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View Full Version : Possible Training Shake Up??????


JumpersAway79
07-02-2014, 11:56 AM
The latest that I'm hearing is that R.Skinner is out and will be replaced as Head of flight training at the new American. I was hoping to see a USAirways guy affect some possitive change in the training culture. I guess he ruffled some feathers along the way. Just curious if anyone has heard this also to confirm it, and what the general thoughts are.......


SilverandSore
07-02-2014, 12:08 PM
Hopefully this means we get to go back to long checklists that include such things as 'Seats...adjusted, Seatbelts...on' and get rid of flows. Let's make this job harder. I'm cool with that.

The Drizzle
07-02-2014, 12:11 PM
Maybe we can work in some more salutes too. Yeah, that's the ticket!


Packrat
07-02-2014, 12:23 PM
AA MD-80 checklists are ridiculous.

450knotOffice
07-02-2014, 12:27 PM
You guys are constantly complaining about EVERYTHING at AA. Just so you know, the fleet managers are the ones who dictate the procedures and checklists, not the training department. Training simply, uh, trains.

Fyi, the AA Airbus checklist from beginning to end is a total of ONE page (two sides if you fold it). Additionally, the cockpit philosophy is of FLOWS. Yes, even at big, bad AA (where you guys think we can do no right).

The 737 checklist is a bit longer, but most of it is the Before Start and Shutdown, none of which have anything inane like "seatbelts - on" or "seats - adjusted".

Jeez guys. Chill out about AA.

JumpersAway79
07-02-2014, 12:53 PM
Guess who came up with your Airbus checklist.......and who came up with the MD88 checklist. Relax 450....not ripping into AA, just curious why the change and a confirmation.

7576FO
07-02-2014, 02:55 PM
The latest that I'm hearing is that R.Skinner is out and will be replaced as Head of flight training at the new American. I was hoping to see a USAirways guy affect some possitive change in the training culture. I guess he ruffled some feathers along the way. Just curious if anyone has heard this also to confirm it, and what the general thoughts are.......


He was promoted to Managing Dir of Flt at HDQ's and responsible for how Regional' s interact and train, hire and replacements.


As we work to restore American to greatness, we’re focused on several areas of the operation. One area in which we want to be industry leaders is pilot recruitment. And with the expansion of our regional family to include a larger number of wholly owned carriers, we see the relationship between the regional carriers and the mainline operation becoming increasingly important. To be the best, we want to hire and train the best, and position the mainline operation for success by coordinating efforts for pilot recruitment, hiring and training.

To help achieve this goal, Captain Bob Skinner will take on a new role, reporting directly to me, with a primary focus on creating ways to ensure that our wholly owned regional carriers continue to have the exceptional candidate pool we’ve experienced thus far. Captain Skinner will also work closely with each of our regional carriers to ensure our pilots are fully prepared to successfully transition to the new American when they are offered new hire positions.

Captain Skinner’s extensive training experience and overall passion for bringing new pilots into the industry will position American Airlines as a driving force in addressing and overcoming this industry challenge. In this new role, he will be uniquely positioned to help us maintain a steady supply of highly-skilled and customer-focused pilots.

Please join me in congratulating Bob and welcoming him to our team.

cactiboss
07-02-2014, 03:31 PM
Hopefully this means we get to go back to long checklists that include such things as 'Seats...adjusted, Seatbelts...on' and get rid of flows. Let's make this job harder. I'm cool with that.

Funny, the wests checklists doubled when skinner showed up, beasties thought "flow" was their wife's special time and fought the concept almost as hard as the call sign.

PurpleTurtle
07-02-2014, 03:51 PM
Funny, the wests checklists doubled when skinner showed up, beasties thought "flow" was their wife's special time and fought the concept almost as hard as the call sign.

Some of the West posters have been crowing about Capt Skinner being fired. I for one am happy to see he was promoted, again. :cool:

Or maybe I'm just happy to see west posters wrong, again. :D

drinksonme
07-02-2014, 04:16 PM
Some of the West posters have been crowing about Capt Skinner being fired. I for one am happy to see he was promoted, again. :cool:

Or maybe I'm just happy to see west posters wrong, again. :D

That's strange, cause a lot of the East CA I have flow with do not care for him. Guess it not just a West thing, but go ahead and make this thread an East/West battle too....and we are off.

R57 relay
07-02-2014, 05:33 PM
but go ahead and make this thread an East/West battle too....and we are off.

I think credit for that goes to cacti. He once again spreads urban legend. US had flows prior to the merger, we just followed them up with more and/or longer checklists.

As for RS, I gave him mixed reviews.

nwa757
07-02-2014, 07:36 PM
You guys are constantly complaining about EVERYTHING at AA. Just so you know, the fleet managers are the ones who dictate the procedures and checklists, not the training department. Training simply, uh, trains.

Fyi, the AA Airbus checklist from beginning to end is a total of ONE page (two sides if you fold it). Additionally, the cockpit philosophy is of FLOWS. Yes, even at big, bad AA (where you guys think we can do no right).

The 737 checklist is a bit longer, but most of it is the Before Start and Shutdown, none of which have anything inane like "seatbelts - on" or "seats - adjusted".

Jeez guys. Chill out about AA.

You do know the AA Airbus procedures and checklists were all taken from US right? Thats why they are smart, short and flow efficiently. AA's bus program got off to a bad start until the merger was announced.

I truly hope this move doesn't put us further back in time. The US model of threat and error management is rock solid and instilled a great flight ops culture IMO. I hope this isnt slowly taken apart.

EMBFlyer
07-02-2014, 07:44 PM
Cacti will most likely dispute this and tell you otherwise because, well, it's cacti.

The US TEM program and AQP program have been used as a model for a lot of other airlines. After the 90s, we got our stuff together and I have to say it's probably one of the best training programs I've been through. I hope after SOC, someone realized this, but I feel ancestry worship will win out.

cactiboss
07-02-2014, 07:48 PM
I think credit for that goes to cacti. He once again spreads urban legend. US had flows prior to the merger, we just followed them up with more and/or longer checklists.

As for RS, I gave him mixed reviews.

Whatever numbnuts, the FAA held up the America west airbus checklist as the model of the industry, skinner told us we would get itback after the east "got it", that was 9 years ago and we still have "verify" issue.

PurpleTurtle
07-02-2014, 08:21 PM
That's strange, cause a lot of the East CA I have flow with do not care for him. Guess it not just a West thing, but go ahead and make this thread an East/West battle too....and we are off.

I didn't hear any East Captains saying he was fired. :).... It's not an East West thing... It's a being wrong thing. :D

450knotOffice
07-02-2014, 08:59 PM
You do know the AA Airbus procedures and checklists were all taken from US right? Thats why they are smart, short and flow efficiently. AA's bus program got off to a bad start until the merger was announced.

I truly hope this move doesn't put us further back in time. The US model of threat and error management is rock solid and instilled a great flight ops culture IMO. I hope this isnt slowly taken apart.

I'm not so sure that the flows and checklists weren't more of an Airbus product, than yours, but yes, I'm aware that the Airbus program is a little different than the Boeing programs. However, the Boeing programs are actually pretty good, as far as I'm concerned. With that said, I do whatever I'm told, in terms of procedure. I really don't care one way or the other what we do, as long as it remains safe and reasonably efficient. But, by all means, continue to whine about seemingly EVERYTHING we do at AA, as if US is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What it really comes down to is CHANGE. Most pilots hate it.

spaaks
07-02-2014, 09:09 PM
He was promoted to Managing Dir of Flt at HDQ's and responsible for how Regional' s interact and train, hire and replacements.


As we work to restore American to greatness, we’re focused on several areas of the operation. One area in which we want to be industry leaders is pilot recruitment. And with the expansion of our regional family to include a larger number of wholly owned carriers, we see the relationship between the regional carriers and the mainline operation becoming increasingly important. To be the best, we want to hire and train the best, and position the mainline operation for success by coordinating efforts for pilot recruitment, hiring and training.

To help achieve this goal, Captain Bob Skinner will take on a new role, reporting directly to me, with a primary focus on creating ways to ensure that our wholly owned regional carriers continue to have the exceptional candidate pool we’ve experienced thus far. Captain Skinner will also work closely with each of our regional carriers to ensure our pilots are fully prepared to successfully transition to the new American when they are offered new hire positions.

Captain Skinner’s extensive training experience and overall passion for bringing new pilots into the industry will position American Airlines as a driving force in addressing and overcoming this industry challenge. In this new role, he will be uniquely positioned to help us maintain a steady supply of highly-skilled and customer-focused pilots.

Please join me in congratulating Bob and welcoming him to our team.


ha, good luck

aa73
07-03-2014, 04:29 AM
AA's procedures are not bad or unsafe at all, they're just...well, sometimes kind of old-fashioned. There are a lot of things that are great and some things that are reminiscent of 1950s style procedures..."the F/O shall calculate the fuel every 15 mins during a hold". Like 450kt office says, the cockpit culture works, and everyone non-AA is trying to make a big deal out of it. You will see, once we get everything squared away, that we are mostly the same bunch of knucklehead pilots just doing their jobs that are representative of every major US airline (albeit somewhat cooler and more laid back... :cool:)
Our hope is that our airlines blend in the best of both cockpit cultures and move on from there.

FreighterGuyNow
07-03-2014, 05:22 AM
we see the relationship between the regional carriers and the mainline operation becoming increasingly important. To be the best, we want to hire and train the best, and position the mainline operation for success by coordinating efforts for pilot recruitment, hiring and training.



Accept another round of concessions or be Comair II was a wonderful start.

CptRexKramer
07-03-2014, 05:31 AM
He was promoted to Managing Dir of Flt at HDQ's and responsible for how Regional' s interact and train, hire and replacements.


As we work to restore American to greatness, we’re focused on several areas of the operation. One area in which we want to be industry leaders is pilot recruitment. And with the expansion of our regional family to include a larger number of wholly owned carriers, we see the relationship between the regional carriers and the mainline operation becoming increasingly important. To be the best, we want to hire and train the best, and position the mainline operation for success by coordinating efforts for pilot recruitment, hiring and training.

To help achieve this goal, Captain Bob Skinner will take on a new role, reporting directly to me, with a primary focus on creating ways to ensure that our wholly owned regional carriers continue to have the exceptional candidate pool we’ve experienced thus far. Captain Skinner will also work closely with each of our regional carriers to ensure our pilots are fully prepared to successfully transition to the new American when they are offered new hire positions.

Captain Skinner’s extensive training experience and overall passion for bringing new pilots into the industry will position American Airlines as a driving force in addressing and overcoming this industry challenge. In this new role, he will be uniquely positioned to help us maintain a steady supply of highly-skilled and customer-focused pilots.

Please join me in congratulating Bob and welcoming him to our team.

Just a wag, but I wonder if RS is being put into that role to set up DL/Endeavor style flow agreements with the wholly-owneds. You know, **** off all current pilots by offering direct hire rights only to those hired after the agreement was inked...classy.

Thedude
07-03-2014, 05:44 AM
Whatever numbnuts, the FAA held up the America west airbus checklist as the model of the industry, skinner told us we would get itback after the east "got it", that was 9 years ago and we still have "verify" issue.

Next up, Cactiboss gives credit to the invention of pre-packaged hotdogs.

FreighterGuyNow
07-03-2014, 05:45 AM
Rearranging decks chairs on the Titanic.

The regional pool is the pool of available candidates. Hire away from Delta n Delta will hire away from you. Set up your own flow n you must replenish that group.

Zero sum game.

freezingflyboy
07-03-2014, 06:53 AM
Rearranging decks chairs on the Titanic.

The regional pool is the pool of available candidates. Hire away from Delta n Delta will hire away from you. Set up your own flow n you must replenish that group.

Zero sum game.

Bingo. As a regional puke, I've been having this same thought as I have heard from several involved with hiring at mainline (UAL) that the only real source of qualified applicants they have right now is the express carriers. That got me thinking: If I was American, why not be hiring every United Express and Delta Connection guy I could get my hands on just to make life harder on United and Delta? And vice versa around the circle of the 'Big Four'? I guess if it is a zero sum game, it doesn't matter if you hire your brand's express carriers or the other guy's: everyone ends up short of pilots at the regional level? Maybe that's too 'long game' for most managements to consider? Was an interesting thought experiment at the very least.

Al Czervik
07-03-2014, 07:12 AM
The former VP of flight ops at Airways stated that qualified newhires a few years fown the road is a huge concern.

Bad-Andy
07-03-2014, 10:10 AM
Just a wag, but I wonder if RS is being put into that role to set up DL/Endeavor style flow agreements with the wholly-owneds. You know, **** off all current pilots by offering direct hire rights only to those hired after the agreement was inked...classy.

Or he may be going into that role to start looking at the next evolutionary step in the US airline business -- direct responsibility for regional partners by the major that is selling the seats... The DoT already applied the delay/cancellation rules to both parties in a code-sharing arrangement. The FAA is also finally preparing to act on the 2010 Airline Safety Act. The OIG found that they had not fully complied with its three-year deadline, specifically in the mentoring, leadership, and professional development programs.

Looking at the big picture -- our own staffing needs, the new FAA training requirements (you can count on them being short-sighted and worthless but required immediately), and the impending shortage of candidates for the regional carriers -- it sure looks like AA is trying to develop our own solution and stay ahead of the curve. Maybe this is simply putting the guy with the most experience developing training programs into the position that will redesign the regionals' training programs. By redesigning their programs, he can ensure that they will have the right skills, attitudes, and abilities to succeed in our training. From first-hand conversations, I know Skinner has had some ideas ranging from Ab Initio programs to Collegiate partnerships to flow-throughs in how to stay ahead of the hiring curve and ensure we continue to get the best candidates (except for guys like EMB that slip through the cracks... :p ).

EMBFlyer
07-03-2014, 10:21 AM
(except for guys like EMB that slip through the cracks... :p ).

Love you, too, Andy! :D

FR8TRSH
07-04-2014, 01:15 AM
So I have a question the fact that I never flew an RJ makes me unqualified to fly at a Major? I have almost 8000 hours TT with 5000 TPIC and have been flying all over the world In a wide body. I have had my application In at AA since day one and no call. I know a lot of guys in my same position. It seems everyone wants to go the way of the flow.

DCA A321 FO
07-04-2014, 01:29 AM
So I have a question the fact that I never flew an RJ makes me unqualified to fly at a Major? I have almost 8000 hours TT with 5000 TPIC and have been flying all over the world In a wide body. I have had my application In at AA since day one and no call. I know a lot of guys in my same position. It seems everyone wants to go the way of the flow.

Do you have a college degree? Instructor? What else separates you from the pack?

BTW, your first sentence is kinda strange. Sorry dude, watching Fox News, just put my August bids in, and was bored.

CaptainBigWood
07-04-2014, 03:19 AM
So I have a question the fact that I never flew an RJ makes me unqualified to fly at a Major? I have almost 8000 hours TT with 5000 TPIC and have been flying all over the world In a wide body. I have had my application In at AA since day one and no call. I know a lot of guys in my same position. It seems everyone wants to go the way of the flow.
There are many highly skilled pilots who never get an interview. One reason is HR does most of the hiring. HR has there own agenda which has very little to do with operating an airliner. HR loves college degrees, because they have college degrees. Younger pilots cost less to insure for benefits. RJ pilots seem to due very well in training.
Best of luck with your career.

eaglefly
07-04-2014, 08:00 AM
So I have a question the fact that I never flew an RJ makes me unqualified to fly at a Major? I have almost 8000 hours TT with 5000 TPIC and have been flying all over the world In a wide body. I have had my application In at AA since day one and no call. I know a lot of guys in my same position. It seems everyone wants to go the way of the flow.

AA (and other legacies) have no shortage of qualified applicants and won't for years to come. It's the regionals they need to staff and the carrot is the legacy.

FreighterGuyNow
07-04-2014, 08:08 AM
Do you have a college degree? .

Stumbled across something somewhere about 3.7 being a competitive GPA.

Great, 25 years and not qualified to apply( to my own employer).

MIG15
07-04-2014, 09:08 AM
I got hired at 3 majors with a 2.7 GPA from FSU, the #1 party school 2 out of the 4.5 years I was there . I don't think it matters much. Good luck.

DCA A321 FO
07-04-2014, 12:25 PM
Stumbled across something somewhere about 3.7 being a competitive GPA.

Great, 25 years and not qualified to apply( to my own employer).

I never said it would make you qualified or not, but if the employer says have one, well you need to have one.

crewdawg
07-04-2014, 12:53 PM
I got hired at 3 majors with a 2.7 GPA from FSU, the #1 party school 2 out of the 4.5 years I was there . I don't think it matters much. Good luck.

2!

I was hired at AA recently with <3.0 in aviation, so there's still hope.

Skubajet
07-04-2014, 01:51 PM
AA (and other legacies) have no shortage of qualified applicants and won't for years to come. It's the regionals they need to staff and the carrot is the legacy.

But all these highly qualified applicants with their apps on at AA right now (for example, the gentleman above with the heavy time) are probably not going to be applying at the wholly owneds so they can work for RJ wages and wait to work at AA for several years.

Bad-Andy
07-04-2014, 06:29 PM
But all these highly qualified applicants with their apps on at AA right now (for example, the gentleman above with the heavy time) are probably not going to be applying at the wholly owneds so they can work for RJ wages and wait to work at AA for several years.

No, but guys that might have otherwise left those said regionals for those international heavy jobs might decide to stay knowing that they have a number at American. That guy not leaving for a while saves on additional hiring/training costs at the regional level.

Like eaglefly said, the flow-through isn't aimed at getting qualified applicants at mainline (there are plenty of those, coming from a bunch of different routes -- regionals, non-scheds, military, etc.). It's a carrot meant to attract and keep qualified guys at our regionals. And, if done right, it just might work...

JumpersAway79
07-05-2014, 09:20 AM
From what I'm understanding, the only airline that currently places a high emphasis on grade point average is Delta. USAirways didn't seem to care about my GPA, when I interviewed. Hey, they didn't even ask to see my transcripts!

I honestly have no idea what Skinner is going to capable of, at the express level. Frankly, until pay comes up, there is nothing that improves.

If I was looking at a regional carrier to go to and build time, I think I would stay away from ANY carrier that is wholly owned by a major. This is because the mainline partner, IMHO, would be less likely to hire you away from their own ranks. Go to an independent carrier such that you have an equal shot at applying to all three major carriers without fear of retribution or discrimination.

PurpleTurtle
07-05-2014, 11:28 AM
From what I'm understanding, the only airline that currently places a high emphasis on grade point average is Delta. USAirways didn't seem to care about my GPA, when I interviewed. Hey, they didn't even ask to see my transcripts!

I honestly have no idea what Skinner is going to capable of, at the express level. Frankly, until pay comes up, there is nothing that improves.

If I was looking at a regional carrier to go to and build time, I think I would stay away from ANY carrier that is wholly owned by a major. This is because the mainline partner, IMHO, would be less likely to hire you away from their own ranks. Go to an independent carrier such that you have an equal shot at applying to all three major carriers without fear of retribution or discrimination.

Outstanding advice (especially from someone who didn't have a 4.0 GPA :D)... No sense in going to a wholly in order to get a sunshine promise about how "we love to hire from within."

Show me the money, and quit with the sunshine!