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View Full Version : A little advise from a TWAer


TWA4ME
06-23-2014, 07:02 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....


SewerPipeDvr
06-23-2014, 07:17 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....
ADVICE. Not advise. "A little advice.."

chignutsak
06-23-2014, 07:19 AM
Wow, nice second post!


eaglefly
06-23-2014, 07:29 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....

I don't see how this can happen. The MOU requires a "McCaskill-Bond" process and if negotiations fail, then arbitration decides. To say what you imply will occur, is basically saying there is no such thing as McCaskill-Bond. The critical aspect is NOT the presence of two unions, it's the assurance of a process whereby ALL parties have the opportunity to negotiate and should that fail, to present their positions to neutral arbitrators.

No rational person wants to see one side.........ANY SIDE control the others or muzzle their ability to bargain and/or argue their position in arbitration. I understand your anger and dissent, but the claim above can only be seen as unnecessarily inflammatory.

TWA4ME
06-23-2014, 07:32 AM
Yup but guess what? McCaskill-Bond DOES NOT APPLY under "single carrier status"--that is why APA is fighting for it. You better do you homework...

Bad-Andy
06-23-2014, 08:14 AM
Wow, such bombastic talk -- from every side. "The Enemy." Really????

Merriam-Webster defines "enemy" as:
: someone who hates another : someone who attacks or tries to harm another
: something that harms or threatens someone or something
: a group of people (such as a nation) against whom another group is fighting a war

While all this antagonistic language certainly stirs emotion, it really does not do anything else constructive... I'm fairly certain that I am not engaged in armed struggle (war) with the APA. I'm also fairly certain that APA is not hell-bent on hurting me. Finally, I do not think that APA is "attacking" or "attempting to harm" me.

Certainly they are looking to best represent their own members (which, at the moment, does not include me). However, everyone keeps forgetting one very important point -- once they become our CBA, they IMMEDIATELY have a duty to fairly represent all of their members (including me). As long as they are not our CBA, they have no such duty. Thus, if they administer a beating while separate CBA's, we have no recourse. Their latest proposal seems to be a not bad deal -- we get our own representation while they then acquire a legal obligation to look out for all their members.

Maybe we should also tone down the emotion-based rhetoric and work to find the "best" solution (using rational methods and empirical data) that will convince the arbitrators to a fair solution. We can throw rocks and call names all day on the internet, but will that really accomplish anything???

APA may be my adversary or opponent. But, "enemy?" Please...

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 08:42 AM
Yup but guess what? McCaskill-Bond DOES NOT APPLY under "single carrier status"--that is why APA is fighting for it. You better do you homework...

I don't think you've done yours and are fueled by emotion and the compulsion to dance into perpetuity with an old skeleton. M-B DOES NOT REQUIRE two unions and the MOU specifically does two things. First, it plans for the dissolution of USAPA prior to SLI and second, even with that, it describes the SLI to proceed as per McCaskill-Bond. That implies that for a "fair and equitable" process to occur, ALL pre-merger parties should have the ability negotiate and arbitrate as per M-B and that should APA fail to ensure that, they are subject to jeopardy under DFR. Considering that it will almost certainly be neutral arbitrators deciding the SLI, even if they were handed the three (preferably two) lists and given no positions, they could make whatever decision they'd need to and APA wouldn't and couldn't alter that.

Throwing a wrench in this SLI won't change the past and if the spirit and intent of the MOU is followed, this SLI won't put another skeleton next to the once you're presently dancing with.

TWA4ME
06-23-2014, 08:52 AM
Let's rehash the topic in a year from now. I hope I'm wrong and you get a fair deal... best of luck!

cactiboss
06-23-2014, 09:16 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....
Except there is a group of pilots that is much, much worse than the APA, the usairways east pilots. I'll take my chances with a union that promises to give me a fair shake even if they are lying vs. one that guarantees they will harm me. BTW have you no clue to what the east pilots have done?

CaptainBigWood
06-23-2014, 09:37 AM
Well said TWA. Everyone thinks they deserve better than DOH.
I expect much less, so the longer this gets delayed the better.
Cacti, you are a great source of amusement, you are 757 International Captain with a 1998 hire. You expect APA to merge you in with there 1990 hire captains.
LOL

Mesabah
06-23-2014, 09:44 AM
To go around McCaskill-Bond, the APA would need the support of management. In my opinion, there is too much money on the line for management to take sides. My guess is you will go to arbitration, and get an equipment merger exactly like every other merger.

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 09:46 AM
Let's rehash the topic in a year from now. I hope I'm wrong and you get a fair deal... best of luck!

I hope everyone gets a "fair" deal, but that's not going to happen because the achievement of that subjective concept depends on ones expectations. I know on the AA side expectations vary pretty wildly as plenty on this side have trust issues with APA too and others are convinced exactly how it will go down (which is kinda ridiculous considering the fickleness of arbitrators). The PROCESS is all that can be controlled to the fair and equitable ideal, if arbitrated the result is anyone's guess.

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 09:50 AM
To go around McCaskill-Bond, the APA would need the support of management. In my opinion, there is too much money on the line for management to take sides. My guess is you will go to arbitration, and get an equipment merger exactly like every other merger.

Well, according to the MOU, management is required to remain neutral regarding actual order of the list.

Mesabah
06-23-2014, 09:52 AM
Well, according to the MOU, management is required to remain neutral regarding actual order of the list.
You will get an equipment merger, trust me, I have a lot of experience in this. The arbitrator may feel differently, but is obligated to go with precedent.

ShyGuy
06-23-2014, 09:58 AM
I don't see how this can happen. The MOU requires a "McCaskill-Bond" process and if negotiations fail, then arbitration decides. To say what you imply will occur, is basically saying there is no such thing as McCaskill-Bond. The critical aspect is NOT the presence of two unions, it's the assurance of a process whereby ALL parties have the opportunity to negotiate and should that fail, to present their positions to neutral arbitrators.

Ask Airtran pilots how that worked out for them...

PurpleTurtle
06-23-2014, 10:10 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....

The APA and USAPA both know that the key is to tie it up in the courts indefinitely... and to listen to the melodious west whining as the DOH clock tics along.:cool:

cactiboss
06-23-2014, 10:12 AM
Well said TWA. Everyone thinks they deserve better than DOH.
I expect much less, so the longer this gets delayed the better.
Cacti, you are a great source of amusement, you are 757 International Captain with a 1998 hire. You expect APA to merge you in with there 1990 hire captains.
LOL
The point is I was a 757 captain when we merged, usapa's doh proposal steals my career and that of every west pilots while the Nic keeps everyone in the seats they brought. Newsflash, we merged in 2005.

Sliceback
06-23-2014, 10:58 AM
The NIC keeps you in the seats you "brought"? Does it limit, or prohibit, the west from moving into US w/b's?

Sliceback
06-23-2014, 11:10 AM
The 'winning' side always it was fair. The 'losing' side always says it wasn't.

And then 'winners' say their merger agreement was fair but the other 'winners ' were unfair? Priceless.

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 11:25 AM
Ask Airtran pilots how that worked out for them...

A perfect example of just how every merger and SLI is different and thus unpredictable. To listen to many Usapains, they think that this merger/SLI is or should be a mimic of the UAL/CAL deal and this merger SLI is just as different from theirs as is SWA/AT is from ours.

Was the SWA/AT SLI negotiated or arbitrated ?

Mesabah
06-23-2014, 11:32 AM
Was the SWA/AT SLI negotiated or arbitrated ?It was a management take it or leave it deal, nothing like what you guys have.

You guys are going through what I call the, "liability absolution process". Both your union's merger reps get together, and stage a fake fight that has to be settled by outside forces; In the future, this will absolve the union from any DFR legal liability.

cactiboss
06-23-2014, 11:35 AM
The NIC keeps you in the seats you "brought"? Does it limit, or prohibit, the west from moving into US w/b's?
That was addressed in the Nic, you had 200 heavy captains and got the top 517 positions to account for the fo's. Let me guess, you expect to exclude the west from all heavies forever? Kind of like the usair guys were excluded from the piedmont heavies? Scumbag.

R57 relay
06-23-2014, 11:36 AM
The NIC keeps you in the seats you "brought"? Does it limit, or prohibit, the west from moving into US w/b's?

No, and provided pilots in cacti's seniority range massive windfalls moving forward.

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/AAAMergerCommitteeToECMay2007.pdf

You were right about the winning/losing sides. Most on each side will judge the outcome of the SLI based on how THEY do, and will then assign it a fairness value and go about building a supporting case.

Someone mentioned AirTran. I don't know much about it, but I think they gave up their rights, even if they had a gun to their heads. US pilots didn't do that. I do think we will end up in arbitration, it would be the boldest move ever for the APA to try and go as far as forcing a scheme post SCS. But how and what events take place before...who knows. It's looking like a longer and bumpier ride than I originally thought

R57 relay
06-23-2014, 11:40 AM
That was addressed in the Nic, you had 200 heavy captains and got the top 517 positions to account for the fo's. Let me guess, you expect to exclude the west from all heavies forever? Kind of like the usair guys were excluded from the piedmont heavies? Scumbag.

I might be wrong, but I never thought sliceback was a US pilot. But hey, if they don't see eye-to-eye with you then they are a scumbag, right?

cactiboss
06-23-2014, 11:42 AM
I might be wrong, but I never thought sliceback was a US pilot. But hey, if they don't see eye-to-eye with you then they are a scumbag, right?

Yup, by default if their an eastie.

GrapeNuts
06-23-2014, 11:46 AM
R57 just can't help himself... The resident hijacker strikes again.

R57 relay
06-23-2014, 11:49 AM
R57 just can't help himself... The resident hijacker strikes again.

Actually no, I was responding to a post from someone else, Nuts.

7576FO
06-23-2014, 11:55 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....


You're in the left seat 767. You kept your seat and got a pay raise. Hard for me to feel sorry for you.

The arbitrator will look at UAL/CAL.

PurpleTurtle
06-23-2014, 12:02 PM
It was a management take it or leave it deal, nothing like what you guys have.

You guys are going through what I call the, "liability absolution process". Both your union's merger reps get together, and stage a fake fight that has to be settled by outside forces; In the future, this will absolve the union from any DFR legal liability.

I am not sure about how "fake" it is, but you can be sure since a fight causes a delay and DOH by default, the APA and USAPA are more than satisfied with a fight, whether it is fake or real. I.e. If there were no real fight, then a fake one would be created. :D On the other hand, if the APA and USAPA had something to gain by getting this over with already, they would probably do so.

cactiboss
06-23-2014, 03:18 PM
BTW, this from APA today:

Seniority Integration Protocol: The Facts


To be blunt, USAPA's version of events is fiction. USAPA leadership specifically and directly solicited this latest protocol proposal from the Seniority Integration Committee. USAPA's merger counsel was also briefed on the likely content of the protocol document several days before receipt. USAPA's abject failure to communicate these facts erodes the very foundation of trust necessary for any further negotiations. It is now apparent to us, just as it was to Judge Silver in the Addington v. USAPA DFR decision, that USAPA is using these tactics, including reneging on its bargain under the MOU and litigating the McCaskill-Bond process in court, with the express goal of delaying the NMB single-carrier finding.

PurpleTurtle
06-23-2014, 03:41 PM
BTW, this from APA today:

The APA is a defendant in a federal lawsuit and is pumping sunshine. I'm impressed with how they can parse words.

"APA also has a duty to guarantee a process that will give the West pilots a fair opportunity to make their case in arbitration."

Do you think they view a West Merger Committee as a necessary element of a fair process?

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 04:08 PM
BTW, this from APA today:

It doesn't matter what APA says now. The above post should reinforce to all that the disciples of USAPA will believe nothing from anyone except that which is proclaimed from the throne of the Philacharlotonian junta of the planet USAPA. Should a judge deny them their injunction, I would expect he will simply be declared a corrupt agent of APA and it wouldn't surprise me then if USAPA held a pitchfork party, sacrificed a goat and attempt a forced coup of Ft. O'Connell. :rolleyes:

It's obvious, USAPA's primary goal is to muzzle the West, which is pure Irony because they cry to the Heavens complaining APA is out to do to them what they are trying to do to the West.

PurpleTurtle
06-23-2014, 04:16 PM
..

It's obvious, USAPA's primary goal is to muzzle the West...

That is not true. That is absolutely not true. USAPA has no issue at all with the West pilots exercising every legal avenue they have. :cool:

The APA should be as gracious...

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 04:22 PM
That is not true. That is absolutely not true. USAPA has no issue at all with the West pilots exercising every legal avenue they have. :cool:

The APA should be as gracious...

Baloney. If that were true, they'd offer the West their own reps to argue whatever position they choose. Didn't they slam the door on them when they requested the ability to offer the Nic up for consideration during the pre negotiation protocol phase forcing them to vacate the USAPA MC ?

Revisionist history with a dash of delusion. Might I suggest some tea and thorazine to salve the mind ? :rolleyes:

PurpleTurtle
06-23-2014, 04:35 PM
Baloney. If that were true, they'd offer the West their own reps to argue whatever position they choose. Didn't they slam the door on them when they requested the ability to offer the Nic up for consideration during the pre negotiation protocol phase forcing them to vacate the USAPA MC ?

Revisionist history with a dash of delusion. Might I suggest some tea and thorazine to salve the mind ? :rolleyes:

USAPA has no issue at all with the West pilots exercising every legal avenue they have.

If you want to say that is not true, then provide the legal venues the West are entitled to, and which USAPA is denying them.

And while you are at it, admit why you care so much about this to know that the West members of the merger committee resigned (and even why they did). How many APA pilots pride themselves on knowing so much about the committee members of another union? :cool:

Is your name Jerry Glass? :D

eaglefly
06-23-2014, 05:12 PM
USAPA has no issue at all with the West pilots exercising every legal avenue they have.

You're right, this statement isn't baloney, it's........

If you want to say that is not true, then provide the legal venues the West are entitled to, and which USAPA is denying them.

....malarkey. You (and apparently USAPA) are hiding behind a "legality" argument, yet by the same token, the MOU calls for USAPA to be rendered legally moot and USAPA agreed to it, but now is reneging. Then you (and apparently them) use the same argument to muzzle the West that you demand recognizes USAPA.

USAPA wants to muzzle the West, plain and simple. Always has, always will.

And while you are at it, admit why you care so much about this to know that the West members of the merger committee resigned (and even why they did). How many APA pilots pride themselves on knowing so much about the committee members of another union?

You're just deflecting the reality of what USAPA did. I bring that up because that is simply a demonstration of what USAPA still is attempting to do, now with AA pilots as collateral damage. Snort, puff, hem and haw all you want, we both know what I'm talking about. I guess you assume most pilots here aren't particularly intelligent in wading through B.S. when they see it, eh ?

Is your name Jerry Glass? :D

No, but I'll give you a clue; Years ago, I hooked up with Stifler's mom. :p

FreighterGuyNow
06-24-2014, 04:22 AM
USAir East/West you better get your **** together because APA is the enemy. Take a look at the TWA deal--expect that if not worse. If you do better than consider yourselves lucky....

Any ex TWA willing to post exactly how much you collected in the DFR suit ?

My math says $10,000 but all I've got are media stories.

crzipilot
06-24-2014, 04:46 AM
Eagle,

You happily point that the MOU is supposed to lead to USAPA becoming a moot point.

So why don't you listen to the judges that have stated, time and time again that the NIC is moot? That, as others have pointed out, the way ALPA structured it, the only way for the NIC to become in effect, was a JCBA between East and West. With that never going to happen, the NIC is there but sits on a shelf unused.

Using your premise, the TWA folks should get another bite at the apple, like how the FA's are attempting now. Why should they not? Could it be possibly because their seniority integration has been memorialized withing a CBA and has been in use? Whereas the NIC has NEVER been memorialized within a CBA and never will be in the future.

Polarfr8dog
06-24-2014, 05:58 AM
Any ex TWA willing to post exactly how much you collected in the DFR suit ?

My math says $10,000 but all I've got are media stories.

Just like most media stories with an aviation topic it's far from true. Not even close on the value. The three that brought on the lawsuit are going to get some serious cash, well into the six figures plus reimbursement of expenses. The rest of us are going to see varying amounts all the way down to just a couple hundred bucks.

eaglefly
06-24-2014, 06:18 AM
Eagle,

You happily point that the MOU is supposed to lead to USAPA becoming a moot point.

Just as happily as many Usapians here point out that the West has no legal right to represent themselves or their interests or claim that the MOU says things it doesn't.

So why don't you listen to the judges that have stated, time and time again that the NIC is moot? That, as others have pointed out, the way ALPA structured it, the only way for the NIC to become in effect, was a JCBA between East and West. With that never going to happen, the NIC is there but sits on a shelf unused.

I haven't interpreted that judges have renedered the Nic moot, only that the dispute was considered unripe due to USAPA not imposing something other then the Nic. Your above statement is simply just another erroneous and self-serving interpretation. Personally, I don't care about the Nic as I have no control over that.

Using your premise, the TWA folks should get another bite at the apple, like how the FA's are attempting now. Why should they not? Could it be possibly because their seniority integration has been memorialized withing a CBA and has been in use? Whereas the NIC has NEVER been memorialized within a CBA and never will be in the future.

The TWA have been attempting another bite at the apple for years, where you been brutha ? I agree with you on the Nic not being used in its pure form, but I think the West has a right to a fair shot at arguing for it, if they so choose. That the difference between us, you (and USAPA) seek exclusion and I (and it appears APA) seek INCLUSION. Yet, to you Usapians, it's everyone else that has dubious motives despite the obvious representations. IMO, the ex-TWA'ers should be free to attempt whatever they choose.

Parking Brake
07-01-2014, 05:09 AM
I think it funny that APA is somehow now the big boogyman when they are really so tenderfooted in tiptoeing around any potential lawsuit.

Red/Blue - East/West: everybody has their expectations of being king of the dung hill...

So whatever happened to acceptance? Or are your expectations just going to get dashed into long-term resentments and you poison yourself with bitterness forever?

Hey, I go to work, they pay me well, and I get to do amazing things and help my family.

Relax. It's all going to happen and it's going to take years to sort it all out.

alfaromeo
07-01-2014, 05:37 AM
Just like most media stories with an aviation topic it's far from true. Not even close on the value. The three that brought on the lawsuit are going to get some serious cash, well into the six figures plus reimbursement of expenses. The rest of us are going to see varying amounts all the way down to just a couple hundred bucks.

Now you see the true colors of those liars that brought that lawsuit. As soon as they could they grabbed up the cash for themselves and the lawyers and all the rest of the TWA pilots are left with nothing.

thefoxsays
07-12-2014, 03:20 PM
Sounds like the new "American" will be awesome.

TXHillCountry
07-22-2014, 05:53 PM
Sounds like the new "American" will be awesome.

The most awesome place to be at the "New" AAL is retired. No fences, no seniority, no uniforms.

It's a lot like the monkeys at the zoo flinging poo. Watching from afar is amusing and much less smelly. This East/West/APA ménage a trois is going to make the APA\TWA goat rope look like a walk in the park.

kingairip
07-22-2014, 06:37 PM
The most awesome place to be at the "New" AAL is retired. No fences, no seniority, no uniforms.

It's a lot like the monkeys at the zoo flinging poo. Watching from afar is amusing and much less smelly. This East/West/APA ménage a trois is going to make the APATWA goat rope look like a walk in the park.

It's not going to be as bad as you think (maybe even hope) it will be. More than half of the East will be gone in 10 years along with half of the APA. The resultant progression will make any bitter pill easier to swallow for those that remain.

Thanks for trying to bring everyone down though!