, 07:55 AM
I believe the real background is APA is willing but they are wanting the EMB-175 brought back to the mainline.

I doubt this is the reason. Totally speculating here, but this an SLI and DFR issue in my opinion. Giving the 824 Eagle/Envoy pilots a seniority number today, opens up Pandora's Box tomorrow. How would they be ranked on the new list as they come over if given a number today? In front of all pilots hired tomorrow and beyond at AA/US, not just an AMR (formally) company? Imagine the last 824 person coming over in 5 years, but then going ahead of all pilot in class before them over the last 5 years, that would be an ugly dispute for APA. While I agree that the hold back of Eagle/Envoy pilots is flat out wrong, and probably calculated as punishment for rejecting the API, a seniority number only created another sub-set of pilots who require representation during SLI. Having to deal with USAPA is APA's biggest issue today. I know that sounds harsh, but after USAPA's actions, APA has to stay focused on the SLI, the requirements of the MOU and MB, arguing their case in a lawsuit as of yesterday, the NMB, and ultimately Single Carrier Status. That's a lot of relevant pressing issues today. Any further issue are put to the back burner, including the plight of Eagle/Envoy pilots.

Saabs
03-01-2014, 09:21 AM
Don't forget everyone who has a kid or friend they want to get hired. I know that alone leaves giving the envoy pilots numbers a bad taste in the American guys mouths. And is it 50% of the new American classes post integration? That's already a ton of envoy guys per year.
Not saying I'm against it, just saying I don't think it will happen.

Enterprise
03-01-2014, 10:08 AM
I believe the real background is APA is willing but they are wanting the EMB-175 brought back to the mainline.


You are getting warmer.

Keeping the 175's at Eagle gives the company every reason in the world not to flow you up to mainline. Who will they replace you with if you flow? Wouldn't you rather be flying the 175 at mainline rather than Eagle?

sailingfun
03-01-2014, 10:12 AM
You are getting warmer.

Keeping the 175's at Eagle gives the company every reason in the world not to flow you up to mainline. Who will they replace you with if you flow? Wouldn't you rather be flying the 175 at mainline rather than Eagle?

This is not really a APA decision. It is a management decision. They maintain the seniority list not the union. What does management say?

chignutsak
03-01-2014, 10:19 AM
APA would like the aircraft for sure - the pilots, not so much. The majors have plenty of willing bodies and don't need a flow. As already stated, there is a mess SLI-wise to iron out.

Errbus
03-01-2014, 10:22 AM
Why would APA support Eagle? They're another union and they undercut AA mainline jobs flying AA mainline passengers. I don't see a reason for it, Eagle pilots haven't done anything for APA and aren't a part of APA.

flybywire44
03-01-2014, 10:22 AM
What incentive is there for APA to give mainline seniority numbers to regional pilots?

Some feel that there is a long adversarial history between APA and AE that resulted in many AA pilots having their career expectations demolished. Ironically, some AE pilots feel the same way.

I'm still shocked the White House forces APA to outsource regional jets to AE. Imagine if APA had in-sourced this flying initially, and all of AE pilots were hired directly by APA.

meyers9163
03-01-2014, 11:37 AM
Get a number when you show to class..... PSA/PDT and AE are all in the same boat.... Unfortunately it's not as simplistic as you're implying.....

The Drizzle
03-01-2014, 11:39 AM
Queen - I Want It All - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pm4fQRl72k)

vyperdriver
03-01-2014, 12:25 PM
Why would APA support Eagle? They're another union and they undercut AA mainline jobs flying AA mainline passengers. I don't see a reason for it, Eagle pilots haven't done anything for APA and aren't a part of APA. Really? How about the 1400 flights per day and all of the paying passengers we bring in to sit in the back of your airplanes so you earn a salary. If your being sarcastic, pardon my lack of humor it was a 0400 start today in order to fly passengers, along with a divert so they could fly on American jets. Don't forget we serve the same empire. Other than these thoughts...nice post, I enjoyed your humor, don't quit your day job though. :)

Enterprise
03-01-2014, 01:07 PM
Really? How about the 1400 flights per day and all of the paying passengers we bring in to sit in the back of your airplanes so you earn a salary.


Actually, a few thousand of our pilots were furloughed and didn't "earn a salary" because their flying was given to a group willing to fly for peanuts.

How ironic that you may be undercut and lose your job to PSA w----s that are willing to do it for even less.

So thanks for all you "bring."

flybywire44
03-01-2014, 01:25 PM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Errbus


Why would APA support Eagle? They're another union and they undercut AA mainline jobs flying AA mainline passengers. I don't see a reason for it, Eagle pilots haven't done anything for APA and aren't a part of APA.




Really? How about the 1400 flights per day and all of the paying passengers we bring in to sit in the back of your airplanes so you earn a salary. If your being sarcastic, pardon my lack of humor it was a 0400 start today in order to fly passengers, along with a divert so they could fly on American jets. Don't forget we serve the same empire. Other than these thoughts...nice post, I enjoyed your humor, don't quit your day job though.

Your feelings are understandable Vyper. It can be hard to remain patient in the regionals, but they do create jobs that otherwise would have never existed. The outsourcing/loss of mainline jobs was certainly a benefit for me when I graduated from college!!!

The original flow through and seniority numbers given to AE were not negotiated because AE held any entitlement. The US government forced APA to give jet aircraft to Eagle. This may explain some animosity between APA and AE.

APA may respond to an incentive before an entitlement.

Hoss
03-01-2014, 01:31 PM
Do you really expect the APA to support the Eagle/Envoy pilots? Good luck with that. Where do I begin?

- Eagle expanding and taking mainline flying while some AA guys were furloughed for in excess of ten years.
- the Eagle MEC doing anything and everything to not only prevent a large number of TWA guys from flowing back, but to also ensure that those that did flow back were eventually booted from the left seat.
- Lousy (and some would say unfair) treatment of the flowbacks while in training and while flying the line.
- The Eagle MEC suing and winning a court case allowing Eagle flow-ups to begin training at AA BEFORE several hundred that still remained furloughed. This delayed the recall for several months.
- Someone from the Eagle MEC sending a letter to the president of AMR several years ago with an offer to fly 100 seat equipment for "reasonable" pay rates.
- Many at Eagle salivating at the thought of getting larger equipment (to perhaps include the airbus) during the AMR bankruptcy process.

Sorry, I for one, cannot see my union (the APA) doing anything to help Eagle/Envoy after what has transpired over the past dozen years or so.

Mason32
03-01-2014, 01:50 PM
I'm putting this out there because the APA pilots I talk to say they are all for it and say they thought their MEC was as well. So this is a case of rank and file not knowing the position of their MEC. If the Amerucan pilots are truly supportive if the Eagle guys then contacting APA's MEC and asking for answers may go along way. I believe the real background is APA is willing but they are wanting the EMB-175 brought back to the mainline.

I do not think you are explaining yourself correctly; or they're not fully understanding what you are saying. We have no problem issuing every single Eagle pilot numbers, but we want all aircraft and pilots on this property to do it. Issuing a block of numbers to people not on our property isn't going to happen again. It caused 13 years of arbitrations and lawsuits. No thanks. Further, why would we want to create more issues by having two new hires in the same class, and one goes on reserve while the other goes to holding a line... Neither of them having ever paid union dues, been a member, or been on our property before. Sounds like a reverse B-Scale to me. Not interested in opening another can of worms.

QuagmireGiggity
03-01-2014, 02:39 PM
Wow, 50 percent of AA classes are supposed to consist of Eagle-flos?
Not good with public math: By what year would the last Eagle flow? Do some of the 824 apply to other carriers? Can an 824 apply outside of the original agreement to say, Airways and AA?Well... at 20 a month it's 240 per year. The wording says it is suppose to be 50% but can be metered at 20. We believe we will win the 50% grievance and poster merger it will be a full 50% of combined AA classes. The grievance was only filed in anticipation of them violating the 50% . They haven't actually violated that part yet.
They are saying they are going to meter at 20 a month but have actually done a little better than 50% so far. We are watching the class sizes as it say 50% in aggregate over time. So we will see. Yes you can apply off the street and some are getting hired.

QuagmireGiggity
03-01-2014, 02:42 PM
I doubt this is the reason. Totally speculating here, but this an SLI and DFR issue in my opinion. Giving the 824 Eagle/Envoy pilots a seniority number today, opens up Pandora's Box tomorrow. How would they be ranked on the new list as they come over if given a number today? In front of all pilots hired tomorrow and beyond at AA/US, not just an AMR (formally) company? Imagine the last 824 person coming over in 5 years, but then going ahead of all pilot in class before them over the last 5 years, that would be an ugly dispute for APA. While I agree that the hold back of Eagle/Envoy pilots is flat out wrong, and probably calculated as punishment for rejecting the API, a seniority number only created another sub-set of pilots who require representation during SLI. Having to deal with USAPA is APA's biggest issue today. I know that sounds harsh, but after USAPA's actions, APA has to stay focused on the SLI, the requirements of the MOU and MB, arguing their case in a lawsuit as of yesterday, the NMB, and ultimately Single Carrier Status. That's a lot of relevant pressing issues today. Any further issue are put to the back burner, including the plight of Eagle/Envoy pilots.
Our old flow through worked the way you described. People got their AA numbers after two years as CA on the jet. We had 400+ people show up to AA that already had their seniority numbers. The trade off was AA guys could flow back. And that's the reason there won't be numbers issued like that again. The APA would want something in return.

rlkrutenat
03-01-2014, 02:44 PM
Do you really expect the APA to support the Eagle/Envoy pilots? Good luck with that. Where do I begin?

Hoss, I understand completely your points but would like to offer some context. With full disclosure, I am a sixteen year Eagle check airman starting AA class in May. I've served as committee chair for Comm and Training since 2008 and i am familiar with letter 3/supplementW.

-Eagle expanding and taking mainline flying while some AA guys were furloughed for in excess of ten years.

This is true and very unfortunate. This was the "RJ decade" that was played out by all mainline managements to the detriment of every major airline pilot.

- the Eagle MEC doing anything and everything to not only prevent a large number of TWA guys from flowing back, but to also ensure that those that did flow back were eventually booted from the left seat.

The Eagle MEC did everything possible to defend Eagle pilots rights under Letter 3. This was a full time job as APA, AA, and AE were all creatively reinventing their obligation to Letter3/SuppW. APA played quite a sharpshooter role in this. I didn't take it personally. That's what unions do - they look out for their membership. But, no one was "booted" from a seat unfairly. Flowbacks held their seat under the seniority provisions of Letter 3/Suppw.

- Lousy (and some would say unfair) treatment of the flowbacks while in training and while flying the line.

It is probable that some flow backs experienced the "2%" element of our check airman cadre. But then again, all Eagle pilots experience this at one time or another. After a full investigation, APA itself concluded that there was no improper treatment of flow backs in training. It was determined that they were mostly unprepared for the high intensity training at Eagle. No joke - it really is. I did hear of some very isolated juvenile behavior on the line. But, I flew the line with many flow backs and I can tell you that most every Eagle pilot soon gained respect for our AA colleagues.

- The Eagle MEC suing and winning a court case allowing Eagle flow-ups to begin training at AA BEFORE several hundred that still remained furloughed. This delayed the recall for several months.

"If a seniority number doesn't mean a seniority number then what does it mean?" The arbitrator agreed.

- Someone from the Eagle MEC sending a letter to the president of AMR several years ago with an offer to fly 100 seat equipment for "reasonable" pay rates.

There will always be a few morons in every pilot group.

- Many at Eagle salivating at the thought of getting larger equipment (to perhaps include the airbus) during the AMR bankruptcy process.

2500 out of 2800 Eagle pilots will tell you.. "Put everything at AA - just take us with you."



Having said all this, my intent is to not perpetuate a ****ing contest. It is only to say that there are always three sides to a story. We are all very foolish if we allow airline managements turn us into cavemen bludgeoning each other over and over with these endless arguments.

Now more than ever, it is high time that ALL pilots - whoever wherever and whatever they fly - work together to bring some dignity and honor back to this profession.

Rich

QuagmireGiggity
03-01-2014, 02:48 PM
Why would APA support Eagle? They're another union and they undercut AA mainline jobs flying AA mainline passengers. I don't see a reason for it, Eagle pilots haven't done anything for APA and aren't a part of APA.
That's one way to look at it but if you can't beat them you have to join them. And during the 1990s the APA did not have enough leverage due to market forces to force management to bring "ALL" flying to the mainline. Simply too many pilots at the regionals. So the next best thing is a somewhat quasi group that allowed furloughed APA pilots to go to Eagle. Management can still get away with having the flying split regional /mainline. Hopefully in the coming years the leverage of the pilots will force these airlines to be merged as one.

QuagmireGiggity
03-01-2014, 02:51 PM
APA would like the aircraft for sure - the pilots, not so much. The majors have plenty of willing bodies and don't need a flow. As already stated, there is a mess SLI-wise to iron out.
That depends on who you talk to. Certainly there are plenty of people begrudged by Eagle. And I understand why but there seems to be more people I meet from AA that want to work out a deal to simply merge these groups.
And I don't mean DOH . .. years ago we had a group of loonies at Eagle going around talking about getting DOH. Every airline has it's extremist.

lolwut
03-01-2014, 05:15 PM
That depends on who you talk to. Certainly there are plenty of people begrudged by Eagle. And I understand why but there seems to be more people I meet from AA that want to work out a deal to simply merge these groups.
And I don't mean DOH . .. years ago we had a group of loonies at Eagle going around talking about getting DOH. Every airline has it's extremist.

Eagle pilots would be lucky to be stapled to the bottom of the list.

They're no deserving of those jobs than any other pilot. Maybe even less so, at least other pilots have to interview, compete, and prove their worth to get a job at AA. An Eagle pilot given a job at AA doesn't have to do any of that.

Maverick
03-01-2014, 06:41 PM
Your right 15 years flying for AMR spending 10 years in the right seat while other regionals had 2 yr CA upgrades allowing them to get PIC time means we haven't paid our dues like them. Unless your a former intern it's gonna be real hard to get hired off the street from Eagle as AAG doesn't want to pull more guys from Eagle than they are required to thru the flow. So how is it fair that a 10000 hr eagle CA with no failures and lots of internal recs gets passed over for a guy with half as much experience and years in the industry. AA has my training records personnel file and attendance record. They know who they are getting. They have already got rid of the few they didn't want to flow thru various methods. Those few are now on the street. You have to remember that when all of us were hired we were given a seniority number when we finished IOE as jet captains. We understand outside things stopped that from happening but many came here 14-15 years ago for that reason and are now wanting what we deserve.

PilotJ3
03-01-2014, 06:44 PM
Your right 15 years flying for AMR spending 10 years in the right seat while other regionals had 2 yr CA upgrades allowing them to get PIC time means we haven't paid our dues like them. Unless your a former intern it's gonna be real hard to get hired off the street from Eagle as AAG doesn't want to pull more guys from Eagle than they are required to thru the flow. So how is it fair that a 10000 hr eagle CA with no failures and lots of internal recs gets passed over for a guy with half as much experience and years in the industry. AA has my training records personnel file and attendance record. They know who they are getting. They have already got rid of the few they didn't want to flow thru various methods. Those few are now on the street. You have to remember that when all of us were hired we were given a seniority number when we finished IOE as jet captains. We understand outside things stopped that from happening but many came here 14-15 years ago for that reason and are now wanting what we deserve.

You forget that our training is harder than other regionals and even mainline.

drinksonme
03-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Our old flow through worked the way you described. People got their AA numbers after two years as CA on the jet. We had 400+ people show up to AA that already had their seniority numbers. The trade off was AA guys could flow back. And that's the reason there won't be numbers issued like that again. The APA would want something in return.

I worked at Eagle for 9 months in a passed life, and understand the set-up then and now. I fully agree with your comment. The reason some got numbers is because of the FLOWBACK option. That's gone now, so no numbers. It's tit for tat, and I think the only way seniority numbers come back to Eagle is the FLOWBACK option coming back to APA pilots. Ask Eagle guys how much they want that again. Those days and agreements are gone, and believe that's actually better for all. Prior to 9/11 I think both thought it was in their favor and a great idea. One side gets a job at AA with one AMR interview, the other gets a form of "furlough" protection. After 9/11, the unintended consequences became clear.

NC3rd
03-01-2014, 07:16 PM
Your right 15 years flying for AMR spending 10 years in the right seat while other regionals had 2 yr CA upgrades allowing them to get PIC time means we haven't paid our dues like them. Unless your a former intern it's gonna be real hard to get hired off the street from Eagle as AAG doesn't want to pull more guys from Eagle than they are required to thru the flow. So how is it fair that a 10000 hr eagle CA with no failures and lots of internal recs gets passed over for a guy with half as much experience and years in the industry. AA has my training records personnel file and attendance record. They know who they are getting. They have already got rid of the few they didn't want to flow thru various methods. Those few are now on the street. You have to remember that when all of us were hired we were given a seniority number when we finished IOE as jet captains. We understand outside things stopped that from happening but many came here 14-15 years ago for that reason and are now wanting what we deserve.

Eagle pilots' sense of entitlement is misplaced. How many pilots went to regionals and spent far longer time there then they had hoped, or weren't captains when they were told it would be a quick upgrade? Eagle pilots had the chance to leave find employment at a major on your own accord, but chose not to, and hoped they would be able to stay safely where they were and one would be given to them. RJ Captains with thousands of hours and no failures are a dime a dozen and doesn't make you more special than anyone else. Eagle is a regional airline just like many others, and its only some of their pilots who think they are "AA" already.

eaglefly
03-01-2014, 08:46 PM
Eagle pilots would be lucky to be stapled to the bottom of the list.

They're no deserving of those jobs than any other pilot. Maybe even less so, at least other pilots have to interview, compete, and prove their worth to get a job at AA. An Eagle pilot given a job at AA doesn't have to do any of that.

That's pure horses#%t. Most of us know that the interview process is flawed and plenty of marginal pilots slip through just as many good candidates miss the mark. The interview itself can only give a snapshot of a candidate and it's a brief exercise most have practiced (many through formal companies that sell this service), thus one can learn the "gouge" of how to look good in the interview, but that can mask the "real" person. I know as I used to interview prospective job applicants for a market research firm in a previous pre-airline pilot life. Add to that the fact that many airlines don't even do a simulator evaluation and thus it's tough to really see a candidate perform their job.

On the other hand, when AA gets a flow, they have direct knowledge of their training environment performance, their line performance, evaluation by their supervisors on reputation, interaction with co-workers, their supervisor and attendance history, etc. and this is all direct knowledge, not 3rd party hearsay or data. It's also a broad representation over a decade or even two decades or more. I would argue that AA is able to vet a flow-thru far more thoroughly and accurately, then the potentially spotty and sometimes omissive information they get about strangers applying for employment from outside sources. The downside though is that AA must accept the small percentage of flows that are in fact, less then desirable candidates with known issues.

Of course, everyone still has to hack new-hire training and the flows are no exception. Every airline has pilots that are known nimrods among their fellow pilots and virtually all of these eight-balls were hired in the traditional manner which simply proves the point that the interview/selection process is just as flawed as anything else including flow-thru mechanisms.

You've belched this crap before and clearly you have an ax to grind and it's too bad you've allowed your personal biases to cloud your perceptions and objectivity.

JohnGardner
03-02-2014, 04:42 AM
Your right 15 years flying for AMR spending 10 years in the right seat while other regionals had 2 yr CA upgrades allowing them to get PIC time means we haven't paid our dues like them. Unless your a former intern it's gonna be real hard to get hired off the street from Eagle as AAG doesn't want to pull more guys from Eagle than they are required to thru the flow. So how is it fair that a 10000 hr eagle CA with no failures and lots of internal recs gets passed over for a guy with half as much experience and years in the industry. AA has my training records personnel file and attendance record. They know who they are getting. They have already got rid of the few they didn't want to flow thru various methods. Those few are now on the street. You have to remember that when all of us were hired we were given a seniority number when we finished IOE as jet captains. We understand outside things stopped that from happening but many came here 14-15 years ago for that reason and are now wanting what we deserve.

Thanks. when I read your OP as it was reposted on the lounge, I asked the question who your source was for information regarding an ongoing grievance and resolution. that thread was taken down. this post makes it clear though, so thanks for posting it. I doubt they are going to appreciate being outed by you. you guys are simply unbelievable.

The Drizzle
03-02-2014, 04:47 AM
...it's too bad you've allowed your personal biases to cloud your perceptions and objectivity.

Sweet, delicious irony.

Eagle pilots' sense of entitlement is misplaced. How many pilots went to regionals and spent far longer time there then they had hoped, or weren't captains when they were told it would be a quick upgrade? Eagle pilots had the chance to leave find employment at a major on your own accord, but chose not to, and hoped they would be able to stay safely where they were and one would be given to them. RJ Captains with thousands of hours and no failures are a dime a dozen and doesn't make you more special than anyone else. Eagle is a regional airline just like many others, and its only some of their pilots who think they are "AA" already.

Add another poster's assertion that they've been carrying AA passengers and that eagle brings in financial benefit. What about TSA and CHQ pilots? They flew AA passengers with an excellent record and lower cost to AMR. Since they may have contributed more to AMR's bottom line per passenger shouldn't we be rewarding them with free class spots?

This whole thread reeks of being handed a briefcase full of money and complaining the clasps are too difficult to open for your tastes.

eaglefly
03-02-2014, 05:47 AM
Sweet, delicious irony.


Could you elaborate on the proclaimation of this tasty tidbit ?

D B Cooper
03-02-2014, 11:42 AM
Hoss, I understand completely your points but would like to offer some context. With full disclosure, I am a sixteen year Eagle check airman starting AA class in May. I've served as committee chair for Comm and Training since 2008 and i am familiar with letter 3/supplementW.

-Eagle expanding and taking mainline flying while some AA guys were furloughed for in excess of ten years.

This is true and very unfortunate. This was the "RJ decade" that was played out by all mainline managements to the detriment of every major airline pilot.

- the Eagle MEC doing anything and everything to not only prevent a large number of TWA guys from flowing back, but to also ensure that those that did flow back were eventually booted from the left seat.

The Eagle MEC did everything possible to defend Eagle pilots rights under Letter 3. This was a full time job as APA, AA, and AE were all creatively reinventing their obligation to Letter3/SuppW. APA played quite a sharpshooter role in this. I didn't take it personally. That's what unions do - they look out for their membership. But, no one was "booted" from a seat unfairly. Flowbacks held their seat under the seniority provisions of Letter 3/Suppw.

- Lousy (and some would say unfair) treatment of the flowbacks while in training and while flying the line.

It is probable that some flow backs experienced the "2%" element of our check airman cadre. But then again, all Eagle pilots experience this at one time or another. After a full investigation, APA itself concluded that there was no improper treatment of flow backs in training. It was determined that they were mostly unprepared for the high intensity training at Eagle. No joke - it really is. I did hear of some very isolated juvenile behavior on the line. But, I flew the line with many flow backs and I can tell you that most every Eagle pilot soon gained respect for our AA colleagues.

- The Eagle MEC suing and winning a court case allowing Eagle flow-ups to begin training at AA BEFORE several hundred that still remained furloughed. This delayed the recall for several months.

"If a seniority number doesn't mean a seniority number then what does it mean?" The arbitrator agreed.

- Someone from the Eagle MEC sending a letter to the president of AMR several years ago with an offer to fly 100 seat equipment for "reasonable" pay rates.

There will always be a few morons in every pilot group.

- Many at Eagle salivating at the thought of getting larger equipment (to perhaps include the airbus) during the AMR bankruptcy process.

2500 out of 2800 Eagle pilots will tell you.. "Put everything at AA - just take us with you."



Having said all this, my intent is to not perpetuate a ****ing contest. It is only to say that there are always three sides to a story. We are all very foolish if we allow airline managements turn us into cavemen bludgeoning each other over and over with these endless arguments.

Now more than ever, it is high time that ALL pilots - whoever wherever and whatever they fly - work together to bring some dignity and honor back to this profession.

Rich

Your not kidding about training, I busted your PC because I took the ugly FA, thought that was what flowbacks were supposed to do,;).
Good luck at training Rich.

The Drizzle
03-02-2014, 11:57 AM
Could you elaborate on the proclaimation of this tasty tidbit ?

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/search.php?searchid=4583613