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Maverick
03-05-2014, 08:38 AM
AAG at it again. Skywest to take over 4 city pairs out of Chicago in April MKE, YUL ,ICT and CHO that are currently operated to L-eagle. Now its gonna take around 13 yrs 8 months seniority just to hold a hard line on the EMB in Chicago. And even then all the trips are uncommutable on 1 side or the other.


rcfd13
03-05-2014, 08:44 AM
I was under the impression that Skywest was taking over some Chautauqua routes that RAH is getting rid of. Was this actually Eagle flying?

Bzzt
03-05-2014, 08:46 AM
I'm surprised the majors have made Skywest such a huge part of their feed. Exposes them to a ton of risk if Skywest ever has staffing problems.


Jet87
03-05-2014, 08:57 AM
I'm surprised the majors have made Skywest such a huge part of their feed. Exposes them to a ton of risk if Skywest ever has staffing problems.

Yeah because 30 airplanes is a ton of feed for AA/US....

NVUS
03-05-2014, 09:02 AM
Exposes them? Like how we're exposed at LAX flying for Delta, United AND American? This may be bad news for Envoy (two sides to every coin) but its good news for the SkyWest ORD based crews who were facing displacement on the CRJ as the E-175s come on line.

rcfd13
03-05-2014, 09:03 AM
I'm surprised the majors have made Skywest such a huge part of their feed. Exposes them to a ton of risk if Skywest ever has staffing problems.

The only major that Skywest (Inc.) does a huge percentage of regional flying for is Delta. That's probably part of the reason they wanted to buy PNCL and have given a lot of flying to Compass. 30 planes between AA/US is nothing.

Maverick
03-05-2014, 09:07 AM
its hard to keep track
Connection/Eagle have swapped on some routes. Eagle doing more GRR, DBQ, FNT, RST while Chataqua has picked up TVC and others

HermannGraf
03-05-2014, 09:39 AM
The only major that Skywest (Inc.) does a huge percentage of regional flying for is Delta. That's probably part of the reason they wanted to buy PNCL and have given a lot of flying to Compass. 30 planes between AA/US is nothing.

Actually we do more flying for United than for Delta at Skywest Airlines. We do %40+ of their departures or more than 800+departures per day IN UA colours. I don't know about Inc.

HermannGraf
03-05-2014, 09:51 AM
I am sorry the guys at Envoy that are fighting not only for themselves but for all pilots at the Regional level are seeing the flying go away to other places. Some pilots can say that we as pilots have nothing to do with it and that it is only management that is to blame but I see this flying coming to us as a clear result of our pilot group voting yes for our concessionary pay package that gave our management the opportunity to be even cheaper. Our vote result was wrong when others are fighting for us. The pilot group was told from different sources that we did not have any leverage and immediately after the vote media was full of our leverage. It is sad that we as a pilot group did not understand the situation better and that we did not stand stronger but it is done and we should learn from it. Negotiations are about to start again and this time we should stand firm and demand what we have lost in years. There will be plenty of flying around as every Regional will have a hard time finding pilots and attrition is killing them.
To the Envoy guys, I am sorry.

spuzzyair
03-05-2014, 09:57 AM
The only major that Skywest (Inc.) does a huge percentage of regional flying for is Delta. That's probably part of the reason they wanted to buy PNCL and have given a lot of flying to Compass. 30 planes between AA/US is nothing.

Pinnacle was purchased because Delta had absolutely no way to cover the amount of flying they did had they closed up shop. With the purchase, Delta can oversee the parking of the -200. Also, Compass hardly has a lot of flying. They have 42 airplanes and have not grown and will not grow.

These routes that SkyWest will be flying for AA are some Envoy/Eagle routes and some Chautauqua. I believe EGF/CHQ both flew the ICT/MKE markets where as EGF flew YUL/CHO. It's directly related to the parking for the 140/145's by both Eagle and CHQ. OO is utilizing planes coming off contract with DL and will be operating these as pro-rate/at-risk flying.

AZFlyn1
03-05-2014, 10:03 AM
I am sorry the guys at Envoy that are fighting not only for themselves but for all pilots at the Regional level are seeing the flying go away to other places. Some pilots can say that we as pilots have nothing to do with it and that it is only management that is to blame but I see this flying coming to us as a clear result of our pilot group voting yes for our concessionary pay package that gave our management the opportunity to be even cheaper. Our vote result was wrong when others are fighting for us. The pilot group was told from different sources that we did not have any leverage and immediately after the vote media was full of our leverage. It is sad that we as a pilot group did not understand the situation better and that we did not stand stronger but it is done and we should learn from it. Negotiations are about to start again and this time we should stand firm and demand what we have lost in years. There will be plenty of flying around as every Regional will have a hard time finding pilots and attrition is killing them.
To the Envoy guys, I am sorry.

I agree it was a mistake to vote it in, however you are right negotiations start up again soon and it was only for a year. I think a lot of us had our eyes opened. Lets hope we have all learned and keep up the fight. Regionals are not a stepping stone anymore and we need to be treated as such.

spuzzyair
03-05-2014, 10:04 AM
I'm surprised the majors have made Skywest such a huge part of their feed. Exposes them to a ton of risk if Skywest ever has staffing problems.

I think OO is factoring in the fact that as the -200's get parked and the 76 seat jets come online, not quite 1 for 1, that the staffing levels should balance out a bit... if things get dire, they can always park the 120's and move those pilots over to jets. However, seeing as the Bro's are making cash hand over fist, its certainly the last resort.

NVUS
03-05-2014, 10:08 AM
To be completely thorough, SkyWest Airlines currently does 1,018 average daily departures for United, 491 for Delta, 89 for US Airways, 87 for American and 29 for Alaska. Exact numbers are unavailable for ExpressJet but if I had to guess...

SkyWest, Inc. - 2,100 United, 1,500 Delta, 160 American, 89 US Airways and 29 Alaska.

I don't believe Envoy has much to worry about at this point.

JustAMushroom
03-05-2014, 01:26 PM
I am sorry the guys at Envoy that are fighting not only for themselves but for all pilots at the Regional level are seeing the flying go away to other places. Some pilots can say that we as pilots have nothing to do with it and that it is only management that is to blame but I see this flying coming to us as a clear result of our pilot group voting yes for our concessionary pay package that gave our management the opportunity to be even cheaper. Our vote result was wrong when others are fighting for us. The pilot group was told from different sources that we did not have any leverage and immediately after the vote media was full of our leverage. It is sad that we as a pilot group did not understand the situation better and that we did not stand stronger but it is done and we should learn from it. Negotiations are about to start again and this time we should stand firm and demand what we have lost in years. There will be plenty of flying around as every Regional will have a hard time finding pilots and attrition is killing them.
To the Envoy guys, I am sorry.

Oh give it a rest. I was a no vote and even I say that it wasn't really a concession. It wasn't a large pay increase, which is what we should have had. But to apologize to envoy for what? For putting a hand full if plane in a base for AA? Eagle held strong, good for them. When we get to vote again we should not take anything less than a 10% raise either. But I'm not going to apologize for doing well and succeeding.

TheBlueBaron
03-05-2014, 01:57 PM
To be completely thorough, SkyWest Airlines currently does 1,018 average daily departures for United, 491 for Delta, 89 for US Airways, 87 for American and 29 for Alaska. Exact numbers are unavailable for ExpressJet but if I had to guess...

SkyWest, Inc. - 2,100 United, 1,500 Delta, 160 American, 89 US Airways and 29 Alaska.

I don't believe Envoy has much to worry about at this point.

The XJT number for today are:
UA 1483 DL 758 AA 69 Total 2310

HermannGraf
03-05-2014, 04:06 PM
Oh give it a rest. I was a no vote and even I say that it wasn't really a concession. It wasn't a large pay increase, which is what we should have had. But to apologize to envoy for what? For putting a hand full if plane in a base for AA? Eagle held strong, good for them. When we get to vote again we should not take anything less than a 10% raise either. But I'm not going to apologize for doing well and succeeding.

Get of the Mushroom, lol
I was a no vote because I understand the numbers and the numbers told me we did not in any way get a raise. Why did you vote no? Pay increase, C'mon, what pay increase? We took concessions, Do you mean that the pay raise was the "make you believe we giving you something" medical pay and more for the uniform and 3 minutes more while they raise the reserve to 76, did not re-negotiate the 1% cola and are paying the raise for the bro with savings in training due to new seat locks?


The company saved money on this last package. 1% cola that was not re-negotiated for the pilot group would have cost the company more than the symbolic bs we got.

The company played the game well outsmarted the pilot group and used SAPA as help.......

Stinsat7
03-05-2014, 04:17 PM
Herman what exactly are you sorry about? At no point in the process of Envoy or ouselves at Skywest voting on TA's did we ever make less or undercut them in any way. We got a whopping 4 AC, if we get an actual RFP are you going to commit sepuku in protest?





BTW I voted no.

HermannGraf
03-05-2014, 04:26 PM
Herman what exactly are you sorry about? At no point in the process of Envoy or ouselves at Skywest voting on TA's did we ever make less or undercut them in any way. We got a whopping 4 AC, if we get an actual RFP are you going to commit sepuku in protest?





BTW I voted no.

I am sorry that we as a pilot group did not support the other pilot groups that are fighting and that have said it is enough. I am sorry that we let us as a pilot group be fooled to think this was ok and passed the package on the first vote. Not even making an attempt to make it better and I am also sorry that we believed that at the moment we did not have any leverage. We have tons.

Mason32
03-05-2014, 05:18 PM
Oh give it a rest. I was a no vote and even I say that it wasn't really a concession. It wasn't a large pay increase, which is what we should have had. But to apologize to envoy for what? For putting a hand full if plane in a base for AA? Eagle held strong, good for them. When we get to vote again we should not take anything less than a 10% raise either. But I'm not going to apologize for doing well and succeeding.

You've made your choices. For those just coming online, or looking to, the message should be clear. You do not accept a job at a non-owned carrier, period. You take pride in yourself, and in your profession, and you take the job at a wholly owned. Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

JustAMushroom
03-06-2014, 01:40 AM
Get of the Mushroom, lol
I was a no vote because I understand the numbers and the numbers told me we did not in any way get a raise. Why did you vote no? Pay increase, C'mon, what pay increase? We took concessions, Do you mean that the pay raise was the "make you believe we giving you something" medical pay and more for the uniform and 3 minutes more while they raise the reserve to 76, did not re-negotiate the 1% cola and are paying the raise for the bro with savings in training due to new seat locks?


The company saved money on this last package. 1% cola that was not re-negotiated for the pilot group would have cost the company more than the symbolic bs we got.

The company played the game well outsmarted the pilot group and used SAPA as help.......

I voted no for those exact reasons. And also because we continue to improve on experience and efficiency and need to be compensated for it. And because they can find $2M+ for a hand full of management but give 3000 $2M. And because the 175 wasn't a raise. And especially especially because the cola is gone.

Yes, it should have been sent back. Yes SAPA should be reorganized. Do I feel bad for SkyWest growth? Not one bit. The only time We should balk at growth is if it was a direct result of shrinking a major.

I don't wish any bad on any regional pilot group. Even Pinnacle or PSA. And any growth we achieve from their loss should come with a preferential interview. But do I think we should stop growth for their benefit? No. And I'm not going to apologize for that.

JustAMushroom
03-06-2014, 04:22 AM
You've made your choices. For those just coming online, or looking to, the message should be clear. You do not accept a job at a non-owned carrier, period. You take pride in yourself, and in your profession, and you take the job at a wholly owned. Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.
Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA. No ill will here. And it would be great if every major made the 50 seat their entry level plane. I've got no beef with that. We should all want that.

I'm saying it's silly to feel bad and go even further and apologize for our success. SkyWest pilots have a esprit de corps and it's not because some magic juice management passes out. We are pretty good at policing ourselves and bitter rude and unproductive pilots learn fast they are not welcome. Pilots who do a good job here at running an efficient operation. We make SkyWest a lot of money. We should be paid a lot more. And if by being efficient we grow, isn't that the idea?

What
03-06-2014, 05:16 AM
I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA. No ill will here. And it would be great if every major made the 50 seat their entry level plane. I've got no beef with that. We should all want that.

I'm saying it's silly to feel bad and go even further and apologize for our success. SkyWest pilots have a esprit de corps and it's not because some magic juice management passes out. We are pretty good at policing ourselves and bitter rude and unproductive pilots learn fast they are not welcome. Pilots who do a good job here at running an efficient operation. We make SkyWest a lot of money. We should be paid a lot more. And if by being efficient we grow, isn't that the idea?

15 years, one must take into account that for over 12 of those AA didn't hire. Be careful with your "efficient" statement. I understand your concept but many around here use the same word in relations to confections and undercutting other.

The SKW culture is different that many other regionals, if you were to place the same pilot group with a different management as that of RAH or Mesa you would see a totally different result. The culture at SKW has more to do with the atmosphere management has created than the pilots policing themselves.

You do have a point about the flow but unfortunately many folks don't look at history and only base things in what have you done for me lately, currently they see the flow as 20 a month leaving from the top and management will capitalize on that, even this it has been a failure over the 14-15 years prior for reasons discussed above.

snippercr
03-06-2014, 05:25 AM
nvm, I'll save trolling Mav to EL.

buddies8
03-06-2014, 06:21 AM
Agree with WHAT

lakehouse
03-06-2014, 06:47 AM
Mason works for aa, I'm guessing he's apart of the apa

amcnd
03-06-2014, 07:00 AM
You've made your choices. For those just coming online, or looking to, the message should be clear. You do not accept a job at a non-owned carrier, period. You take pride in yourself, and in your profession, and you take the job at a wholly owned. Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.

I drank that cool-aid from AE/AA back in the mid 90's.... Still the same snake oil.. Don't base you job placement on a "flow" or a "wholly owned"...

amcnd
03-06-2014, 07:04 AM
So if the 50 seaters are all crap and no one wants then why is OO buying there lease end 200's and replacing CHQ and Lakes.. I think OO found a nitch. Someone has to fly to these city's... And cheap lease returns and prorate seem to be the combo...

fullflank
03-06-2014, 07:05 AM
If there's any advice I can offer a new pilot it's NEVER work for a wholly owned. You have zero leverage when they come and tell you "take concessions on your 21k/year or we'll shut you down". If you're at a fee for departure carrier that threat doesn't exist.

HermannGraf
03-06-2014, 07:06 AM
I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA. No ill will here. And it would be great if every major made the 50 seat their entry level plane. I've got no beef with that. We should all want that.

I'm saying it's silly to feel bad and go even further and apologize for our success. SkyWest pilots have a esprit de corps and it's not because some magic juice management passes out. We are pretty good at policing ourselves and bitter rude and unproductive pilots learn fast they are not welcome. Pilots who do a good job here at running an efficient operation. We make SkyWest a lot of money. We should be paid a lot more. And if by being efficient we grow, isn't that the idea?


I agree with that, we are pretty good and we make Skywest successful and we pay for all the stupid mistakes Inc makes (Mekong, Brazil, XJT, etc). If it wasn't for the Hen with the golden eggs (Skywest Airlines), Inc would be in serious trouble by now.

I do not mind telling the guys I am sorry they are loosing their flying because they held against their management and even more when news comes out that we are getting some of that. I do not apologize for us at Skywest being efficient but I can feel solidarity and understand that it looks pretty bad from their point of view.

Apologize does not necessary mean weakness or something bad, it just shows that one is able to see it from their point of view. Aside from that we seem to agree that the result from the vote was pitiful and I for one felt the pilot group was fooled and wish we had the "balls" of Envoy and XJT when we vote and still be productive and effective like we are.

Nevets
03-06-2014, 07:10 AM
I am sorry the guys at Envoy that are fighting not only for themselves but for all pilots at the Regional level are seeing the flying go away to other places. Some pilots can say that we as pilots have nothing to do with it and that it is only management that is to blame but I see this flying coming to us as a clear result of our pilot group voting yes for our concessionary pay package that gave our management the opportunity to be even cheaper. Our vote result was wrong when others are fighting for us. The pilot group was told from different sources that we did not have any leverage and immediately after the vote media was full of our leverage. It is sad that we as a pilot group did not understand the situation better and that we did not stand stronger but it is done and we should learn from it. Negotiations are about to start again and this time we should stand firm and demand what we have lost in years. There will be plenty of flying around as every Regional will have a hard time finding pilots and attrition is killing them.
To the Envoy guys, I am sorry.

If only you guys were unionized like EGL and XJT, you may have gotten more of the correct information about your pay package you voted on. Without the job protections of unionization, most people won't speak up.


Quote:





Originally Posted by rcfd13


The only major that Skywest (Inc.) does a huge percentage of regional flying for is Delta. That's probably part of the reason they wanted to buy PNCL and have given a lot of flying to Compass. 30 planes between AA/US is nothing.




Pinnacle was purchased because Delta had absolutely no way to cover the amount of flying they did had they closed up shop. With the purchase, Delta can oversee the parking of the -200. Also, Compass hardly has a lot of flying. They have 42 airplanes and have not grown and will not grow.

These routes that SkyWest will be flying for AA are some Envoy/Eagle routes and some Chautauqua. I believe EGF/CHQ both flew the ICT/MKE markets where as EGF flew YUL/CHO. It's directly related to the parking for the 140/145's by both Eagle and CHQ. OO is utilizing planes coming off contract with DL and will be operating these as pro-rate/at-risk flying.

The last annual report showed 7 CRJ200s unassigned. Are these the DL aircraft you speak of?


Quote:





Originally Posted by JustAMushroom


Oh give it a rest. I was a no vote and even I say that it wasn't really a concession. It wasn't a large pay increase, which is what we should have had. But to apologize to envoy for what? For putting a hand full if plane in a base for AA? Eagle held strong, good for them. When we get to vote again we should not take anything less than a 10% raise either. But I'm not going to apologize for doing well and succeeding.




Get of the Mushroom, lol
I was a no vote because I understand the numbers and the numbers told me we did not in any way get a raise. Why did you vote no? Pay increase, C'mon, what pay increase? We took concessions, Do you mean that the pay raise was the "make you believe we giving you something" medical pay and more for the uniform and 3 minutes more while they raise the reserve to 76, did not re-negotiate the 1% cola and are paying the raise for the bro with savings in training due to new seat locks?


The company saved money on this last package. 1% cola that was not re-negotiated for the pilot group would have cost the company more than the symbolic bs we got.

The company played the game well outsmarted the pilot group and used SAPA as help.......

Did they also renegotiate the me too language for the ASA/XJT contract or was that given away as well?


Quote:





Originally Posted by HermannGraf


Get of the Mushroom, lol
I was a no vote because I understand the numbers and the numbers told me we did not in any way get a raise. Why did you vote no? Pay increase, C'mon, what pay increase? We took concessions, Do you mean that the pay raise was the "make you believe we giving you something" medical pay and more for the uniform and 3 minutes more while they raise the reserve to 76, did not re-negotiate the 1% cola and are paying the raise for the bro with savings in training due to new seat locks?


The company saved money on this last package. 1% cola that was not re-negotiated for the pilot group would have cost the company more than the symbolic bs we got.

The company played the game well outsmarted the pilot group and used SAPA as help.......




I voted no for those exact reasons. And also because we continue to improve on experience and efficiency and need to be compensated for it. And because they can find $2M+ for a hand full of management but give 3000 $2M. And because the 175 wasn't a raise. And especially especially because the cola is gone.

Yes, it should have been sent back. Yes SAPA should be reorganized. Do I feel bad for SkyWest growth? Not one bit. The only time We should balk at growth is if it was a direct result of shrinking a major.

I don't wish any bad on any regional pilot group. Even Pinnacle or PSA. And any growth we achieve from their loss should come with a preferential interview. But do I think we should stop growth for their benefit? No. And I'm not going to apologize for that.

Any growth any regional gets with another regionals aircraft should take the pilots with them with longevity and seniority.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Mason32


You've made your choices. For those just coming online, or looking to, the message should be clear. You do not accept a job at a non-owned carrier, period. You take pride in yourself, and in your profession, and you take the job at a wholly owned. Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.





Quote:





Originally Posted by Mason32


Our projections are that within 2 years AAG will be forced to merge Eagle/Envoy into AA as the only way to attract pilots to fly the smaller jets. By then, the other majors will have copied the flow-thru program at AA, and the recruiting tool AA will enjoy will no longer exist. At that point, they will have to make the E175 NG the entry level job at AA rather than a seperate subsidiary.

Good luck at your non-owned subcontracting company.




I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA. No ill will here. And it would be great if every major made the 50 seat their entry level plane. I've got no beef with that. We should all want that.

I'm saying it's silly to feel bad and go even further and apologize for our success. SkyWest pilots have a esprit de corps and it's not because some magic juice management passes out. We are pretty good at policing ourselves and bitter rude and unproductive pilots learn fast they are not welcome. Pilots who do a good job here at running an efficient operation. We make SkyWest a lot of money. We should be paid a lot more. And if by being efficient we grow, isn't that the idea?

You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.

HermannGraf
03-06-2014, 07:32 AM
If only you guys were unionized like EGL and XJT, you may have gotten more of the correct information about your pay package you voted on. Without the job protections of unionization, most people won't speak up.



The last annual report showed 7 CRJ200s unassigned. Are these the DL aircraft you speak of?



Did they also renegotiate the me too language for the ASA/XJT contract or was that given away as well?

I voted no and believe people would see clearly that the offer was no stagnation and even less a plus in any way. There was a lot of scare propaganda like "look what happened to Endevour and PSA", "Eagle will for sure vote yes" people said and the company was smart and used SAPA after they got SAPA exactly where they wanted. The making it a 1 year thing was a brilliant move from their part, that got a lot of yes votes and actually now when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote. They "management" knew we had tons of leverage. We need professional negotiators that can't be used by the company to sell the pilot group a dish and that can see through Managements brilliant moves.

buddies8
03-06-2014, 07:36 AM
If there's any advice I can offer a new pilot it's NEVER work for a wholly owned. You have zero leverage when they come and tell you "take concessions on your 21k/year or we'll shut you down". If you're at a fee for departure carrier that threat doesn't exist.

Very, very true. From a pilot of a wholly owned. Full frank is correct.

JustAMushroom
03-06-2014, 07:50 AM
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.

When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.

No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.

andreas500
03-06-2014, 07:53 AM
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.

The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.

Nevets
03-06-2014, 08:34 AM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets





You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.




When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.

No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.

I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up


Quote:





Originally Posted by HermannGraf


...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.




The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.

Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.

NVUS
03-06-2014, 08:51 AM
Nevets - Union - Bitter
JustAMushroom - Non-union - Happy

End of Discussion

Waitingformins
03-06-2014, 09:45 AM
Nevets - Union - Bitter
JustAMushroom - Non-union - Happy

End of Discussion


Thatís so cheap, nonunion pay scales come off the backs of union pay scales donít be stupid.

CanoeBum
03-06-2014, 09:55 AM
Example ASA contract 07 Skywest had an inclusion clause to give them what we negotiated. How many Skywest pilots paid dues to ALPA for that? I really am happy for you guys just don't think for a minute you did it all without union help.

Stinsat7
03-06-2014, 10:34 AM
Thatís so cheap, nonunion pay scales come off the backs of union pay scales donít be stupid.

If that's so, why didn't we follow the union pay scales down when ALPA regionals had their orgy of concessions last year?

ross9238
03-06-2014, 10:54 AM
independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on.

Are you saying that the union is the independent source that tells you that you have a concessionary TA?? I didn't hear any of them say it is concessionary but rather that it was still industry leading.

rcfd13
03-06-2014, 11:41 AM
I've seen a lot of people say that Skywest pilots are wrong for not unionizing, but I've yet to see anyone post any valid argument for them doing so. "Because other airlines want you to" doesn't help any of us put food on the table. If I felt like unionizing would increase my pay or QOL I'd do it, but seeing all of the industry leading contracts ALPA has negotiated in the past few years for XJT, Eagle, PSA and Endeavor doesn't make it very appealing to me.

spuzzyair
03-06-2014, 11:50 AM
I've seen a lot of people say that Skywest pilots are wrong for not unionizing, but I've yet to see anyone post any valid argument for them doing so. "Because other airlines want you to" doesn't help any of us put food on the table. If I felt like unionizing would increase my pay or QOL I'd do it, but seeing all of the industry leading contracts ALPA has negotiated in the past few years for XJT, Eagle, PSA and Endeavor doesn't make it very appealing to me.

Agreed! What has ALPA done for you lately? Nothing! We at SkyWest have grown to where we are at without a union. A majority of our work groups are happy with the relationship we have with management, and don't really see a strong reason to change that.

Nevets
03-06-2014, 12:39 PM
Nevets - Union - Bitter
JustAMushroom - Non-union - Happy

End of Discussion

NVUS = assumption

Assuming = ***

Let me put it this way for you to be and to understand.

SWA = ALL union
So does that mean
ALL SWA employees = bitter

Make sure you either stay there or go to VA or Allegiant. Otherwise you will = bitter.

Example ASA contract 07 Skywest had an inclusion clause to give them what we negotiated. How many Skywest pilots paid dues to ALPA for that? I really am happy for you guys just don't think for a minute you did it all without union help.

And they also did it for the joint ASA/XJT contract. Skywest pilots get what ASA/XJT get in scope, health care benefits, and 401k matching.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on.




Are you saying that the union is the independent source that tells you that you have a concessionary TA?? I didn't hear any of them say it is concessionary but rather that it was still industry leading.

They said both actually. Which were both true.
I've seen a lot of people say that Skywest pilots are wrong for not unionizing, but I've yet to see anyone post any valid argument for them doing so. "Because other airlines want you to" doesn't help any of us put food on the table. If I felt like unionizing would increase my pay or QOL I'd do it, but seeing all of the industry leading contracts ALPA has negotiated in the past few years for XJT, Eagle, PSA and Endeavor doesn't make it very appealing to me.

Who said anything about ALPA? It's about giving SAPA actual leverage. Without them being recognized by the NMB as your collective bargaining agent, you don't have much.

amcnd
03-06-2014, 01:20 PM
^^^ yet it seems that SkyWest has always been equal or better then the higher alpa carriers... So they dont have this "levrage" you talk about. But what regional does. History has shown that...

ils8l
03-06-2014, 01:24 PM
^^^ yet it seems that SkyWest has always been equal or better then the higher alpa carriers... So they dont have this "levrage" you talk about. But what regional does. History has shown that...

Wait, what? The Exaulted Ones in St. George say you are cheaper. So which is it?

RJ Pilot
03-06-2014, 02:43 PM
I wish you luck too at your subcontracting company.

Get real. That AA flow has been the biggest joke for the last 15 years. It was easier to get on with AA from the street by a factor of 5:1. Even with that said, I hope all eagle guys get a staple to AA.

You are clueless. AE pilots right now are flowing up to the tune of 20 a month maybe more. How many Skywest pilots or any other Regional out there are flowing up to a major?

Thats right NONE......Still, a staple to AA is better than being #1 seniority at any regional.

Get real.

rcfd13
03-06-2014, 02:56 PM
You are clueless. AE pilots right now are flowing up to the tune of 20 a month maybe more. How many Skywest pilots or any other Regional out there are flowing up to a major?

Thats right NONE......Still, a staple to AA is better than being #1 seniority at any regional.

Get real.

Aren't you the same person who posts in all of the Eagle threads about how the flow through is never going to happen and everyone should quit at Eagle?

What
03-06-2014, 02:57 PM
You are clueless. AE pilots right now are flowing up to the tune of 20 a month maybe more. How many Skywest pilots or any other Regional out there are flowing up to a major?

Thats right NONE......Still, a staple to AA is better than being #1 seniority at any regional.

Get real.

Why didn't you flow or aren't flowing?

Stinsat7
03-06-2014, 04:51 PM
You are clueless. AE pilots right now are flowing up to the tune of 20 a month maybe more. How many Skywest pilots or any other Regional out there are flowing up to a major?

Thats right NONE......Still, a staple to AA is better than being #1 seniority at any regional.

Get real.

Incorrect 20 a month are flowing from compass to Delta along with 9 from Mesaba.

spuzzyair
03-06-2014, 04:52 PM
You are clueless. AE pilots right now are flowing up to the tune of 20 a month maybe more. How many Skywest pilots or any other Regional out there are flowing up to a major?

Thats right NONE......Still, a staple to AA is better than being #1 seniority at any regional.

Get real.

Compass is flowing to DL...

It also helps that you are wholly owned. Your logic is flawed in that SkyWest is not owned by any major carrier for them to flow up to....

citxls
03-06-2014, 05:18 PM
My ALpO dues pay for SKW known crewmember.

Jet87
03-06-2014, 06:35 PM
My ALpO dues pay for SKW known crewmember.

Actually SkyWest management has decided to pay for our KCM fees every month

PerpetualFlyer
03-06-2014, 06:49 PM
My ALpO dues pay for SKW known crewmember.

Awesome, thanks! PM me your address so I can send you a thank you card!

andreas500
03-06-2014, 07:07 PM
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up



Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
I do not agree that the only way is with a union.

Nevets
03-06-2014, 07:33 PM
^^^ yet it seems that SkyWest has always been equal or better then the higher alpa carriers... So they dont have this "levrage" you talk about. But what regional does. History has shown that...

They only let you think that. Look at the concessionary ASA/XJT TA. Even that was worth at least $12 million more than what you guys voted in. Your pay and work rules were used against ASA/XJT in negotiations as they were in 2008 when Skywest tried to buy XJT. XJT ended up taking concessions from being whipsawed against Skywest pilots. Also, you also end up with these me too clauses that act like an anchor to us who are trying to negotiate our contract. I'm not saying that you are the level of Gojet, for example. They are too smart for that. But it certainly isn't as good as they make you think. For example, many of you guys think you didn't vote in concessions, yet you did. They are a lot smarter than you guys and at the same time, you make their argument for them. Trust me, there is a reason why SGU pays millions to F&H.

What regional does? Skywest...if only you had a way to tap into that leverage.


Quote:





Originally Posted by citxls


My ALpO dues pay for SKW known crewmember.




Actually SkyWest management has decided to pay for our KCM fees every month

Yes, that's the way it works. If your airline pays to put their crews into the database, their crews can go thru kcm. But it was union dues that paid to get that program up. Just as it's union dues that helped pay for most all safety systems you take for granted such as ASAP. Non-union pilots ride those coat tails.


Quote:





Originally Posted by citxls


My ALpO dues pay for SKW known crewmember.




Awesome, thanks! PM me your address so I can send you a thank you card!

Or you can just not use something that you didn't help pay for?


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up



Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.




I do not agree that the only way is with a union.

I used to think that way when I worked at a non-union company. But now that I've seen it from another perspective, I realized that it's a necessary evil. I'm not saying that a union will cure all or make things a million times better. It's a lot more than a contract (although all the Inc executives work under they own contracts). And there is a reason why Skywest pays millions to F&H every year. And it's not because they are looking out for you. They pay millions to prevent you from taking advantage of the same rights they enjoy of having an employment contract.

JustAMushroom
03-06-2014, 08:14 PM
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up



You know nothing of my back ground or history. And I know little of you except that you are full of certainty which can only mean one thing... A young man (or woman) who hasn't had the lessons in life to learn a little humility.

A company that has a union deserves one. And maybe one day SkyWest will earn that stripe. I understand AA managent may be predatory. And in my opinion many airline managements are predatory and pilots require protection. But so far SGU is smart enough to keep us happy enough to stay union free.

It is not enough to say SkyWest should unionize for the betterment of XJT or any one else. And the pay scales a pilot group accepts is no concern of yours. You many feel superior for some perk you feel is better but it doesn't matter one bit to anyone else. I should quit my job because someone else doesn't think I make enough? Ha!

I've said this to you before, the only way to force a change is to show a SIGNIFICANT upside to organizing. It's not enough to say eagle or XJT will benefit if SkyWest organizes. It's gotta be plus for SkyWest pilots. And over the last 12+ years ALPA carriers have been sliding backwards while SkyWest has grown. So I'm afraid you've got an uphill battle.

DD214
03-07-2014, 01:32 AM
They only let you think that. Look at the concessionary ASA/XJT TA. Even that was worth at least $12 million more than what you guys voted in. Your pay and work rules were used against ASA/XJT in negotiations as they were in 2008 when Skywest tried to buy XJT. XJT ended up taking concessions from being whipsawed against Skywest pilots. Also, you also end up with these me too clauses that act like an anchor to us who are trying to negotiate our contract. I'm not saying that you are the level of Gojet, for example. They are too smart for that. But it certainly isn't as good as they make you think. For example, many of you guys think you didn't vote in concessions, yet you did. They are a lot smarter than you guys and at the same time, you make their argument for them. Trust me, there is a reason why SGU pays millions to F&H.

What regional does? Skywest...if only you had a way to tap into that leverage.



Yes, that's the way it works. If your airline pays to put their crews into the database, their crews can go thru kcm. But it was union dues that paid to get that program up. Just as it's union dues that helped pay for most all safety systems you take for granted such as ASAP. Non-union pilots ride those coat tails.



Or you can just not use something that you didn't help pay for?



I used to think that way when I worked at a non-union company. But now that I've seen it from another perspective, I realized that it's a necessary evil. I'm not saying that a union will cure all or make things a million times better. It's a lot more than a contract (although all the Inc executives work under they own contracts). And there is a reason why Skywest pays millions to F&H every year. And it's not because they are looking out for you. They pay millions to prevent you from taking advantage of the same rights they enjoy of having an employment contract.



Yep we still get it YOU HATE Skywest. I said this before the way you talk about the Whole Skywest pilot group is precisely the reason they will not organize at this time.

NVUS
03-07-2014, 02:28 AM
Nevets,

And it just kills you to know that SkyWest pilots are generally happy while you continue to spew your bitterness all over these boards.

Waitingformins
03-07-2014, 03:57 AM
Nevets,

And it just kills you to know that SkyWest pilots are generally happy while you continue to spew your bitterness all over these boards.


SkyWest pilots are generally happy because their company doesnít hold the leverage. 6 months after Eagle re-fleets and xjet is on a new 10 year deal they will be as happy as you. Right now their nuts are on the chopping block, a union is the best protection they can have; donít think for a second if they agree to pinnacle style cuts you and your golden goose company wonít be in the crosshairs. The rising tide lifts all boats weather you are union are not.

PerpetualFlyer
03-07-2014, 07:52 AM
No thanks, Nevets, I'll just continue to ride your coat tails and use KCM! Send me your address and I'll send you a thank you card as well!

FaceBiter
03-07-2014, 08:21 AM
Speaking of riding coat tails, when is XJ going to stop costing Inc. $15 million a quarter?

Nevets
03-07-2014, 08:22 AM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up




You know nothing of my back ground or history. And I know little of you except that you are full of certainty which can only mean one thing... A young man (or woman) who hasn't had the lessons in life to learn a little humility.

A company that has a union deserves one. And maybe one day SkyWest will earn that stripe. I understand AA managent may be predatory. And in my opinion many airline managements are predatory and pilots require protection. But so far SGU is smart enough to keep us happy enough to stay union free.

It is not enough to say SkyWest should unionize for the betterment of XJT or any one else. And the pay scales a pilot group accepts is no concern of yours. You many feel superior for some perk you feel is better but it doesn't matter one bit to anyone else. I should quit my job because someone else doesn't think I make enough? Ha!

I've said this to you before, the only way to force a change is to show a SIGNIFICANT upside to organizing. It's not enough to say eagle or XJT will benefit if SkyWest organizes. It's gotta be plus for SkyWest pilots. And over the last 12+ years ALPA carriers have been sliding backwards while SkyWest has grown. So I'm afraid you've got an uphill battle.

I never said I knew your background. I'm just saying that you don't know what you don't know. And if every company who has a union deserves a union is true, then why are all employees at SWA unionized? Do they have predatory management? Have you not stopped and thought why they want a union despite having friendly management? I think the more accurate thing to say is that SGU is just smarter. And the your concessions you just voted in does concern all of us! Yes, I'll admit that Skywest unionizing helps me indirectly but it would help you even more. The biggest factor in gaining a good contract isn't the letters in the name of the union (by the way, I never said anything about ALPA), it's the health of the airline. You bring up ALPA carriers sliding backwards but there have been examples of them moving forward (Dal, UAL, FDX, XJT, AWAC) as well as independents doing good (Apa swapa, IPA). And there have been examples of those same pilot groups sliding backwards as well. What is the common denominator? The health of the company. When the company is healthy, the pilot groups do well. When the company isn't healthy, the pilot groups slide back, but not by as much as would've been without the union. So this isn't about ALPA as much as you want to make it out to be. What I'm saying is that you could do a lot better for yourself and at the same time join the rest of your profession in trying to make it better rather than just taking.

I have humility. I've been flying for over 20 years now. And so I try to give back now. I would like it if we all gave back. It ends up helping us all in the long run. It shouldn't be all about you. That's the whole thing.

spuzzyair
03-07-2014, 08:55 AM
SkyWest pilots are generally happy because their company doesnít hold the leverage. 6 months after Eagle re-fleets and xjet is on a new 10 year deal they will be as happy as you. Right now their nuts are on the chopping block, a union is the best protection they can have; donít think for a second if they agree to pinnacle style cuts you and your golden goose company wonít be in the crosshairs. The rising tide lifts all boats weather you are union are not.

Pretty broad assumptions there. Xjet with a new 10 year deal? lol, funniest thing I heard all day...

spuzzyair
03-07-2014, 08:58 AM
I never said I knew your background. I'm just saying that you don't know what you don't know. And if every company who has a union deserves a union is true, then why are all employees at SWA unionized? Do they have predatory management? Have you not stopped and thought why they want a union despite having friendly management? I think the more accurate thing to say is that SGU is just smarter. And the your concessions you just voted in does concern all of us! Yes, I'll admit that Skywest unionizing helps me indirectly but it would help you even more. The biggest factor in gaining a good contract isn't the letters in the name of the union (by the way, I never said anything about ALPA), it's the health of the airline. You bring up ALPA carriers sliding backwards but there have been examples of them moving forward (Dal, UAL, FDX, XJT, AWAC) as well as independents doing good (Apa swapa, IPA). And there have been examples of those same pilot groups sliding backwards as well. What is the common denominator? The health of the company. When the company is healthy, the pilot groups do well. When the company isn't healthy, the pilot groups slide back, but not by as much as would've been without the union. So this isn't about ALPA as much as you want to make it out to be. What I'm saying is that you could do a lot better for yourself and at the same time join the rest of your profession in trying to make it better rather than just taking.

I have humility. I've been flying for over 20 years now. And so I try to give back now. I would like it if we all gave back. It ends up helping us all in the long run. It shouldn't be all about you. That's the whole thing.

So you want SkyWest to unionize just so you can feel better about yourself? You are so bitter that you work for a company that is unprofitable and you see the writing on the wall that Inc is fixing to end the disaster that is ExpressJet. Over 50+ million in losses last year, and the performance so far this year is abysmal. I would be bitter too if I was stuck at a place I know was fixing to be gutted.

Nevets
03-07-2014, 11:10 AM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


They only let you think that. Look at the concessionary ASA/XJT TA. Even that was worth at least $12 million more than what you guys voted in. Your pay and work rules were used against ASA/XJT in negotiations as they were in 2008 when Skywest tried to buy XJT. XJT ended up taking concessions from being whipsawed against Skywest pilots. Also, you also end up with these me too clauses that act like an anchor to us who are trying to negotiate our contract. I'm not saying that you are the level of Gojet, for example. They are too smart for that. But it certainly isn't as good as they make you think. For example, many of you guys think you didn't vote in concessions, yet you did. They are a lot smarter than you guys and at the same time, you make their argument for them. Trust me, there is a reason why SGU pays millions to F&H.

What regional does? Skywest...if only you had a way to tap into that leverage.



Yes, that's the way it works. If your airline pays to put their crews into the database, their crews can go thru kcm. But it was union dues that paid to get that program up. Just as it's union dues that helped pay for most all safety systems you take for granted such as ASAP. Non-union pilots ride those coat tails.



Or you can just not use something that you didn't help pay for?



I used to think that way when I worked at a non-union company. But now that I've seen it from another perspective, I realized that it's a necessary evil. I'm not saying that a union will cure all or make things a million times better. It's a lot more than a contract (although all the Inc executives work under they own contracts). And there is a reason why Skywest pays millions to F&H every year. And it's not because they are looking out for you. They pay millions to prevent you from taking advantage of the same rights they enjoy of having an employment contract.






Yep we still get it YOU HATE Skywest. I said this before the way you talk about the Whole Skywest pilot group is precisely the reason they will not organize at this time.

I hate what Skywest has become. And the fact that you are not unionized hasn't helped. We have an immoral and unethical CEO. That's what in hate.

Nevets,

And it just kills you to know that SkyWest pilots are generally happy while you continue to spew your bitterness all over these boards.

And doesn't kill me. I only see that you guys are being had and it's not that you don't know it, it's also that you tow the company line. Sad really.

No thanks, Nevets, I'll just continue to ride your coat tails and use KCM! Send me your address and I'll send you a thank you card as well!

Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.

Speaking of riding coat tails, when is XJ going to stop costing Inc. $15 million a quarter?

When our CEO decides to do away the cost of two management teams, two sets of systems, programs, and departments it takes to run two airlines. Just to be clear, the CPAs that we operate under have all been negotiated by our CEO.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


I never said I knew your background. I'm just saying that you don't know what you don't know. And if every company who has a union deserves a union is true, then why are all employees at SWA unionized? Do they have predatory management? Have you not stopped and thought why they want a union despite having friendly management? I think the more accurate thing to say is that SGU is just smarter. And the your concessions you just voted in does concern all of us! Yes, I'll admit that Skywest unionizing helps me indirectly but it would help you even more. The biggest factor in gaining a good contract isn't the letters in the name of the union (by the way, I never said anything about ALPA), it's the health of the airline. You bring up ALPA carriers sliding backwards but there have been examples of them moving forward (Dal, UAL, FDX, XJT, AWAC) as well as independents doing good (Apa swapa, IPA). And there have been examples of those same pilot groups sliding backwards as well. What is the common denominator? The health of the company. When the company is healthy, the pilot groups do well. When the company isn't healthy, the pilot groups slide back, but not by as much as would've been without the union. So this isn't about ALPA as much as you want to make it out to be. What I'm saying is that you could do a lot better for yourself and at the same time join the rest of your profession in trying to make it better rather than just taking.

I have humility. I've been flying for over 20 years now. And so I try to give back now. I would like it if we all gave back. It ends up helping us all in the long run. It shouldn't be all about you. That's the whole thing.




So you want SkyWest to unionize just so you can feel better about yourself? You are so bitter that you work for a company that is unprofitable and you see the writing on the wall that Inc is fixing to end the disaster that is ExpressJet. Over 50+ million in losses last year, and the performance so far this year is abysmal. I would be bitter too if I was stuck at a place I know was fixing to be gutted.

I'm not bitter. Disappointed would closer to how I feel. But trust me, there is a high probability that XJT will not exist in the future. And I'm ok with that if the alternative is to continue this abysmal performance. By the way, the performance wasn't abysmal until Inc took over. The losses ALL come as a result to what inc has done. They negotiated the CPAs we operate under and they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.


Look, I know this can be an emotional discussion sometimes. This isn't about feeling better or being bitter. This is about mutually helping each other. If you help yourselves, it helps the rest of the profession. But until that happens, you will continue to be the weakest link in the chain we are all connected to. We are being whipsawed against you as we speak! Why should that happen? We all are trying to work for profits for the same corporation! This whipsaw model our CEO has us under is immoral, unethical, and disgusting. And it will perpetuate unless you help yourselves.

NVUS
03-07-2014, 11:40 AM
they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.

Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.

yimke
03-07-2014, 12:46 PM
Speaking of riding coat tails, when is XJ going to stop costing Inc. $15 million a quarter?

As soon as the whipsaw stops. Inc decides who does the flying. Why give profitable CPAs to a group that is already losing money? That way you can claim "bleeding" to lower labor costs. Then they whipsaw the other side. Plus.. good tax writeoff.

FaceBiter
03-07-2014, 01:18 PM
XJ can't handle the flying it currently has, performance is terrible.

ross9238
03-07-2014, 01:43 PM
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.

Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.

Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?

Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.

buddies8
03-07-2014, 03:06 PM
Speaking of riding coat tails, when is XJ going to stop costing Inc. $15 million a quarter?

when INC stops bidding on contracts below cost. get it, got it, good.
back to the management barn you go.

Doug Heffernan
03-07-2014, 03:46 PM
I think OO is factoring in the fact that as the -200's get parked and the 76 seat jets come online, not quite 1 for 1, that the staffing levels should balance out a bit... if things get dire, they can always park the 120's and move those pilots over to jets. However, seeing as the Bro's are making cash hand over fist, its certainly the last resort.

Too bad the plots flying them aren't. Lame. :(

PerpetualFlyer
03-07-2014, 04:43 PM
Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.



Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!

spuzzyair
03-07-2014, 06:27 PM
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.

Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.

Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?

Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.


Performance is terrible due in part to the fact that United sucks. Their ground handling sucks as does their whole infrastructure for the United Express operation... throw in an airline that is clearly reeling and it just is that much worse. Even here at SkyWest our United ops aren't doing so hot, and it's because of United. Sure not all of these stations are handled by United mainline but when they can't turn a 50 seat airplane in less than an hour they got serious problems.

DroopsN10
03-07-2014, 06:29 PM
Quote:





Originally Posted by JustAMushroom


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets





You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.




When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.

No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.




I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up


Quote:





Originally Posted by andreas500


Quote:





Originally Posted by HermannGraf


...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.




The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.




Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.

Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.

NVUS
03-08-2014, 02:28 AM
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?.

ASA was bought to ensure Inc was Delta's largest connection carrier.
ExpressJet was bought to ensure Inc was United's largest express carrier.
Leverage. Nothing more, nothing less. Never was there a plan to merge them with the original airline. Never will there be.

spaaks
03-08-2014, 10:22 AM
ASA was bought to ensure Inc was Delta's largest connection carrier.
ExpressJet was bought to ensure Inc was United's largest express carrier.
Leverage. Nothing more, nothing less. Never was there a plan to merge them with the original airline. Never will there be.

exactly, one management team now controls the majority

Electra
03-08-2014, 07:38 PM
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.

Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.

Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?

Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.


Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.

Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.

Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.

I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.

spuzzyair
03-09-2014, 09:30 AM
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.

Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.

Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.

I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.


Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.

buddies8
03-09-2014, 09:38 AM
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.

who does the accounting? who controls what is charged and what is not? who decides how much to bid for RFP's? you are a very simple minded person.

NVUS
03-09-2014, 09:41 AM
ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.

Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-is-skywest-buying-expressjet/)

buddies8
03-09-2014, 10:47 AM
ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.

Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-is-skywest-buying-expressjet/)

well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.

NVUS
03-09-2014, 11:19 AM
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.

Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.

8ballfreight
03-09-2014, 11:33 AM
If skywest didn't bid expressjet flying at a loss, expressjet would shrink to nothing. ->
Having planes and pilots is skyw inc's only leverage to eventually win rfp's at a profit for expressjet.
So, if I was at expressjet, I'd be very motivated to be as efficient as possible to keep share holders happy until that day, because everybody throws in the towel eventually.

spuzzyair
03-09-2014, 06:24 PM
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.

Well for sure they didn't think they would get a bunch of whiny pilots who were going to blame all their inadequacies on SkyWest. Thanks for posting the article, because now even you admit all the excuses blaming SkyWest for why you guys are unprofitable is complete crap.

Yes the financial problems might not necessarily be linked to the employees, but the bad attitudes and poor performance can be. You guys still have a job to do and its to show up to work, on-time, and to perform that job to the best of your ability. Quit playing the blame game. Performance has been abysmal and its nobody fault but your own. Not SkyWest's, not the poor contracts, it's yours. Why don't you guys as a work group step up to the plate and do your part to turn it all around??? Instead you want to sit on these forums and blame SkyWest.

Nevets
03-10-2014, 08:40 PM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.




Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.

And I may be ok with that except for when our CEO wants me to pay for his disgusting whipsaw.

XJ can't handle the flying it currently has, performance is terrible.

Thanks to bad Inc management.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets



Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.




Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!

Why are you so happy taking advantage and for granted things that thousands in our profession care enough about to actually put their money where their mouth is? Leech much?

535 Herndon Parkway
P. O. Box 1169
Herndon, VA 20172

Address it to those who you shamelessly take advantage of.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


Quote:





Originally Posted by JustAMushroom


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets





You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.




When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.

No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.




I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up


Quote:





Originally Posted by andreas500


Quote:





Originally Posted by HermannGraf


...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.




The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.




Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.




Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.

What? Unionizing doesn't mean bad things happen. Look at SWA. All their employees are unionized and all of them are happy and their company is profitable. Who is saying ANYTHING about merging lists? That's very self-centered anyway. Inc can save money by making it one airline with multiple certificates (like RAH) and keep lists separate. This idea was mentioned to JA but he is the greedy one.


Quote:





Originally Posted by ross9238


Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.

Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.

Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?

Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.





Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.

Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.

Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.

I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.

You are so ignorant on so many points, it's sad.

Those CPAs? Negotiated by Inc. including the ASA CPA with DAL which had the second lowest clause kick in just as inc bought XJT. Both of those loser CPAs are products of our CEO.

Who has said anything about ALPA or merging lists?

And if you did listed to the conference call, you would know that a VAST majority of the flight cancellations happened on the XJT side because our larger operation operates predominantly in the east coast and Midwest where traffic and weather hit the most. And our western most base, the same DEN airport you say closes all but two runways.

And RJs with 40,000+ cycles? XJT has more of them and management does a poor job of maintaining them.

Also, regardless of us being on the chopping block, it's a FACT that you do ride coat tails. I don't know why you mentioned the two in the same sentence since one has nothing to do with the other.

About the only thing you said that is spot on is that we are both the same. Yet you do nothing! You won't engage. We are both prisoners in the same jail but the warden favors you. So of course you don't want anything to change. Thank you for being a fellow human being just trying to take care of our families.

Lastly, would you take a pay cut while your CEO gives himself thousands of shares of stock while paying for two of everything to run two airlines in order to be able to pit you against his other employees just so that he can be a little richer than he is? It doesn't even matter that the savings won't make up the difference in the loses they created with their CPAs. It's the principle that they want you to take a pay cut in order to perpetuate a disgusting immoral whipsaw business model. Shameful...


Quote:





Originally Posted by Electra


Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.

Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.

Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.

I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.





Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.

You guys don't get it. Who made these loser deals? It was our CEO. Why do you keep blaming us pilots for what our CEO has done?

ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.

Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News

You can't be this naive. XJT had a money making CPA with cal for 205 aircraft until Skywest whipsawed us with their pilots. The loses where all from branded and charter. The loses came exclusively from that side. The cal side of the operation was profitable. Once branded was shut down, and cal parked the 30 135s, XJT got the CPA with UAL for 22 aircraft. The others would've been given to CHQ like cal originally wanted to and the loses would've stopped. But in came JA with his whipsaw. Skywest broke it and now owns it.


Quote:





Originally Posted by buddies8


well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.




Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.

Who is saying anything about working for Skywest? Stop thinking of just yourself for a second. There is more than one way to skin a cat and make sure all the pilots are not whipsawed.

Nevets
03-10-2014, 09:29 PM
Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.




Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.

And I may be ok with that except for when our CEO wants me to pay for his disgusting whipsaw.

XJ can't handle the flying it currently has, performance is terrible.

Thanks to bad Inc management.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets



Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.




Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!

Why are you so happy taking advantage and for granted things that thousands in our profession care enough about to actually put their money where their mouth is? Leech much?

535 Herndon Parkway
P. O. Box 1169
Herndon, VA 20172

Address it to those who you shamelessly take advantage of.


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets


Quote:





Originally Posted by JustAMushroom


Quote:





Originally Posted by Nevets





You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.




When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.

No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.




I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.

Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.

Wake up


Quote:





Originally Posted by andreas500


Quote:





Originally Posted by HermannGraf


...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.




The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.




Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.




Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.

What? Unionizing doesn't mean bad things happen. Look at SWA. All their employees are unionized and all of them are happy and their company is profitable. Who is saying ANYTHING about merging lists? That's very self-centered anyway. Inc can save money by making it one airline with multiple certificates (like RAH) and keep lists separate. This idea was mentioned to JA but he is the greedy one.


Quote:





Originally Posted by ross9238


Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.

Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.

Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?

Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.





Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.

Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.

Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.

I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.

You are so ignorant on so many points, it's sad.

Those CPAs? Negotiated by Inc. including the ASA CPA with DAL which had the second lowest clause kick in just as inc bought XJT. Both of those loser CPAs are products of our CEO.

Who has said anything about ALPA or merging lists?

And if you did listed to the conference call, you would know that a VAST majority of the flight cancellations happened on the XJT side because our larger operation operates predominantly in the east coast and Midwest where traffic and weather hit the most. And our western most base, the same DEN airport you say closes all but two runways.

And RJs with 40,000+ cycles? XJT has more of them and management does a poor job of maintaining them.

Also, regardless of us being on the chopping block, it's a FACT that you do ride coat tails. I don't know why you mentioned the two in the same sentence since one has nothing to do with the other.

About the only thing you said that is spot on is that we are both the same. Yet you do nothing! You won't engage. We are both prisoners in the same jail but the warden favors you. So of course you don't want anything to change. Thank you for being a fellow human being just trying to take care of our families.

Lastly, would you take a pay cut while your CEO gives himself thousands of shares of stock while paying for two of everything to run two airlines in order to be able to pit you against his other employees just so that he can be a little richer than he is? It doesn't even matter that the savings won't make up the difference in the loses they created with their CPAs. It's the principle that they want you to take a pay cut in order to perpetuate a disgusting immoral whipsaw business model. Shameful...


Quote:





Originally Posted by Electra


Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.

Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.

Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.

I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.





Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.

You guys don't get it. Who made these loser deals? It was our CEO. Why do you keep blaming us pilots for what our CEO has done?

ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.

Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News

You can't be this naive. XJT had a money making CPA with cal for 205 aircraft until Skywest whipsawed us with their pilots. The loses where all from branded and charter. The loses came exclusively from that side. The cal side of the operation was profitable. Once branded was shut down, and cal parked the 30 135s, XJT got the CPA with UAL for 22 aircraft. The others would've been given to CHQ like cal originally wanted to and the loses would've stopped. But in came JA with his whipsaw. Skywest broke it and now owns it.


Quote:





Originally Posted by buddies8


well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.




Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.

Who is saying anything about working for Skywest? Stop thinking of just yourself for a second. There is more than one way to skin a cat and make sure all the pilots are not whipsawed.


Quote:





Originally Posted by buddies8


well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.




Well for sure they didn't think they would get a bunch of whiny pilots who were going to blame all their inadequacies on SkyWest. Thanks for posting the article, because now even you admit all the excuses blaming SkyWest for why you guys are unprofitable is complete crap.

Yes the financial problems might not necessarily be linked to the employees, but the bad attitudes and poor performance can be. You guys still have a job to do and its to show up to work, on-time, and to perform that job to the best of your ability. Quit playing the blame game. Performance has been abysmal and its nobody fault but your own. Not SkyWest's, not the poor contracts, it's yours. Why don't you guys as a work group step up to the plate and do your part to turn it all around??? Instead you want to sit on these forums and blame SkyWest.

You honestly think that we are tanking this place? Who the hell told you that? We show up to work and do our job just as we did under the green lantern and jr before that. This place has gone down hill because inc management wanted to do EVERYTHING their own way instead of taking the best of both. To this day, they still can't pay us properly. Almost all aircraft have MELs, they have no clue what to do during IROPs, they don't know where we are, can't book DH or hotels, cancel flights while the whole crew are IN THE AIRPLANE! When telling them, they say we don't have the big picture, fine. That is just but a minuscule sample of things that have gone downhill since the purchase. Things that we never had problems with before. Half the CRJ fleet didn't get the database updated! These things happen all the time and us crew members are always picking up the slack calling people to try to fix everyone else's mistakes. It's not funny anymore. It's getting dangerous. What you hear from us is what you hear from people who once had pride in where they work. Management has managed to take that away by their poor performance.

Who the hell is telling you guys these things? Trust me, we are the same pilot group when we were the envy of operational performance. Of course that was under competent leadership of Bethune and his disciples.

As for the contracts, that is wholly Inc's fault. No way to put that blame on anyone else other than Inc.

DD214
03-11-2014, 03:40 AM
We Get it YOU HATE Skywest.

XJT Pilot
03-11-2014, 04:04 AM
You guys Can argue till you turn blue in the face about SKY and XJT but the reality is undisputable, SKY made their bed and now UAL is eating them their lunch. This was the only way to keep control of there feed without attracting the SEC's attention for screwing all the XJT shareholders out of their money, and that gentlemen is what is going on PERIOD!

You think UAL was gonna allow XJT to go under your a fool!

PerpetualFlyer
03-11-2014, 06:36 AM
Lol, wow Nevets. You really need to calm down, drink a beer, and get laid! You stressed way too much and spent way too much time responding to all of that!

Nevets
03-13-2014, 09:58 AM
We Get it YOU HATE Skywest.

I said it already but I don't hate Skywest. I don't like what it's become but I certainly don't like our CEO and his immoral business practice. Hate is a very strong word.

Lol, wow Nevets. You really need to calm down, drink a beer, and get laid! You stressed way too much and spent way too much time responding to all of that!

True, the 15 minutes I spend replying was too much time. Not stressed, just disgusted with someone using his employees against themselves. And almost as disgusted with people not being appalled by it.

cencal83406
03-13-2014, 10:17 AM
Lol. All this bickering over mainline flying.

When the unionized majors take their flying back, Skywest will shrink too.

Those aren't "your" slots in SFO.

spuzzyair
03-13-2014, 11:21 AM
Lol. All this bickering over mainline flying.

When the unionized majors take their flying back, Skywest will shrink too.

Those aren't "your" slots in SFO.

United isn't taking their flying back, they are giving more mainline routes to SkyWest/Mesa with the 175...