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View Full Version : Logging 135 X-country time.


Flyskiwake
07-09-2014, 01:28 PM
I have a potential opportunity to fly in a 135 King Air operation in the next few months in Louisiana. They will be operating with two pilots, and I'm not sure at this time whether or not insurance is actually requiring two pilots. Either way, the company will be using two pilots.

I'm a low time pilot around 350 TT, but have this opportunity. I will be sitting right seat and then the company will move people over to the left seat once they get their ATP. My biggest questions is how do I log the X-country time? The ATP requires a whole bunch of it and I want to make sure I'm using every flying opportunity to get those hours. We will be flying both in the state and to other states.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, I cannot log SIC time at this time. It's my understanding I can log all the time as total time and mult turbo time. My main question is am I eligible to log the time as x-country time.

I'm no expert at 135 regs, so any help will be appreciated.


aviatorhi
07-09-2014, 02:20 PM
Will you go through training as part of the certificate holders training program, and is an SIC required on the aircraft for operations (ie. no autopilot)? If yes log all the SIC time you fly.

I really don't see the justification for logging time (total time or multi time, etc.) if you are not a required crewmember (PIC/SIC/FE/CRO, etc.) by the type certificate or the regulations being operated under, other than during initial training (and by extension you are required in that situation for the CFI to provide instruction).

For the purposes of an ATP all flights which involve a landing at an airport other than the point of departure are considered cross country. That being said I highly doubt anyone is going to get a King Air to go less than 50 miles on the mainland.

Flyskiwake
07-09-2014, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure on the training yet or autopilot, those details will come soon. I'm trying to get an idea of all scenarios first so I can make the right decision when I get the details.

Are you saying if I'm not a required crew member by insurance or other regs that I shouldn't be logging any total time or multi time at all? It was my understanding I could at least log it as total even if I wasn't logging SIC, PIC, etc.

The big question is can I be logging cross country time with above scenario even of I'm not logging SIC and such.


aviatorhi
07-09-2014, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure on the training yet or autopilot, those details will come soon. I'm trying to get an idea of all scenarios first so I can make the right decision when I get the details.

If you're not trained (under the company's FAA approved Part 135 training program) then you should not even be occupying a pilot seat on revenue flights (Part 135 flights).

Are you saying if I'm not a required crew member by insurance or other regs that I shouldn't be logging any total time or multi time at all? It was my understanding I could at least log it as total even if I wasn't logging SIC, PIC, etc.

Insurance is not what mandates whether you are a required crewmember, the FAA does, via regulation or via type certificate. If you are not required according to either the regulations you are operating under or the type certificate of the aircraft then you are not entitled to the time. I hear a lot about logging total time but not PIC/SIC time, which I consider bogus, it's like me logging time because I was sitting in a jumpseat up front. You're just a passenger at that point.

The big question is can I be logging cross country time with above scenario even of I'm not logging SIC and such.

You log flight time for the flight time you are a required crewmember, this only gets tricky for "cruise relief" pilots on large/long range aircraft, in your situation you are either a passenger or a pilot, not both.

pilot0987
07-09-2014, 05:13 PM
Im guessing this is a cheap way for that company to say they have to pilots up front by having a low timer up front. Just think about this, if that pilot dies or there is an emergency are you going to be able to deal with it, probably not. No offense. Take things in stride and not side step off some offer from a scumbag operation. I would say no to logging any of the time legitimately.

rickair7777
07-10-2014, 09:00 AM
As others have said, unless you recieve 135 training and a checkride, AND the company's OPSPEC requires/allows the use of an SIC then you cannot log SIC.

Logging total time is really meaningless unless you log one or more of these at the same time: PIC, SIC, dual given, or dual received.

Total time is not an actual legal definition, so you can technically and legally log anything you want in that column, including passenger time in first class LAX-NRT. But you cannot legally use that sort of time for any aeronautical experience or currency requirement.

Also employers will consider that sort of time fraudulent if you use it on an application. Even if you don't put it on the app, the fact that you logged it all will raise doubts about your integrity and how you like to skirt the rules.

What's really going on here? Probably the company needs seat-meat for insurance requirements and they may be "allowing" you to believe that the time is loggable and legit experience. It's not.

Will it be helpful experience? Yes. Will it be experience that you can count for ratings and job applications? No. I seriously wouldn't put that crap in my logbook at all.

Toonces
07-10-2014, 11:52 AM
There is already an FAA ruling on this scenario. If you receive 135 training by the company, go through a 135.293, 297, 299, checkride by the authorized check airman, and the opspecs of the company require it, you can log the time. You can log SIC, and you can log PIC when you are manipulating the controls, provided you have your complex/high performance/high altitude endorsement.

For our company, we have a single pilot IFR waiver provided the autopilot is operative. Per the FAA ruling, you can log the time as SIC as long as you don't use the autopilot. Is it a gray area? Maybe, but if you show the ruling and your paperwork to any DPE or the FSDO, I don't see how they would deny you going for your next rating (I.e. ATP).

falcon20pilot
07-10-2014, 01:05 PM
The 2009 decision is below. Although it is pertaining to a CE 525S the rules would be similar for a King Air. If under 135 (and as said above you are trained and checked as a qualified 135 SIC) if you don't use the autopilot you are a required crew member.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/nichols%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Duksrule
08-24-2014, 03:30 PM
For the purposes of an ATP all flights which involve a landing at an airport other than the point of departure are considered cross country. That being said I highly doubt anyone is going to get a King Air to go less than 50 miles on the mainland.



Has this recently changed?

To meet the requirements for the ATP certificate, cross-country time is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure with no requirement for a landing. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(vi)

Beer:30
08-24-2014, 06:04 PM
As others have said, unless you recieve 135 training and a checkride, AND the company's OPSPEC requires/allows the use of an SIC then you cannot log SIC.

Logging total time is really meaningless unless you log one or more of these at the same time: PIC, SIC, dual given, or dual received.

Total time is not an actual legal definition, so you can technically and legally log anything you want in that column, including passenger time in first class LAX-NRT. But you cannot legally use that sort of time for any aeronautical experience or currency requirement.

Also employers will consider that sort of time fraudulent if you use it on an application. Even if you don't put it on the app, the fact that you logged it all will raise doubts about your integrity and how you like to skirt the rules.

What's really going on here? Probably the company needs seat-meat for insurance requirements and they may be "allowing" you to believe that the time is loggable and legit experience. It's not.

Will it be helpful experience? Yes. Will it be experience that you can count for ratings and job applications? No. I seriously wouldn't put that crap in my logbook at all.


^^^this is spot on^^^^^

USMCFLYR
08-24-2014, 06:57 PM
Has this recently changed?

To meet the requirements for the ATP certificate, cross-country time is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure with no requirement for a landing. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(vi)
No...I don't think it has changed.
People are mixing up the requirements been the CPL and the ATP all the time.
I've still taken the most conservative approach when I was figuring up X/C time for my ATP and I still log X/C time only when I've gone more than 50nm and made a landing - but this is done by choice and is more conservative than the FARs allow (not that I am concerned with logging more X/C time other than my own information/record keeping).

flyskiwake - others have covered it very well....but you are getting yourself into a situation here where you can certainly gain experience, but if you log it, you will be setting yourself up for negative consequences for a long time to come when searching for legitimate aviation employment.

web500sjc
08-28-2014, 05:53 AM
Has this recently changed?

To meet the requirements for the ATP certificate, cross-country time is more than 50 nm straight-line distance from the original point of departure with no requirement for a landing. 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(vi)

the general definition of cross country time-


Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

each certificate has added restrictions (in some cases exceptions) to the general XC definition that normally contain some form of 50nm. private, instrument, commercial, and ATP XC are looking for aeronautical experiences- meaning there are tasks in addition the the bare minimum to be accomplished.

Note that 135 time is not a certificate so you can use the general definition "landing at another point navigated to using dead reckoning, etc."



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